The importance of knowing your own stuff as a therapist (with Daniela Ho Tan)

[00:00:00] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers, you're listening to the Mental Work Podcast, your companion to early career psychology. I'm your host, Dr. Bronwyn Milkins, and today we're exploring a topic that's often overlooked, but essential for every therapist journey, and that is doing inner work.

[00:00:20] As therapists, we spend heaps of hours helping other people navigate their inner worlds. But how often do we turn that same lens inward? Today, we're going to be debunking some myths surrounding the idea of therapists engaging in their own inner work, why it's important, and tips for how to do it.

[00:00:38] Here to help us out is our guest, Daniela Ho Tan. Daniela, it's such a pleasure to have you back.

[00:00:45] Daniela: Hi Bron, it's so great to be back. Thanks for having me again.

[00:00:48] Bronwyn: My pleasure. Could you please remind listeners who you are?

[00:00:53] Daniela: Of course. So I'm Daniela, Dani Ho Tan. I'm a Clinical Psychologist, Advanced Schema Therapist and Board Approved Supervisor. And I am so happy to be here to talk about our inner work today.

[00:01:08] Bronwyn: Amazing. And here is your non psychology icebreaker question, which is, is there a book that has really influenced you and changed your life?

[00:01:19] Daniela: Oh, so one of the books that I think as far as I can go back that really stands out to me is actually, um, To Kill a Mockingbird, which I know is such a classic that a lot of people would have really loved, but I think it's so important to me. It was one of the first times I've read a book that actually highlighted the themes of racism, discrimination, but I actually just love, Atticus Finch and how he really portrays this, like, you know, this healthy, strong adult.

[00:01:49] And it just was a book that was so beautifully written. And I thought it was so interesting, even like learning that oh, Harper Lee had to publish. under a pseudonym because of the times. And that, I think it's just so wonderful now to actually have a book like that, that we get to study and learn from. So yeah, that's probably one of my favorite books ever to read.

[00:02:14] Bronwyn: It's such a wonderful book. I agree. It's so beautifully written and Atticus Finch, you know. What a, what a great person and yeah, it's, it was the first time I was exposed to those concepts. And I remember just trying to wrap my , head around it as an 11 year old. And I was like, what is going on here? But it just felt really powerful.

[00:02:30] Daniela: Yeah, definitely. It's such a good book. If someone hasn't read it, I always recommend it.

[00:02:36] Bronwyn: Totally. Absolutely. Would recommend also.

[00:02:39] Okay. Let's go on to the inner world of us. So I would like to start off with why is it important for us to examine our own inner world? So to know our triggers, our strengths, how our personal history has shaped us, our biases. Why do we care?

[00:02:58] Daniela: I think this is so incredibly important because at the end of the day, as much as sometimes, you know, there's the idea of, oh, you go in as a blank slate and, you know, be very neutral. And I agree. Yes, it's important to hold a place of neutrality, but we're also humans who have our own histories, our own stuff, and we can't not be affected by our clients.

[00:03:20] So it's really important. And obviously I tend to think in terms of schemas and modes quite a lot, so I always think, oh, you know, there's the idea of like schema chemistry, for instance, where certain clients schemas may activate and trigger our own. So as an example, I have quite a strong self sacrificing schema, and I find that it does get triggered quite a bit when I work with narcissistic clients or there's a bit of an entitlement schema happening, it brings quite uncomfortable feelings for me that until I started examining it, I just thought, oh, I don't, maybe I don't like this client. Maybe I don't want to work with narcissists.

[00:04:00] But, um, taking it to supervision, understanding it, And working through it actually has helped me grow quite a lot in terms of, uh, personally, but also just professionally with the kind of clients that I can take on. So I really recommend it because it's important to understand how our earlier life experiences, the way we think, um, the way we respond, how it influences the way that we work, and it feeds into our deliberate practice as well. So I think there's so much value in being able to work through our own stuff.

[00:04:34] Bronwyn: I agree. And when you frame it like that, it just makes sense. It's like, we're always telling clients how important it is to know their inner world and how important it is to be aware of how they come to situations and their attitudes and their unconscious beliefs. And we're human too so it's going to affect us as well, particularly when we come to our work with clients.

[00:04:55] Daniela: Absolutely. And, you know, for instance, if you have children of your own, you might find it really hard sometimes and you get, might get triggered or activated when you're working with someone who, let's say, is talking about their own experiences as a child of being abused and, you know, especially if, um, they're describing a situation when they were the same age as your own child, like there's just so much that can get, that can get triggered and activated and therapy session. And whilst we, because we focus so much on our clients, we're always thinking, okay, how do we support them? What is the helpful strategies? What's their formulation? It's actually also important to have a look at, well, what about our stuff? Because we are, like I said, you know, we're human. We're going to have feelings about, and thoughts about things and Because many of us, especially in private practice, see client after client after client. How much time do we actually have to spend between clients, or at the end of the day, to kind of self reflect and go, Wow, that was really tough. Because if you think about it, let's say if you see five or six clients a day, you might see an eating disorder client, and then go straight into a trauma client, and then into, say, an OCD, or like, you're just going from client to client, giving so much to support them. Um, It's, it's going to take somewhat of a toll on you. And I think also, um, and I think this might've been mentioned already in some of your podcast episodes, but therapist burnout, and it's so important to look after ourselves, this fits right into that. I think.

[00:06:22] Bronwyn: No, I agree. It's like we can be so activated and not even realize it because we're just going client to client. And I wanted to circle back to how you were mentioning parenting, because I've always thought about that with parents that... I, I'm thinking I'm not a parent, but I'm thinking it must be so hard when say you're hearing a client who is a parent talk about their child, and then maybe you as a parent might be thinking, ah, my child has encountered this exact situation. Here's what I did. And if you're not aware of your own stuff, you might give or guide the client unconsciously even towards that solution that has worked for your child, but you might not take into account their specific situation, their preferences, and what they've already tried and what their strengths are. Like, do you find that difficult as a parent?

