Helping clients find healthy relationships (with Phoebe Rogers)

[00:00:00] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers, you're listening to the Mental Work Podcast, your companion to early career psychology. I'm your host, Dr. Bronwyn Milkins. And today we are talking about a great topic and the topic is healthy relationships and more specifically, helping women find healthy relationships. Thanks You could say that relationships is the core of what we do as psychologists and I think that's what makes this topic really interesting and really relevant. And here to help us out is our guest today, Phoebe Rogers. Hi, Phoebe.

[00:00:35] Phoebe: Hi Bronwyn, thank you for having me.

[00:00:38] Bronwyn: It's so lovely to have you. Phoebe, could you please tell listeners who you are and what your non psychology passion is?

[00:00:46] Phoebe: So I'm a clin psych, obviously, and I love helping women find love, that's my passion, but outside of work, maybe see her in the background, that's my Cavoodle, my little puppy, um, Bella. We're a bit obsessed with her and our lives revolve around her, she brings us lots of joy.

[00:01:07] Bronwyn: How old is she?

[00:01:08] Phoebe: Uh, she's two.

[00:01:09] Bronwyn: Wow, amazing. Yeah, I can see this beautiful, is it a photo or a portrait?

[00:01:15] Phoebe: Um, it was a photo and it's been printed.

[00:01:18] Bronwyn: That is so beautiful. She looks like a gorgeous doggo.

[00:01:21] Phoebe: Yeah, she is. She's so sweet. She's like very social and loves to meet people, say hi.

[00:01:26] Bronwyn: Ah, that's so nice. Thank you for sharing that with us and listeners, let me just give you a signpost of what's to come. We're going to talk about how phoebe found herself in this very niche area and we're going to learn about Phoebe's pathways into psychology and how she branched out into different areas of psychology.

We're also going to learn about how to help clients who are looking for healthy relationships and Phoebe does some other things in her work. So she's branched out into online therapy group programs and I'm really curious about why she decided to do that and how she decided to do that. So I hope this is a really good convo.

[00:02:06] Phoebe: I'm looking forward to it.

[00:02:08] Bronwyn: Awesome. So the first thing Phoebe is, as I mentioned, helping women find love is a really niche area. Could you tell us how you got into this area, like your personal and professional journey?

[00:02:21] Phoebe: Sure, it's a bit of an accident, I always say, and a long story, and I didn't think I'd end up here. Um, but essentially I had a period, I was doing clinical work, I got quite burnt out. I came upon another job working with children. I went and did that and I quickly realized, oh my goodness, I need to do a better job and understand the parenting system and the family system and the couple.

And I think what was really underneath all of that was my own relationship struggles. And anyway, so I went and did more study and, you know, ended up working with couples and, you know, still been figuring out my love life and Now it's going pretty nicely and so the professional and the personal have all kind of blended and got me to this point.

[00:03:21] Bronwyn: Wow. Is there a moment when you realized that, Oh gosh, I need to figure this out professionally and personally?

[00:03:28] Phoebe: Um, yeah, I think there were earlier moments and, um, you know, I've had my own mental health stuff and really, um, Advocate for psychs to go to therapy and I think it's made me a better psychologist.

Um, but, life went okay after a period of therapy and then a few years ago, actually not that long ago, I had a pretty awful relationship Breakup, you know, pretty classic woman, over functioning, really burnt out, really exhausted, just not good. overextending myself. And that was it. I went, I literally said, I went no more of this. I'm not doing this to myself. I'm sick of these patterns. I'm sick of being burnt out in love. And that's it.

But that time around I really, I went to schema therapy quite deliberately. I'd only done a little bit of training in it at that point, kind of, um, level one, level two. Yes. And then I'd done like the, there's a schema workshop on your own stuff, the kind of weekend in the Blue Mountains. And I did all of that.

So I kind of knew about schema therapy and I'd been watching some other practitioners from afar. And then I, you know, all the cogs were turned, like, oh my god, this is making sense, fear of abandonment, here we are, and I'm sure that and other schemers were, were driving me, and so this time around a few years ago, um, I found a schema I found a schemer. He did a bit of internal family systems therapist and then I came across Dr Tracey Hunter who's a schema therapist but she was really doing schema coaching for female therapists around their own stuff like self sacrifice and resentment and kind of fear of abandonment and Emotional inhibition and not saying how we feel and being embarrassed by our emotions. And so I was in her group with other female therapists and that was when life really changed actually in a big way.

