Danielle's Story

[00:00:05] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers. You're listening to the Mental Work Podcast, your companion to early career psychology, and I'm your host, Dr. Bronwyn Milkins, and today we have a listener story.

[00:00:15] In a listener story episode. We hear from one early career psychologist about their journey towards registration, the learnings they picked up along the way and where they're headed in the future.

[00:00:25] This is a real life, relatable conversation and here to share their story with us is Danielle Rancey. Hi, Danielle.

[00:00:33] Danielle: Hi Bronwyn, thanks for having me.

[00:00:36] Bronwyn: It's such a pleasure to have you here, Danielle. Danielle, could you please tell listeners who you are and what your non psychology passion is?

[00:00:43] Danielle: Uh, well my name's Danielle Rancey and I am a psychologist and my passion would probably be singing and dancing, but mostly singing I think.

[00:00:53] Bronwyn: So cool. What do you love singing?

[00:00:56] Danielle: Country music for sure.

[00:00:57] Bronwyn: Amazing. What kind of country music? I really like music. So I'm just going to ask you more about it.

[00:01:03] Danielle: No, of course, I welcome that. Um, well, I've spent a lot of time in the States and in country Australia and things like that. So honestly, anything, but I mean, it goes so far as to loving Willie Nelson and Dolly Parton and then all the way up to, you know, Taylor Swift before she turned pop.

[00:01:19] Bronwyn: Interesting. That's so cool. Gosh, singing. How long have you been singing for?

[00:01:24] Danielle: Probably my whole life really. I grew up doing it with my sisters and things like that. Um, I did it professionally for a little while, um, until I found my passion around psychology a little bit more, but yeah, probably my whole life. Yeah.

[00:01:37] Bronwyn: Wow. That's so cool. I just love singing. I love dancing. I just feel like the two just go together so well.

[00:01:43] Danielle: Yes, absolutely. I will get a boogie on anytime I possibly could.

[00:01:47] Bronwyn: Yeah. No. Wonderful. And Danielle, thank you so much again for coming onto the podcast and sharing with us your listener story. So let's just start out with, could you please share with us your journey to registration as a psychologist? So which pathway did you take and where did you do your placements?

[00:02:07] Danielle: So I took the 4 plus 2 pathway, uh, and I did a lot of my internship in private practices across Southeast Queensland.

[00:02:16] Bronwyn: Wonderful. And could you tell us a bit about the process of going through the 4 plus 2 pathway? I did the 5 plus 1 pathway. My understanding is that the 4 plus 2 is similarly quite onerous. Uh, you're learning a lot on the fly. You have a lot of supervision. There's a lot of professional development. How did you find the process?

[00:02:38] Danielle: Grueling, for sure.

[00:02:41] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:02:41] Danielle: Think, I think a lot of people would speak to the fact that it was very, uh, Very grueling and it takes over your life a lot of the time, uh, but it was also very, really rewarding. I, I do recall my first session, uh, I had to work with some kids and I had to suddenly transform all of my knowledge that I'd learned in university and then really break it down into very simple concepts for kids to understand. And that was a whole new language development for me that I had to go through, uh, in terms of the internship. So it was, it was quite interesting. It was very stressful but I'm very much glad that it's over.

[00:03:18] Bronwyn: And what prompted you to get into psychology? Like what was the kind of inciting event to being like, I'm going to be a psychologist.

[00:03:25] Danielle: Honestly, I don't think that I ever planned to become a psychologist, it was really just wanting to lean about myself and that's why I went to uni, I just wanted to understand myself and understand people a little bit more. And it was just around following that energy and that was something my mom actually always told me growing up you know when you're picking electives and things like that you don't quite know what you want to do in high school she would just say well follow the energy darling just follow where it is and so that's what I did until it's led me here and it's it's worked out well I suppose.

[00:03:58] Bronwyn: Wonderful. And I guess going into the 4 plus 2 pathway. What was your expectation? Did you have it in mind that it would be always wonderful and rainbows? What were you thinking?

[00:04:11] Danielle: I probably did a bit naively think that it would, yeah, think that it would be a little bit easier than it was, uh, because you can get very, um, caught up in the clients and things like that. You're also trying to earn a living and there's so many expenses to it as well with supervision and professional development.

[00:04:29] But I had to be a little bit scrappy about it, like I joined the APS, the local APS group and committee so that I could attend all of the PD, so I wasn't having to pay for PD, but I was getting really quality education around those types of topics and, and I loved that, but yeah, it was definitely very gruelling.

[00:04:47] Bronwyn: I'm so glad you brought that up because I have a previous episode on how to, I guess, gain registration when you're tight for money. And that's one of the tips that I shared because I think volunteering for the APS or another professional association is fantastic because yet you do get free professional Development, and you get to be around other peers, which is really lovely. And you can feel quite supported.

[00:05:11] Danielle: Absolutely, so part of my role on the committee was that I was running monthly online peer committee meetings and so I was working with senior psychologists all around me and I would bring case studies to them so it was this added supervision, added kind of encouragement and professional development that really, really nurtured me as a practitioner.

[00:05:31] Bronwyn: Wonderful. And were there any other parts of your journey towards registration which stand out for you as these were truly the best?

[00:05:39] Danielle: I think there's some clients that we all have in mind that really just stick with you and you feel sometimes as though you're not necessarily making a difference. And then you've got these clients that come along and you just think, okay, if I'm able to hold space for this person or this child, because I was working with children a lot early on, I think if you can hold space for them, then that just becomes a really, really rewarding, benefit.

[00:06:04] Bronwyn: Yeah. So you had a few clients where you were like, wow, I feel my work is making a difference.

[00:06:10] Danielle: Hundred percent. Yes. And that's when it becomes... the feedback that we get around recognizing that we are making a bit of a difference, because sometimes we don't always get that right and we're plodding along and we're hoping we're doing really wonderful things with our clients and that they're seeing change and we're seeing change. Uh, but when you can really feel that and that's internalized, I think that that's just such a rewarding experience.