[00:07:07] Daniela: Yeah, I think especially because I've got my eldest, he started kindergarten last year and he's a Year 1 now, and I think we've a lot of clients who have some anxieties about their children starting school and all that. I can empathize so much, but I do have to often be mindful of, okay, like, you know, I don't know what to do. The school, their school is like, I don't know what supports are in place. Um, and I want to be mindful and respectful of that. And that child psychology is not my jam either. And that there are actually some beautiful, wonderful, um, supports out there to help clients.

[00:07:42] So I do have to sometimes be aware of that so that I might... to a degree, share a little bit in terms of, I can empathize as someone who has had a child go through the school system that it's quite normal to bring up some anxiety... okay, redirect that to how can I support you in dealing with the anxieties? And here are a list of the resources and websites that are evidence based or that, uh, you know, where you can access more supports to redirect them to get the right care for their child if they need it.

[00:08:12] But again, it's something that you have to be so conscious and reflective of because in the act of wanting to help so much, it can be easy to kind of blur that boundary and go into more anecdotal experience, which could still be helpful, but you just want to be mindful of that. Like you said, we don't know what the situation could be for their child because the child is not our client.

[00:08:34] Bronwyn: Yeah. No, exactly. And coming back to self care as well, like motherhood often brings about huge change in a person's life and lots of things to adjust to. And I'm just wondering, like, would you be comfortable sharing about how that might have interacted with your schemas?

[00:08:49] Daniela: Oh my goodness, absolutely. I think it's such a roller coaster and it's something that I now sometimes flag with my schema therapy clients, but there's nothing quite like having your own child to reactivate any attachment wounds or just attachment stuff from your childhood that you might've maybe squashed or like thought was processed and resolved. And if you think about it, that those first 12 months, where you're adjusting to having, you know, being in a new role as a mom, having a newborn, being so sleep deprived. Your body has, you know, spent nine months preparing for this, and then it's kind of like, all right, well, now you've got your child, but you have to manage, you know, feeding them, keeping them alive and your body still healing because it doesn't just recover. Like if it takes nine months to build up to that point, it's not going to happen overnight that you just bounce back. So, and there's hormone surging everywhere. So we're all a hot mess and...

[00:09:46] Bronwyn: So it's like recover and keep this thing alive that's fully dependent.

[00:09:49] Daniela: Absolutely. And so I think it causes a lot of people, like, it definitely caused me to think about my earlier life experiences and thinking about, um, well, I think parental or mum guilt is something that comes up really strongly. Like for instance, my own mum, I think on the day she was meant to go back to work, she just couldn't do it. And she just quit and became a stay at home mom, which, you know, I really appreciated.

[00:10:15] Um, but for me, I always, I love work and being a psychologist is something that, as you know, it takes forever to train to be, to get into where we're at. And I didn't want to forgo that part of me, but I felt a lot of guilt and confusion around, well, I actually do want to go back to work, but it doesn't mean I love, my child any less.

[00:10:37] Um, even just with a lot of the unsolicited advice that we would get from families, particularly with, you know, my own parents or, you know, my in laws. Um, it's hard because you're trying to be mindful that you want to take their, some of their feedback and help on board, but you want to also forge your own path with your own child and trust that you know your child better than anyone.

[00:11:05] So it can create a bit of friction and just, yeah, a lot of wounds from the past can be opened up when you examine your own experiences compared to the experiences of your child. And, yeah, It can lead to some pretty uncomfortable conversations, especially if your own parents have their own schemas, which, you know, is very likely.

[00:11:26] Bronwyn: So with that, like that period, did you go through self reflection or did you go to therapy or was there something else that really helped you better understand what was happening for you?

[00:11:37] Daniela: So, I actually, in the moment, I wasn't aware, and it wasn't until a bit later on, but I actually had postnatal depression. And, I think it came as a shock, because, again, as a clinical psychologist, you think, Oh, well, I have some tools and strategies, I should know the warning signs, but when you're in the midst of it, it can happen with, I guess, I didn't realize in that moment.

[00:12:02] And there were a lot of difficulties, like health difficulties in those early days. And it was such a struggle. So I actually, um, had a really great GP who did a referral for me to see someone from the Gidget Foundation, which is a great organization providing lots of support, to new parents. And I did do a number of sessions to help me just clarify and resolve my own. And be introduced to the ideas behind like Circle of Security, and just trust that I knew what was best for my child and to feel confident in that and to be just really firm with that. And that really helped me.

[00:12:41] Bronwyn: Fantastic. And so were you able to come out of that period of postnatal depression, uh, eventually.

[00:12:48] Daniela: It went on for about 18 months before I...

[00:12:51] Bronwyn: Oh, you poor thing.

[00:12:52] Daniela: ...truly felt like myself. Like, it wasn't terrible all through it, but there were so many challenges. I had a lot of issues with breastfeeding, um, just with, well, sleep deprivation is, you know, I can understand why it's a form of torture.

[00:13:05] Bronwyn: Oh, absolutely. 100%.

[00:13:08] Daniela: And just, yeah, like working through my own attachment stuff. So, it was probably, I, I can understand. I think, reflect on it and think, okay, when my son was 18 months was when I started to really feel like, okay, yep, this is, I'm no longer feeling the signs of postnatal depression, like gradually I was getting better and better, but you could just feel it kind of beneath the surface.

[00:13:30] And I think for a lot of people who've had their own experiences of depression, they can start to feel better, but still feel like it's not enough. In the back of their bellies or wherever that there's still something that's, you know, they're not a hundred percent, but they're getting there.

[00:13:45] Bronwyn: Yeah. No, absolutely. I'm so glad that, yeah, it after 18 months though, that you were able to come out of that. And I'm wondering, like, I wonder how your self care goes now with your work, like, do you feel like, uh, ongoing reflection is really important for maintaining your self care and preventing burnout?

[00:14:04] Daniela: Absolutely. So I think for myself, because I am someone who loves to say yes to everything and I just, love being busy, I've had to learn to really slow down. I've had a bit of my own, um, schema coaching, which I felt was the right fit for me because I've done my therapy and it's not like I need that approach anymore, I feel like at this stage, but schema coaching is nice because it's about enhancing what I'm doing and making sure I don't burn out.

