How to REALLY process what clients share with us (with Matthew Jackson)

[00:00:00] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers. You're listening to the Mentor Work Podcast, your companion to early career psychology. I'm your host, Dr Bronwyn Milkins, and today we are joined by special guest, Matthew Jackson. Hi, Matthew.

[00:00:18] Matthew: Hi.

[00:00:19] Bronwyn: It's so lovely to have you back. Listeners, Matthew's been on a few episodes now and he has just been fantastic. Matthew, could you just please remind our listeners who you are, and what your non psychology passion is.

[00:00:32] Matthew: So my name is Matthew. I am a registered general psychologist, and my non psychology passion is plants as well as horror films. I love anything nitty gritty Scary.

[00:00:46] Bronwyn: What's your favorite plant?

[00:00:48] Matthew: It is any type of Hoya. Um, if anybody knows what Hoya's look like, Specifically, also yeah. I would say this. The Crimson Queen. Um I'm sure I can get 1 off my my shelf later. Take a photo. We can we can put it online or something.

[00:01:06] Bronwyn: I'll put it on the socials. I love the name Crimson Queen. Like, even the name would make me Be like you're my favorite plant.

[00:01:14] Matthew: Right. And there's also a crimson princess, and the way to tell them differently is that The Queen has this white kind of veil on the outside like a crown and the princess has this white stripped down the middle, kind of like a gown, like a princess would wear. It's really interesting.

[00:01:32] Bronwyn: That is a dope plant. That sounds amazing.

[00:01:36] Well, you so much, Matthew, for coming back on the podcast. It's a delight to have you on. And today, I'm especially excited. I know I say it every episode, but but I think I'm just always excited for every episode. But today, I wanted to talk with listeners about how to process sessions, the reason why I wanted to was because I hear people or just on socials, they're like, look, you really need to process sessions. And I think I automatically feel annoyed because I'm like, well, how? How do I process? How do I really process sessions if it's really heavy stuff, and how do I feel okay with that? and so I wanted to unpack that a bit today, and and I think we're gonna go through why it's important to process sessions, a few strategies that you can use to process sessions, our experiences, and how we've processed sessions.

[00:02:23] So let's start off by talking about Why it's important to process what we hear from clients? What do you think?

[00:02:32] Matthew: I think it's important to process what we hear from clients and also what we see as as well within sessions. Because if we don't, we might hold on to it. And in holding on to it, that that impacts us, could even impact the way that we are in that session or the next session with the client, And I think overall leads to burnout.

[00:02:58] Bronwyn: Yeah. I agree. Like, I I was reading a statistic the other day that within the first 5 years of being a therapist or psychologist, like, 60 percent of therapists will say that they're burnt out, which I think is an underestimate.

[00:03:12] But but there's a lot of therapists who leave the profession in the first 5 years because they're burnt out or they get compassion fatigue. It's just too much or they get vicarious trauma. So it's they themselves from hearing trauma then start to have symptoms of post traumatic stress disorder, which is Nuts.

[00:03:28] Matthew: it really is. And if you think about it, it's kind of like an everyday thing That we just experienced as psychologists. We sit down in a session with somebody, and they disclose something that's occurred to them recently or in the past. And it's I don't know what it's like for you, but for me, it's like, oh, okay. We're gonna go there. Okay.

[00:03:51] Bronwyn: Yeah. No. It's it's like that now. When I first started, I literally remember the first ever session I did with a client and they shared something, like, I can't remember exactly what it was, but I felt myself tear up. And I remember By the standards now, I would be like, no, I wouldn't tear up over that. But for me, initially starting out, everything was overwhelming to hear. I was like, Oh, that's so sad. Oh, that's so terrible. So tragic. And I would feel myself wanting to cry, like, all the time.

[00:04:21] Matthew: Oh, same. I think last year I probably did cry once or twice because of Disclosure of traumas or really horrible experiences in session. Even, as I said earlier, things that I've seen, I think Back to a session in the past where somebody had written something really unfortunate, uh, and kind of etched it into their skin. And I remember thinking, I I'm actually not okay. I don't I I don't wanna see that, and I'm not okay, and I'm gonna hold on to that for probably a long time. So that vicarious trauma is so real for us as psychologists.

[00:04:56] Bronwyn: It is really weird. Like, when I think of that and I hear that, I'm like, wow, that's big. You know, that's massive. Like, seeing somebody hurt themselves and then that having quite a huge effect on you, like, understandably so.

[00:05:10] Matthew: Completely, and I think even though I was exploring my responses to that In 'supervision', it definitely changed the way that I responded to risk or trauma Probably a good year or 2 straight.

[00:05:27] Bronwyn: So I guess, like, you know, when we think of the experiences that we hear in therapy, We're talking about the whole range of human experience. Like, before I became a psychologist, I was I was aware that people experience hardship, but wonder if this has happened for you. Like, Are there things that your clients experience and you're like, wow.

[00:05:47] Like, I had never thought that that would be a thing that someone would experience? And you're like, oh, I've Unlocked new new ways to feel bad, like, in oneself.

[00:05:58] Matthew: Yes. I think back specifically to a session last year where, a client disclosed something to me and my first thought was this is a horror film.

[00:06:08] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:06:10] Matthew: There's there's no way that this can be real. And that response is not Questioning them. It's questioning how could somebody do that? You know? And that real life, uh, sort of response of, Wait. Hang on a sec. I don't know how you're coping with this because it's been 5 seconds since you've told me and I'm not coping... What did you just say? What happened?

