Transcript

Speaker 1

Hey mental workers and welcome back to the Mental work podcast. Your companion to early career psychology. As always, I'm your host. Doctor Bernard Wilkins, and today we are talking about how to include families and parents in discussions that you have in the therapy room. This can be a bit of a scary topic for early. Because we're mostly trained in delivering 1:00 to 1:00 work. So when we think about including other people in the clients lives, we can feel a bit. Oh, OK. I don't know how to do this. And and I don't think we're given much guidance on it either. So here to help us unpack it and really skill us up in this. Is Marisa caucus. Hi, Marie. Hello. It's so nice to have you on. Thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker 2

Yeah, it's really exciting. I love talking about working with families and parents.

Speaker 1

Yeah, that's so cool. And so, listeners Marie is a mental health social worker. She's a family couples therapist. And she also has her own podcast called This Complex Life, which normalises conversations about mental health and relationships, which I think is Uber cool. I've listened to a few episodes, and I think they're really fantastic. And just really practical as well. So I would recommend checking it out and Marie tell us something else about yourself what's outside of Marie. Work life look like for you. What's a passion? You have.

Speaker 2

Ohh, I'm an avid hiker. I actually just had a hiking trip planned that got rained out this weekend, so a little bit bummed, but I like to go out for a couple of day hiking, kind of exploring trips with no phone reception. It's just so divine. And yeah, I do yoga and the gym on a more regular basis.

Speaker 1

Wow, what a dream. That sounds amazing. The no phone reception in particular. Yeah.

Speaker 2

A dream for some and a nightmare for.

Speaker 1

Others I think there would be. Marie, I'm curious to know what led you to wanting to come on and talk about this topic of working with families and parents.

Speaker 2

It's sort of. Hardly being my own experience starting off my bachelor degree was actually in psychology and then I realised it actually did have a very individual focus and it didn't quite land for me. So I. Moved into social work and then. Over many years started working with young people and I was like this is great. I know how to do this and then they came with parents and they bring the parents in. I'm like I don't know what to do right now and I felt, you know, really did them a disservice. I felt like I was just giving parents a fly out or a leaflet or saying this is what you need to do and really had. No. One understanding of the impact. Of the system on the young person and. Making some really. Really simple mistakes like I remember giving someone this journal. It was a gratitude journal prompt saying why don't you do this? At home over dinner. You know, Monday it had three prompts that you talked about Tuesday 3. Prompts and they kind of looked to me and like we. Didn't have dinner. Together, you know, they didn't have a dining table. And so it was all these assumptions that I would make about, of course. Things are just gonna be capable of doing that. Or of course, they're doing this or why wouldn't they just do that? And so I went back and started family therapy. And sort of did some couples therapy training as well. And they've brought that all in and it's one of the things once you know it, you can't Unsee it. And so it's really hard not to think of the impact of the system, especially when working with young people, with people who still live with their parents, who are very much trying their best to navigate their parents, hopes, dreams, desires, any parent. You know marital conflict. Multiple siblings. I think it was really important to find a way to give that voice and understand that as part of conceptualising what's happening for that young person.

Speaker 1

Yeah. So it was really tapping into your own experiences and noticing perhaps that the strategies that you were giving parents had made some assumptions about what their system looks like and wanting to upskill in that area.

Speaker 2

Yeah, absolutely. And even putting words to what is sometimes families think is really obvious, but they they don't say it explicitly. You know. I'll give you a recent example of a young person I had the them and their parent in for a session, and I know that parent thinks their young person is amazing. I think she's an amazing young person as well, but throughout the week they're fighting about technology, bedtimes, curfews, homework, you know, all the stuff that you would fight about. And she slowly started to forget that. Her parents actually think she is this awesome person. So really when I had them in the room, a part of me had to pause the conversation and say Mum thinks you're amazing, wonderful human, I actually. Think you're incredible? And I don't know if you get told that or not enough and mum's in there going. Yeah, of course. I think that, but had never actually said that. And once we could put words to it, the young person could soften to realise Mum wasn't trying to be controlling. Mum was scared and mum couldn't articulate that. So then I was able to say I think Mum's really scared of what might happen. If these things aren't in place and then we can have the conversation from a very different position than just what's a reasonable curfew and what's the consequence if you don't hand your phone in at that time? And what happens if you're not home by this time on Saturday, that would have been so. So it just it wouldn't have done anything really useful, but actually coming out with empathy and understanding and thinking what's happening between them, what's not being said, they're so much more powerful in that moment.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I think that's a really good example and a really powerful demonstration of how considering how the parent feels and how the. Young person is deceiving their parents. It's really important to consider rather than just jumping straight to a a stock standard, say behavioural intervention.

