How to reclaim the joy of being a psychologist (with Matthew Jackson)

​[00:04:20] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers and welcome back to the Mental Work Podcast, your companion to early career psychology. Today I am very stoked to have returned guest Matthew Jackson back on the podcast. Hi, Matthew.

[00:04:35] Matt: Hi, I'm back. You couldn't get rid of me.

[00:04:37] Bronwyn: No, no, we couldn't, you know, I tried, I really didn't want him, but ah he came back. So now he's here and I'm really pleased though, because today we're going to be talking about holding onto the joy of being a psychologist and working in psychology. This episode specifically comes from a listener. Hi, Nita. It's from Nita, who I love hearing from, love getting your emails, Nita, and Nita emailed me with this great topic. And she writes in saying that, you know, how do we hold onto the joy of being a psychologist? What about if we become disillusioned with the role or lose the joy, how do we reclaim that and how do we remember all the good things about being a psychologist?

I thought this was a great topic to unpack and I'm really looking forward to getting stuck into what is joy in work, how do we think about our role, if, and I'll be asking Matthew if he's lost joy and if so, how has he reclaimed it? How do you work with people who have lost joy, some of the challenging things about being a psych, but some of the amazing things as well.

So I really hope this meets what you're thinking about, Nita and everybody else as well, because I think it really resonates with everyone who's listening. I reckon we've all thought about this topic about, do I actually like what I'm doing? So Matthew, could you please remind listeners who you are?

[00:05:59] Matt: Hi, I am Matthew. I am a registered psychologist and intensively trained DBT therapist. I like to say that my favorite color is myself. And in general I do love being a psychologist. I also love plants and horror films. So if you ever want to know about either of those two topics also hit me up in my DMs.

[00:06:25] Bronwyn: Are you a big fan of the Little Shop of Horrors?

[00:06:28] Matt: I mean, technically I, I prefer like 80s, really campy 80s

[00:06:34] Bronwyn: Okay. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:06:37] Matt: over the like psychological thrillers, too much psych will reduce that joy, I think. Um, But I love those 80 thrillers. That's my era.

[00:06:46] Bronwyn: Yeah. So he loves like seeing them and being like, run away, like he's got to get you,

[00:06:53] Matt: That's me. You'll usually find me like on my couch. It's probably 11pm. I've got pizza popcorn and I'm shouting at the TV. Why are you going up the stairs? You know the front door is right behind you. Move. Get out. Do this for yourself. Fight your inner saboteur.

[00:07:13] Bronwyn: That sounds like a great way to relax and unwind.

[00:07:17] Matt: It really does. People find it weird that horror films help me relax, but I don't know, they just do.

[00:07:23] Bronwyn: I mean, it's not my cup of tea, but you know, each to their own.

[00:07:26] Matt: Thank you.

[00:07:28] Bronwyn: So I reckon we're going to start out with what does joy look like and feel like? Is that all right?

[00:07:34] Matt: Yes.

[00:07:35] Bronwyn: I love how Nita was saying, like holding onto the joy of being a psychologist and I was like, Oh joy, you know, that's one step up above contentment or

enjoyment. It is joy. And I noticed you didn't say bliss. I feel like bliss, joy. I don't know. But what do you think when you hear the word joy?

[00:07:53] Matt: I think warmth, right? So when I think of the word joy, I think warmth. I think the color yellow. I think smiles, yes, contentment, but a more sort of fulfilled level of contentment. I think kind of support, like when I think of joy, I feel like I'm in a cloud or that if somebody's feeling joy, they're being enclosed in a fluffy white cloud around them.

[00:08:22] Bronwyn: Hmm. I hear those things as well. When I think of joy, I actually think of the color yellow as well. It just feels really bright and I think when I think of the things that bring me joy in my life, sometimes it is, like nature and awe and inspiring things. What brings you joy? Like that feeling of warmth and being in a cloud in your life.

[00:08:44] Matt: Some of the things that bring me joy in life is that feeling of, like, peace, where nothing is in crisis. There's no fires for me to put out. It just feels peaceful. I think also similar to you being in nature, even just looking up into the sky, perhaps seeing trees, but clouds and birds that type of feeling comes up around joy.

I think even just watching friends, family, clients as well, achieve their own goals or kind of have moments of like an aha light bulb moment that also gives me a sense of joy when the people around me are doing well. I like that.

[00:09:26] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah, me too. I also get a sense of joy from watching others succeed and fulfill their own goals and ambitions. That brings me a lot of joy... when you see someone like a client who's been struggling and then they just like get something and they understand something. That makes me feel really happy.

[00:09:44] Matt: Yes. I feel like, and I was reflecting on this today in the session, actually, that perhaps when certain clients report to me that, oh, I did this this week, or I did something. You are gonna love it. The smile kind of comes over my face of like, oh my gosh, I'm so excited. Okay, what did they do? Okay, here we go. This is gonna be amazing and brilliant. What's going on for them? sense of, yeah, like, okay, they've accomplished something. I'm in this. Let's celebrate.