[00:06:36] Bronwyn: Yeah. So the stuff that we hear, we can hold on to it as well. And I think, you know, from my trauma training, one of the things that I know about trauma is that Sometimes things become traumatic because they violate our expectations of how the world is supposed to be and how other people are supposed to be. So if you perceive the world as safe and then and that somebody will protect you and then an incident happens where that doesn't happen, it can be like, well, how am I supposed to integrate this new parent understanding of the world where it's unsafe and people won't help me... and I feel like when we hear stuff from clients, We can also come into that space, and we can be like, wow. That really violates how I expect the world to be.

[00:07:16] Matthew: Completely. And I think going off of what you've just said Probably contributes to why sometimes I myself speaking from my own responses feel somewhat lost somebody does disclose something that is quite traumatic or just very difficult to hear, sometimes I think, oh, um, that wasn't in a textbook. How am I meant to respond to that? Because I don't even know how I feel right now.

[00:07:44] Bronwyn: And so I I'm guess I'm wondering, like, have there been things that you've heard from clients, where you've noticed changes in yourself. Like, I'm thinking for me, there may have been things that I've heard from clients, and then one of the things I've noticed in myself is that I might think about a lot outside of sessions, and I know I'm holding on to it. Have you experienced similar or different?

[00:08:05] Matthew: All the time.

[00:08:06] Bronwyn: Okay.

[00:08:09] You're like, right now. Yeah.

[00:08:12] Matthew: I I laugh because it's my normal,

[00:08:14] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:08:15] Matthew: um, maybe that's slightly awkward and uncomfortable. I noticed I'm I'm trying to not look at you right now, so gonna say yes. That must be for me. Um, let's explore that.

[00:08:24] So I would say yes. It is A common occurrence for me in sessions to experience something that has taken my breath away or was really difficult, was traumatizing, was maybe even distressing to hear or see. And I don't know how as psychologists, we do this Without ways of coping, of course. don't know how else we're able to kind of sit in that moment with that person, And what they're experiencing, but also our own our own emotions, our own thoughts, our own responses, um, our own, I've forgotten the word, but wanting to kind of leap in there and go, can I hug you?

[00:09:14] Bronwyn: Oh, yes. The urges. Yeah. Like, I've... I've experienced that urge many a time where I've been, like, gosh. I wish I could Just hug this person and take their pain away and just give them some comfort.

[00:09:24] Matthew: Yes, like, I don't want to be the savior but I kind of want to save you.

[00:09:28] Bronwyn: Kinda do. Yeah. Absolutely. So there's there's a lot of, like, human urges that come into our interactions with clients when we sit with a vulnerable space, and we hear their pain. And it might even be reminding us of some of our own pain.

[00:09:43] So I guess, like, no human is free from pain or painful experiences. So, like, something that our clients may have experienced may activate something in us and it's like, oh, crap. That's really, like, touching home for me.

[00:09:53] Matthew: Completely. I have that quite often when I may work with clients who, uh, are queer or queer space, and maybe disclose bullying or how their Families respond to them. And I noticed typically my first thought is, oh, yep. Been there.

[00:10:13] And There is that sense of I connect with you on this, I really empathise with you, and at the same time, Now how do I hold this space for you and also hold that space for little Matt who's, you know, kinda barking at the door now saying, that also happened to us, And have we really processed that?

[00:10:35] Bronwyn: Yeah. 100 percent. And and that's why this episode is so important as well because we need to take care of little Matt. Because if we don't take care of little Matt, little Matt will be knocking at the door being like, hey. I'm over here. Like, don't forget me. Like, waving his arms around.

[00:10:51] Um, and you'll be like, no, I'll just shove you aside, but we need to actually take care of our little selves and be like, You know, we need to do that to take take care. Otherwise, we can have these symptoms of vicarious trauma which might be repetitively thinking about what the client has said. Nightmares, you might notice yourself become more irritable, you might be more anxious, like, for or during or after you see the client. You could have sleep difficulties and so on and so on.

[00:11:16] So think we're both on the same page that, like, we hear a lot of heavy stuff and it's important to make sure that we we sort out that stuff so we can take care of ourselves.

[00:11:25] Matthew: Yes. The the onus is on us to process what we hear and also to protect ourselves at the same time.

[00:11:33] Bronwyn: 100 percent. So let's get a a quickie definition of processed, and I've taken this directly from my EMDR training. It's because when I was doing my trauma training, I kept on being like like, okay. We're processing. We're processing. We're processing. And I was like, what does process mean? So I had like, really sort it out in my own mind, so here it is.

[00:11:53] Something is processed when you can recall it and it feels like something in the past. So it doesn't feel like it's happening right now. You can be like, this is happening now, that happened then. So it can feel like it's in the past. Okay.

[00:12:06] Second thing, when you recall the event or you're reminded of it, you no longer experience Significant Emotional Distress. So it may be, like, a 10 out of 10 when you first thought about what the client had shared with you, but now when you think back on it, it's like at 1 out of 10. It's like, okay. That happened. It's there.

[00:12:24] We're not trying to erase that it happened, but you feel less distress. And then the third thing is that When you recall what your client has told you, you can hold what's called an adaptive perspective. So you can integrate that with your current knowledge about the world. So it might be like, that happened to that client. It challenges me because I thought the world was a safe place where good things happen to good things, and I don't like that bad things happen to good people.

[00:12:52] The adaptive perspective may be like, but sometimes the world doesn't work out well for good people. But I know that I can be kind to this person in front of me, and I know that there are lots of people in the world who are kind. Yes. I think all 3 of those parts are completely relevant, Especially being able to think about a previous session or a previous client Who has brought up something that's quite traumatic or distressing. And when you think of it again, there is that 1 or 2 out of 10 on your own sort of suds or distress level.