Speaker 2

Yeah, absolutely. Cause I don't think it it lasts and especially for adolescents, attachment and connection are the biggest tool you have. So behaviour intervention you might get. If they're scared of you, they might be compliant. If they're terrified of being punished, but that's not respect, that's not attachment. That's not security and safety. It might be compliance, and I don't know if that's what people really.

Speaker 1

No, it's a really great point and I think even just hearing you speak, it highlights a lot of gaps in my knowledge around this area. So I don't work with young people under 18 anymore. I used to, but we didn't have any parents come in and we certainly weren't encouraged to have parents come into our sessions. And I did work with young people. I remember that we were encouraged. If the parent requested to set aside 10 minutes at the end of the session to talk with them, which I always felt was very inadequate, but we just never had the encouragement and the training. But the way that you're talking about it, it seems essential.

Speaker 2

Yeah, we don't do it in my practise in the therapy hub, we don't have young people under 18 come without their parents. So we try and get. Ideally I'd like to see the parents first if they've made the referral, but at least for a good handful of the sessions, they're in there for half, if not all of it. And then we have some even parent only sessions with the permission of the young person. Because even something as practical as if I'm teaching someone a grounding technique. And I'm saying something like every time you're flooded, I need you to get up, go to the bathroom and splash some water on your face. And the parents don't know and they're having dinner and the young person's flooded and they go to the bathroom to wash their face. They might get yelled at. They might be told off. Why are you leaving the table? Why you do it? So even just being able to give context to someone that tools and strategies that we're experimenting with. Can mean that the parents don't accidentally exacerbate that distress, or they know how to support, or they might actually be able to use it as a reminder. So it really feels like they're such a valuable piece and they want to be involved. They really do. They want to know what's happening with the most important. Person in their life.

Speaker 1

So I think there's two things that I'm wondering I think like from the perspective of early career psychologists, they might feel scared to include parents. Or they might. Want to include parents but not know how to? And then I think there's this third thing where it's like. Sometimes early career psychologists, they may not be parents themselves, and they think who am I to advise his parents of what they can do? Do I think that I know better than them about their trust? They don't want to be imposed. Seeing and I'm just wondering if you've seen any of these reactions or attitudes in people you've supervised.

Speaker 2

And I think I felt all of them. I don't have children myself, but I'm not actually imposing or or directing anything. I'm actually holding space for that conversation to kind of unravel it so. At any point you start off being a novice, so it might be that you just bring someone in for 10 minutes and then you talk about that in supervision. Then you might do a little bit of training or listen to a podcast you know you can up skill as. You go. It's totally fine, I think.

Speaker 1

So I don't have to be perfect at it out. Of the gate.

Speaker 2

No, and I think that's even something too overt. I don't know if psychologists are very good at doing this. I think actually, a lot of therapists aren't. But I'm. I'm coming more from a stance of actually saying this is what I can do and these little limitations even saying, look, I'm not a family therapist, but I really find that. Valuable to have the parents come in for the last 10 session, 10 minutes of the session. What I'd like to talk to in this time might not be everything that's on your bucket list on your wish list or whatever, but this is what I can offer. So actually holding that professional stance in the room. Holding that space and actually just being clear about what you can and can't offer can still be really reassuring for people, cause you're not going outside your scope.

Speaker 1

And then you're not telling them. Look, I can't offer anything, but you are offering value with the things that you can do.

Speaker 2

Yeah. So you can say I've only got 10 minutes. It'd be great if we had more sessions. If you feel if I feel it's needed, I might refer you on to a family therapist in these 10 minutes. This is what I can do. I can give you a brief update of what I'm doing with your young person. We can have 10 minutes where you can tell me some of your concerns, and I can Mull it over and see what we. Can do with that. In the next session, or it's a chance for us to sort of just look at what's working really well and actually just take a moment to reflect on the progress we've made so far. How does that sound? Which option sounds best? So you're not directing and you're not really telling anything, you're prescribing it. You have to do this, or you should do this. It's coming in with this knowledge that they are doing the best they can. That they will be there will be a very good reason for whatever behaviour the parents are exhibiting as well, and we're trying to understand that.