[00:10:12] Bronwyn: Yes. I love celebrating in sessions. I've got a thing in my sessions with clients where I have therapy certificates. Do you remember when you were a kid and they gave you certificates at school and they put stickers on them? I just thought that that was a thing that I could do in my own sessions. I think I got excited for someone once and then I just kept on doing it. So I've got a piece of paper and then I let them choose the stickers and then I like write it out and I'm like, so and so did well at this or achieved this or kicked ass in this.

And then I've got these, like, school teacher stickers and I'm like, pick out three that you will put and they're kind of like thumbs up, like, great job, great work, superstar. And then I get them to be like, you stick that where you want to. And quite often they'll say like, it's going on the fridge. And I'll be like, heck yes, it is.

[00:10:58] Matt: I love that. I hope it's not trademarked or registered because you can consider that stolen.

[00:11:04] Bronwyn: Yeah, just steal it. Yeah. I don't think it's trademarked or registered. It is a Bronwyn original. I don't think I stole it from somewhere else or saw it somewhere else. I think it was literally me getting excited and I'm like, I'm going to chuck this on a piece of paper and you get a sticker. Um, and so like, so that's how joyful, like I can get in session. when I get super, super happy for them.

[00:11:25] Matt: I love that. It is that feeling of joy when somebody accomplishes something or has a realization, makes a connection between A and B something. As a therapist, when you feel connected to that person, there is that sense of joy, that yellow light that kind of comes over you. This sense of, oh my gosh, they've done something.

They've done it, whatever it is. Yes, I love this. It's time to celebrate. Let's give you that, that little sticker, that thumbs up sticker on your, I love that.

[00:11:56] Bronwyn: Yeah, and I guess we've already gone into this because I was going to say, like, can we bring joy... cause we were talking about joy for nature and I was like, well, can joy actually enter work, and it sounds like, yes it can.?

[00:12:11] Matt: A hundred percent. I think that joy can end to work. I almost actually think it's sad if joy doesn't enter the workplace. However, I think that joy can be in the workplace. I almost think that you sort of need it to continue being a psych in a way, or being in in the allied health field.

[00:12:31] Bronwyn: so what do you think if we didn't have joy in our work? Let's say it was that we just keep on trudging along and maybe we encounter difficulty after difficulty with our clients or outside of our role with our colleagues, would that be pleasant for you?

[00:12:51] Matt: The simple answer is no, because I've been there before. I've been that psychologist who was so burnt out that there was no joy. I don't think there was warmth, and if there was, it was quite fake. That yellow light was not there. There wasn't that, I'm so happy that I've achieved something. That was gone. Again, I think that was burnout related. But it really made me hate being a psychologist and I know we spoke about that a bit more last episode, but it really contributed to me hating being a psychologist. I don't think I was also really turning up for my clients either. Like, I was in the room, physically, yes, I was in the room, mentally, I don't think so.

Mentally, I think I just had that frame of mind of, well, I've got an electricity bill to pay, so it has to be paid. So I, I needed joy in my sessions, in my job, every day, every week, every month, in order to really enjoy being a psychologist.

[00:14:01] Bronwyn: Hmm. I think that's really interesting and maybe it leads to this question, which I think is quite personal to everyone, but why, do you feel like you can't just like, you know, come in, come out and I do my six or five clients each day and that's it, done and dusted.

[00:14:17] Matt: If you don't have that joy, there's a real lack of empathy. I think that you might be able to apply the models we learn, the theories we learn... it might come across as kind of more cold. It might be a little less like relational and client centered. I think like, in session from a client's perspective at least, the joy joy from the therapist enables clients to connect with them.

It enables clients to form a relationship that isn't just like, you know, mother client, father client, best friend client. It's a relationship of this person gets me beyond just, you know, A couple of theories. I think if we lose that joy, then there isn't such a strong bond. It lacks the warmth.

[00:15:07] Bronwyn: I think you're right with that, particularly the warmth, because there's a lot of research saying that warmth in the psychology therapy relationship is super important and when I think about what you've just said and reflect on it, I wouldn't want to be in a therapy session with a therapist who doesn't want to be there and is just like, okay, you're like, cattle number one and you're in and out, I wouldn't feel like that therapist cares about me, that they really want to understand me. And I think it would affect how well I do in therapy.

[00:15:43] Matt: I agree with you. I hold the idea that humans are intrinsically intelligent beings. I think we um, are incredibly skillful at picking up on, like, fakeness. And so when a therapist comes into the room and they've lost that joy, it comes through. It really comes through. I can even see it with colleagues now and then that I work with.

 I've observed them provide empathy or validation to a client and it comes through as like, well, I'm meeting a checklist, right? And it doesn't come through with that warmth, that sincerity. And I think from that client's perspective, if I was in their shoes, I'd be really let down.

 I would probably have that thought of, ugh, great, another psychologist who doesn't really care about me, just sees me as a paycheck. And I don't want clients to have that experience with me. I want them to feel like. Okay, Matt really cares. Matt's invested in my life. Matt wants me to do the best that I can. I'm noticing, actually as I'm talking, my voice is changing a little bit because I'm getting a bit emotional actually.