[00:05:39] Bronwyn: wow. That's huge.

[00:05:41] Phoebe: Yeah, I just think everything she gave us in that group was what I continue to do to be in a healthy relationship and what I continue to pass on to my clients in this model of we are to soothe and take care of ourselves. And then from that place, we know how a healthy relationship feels and then we can seek it and, and bring it in.

[00:06:04] Bronwyn: So it's almost like you were the test subject for what you do now.

[00:06:07] Phoebe: Totally, totally. I just didn't know, but I was like. Oh, like this stuff is really working and, and really working quickly and, you know, I could kind of overcome some anxious attachment stuff and, and soothe myself and kind of date. And then I was like, Oh, I'm actually meeting nice humans. And then here we are. You just practice it and it works. And yeah, it's what I do now.

[00:06:34] Bronwyn: That's so cool. So is the approach that you take in your therapy now, is that a schema based approach?

[00:06:41] Phoebe: Yeah. So it's definitely, so there's lots of attachment stuff and I think attachment theory goes really well with schema therapy. And I knew attachment theory, uh, pretty well from my counseling training and emotionally focused therapy.

But whether I'm seeing an individual or a couple, there's always this inner child bit. So when you're triggered, what's happening inside, how are you feeling, what are you noticing, what schemers are hitting on, you're scared that you're not enough, that you'll be left, that you're a failure, um, you know, are you self sacrificing in order to keep the relationship? And then how you soothe those wounds for yourself is the first thing that you do. And then we do the relational communication work, but it has to be from that grounded, soothed place, ideally. I think that's when couples therapy has a better chance of working, when two individuals kind of get their own stuff, and are responsible for their own stuff, and understand their wounds and how they play out, and then can catch it in the moment.

Yeah.

[00:07:54] Bronwyn: Yeah. No, that sounds really effective. So off air, you mentioned to me that you've done a grad dip in relationship counseling. What do you feel prompted you to do that and what do you feel like you got out of it?

[00:08:09] Phoebe: So what prompted me to do that was the work with children and families. And I was like, my clinical stuff's just not cutting it. And, you know, I really value the clinical training that I got and to relate to children and young people and how to do a really great assessment. But then in terms of those dynamics in the you know, the couple has to come first in order to co parent. And so that was driving me. And, and again, I was still kind of burnt out. And so I thought this would be great for my brain to nourish that part of me and, and, and be. Yeah, kind of nurtured and stimulated again and bring a different lens. So there was kind of lots of things drawing me to that course.

Um, and then I can't remember your second question.

[00:09:16] Bronwyn: Uh, it was, what did you get out of the degree.

[00:09:19] Phoebe: yes, like so much. And I often say to people again, not to devalue the clinical training, but it Like just this new lens, I almost think it was better. I, I just don't think we're trained in, um, our psych degrees to be good counsellors, actually, like to ask really curious questions and empathy and, and validation and to reflect things back and slow down the process. We're given skills, right? I think predominantly. Now we're given CBT and thought challenging and it's...

people just want to relate to their therapist and feel like their therapist truly knows them and is sitting with them and, I always repeat this, but my, my counseling trainer, she said, like, I think our first lecture, our job is to help people expose themselves to themselves. I just went, Oh, like, of course it's, it's awareness and knowledge. You know, that comes first before we tell them what to do. And, and then actually if we help them understand themselves and you know, their patterns and, you know, the system that they're in and you know, one person does this and that's their response. If they get all of that, then they do the work, right? Like that, that's the work. I don't have to give them a CBT skill or an ACT skill. It's people discover their ways through stuff when they're given this lens of curiosity and empathy. It's, yeah, it was just like so obvious, but wow.

[00:10:58] Bronwyn: Yeah, that's such a good quote. And I was thinking the word I was thinking was curiosity because it is approaching themselves with curiosity and being like, Hey, it's interesting. I do that when this happens. I wonder what that's about and what that links to. Yeah. And what my need is in this moment.