Speaker 1

So much like working with clients, we're having a very collaborative relationship with our parents and not one where we're putting ourselves in a position of authority over them. I mean, we know that doesn't work. For everyone else, either, like nobody likes being told that you should do this. No, they don't. No. Yeah. And let that sounds like a really woman inviting approach about letting them know what you can and can't do and then inviting them to talk about their concerns and some of the good things as well. I think that maybe touches on another fear that I reckon early career psychologists have is that. The parent might be adversarial like they might think that you, as the psychologist, are going to blame them for their child's behaviours that they see as challenging. And so they're worried that the parent might be adversarial. What would you say to that?

Speaker 2

I would probably normalise that I would actually bring the parent in and say. I'm I'm wondering if a part of you feels that I'm going to. Tell you off. You'll use some parts and it makes sense. You've probably had a number of professionals up until now, not include. You give you medication, give you scripts, tell you this and it makes sense that you would feel like you can't trust me. This is what I can provide. How do we work together? You can actually overt that and. Then problem solve that with the pay. You know and say I know you're doing the best you can. You keep showing up, you keep dropping them off at our appointments, you keep paying the fees or taking time off work like I know you're doing everything you can.

Speaker 1

Wow, that's such a beautiful approach.

Speaker 2

Normal and really normalising that for them.

Speaker 1

Yeah, of course. Like it's like as soon as you say it, I'm like, oh, yeah, that makes heaps of sense. And I'm just wondering, like, do you find that that approach is helpful and is effective? Well, everybody will.

Speaker 2

Have different levels of what they're hoping to get out of the session, but it's a lot harder to like. It's not disingenuous, I'm. Being secretive or being honest, that's probably their fear. And I want to work with them. I've got them there. In that moment, I can offer something that might take it on a different.

Speaker 1

Track curious about parents who might not trust you as well, in that maybe they're they're experiencing. Burn out the parent themselves. Maybe they've lived a long time with behaviours that they see in their child. Out which I guess are associated with some stress to them and they're thinking, look, I want help. But when I come to see the therapist, are they gonna provide me with strategies or suggestions that add to my mental load rather than alleviator like, you know, they're at the. At the end of their ropes. I I have a feeling that this is going to be the. Discuss it with them, but I'm curious to hear what you think.

Speaker 2

I think that's really tricky because there are some things that do take longer to start with and then pay off later. So you're thinking about I always picture like a little kid on a high chair and it's easier to just shovel the food in their mouth and get it over it done with rather than see them grab a meatball, throw it on the floor, pick up the spaghetti, swing it around you, learn to use their. My hand, so it might be in telling using an analogy with the parent and actually. Saying I know that this sounds like a lot, what's the minimum viable product that might have the biggest gain? And for some people it might be you know that they get a lift to the bus stop and that two minutes in the car they just get to connect. Maybe it's they need a text message or a meme throughout the day to feel like their parents thinking of them. It's actually. Figuring out what is a small bed that might not be so taxing, and often those bits are the ones that involve. And because we get a lot more responsiveness from a young person if they feel connected to their parent, if they feel that there's respect there. So it's really hard to say without knowing individual circumstances, but I would acknowledge that saying this is hard. It's really, really hard. And I don't have a quick. And sometimes that that's the. Truth, because it might involve we might need. You know, you might need to think of babysitters and going, you know, work stuff and find the million things. So it's actually thinking, well, what is within my scope? What's the bit that I can change in the time that I have them here with me and maybe in the commute home?

Speaker 1

Yeah. Again, I think that's a really beautiful approach and it speaks to like how how I guess like calm and collaborative, you seem to be and your approach with families, which is really fantastic. I'm just trying to think of any other anxieties that I can think of. And then I'll ask you if there's any that we haven't. I think 1, which might be common for early career therapists, is this imposter syndrome, so that the parent is gonna work out that the therapist doesn't know anything when the therapist actually does know things. So one, it's like, you know, a therapist kind of thing, not acknowledging their skills and knowledge in the area. But I think the early career therapist can be like, they're gonna work out that I'm an idiot here and that I don't know anything about what to do with their family and with their system. And I guess I'm wondering, have you experienced this, and if so, how did you manage it?

Speaker 2

I still experience it all the time, and then depending on the person or the family, I might be really honest. Like when I first started working with trans folk for example, I had a a personals work with him like look, this is where my knowledge is limited and I will keep learning cause it's an area that I'm going to explore if you outgrow what I can offer, we'll prefer you on. But I'm happy to keep learning and keep doing my training and understand more about. Transitioning and the hormones and the side effects and all of this stuff. And if this works for you, we'll keep talking. So for some I really overt. I'm learning about this topic and does that work with you and for other people it can be sort of holding space in the session, you can hold space without having to know a lot and then you can case, conceptualise. Afterwards you can. Hold space for the session. If people really pressure you saying look, I can see this is really important and I'm not going to do your family justice if I jump in right now with the solution because I need some more information. So you you know you can model that authenticity, you can role model, that boundary setting of what you're prepared to do and you can role model. That I value this and I'm going to think about it a little bit in between our sessions, I'm going to chat with my supervisor. Or I'm going to map it all out and I'm going to come back to you next session with a little bit more structure or with some feedback of what came to mind. How does that? Sound. So it's really. Showing people they're important, you're prepared to learn a little bit more and you're not just making it up. And I still think that kind of honesty will get you better.