[00:13:27] Yeah, totally.

[00:13:28] Matthew: it yeah. It doesn't bring back, yep, nightmares or want to shake or or even wanting to call them and be like, hey. Are you okay right now?

[00:13:38] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah. And I I can give listeners a real example as well. So, like, I'm and I mean yeah.

[00:13:44] I have processed this. So it's like a few years ago, um, when I was working at a private hospital, one of our patients suicided, and at the time, absolutely devastating. For months after, still devastating. Completely beating myself up. But now when I look at it, I know that okay.

[00:14:02] I now know better the signs that someone is contemplating suicide, but I know that I can check-in on them, but but it's very hard to prevent that suicide. Um, I could have done everything I could in that circumstance, and they still would have suicided. And that's a tragedy. We should do better, um, but that is not something that I'm holding on me going forward. And so when I think about it, I'm probably like 0 to 1, like Suds right now, and I can hold that adaptive perspective, and I know that it's in the past.

[00:14:35] Matthew: I really appreciate you sharing that. Really Communicating there, that ability to let go. Being able to This is something that's happened. I've I've learned these things from it, and it really, really impacted me and and colleagues for months, I needed to learn to let it go, that it it's not my thing to take on. That was theirs. I have to let that go.

[00:14:59] Bronwyn: Absolutely. Yep. So it's, like, better equipped now to work with suicide, but now know that suicide, Sometimes, like, no matter what I did professionally, that was it was not going to prevent that suicide, unfortunately, in that specific instance. It doesn't mean that all suicides are not preventable, but in that specific instance, it was very hard.

[00:15:20] Matthew: Completely. And I I too have been in your position. I have unfortunately lost a client, And it was something early on in my career, probably first 4 to 6 months, where I had to really sit down with myself and say, this is probably gonna happen. Like, more than likely, I will lose a client in my career.

[00:15:42] So how do I wanna feel about myself? How am I cope? How do I wanna feel about the profession when this occurs? What is my, you know, safety net? What what am I falling back on here?

[00:15:53] So I really appreciate you opening up that conversation there in regards to losing somebody who we work with. I I feel like kinda Shy away from that in psychology.

[00:16:03] Bronwyn: Well, I think And and likewise, thank you for sharing because I I did wanna open that up because I think it highlights the the gravity of what we what we can deal with as psychologists. And it's like, Yeah. The the death of someone we work with is massive, and it really highlights that we do often need quite substantial support to process, Um, has happened? And I know that I did. I required a lot of support with processing, um, the loss of that patient.

[00:16:30] Matthew: Trauma.

[00:16:31] Bronwyn: Yep. Trauma.

[00:16:32] Hashtag trauma. Yep.

[00:16:33] Matthew: all trauma.

[00:16:35] Bronwyn: Absolutely. Okay. So Let's turn to how can we process sessions and the things that clients, tell us.

[00:16:45] We've got 1, 2, 3, 4 5 6 7. We've got 7 things and then we might riff off of those. But, look, the first thing that I wanted to talk about was That a lot of us might automatically turn to our partner friends or family or all 3 because we're so used to telling those important people in our lives about everything that we're going through and getting emotional and practical support that way. But in the case of being a therapist, we can't do that because our code of ethics says that we can't share client confidential material. So how do you how do you deal with that?

[00:17:22] Matthew: I've found My own way to still get that need met and continue to be in line with the code of ethics. So what I mean by that is I still do lean on my mum, my partner, my friends for support, even even when it's within the context of a rough day at work. I do, however, and I set this up from, like, week one of my internship all those years ago, um, that I can't tell you anything.

[00:17:55] Bronwyn: Yep. So just straight up directly.

[00:17:58] Matthew: Right? Don't ask me.

[00:18:00] My answer is gonna be, can't talk about it. Straight towards the boundary. I'm cutting you off. Um, but over the years, Is it's quite obvious for people who are personal to us, parents, partners, to see that something's really not okay. And It is hard to not say, oh my gosh, well, you know, Mary said this or Joe Black said this.

[00:18:25] It's really hard not to be able to do that. There are ways that we can. We can say like I had a rough day at work, a A lot of sadness came up. We can talk about our own experiences, and so I find that that's what I do with family, friends, my Uh, no. I talk about my experience to the environment rather than I talk about the environment itself.

[00:18:50] Bronwyn: Perfect. Yes. I was hoping that you would touch on that, so I'm so glad you did as well because I do The same thing. I might say something like, I'm feeling really tired. I had to give a lot of myself today.

[00:19:01] Matthew: Completely. I say I say to my partner all the time, my battery is probably at 2 or 3 out 10. I just need a little bit of me space for today, just a little bit.

[00:19:12] Bronwyn: Yeah. I I do the same thing. I'm like, I just need to scroll on this for 20 minutes. I'll I'll come back to you. So just like, you know, it's kind of like leave a message at the beep um, and Bronwyn is not here right now.

[00:19:22] Matthew: That's kind of brilliant.

[00:19:24] Bronwyn: Yeah. So, Yeah. You can definitely talk about your own emotional experience, and I think it's really important, like, because our partners might be really confused by our behavior and be like, why the hell are they doing that? And and they might not understand the emotional gravity unless they're a therapist themselves of of the work that we do. Um, so I feel like giving them that emotional insight can be really helpful.

[00:19:47] Matthew: Completely. And I guess I like to think of it as well as kind of like a teaching lesson.

[00:19:51] Bronwyn: Yep.

[00:19:52] Matthew: So I pop my psych hat on for a brief moment, and I think of it as like a teaching session that this person gets to understand now that this is the boundary. Right? And that there are implications for me going over that boundary and disclosing information that's not okay for me to to disclose.