[00:11:13] Phoebe: Exactly. And then it's, you know, like there's the individual, but that training was so good for, that's a person in a system, right? Within a family structure, within a couple structure, within a parenting dyad right? So then I can work with all these kinds of layers and see all of those layers and how they play out.

[00:11:35] Bronwyn: Yeah. Which I think is awesome. And I think coming back to it, I think you're right that we don't get much counselling skills. Like having done my five plus one masters in 2017, we did one unit of counselling. I've just finished the coursework for my clinical bridging course, no units or lectures in counselling skills. And on my placements, you're not allowed to do relationship counselling because it's not in the scope of the clinical psychologist.

[00:12:01] Phoebe: So when do you get it? Right. It's, I mean, it's kind of, kind of frustrating. but I think, you know that, and then hopefully you just hold that. And if that feels important to you, go and seek that out.

[00:12:13] Bronwyn: Yeah. No, it sounds like it was really helpful for you to do that degree.

[00:12:17] Phoebe: Yeah, so, so lucky. And actually someone asked, I don't think they offer it anymore.

[00:12:22] Bronwyn: Oh, that's a shame.

[00:12:23] Phoebe: I know they've moved into mediation, but I think there are other trainers who would do like shorter stuff. And I would say like go and do your emotionally focused therapy for couples or individuals or other providers who work systemically. There's still stuff out there.

[00:12:41] Bronwyn: Yeah, totally. Yeah. The next thing that I'm looking into is the Emotionally Focused Therapy because I think at it, it blends really well with Schema and Schema is something I'm interested in is that attachment framework.

[00:12:51] Phoebe: Totally. You just weave them all the time.

[00:12:54] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:12:55] Phoebe: It's beautiful. Yeah, it works so well. And then, yeah, I mean, because attachment stuff is inner child stuff. It all goes together.

[00:13:03] Bronwyn: Yeah. So maybe you could tell us what made you decide to do an online group therapy program? Because I'm wondering if it's related to like burnout prevention as well, or if it was different.

[00:13:17] Phoebe: I think that's the byproduct of it actually is I think burnout prevention for me is doing work that feels meaningful and lights me up inside and whenever I run these groups, I kind of, I leave on a high like I, I I'm so proud of these women and, and so moved and I can see them growing and changing so quickly from, you know, one piece of work, schema and, and inner child.

Um, so it's accidental , um, burnout prevention, and I, I love it. Um, and it, it kind of happened accidentally. I, I, I knew this was the work I love doing. Um, and then I thought, how do I make good use of my time? I started to think about, um, just if listening to business coaches, you know, in private practice there's really this ceiling effect, right? We can just work. For so many hours, we can get a certain amount of income. We're limited in who we can help, right?

And I saw a business coach last year, and I don't know, it just kind of came out of that. I don't remember who prompted it, her or I, but she said, okay, go do it. Like, come back to me next week with the program written. And so I did. And then, you know, it would move into, so the content, like what I would cover week one, two, three, four, five, six. Um, I have a week seven. Um, we start kind of with, you know, the choosing the relationship, what our family taught us, and then we get into schemas.

So it just kind of evolved from that process actually. And I just discovered there was demand for it So, you know, often in these groups, it's half my clients and then it's word of mouth. And I've been able to get enough numbers to kind of run them... this will be my third one since I've started.

[00:15:25] Bronwyn: Wow. Congratulations.

[00:15:26] Phoebe: Thank you.

[00:15:28] Bronwyn: Was that scary, putting yourself out there initially, being like, I'm not sure how this is going to go?

[00:15:33] Phoebe: Yeah. Um, scary in terms of like all this pressure on myself that I had to work. Um, I was lucky I was still working, um, with Tracy Hunter through some of that and she's like, it doesn't matter actually. Like the way we overcome failure is giving it a go and being willing to have a go. Because it matters, it means something to you, that's how you want to spend your time on this planet.

So I had lots of imposter syndrome, um, but I ended up, my first group I had 12 women. So yeah, it was like actually almost too many, but it worked. And then, so every time I know I start to run this group or market it, I get the, what if I didn't get the numbers and, and what if it's not enough or if I'll have to call it off and I haven't, the second round I had seven, um, I start again next week and I have five women.