Speaker 1

I agree it. It to me like hearing you say that it really seems like you don't seem to have any embarrassment or negative feelings about what the limitations of your scope are, so you're not like ohh, I'm such a failure for not knowing this thing. It's really just meeting reality where it's at and being like. Look, I'm good at these things and I can do this and I can offer this. However, this is where the scope of my knowledge lies and ends. How does that land for you? Is that right?

Speaker 2

Yeah, because a lot of the, a lot of the additional training I've been doing myself and listening to podcasts and thinking about what the user experience is like, that's the stuff that people complain about when they go to see a therapist. They don't care if we're schema trained E MDR trained act. That makes no sense to them. Often they wanna know that the person is being honest. They're reliable. Or they know that therapeutic relationship. You know, if you look at a is it like a common factors approach or something like that? Those are the skills that matter more than any of the other modalities. So being really clear on those and talk about the talking, what you're going to do seems to be a lot easier for us because we don't have to feel like we're stretching ourselves. Way out of our comfort zone. And it's also being opened on us and realistic with the person in front of us.

Speaker 1

Amazing. Yes, I love that. And I find that reassuring too. That anxious part of me. So hope listeners find that reassuring as well to hear and very validating. I'm just wondering, Marie, are there any other anxieties that you've had in working with parents and families that we haven't?

Speaker 2

Talked about. There are a few, but I wanted to just pick on something you said about your anxieties. I actually think that sometimes, depending on the context, you can actually bring that to the session, because if the if the person in front of you is tugging something, there's a chance they do that to other people. And so you might be able to say a part of me really wants to jump in and rescue you. Right. Maybe there's something in there in the way they're speaking or in the way they're acting that's bringing people to them to rescue them. So you might sort of really want to jump in and rescue another part of me just wants to give you the biggest hug and too, it's going to be OK and another part of me also wants to just run away. Is, I think, wow, this must be a lot and if we open this box, it's gonna be a can of worms. Ohh man. Sometimes all these parts are happening at once. So you can you can. Avert that too, though, right? I love that.

Speaker 1

It's like, yeah. So it really is noticing your own feelings and reactions that you have. With different clients and bringing that to the surface to discussing it cause there might be something like you say that you're being pulled into or that they might show up in relationships outside of the therapeutic.

Speaker 2

Absolutely, it's information.

Speaker 1

Yeah. So it's not feelings to be afraid of or feelings that you always have to neutralise straight away. It can be feelings that are useful therapeutically.

Speaker 2

They can be and it's then it's in your supervision to start to work out what is information in the room and what is a sensitivity for you or something that's triggering a response. That's not really matching that situation, and that's in the stuff you either talk about in supervision or in your own personal therapy. So it's on a continuum. We don't want to say all feelings are bad, but we don't want all reactions to be OK as well. So it's using that your discretion with is this going to be helpful in the moment if this person? Is lacking some relational skills or some insight. If I share these parts of me feel these things, might that be helpful for our work together?

Speaker 1

Mary, I think we want to jump to next is, I'm really curious about how to involve families like I know that's the topic of the episode, but like, I guess yeah, having been trained in a one to one framework involving another party, another person in the system like. Close my mind. I'm like, how do I conceptualise that? What are the? What are my ethical obligations? I can say my client are both the clients I don't.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I think when you're, if you're doing family therapy, then the system is the client. So it's like with couples therapy, that's very different. If you're bringing parents into a young person session, the young person is your client. So you're still maintaining their confidentiality and whatever boundaries you have around that. And I think even bringing the parents in for that. Initial discussion about confidentiality, it can be. Really helpful so. In bringing them in. Sit everyone down. Introducing yourself. Introduce how you like to work and what your expectations are of them, and how you like. They can set that up and normalise that you can say you know we have your you know your young person here. Look, I don't know that I'm going to be able to understand everything in the first few sessions, so it might take up to three or four for me to really understand what's happening. After Session 6 is when I send you back to your GP. If you've got a mental healthcare plan so you can involve parents into the. And then say what we talk about is private between us. So I'm not going to pick up the phone and tell your parents or call your school unless I'm worried about your safety or the safety of someone else. And then parents, I'm not going to keep secret. So if you e-mail me a concern, I'm not going to say, well, you know, you know, so you can talk about how you. Hold that room and what your boundaries are about conversations in between sessions. What you want, what communication is OK, you might ask a young person. I'm gonna call your parents when there's a billing issue scheduling. To you know, blah, blah blah. So it's still actually that could be where you start is actually just setting your boundaries, understanding confidentiality and letting them know what to expect and that can then help the parents adjust their expectations of what you know, are they gonna get emails every day or they expect them to be involved. Or that like they then start to know this is what we can expect from this person.