[00:20:11] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:20:12] No. Absolutely. And then I wanted to ask this as well, but okay. So I most frequently encounter this with the hairdresser, actually, because the hairdresser will ask me what I do inevitably. And then the most common thing I hear is, like, that must be really hard. Like, how do you cope with that? So they actually ask me. Um, and sometimes they ask me questions about specific patients and staff. But anyway, how do you respond when, uh, partners, friends, family, hairdressers, uh, person on the street asks you about Sessions.

[00:20:42] Matthew: I usually try and generalise it. I'll talk about maybe presentations I see or the Therapy that I that I give, that I do the most. Um, maybe I'll talk about, uh, I I moved into a leadership role. So maybe I'll I'll kind of change the topic a little bit about that a little bit more, um, as a way to kind of shape them out of asking me questions that is very, very specific.

[00:21:13] Bronwyn: Yes. Yes. No. I do the same thing. Like, with the hairdresser, I might say if they ask me about what kinds of clients I see, I'll be like, oh, like, I see people who experience depression, anxiety, Trauma, and so I'll be very general. And they they might say things like, uh, but, you know, clients see you for years? And then I'll give, like, a general answer.

[00:21:34] Sir. Um, then I'll say, like, you know, people come to see me for all sorts of life changes and yeah. I guess I say people rather than, like, Mary came to see me last week for this.

[00:21:43] Matthew: I love it. Mary's seeing both of us.

[00:21:45] Bronwyn: Yeah. I know. Yeah. Dual relationship there. Yeah.

[00:21:49] Matthew: Oh, no. We've encountered an ethical issue.

[00:21:51] Bronwyn: Yeah. But, yeah, I think it does, um, I I noticed myself, like, I used to feel more anxious about this in the past. Yeah. like, now that I've got some stock standard phrases and ways of, like, deflecting and and not going into specific details, I find that most people just ask because they because they don't know about psychology or therapy. So they just they just wanna understand a little bit better. They're not actually interested in Mary. Um, sorry, Mary. Um, but they just wanna know a bit about the the process and, like, what therapy is.

[00:22:23] Matthew: Yes, sorry Mary, but I also agree with you.

[00:22:26] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:22:26] Matthew: I think that I think that that's something that we can connect with our family and friends is we too, before we joined the, you know, the cult of psychology, We too were really kind of interested in, like, so what is psych and how do people work? Of course, People who don't work in this field are also really interested in understanding what is psychology and how people work. And so I I kind of sit with it in my mind of this is normal questioning. They don't understand ethics. They don't have the access to documents that we have access to. So I'm I'm just gonna say this is a teaching moment and be able to kind of redirect that person and make it very general...

[00:23:10] Bronwyn: liked where you were going with it because I was thinking in my mind, like, the people who ask us questions, they're not trying to trip us up and be like, got you. I'm gonna report you, that kinda thing. Um, I think there's only been, like, one instance, like, the past few years where someone has asked me a specific question about a client, and then I've needed to be, like, oh, like, oh, you might not know, but, like, Like, psychologists actually have really strict, like, necessary provisions around what we can share with clients. And they'll be like, oh, like, I didn't know that. And I'd be like, yeah. Like, we can't She shared that information, so it's part of the privacy act and just part of our confidentiality and and ethics, um, protecting health information, and they're like, oh, okay. And it was no biggie.

[00:23:50] Matthew: I love that. I too have had a instance where somebody asked me, um, what's the craziest thing that a client has ever said to you in session.

[00:23:59] Bronwyn: Oh, yeah.

[00:24:00] Matthew: And I was like, oh, That's a problem

[00:24:04] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:24:05] Matthew: and for many, many reasons, MANY reasons that question.

[00:24:11] Um, But relating to this context, I simply just put it as I've said to you in the past I can't say those thing. So instead, I'm gonna move the conversation along. And I I did get the response of, like, I'm not gonna tell anybody. I don't know who you're talking about. Right? And my response to that was, well, imagine if you were my client and then I went around telling people, oh, Joe, blah blah blah, how would you feel

[00:24:42] out that I was talking about

[00:24:43] Bronwyn: Yeah. You wouldn't like that.

[00:24:45] Matthew: Yeah. That I think that person understood from then on. I never got another question.

[00:24:49] Bronwyn: Yeah. Great. Awesome.

[00:24:51] Nice nice handling. Well done. Um, is there anything else you wanted to say on that that, like, interlude of, um, talking to friends and family.

[00:25:00] Matthew: Last thing I would say is that it's okay To put, like, a stop sign in between you and that person and just to orient them to what you were saying earlier to orient them to, hey, there's such thing as the Privacy Act. Hey, I have a really strict set of rules called the code of ethics. It's It's for your protection as well as mine, but mainly for your protection. So here's my stop sign. I would like for you to understand that's my boundary, and next time we're not gonna cross that. I just want people to understand it's okay to put that stop sign boundary there.

[00:25:33] Bronwyn: Thank you. No. I think that's really important because sometimes I think, Uh, we can feel really bad about it, but I really like what you're saying because it's like you don't need to feel bad about it. It's just you just need to tell them directly, how it is, and and it's okay to put in those boundaries.

[00:25:50] Matthew: Completely. Whether that person likes that response or not, It's our job not disclose that information.

[00:25:58] Bronwyn: Yes. And there are Other ways that we can process sessions as well. So we've got we've got a few other ways. So are we ready to go on to these ways?

[00:26:09] Matthew: Okay, I'm really excited, so I'm gonna take a deep breath and contain myself. Please Start us off.