[00:14:35] And, um, I think my mantra this year was to actually slow down and dial it back by say 20%. Because I tend to go full speed ahead and just race through things and just like I enjoy it. That's I think that's the thing is I actually enjoy it. I have quite a strong like my impulsive child and happy child modes. They kind of collude and then I just get wild ideas and then my Healthy Adult sometimes gets on board with that and goes, you know what? If you plan it out, you co you so can do it. And I just have to make sure it's that mode versus my perfectionistic over controller that puts together a really tightly structured plan. So as you can see, I do a lot of thinking about what mode is at play today, and that's how I help keep myself accountable.

[00:15:21] Bronwyn: That's so amazing. I feel like you just described me as well, but I don't do the thing where I'm like, oh, they're colluding. I'm just let me do it!

[00:15:28] But I'm immediately saying how useful self reflection is because then you don't end up like a disheveled heap on the couch, um, which is what can happen.

[00:15:39] Daniela: That's why I now know. And in the last two years, I've really had to just force myself to go, you know what, we need to slow down. Let's examine, you know, times where we feel burnt out. Why is that? And in the moment whilst you have that high, the dopamine hit of like, yeah, I'm going to do, I feel really excited. I'm going to do this. Then it's kind of balancing it out of, okay, well, what's the cost of committing to XYZ in like a week, two weeks. Do you actually have breaks scheduled in?

[00:16:10] So I think it's important to have some idle time. I know there's a lot of studies nowadays that say, um, it is important to have a balance and idle time is actually really helpful. And that's when our brains also get the opportunity to get even more creative. It's in the moments where we have time to pause that sometimes we can have new ideas.

[00:16:28] Bronwyn: Yeah, I try and foster that these days. And then when I'm feeling bored, I'll like get grumpy and I'd be like stupid boredom. Okay, I guess I'll be bored. I'm like supposed to be creative right now. Aren't I? Yeah, boredom. Um, but then like, you know, it's, it's nice. Um, but yes, no idle time is important.

[00:16:45] So maybe let's just summarize. I guess there's a few benefits of doing inner work. I think one of them that we're pointing out is that it can. Prevent burnout and make us more aware of when we could be slipping into burnout. So it's a really good self care strategy. I think another benefit is that, that we've pointed out is that it increases like your awareness of what is your stuff and what's the client's stuff in sessions, um, so you can separate the two.

[00:17:11] For me, I reckon another benefit is that it really, for me, it increases my, uh, humility with clients because I recognize like having gone through therapy myself, that change is really hard. And so I find that I'm incredibly patient with clients. I talk about that change can be very hard with them and what's keeping them going through this change process and that I'll be walking alongside with them.

[00:17:36] But yeah, it makes me not, be too... not, not nasty, but just like not too demanding of my clients, which as somebody who has unrelenting standards, cause I can be quite demanding of myself, sometimes I can carry over into other people, but I find like having gone through that personal work, I'm really, quite gentle in my therapeutic interactions, which I think increases the relationships.

[00:18:00] Are there any other benefits that you've found to doing your inner work in terms of like how that shows up in your own psychology work?

[00:18:07] Daniela: Definitely. So I definitely agree with what you just said there in terms of like that level of empathy, like it's just a deeper level of empathy when you're on the other side. And it's something that I, with a lot of my supervisees as well, I go through the kind of that process because in schema therapy, we can examine our own stuff. And I always say, you know, when you experience it, you get a feel for it. You truly can understand why it's so tough. You can understand why there might be a block. And like you said, it helps you be more patient.

[00:18:36] I think the other added benefit is sometimes you learn new skills without having to go to a workshop because you've learned from your clinician, a therapist. And I love that because then you can go, Ooh, okay, I'm going to try this out with my clients. And I know it's evidence based practice. It's something that's helpful. And. You know, that, that's wonderful because if you benefited from it, maybe they will too. So I think that's actually something that's really nice that a lot of people don't talk about.

[00:19:03] Bronwyn: That's such a good point and like, I'm laughing because I'm currently in therapy now. And like two sessions ago, I was talking about radical acceptance with my therapist. Guess what? Every one of my clients heard later that week, I was like, have you heard of this great thing called radical acceptance?

[00:19:18] Daniela: Absolutely.

[00:19:20] Bronwyn: It's really good. It's just like, you know, it's just at the front of your mind and then you're like, Oh, okay. I can use this. Um, so yeah, that is a huge benefit.

[00:19:27] Daniela: Or like old, old techniques or skills that you might have... Cause you know how, like from time to time you have like your favorite skills and then you put some on the back burner and then you get experienced again. And then it's like, Ooh, this is actually a really good strategy. I'm going to bring this back into the therapy room and work at it.

[00:19:45] So I think it's really good to be self aware, have that self reflection so that things don't get stale either because it can be like, for instance, I do so much, um, schema therapy work. That's the bulk of my work. And so I have a habit of like, I typically favor more imagery re scripting, but through, and I think we mentioned this in one of our other podcast episodes is through, um, self reflection and working with supervisors and understanding our own feelings that come up, I was able to strengthen my chair work skills because I realized I wasn't as comfortable there was an element of avoidance.

[00:20:23] I got to do it, um, not in my own personal therapy, but more in my supervision session, but then experiencing it as the client, it helped me to then actually feel more comfortable and be guided in doing it more and more with my clients. And I just find it so powerful. So it's nice to make sure that, you know, we're, yeah, we are able to use, you know, all the tools in our toolkit.

[00:20:47] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, absolutely. And maybe we can talk about strengths as well, because it's really important to understand our like maladaptive schemas. So, listeners of the podcast will have heard me say this before, but I feel like our top schemers as therapists is self sacrificing, unrelenting standards or both. Their like our favoured compensatory schemas, so it's helpful to understand them and why they've come up, our histories and how they play into it. But I also think it's really important to understand our strengths, like the, you know, the happy child part of us as well and the healthy adult part. Could you speak a bit to that?