Speaker 1

So it's really setting up A-frame of how you work and what what the boundaries are. I think that's really great. I'm just interested to know, like you sound very practised when you say those things like those phrases that you say. And I'm wondering, is that like an experiencing? Did you have to practise saying that and really remember to say? About like between session and communications, was it a thing you built overtime?

Speaker 2

It's often a thing I built overtime because something went wrong and I was like ohh I have to do this now. But you know, whenever I've learned something new, even in my couples therapy and even now sometimes if there's a particular. Thing I want to make sure I still have a notepad in front of me and I'll make sure I go through some of the questions like I'm not. I don't find anything wrong with that, so it might be that you sit there. But look, I've just got some admin that I wanna make sure I go through so I cover everything, grab out your notepad or your iPad or whatever you've. Got and say. I just wanna make sure that you understand these things so you can actually give yourself a little checklist. And use that to redirect your attention and focus so that you can go through it so it feels contain. And compose people often don't mind unless you're sitting there with the piece of paper blocking the tool of you. And it's at a desk like you're at a medical clinic. And if you're considered of your body and language, you know they're sitting at a comfortable distance, you've got your notepad sort of next to you. Most people, they don't mind that stuff, especially if you're being honest and say, I just wanna make sure I don't miss anything. And then I'll put the notepad away or like it, it's still. It's just talking about your process and normalising that for you and the.

Speaker 1

Clients. Yeah, I love that you said that because I still do that. So I'm like 3 years now into being a generally registered psychology. Christ, and even as a provisional psychologist, I would literally bring textbooks in and be like I'm not too sure of this. I want to make sure I get it right and I'll just have the book there. And I've never had a client push back or I guess it it overtly affect our relationship. In fact, it's enhanced it by me being authentic about the limitations of my knowledge and that I'm really trying. Here and I want to make sure I do the right thing.

Speaker 2

You. Yeah, I think that's a really great way to do it. And it it takes the pressure off because you can't be an expert in any everything.

Speaker 1

And OK, it's impossible. Yeah. And nobody expects you to either. Like that would just be nuts.

Speaker 2

Yeah, but if you're going to try it, try it with one of the bits that feels the least, you know, challenging for you. So maybe it's the next intake you just you bring the you're like, oh, is that your parents in the waiting room? How about we bring them? In, I'll just have them in for 5 minutes. I'll do my little spiel. And then they can leave and you might just start with that. You might start with. Maybe you wanna start off with recapping positive. So if you're actually getting some really great games with the young person, maybe bring the family in and saying I just wanna take some time to actually reflect on how far you've come, how consistent you've been. Maybe you do some strengths work and you bring out strength cards and you make it. Partner and say, OK, I want you to pick out three strengths for your young person and tell me an example of how they've shown each one. They really wanted to end this, you know, episode of care or this period of work or our sixth session. You know, you can have these little mini signpost to mark chunks of work. So you can start off with positive stuff if you don't have to go with the most complex family to start with.

Speaker 1

Now that makes a lot of sense, so I'm interested. I think in two things. I'm curious with the setting boundaries about out of session contact from parents. I'm wondering. I've seen this a bit on social media, like people asking questions about this. But you've told the parent of the boundary, and then the young person has a fight with their bestie. They're not telling the parent about it. Parent wants to know. They know that you. They've talked about it with you in session. They send you an e-mail being like I wanna. Know the Goss how do? You reinforce that boundary or what do you? Do there, it really depends.