[00:26:14] Bronwyn: I'm gonna 1 out of order because them written down here. I'm gonna pick 1 out of order. How do you feel about that?

[00:26:20] Matthew: I'm so excited. I don't know if you just noticed me, like, shifting around in my chair. I'm like, let's get into this. Come on.

[00:26:26] Bronwyn: Let's do creative outlets for processing sessions. Because I feel like I feel like you'd be good at this.

[00:26:32] Matthew: Oh, my favorite. Don't even get me started.

[00:26:34] Bronwyn: Okay.

[00:26:35] Matthew: get me started.

[00:26:36] Bronwyn: Please get me started.

[00:26:39] Tell us how creative outlets can help you process uh, Sessions.

[00:26:45] Matthew: I have a lot of creative outlets that I use as ways to process sessions Or difficult moments with clients. So, just as an example, something that I do is I write music, and what I'll do is that if it's a really difficult session or a difficult response that I'm having towards a client, I'll actually write a song about them.

[00:27:06] Bronwyn: Wow.

[00:27:07] Matthew: Yeah. I have a confidential it is a password protective file in my phone, and it has Some music in there that I recorded just on my phone there, um, about a perhaps a person or or a session or something that popped up in me from that particular session or client, and I've created a song about it. And in doing so, I get to process that emotion. I get to write it down. And as I sing it or read it back, I I'm kinda reflecting back, well, that's how I feel about them.

[00:27:38] And am I okay with So I do it through song or even I do creative writing. So at the moment, I've got 3 different TV shows and 2 horror films. And I've written, um, clients into it. Obviously, I've changed their name, I've changed every little detail.

[00:27:56] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:27:57] Matthew: Nobody try report me. Um, I've changed every little detail. I've even written Some of perhaps the storylines, take a little flare out of perhaps a session that I was really struggling with and holding on to and I explore that in the writing of that character. And I think to myself, okay, how is this character gonna take the journey. What are they gonna feel about themselves? How are they gonna become the hero now and not the villain?

[00:28:27] Right? And so I'm kind of changing This narrative for the client, but in my head, the client doesn't need to know about it. It's my own processing.

[00:28:36] Bronwyn: Wow.

[00:28:37] Matthew: Otherwise I do like drama therapy. I love it. So, um, I will, doing drag, I have a lot of costumes. So sometimes I'll even act the client out to myself. So I'll put on a costume and I'll kinda become the client and trying to put myself in their shoes, I'm like, Oh, this is how difficult this was. This is what, uh, this might have felt like to disclose this piece of information. How now do I want to sit with this person? If I'm this person, if I'm this character, how do I want to process this now going forward. So that's just three of my creative ways.

[00:29:15] Bronwyn: I think that's amazing. I look forward to your workshop in the future on how to process sessions with using creative outlets, which I will attending and buy all the tickets for so

[00:29:23] Matthew: Deal,

[00:29:24] Bronwyn: 1 on 1 session.

[00:29:25] Matthew: Okay. Good. Because I wasn't planning on giving you mates rates anyway.

[00:29:28] Bronwyn: Yeah. Damn it. Oh, I love that. I think that's amazing. I love I love all of that. I love that you use drama, music, costume. It's it's wonderful. Maybe could you tell us any other ways that you process sessions? Like, we've got okay. So we've got other ones which is supervision, journaling, mindfulness, continuing education, personal therapy. Like, do you do you do any of these ones?

[00:29:55] Matthew: All of them. Every single one.

[00:29:58] Bronwyn: Okay.

[00:30:00] Matthew: So, uh, of course, I think we all know just how important supervision is. And if you haven't found that yet, um, I I hope that you do find that ASAP. Supervision is so important.

[00:30:12] Even just thinking about the idea of having a safe space Where you can come to it and say, just had this session, this client said this. I'm really not okay.

[00:30:25] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:30:26] Matthew: I'm actually I'm not doing well and I don't know what to do now Because I have to see them next week. What do I do? Just having that experience of the safe that safe place being able to be validated. Even even hearing from a supervisor, Yes. I've had those experiences before too. That normalisation process, I find very, very validating for me in building that, like, network, but also in being able to see, like, oh, so this is normal. I'm having a very normal response to what I've just heard, to what I've just experienced.

[00:31:05] Bronwyn: Yep. I I love that. That works really well for me because because the expectations I place on myself, it's usually like I should know this. So when I don't know something thing and I bring it to supervision, and the supervisor is like, no. You you don't have to know that. That was a tricky situation. I'm immediately like, oh, wonderful. Thank you so much. Can I record that? So I can play it back to myself.

[00:31:29] But, yeah, I find that having a supportive supervisor like you is really essential. Some of the early supervisors I had, We just didn't click as well, and it wasn't until I got supervisors who who I instantly clicked with and truly understood that I was like, Uh, this is what supervision is supposed to feel like, this this really validating space where I can be, like, vulnerable and be, like, I don't know this. Can you help me? Um, or can we practice this? Or I feel really shit about this, and having that guidance, support, validation, normalization, It's really good.

[00:32:02] Matthew: A hundred percent. And I really like something you said there. I I actually want to kinda journal on that a little bit. really like what you mentioned there around in a supervision session, kinda recording something actually That was just said and playing it back to yourself, I guess I can't help but think of times when that actually would have been really helpful for me When that perfectionism's popped up and is going, nope, you failed or anything like that, what a great way to kind of Play out that supervision session for yourself. I really like that.

[00:32:35] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.

[00:32:36] I mean, it's work. Um, I do it for clients occasionally as well. I'll record I'll get them to pull up, like, the Apple Notes on their phone or just, like, the audio on Android or whatever, and I'll record something into there, like, the reparenting message. And even just, like, if they never listen to it again outside of session, even just me saying it into the phone in session can be really powerful for them. So, yeah, it's it's good stuff. Would recommend.