[00:16:59] Bronwyn: Really? What's bringing out the emotion for you?

[00:17:01] Matt: I think because I really care about people. I really care about humans. When I was burnt out or I think back on uh, colleagues in the past or present who I can see are burnt out and have lost that joy, that warmth, I feel really sad. I also feel just as sad for the clients who have to be in a room for 50 minutes and are paying a service too. For somebody who's like, Oh, that must've been really sad...

I feel so sad for them that there's that urge to cry. So if I think about that being pumped in my body, this experience right now in this moment. I think that really rings true for just how integral joy is, not only in the therapeutic relationship, but also for like, enjoyment in the career, longevity of the career. It's gotta be more than just, I need to pay my electricity bill. You could do that working anywhere.

[00:18:02] Bronwyn: Yeah I mean, to speak to that emotion, I think, I wonder if it's partly... we see people when sometimes they are at their most vulnerable points in their life and they really need someone who is on their team, who does care about them, who views them more as something that is just checking some boxes or another old human in and out sort of thing.

And so it is really sad when the psychologist doesn't bring that joy, but it's, yeah, it is really sad for the client as well, because they really need that assistance. So I feel I think what we're getting at, and this is a question that I had when I started the episode, which was like, well, you know, I know some people who work their jobs and they do see it as a paycheck.

Like, you know, don't get too attached to your job. Just do the job, get in, get out. And, and that's fine. I, I view that as, as quite fine, but I wonder if psychology like being a therapist, whether you just can't not care and not bring that joy because like we've talked about, it is integral to how the client perceives the session and then how you relate to your work.

[00:19:14] Matt: I agree with you. I think if psychology is just a job. Okay, cool. That's fine. And at the same time, is still that thought for me in the background of, Hmm, is the client picking up on that though? I, I hope not, as somebody who I think prides themselves on being authentic, please listen to the last episode, if you have not,

[00:19:43] Bronwyn: Yeah. in post that the show notes. I'll be like Matthew's previous episode.

[00:19:48] Matt: the, you know, kind of public speaker on authenticity as a psychologist, I, believe that clients can pick up on that. I really do. And I think it's totally fine to view psychology as just a job. I think we do have to think about it from the client's perspective. And I also think that we have to think about it from our perspective.

It can't, money can't just be the only thing that you did, you know, six plus years of study for, and then, you know, $100, 000 worth of debt and, uh, medico legal issues and there's, there's gotta be more to it for you than just paycheck.

[00:20:25] Bronwyn: Yeah. I think very few psychologists would have gotten into this profession just because they wanted the money from it.

[00:20:31] Matt: There are much easier ways make that a huge amount more money less study.

[00:20:39] Bronwyn: Absolutely, 100%. So I think that speaks to us as a cohort that I think more than likely we all care very deeply for other humans. And so we don't want to lose this joy. We want to keep this joy and we want to remember the reasons why we got into this profession and we don't want to come into sessions and be like, I don't care about you.

[00:20:58] Matt: Can you imagine being um, a client? I mean, let's put ourselves in that shoe for just a minute. Can you imagine? We're clients. Okay, so person has come to the waiting room, they've greeted us.

Hi, let's go through, come on.

[00:21:14] Bronwyn: Oh, I really hate it.

[00:21:17] Matt: Well, we're still doing it. So come on, come into the room. Take a seat. How was your week?. That's unfortunate that you hate it. Um, so, like I can't even do it.

[00:21:33] Bronwyn: Oh my God. It's so terrible. I would, I would felt myself getting really shitty immediately. I was being like, look, if you don't want to be here, you don't have to be here. Like we can, we can end this right now.

[00:21:42] Matt: yes. A hundred percent.

[00:21:45] Bronwyn: Yeah, like, ah, that felt really shitty. I didn't like that. And it felt shitty be like that way.

[00:21:53] Matt: I, I do apologize for um, setting that in vivo exposure moment up for you, prior.

[00:22:00] Bronwyn: Oh, no, no. It was, it was a fine, it was a fine setup and I, I understand. It just like I, you know, I've gotten just a taste of what some clients would experience.

[00:22:10] Matt: That's not to say going to the other extreme is how we want to be either. We also don't want to approach clients and be overly fake like, Oh my gosh, I'm so excited you're back. How's your week been? That's not authentic.

[00:22:23] Bronwyn: No, I don't know. Clients would pick that up as well. I, I completely agree with that. I think clients have really good bullshit detectors and I think neurodivergent clients, especially, they're really good at it. But think about it, like, let's say that you're going through a really hard time in your life and you're looking for someone who cares about you, who you got to trust with the most personal information, who you might never have shared with anyone else, you are probably going to be on the lookout, like even subconsciously for signs that they don't care.

So, there might be that they don't greet you in a way where they have a tone of voice that conveys caring and you're going to pick up on that as a client because you're like, okay, am I going to put my trust into this person? It's so important to have that warmth and authenticity. And yeah, I think the research, like there's just so many studies upon studies that, that show that authenticity, congruence warmth, care, genuineness are so important.