Speaker 2

And every everyone I work with in supervision has a slightly different way. So we really we can't stop them giving us information if they're in the waiting room, they. Could be yelling. Through the door. But yeah, don't forget to tell them. About them, yeah. We can't. We can't ignore that. But we can choose how to respond. So you might have an automatic e-mail reply saying if you're emailing between sessions, this is what I can and can't do, so you might choose to not even. Open that e-mail, OK. You might. You might choose to, depending on the family, to you might open that e-mail and say this is something I need the parents to come in for. Or maybe if you've made it really clear that I'm not going to hide information and the parent sends that, then maybe it's a way for the parent they're trying to get you to help them have that conversation. So it could be that you bring them in saying OK, so I got this e-mail from Mum. Mum didn't tell me what was in the e-mail. OK? What made that hard to talk about? That could still be information, but it's. But it's it's really tricky and and I do it a lot where you know, especially the more critical some parents feel that their young person is is exhibiting really kind of scary things like maybe they're self harming, that it really activates the system and it can cause a lot of anxiety and it's really trying to tell parents I can do a parent session, you can come in at the end. Come in at the start, but this is getting. In the way of the work that I'm doing or this is not what I can help with right now, so it can be really it can be really tricky and there are cases where I still take to supervision and I unpack it and we, you know, reformulate together. But in general it's it's trying to have that kind of transparency.

Speaker 1

Yeah. No, that sounds like great suggestions. As I was listening to speaking, I've pushed out. The other thing that I wanted to talk about, which I'll come back to later, this is very ADHD of me. I'm just like, OK, hold that and then forget that and then come back to this thing. So as you were speaking, I was think. This sounds like a lot, and I'm wondering whether there is an increased mental load or stress associated with working with both parents and the young person as opposed to just one to one. And if there is, how you take care of yourself. With that increased stress.

Speaker 2

It it definitely does, and I think that sometimes I I try not to have more than two appointments back-to-back and I will try. I probably need to tweak it so that after a parent like a family session, I have a bit of a break because. The case formulation. It feels a lot bigger. Yeah. And it feels a lot. A lot of parts that I'm trying to kind of put together. And it's also the times where you get the biggest rewards the most quickly. So it does have these kind of some high risk, high reward. But I try to leave like maybe I would. Recommend someone starting out. Have that like, have that gap like make it a 90 minute block in your diary. Have the kind of 50 minute session and then have your kind of down time so you can kind of put those pieces in. And I think people you get into a bit of a flow over time of what fits your diary, especially now I'm lucky in private practise I can kind of move my things around and and and schedule things accordingly.

Speaker 1

That's a good idea.

Speaker 2

Of being aware of your own energy and what which sessions are taxing, which are. When I see couples, we make that first session like a not a time and 1/2. So a 75 minute session and then I have that bigger break at the end because that's that's required for me to digest everything.

Speaker 1

Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I think it really normalises the idea that it's it's often quite hard for us to go between, you know, back-to-back sessions, particularly when we've had, yeah, more mentally taxing.

Speaker 2

Work. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I think one one thing and these. People will probably like absolutely not do anything. But what I'm about to suggest, I would if you're going to give this a go, I would ask for permission to record the session, set up a template, or set up a consent form and tell your clients I'm doing some advanced training in working with families you know, is it OK if I record only me? My supervisor will watch that. So what was most helpful about my family therapy course? Because we do the therapy while our team is watching us. So we have a room, the double sided mirror, our whole little reflective practise group sits behind the double sided mirror and watches us run a family therapy session and we're playing.

Speaker 1

Sounds terrifying.

Speaker 2

Yeah, we do. We do this for two years. And so I've watched, you know, a dozen other people do family therapy. And I've had that many people watch me. And what you learn from that is so much more helpful. So there's nothing to stop you doing that with a supervisor, recording, even watching it back yourself, seeing what you miss. Maybe someone shuffled in their chair and then going through. Why did I say that? What could I have done and you can even share those reflections with that family or with that person so people are actually, it's very funny. I'm. I'm always nervous to ask for recording and very few people say no and it doesn't ruin the therapeutic relationship. I'll mention it to them. I send them the consent form and saying again. Just if you ignore it completely, I'm not going to remind you I'm not gonna ask you. About it again and that's. It's such a good way to learn.

Speaker 1

No, I completely agree. And I know we'll freak out a lot of listeners, but I did an episode earlier just on recording sessions and talked about the value of doing it because I've been recording a lot of my sessions for my chemotherapy accreditation and I have to say that it does provide a huge boost in learning when you review a video like 1 instance comes to mind. Where it's like I was writing down a note client has a reaction and they changed their facial expression and body language. I missed that and come back to the. With I guess, a happy tone of voice, but really I needed to match a different emotional expression that was taking place and I wouldn't have known that unless I had seen the video. So you can pick up on a lot of stuff that you miss and it just it's such valuable feedback. And I echo what you've experienced, Marie. I've never had. I've actually never had a client decline. To record a session I've had. A few who are like. Tell me more about it and then I've actually had the opposite response of, like, tell me when you're recording next and I'll be happy to come in anytime. I'm very happy to support. Your learning and. I'm like, OK. Great. So you know I've had the opposite response as well. And yeah, it's it's so much better I find for supervision because when you're in supervision, you're talking about new skills that you're learning. You're really remembering what you've done from your perspective and then relaying that from to the supervisor and the supervisor is applying what they think has happened, but with the video you just get everything in real time, so there's no interpretation, you know, no like middle.