So it's okay. And I think if you love something and it means something and I can use my other clinical work to support me doing that, and I think the perfectionists in a lot of us probably Like this has to work, it has to make the most money, you know, I used to say it has to beat my hourly rate. It's like, no it doesn't actually. It's okay, like it's just about, um, you know, spreading this message and, and seeing women grow in how they can soothe themselves and choosing healthy relationships and, and then it'll happen. And it is happening.

[00:17:07] Bronwyn: Yeah. So it sounds like you're focusing on the process rather than the outcome.

[00:17:12] Phoebe: Totally! And um, that's hard. It's hard for a lot of us, but it's, you know, the process is the joy giving stuff.

[00:17:20] Bronwyn: That's awesome. I want to ask you about marketing because some psychologists really struggle with this and they've got all sorts of stories about putting themselves out there and also when generally not trained in it unless you come from a marketing background. And so I just wondered whether you had any stories about promoting yourself and whether you got help with that?

[00:17:39] Phoebe: Uh, so much help. I, I'm a good clin psych.

[00:17:43] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:17:44] Phoebe: I'm, I'm, I'm not a good kind of financial person. Like I didn't really understand super or putting money aside for tax. And then, you know, start of my career, I got these huge tax bill and it was, anyway, it was a disaster. So,

[00:18:00] Bronwyn: that's such a common story and I just want to stop there because Any listeners, make sure you set aside money for tax if you are in private practice or you are a contractor. Yeah.

[00:18:09] Phoebe: totally. I was really lucky I hadn't spent it all yet, um, but it's fine. And then so, um, You know, you have your accountant on your team. I have a friend who's been great and kind of said, okay, like leave this amount in your business account. Like this is probably how much you're going to spend. Set up those, um, buckets.

Um, the business coach was great for kind of mapping my money around how much am I making? Like, um, what's she called? Like my survive? How much do I need coming in so I can survive and pay my bills, but what's my thrive rate, you know, if you want holidays and time off and you want to have a house one day or just you factor all of that in and set your eye on that and In terms of marketing myself, still figuring that out.

Um, I think the most important lessons I've learned about marketing, uh, don't be afraid to niche yourself because I, and I've heard that in a lot of places, but it's just been so true for me. If you're a generalist, everyone will come to you, but I think that's a recipe for burnout and just not being happy.

But when people start to know, Oh, you see couples and you've dedicated your career to that, that's who they want to see. And that, that makes sense. So I think figure out what you love. Don't have to figure it out today. Um, but really figure out what you love. Focus on that. Um, don't be afraid to try new things and like don't be afraid to put your rate up every year as well. I could think a lot of us like. You know, we're self sacrificers. We feel sorry for people. We feel guilty. Um, you know, we want to be approachable. We're worried people won't see us. Um, but again, there are so many, put your business hat on, so many business expenses that I have to think about. I have to think about where I want to be. Um, what kind of nourishes and nurtures me, how many clients I can see, um, the cost of living is rising, so it's reasonable to put your rate up, right? And you know, people can make accommodations around that, I think.

[00:20:29] Bronwyn: I agree.

[00:20:31] Phoebe: yeah, and if your clients love you, it'll all be okay, and I think it encourages clients to take value from that work, and you know, if we have to space it out, that's okay, that can still be therapeutic. Yeah. So I, I wasn't a born marketer. I wasn't born financially savvy. Don't be afraid to seek it out.

[00:20:52] Bronwyn: Yeah. No, all really good advice. There is something I'm wondering... I think I saw on your Insta that you're doing the ADHD Her Way podcast. I was just wondering whether you have ADHD.

[00:21:01] Phoebe: Oh yeah. No, no, no. I,

[00:21:04] Bronwyn: okay.

[00:21:05] Phoebe: no, it's just become an accidental interest. Um, I see a lot of, uh, neuro diverse. Couples, because I used to work in the child space and pediatric space with children with autism and ADHD, and then I just think the nature of couples in, in conflict and they're more at risk if one or both have ADHD. I've just realised about 50 percent of my couple's caseload, maybe more, one or both would have ADHD.