[00:32:58] Matthew: I like that. And speaking on that Kind of like building that community, being able build that support network that you're talking about. I really like, like, not even just supervision, but if you're a part of, like, case consultations or like group super... supervisions, being able to have other psychologists around you who, um, you can even just kind of go up to and say, I had a really, like, rough session. Will you come for a walk with me and get a coffee or something? You Just being able to have that support in that sense, even if it's not direct supervision, can be incredibly important. Um, really provides you with that break too.

[00:33:41] Bronwyn: Yeah. Peers are essential. Like, took me a while to find my peers, Um, but now I feel really comfortable. I've got a really good community of neurodivergent clinicians, and I've got a really good community of psychologists who are focused on the sexology space, um, which I really like and so, like, you know, queer and sex, like, affirming, um, which I find that they just share my values in other areas as well, and so it's really safe communities.

[00:34:08] Matthew: I love hearing that.

[00:34:09] Bronwyn: Yeah. What what peers, like, do you have spaces that you found that, like, you're like, no. This is my this is my tribe of, like, peers.

[00:34:16] Matthew: Yes. I think I have two tribes. I have one tribe that is really dedicated to emotional processing and that the immediate message is take a seat and tell me where in the body you're feeling what happened, you know, or what was said. And then I have this other group of peers who are like, let's go for a walk. Let's walk this out. Come on. Let's burn this energy. And I I really appreciate that too.

[00:34:39] Bronwyn: That's awesome. That's fantastic. Yeah. And For any for any listeners who are thinking, like, oh, you know, I'm feeling quite isolated and and I would like to have some peers, don't be afraid to reach out. Like, Facebook groups is a way to do it, your workplace, Um, joining groups that share similar interests, you'll probably find peers who who share similar values and also wanna because remember, all of us need the peer consultation. And so, like, you know, we all need to connect with each other.

[00:35:05] Matthew: Yes.

[00:35:06] Agreed.

[00:35:07] Bronwyn: Yeah. Cool.

[00:35:08] Let's go to continuing education and training, how that helps you process sessions.

[00:35:13] Do you find that it does?

[00:35:14] Matthew: I would say yes in regards to... so I'm thinking for me specifically and I'm thinking in the areas of trauma. Right? So I think if I'm going to, professional development sessions, seminars, etcetera that are trauma related it does help me to I guess kind of take a compassionate trauma focused care lens of like, okay, this person has just said this. I can understand that within the basis of PTSD or I can understand that within the lens of this particular model, and it helps me to kind of externalize it in that sense.

[00:35:55] I think also In building, uh, compassion, especially in perhaps areas where, We don't have that first hand experience, and trying to understand, build that empathy, build that compassion for that client, Being able to engage in continued professional development enables me to understand or have that response, sorry, of, oh, this is what they could be experiencing, No wonder they're having this reaction. Oh my god okay now it makes sense to me. That's what I think. What do you think?

[00:36:29] Bronwyn: Um, that last part, like I feel like that's the most beneficial part of continuing education. So it's not doing, like, specific modalities. It's actually when I do my own personal research. Let's say, a client comes to me and they're from a a culture that is different to my own. I might not be able to understand experience very well or as much as I might like, and so things that they share with me might leave me feeling confused or different sorts of emotions, and I find that through my own investigation of, say, that culture, I can have a greater understanding. So then I can contextualise the information that they give me.

[00:37:06] Of course, I like recognizing they're an individual, um, but I find that that helps me process sessions.

[00:37:12] Matthew: I really like that especially if you think about like core competencies, Right? And, uh, being competent within the area of culture. Being able to understand that, oh, I'm having this And I'm thinking, oh, God. What happened to you was a lot worse than what you're telling me it is. What's that about? Having that cultural competence or that cultural lens really can help us to identify, okay, how do I wanna respond? But also, how do I wanna process this for me because my culture says that was really bad. Even this person's culture is telling me, oh, that's that's actually pretty normal.

[00:37:51] Bronwyn: Yeah. So it comes to that aspect of processing, which is like the assimilation and integration of new information into, like, your existing beliefs. So how can how can I understand this?

[00:38:01] And and that's what I find continuing education really helpful for and sometimes as well, I just wanna speak to this, but sometimes I have I have had clients in the past that have been part of traumatic events that have made the news, either, like, recently or in the past. And, Understanding the event so that then they don't have and processing that in my own time, so then they don't have to give me all the nitty gritty details before they're ready. Um, I find has been quite helpful as well because then I can take it at my pace when I wanna digest that information. Um, and I know therapists might have different perspectives on this, and so they might say, no. You just wanna know about the situation from the client and their perspective.

[00:38:48] And I agree with that. But I think for these these big, like, big t traumas that have been quite media present, I guess just my personal coping has been to find out a little bit more about the event so then I might know what's a no go zone or what's to go and processing my own human reactions to that event as well so I can keep it separate from the client's, um, perspective in a way.

[00:39:14] Matthew: that prompted a thought For me, um, I also use, like, mindfulness, and I guess I'm hearing mindfulness in there as well, being able to identify this is my response, this is my reaction. How can separate that from the clients? How how do I not necessarily bring that into session and go, oh god. What? And, you know, being able to just Be mindful. Stay present to our own experience. I like Yeah. You were really capturing that there.