Speaker 2

Yeah. And it's it's, it's confront, it can be confronting, but it's such a it's such a good learning experience. And I I've never had a supervisor made me feel like they're judging me. They often quite have a lot of respect and humility for, you know, for sharing that vulnerable space. And I've never judged A fellow colleague who's done that.

Speaker 1

Yes, I am.

Speaker 2

As well because. Everybody has a level of skill that's gotten to to this place, and I actually have a lot more admiration for someone who's, like, I'm really stuck. Can you watch this with me and someone saying I'm really stuck and they're continuing doing the things. The same way.

Speaker 1

100% I agree. Yeah. And really important. I've never had a supervisor judge me for my videos either. It's always been. Quite supportive and the feedback has been really valuable and it it can be confronting but I guess sitting with that discomfort and that knowledge that yeah, we're not perfect, but we're learning and that's OK to learn. Yeah, absolutely. One thing I wanted to ask was, and this comes out of the this is a complete 360. I wanted to know what's the best thing about working with young people and their parents.

Speaker 2

I think for me it's feels like early intervention and prevention, so if I can get the them communicating in a way that's different to what maybe brought them there. They might grow up to have a better relationship, maybe be better partners, and then better parents themselves, so it's it's that relational shift is is so rewarding to see when it goes.

Speaker 1

That's really beautiful. I I really love that. So, like, if I'm a one to one therapist, why should I consider involving parents and perhaps seeking further training in training in this area? Like what have you seen as the? Rewards. Well, you're.

Speaker 2

Only with that person for maybe 50 minutes, once a week or once a fortnight. And they're with. Their family or with the outside world, or that other time. And so you have a really good opportunity there to, to shine a light on some of the things that the family might be able to benefit from. So it really is setting them up for. A different experience by bringing that family in.

Speaker 1

That's awesome. OK. I want to know where you did your family training. And then I wanna ask something else. You just. There's so much to ask you. On this movie, yeah. Where did you do your training?

Speaker 2

I did it at the boundary centre which is.

Speaker 1

I've heard of.

Speaker 2

That Latrobe uni there is, there are other options if people wanna just get a taster, I know the the books that we use. There's a therapist in the US called Diane Gayheart, and she has some really great easy, digestible books, and she also has a YouTube lecture series. So if you go in to type in her name, Diane Gayhart in YouTube, she's actually recorded a lot of her lectures. So. Yeah, you'll be able to get some really simple kind of things around case, conceptualisation or Bowen family systems. So you'll be able to get a bit of a taster to see if it's the. Sort of stuff you like. Oh, what a great suggestion. Yeah, as.

Speaker 1

Early career sites we love free. Stuff and it's like, so good to get that taste up because like I assume with the buffery. Centre was it? That yeah, it it costs, you know, like a few $1000, it's a full masters. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. Yes, yeah, totally. And did you enjoy your experience in family therapy training there?

Speaker 2

I did. I wouldn't. I wouldn't. I can't Unsee it now. So now that I know how to work with families, it's I I do that work, even with individuals. And having that reflective practise. This group is so valuable because you learn how to be in this.

Speaker 1

Space. Well, the way you talk about it is the way that I think about learning a language cause when I think about learning languages, I think not only that you were learning the specific words, but you're learning to see a culture and like a world view from like a different perspective. And when you talk about. Sometimes it just reminds me of that, and I wonder whether, like you can that resonates with you. Yeah, absolutely. It really does. It's learning it in conversation rather than just through a textbook. Yeah, that's so cool. The other question I had was, OK, so as as psychologists and, and I'm sure this is same for the social workers is. Well, the key thing that we're taught about adolescence is that the key psychosocial stages individuation. So they want to get away from their parents, discover who they are, value the social group over their parents. And I wonder how that shows up in therapy. Like, how do you? Honour the maturational state of wanting to individuate. With it, it might be causing difficulty with the parent if they think that their parents ought to get them and roll their lives like that's probably. Is that a hard question?