[00:21:39] Bronwyn: Yeah, that's really interesting because I'm not a couple therapist, but it's something I have come across just in my individual clients. I've noticed that if you're in a couple where one partner has ADHD, it can be difficult to attune to the other partner. So let's say that difficulty paying attention in conversations and your partner's making for attention and like, Hey, I need like, look at me pay attention to what I'm saying and the ADHD partner will be doing something else that can be very challenging and lead to conflict.

[00:22:11] Phoebe: Totally. It's, it's exactly what I spoke about in this other podcast is, unfortunately, it's not the ADHD person's fault, but all of those symptoms, the distractedness, daydreaming, Forgetfulness... They impact attachment. And then the partner responds with anger, irritability and frustration, which further erodes attachment.

[00:22:35] Bronwyn: Yeah, totally. Yeah. The example was my example as well, because I have ADHD, but I have a great relationship, but I do need to, in recognizing that I do find it hard to pay attention if I'm doing something else, I have to say, okay, I'm going to stop doing the other thing and I'm going to pay full attention to you. You have my full attention. I'm listening to what you are saying, because it is highly irritating when somebody doesn't listen to you.

[00:23:00] Phoebe: I understood I've had partners with, and um, with ADHD and it certainly triggered my own attachment stuff.

[00:23:08] Bronwyn: Of course.

[00:23:09] Phoebe: Um, so I get from both sides and I often kind of bring that into therapy. Um, and thank goodness in your relationship you're, um, responsible and accountable and I think that goes a long way. It's to make that repair. Um, but yes, that extra effort you have to put in. Absolutely.

[00:23:31] Bronwyn: Yeah, it's such a big area these days. So I imagine, yeah, that a lot of people, I mean, it's great that people are coming to therapy to discuss these (issues)

[00:23:40] Phoebe: Yeah. Thank goodness. Cause I think they would just lurk and no one would know about it.

[00:23:44] Bronwyn: Totally. Absolutely. Phoebe, I am wondering if an early career psychologist is listening and this was an area that I struggled with actually, so I'm four years in now as a registered psychologist and because I hadn't received any training in relationships, clients would come to me with their relational problems as an individual and I would find it really hard to know how to help them as an individual.

Um, do you have any hints or tips for helping clients individually improve their relationships?.

[00:24:21] Phoebe: Well, the first part of that is if you can, as a psychologist, just go and get some systemic training. Or that could be emotionally focused therapy, I think does a good job of that. But start bringing the relationship patterns into the room, right? So so there's the, there's the behavioral part, I'm trying to think how to best say this, there's the behavioral part of my relationship is what I say or what I do, and then what my partner says and does.

Right, in response, so there's this behavioral level, but then there's this emotional level, right? How did I feel inside? What was happening in my body? And then are there any clues as to what's happening inside for your partner, right? Because I've often noticed in conflict, conflict with my partner or the debrief, After, partners will start to say things and one example is, gosh, I feel like I can never get it right for you. My partner often says that, so I'm a bit critical. Um, right, so try and bring the whole dynamic into the room because then I think your psychologist has a better, you know, understanding and is more able to help you.

[00:25:36] Bronwyn: Yes. Yeah. No, I agree. Yeah. One thing that I do, which I've found can be effective is I'll ask the client to tell me what happened from the perspective of their partner to try and work that out.

[00:25:48] Phoebe: Oh wow. Oh my gosh, I've never heard anyone do that before.

[00:25:52] Bronwyn: Yeah. I heard on a podcast like a year ago and I was like, I'm gonna take that.

[00:25:55] Phoebe: That's brilliant, because it's saying like, empathy and compassion, and Yeah, and then I think even extending, you know, can you tell me a little bit about your partner's upbringing and any significant events will happen? Cause then you get the, the schema stuff or what their inner child might be experiencing and yeah. That's, that's so important.

[00:26:19] Bronwyn: Cause one thing I'm wary of is I've only done the Gottman relationship training. And one thing I remember from the first part was that there's a risk when working with individual clients, that the therapist can increase negative feelings towards the client partner. Yeah.