[00:23:19] Matt: A hundred percent and that... that builds the relationship time well. I can totally understand for a brief intervention. Sure, the relationship might not be at the forefront. Totally understand. And for those interventions or for those clients who perhaps present with issues that may require them to be in treatment for months or years on end, that relationship research shows is one of the most important factors. I could probably give you like 20 articles right now that show that.

 We really do as psychologists have to find the joy within ourselves and our careers and that will radiate to the relationship to clients and I think overall, and I know that research does show this within like the areas of DBT especially when that radiates to clients there is far better attrition rates.

[00:24:18] Matt: Um, even, uh, goals scores, right? Things like that are vastly improved. So there's something to be said about not only the therapeutic relationship, but also the joy of the therapist and how they feel about their career inside and outside of the therapy room.

[00:24:39] Bronwyn: 100%. And I think with losing joy, when you, we did that in vivo exposure just then was thinking about how with burnout, one of the early signs is becoming quite detached from your work. And so it can be a protective function for the psychologist that maybe they've got compassion fatigue, maybe they've just given too much and they just can't bear to take on any more emotional labor and load.

And so maybe we can turn our attention to talking about what it is, what it looks like to lose joy and how you have reclaimed that joy. Because I know we touched on this in the last episode where you were talking about like losing some joy but I'm interested in that, but also how you, how you got back to it.

[00:25:28] Matt: I adore this question. This is so amazing. Um, yes, I lost that joy for a good year around that time and it made being a psychologist just painful. I think in finding the joy again and continuing to be a therapist, to learn to accept and continue to accept as well that For me to be a psychologist, I really can't keep my clients at arm's length. And what I mean by that is, I know I'm an emotional person. I mean, I nearly cried two minutes ago.

 I have been known, you know, in a group therapy session, when there's a lot of processing going on, I've been known to cry with group. And I'm really proud of my sensitivity to other people's emotions. It's honorable to me. I, it helps me to connect with people. And so I had to learn, this is something that is a gift, being a psychologist. I'm going to accept this. And. In doing so, it enabled me to find the joy in being a psychologist. Being able to accept that I am naturally a sensitive person, I connect with my client's emotions, enabled me to then move to this place of change. And what that looked like was Oh, I've just had a full on session and I want to cry and, oh, hang on, I'm noticing I've taken on this person's emotions.

Oh, even, even more, I've actually taken on a bit of their trauma here. I have an hour now to my next session. I need to do my techniques. I need to do certain strategies to help me process that rather than old me, which was, well, you're a psychologist. You shouldn't feel that emotion for that person. That's their emotion. Block that off, get over it, move to the next client. destroyed my joy of psychology. So being able to be this like re reformed joy psychologist, regaining my joy. uh, helped me to fall in love with being a psychologist again. And speaking of the last topic we just did, finding my joy, being able to accept that I feel joy with clients, or that feel sadness, and that it's okay to express that too, where appropriate of course, has not only enabled me to feel joy in my job, It's enabled me to be far more authentic within the space itself and I'm noticing that clients are reacting to me in a much more authentic way for them as well.

So reclaiming joy has been integral to me remaining in this profession and will probably... it will probably keep me in this profession actually. Again, being able to accept that this is what I require to be able to be a successful therapist, or authentic therapist, or genuine therapist, and then move to that place of change and apply those strategies that enable me to process, you know, what I've just felt has really helped me to reclaim that joy.

[00:29:05] Bronwyn: Thank you so much for sharing that. It's really inspiring to hear about your journey actually, and how you came to accept your own sensitivities and just who you are as a person as integral to the role rather than something you need to discard. Because I think like, I'm going to say like the old psychology, I feel like old psychology is like, you should remain unaffected by clients. You should never cry with your clients. You should never cry in groups, you should keep them at arm's length. I feel like that is the teachings of old psychology.

[00:29:35] Matt: a hundred percent. I, I actually have a memory of a previous supervisor telling me, I went to supervision, I provided them with a case example of somebody who was disclosing their trauma to me. And it was so traumatic. I wanted to cry with them as a way to demonstrate my empathy because I really couldn't find the words. And this person was just shutting in on themselves. They had also never actually disclosed their trauma to anybody. I was the first person to hear that. So that was huge moment for them.

I remember bringing this to a supervisor and the supervisor said to me, the best thing that you did in that moment was not show emotion. And I thought, Wait. What? I'm actually not proud of myself for not crying with them. I'm, I'm not proud of myself for that. But you're telling me I should be? And so I totally see your point around that kind of classical old school drag uh, drag.

[00:30:42] Bronwyn: Old school drag psychology. Yeah, that one.

[00:30:46] Matt: Watch the previous episode, people. Um, um, coming back to the point. I totally see your point around that classical old school psychology where it might be appropriate for some people and that maybe that's how they work and that's totally fine, at the same time, it doesn't always work and really isn't appropriate for every moment.

It's okay to express emotions to clients, I mean, think about how normalizing it could be for somebody who feels shame around crying for then you to perhaps tear up and express crying and the pain that you feel for them. How normalizing, validating, uncomfortable, for sure, and how validating that actually might be for them. So go for it. Throw yourself into it. I say.