[00:21:19] Daniela: Definitely. So I think this is where it's really important, especially when in our childhoods, let's say we've built up certain schemas, like you said, with unrelenting standards or self sacrificing, that we don't look at like the more positive schemas and look at play and spontaneity, and those are such protective factors because that also helps prevent burnout, and I think that it's... you know, therapy sessions don't have to always be like doom and gloom where we're just talking about all the negatives, but it's actually quite uplifting to focus on, well, what sparks joy for you?

[00:21:56] And a lot of clients, especially the ones who might have, let's say, emotion deprivation may struggle with that. And if we have our own emotion deprivation schemas, that might also get activated where we actually don't think about bringing this up in the therapy room because we're so focused on, okay, how do I, you know, treat your trauma? And then it's nice to have a look at, well, what kind of factors are protective factors that help you feel better as we process your trauma? And a lot of clients will say, "You know, I feel my happiest when I'm engaging in something that just helps me be creative", for instance, or, or interacting with their children or just doing something that's just for them.

[00:22:39] And I think, you know, for my own healthy adult, being able to make time to switch off from work where most of the time it's engaging with my friends, um, and just doing something fun and enjoyable. I love crafting. So over the weekend I made my son's Easter hat for the hat parade and it was with the glue gun and it just, there's something. quite nice and like my mind just goes kind of blank where I'm just not thinking about anything. I'm just being present and mindful and then I feel quite good after.

[00:23:13] So again, like in therapy that like something like that where we talk about how can you actually just tap into these modes where it just feels like you're present and engaged and you're happy and you're feeling free and it is actually something that it can be really hard for some clients, as well as therapists, so it's, there's a lot of, I think, strength to exploring that.

[00:23:38] Bronwyn: I completely agree and you mentioned earlier that sometimes we can forget... like I have emotional deprivation is my primary schemer and then the other ones are compensatory schemers. But you're right, like prior to doing my own inner work, it's like, I would forget that that yeah, people need to be praised. Um, people need to be told they're doing a good job. We need to be like, have humor and play and spontaneity. And those things are really important.

[00:24:04] And it was only through doing my own inner work and checking out, like, what kind of re parenting messages do I need that I was able to be Oh, maybe clients who also have those schemas might... may need these similar reparenting messages. And this is how we can bring that into sessions. So it highlighted to me that maybe there were some things absent from my sessions, which weren't necessarily perpetuating like an emotion deprivation schema, but it's like they were just missing from the schema healing.

[00:24:32] Daniela: Absolutely. I think it's something that, even for myself, like, it wasn't in more recent years where I would bring it up and actually ask more questions around, well, what do you do... for... I think a lot of the time people think self care, oh, I need to have a break, I need to have a rest, but I differentiate, differentiate self care from like, play and just, you know, things that you can do for joy and just... it's, there's something about, I love the Happy Child mode. It's something that I struggled with. And I think it's because as well as like some of the core messages that a lot of us get when we're younger, and I can understand why, cause it's probably part of limit setting by parents, but it's kind of like, oh, you have to finish all your work before you're allowed to play. Um, and then as adults, I don't know about you, Bron, but my list of life admin is like never ending. If I waited until that list finished, I'd, I'd, I don't know what would happen.

[00:25:31] Bronwyn: Oh, you'd never play.

[00:25:32] Daniela: I'd never play. So it's almost like you have to rescript that message for yourself as an adult and see it as not so black and white and go, you know what, in order to keep going, we need the play inserted in throughout that so that we can actually keep going. And it's the same as, you know, whether you're a clinician or whether you're a client, this is quite a universal message, I think.

[00:25:56] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, absolutely. And I guess if you don't re script that message, we may be unknowingly passing that on to our clients. So it may be like, yeah, so you do need to work before you can play. Whereas if we have a look at our own stuff there, we can be like, no, the playing helps us to work. Like, so, and playing just makes things nicer.

[00:26:14] So it's, it's much better. I also love the happy child because for me, I work with a lot of neurodivergent clients like particularly ADHD'ers, and they've heard mindfulness like from everyone, everywhere, and they usually hate it. And so we talk about happy child instead, um, and how to get into flow states. So like for me, ADHDers. So it's like play a video game, but really get focused into it and really enjoy it, go for a walk and really notice everything else around you. So it's like movement. Um, and then being nonjudgmental towards yourself about engaging in those activities. And yeah, I feel like being an ADHD and myself, it's like, I wouldn't have cottoned onto that unless I had done my own inner work.

[00:26:57] Daniela: Oh, I love that. That's so beautiful. I'm going to have to pick your brain about that later on off the pod because I'd love to weave that into my therapy as well.

[00:27:05] Bronwyn: Yeah. No, it's so much more successful cause literally I have ADHD'ers coming to me being like, I'll be like, so what are your preferences? And they'll be like, just don't do mindfulness and me and I'll be like, alrighty.

[00:27:14] Daniela: Do you know what? I struggle with mindfulness myself, so, and I've always thought, I relate a lot to my ADHD clients. So, you know, I think there's a bit of neurodiversity in all of us and I, I love just working very creatively, which is what I can hear from the way you're working is, you know, thinking outside of the box and making it work for yourself, making it work for your clients.

[00:27:36] Bronwyn: Yep. Yeah. And yeah, so it really helps to be neurodiversity affirming because you're not trying to squeeze them into like the research, which is like, you know, you should do mindfulness 20 minutes a day and you should, you know, chew each bite and swirl it around your mouth and really enjoy the aromas and sensation of that food each bite, which just like bores the shit out of ADHD clients.

[00:27:56] Daniela: I'd like to mindfully acknowledge I could do that, but also I would like to mindfully not do that.

[00:28:02] Bronwyn: I would like to mindfully decline.

[00:28:07] Accepting that, okay, there's different, different strokes, different folks. And so we can all do things that make sense for us and we can bring that non judgment to it has been wonderful. And yeah, I love activating happy child as part of that. Because yeah, quite often neurodivergent folks have been told that the happy part of themselves are not good and that they need to be different. So yeah, it's also like really reaffirming and validating and yeah, I really love it.