Speaker 2

No, it makes it makes a lot of sense. I usually say that rupture stuff to happen from that kind of primary school to high school transition, and then it gets.

Speaker

OK, cool.

Speaker 2

A little bit harder. One of the things I do is I work a lot with parents in that moment, saying or normalising their feelings of rejection, because that's often what they're feeling. They had this really cute little kid in primary school who maybe wanted to hold hands and give them a cuddle and had their lunch box patched packed to now someone who they almost don't know anything about. So. Trying to understand where the parents, how they feel, maybe even labelling that rejection or feeling excluded, or if they're not a part of it and then helping them understand how did they respond when they feel that way. So one of the analogies I use with with people is is we call it you moving from manager to consultant. So they need parents in this manager role to organise things and and get them places and have play dates and then somewhere along the line they get fired and parents can handle this in a number of ways. They can fight for. Unfair dismissal. They can spend years in litigation trying to keep their job. They could say, well, stuff you didn't need this anyway. Good riddance or. They can be like. We'll find and get all passive so that can handle the number of different ways. But what we want to say is an acceptance of that role is no longer required. And how can I get hired back as a consultant? This will roll between us has changed my position, description is new and they need. They really still need their parents there. It looks different and so normalising that for parents can help go a long way.

Speaker 1

Well, I love that. Did you come up with?

Speaker 2

That no, I wish I did so good.

Speaker

OK.

Speaker 1

It's so good, but like I love the way that you've explained that. It's it just I think puts it all together and really does normalise the parents feelings in that. And you know it can be shocking to be fired and then move into a a new role like can pick up your stuff from the desk and then have to move down the hallway.

Speaker 2

And yeah, yeah. And one thing like I, I I think some people make this mistake and I definitely did like, I even have a extra training in just like a graduate diploma in Youth and Adolescent Mental Health. And there was nothing in there about working with families, which is that's incredibly.

Speaker 1

Wow, startling.

Speaker 2

But thinking about, I try and consume some content that is targeted to parents, so I'm not always just looking at things for young people. So I'll be listening to podcasts like parental as anything. I'll be listening to ask Lisa, which is Lisa Dimmer's podcast, and her books are excellent. So actually hearing parents stories. Parents concerns parent worries can really help because that I can bring that in and saying. I wonder if you heard this from your young person and it made you scared about XYZ. Like really normalising the parents experiences in that as well because they can't, they can't, you know, the young person can't be what they can't see. And so sometimes we have to help the parents understand what they're feeling and how to articulate it so they can go back into the system to help our young person.

Speaker 1

Absolutely. Well, you've given me a lot to think about. It's been so wonderful to listen to you. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I'm wondering if there's anything that we've missed that maybe. Like any any wisdom that you want to impart to listeners just about working with parents and families?

Speaker 2

I think give give it a go. It's it almost. It almost feels wrong not to have some involvement with family, especially for your working with younger people. And I guess that you know a lot of the data out there, the Mental Health Commission, you know, every everything he's saying, parents want to be involved and that's the best course of treatment. So we actually really do. Need to find a way to bring them in to bring families in, to bring connection in. Because that is the best way.

Speaker 1

Yeah, no, wonderful. And Marie, if listeners wanna learn more about you will get in touch. Where can they?

Speaker 2

Find you so they can my my practise is called the therapy hub. So that's therapy hub.com dot AU and my kind of supervision and consulting and training is at Marie Vaca so. I'll put a link to that in the show notes, so I'll be. Over the over next year, I'll be releasing some training that helps actually talk about some of this stuff. So how to do the first three session kind of structure? How to bring families in the room? So it's some things that we use internally to train our team and I'll be recording that and having that sort of on demand there as well and my parenting programme connected teams will be up there. As well so. On LinkedIn and all the different social media channels as well.

Speaker 1

Great. No, I think that's amazing. And yes, we'll pop those links in the show. Thank you again Marie for coming on. I really like opens my mindset and I feel like yeah, you have such a a calm and lovely approach to involving parents and just it just makes it seem like the obvious thing to do that. Yeah, like you said, like it just you just can't Unsee it. So yes, it's. It's been really wonderful to listen to you and thank you again for coming. On the podcast? No worries it's been. Fun. Great. Well, thank you, listeners for listening. Have a good one and catch you next time. Bye. Thanks for listening to mental work. The podcast for early career psychologists casts are pretty tough, and it's really hard to get the word out there. So there are a couple of things you could do to really help us out. One, leave a review. Second, consider sharing the podcast with your peers. We would love you. Alright, thanks for listening. And see you next time.