[00:31:41] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, I completely agree. And I think one thing that I wanted to bring up as well was that very early on, we did an episode with James. James was fantastic. James did some research on emotional processing for psychologists. And we were talking a lot about surface emotions and deep emotions and how to manage the emotional labor of being a psychologist.

And I remember from that episode, he was saying that we actually do need to process it if we hold it in and we don't have any way of processing our emotions. It's kind of the way... the picture I have in my head is just of the emotional labor getting bigger and bigger and bigger until burst.

So I do think that. Old psychology may have suited some people, but for me, and it sounds like for you as well, it's like, we are deeply affected by our clients and the content that they share with us and the process that we go through in sessions. And it's really important to be able to acknowledge that and not be like, I'm so stoic and unaffected.

It's like, no, I'm a human. And like hearing that pain pained me.

[00:32:43] Matt: Yes and that provides me with a sense of joy too, I'm, I'm being honest, I'm acting on my values. As a person, as an individual, as a human being, I'm acting on my values by expressing to my clients, or if it may not be appropriate, expressing it within supervision or peer consultation that, Hey, this person affected me or what you're telling me is affecting me or the opposite, what you're telling me. I feel so happy for you. I feel so joy. I want to get up and dance. Should we just get up and dance? Yeah, Being able to express that emotion enables me to feel joy within the career as well.

[00:33:30] Bronwyn: I think that's a great summary and I feel the same way. It's like, I don't want to just be able to express happiness with my clients. I also want to express sadness. Like for example, let's say a client is sharing something kind of painful to me but they kind of laugh it off. And they're like, Oh, I like this happened, this traumatic...

...and for me, I might say, I notice we laughed about this just a moment ago, but I actually noticed a deep sense of sadness well up in me when I hear you say that, what's, what's your response to that? What's it like to hear that? And I feel like that can be a really powerful moment in therapy to really share that because it can help them be like, like they might say, I, I've, I've never thought it was serious enough. And you saying that really opens it up for me to be like, yeah, that, that actually makes me feel sad too. I never was able to feel sad for myself with that experience. Boom.

[00:34:25] Matt: Isn't, isn't a part of therapy, if not all therapies. Uh, people to their emotional experience, right? Being able say, hey, your emotions are normal. Did you know that? They're Yeah, They're okay. You know um, type of message and part of it is validating. Sure. Part of it's psycho ed. Sure. Part of it's this and this and this. And don't forget we're also in the room. We are a huge part of clients lives. We actually are.

We can use ourselves as ways to teach that emotion. We can do it through mirroring. We can do as you're describing by expressing, Oh, I'm noticing this pop up when you said this, can we explore that?

There are so many different ways that as therapists, we can connect with our clients and be able to get them to a space where they could feel joy or sadness or something by using us, the relationship.

[00:35:28] Bronwyn: Absolutely. So I guess to summarize maybe your reclaiming of your joy. Would it be that you accepted who you are, accepted how important clients are to you and their experiences? Is there anything else you wanted to change or add with that summary?

[00:35:47] Matt: I would also add, I accepted a psychologist's psychology, so what I mean by that is, psychology is going to have uh, or being a psychologist, working with people is going to have moments of joy and it's going to have moments of anger and disgust and sadness, fear, shame. I could keep going. I could list every emotion actually.

[00:36:15] Bronwyn: Annoyance.

[00:36:16] Matt: oh, oh, guilt, guilt, um, uh, Embarrassment, knowing I'm somebody to do this skill and I don't do it.

[00:36:25] Bronwyn: Oh God. I, when you said embarrassment, I literally like the flash I had in my mind was like, once I had my fly of my jeans slightly undone session, and then the client was like, your fly is undone. And I was like, I am so embarrassed right now. nothing revealed. I'm not flashing myself to my clients, everyone.

yeah, that's what came up for me when you said embarrassment. So yes, sometimes there is embarrassment.

[00:36:48] Matt: hey, you found the joy in it.

[00:36:51] Bronwyn: Yeah, we had a laugh about it and I was like, Oh God.

[00:36:53] Matt: So um, again, I guess accepting that psychology is psychology, joy, just like any other emotion, it comes and it goes. It will be here. I don't want to hold on to it when it does. I want to allow it to go. And when the other emotions come through, I want to allow them to come through too. I want those emotions to have their space, to have their time.

And I'll process them, whether that's by myself, in supervision, etc. I think also um, and such a trick, I, I didn't invent this, but I'll definitely claim that I did. at my desk, on my desk, on the wall, or just on the desk itself, I have things that clients have written, so uh, if a client writes me a letter within therapy, or perhaps um, like a Christmas card... in group therapies at the end, we do like little warm and fuzzies, Constantinas and you know, people within the group write really nice messages to each other.

I include myself in it because I'm part of the process I pin those on my wall. Everything that is nice that a client has said about me, I pin on my wall. It is right in my face. Every time I look up or to my left or right, there is something being said about me from a client that they've experienced in the moment.