[00:28:32] Daniela: Think that's so beautiful and how lucky your clients are.

[00:28:36] Bronwyn: Oh, I hope so. Okay, so I wanted to talk about, a few myths around doing inner work. Is that alright?

[00:28:47] Daniela: Yeah, of course.

[00:28:48] Bronwyn: And then we can go into like any challenges that people may face in going through their own inner work and any techniques or tips that we have. But there is an episode that we've done earlier on the podcast, which is called therapist and therapy. It's one of my favorite episodes. We go through a few of these myths in that episode, but I just wanted to bring them up here as well.

[00:29:10] So. There's a myth that therapists who engage in inner work are emotionally unstable or unfit to practice. So if you go to therapy, if you want to examine your own stuff, then you must be doing really bad.

[00:29:22] Daniela: My goodness, I hope that's not the case. I so disagree with that because I think... if you think about it, if you're willing to do the work, it shows that you're motivated to make sure that you're actually well and stable. It's the people who potentially are in denial that there's challenges that, that's actually quite a concern.

[00:29:43] So I think it's actually such a strength. It's showing that, hey, I care enough about myself that I feel that I want to do things that might be preventative or that I want to be in a better space and learn techniques and strategies so that I can manage stresses in life as they come up. It takes a lot of vulnerability and courage for anyone, clients and therapists to be in therapy. And I think it's something that should be encouraged because we all deserve help and care. And if we can't practice what we preach, then are we in, you know, the position to do what we do?

[00:30:19] Bronwyn: 100%. I couldn't agree with more. And maybe this is a good time to bring up as well that in some countries, doing your own therapy is actually mandatory as part of the training program. So it's not like a matter of you only go to therapy when you need to do inner work. It's like you need to do inner work from the start. So I know in some psychoanalytic programs in Germany, for example, it's part of the program. I know in some college programs in the US, it's part of the program as well. And they have to have, uh, like a few hundred hours of mandatory personal therapy..

[00:30:49] Daniela: Wow.

[00:30:50] Bronwyn: Yeah. So that really shows that they believe that this enhances client outcomes and enhances therapist effectiveness and our own self care as well. So much so that it's, it's compulsory.

[00:31:02] Daniela: That is so interesting. And I'm just trying to imagine if we did that here in Australia, how that would actually , just change everything potentially.

[00:31:13] Bronwyn: It would be really interesting because you know, cause cause of our workforce shortage as well. I wonder if we'd be able to get everybody into therapy and whether that would highlight like that we need more psychologists.

[00:31:23] Daniela: I didn't even think about that. I mean, that would be, imagine if that was a really cool study where some universities for their programs will just run, you know, an RCT and have some students who go through, I don't know, maybe, maybe not hundreds. Cause like you said, there's a shortage. It's like. A certain amount of hours and compare across the groups.

[00:31:42] Bronwyn: Yeah. That'd be so interesting.

[00:31:43] Daniela: An idea for listeners. Anyone else want to do some research? That's a good one.

[00:31:48] But I think it's good because it's literally like, um, it's yeah, it's kind of like that, I think I've mentioned before in the podcast, um, one of the reflective practices and workshops is schema therapy inside out where you go through all your own stuff. But this is, like schema therapy or just therapy inside out on steroids across in, you know, certain countries where, you know, they go through the full extent and process. I'm just, I have so many curious thoughts about how that actually works. So if there are any, um, I guess German listeners or who have studied over there, I'd love to know and share the insights of what it's like.

[00:32:29] Bronwyn: Me too, actually. I've never met anybody who, um, had to go through a compulsory, therapy thing, but I'd be really interested in how they perceived that that helped with their practice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:32:41] Okay. Another myth is that inner work is irrelevant for therapists who prioritize evidence based practices. So if you're just doing evidence based interventions, then you don't need to do inner work. All good.

[00:32:56] Daniela: If you're a robot, then I'd say that's fine. Um, but, I, how can you, I think, It's almost impossible to not get triggered or activated in some way, even if you're doing evidence based practice. And so I think it's so important to be aware. You may not choose to end up in a therapy setting and do your own, you know, structure is therapy with another psychologist, for instance, but I still think there's so much value in being able to have that time to self reflect.

[00:33:32] And for some people, they want to do that inner work at their own time and pacing. I know there's. It's a big movement of a lot of, um, mental health workers who enjoy doing journaling as well and do it in a very structured way of like that deliberate self practice. Um, I certainly have some workbooks that I like to look at that are, again, more schema oriented, but help me to think about the way that I do the work with my clients, how I can continue to upskill and better support them, better support myself.

[00:34:01] So, I'd say you can, it's great to do evidence based practice because, you know, that's really needed. Um, but it's still just as important to do our own inner work, whether it be with a clinician or on our own, to be able to be aware of how dynamics, are being shaped in the therapy room because of how important the therapist client alliance is.

[00:34:27] Bronwyn: Yeah, I echo that 100%. Like for me, what I did was I did this really good online CBT course. I can't remember. It was like wire... psych wire. That's it. So I did this psych wire course. It was taught by Judith Beck. Um, so, you know, one of the, big wigs in CBT and I was the CBT therapist. Um, I used to ACT as well, but I would say for the first two years that I was a psych, I was very strictly CBT or ACT, and in doing CBT their courses did not go through it all. how to identify dynamics that were happening in the room with clients, they emphasize that therapeutic alliance was important, but it was only important like insofar as like, you know, have you got a good working alliance where you can work well together, but it didn't encourage you to have a look at the dynamics.

[00:35:20] And I feel like, on reflection, that was a massive disservice both to me and to my clients. Um, because now that I know schema therapy, I'm like constantly thinking to myself, I'm like, are we reenacting a dynamic that has been present in this client's history? Um, and that has been problematic for them, or are we contributing to a new dynamic, which is healing and helpful for them?