[00:06:32] Bronwyn: I totally agree. As you were talking, I had the images of like the clients that I feel have made a difference. And in the early days of being a provisional psych, I worked in a service where my clients received free counseling. It was a government based service. And so as a gesture of their appreciation at times, my clients would give me a gift, like a small gift, um, to thank me. And it's like, I still have those gifts in my office, but it was so encouraging as a provisional psych just to know, Oh, wow, people appreciate what they're doing. We're doing here. Wow.

[00:07:04] Danielle: Absolutely, because we're dealing with imposter syndrome throughout the whole process.

[00:07:09] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

[00:07:10] Danielle: So when you receive that kind of external validation, it feels really good. We're still human.

[00:07:16] Bronwyn: I'm really glad that you had those positive interactions with young people. Was it only young people who you worked with during your 4 plus 2 or did you work with adults or older adults?

[00:07:26] Danielle: It was predominantly kids, but part of the, the 4 plus 2 is that you need to work across the lifespan, right? And so I was seeing adults, I was seeing a lot of teens as well, but I definitely had a very, uh, you know, under 12, heavy caseload for a significant period there. Uh, but then I was able to balance it out a little bit, and I was doing the equine therapy as well which kids and families are attracted to a lot of the time.

[00:07:49] Bronwyn: Absolutely. And listeners, we're going to get into equine therapy a little bit later because Danielle's really excited about it. I'm excited about it and we will do a deep dive into that.

[00:07:58] One of the things I'm interested in, Danielle, is with the, with the positives of the 4PLUS2, I usually ask folks who have gone through their journey to registration what supervision was like for them.

[00:08:10] And I'm just wondering if you could speak to, um, what you found good about supervision, what was helpful, how you navigated that.

[00:08:17] Danielle: Yeah, look, supervision was really great for me. I had the same primary supervisor throughout my entire internship, which was great. I also had a plethora of so many different secondary supervisors. I really tapped into organizations like the Provisional Psychologist Hub, the Provisional Psychologist Network, and I just loved all of those group supervisions.

[00:08:39] So then I was actually connecting with other provisionals at the same time. Which I just found so, so helpful because it can be really isolating, especially in private practice too as well. Yeah.

[00:08:50] Bronwyn: Yeah, you're such an exemplar of like, what I, what I usually say to listeners about how important community is, and just, if you don't have that, it can feel so isolating because there is so much imposter syndrome hey, when you're starting out, it's like, you need other people to ground you.

[00:09:06] Danielle: Oh, a hundred percent. It's scary. Right. And you, you're in this room. I know that for me, I felt so inadequate when I first started and thinking, how am I able to hold space for these people? I mean, I know I've got some lived experience. I've got the education and the professional side and everything.

[00:09:22] Bronwyn: It is really scary. One of the things that shocked me, I wonder if this resonates with you, was as a provisional psychologist, I just wasn't prepared for like the full range of human experience. And so somebody would come to me and I'll just give an example that's not a real one, but they would be like, I wanted to be an astronaut and then NASA declined my application and now I need to work in retail and I don't know what to do. And I would be like. Oh my God, I didn't even know this was a human experience, you know, like, I don't know if that's relatable to you.

[00:09:57] Danielle: No, absolutely. I honestly would be coming home or taking these clients to supervision and saying, I honestly, this is so new to me. I don't know what to do and how to help, but I'm going to try my best. And you just, you kind of fumble through a little bit to be perfectly honest for the first little while until you find your groove and you do find it because you just start to bring yourself into that space a little bit more and find that group to know what type of clients that you can really help as well.

[00:10:25] Bronwyn: absolutely. Let's move on to the challenges. And I do want to congratulate you before we move on to the challenges on gaining your general registration. Very proud of you.

[00:10:34] Danielle: Thank you. I'm very proud of me too. It was hard.

[00:10:37] Bronwyn: As you should be. It's so hard. It is so hard. I think like, yeah. And congrats on passing, like presumably you had to pass the national psych exam. Congrats on that.

[00:10:47] Danielle: Yes. I thought for sure I had failed. I honestly had already booked for the next sitting.

[00:10:53] Bronwyn: Really?

[00:10:53] Danielle: Yes. I really genuinely thought I had failed and then luckily I didn't. I, you know, passed on the first time. So I was very, very excited by that. Yes.

[00:11:01] Bronwyn: Amazing. It's, it's such a huge thing. And I always want to extend that congratulations because I think sometimes people outside of psychology, uh, maybe they, they see us, they see us doing the thing, but maybe they don't understand, truly understand the struggle, you know?

[00:11:16] Danielle: Absolutely, and I really appreciate that because there's no huge big party at the end of it, unless you do that for yourself.

[00:11:23] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:11:23] Danielle: Yeah.

[00:11:24] Bronwyn: Yeah. I would absolutely encourage everyone who's doing 4 plus 2, 5 plus 1, any, any pathway, throw yourself a party if no one else will.

[00:11:32] Danielle: Oh my goodness, absolutely, yeah, if you aren't going to, then who's going to, right? You're the one that's been through, through it all.

[00:11:39] Bronwyn: Yeah, I'm pretty sure after I passed the national psych exam, do you know that song, which is like celebrate good times, come on. And I was just like, yep, that's for me.

[00:11:49] Danielle: I love that, yeah, getting the singing and dancing out, right?

[00:11:52] Bronwyn: Exactly. Exactly. Okay. Challenges. Okay. So take us through what were some of the challenges you encountered during your pathway towards registration?

[00:12:03] Danielle: I think it was, you know, finances was a huge one as well as time commitment. So when you're working and trying to just live and eat and breathe, you don't have the energy after holding space for people all day long to then go and do a lot of the requirements and the assessments that you're supposed to.

[00:12:20] And so for me, I really decided in the first year that I wasn't going to focus on any, a lot of those things. I really just wanted to focus on the clients and getting to know my caseload and just take that pressure off. I had a lot of people around me that were really saying, okay, no, I have to get it done in the minimum amount of time, and I thought, nah, I'm taking my time here. Cause if I put that pressure on myself, it's just not going to be beneficial to me or to clients or anybody around me. So, so that was a huge challenge in terms of finances and time.

[00:12:50] Bronwyn: Yeah. Um, with that, could you tell us how long it took you to do the four plus two. So to go from starting it to gaining general registration.

