"Why I chose contract work" (with Jordan Turner)

[00:00:00] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers. Welcome back to the Mental Work Podcast, your companion to early career psychology, sponsored by the Australian Association of Psychologists. I'm your host, Dr. Bronwyn Milkins, and today we are talking about being a first time contractor, working in a split arrangement. What is it? What's fair, and how do you work in a contractor model?

And to help us unpack it and give us their insights and expertise is Jordan Turner.

Hi Jordan.

[00:00:36] Jordan: Hi Bron, how are you?

[00:00:37] Bronwyn: I'm well, thank you. How are you going?

[00:00:40] Jordan: I'm really great.

[00:00:42] Bronwyn: It's so nice to have you back on the podcast. So listeners, Jordan was on a previous episode where she shared her listener story. It was a fantastic episode. I'll link it in the show notes so you can listen to it. And Jordan, would you mind reminding listeners Who you are, and could you tell us what your non psychology passion is as well?

[00:01:00] Jordan: Uh, hi everybody. I am a psychologist and educational developmental registrar at the moment. My non psychology passion is, uh, several things I was saying, um, but most recently chess, but also I recently, uh, wrote a book of poetry called First Time Mother, which is all about living as a mom. So I would say writing as well.

[00:01:26] Bronwyn: That's amazing. And yes, we were talking off-mic and I was like, congratulations on publishing a book. And you were like, meh. And I was like, that's massive. So listeners, I'm sure you agree that that is massive to publish a book of poetry. Where can they find it, Jordan?

[00:01:40] Jordan: Uh, you can actually just Google it on Amazon, like It's, it's on Amazon and Barnes Noble and all that. Yeah, I think as psychs, we always downplay our achievements. Like, we're always like, oh, you know, big deal. bad. I honestly think that it's just like, part of being a therapist, to be honest.

[00:01:59] Bronwyn: Yeah, a lot of us have that perfectionism, unrelenting standards. So it's kind of just like, meh, whatever. Anybody could write a book of poetry.

[00:02:08] Jordan: It's so true. Yep.

[00:02:10] Bronwyn: I'll link it in the show notes and I'll see if I can find it.

We're so excited to have you back on. So you brought me this topic, but I thought it was a great topic for early career psychs because one of the first things I think we need to unpacked is What is a contractor and what is a split arrangement? Because I think online people are even confused about what is a split arrangement and they see 60 and they're like, I don't understand what is happening. So could you just tell us a bit, what is a contractor? What is a split arrangement?

[00:02:41] Jordan: Yeah. So, um, when we're thinking about contractors, I guess we're contrasting that with a salaried employee. So when you're working in private practice or in government or whatever, usually you're on a salary, whereas a contractor, um, is like a paid gig. So you, basically, you kind of work for the hour that they pay you for and then you get paid that hour and you're your own employer and they're contracting you to work for the practice

[00:03:08] Bronwyn: Yeah, I I find it difficult to conceptualize in psychology. So I always just imagine like, let's say there's a building project and you can't do everything in the building project. So you're going to get someone to do the electricity and they're a contractor. You're going to get someone to do the windows and they're a contractor.

So they're not part of Building are us, but you're employing them, well, contracting them to do a specific job and they choose when to come and they bring their tools to do the job. You don't give them the window making equipment or anything. Does that sound about right?

[00:03:41] Jordan: Yeah, totally. You're like, I was going to say the plumber comes in to unblock the, the mental pipes, I guess. Um, And then like the, the business pays you to do that, uh, and you kind of go on your way, but you're, you're your own entity, your own business. You're the plumbing business that comes into the practice to do the mental plumbing.

[00:04:04] Bronwyn: Totally. Yes. That's a, that's a good way of putting it. And so in private practice, like you said, you could have a salaried position where you're an employee, in which case, um, let's just call it Lotus Psychology, Apologies if anybody has their practice. It's just a random name I picked out because flower plus psychology seems to be a thing.

[00:04:26] Jordan: Oh, there you go.

[00:04:27] Bronwyn: Yeah, so if you're an employee of Lotus Psychology, they pay you a salary. If you're a contractor, you're your own independent business and then Lotus Psychology pays you to see clients.

[00:04:41] Jordan: That's right. So you kind of, you have a contract with them, obviously, and kind of say, this is what we agreed upon. I will provide this service to the, to the practice and then you will pay me for that service.