[00:26:35] Phoebe: And I'm sure I would have been guilty of that in the past because it's all that, oh my goodness, that sounds so hard for you, and they sound so angry, and you know, do you think you can tolerate that and all these. And now when you bring this attachment lens, an angry, critical, mean partner, they're often anxious. They have their own fear of abandonment or they have shame, right? And then, yeah, all of that's playing out. So yes, I think individual therapists can really demonize a partner. Um, or I've had, you know, um, couples come to me one not that long ago and like the Gottman therapist apparently said, Oh, you're anxiously attached and you're avoidantly attached. You're not going to work.

[00:27:24] Bronwyn: Oh, that's disappointing.

[00:27:27] Phoebe: Yeah. Yeah. That's what they took from that. And so, it's important to get training, isn't it? Really good training.

[00:27:35] Bronwyn: It really is. Cause we can unintentionally have outcomes that we're not trying to have.

[00:27:40] Phoebe: Exactly. Totally. Or kind of instill more anxiety in your client. Yeah. Yeah. Like, yeah, I've certainly experienced that, that, that anxiety that comes from a protective psychologist trying to look out for you. Yeah.

[00:27:56] Bronwyn: Yes. Yeah, totally. So, nowadays when clients talk to me about their relationships. When it's appropriate, I might ask what keeps them drawing you back to this relationship? What are some things that you love and appreciate about your partner? That kind of stuff. Obviously, I won't do that if they're disclosing abusive things to me. It's like, I'll still make sure that they're safe and validate that, but I try not to demonize the other partner and increase that.

[00:28:23] Phoebe: No, I think it's just if you get an understanding of the partner, what their schemas may be, and absolutely, they're a human too, and um, the strength based approach, because it can all feel, you know, you're in conflict, it can feel awful, and like there's no hope, but it's what couples do when they have trauma, and they're figuring out their stuff, and... it's good to highlight the good stuff. I mean, people forget that, right? And then they come in and one session they can feel better because they're like, Oh, there's strengths in my relationship.

[00:28:59] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah. I certainly don't want to increase that sense of hopelessness. I've similarly had clients who do have an anxious or avoidant attachment style and their partner has the anxious or avoidant attachment style, but I always talk to them about this idea of um, learned secure attachment and that that is possible for everyone.

[00:29:17] Phoebe: Everyone. Oh my gosh. As a former and still a little bit leaning too anxiously attached... yes, when you learn to soothe yourself and be that connecting, validating, empathic presence to yourself, and then you can play that out in your relationship, of course you can learn it.

[00:29:35] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's really important to let clients know rather than the alternative of like, this isn't going to work

[00:29:42] Phoebe: Yeah, poor match. Come on, we've all got stuff. We'd never end up with anyone.

[00:29:47] Bronwyn: Yeah, totally. Absolutely.

So we've spoken a lot about romantic relationships and I was just curious about whether you had any tips for clients who are looking for friendships and how psychologists could help them find healthy friendships. Is that something you focus on or not really?

[00:30:02] Phoebe: Um, no, that definitely comes up because, um, predominantly more in my female clients, I would say, but I think a lot of this anxious avoidant attachment stuff and schema, fear of abandonment, emotional inhibition, can't say how I feel, can't put a boundary in place, um, what I allow in my friendships, right? Or, um, I haven't done the work to find my tribe yet. It's, it's actually I think a lot of friendship stuff can be seen through those two lenses, the attachment stuff and the schema stuff.

[00:30:41] Bronwyn: Yeah, so there's, I guess there's examples that automatically come to my mind are people who are say very passive in their relationships and also have, uh, subjugation or self sacrificing schemas. And I guess other people in their friendships persistently take more than they give.

[00:31:00] Phoebe: Totally, like they're energy vampires. She offloads, she vents, she tells me all her emotional problems, I didn't get a lot of space. Right, she just, or she just gets in touch when she's having relationship dramas, right? Um, and we can repeat that very same pattern with a romantic partner choice, someone who's not emotionally available, right?

And so often say that people like, sometimes people think their anxiety is, okay, I have to work on my wounds and the internal stuff, and that's true, But the work is sometimes choosing better conditions and a more supportive and safe environment and then seeing what happens to your anxious attachment... Might just go away if you're in the right place with supportive people.