[00:13:00] Danielle: So three and a half years in the end. Yeah. So it would have been around about two and a half, three years, but there was a few challenges along the way.

[00:13:09] Bronwyn: With the pressure, I've heard people speak to this before and they're like, it's four plus two, not four plus three. Like I got to get it done in two years. How did you speak to yourself in a way that was like, look, I don't have to do this. Um, how did you navigate that?

[00:13:25] Danielle: I think it was just exactly that. I just took the external pressure off and this. expectation within the profession that we have to get it done within that time. Yes, it's called the four plus two and that's the ideal amount of time, but you also have to live and be human. You have to leave space for that.

[00:13:42] And I, I definitely did maybe sometimes a little bit too much space. So it took me a little bit longer, but I honestly wouldn't change it because I really feel like that's the way that it needed to happen for me so that I could be a better practitioner. I could really just take my time.

[00:13:57] Bronwyn: No, I'm really glad you're saying that because I think listeners that will help them take the pressure off themselves as well. And listeners have heard me say before that my five plus one, supposed to be plus one, took me two years. So I feel like the, the plus two or the plus one, it's like the ideal if nothing happens in your life.

[00:14:16] Danielle: Absolutely. And a lot of, that's just not the case, right? A lot of people might have families or they might have, you know, partners, and they've got other things and other priorities and commitments they need to attend to as well. And so the ideal is, is the two years, if you can really dedicate a hundred percent of your time.

[00:14:33] I wasn't in a stage of life where that was the case for me and so I needed to take that pressure off and and in the end that really helped my mental health with it because yeah it is the four plus two and it can be grueling.

[00:14:45] Bronwyn: Totally and I'm so glad you spoke to mental health because it's really important for us to maintain our mental health when we're doing such a stressful pathway.

[00:14:52] Danielle: Absolutely, otherwise we're useless to everybody right? To our clients, our partners and that's it and so if we're not looking after ourselves as well at the end of the day then yeah we're just useless to everybody else.

[00:15:04] Bronwyn: Yeah, I would much rather someone take 5... 10 years to complete the 4 plus 2 than spend like 5 of those years chronically burnt out, you know?

[00:15:14] Danielle: Absolutely. And I think, I think that I will be honest, I started to feel the pressure when I got to about the two and a half, three year mark. And I thought, okay, well, you've got the five year minimum to get it done. Can I really get it done? You know, and, and keep paying for supervision and professional development and things like that. So that did start to become an internal pressure, but again, it's just about speaking to it, recognizing it, identifying it, and just, you know, coping through it really.

[00:15:41] Bronwyn: Yeah. So recognizing that, look, this is an internal pressure. Um, I'm noticing this sensation, but do I need to listen to this, that I need to do it this way? Or can I actually relax a bit and allow myself to take the time that it's going to take?

[00:15:55] Danielle: That's exactly right. And there was some times where I was saying it's okay to slow down. And then there was other times where I needed to be that coach for myself and say, okay, knuckle down a little bit for the next couple of months, especially in prep for the NPE for sure.

[00:16:10] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely. Yes. I similarly remember knuckling down. I was like, okay, yep, we gotta, we gotta study.

[00:16:15] Danielle: That's it. Yeah.

[00:16:16] Bronwyn: Yeah. Was there anything else that you wanted to tell us about navigating finances or navigating, um, the process of, of feeling pressured to complete it quickly?

[00:16:28] Danielle: I think in terms of finances, I think it's really important to just get quite scrappy about it. Like be really resourceful in the way that you can meet all of the requirements for the four plus two and just be really creative.

[00:16:41] Like I said, I went and joined the APS committee. So all my professional development was covered for the entire time. I found a supervisor that was really good and knew how to support me with the clients that I was seeing, but she was within a financial reach that could work for me and that I, that was sustainable.

[00:16:58] And so I think it's just a matter of really looking for those options and reminding yourself that you've got a choice. A lot of the time in the four plus two, we feel like, Oh, we have to take any job. We have to take any supervisor that will take us. And that's not necessarily the case. We still have that autonomy to choose.

[00:17:14] Bronwyn: Yeah. And, um, 100 percent I would back that up. It is still an employee's, market. So that means that there is not enough psychologists to go around. So employers want to make sure that they get recruiting people. They're finding it difficult to recruit. So even though you're a provisional psychologist and you may feel like bottom of the pile, you do actually have a bit of power in negotiating, selecting workplaces that suit you.

[00:17:38] Danielle: Absolutely. And I think that's something I didn't necessarily know when I first started, but I very quickly started. Yeah, that's it. But I quickly started to do a little bit of research. I was talking to peers. I was talking to supervisors and other employers and things like that and recognizing, okay, well, am I, am I in an ethical workplace? Do I need to change? Do I need a different supervisor? And I made the adjustments as I needed to for my story and my journey. And I think that that's really something that we need to take on board as provisionals so that we can follow that journey through in the way that is going to be beneficial for us.

[00:18:12] Bronwyn: Yeah. And I just want to add in for listeners as well. Listeners, if you're unsure, like, am I in an ethical workplace, do reach out to peers and just be like, Hey, I'm not really sure. I just want to check out this situation with you. I'm sure they would be delighted to help tell you. Um, there's probably nothing more than that senior psychologist love to do is to be like, that's unethical. So you'll, you'll find somebody who will tell you yes or no.

[00:18:33] Danielle: That's exactly right. And surrounding yourself with the right people and seeing your psychologist is also another really helpful thing to do so that you can start to gauge, okay, am I being taken advantage of here? Or am I in a really good position? And you know, and you, yeah. And so it's just a matter of gauging that. And sometimes when you're starting out that gauge needs to be the people around you.

[00:18:53] Bronwyn: Totally, cause you just don't know. So you may be in a, actually, you're not allowed to be employed as a contractor. Are you in the four plus two?

[00:19:00] Danielle: No, absolutely not. And yeah, yeah, absolutely not.

[00:19:03] Bronwyn: Okay, so that's one thing, like, if you are being offered a contract as a 4 plus 2, check it out with a senior psychologist, and they, if they're, if they're up to speed with what you can do and what you can't do, they'll be like, no, that's not allowed. Okay.