And I also do that so that when I am in that sadness, shame, guilt, anger, kind of mode, when joy has been lost, I'm able to look around me and see moments where clients have had the aha. Or they've had a breakthrough or perhaps some, it's not even the message. Perhaps it's, I know which client wrote this and I miss them. That was really fun. You know what? That time I worked with that person, they were awesome. And, oh my God, they achieved this and this, and that brings up the joy for me. So that's, that's another trick I kind of have again, didn't invent it, but, uh, you heard it here first, I did.

[00:39:00] Bronwyn: I'm so glad you brought that up because I don't display my things, but I've got a positive file of notes, cards, and I also save emails if I get positive emails. And if I get gifts, when I used to work for a service where it was paid by the government, I used to actually get a lot of gifts that clients made at the end of therapy, because I just wanted to show their thanks and make something.

So I've kept that all in my office and I love having that around, but I agree that that is a huge sense of joy for me, because one of the things I wanted to bring up was that in my own journey of losing some joy and reclaiming that joy. One of the things I needed to let go of was being hard on myself. Like I was just an asshole to myself about how I was doing sessions. And I would judge the end of the day and I'd be like, that was a shit session. I could have done better. How crap was that? I should have done better for that client. And I'd beat myself up about it continuously and forget all the wonderful things that clients have said to me and all the things that they had written.

And so a key thing of keeping joy for me is not being an asshole to myself essentially. I'm like, did did you, did you show up and were you present for your client? Did you care about them? Did you try to do something in their benefit? Then you win. You did a great session. Good job. Like, woohoo. Like, I know like as a fellow perfectionist, I wonder if that's something that you've, that you share or that you've struggled with.

[00:40:31] Matt: Um, yes. What a universal experience, right? I think that like, perfectionists or people with unrelenting standards, there really is that feeling of like, You know, the client is like 10/10 happy. Everything is achieved, like, no fires. And we're still like, do you know what? One point I lifted my pinky finger and I'm a horrible human for doing that.

[00:40:55] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely. Terrible therapist forever.

[00:40:58] Matt: Yeah. Right.

[00:40:59] Bronwyn: It's a really like direct way to suck the joy out of work. Just FYI, everyone.

[00:41:04] Matt: Yes! Actually, that's a great tip. I really like that, Bron. If you, as a psychologist, want to remove joy and burnout, be really critical, yeah. Look everything that you did wrong.

[00:41:18] Bronwyn: Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. 100%. And, and equally to, to not like joy work, it's like, be kind to yourself and realize that you're doing a great job.

[00:41:29] Matt: Self compassion is a thing, apparently. Um, And, and I, I really like what you're saying. I want to add to that as well, that sometimes if I've had a rough session, or perhaps I've had a session where I have had to be really honest, you know, about something somebody said or something along those lines and Afterwards I have to really tell myself, I acted in line with what the board says a psychologist is, right? I have brought no harm or risk to this person. Uh, person is safe, sure. I was honest and maybe that person didn't need to hear, didn't want to hear that, sorry. And at the same time, like, I, the world keeps spinning.

You I'm not a horrible, terrible person, just because this person cried in session, you know, I didn't make them cry, like, it's okay to, to have moments as a therapist, to even go, I have no idea what I'm doing. I actually have, I've got no idea. Uh, and rather than falling into that spiral of like failure pit, we can kind of come out of that and go, well, the person's safe. Like, haven't ruined them, I haven't ruined the way they think about psychologists,

Yeah. Yes. I haven't destroyed psychology as a profession, I haven't ruined their world, know? Okay, I'm, I'm being really harsh on myself here then, what's that about?

[00:43:01] Bronwyn: Yes. What's that about exactly? Yes. That is something to explore, but I think you're right. It's like you do what you can as a psychologist and we do a lot. We do a lot just by showing up for someone and giving them a nonjudgmental space. That's a lot. That's a lot. They might not get that any other place in their whole lives.

Like, it's a lot.

[00:43:21] Matt: Agreed. Something that uh, and would actually even venture out to say this was the thing that I struggled the most with the most in psychology, was accepting that I'm fallible.

Ooh. Right? And I feel like that's a whole different discussion. You know, everyone tune in for the next episode, but um, learning that as psychologists, as humans, but as psychologists, we are fallible. We can make mistakes. Um, we, we can say something, we, we might even raise an eyebrow. It could be something like that, that uh, you know, could be interpreted a certain way by a client, et cetera, et cetera. And that we're fallible. We make mistakes. We can repair the relationship. We can recover. We can come in the next session and instead of hiding and say, I based my eyebrow at you last week and I'm, I'm actually feeling really guilty about it. I would love to know how you feel. I feel really guilty. I feel like I've, I've maybe even like offended you. Can we, can we explore this?

You know, so even just accepting I'm fallible, I'll make mistakes. Also contributed to kind of reclaiming that joy as well.

[00:44:33] Bronwyn: Such a great, such a great point. I'm so glad that that was a process for you and helped you reclaim your joy. And I think that speaks to the point as well, that not all things we do in therapy is going to be pleasant. So not going to bring up good emotions like how you were saying before, we may need to empathically confront clients.