[00:35:43] And, and it's only through doing schema and like the best supervision I've gotten so far has also been psychoanalytic psychotherapy supervision, which had a look at transference and counter transference, that I feel like it's really like, like I've gone from like a level one to like a level three sort of thing and how I like think about relationships in the room. So it's like, even though I was prioritizing evidence based practices, I feel like I was missing this whole aspect of therapy in the relationships which now I really prioritize.

[00:36:12] So it's like if clients said stuff to me, like, and, um, they were like, for example, they were telling me something that seemed inconsequential to me to therapy, like maybe they had an argument with their partner or something I'd be like, yeah, yeah, that's cool. But now when I have a look at that, I'm like, what is this client trying to tell me? What's the meaning here? How did they. Want me to respond? What am I feeling pulled into responding. Like if I say this, um, is that going to be a healing response to them or is that feeding into something that they expected from me? Maybe they didn't expect validation from bringing that up in the therapy room. So it's just, it's just got a whole new level. Sorry, that was a bit of a rant.

[00:36:48] Daniela: But as you were saying that, I was just thinking, because I agree with you so much about evidence based practice from a very strictly CBT framework. like for instance, as you were saying that, I was thinking a lot about, so I've done some supervision around somatic experiencing, and in CBT we talk about physiological symptoms more as like, you know, anxiety, like this is what a panic attack is, and you know, understanding the body, but we don't really talk about somatic experiences the way that the body holds, um, the symptoms.

[00:37:19] And I think it wasn't until I read The Body Keep Score, which is a very popular book. um, that I, and I had some supervision where my supervisor was actually asking me, well, what did you feel in your body? Because I'm, I'm often someone who's just in their head too much. And I think about, I have way too many thoughts and I get those racing thoughts, but, um, Let's tune into the body.

[00:37:41] And in learning how to do that, I've started doing it so much more with my clients and I've learned so many people are really out of touch with their bodies and then they don't know how to respond when their bodies get activated. But their minds, they're like, oh, it's fine. Like they've detached off from certain things that they've tried to squash it, but their body's trying to release these symptoms.

[00:38:03] And I think, yeah, traditional CBT doesn't really, It's like, okay, do some more breathing, which is all great and well, but like, how do we actually understand what the body's trying to say? And just even with positioning, like the way that I do a lot of the mode work and scheme is actually identifying The physiological states that accompany each mode and how it feels in the body and the movement. And I think that's just really, for me, supercharged my therapy skills. Again, it's something that you have to go through and learn to be able to also relay back.

[00:38:41] Bronwyn: Yeah. I literally remember like, when a therapist first asked me like, how does that feel in your body? And I was like, what's this stupid question?

[00:38:49] Daniela: What do you mean? It feels uncomfortable or it feels...

[00:38:52] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:38:53] Daniela: My body feels the way it feels.

[00:38:56] Bronwyn: Yeah, but it's like literally over the past few weeks, I've been experiencing some stress and I think to myself, the body really does keep the fucking score. And I'm like, it really does.

[00:39:08] Daniela: And it helps you understand why people might engage in some behaviors to self soothe and numb off, right? Like how they might drink and do things because they're trying to escape that feeling and put a bandaid on it. But your body's going to allow that maybe to happen for a little bit, but it's going to keep coming back with a vengeance.

[00:39:25] Bronwyn: It is, it is. So yeah, I love body approaches now and yet, and sounds like that's something that you had to go through to recognize.

[00:39:31] Daniela: Definitely, and now it's, it's the question that comes up all the time, like, Oh, I'm, I'm just noticing the way that people hold their bodies, and then, now, well, I guess the thing is, because we're doing so much more telehealth, and on Zoom, we can see ourselves, whereas when we're in a therapy, like a, in person session, You can't see yourself, right?

[00:39:50] So now I'm more conscious as well as how my body because I think there's a lot of studies that look at even like mirroring and if you can actually tense up, the other person is likely to also tense up. So now I'm more conscious of how I appear on the zoom screen.

[00:40:04] Bronwyn: Yeah. No, me too. Absolutely. No, that's so interesting. Um, okay. Last myth that I have is inner work is a solitary endeavor that therapists must navigate alone. Um, so what do you think of this

[00:40:18] Daniela: Well, I disagree and that's because when I did the schema therapy inside out workshop, we were in a group and it was so powerful to just have everyone work and to support each other. And then having said that. You know, there's different, um, ways to do inner work. Yes, you can work through it on your own if you really want to, but you can also do it with a therapist. You can go through it and touch on it with your supervisor if it's appropriate. And I think that that helps to reduce any shame that we might feel, or guilt, like that, Oh, I don't deserve this, or you know, there's something really wrong with me. And so I think it's something that is really important that if you feel, I guess, comfortable enough, that it's okay to share it.

[00:41:05] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, I agree. And I really wanted to bring up this myth because I wanted to hear that response from you and just add to that, that, yeah, I don't believe that this is something we need to navigate alone. I don't believe it's shameful to look at your own stuff. I believe it's essential. Um, and yeah, you can talk about it with your therapist. You can talk about it with your peers. Yeah, you don't have to navigate it alone. And it's really that collaborative reflection and feedback that can really enrich your inner work process.

[00:41:32] Daniela: And if anyone is judging you for that, it says more about them than you, so just remember that.

[00:41:38] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely. So I just wanted to go into some, I've written down here trips and techniques, but I think I meant to say tips, tips and techniques for integrating self reflection and self awareness into our clinical practice. So could you tell us a bit about... Um, so there's this good therapist mode, I guess, and that's what we strive to be. But yeah, how, how do we actually go about like strengthening that healthy adult good therapist mode?

[00:42:07] Daniela: there's a, there's actually a healthy adult visualization imagery, uh, exercise that you can do, and it was published, I read about it in one of the, the ISST, ISST bulletin, and it was by, uh, Remco van der, I can never say his last name, but you know who I'm talking about...

[00:42:26] Bronwyn: Rem, I, I just say Remco. Yeah.