[00:19:17] Danielle: Yeah, exactly. And the other beautiful thing is that we pay for our insurances, right? So we've got access to legal services. So it could even be contacting one of the approved lawyers in your insurance plan and saying, okay, can I just get you to read over this and have it have a look so that I know what's ethical, what's appropriate, and they're going to have a better understanding from a legal side as well.

[00:19:38] Bronwyn: Yes, because again, like, we're not, we're not lawyers, so it's so helpful having that.

[00:19:43] Danielle: Absolutely, definitely not a lawyer and wouldn't want to be in too hard.

Dealing with a notification

[00:19:47] Bronwyn: Sounds like a very stressful job as well. Okay. And so something we're talking about off air, Danielle, was that you went through an AHPRA complaint process from a former employer, um, which held up your general registration. And, listeners, we don't need to go into the details. So we're just going to focus on how Danielle felt during the complaints process because, um, I don't think we talk about this enough, the complaints process, and I think immediately listeners if you have just felt very frightened, so normal, because I think, I think a lot of people just feel so frightened, so I'm really grateful Danielle that you want to share with us how you felt during this complaints process and maybe you could speak a little bit to that.

[00:20:25] Danielle: Of course. Look, I have become so passionate about wanting to talk about this so that we can reduce that stigma around it. And that fear that you just spoke of is something that came up in me when it happened and it was the day before I was applying for general registration. I got the note.

[00:20:42] Bronwyn: Oh my gosh, you poor thing.

[00:20:44] Danielle: So I was devastated. I was, I had all of the emotions. I was angry. I was confused. I was disappointed. I was so scared. And it was really a horrible couple of weeks. And this is right before Christmas too at the time as well. And so.

[00:20:59] Bronwyn: Gosh, oh my gosh, what a, what a horrible time, like not only like the day before like planning to apply but around Christmas it's like supposed to be happy, supposed to be like this is a celebratory thing for me and to just have all of that ripped away from you.

[00:21:13] Danielle: That's exactly what it felt like. And it became, Oh, I need to actions speaking to a lawyer. I need to get all the evidence and I need to prepare my statement for AHPRA and things like that. And so it definitely wasn't a relaxing time. It was very stressful.

[00:21:28] Bronwyn: So stressful. And so, um, How did you cope with that? So you mentioned like, I have to do a statement. I have to get evidence. What supports did you have to help you with that?

[00:21:39] Danielle: So I immediately reached out to my lawyer. I immediately reached out to AAPI, who was just amazing. They got me linked in with about 10 or so practitioners that volunteered to speak with me their own complaints process. And so I was like, Spending all day, every day, kind of talking to anyone that was willing to listen, to hear, the details of what was going on in terms of the complaint and trying to get some advice as to how to move forward.

[00:22:10] And so I just, I'm so thankful for those people that gave me that time and that space to do that and to really seek support from senior psychologists that had been through the process. And so I just didn't stay quiet in terms of my coping strategy. It was just, I reached out to anyone, professionally, ethically, anyone that I could that was willing to kind of give me some advice so that I knew how to handle this and what steps to take to move forward.

[00:22:37] Bronwyn: Wow. I'm so glad that you're able to have that support because I imagine that maybe one of the first thoughts that someone could have when they receive a complaint is like, I've done something wrong, I'm a bad therapist and maybe I feel quite a bit of shame. I wonder if that happened for you?

[00:22:56] Danielle: Absolutely. That big shame shield came up and I thought, Oh, you know, I don't, I don't want to, I don't want to necessarily tell, uh, fellow practitioners. I don't want to tell my, my current employer. I thought, Oh, I can't say anything.

[00:23:09] And it was added too, because I was a provisional. And so I thought this isn't even happening to me as a general or a clinical psychologist and being fully registered. I'm a provisional and I didn't know anybody that had been, that had gone through the complaints process as a provisional.

[00:23:26] So the shame shield came up big and strong for me. And it really was a matter of, okay, I need to barge through this shame shield because, um, I can't do this on my own. I really needed the support.

[00:23:40] The, the beautiful thing for me though, was that I kind of knew that my ethical practice was okay. So I had all of the evidence to suggest that this complaint could be dealt with quite quickly and that there was just a bit of a misunderstanding. And so in terms of that, I thought, okay, no, I'm all right. I'm all good. It's all good. But it was still just so scary. And you just feel like, You know, the big bad psychology board is going to come and scrutinize your work and make you feel like you're a bad practitioner. But that wasn't necessarily my experience at all. But initially, when you found out it was just all fear and all shame that came up.

[00:24:16] Bronwyn: Yeah. So speaking to the other practitioners who have been through complaints process, did that help alleviate that shame a little bit?

[00:24:24] Danielle: Absolutely. So one of the, the best pieces of advice that I got from a few of the practitioners was that They really saw the complaints process as a way to identify areas of their practice where they were perhaps lacking, they needed professional education on, and it was all of them came back to me and said it ended up being a really positive experience.

[00:24:44] And so that took that Negative energy I had about, Oh, I'm, I'm need to be fearful of this organization that's going to come and attack my work and things like that. It just became a process. It really kind of objectified it a little bit and just allowed me to process it for what it was. It was, it was just that process.

[00:25:04] Bronwyn: Yeah, so it sounds like rather than it being a reflection of who you are, and I guess a negative perception of who you are, it was a, a distance thing. It's like, okay, they're the regulator, they have to do this job. This is a procedural thing, so they want the evidence from me, and then I will present my side and it'll be, you know, once we work out this misunderstanding, it will be okay.

[00:25:23] Danielle: That's exactly right and so that really alleviated a lot of that fear for me because I could distance myself from it. So you've said it perfectly, is that it allowed me to distance it so that I could just deal with it in a very methodical way and take out a lot of that emotion that had come up initially.

[00:25:39] Bronwyn: And so could you take us through some of the emotions after consulting with lawyer and preparing your statement? What was that like interacting with AHPRA from there on?