[00:39:40] Bronwyn: yeah And I'm so glad that you brought that up because that is actually a really key strategy I use to help me process sessions. So something that I often repeat to myself is, like, I've got my stuff, they've got their stuff. My stuff is not their stuff. Then that helps me it's just a shorthand to help me stay a bit separate from my clients, um, because otherwise, if I become enmeshed, then feel like I stopped becoming a helpful as helpful a therapist. and it's it's such a fine line because it's like How we're talking about in a previous episode, like, you need to have that empathy. You need to be able to feel with a client, but I guess it's it's through practice knowing what that line is for yourself.

[00:40:19] Matthew: Completely. Even I'm thinking about for myself, I need something a bit more tangible and physical so I tend to just go, uh, into my office and I shake my entire body,

[00:40:31] Bronwyn: Oh, I love that.

[00:40:32] Matthew: Right. Kind of shake it around like those inflatable people at like car sales.

[00:40:36] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah. Totally.

[00:40:39] Matthew: Kind of do that and say to myself, like, shake it off, this is not for me. It's not my story. Shake it off. Get rid of it. Time to go. In doing so, it allows you to stay present And also I think help manage your emotions for the next session.

[00:40:51] Bronwyn: Totally.

[00:40:53] Matthew: And I tend to think like I don't want to bring what Person 1 has said, 'Interperson 2 session, that's their session. I need to leave that at the door. So time to shake it up. It's time for it to go.

[00:41:07] Bronwyn: Uh, I might I'm gonna steal that. I might copy that because, yeah, I feel like feel like that's something I need to improve upon because it's like, Sometimes I just have a bit of a stretch, but I actually feel like the wacky waving, like, inflatable could be a good motion. listeners, we are both, like, waving our arms at this.

[00:41:25] Matthew: If only they you. We look so funny.

[00:41:31] Bronwyn: it it's really cool, though. I really like it.

[00:41:33] Matthew: Yeah. Right. It's it's just that physical participating form of mindfulness.

[00:41:38] Right? getting the entire body and spirit into it. I feel like Also, in being physical, it it stops me from avoiding.

[00:41:48] Bronwyn: yes

[00:41:49] Matthew: Sometimes, and I don't know if this is like this for you or any of the listeners, sometimes when I'm doing mindfulness or other reflective practice and it's not participation based and it might just be observing thoughts or observing my breath, I I somehow get to a point where I convince myself that it's okay to think about it right here, right now. It might be, if you have the time for that, oh, please do that reflective mindful practice. And if we Have a meeting or another session to go into something, we might have to actually kind of put a pause in it and Say to ourselves, I'll come back to this later, but for right now, I need to shake this off, this has to go. And so doing that physical Component of mindfulness allows me to really shake it off or leave it at the door.

[00:42:42] Bronwyn: I love that. No. That's that amazing. Thank you Matthew. I think from this, I wanted to jump into journaling journaling, if that's okay.

[00:42:51] Matthew: Please.

[00:42:52] Bronwyn: I I've never been good at writing down my thoughts. I think as, like, an ADHDer, I've always needed to Move Plus Think. So I'm either walking and thinking, cycling and thinking, running and thinking. and that's how I process things. When I Used to be part of my very nerdy speech, uh, speech giving club, which was Toastmasters. Oh my but I'm such a nerd, but which weekly for years.

[00:43:18] Um, and to do is write speeches in my head when I'm, like, running, cycling, or walking. And I still actually do that, but not with the intention to give the speech. But I actually find it helpful to write speeches in my head because then I'm externalizing it Rather than going into that negative place of rumination, it's a it's a bit of a strange process, but I found that it it really helps me. So I imagine that I'm talking to someone else about this, but in my own head.

[00:43:44] Matthew: I like that a lot.

[00:43:46] Bronwyn: Yep. like, just I guess I will I wanted to share that just in case anybody thinks that they have to do the writing. I've tried doing writing, and I'm and I'm gonna give it a go again. But me, I've found that thinking in my head in an externalizing way while I'm moving has been most effective for me.

[00:44:04] Matthew: I completely agree with you. Um, when I think of journaling, I too can't write it down. I know I mentioned journaling before, but I too can't write it. I need to process it as I'm walking around the lake. So I get I totally get it, right?

[00:44:19] For me, the journaling and reflective practice is being able to tune into my own triggers. So I tend to think like In, um, you know, trauma work, we're teaching clients to tuning into their own triggers. We can do the same. How do I know that a session has really impacted me if I'm not able to be reflective and think, okay, hang on, where is my heart rate? Or usually I want to avoid, oh, I'm noticing that tendency, okay, that actually okay, I might have had a really rough session today then. So again, that journaling or reflective practice, whether you, um, you write it down or it's something physical, something creative, I find it also enables me to really tune into my responses to session, and that enables me to then be reflective of it.

[00:45:08] Bronwyn: Oh, amazing. I love how you've just integrated everything there. That's wonderful that you can tune into your own body and then you can bring that back to the session, helps you learn more, and it helps you process.

[00:45:17] Amazing. A plus.

[00:45:19] Matthew: Well, I I will say in my own defense or in everybody else's defense or something That that's essentially years of my supervisor saying, you know my practicing mindfulness would be really helpful for you, Matt, plus saying, I actually need to go to therapy.

[00:45:39] That's what that's the combination of.

[00:45:42] Bronwyn: Wonderful. Whatever whatever gets us there. Sometimes, we do need to hear things repeatedly, like psychologists included, before it really hits home.

[00:45:49] so let's move on to that then, the personal therapy. I feel like this is really important. And listeners, we've done an episode all about therapists and therapy, which was an early episode, but I think it's important to talk about it again, about how it can be helpful for us to processing what we do in work. so I wonder, like, Matt, if you feel comfortable, like, is this something that you've done to help you process what's shown up in your work?