And that is part of our role. Keeping boundaries. We may have some clients who have never been shown how to set appropriate boundaries for themselves or keep themselves safe and we need to help be that person who helps with that and, and sometimes that's not pleasant, but, but doing that can help us keep in touch with ourselves, our emotions, and help us do what we need to do for the job.

[00:45:17] Matt: I completely agree with you as a uh, intensively DBT trained psychologist

[00:45:24] Bronwyn: Yeah, DBT, you do that a lot, right? Yeah.

[00:45:26] Matt: it's part of the model. It's actually highest form of validation is empathy, but it's, it's known as uh, we refer to that stage or the highest form of validation as equality.

[00:45:39] Bronwyn: Oh, lovely.

[00:45:40] Matt: and so it's being able to say to somebody or kind of, you know, go where angels fear to tread. Hey, when you yell at me in session, it doesn't make me want to work with you. Or, um, hey, you know, last session I noticed you were really teary. I, I feel really, like, guilty. I feel shameful. Um, I feel like we need to kind of work this out. I feel like you don't like me and I don't like you right now. We need to work this out. This is not going to help you get what you're wanting to get. know, kind going there. Um, not that, that, works in every , treatment or for every psychologist...

[00:46:19] Bronwyn: yeah,

[00:46:19] Matt: ...but as somebody who works with people who are at risk kind of every hour on the day, finding that joy is crucial in being able to then be equal or show equality within sessions like that .

[00:46:35] Bronwyn: yeah. So it's really not looking down on them and like in the DBT model so I'm not intensively trained in DBT, but my understanding of that would be that it's helpful for clients to understand how they affect other people and how their behavior affects other people and to resolve that interpersonally.

[00:46:51] Matt: Yes. Right. And, also to add onto what you're saying that equally we also affect people...

[00:46:58] Bronwyn: yes, 100%.

[00:46:59] Matt: right? Like even just being in the therapy room, let's say we're not even saying, let's say we're silent, that is sending a message.

[00:47:08] Bronwyn: it is.

[00:47:08] Matt: Right. And I have no idea how that client will interpret that and I'm also affecting them, they're affecting me. And so being able to be in that space where you can be honest or empathic, there is a sense of joy in that. That's my experience of it.

[00:47:29] Bronwyn: I think so. And I think like being confident in your model and your therapy model as well, that, that brings me a lot of joy and reassurance. Like, so I'm very much, listeners will know by now, I'm very into schema therapy and I love the schema model. And so like, it brings me a lot of joy to be able to be reassured by that model, which I, Very much believe in which at its core is that some people don't have their core needs met growing up and this creates ways of viewing the world, which they've tried to survive with, which when we bring it into the present might not be the most helpful way of getting their needs met. So we need to try and change those patterns to get their needs met more effectively. And for me, like I wholeheartedly believe in that model and it does bring me a lot of joy to be able to share that with clients. And I, I imagine it's quite similar with the DBT model.

[00:48:14] Matt: Oh, totally. And it's, it's funny that you say that I've recently um, the research on like DBT with schema

[00:48:22] Bronwyn: Oh cool!

[00:48:23] Matt: actually some pretty good research. Early get me wrong, days, but there's some great research. It's motivated me to think about getting formally trained in Schema. I really Schema, similar to you. Um, thinking about it actually the other day, a reflection I had from a session. With a client who uh, for the first time ever was able to describe like what their healthy adult mode looks what they would yeah, what they would like that mode to I, I teared up. I, teared up

[00:48:58] Bronwyn: I think that's really beautiful.

[00:49:00] Matt: Thank you. I yeah. Yeah. to see this person who, you know, kind of was on the other end of that and was like, my life's over, to be able to be in session with them and them describing, this is how I see my healthy adult mode and I would really like to get there was like, oh my gosh, it was just so tearful. And I was more than happy to, Express that to them because it brought me so much joy of like, Oh my God, we got there.

[00:49:31] Bronwyn: That is so beautiful. I really love that and I'm so glad you were able to share that emotion with the client as well. It sounds like a very special moment.

[00:49:38] Matt: Yes. And then they started crying and it was Oh my gosh, we've been together for a while now and this is really lovely. And I'm so proud of you. And it was just five minutes of like, this is great.

[00:49:51] Bronwyn: Yeah and it's, it's those moments that, that really keep us through and something to remember as well.

So, Matthew, I feel like, I feel like we could talk about this forever, but I feel, I wonder if the listeners could listen to it forever. Send me an email if you want to listen to it but if you don't, let's, let's kind of go towards the end.

Is there anything that we haven't covered that you do want to cover before I ask you about what. advice you'd give to early career psychs?

[00:50:16] Matt: I think that we've kind of covered it all actually.

[00:50:20] Bronwyn: Yeah. Okay. There's only one thing that I wanted to add, which is like nagging at me. I was like, Oh, leave it out. now I'm like, no, I'll keep it in. So there's just one thing and it circles back to something that you were saying earlier. It was that you can't be joyful all the time.

So yeah, let the emotion come and go. And I was thinking that that's so important because if you try and hold onto joy all the time and you're like, Oh God, I love this job. How great is this job? Love this job so much. You're going to be missing out on other key emotions. And something that I'm really big on is listening to all emotions and seeing whether they have any wisdom for you, or they're alerting you to any needs that you need to explore or identify.