[00:25:52] Danielle: It was quite a neutral process to be perfectly honest. I felt like a lot of the time AHPRA is really just looking for your self reflection and ensuring that, you know, perhaps where you have done wrong or perhaps where you could be doing better or how you can be changing in that ethical practice. Again, I think it was a little bit different in my case in that, um, In terms of the complaint that was raised against me, I actually had done the ethical thing by the client and was able to manage a very risky situation in in that regard and so it allowed me to actually reflect on my practice and think, Oh no, I'm actually a good practitioner. I'm very ethical. I know what I'm doing. So that became a really rewarding process and, and helped me distance myself from it again and just realize, okay, this is procedural. Let's just get it done. Let's give them the facts so that this can be dealt with very quickly.

[00:26:42] Bronwyn: Yeah. Maybe that's something good for listeners to hear as well, that just because a complaint has been put in against you doesn't automatically mean that you have done something wrong.

[00:26:51] Danielle: That's exactly right. And so that was, I think that was probably the saving grace for me a little bit because I did feel initially like I had done something wrong, but as I spoke to other peers, as I gathered the evidence and my response to the complaint, I realized actually I wouldn't necessarily have changed that process or what had happened. And I am glad to know that I'm a very ethical practitioner. And so that was really rewarding and got me through the process.

[00:27:18] Bronwyn: Yeah. So how long did the process last for? Like how long did it hold up your registration essentially?

[00:27:24] Danielle: So this was something that I was very scared of because people had said it could take another 12 months. So I was thinking, I was, I was, I was devastated to think, okay, I'm going to be another provisional. Everything had been done. I had finished all my assessments. I thought, yeah, I'm going to be a provisional for another 12 months.

[00:27:44] I don't know if I necessarily want to do this anymore. I was feeling quite disheartened, but the process for me ended up being probably about five months, which I was really grateful for. So from the time of notification and only really a one back and forth with the AHPRA with my states and evidence, and then it was completely resolved near not long after, which I was so, so thankful for. And I applied for general registration the very next day.

[00:28:07] Bronwyn: Oh my gosh, amazing. Um, okay, so five months. So just because listeners probably aren't familiar with the outcomes of an investigation, like what was the official, was it just like no further action taken?

[00:28:20] Danielle: That's, that's exactly right. And it's, it's kind of the same with the, the NPE or when you do get your registration and things like that, they don't give you a lot of feedback. It's just either you pass or you fail. And this is the same. It was just no further action.

[00:28:34] The beautiful thing that again, was really rewarding for me was at the end of the email, it was this confirmation of yes, your, your ethical practice is up to standard and you've done nothing wrong necessarily. And so there's no further action for this. So that was really helpful because... you do, you just go through this churning process of thinking that you're bad, that your practice is bad and that was very helpful for me to have that and kind of put it to bed after that point.

[00:29:00] Bronwyn: Yeah, I think that's fantastic. And were there any other supports or resources that helped during that five months?

[00:29:08] Danielle: I think I just remained in contact with a lot of those people from AAPI and my, my supervisors and things like that, just to touch base and say, look, this is the update, the lawyer I was constantly involved with. So I think just getting guidance from outside of myself was what was really supportive as well as just remaining really close to my friends and my family, uh, who were going through the process with me entirely.

[00:29:35] Bronwyn: Yeah. Hmm. And what was it like explaining it to family, for instance, like people who, I, unless they are psychologists themselves, I'm just presuming that they are not, um, okay, sure. Um, but what's it like explaining it to outsiders?

[00:29:52] Danielle: So a lot of, a lot of, um, yeah, family were outraged and just really sad and disheartened for me and really just, Yeah, kind of helped me laugh away the details of it all and just helped me really stay focused on who I am as a practitioner. So I really sought support from colleagues that knew me and that have worked with me. And really they gave me a lot of reassurance during that time as well. But, and same as family, as best as they could, knowing the systems and knowing the processes that we go through, they did the best that they could to support me throughout that time as well.

[00:30:25] Bronwyn: Lovely. I'm glad to hear that. Danielle, how do you think of yourself now as a practitioner? because during the complaints process, sometimes our core belief about ourselves as a practitioner can change and it's like, well, maybe I am a terrible therapist. How do you think of yourself now?

[00:30:42] Danielle: I love that question. So I think I was, what was coming up with for me is, you know, I'm bad. I'm a failure. I'm not good enough. And I, I definitely feel like for me, I know I'm good enough. I know I'm really good at what I do. I know that I can hold space and I also know that I'm a really ethical practitioner.

[00:31:01] And so it really has instilled a great deal of confidence in me and the way that I work with clients. And so I'm, I'm actually really grateful. You know, you, you generally tend to... um, once you can become grateful for the trials and the experiences that you've been through, generally, that's when you know that they're over. And so I'm really grateful to have been through that experience, especially early in my career, so that I can now move forward and recognize that I am ethical. I'm a really good practitioner. Always wanting to learn, always willing and open for that, of course, but it didn't necessarily make me walk away thinking I'm bad, I'm not good enough.

[00:31:40] Bronwyn: Oh, well, I'm really pleased to hear that.

[00:31:42] Danielle: Thank you. Yeah, I'm, I'm pleased to be able to say that, which is, I love that question because I don't think I've necessarily reflected on that throughout the process. That's good.

[00:31:50] Bronwyn: ...good. I'm glad you can vocalize that. It's so nice to hear that, that. And it sounds like, like you believe it as well. Like it sounds very true for you.

[00:31:58] Danielle: Yes, absolutely. And I think if I'm not believing that, then who else is going to, right? It has to come from the self.

[00:32:06] Bronwyn: Danielle, is there anything that listeners need to know about AHPRA complaints, anything else or anything you wish you had known?

[00:32:14] Danielle: I think the thing that I would probably encourage anyone going through that complaints process is to recognize that you're not alone, to seek the support, reach out to other practitioners so that it doesn't become this really isolating, shame filled experience for yourself, and seek that support throughout the process.

[00:32:33] Also, while recognising that it is just that, it's a process and it's a procedure that needs to happen to manage the risk to the public and to practitioners, and I think that when you can distance yourself from it, that can be really helpful to take out the emotion and just go through the processes and make it a very methodical approach.