[00:31:49] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, that's so true. So, like, is that something that you might point out to clients? You might say to them, look, this relationship... I don't know if this other person is going to change, I guess, like, telling you about their emotional issues for an hour every day, but you could, but you could seek out other alternatives, friendships. Is that something that you might talk with them

[00:32:11] Phoebe: Yeah, totally. I am both curious and validating, but also direct. As in, I've seen this pattern and this has been a pattern for a really long period now, right? And actually you've tried these interventions like, You've been really brave and you've talked about how you felt and what you need from this person and it's still not shifted and also energetically I think you're drained and this is keeping you locked in, right? This is consuming, I mean so consumed. That takes up space. You can't allow in these people who are out there waiting for a friend like you and want to show up. Yeah, totally.

[00:32:53] Bronwyn: Yeah, I love how you put that as well because it is really empathetic and it's not like, I don't think a client would listen to that and be like, she's saying I'm a dummy who keeps on doing the same thing over and over again. That's not what we want to communicate to our clients.

[00:33:06] Phoebe: No, gosh, we're all just, I just think we've all just been traumatised, haven't we? To people please. It's all just conditioning, right? Yeah.

[00:33:16] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, I love that. Phoebe, I wanted to move a little bit onto why you think it's helpful for psychologists to work on their own stuff and I'll ask you this question. Which is, I guess, working with women who want to find love and having a background yourself of difficult relationships. How has working on your own stuff helped when you might hear stuff from women that's similar to your own stuff?

[00:33:42] Phoebe: Um, in so many ways, I don't even know where to start. I think that, what what going to therapy gave me was really seeing the narrative of how I came to be who I am and why I chose, and I think, I'll use the word chose, ended up in relationships that I did. Because of what little Phoebe witnessed and what she grew up with and what felt familiar, um, you know, pretty common self sacrifice stuff.

But also, you know, to have this experience of what I tolerated and what it cost me emotionally and how the trajectory was going to be, like the trajectory of those relationships having lived it, it's always going to be, I think, burnout... Resentment... You know, more often than not, a partner who wasn't going to change.

So, I think kind of being really clear on what unhealthy relationship behaviors are and, and, and that for your emotional health for the rest of your life, you need to be met halfway. Like the, the only thing that works is reciprocity in a relationship and then to have experienced that finally in my life and how amazing that has been for, I think for a career, for work, for money, um, for work life balance, for just my nervous system settling.

It's also having kind of healed a lot of those wounds. Being able to see myself, setting me up to choose a better partner. It also gives me hope and optimism for these women. Like you actually don't have to live in that relationship. There is better out there. Right?

[00:35:32] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:35:33] Phoebe: But also like there's not a perfect partner, but to have a partner who works on themselves whatever relationship you were in is is so so important and then my own therapy also really helped me realize You know the behaviors I was engaging in to make the cycle of conflict worse.

[00:35:55] Bronwyn: Oh, interesting.

[00:35:57] Phoebe: Yep, um and so I used to think I'd have a voice and I'd speak up Speak up. And I really realized that was not true. I was not good at being vulnerable. I was quick to anger. I was critical. It's all that classic anxious attachment stuff. I was overly pursuing perfectionistic, like really high expectations of a partner. And so I had to kind of Like, it's okay. My partner works differently to me. I can understand what's happening on the flip side when I do all of that stuff. And if I start with me first and soothe myself, I have a better chance of communicating and I have a better chance of getting my needs met. So it's, I don't know, doing your own work, it just like opens up everything.

[00:36:46] Bronwyn: Uh, yeah, it's amazing just the things you've communicated. Like, thank you for sharing all of that. It sounds like it's been a transformative journey.

[00:36:54] Phoebe: Like I feel a different person and I feel so blessed and it's like, wow, here I am in a happy, healthy, secure, functioning relationship. And that, that happened really quickly, actually. Like it was like this years of, you know, repeating the same stuff. And then when I found schema work, kind of like within a year, you know, I found my partner, my person, and we're happy... and. And we talk and it's all, you know, there's this trust, like it's all going to be okay. I just want, you know, women and all humans to know that they can have that.