[00:42:29] Daniela: And it's, it's about, and it's something that you can model to um clients, but um, you would want to model it, um, Based on your own experiences, you, so you think about, you know, what's a difficult situation that you went through as an, as a clinician and you want to really describe it in terms of cognitive, behavioral and emotional. So it's reflecting on a challenging situation and describing it so that let's say in that moment.

[00:42:56] So if I give an example, so for me, it might've been an example where I had to deal with a difficult, not the client, but the client, but the clients partner who was a little bit of a bully and coming at me a bit. And in that moment, I remember just taking a deep breath and really like adjusting my body and trying to sit up tall and straight and staying calm and understanding that this is more about that person and what they have going on and that this must be very scary for them.

[00:43:29] But that for me, I know that In my heart and in my soul, what is really helpful and important right now, which is looking after the needs of my client and I could stay calm and firm. And I remember seeing myself just calmly stating, Well, if you disagree with my approach, that's absolutely fine, and your partner doesn't have to be here in therapy, so you're more than welcome to leave, but if you'd like to stay, then I am going to need you to sit down and not raise your voice with me. And treat me with the respect that I would like to give to you.

[00:44:08] And so for me, kind of just thinking about that, that's something that I really think about when I think, Oh, when was I like a healthy adult or good therapist part myself. And then I work with clients to go through and have a visualization in their history of, okay, what's the time in your life where you felt like you were, confident or strong and for a lot of clients if they have children they had to stand up for their kids they might use an example of when they were parenting for others. It might be when they advocated for someone that they cared for or where they worked really hard to achieve something.

[00:44:44] So I find that that helps if you have a really solid visualization and when the client needs it to feel strong in that moment to go back to that image. So for me, I go back to being in the therapy room at, you know, I was working at Westmead, which is near the hospital out in Sydney, and I just, I still remember every moment. So visually, and that actually helps me.

[00:45:06] And so I find that really helpful. So it's, it's just searching through and it's like a positive imagery that you can practice, rehearse and record and play. And it's kind of like that kind of, you know, you stand up strong and you know, what's your super Superman, super woman, super person mode. What does that look like? And if you're very creative, you can draw it out as well.

[00:45:28] Bronwyn: I love that. I'm going to do that with...

[00:45:29] Daniela: Yeah. So that's something that I found really powerful. Um, but also there are certain objects. So I love using transitional objects.

[00:45:37] Bronwyn: What do you use as your transitional objects? I've always like, I've, I've not done it because I'm like, what I've, I froze on what to use.

[00:45:44] Daniela: So I'm going to admit that, it came from doing a clean up. At home of toys and we in our household, there was a phase of Super Mario. Um, and we have the entire collection of figurines and more. And so I brought it into work. We've got, so whatever figurines I can find, it's like minions, Mario, Minecraft is the flavor of the year. Um, I will just bring it in and I'll let clients use like choose their modes because when I do chair work, it gets confusing to remember what chairs what and I use post it notes, but sometimes it's a bit more fun to put figurines on chairs.

[00:46:25] And then I let the client take the healthy adult figurine with them. And they, they keep it in their little pockets and they take it with them. And it's fun and it's, You know, having figurines is also very, like, it could be very normal. Cause I know a lot of clinicians use, like, stones or rocks or, i, I just, I like to, well, I thought of it as, um, reducing landfill by taking these things from, from the playroom to the office.

[00:46:52] Bronwyn: Reuse, recycle. I love it. Sustainable.

[00:46:54] Daniela: So and I know, um, some clinicians use like ducks. Like I know Nadine has duck therapy and I think you know it's like get creative. Or you know, things that the client like have a lot of meaning to clients. So some clients really connect to certain animals or colors. So I, yeah, you can be as creative as you want, but it helps to have that. something physical to hold on to, and then they bring it into therapy, they keep it safe. Some of my clients will take a photo to send me to show where that figurine lives, like it's, if it's, um, so some clients who are in high pressured work environments have it sitting on their desk because that's when they need it most because that's when their critic modes are most activated.

[00:47:36] Bronwyn: Yeah. That's so cool. And I love, I love that. Thank you for sharing that with us. The visualization that's really powerful. And I always think like, you know, what's good for clients like is usually good for us as well. So us having a figurine, us having like a healthy adult figure to draw on. So sometimes I'll get clients to use a magic phone that they can call their wise, nurturing, healthy adult, and they can draw on them in moments when they're really stressed as well. And I think that that's good for us as well.

[00:48:04] Another thing that I do, my, my own visualization that I use, which I got from Scott Kellogg, who's a schema.

[00:48:10] Daniela: I love Scott.

[00:48:13] Bronwyn: Um, and I, I watched him do this brilliant, brilliant seminar. It was a chair work seminar. Um, and I loved it. And from then on, I've taken this visualization with me, but it was a self compassion visualization. So for a lot of folks with unrelenting standards, we're really hard on ourselves when we make mistakes. And I just remember a few lines from this, um, visualization.

[00:48:35] But pretty much it's talking to yourself. as though you're in the chair and being like, I know everything about you. I see that you've made a mistake, but I also see the kindness and compassion that you give to everyone. I know everything about you. I know the love that you give to people. I know everything about you. I see the times where you feel like you've stuffed up, where you've made things worse, but I also see the times that you've cried and that you've made amends. I know everything about you. I see you and I love you.

[00:49:01] It's so, it was such a beautiful, um, imagery. And then like later on in the imagery, he goes like, you are a person. Every single person on this earth makes mistakes. You are a human too. There are billions of people on this earth. Everyone makes mistakes. I still love you and I still support you. So like I say, a lot of those messages to myself and I just think it's so beautiful.

[00:49:22] And like, yeah, so for my own good therapist mode, it's really like being compassionate with myself. If I feel like something hasn't landed right with a client or I've done something that like, Oh, I wish I'd done that differently. It's having that self compassion practice really helps me tap back into that healthy adult good therapist.