[00:46:12] Matthew: I'm completely comfortable because I believe that we need to destigmatize therapy for therapist. So, yes, 100 percent comfortable here. I have, especially within the context of being a queer person and being bullied, really needed to seek therapy for that. I noticed in working with queer people that came up a lot in sessions, and the way that that looked like was being kind of overprotective, right? So there was some counter transference coming through.

[00:46:40] And Could I bring that to supervision? Yes, and yes I did, I still do bring it to supervision. And it is important, and I know any supervisors who are listening will will probably pick up on this. It's definitely important to have, the Separate spaces that supervision isn't therapy. Supervision is that space for us, yes, within the context of clients, Whereas therapy is for you, right? I mean how how scary, right? To have a space for you. But There is a space there for you to be able to say, this session I had brought this up for me, and I'm not feeling good, I'm not feeling safe, um, help me.

[00:47:23] Bronwyn: I'm so glad that you've been able to find a safe space in therapy to unpack those experiences because I very much see supervision as, like, you would recognize that this is where it's coming from, and then therapy would be the place to explore the feelings and how that affects you and what that experience was or experiences were like for you.

[00:47:44] Matthew: Completely. And even just being able to be a bit more honest, like I know within my own individual therapy, I was to be very honest with my individual therapist. And some of those feelings and thoughts, I don't know if I would say them to my supervisor, not because I would be invalidated or anything, but just because that's my feeling, and I don't know. I wanna keep this Professional relationship.

[00:48:09] Bronwyn: I totally feel you, Matthew. Like, I feel like in supervision, I've still got professional me on. Whereas in my own personal therapy, I can be a real brat and, like, I can just I'm just gonna say I can just be a real shithead and, like, I'll say to my therapist, I'm avoiding this. Woo.

[00:48:26] And, like, just let, like, my brat inner child out, and I feel like I can do that in therapy but not definitely not in supervision.

[00:48:32] Matthew: Same. I feel like I kinda go into a space going, so could I please have 10 minutes to just whine and complain? Go.

[00:48:42] Bronwyn: 100 percent. Yep. Yep. I just wanna whine and complain today. Um, how's that go for you? It's my My session okay. Great. We're doing it.

[00:48:52] I also, uh, love therapy for therapists. I agree that we should destigmatize it. it's a it's a great space, nonjudgmental space where we can be held. Um, and I just wanna say as well, like, if you're concerned about your therapist judging you, um, just remember how universal our experiences are. You are not alone in whatever you're experiencing. You would not be the only psychologist who is experiencing what have felt.

[00:49:16] i think that that kinda ties up our discussion on personal therapy for therapists. Are there any other strategies that we haven't talked about that you use to process sessions which you might wanna tell our listeners about.

[00:49:32] Matthew: I will also add in acceptance. So what I mean by that is accepting that difficult sessions or Hearing things, seeing things, having a client disclose a piece of information or experience to you that's really difficult or uncomfortable or is triggering for you. Is a normal part of the process of being a psychologist.

[00:49:58] And so that's what I mean around Acceptance. Accepting that this is a part of therapy. This is a part of my profession. How can I Sit with this? How can I form a relationship with this uncomfortableness, um, around distress and disclosure? Uh, I would Say, also just having a think about how can I practice accepting that this is coming up in session and my responses to that as well?

[00:50:25] Bronwyn: Beautifully said, and I really agree from the perspective of we, as psychologists, we are the ones who we are the tool for the work, essentially. If we are unwell or not processing sessions well, then we might be affecting our ability to deliver Therapy well or or do our jobs in a way that we would hope to be able to do them. And so it's so integral to take care of ourselves and process these sessions. So the acceptance around that as well that we really do need to take care of ourselves is not optional.

[00:51:03] Matthew: No. And even just feeding off of what you're speaking about there that we can provide compassion to clients. And I hope I don't shock anybody when I say this, but we can also provide compassion to ourselves.

[00:51:15] Bronwyn: No.

[00:51:17] Matthew: Sorry, Bron.

[00:51:20] Bronwyn: So I accept and what you are saying to me.

[00:51:23] Matthew: And I appreciate that you're accepting. Thank you. But that we can be compassionate to ourselves. Sometimes, um, I will have a session where it's really rough and I'm taking stuff on, And afterwards, I have to sit down and say, I'm taking stuff on. I don't like that, and It's what my brain and body is doing at this moment. It's okay. Don't push yourself to, like, you know, be that best therapist who lets everything go and nothing affects them. It's okay that it's affecting you. You have ways around this. It's okay. Be compassionate to yourself.

[00:51:57] Bronwyn: And with that, Matthew, is it alright if we wrap up there?

[00:52:01] Matthew: Yes.

[00:52:02] Bronwyn: i thought that was a lovely ending. So, Matthew, if listeners wanna learn more about you or get in touch, where can they find you?

[00:52:10] Matthew: You can find me on Instagram @matildamercuryqueen. Please listen to previous episodes for that to make sense.

[00:52:19] Bronwyn: Yes. Awesome, and I'll pop those links in the show notes.

[00:52:23] And listeners, thank you so much for listening. If you're loving the show and you Don't wanna miss an episode. Press follow on your podcast listening app. And we also have a Patreon, so you can join the Patreon for 2 dollars a month, and it really helps to keep the podcast alive. So podcasting ain't free. Um, it does cost and all funds go back into keeping the podcast Asta Life. So if you wanna join up, it'll be really helpful, and thank you so much to the patrons who are already part of that. I'm really grateful for you.

[00:52:49] And listeners, again, thank you so much for listening. That's a wrap. Have a good one and catch you next time.