[00:37:34] Bronwyn: Yeah. I'm really pleased that happened for you. Like, yay.

[00:37:39] Phoebe: It's the biggest joy of my life, really. Um, and to, I always wanted that. And I think there's a lot of shame sometimes when a, a woman, you know, she's dating and she's focusing on finding love and she really wants that for herself. Like I think that can be something that people shame, like learn to be happy on your own and that's true but it's okay to go after love and you should and you can have it.

[00:38:09] Bronwyn: yeah, no, I agree. It's really weird, isn't it? It's like, yes, there's a place for learning to be on your own, but there's also a massive human need for connection for the vast majority of us, which is very normal.

[00:38:20] Phoebe: Correct, exactly,

[00:38:21] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, I'm really pleased that therapy has had such a big impact on you and I hope that listeners can hear how valuable it has been for you.

[00:38:31] Phoebe: Oh it's Just like, that's why I'm a good psychologist. I'm sure of that.

[00:38:37] Bronwyn: I mean, it would mean that when clients bring up stuff that is similar to your stuff, like self sacrifice, um, and resentment, you have an insider perspective on what that could feel like and what needs to happen.

[00:38:54] Phoebe: You join the dots a lot more quickly, I feel like you then offer clients, like, more motivation and a buy in to treatment because I speak with authenticity, like, I actually sat and journaled to my inner child, right, and I sat and did that imagery and cried and I know how powerful that is and I spoke to my little Phoebe every day, right, and what it did and how my nervous system settled or I journaled when I was angry right and I let that stuff out and I gave it a voice and I validated it. I can actually... this is how the work looks.

[00:39:32] Bronwyn: Yes. Yeah, no, such a good point. And we have had an episode on therapists and therapy, and that was one of the key things that we came up with. It's so authentic to be like, I know what it feels like to be in the hot seat here. Like it is hard. It is not easy. You need to practice it every day and it can be really tough and vulnerable.

[00:39:51] Phoebe: Totally. I, um, I've said before, I often wanted to stop therapy. Like, yeah, really, you know, wipe me out for a day. I'd just go to bed and, you know, lie down for the rest of the afternoon. It was totally overwhelming. but that meant I think finally I was in the right place and it was doing its job. It's just opening up things I didn't know were there.

[00:40:15] Bronwyn: No, amazing. Thank you so much for sharing that with us.

[00:40:18] Phoebe: Oh, that's my pleasure.

[00:40:20] Bronwyn: I wanted to maybe wrap up with this last question, which is, um, how many years are you in as a registered psychologist?

[00:40:27] Phoebe: Um, so I graduated 2010, so it's like 13.

[00:40:31] Bronwyn: Okay, that wasn't the final question. That was the pre question. Yeah. The next question, the final question, because I wanted to contextualize it, was that, okay, so you've been in this 13 years, at least, um, what wisdom do you have to share with early career psychologists? Like, what do you wish you knew when you started out?

[00:40:49] Phoebe: Business savvy, that's a huge part of it. I wish someone told me go and do your own work. I don't know if I would have believed it, definitely. Yeah, find out what you love to do and you can have joy with that. More preparation about what happens. If you're, um, going to be burnt out, because that's happened, and that happens. But it's just this beautiful unfolding, like the person you start off being, you're going to change, and that, that'll be incredible.

[00:41:24] Bronwyn: Awesome. Well, Phoebe, if listeners want to learn more about you or get in touch or recommend your programs to their clients or colleagues or themselves, um, where can they find you?

[00:41:36] Phoebe: Um, just go to therelationshipspace.com.au, or therelationshipspace on Instagram, you'll find me there.

[00:41:44] Bronwyn: Amazing. We'll have those links in the show notes for you.

[00:41:47] Phoebe: Thank you.

[00:41:49] Bronwyn: And listeners, once again, thank you for listening. I'd also like to thank new Patreon subscribers, Brian and Yanyi, and I'd like to thank everybody who's emailed, everyone who's brought me a virtual coffee and has shared the podcast. If you liked this episode, do share it with someone because that's the best way to get it in more ears. That's a wrap. Thanks for listening to Mental Work. Have a good one and catch you next time.