[00:49:39] Daniela: That gave me goosebumps and I could

[00:49:40] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:49:41] Daniela: Pulling on my heartstrings and like, I'm just thinking, oh my gosh, I, I, I've only done like a brief seminar of Scott's and I'm really, really hoping he comes back with, um,

[00:49:52] Bronwyn: Oh, I'd love him too. Oh, she's amazing. She was

[00:49:55] Daniela: Oh, they're incredible. Um, so I'm hoping they come back next year, but yeah, I just think that's such a good idea. And I think he had mentioned that we, everything was crammed in because the four dialogues, like they was all crammed into one day. So I remember my brain racing, but as you were saying, I think, Oh, I think I remember him doing that. And so thank you because now guess what I'm going to do this way. Everyone self compassion again!

[00:50:21] Bronwyn: Yeah, it's a great, it's a great one. I actually like went back and like rewound the webinar several times so I could type out the script, um, so I could make sure that I use it. So yeah, I think finding something that really like, and you know, I only knew that that was effective for me from knowing my schemas and from knowing that that's the kind of stuff that I really need to hear for myself.

[00:50:43] Daniela: That's so powerful.

[00:50:45] Bronwyn: Yeah. Okay. Another question before we wrap up is, This is like that I struggle with, so I'm curious to hear your answer to this, but how do you integrate ongoing self reflection into your professional development as a therapist? Because for me, like there is so much admin work. There is so much like stuff I need to do, like treatment planning, review treatment planning, like learning new things that I can share with clients. Like, how do you fit in self reflection on top of this?

[00:51:12] Daniela: So, I think I keep myself accountable for it. And, I think this is where I schedule things in. But, I schedule it in because it's something I reflect on in my, like, schema coaching. And I do it with Tracy Hunter, who's from Queensland, who's a phenomenal human. Her and Rachel Wheeler run the Wellbeing Codes and, um, I did the therapist self care retreat two years ago.

[00:51:38] And through my work with Tracy, I see Tracy maybe once every month or sometimes it's two months, but, um, Before every session, I prep. I actually write down my reflections. She got me to write down my mantra for the year, which was very much around slowing down. So, I think from week to week, at the end of each week as well, I just find that I'll naturally drift into just thinking about, Oh, what was my week like? It's because it's something that I talk about with my kids or with my husband, it's like, okay, well, what's our takeaway message from this week? I'm trying to help kind of balance out of, okay, well, what were the areas that were challenging? What are the areas that we were really proud of? So that, okay, how do we overcome these challenges if they come up? Next week or the week after and this is me trying to do all that emotional coaching and praying that my kids don't develop, you know, any maladaptive schemas.

[00:52:31] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:52:32] Daniela: But I, I find that in that process, I have to model it. So in our conversations from time to time and look, there's, you know, there are weeks where it's so busy that we don't get to it. Um, Um, but for the most part, for myself personally, it's because I have these monthly sessions or even in my supervision, I do reflect on it a lot because I see the value in it, and it feels nice because it feels like I'm giving myself permission to engage in self care and, you know, I think that it's so valuable because I'm trying to tune into myself more.

[00:53:06] And as I was saying, you know, that body work. So when my body feels not quite right, I realize, Ooh, it's time to do this. And I try not to wait until it feels not quite right. So yeah, I, that, that's how I do it. I think it's kind of woven in because of my own experiences and history and having gone through various periods of stress and burnout that now it's just so weird. It's kind of like needing to, you go to the gym for your physical, it's like mental exercise, I guess.

[00:53:34] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:53:37] Bronwyn: Yeah. Great. Thank you so much, Daniela. And what's the biggest takeaway you hope listeners will learn from our conversation today?

[00:53:45] Daniela: I think the biggest takeaway is that I hope that they feel no shame or guilt in examining your own stuff, that you deserve to have that. That yes, there are all, there will be always numerous reasons why you can put it off or not do it, you know, but it's so valuable, it's so important, it doesn't have to be as big as your brain might make it into. Like, you can start small, you can start with your own kind of just general self reflection. Plenty of therapy books out there. There's a lot of even podcast episodes you can listen to that help you get the ball rolling. There's, you know, group supervision formats that address that.

[00:54:24] There's a lot of ways where you can, if you want to dip your toe in the water, just start really slow and give yourself that permission, allow yourself to explore and see that, you know, you are just as deserving as anyone else to get that care and support.

[00:54:39] Bronwyn: Hmm. Yeah. I don't have anything to add to that. I thought that was beautiful. So Daniela, if listeners want to learn more about you or get in touch, where can they find you?

[00:54:50] Daniela: So I have two websites that they can probably look me up on. So one is my private practice, Mind Wealth Psychology. So that's, um, I think you'll share the link on your site so I won't spell it all out. And then Project Horizen, which is my culturally responsive, um, little passion project. And, um, in August I'll actually be helping co facilitate the schema therapy inside out training with Ruth holt and Rita Younan in Palm Cove, which is, I'd like to add, voted one of the best beaches in the world. So that's, that's a selling point. Up in Cairns. Yeah. Um, 30 to 31st of August.

[00:55:29] Bronwyn: Mmm.

[00:55:31] Daniela: Anyone needs a tropical getaway, um, and a good background to doing some reflective practice in a safe environment, please come meet us up in Palm Cove for some, you know, you go do your reflections, then go chill out by the pool by the beach and, you know, have a drink, have a good sleep in, in the morning.

[00:55:52] Bronwyn: Sounds beautiful. Oh my gosh. I'll put those links in the show notes and thank you so much, Daniela, for coming on the podcast. It's been such a pleasure to have you and thank you for your vulnerability and sharing your experiences with us. I really appreciate it and I'm sure listeners do too.

[00:56:06] Daniela: Thanks Bron, thanks for having me. It's always so fun and it's always, you know, so enjoyable having a chat. So I hope listeners enjoy this episode.

[00:56:13] Bronwyn: Me too. I think they will. And as always, thank you listeners for listening. If you're loving the show and don't want to miss an episode, do press follow on your podcast listening app, because then the shows just drop into your subscription. So they're always there and you always have the next episode.

[00:56:28] And if you love the podcast, don't leave us a five star review. It really does help other people find the podcast. Okay. So that's a wrap. Thanks for listening to Mental Work. I hope you have a good one. I'll catch you next time. Bye.