[00:32:53] Bronwyn: Mmm, absolutely. Thank you so for sharing that with us.

[00:32:57] Danielle: I hope it helps someone. Thank you. Yeah.

[00:33:00] Bronwyn: Absolutely. Yeah. I think we just don't talk about it enough and I'm really grateful that we can have that conversation about it.

[00:33:06] Danielle: I think it needs to be spoken about much more because I agree. I certainly didn't know anyone in my immediate circle that had been through the process. And I think it's such an important conversation to be having.

Equine therapy

[00:33:18] Bronwyn: Totally. Absolutely. Let's do a 360 and move on to equine therapy. Is that okay?

[00:33:26] Danielle: Absolutely.

[00:33:27] Bronwyn: Yay. Okay. Do you predominantly work as an equine therapist now?

[00:33:33] Danielle: So it's a bit of a mix for me. So I do room based as well as doing equine therapy as well. And I'm kind of in a few different locations at the moment, but it's a bit of half and half.

[00:33:43] Bronwyn: Okay. So what is it and then how did you get into it?

[00:33:46] Danielle: Okay. So equine psychotherapy is really around bringing the horses into, or if it's any animal assisted process as well. Um, but equine therapy is around bringing the animals into that therapeutic process with the clients to support them, to help them regulate, um, And we can talk a little bit more to that as we go on, but I got into it specifically cause I've loved animals my entire life. And I was able to just marry my two passions, which was around mental health and animals and just put them together and they just compliment each other, one another so well. And I just love it.

[00:34:25] Bronwyn: Why horses? What's so good about horses?

[00:34:27] Danielle: They are just They are just majestic animals and beautiful teachers and, and master regulators too, of their own nervous system. So they can just teach us so much about how to regulate.

[00:34:39] Bronwyn: Wow. And with like coming into it, so you say you love animals. Have you always loved horses specifically?

[00:34:45] Danielle: Uh, horses and dogs are probably my favorite, but all animals, I mean, I'm not going to turn any of them down if I could have, if I could have, all of them at home.

[00:34:54] Bronwyn: What do you find most rewarding about working with horses?

[00:34:59] Danielle: I think that often it can be That you're out in nature a lot of the time because to be with the horses you're out in nature and that can be really therapeutically beneficial for yourself and for your clients.

[00:35:10] But working with the horses too is that you never know what you're necessarily going to get with each individual client. Because it's about stepping into relationship with the horse a lot of the time. And so it can help bring up attachment, um, communication styles. A lot of different things can come into that space when you bring a horse into that dynamic. And most importantly, it can actually really just help build rapport with a client much quicker as well, because they feel like they've got the support and the lend of another nervous system, uh, in that space. And it can just be really, really safe and calming for clients.

[00:35:46] Bronwyn: Yeah. You, you look like you love it. It looks like a, yeah, it just looks like a fantastic area for you. Um, so who benefits from equine psychotherapy? Like who's a typical client that that might come to you looking for equine psychotherapy?

[00:36:03] Danielle: So look, I think it can benefit anybody, but typically what I've seen in terms of practice is that neurodivergent children, it can be really wonderful for them. And then a lot of adults with trauma is what I've worked with in the past as well.

[00:36:17] So, um, I think, you know, it initially started in the States and working with war veterans and things like that, it's really starting to gain a bit more traction in Australia at the moment, whereas it did start with trauma and adults and males specifically because it got them out of the therapy space, out in nature, it's experiential and so the learning can be really, really quite profound.

[00:36:39] Bronwyn: So it sounds like nature plus animal who can regulate their nervous system. Seems like a winning combo. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:48] Danielle: Isn't that the goal, right? Yeah.

[00:36:50] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah. And can you tell us a bit, like, it sounds like nature is quite important. Um, like, can you just tell us a bit about what you find rewarding about working in nature?

[00:37:02] Danielle: I think that it just lends a lot more resources. To yourself and to the client in that therapeutic relationship, because you've got, you naturally got trees and oxygen surrounding you as well as an animal and a nervous system that's able to regulate themselves. And so I think that it can take you out of that really clinical space where it's just a back and forth kind of conversation. And there's so much more experiential work going on for the client, and it can just be really beneficial for the long term.

[00:37:31] Bronwyn: I often think that because I do therapy mostly one to one, mostly in, well, actually all the time in a room. And I'm just thinking like, let's say I wanted to take the client through a mindfulness activity. It's like more often than not, it's like, what can you hear? It's the cars on the road. Um, I just feel like it would be so much more rewarding to be like, I can hear the rustling of the leaves.

[00:37:52] Danielle: That, that's exactly right. So the presence and the mindfulness in that moment with animals can be a little bit deeper than, yeah, if you're just in a room and you've got kind of limited things to be noticing around you, right?

[00:38:04] Bronwyn: absolutely. Yeah. It's, it's, it's often like cars on the road, aircon. And then when we run out of things, it's like me talking, breath and I'm like, Oh, it'd be so nice to have that variety of nature.

[00:38:16] Danielle: course. And look, I've got my room based sessions where that happens too. And they're saying, Oh, I'm, you know, cluing into your voice right now. And I'm thinking, okay, what else can you hear?

[00:38:24] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah, totally. I just think it's really beautiful. And what benefits like, have you observed from using like equine psychotherapy? Like what do you think that people tend to get out of it?

[00:38:36] Danielle: I think, because horses are... so in terms of the psychoeducation around horses and equine therapy, first of all, they're play animals, so they love to be curious and they love to, yeah, so that they love to be curious and they love, they're quite inquisitive and when they feel safe, they are curious creatures.

[00:38:56] And so first of all, they're play animals, they're herd animals. And so they want to be with their connected peers. They want to be around family. And I think that teaches us a lot about connection and safety in relationships. And I think that that can be a really important teacher for a lot of clients, but typically, you know, the benefits that a lot of clients get out of it is finding that safe relationship. Specifically with trauma if they've never had that and it's complex trauma from childhood, it's they're able to enter into a safe relationship with a really majestic creature and it's supported by a practitioner where they can kind of do some reframing around how to safely enter relationships and set boundaries and it can just be really helpful.