And I feel like for psychologists, we need to really listen. Let's say that you feel a sense of annoyance with a client. It's really important to not ignore that and be like, Hmm, is this my stuff or is this the client's stuff? Is it a bit of both? I wonder what that's about. Or let's say you feel annoyance, say at something administratively in your workplace.

You don't want to ignore that and be like, Oh, my workplace is so fantastic. It's like, no, listen to that. What's happening there? So that's just like, I want to bring up like, you know, Any, for anybody listening, it's like, just listen to all your emotions. They're all good.

[00:51:36] Matt: I love that. Now I'm definitely going to add on to this...

[00:51:40] Bronwyn: yeah. Okay. Good.

[00:51:41] Matt: right? I, I know in psychology we have a tendency to categorize them as emotions as either positive or negative. And personally, I don't apply that judgment to emotions. I think emotions are emotions.

Yeah. Right? And they are messages. I mean, that's what we teach clients, right? That there are messages. Listen to them. And so, as therapists, we need to also listen to our emotions, as you're saying. And if we are to Hold on to one particular emotion, whether that's joy or anger with a particular client, or, or, shame about our competency with a client, right? If we're to hold on to that particular emotion, we miss all the other cascade of emotions that we get to experience as human beings. We are so lucky as humans. We get to have these These things called emotions, we get to have these things that tell us that we like something, or we don't, or that we're curious about that, or that we love it. We, we get to feel that. And so I would definitely encourage people similar to what you're saying that um, emotion is popping up.

It's so okay. Allow it to be there. Be curious about it, right? Be curious about that emotion, about what it might be bringing up. Take it to supervision. Take it to peer consultation. Take it to a diary. I don't know you if you things, right?

[00:53:14] Bronwyn: Yeah. Totally.

[00:53:15] Matt: take it to something so that you're able to allow those emotions to have their space. And if you don't feel joy, I don't know, but potentially doing that might actually enable the joy to come through, or for you to actually allow yourself to feel that joy.

[00:53:34] Bronwyn: Yes. I agree. So Matt, what would you say to an early career psych who is worried about becoming disillusioned or losing the joy with their job. So let's say the, yeah, they are early in their career and they're like, gosh, I don't want to become one of those people who just clocks in, clocks out, and just talk shit about their clients.

[00:53:56] Matt: I would say, accept. I would say, accept that Potentially being disillusioned or burnt out or losing the joy could be a real part of psychology for you. And that that's okay, it's not the end of your career necessarily. And that it might be helpful then, similar to what I did, to move to a place of change after acceptance and to think about, okay, well, When I do become disillusioned, when I do lose the joy, what do I want to say to myself? How do I want to feel about myself? How do I want to feel about my clients? How do I want to, how do I want to operate as a psychologist? Kind of cushioning yourself or safety netting yourself for when that does happen. So again, applying more of that kind of reality acceptance that this could happen rather than perhaps, Oh, it'll never happen.

Oh, it'll be fine. You know, like I'm, I'm a good therapist.

[00:55:07] Bronwyn: Yes.

[00:55:09] Matt: I don't know what means. I still don't know what good therapist means.

[00:55:12] Bronwyn: No, I mean, yeah, a whole nother podcast episode. I got no clue. I, I really like what you've said there and I think that's the perfect place to end. I think that's a beautiful ending.

So Matthew, thank you so much for coming on the podcast to talk about this really important topic. We really covered a lot of different dimensions.

I think we did a good job.

[00:55:31] Matt: I 100 percent agree.

[00:55:34] Bronwyn: Yes. Yeah. Virtual high five.

[00:55:36] Matt: Do you know what? Maybe this is what a good therapist is. I don't maybe, know

[00:55:43] Bronwyn: I hope so. Yeah, well, I'll track that as a definition. Matthew, if listeners want to get in touch with you or find out more about you, where can they find you?

[00:55:52] Matt: So, uh, if you haven't listened to the last episode, I also do drag. Sorry if that's a surprise to you. Also watch the last episode, link is in the bio, so you can find me on Instagram at my drag account, which is at Matilda Mercury Queen. I now and then post psychology related things.. Otherwise, usually my page is very just like queer friendly and authentic.

[00:56:19] Bronwyn: Sounds amazing. And I'll pop up those links in the show notes and I'll pop the link to Matthew's previous episode as well, but do go check out their Instagram. Very fabulous.

[00:56:29] Matt: born fabulous. It's me to not be stunning. You know, it's hard being a visually beautiful person.

[00:56:38] Bronwyn: I mean, it's clearly like what a curse you've been born with.

[00:56:42] Matt: I know it's so difficult.

[00:56:45] Bronwyn: Well, thank you again, Matthew. It's been a pleasure to have you on and listeners. Thank you so much for listening. If you ever want to get in touch with me, send me an email at mentalworkpodcast@gmail.com. I'd love to hear what you think of the episode, Nita. I'm looking forward to your email. And thank you so much, everyone else.

Okay. Have a good one. Take care and catch you next time. Bye.