[00:39:41] Bronwyn: So I'm going to ask an ignorant question because my interaction with horses is very limited. But do you, okay, I'll give you the long story. My mum claims that I used to do horse lessons every week when I was like four or five. I cannot remember a single one. And so for me, that's like an absent memory. And then every time I bring it up, my mom's like, Bronwyn, but you did horse lessons like once a week, like when you were four or five. And I'm like, mom, I do not remember this in my life. Like, are you sure? Like, were you taking another child for horse lessons every week?

[00:40:12] So according to me, my interactions with horses are very limited. So as an adult, I would be like, I think my first like fear would be like, is the horse going to kick me?

[00:40:23] Danielle: Yes, yeah, and that's often the first, um, look they can, so the third that I forgot is that they play, prey, and um, herd animals, so play, prey, herd. And so as a prey animal, they can step into that fight, flight response very quickly. So, horses aren't naturally aggressive. If they're kicking or if they're running off in a, in a hurry, it's because something in their environment has sent, sent them into a fight, flight response.

[00:40:52] Bronwyn: Oh, okay. Sure.

[00:40:53] Danielle: And so if they're kicking you and you know, you've got a kicky horse, I wouldn't necessarily be bringing clients around to it, right?

[00:41:00] Bronwyn: That makes sense.

[00:41:02] Danielle: Yeah. Cause you've got to manage the safety for the client as well. Um, but that's, that's the first question that a lot of clients ask, will it kick me? And so a lot of it is around educating the clients around how to be with the horses in safe ways, which is teaching again, How they can start to recognize their own bodily, um, sensations and what's happening for them so that they can put themselves in safe situations again in the future. So it's helping reframe that trauma, trauma perspective as well, a lot of the time.

[00:41:33] Bronwyn: Are horses attuned to our emotions? So if I'm really scared, would a horse pick up on that?

[00:41:39] Danielle: Absolutely. Yep. So yeah, absolutely. So they will pick up on the emotions around them. They'll pick up if someone is nervous, they'll pick up if someone is maybe a bit more dominant or aggressive and things like that.

[00:41:53] Sometimes they can mirror it. Uh, it depends on the horse because every horse has their own personality too, right? And so sometimes they could mirror that emotion in, in the client, or sometimes they might challenge it a little bit, um, and maybe push a little bit of a boundary if someone's feeling a little bit more reserved and scared and kind of help a client step into their power and say, well, hold on, this is my boundary. You can't enter my space.

[00:42:18] And so, so it really, it depends on the horse and it depends on the client. And that's part of your job as the practitioner is making sure that you kind of matching up the right horses with the right clients and what the needs are and what the intention is for the session and working with

[00:42:33] Bronwyn: It's really amazing, like when I think of it, I'm just like, it's so experiential. So it's like some of the things that clients may come to therapy for, for example, are like, I don't know how to comfort other people when they're distressed, or I don't know what to do, or I don't know what to do with my own emotions. And I'm just thinking like, horses can help show them all of those things.

[00:42:55] Danielle: That's exactly right. Yeah. And, and it teaches it in a way where. Often it doesn't necessarily need to be spoken. And so it's, it is that experiential process where it just happens. The natural connection happens and the regulation and the attunement of the emotions happens on a different level. And it just deepens it for a lot of people through that experiential process.

[00:43:18] Bronwyn: No, it sounds amazing. And I guess I have a question. Uh, it's a bit left field, but it's, what do most people get wrong about equine therapy?

[00:43:26] Danielle: In a joking way, a lot of people ask me and think, am I going into a field and helping the horse with their emotions?

[00:43:36] Bronwyn: Oh, that's so funny.

[00:43:40] Danielle: So a lot of people honestly think that's what it is. I'm some kind of horse whisperer and I'm dealing with the horse's behavioral issues.

[00:43:46] Bronwyn: Oh, I see. Okay. Sure. Okay. No, that's a misconception.

[00:43:50] Danielle: Absolutely. Yeah. But honestly.

[00:43:54] Bronwyn: Do you feel like you're a horse whisperer?

[00:43:56] Danielle: Definitely not, they still teach me so much on the daily about areas where I need to improve or things that maybe are unprocessed for myself. And so that's why I do the individual work so that doesn't come into the client session just as we all do, whether or not that's in room or with horses, it's all the same process.

[00:44:16] Bronwyn: Totally. Is there anything else that you wanted to say about equine psychotherapy before we move on?

[00:44:22] Danielle: Oh, just that everybody should do it. Absolutely.

[00:44:28] Bronwyn: I, really want to try it out. Like, could I go to a, like, could I find an equine psychotherapist and be like, Hey, can I pay to like attend a session or something?

[00:44:37] Danielle: And I'm pretty sure there's a fair few over in WA as well. And so I, I definitely, you can go and do your own sessions. And if it's another psychologist as well, uh, then you can, it's just the same as going and seeing your own psychologist and you can work on your own things, you can work on your own processes. And, and see what it's about.

[00:44:56] And I think that that, again, it's bringing in the experiential of knowing for yourself, experiencing it for yourself so that if you're wanting to refer clients for that and see what types of clients that would benefit from that, you've got that firsthand experience to say, yeah.

[00:45:11] Bronwyn: Um, I do like knowing what it's like to be in the hot seat. Like I do like, like I don't share with clients like, oh, when I did EMDR therapy or whatever, this is what it was like for me kind of thing. But I do just like knowing what common fears like clients might have or questions. So yeah, I reckon it could be helpful to experience it for yourself.

[00:45:29] Danielle: Absolutely. Because then you can speak to some of those fears coming up around, yeah, they're going to kick me.

[00:45:35] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:45:35] Danielle: Or, or is it really safe? You know, you'll be able to speak to that for the client.

[00:45:41] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, so they're very experienced. They know how to keep you safe. Safe is like their number one priority and they're going to work with you well.

[00:45:48] Danielle: That's exactly right. And, and we'd always do the safety guidelines in the first session, the fir and at the beginning of every session, before we enter the paddock with the horses, it's a reminder of those things. 'cause the safety is the number one thing.

[00:46:01] Bronwyn: Beautiful. I'm so glad that you're in this area, this wonderful area, which a lot of people sounds like they could benefit from.

[00:46:07] Danielle: Oh, absolutely. I just think it's amazing. And yeah, I just love animals. So it's really fun for me too.

[00:46:13] Bronwyn: Yeah, me too. Maybe, I want to be an equine psychotherapist. We'll see.

Solo private practice

[00:46:18] Bronwyn: Anyway, um, I just want to move on to this other aspect that we wanted to talk about with your story, which was that you are now in your own solo private practice. Is that right?

[00:46:29] Danielle: I am. Yeah. So I'm, I'm working, I started my own private practice, but I'm still engaged with a lot of the other practices that I was working from during my four plus two as well. Um, because I still really want to be connected with team and with other practitioners, I think that that's just so important as an early career psych.

[00:46:47] Bronwyn: Yeah. So moving into private practice can be a really significant step. Um, what did you consider when making this transition? Because it's a business step. It's a personal step. Like how did you decide to do this?

[00:47:01] Danielle: Well, I probably had to consider, do I want to be my own boss? Or am I happy to just kind of work within the team environment and let someone else make the decisions? And I think it was very easy for me to recognize, no, I really like and value a lot of autonomy over my schedule, over the types Of clients I see and things like that as well. And so that was a huge factor.

[00:47:22] Um, but I think that, that my approach to it has really been just go slow. I'm not necessarily looking to fill up my own private practice. I'm working with a lot of, uh, long-term clients that I've already been seeing for a few years. And so I'm just taking it really slow in that process, uh, which I think is the most ethical approach to, to take anyway. Yeah.

[00:47:42] Bronwyn: And how do you make sure that your practice is safe? It's ethical that, you're setting it up in a way that's abiding by all our ethical guidelines.

[00:47:53] Danielle: Well, I think that's just it. It's around knowing how you need to be compliant. It's around recognising what your ethics, ethics are, what your responsibilities are and doing that research. And if you're not sure, just asking, right? It's sometimes you are kind of learning a little bit on the fly, but then other times you need to put the research in beforehand so that you feel prepared to take on clients.

[00:48:16] And so it's just a matter of being prepared. Yeah, making sure that you're really compliant with all of those types of processes and that's why I've taken that slower approach so that I'm not stepping in too much. I'm not getting too overwhelmed. I'm just taking it one step at a time.

[00:48:31] Bronwyn: Perfect. And what advice would you give to other early career psychs who are maybe looking to do the same?

[00:48:38] Danielle: Go for it. You know, if you're feeling like it's the right time, go for it. I think. I think we all have that inner sense of knowing if it's the right step for us or not. So if you're feeling like it is, then go for it. If you're not necessarily and you feel like you need more support, then, you know, remain where you are if you're happy.

[00:48:54] I think that that's an individual kind of choice, uh, and which that's the, that's the reason why I've taken the pathway I have in that regard is I've remained within the private practices, uh, that I was already working at and even in my own private practice, I'm still engaged in, uh, I'm still engaged in places where other colleagues have been, and I'm working out of their private practices too, so that I'm still connected with so many peers and that you've got that support.

[00:49:23] Bronwyn: And where do you see yourself headed in your career in the next few years? Like will you continue with the private practice? Will you maybe like solely work in that? Yeah, what's what's for you in the future?

[00:49:35] Danielle: Yeah, look, I think, I think I really, it's the two, it's the both and, right? I really value The Autonomy and having my own private practice, but I also really value teams and working within teams and other practitioners. So I think for me, the goal is to have a bit of both, the balance of both, but I don't have my own herd of horses at the moment. So I'm working with a lot of horses that I know, and I'm working out of other people's homes and things like that and their properties. But the goal for me is definitely having my own kind of homestead living, A huge herd of horses and animals all around if you possibly can. And that's, that's definitely the end goal and the dream.

[00:50:15] Bronwyn: Oh, that sounds like a nice, a nice picture. Will you have ducks?

[00:50:19] Danielle: I I would welcome the ducks. I don't necessarily know I'd go and seek them out, but I maybe a pond that they want to frequent to come? Yeah.

[00:50:27] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah. Sounds good.

Wrapping up

[00:50:29] Bronwyn: Danielle, what do you hope that listeners will take away from hearing your story today?

[00:50:35] Danielle: I hope that they take away that they're not alone. That perhaps the complaint process is inevitable. It's not that it's unavoidable and that you can get through it and that you can still remain a good practitioner while you go through that process, if it ever happens to you. And probably also that just equine therapy is really beneficial and you should try it for themselves.

[00:51:00] Bronwyn: Yeah. With the equine therapy, is there a favorite resource that you would recommend to listeners? Like, is there a book or a podcast or I don't know, somebody who's like website is really good?

[00:51:11] Danielle: So the Equine Psychotherapy Institute is where I did my training through and they're one of the main training organizations in Australia at the moment. And so I would reckon that I would recommend their website, but there's also, I'm even looking at my bookshelf and there's a book called Think Like a Horse as well. I can't remember the title of the author, but Think Like a Horse is also a really good one.

[00:51:36] Bronwyn: I'll see if I can find it and I'll try and pop it in the show notes. Thank you. And Danielle, if listeners want to learn more about you or get in touch, where can they find you?

[00:51:45] Danielle: So they can find me at libertywellnessaus.com.au and just have a chat. I'm also on social media and everything as well. So if they, they've got any questions or if they want to reach out for whatever reason, I'm always happy for a chat.

[00:51:58] Bronwyn: Wonderful. Danielle, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's been such a pleasure to have you on, and thank you for sharing your story with us.

[00:52:05] Danielle: No, thank you for having me. It's been really lovely. I really value that time with you.

[00:52:10] Bronwyn: No worries. And listeners, thank you so much for listening. If you're loving the show and don't want to miss an episode, do press follow on your podcast listening app so that you can get episodes when they are released. And if you are enjoying this episode or any of our previous ones, do leave us a five star rating and review on your podcast app or iTunes or Spotify. It really does help get the podcast into more people's ears.

[00:52:33] That's a wrap. Thanks so much for listening to Mental Work. Have a good one and catch you next time. Bye.