[00:04:55] Bronwyn: So then maybe this naturally goes into what's a split arrangement?

[00:04:58] Jordan: Yeah, so when we're talking about split arrangement, a lot of people are saying, um, like we talked off mic, 60, Was it 60, 40, 70 30? Um, usually the, I, I have not seen it to be the other way around, but the majority goes to the psychologist and then the, the rest kind of goes to the practice. And that's for things like, um, supplying clients, admin, having a place for you to work out of and that sort of thing. And you kind of work under their kind of overhead, but you're your own employee. You're not, if that makes sense, you're, you don't have an employer. You're kind of entering into an arrangement.

[00:05:39] Bronwyn: No, I think that's a good way of putting it. It is an arrangement. So, what is, what is the most common contracting split that you've seen? The most common one I've seen is 60 40. Is that reflective of your experience?

[00:05:52] Jordan: I think that's pretty, standard. I think, I don't see that much more like 70 30 unless it's, I've been told, very bare bones. Um, you can negotiate. that at the beginning, what kind of, um, depending on what kind of things that the practice is providing. Um, but I think from a, from a, like a business owner perspective, 6040 seems to be the most, um, sustainable. That's what I've heard from, from the forums and things like that.

Um, I think it's important to note that, like, whatever the split is you want to kind of make sure that the amount that you're getting so you could be billing like a lot. So if it's 60 40, um, then it's not such a a pain that you're only getting 60 as opposed to 70. For example, if you're billing 250 an hour, you get 150 for an hour.

[00:06:50] Bronwyn: Yeah. That, that makes sense because I often see like on Facebook, people are like, Oh, is 60 40 okay? Or is 70 30? Okay. Like, how much should my split be? But then the response is usually, well, how much are you charging for the client? Because then that will, Uh, determine your end income from that.

[00:07:12] Jordan: Yeah, I think it's also important to note, which a lot of psychs probably don't know, is that you can set how much you're charging. So, I guess, the practice knows, they usually have kind of a standard, but as a contractor, you're allowed to set it. Um, so if it's not aligned to what they say, you say like, hey, like you're within your rights to say, I'm going to charge 250.

[00:07:35] Bronwyn: Yeah. And I want to echo that because my understanding is that it is being a contractor, like that's one of the fundamental things about it. They would set their own fees.

[00:07:44] Jordan: You're naming your price for the practice and they're taking it or leaving it. And if that's how it works.

[00:07:50] Bronwyn: And that makes sense to me because again when I come back to my building analogy it would seem absurd to me if buildings are us was building a big building and then they were telling the plumbers how much that they're going to charge and I'm like no that doesn't make sense.

[00:08:03] Jordan: That's right. Yeah. That's the main thing is that you kind of want to be like, as the plumber, no, I'm going to work for 40 an hour or whatever.

[00:08:12] Bronwyn: But you can talk to the practice owner about that as well so they can say look our contractors generally charge this much in our market that we cater for clients. We've found they're generally willing or able to pay this much. So they can help advise you right?

[00:08:28] Jordan: Yeah, totally. I wouldn't be, like, just totally saying, well, I'm going to charge 500 if somebody around you is charging 250 because I am, we're going way into the expensive, I feel like 250 is like a lot. I was like, oh my gosh, that's so much. But that's kind of the standard now.

Anyway...

[00:08:46] Bronwyn: it is.

[00:08:48] Jordan: Um, and it's not even the recommended. Note to everyone, it's like 280 or something like that.

[00:08:54] Bronwyn: Yeah, I think APS last year and AAPI, I think it's like 300 or 295 or something. It's gone up quite a bit.

[00:09:02] Jordan: Yeah, yeah, it And, and much needed. Cause the other thing you want to keep in mind as a contractor is, you're only being paid for the hours of face to face with the client or what you agreed to be billed on. So like, your admin is not going to be billed. So you want to factor that into what you're billing.

[00:09:22] Bronwyn: Absolutely. I'm so glad you brought that up because another thing that I see on social media is that people, might say I'm a contractor and they might not understand that that means that you don't get paid for admin. Or they're saying that they're a casual and that they're not getting paid for admin. Whereas if you're employed as a casual, you're entitled to at least a three hour shift and you get paid regardless of whether clients turn up or not.

[00:09:53] Jordan: Oh, wow. Yeah, so, I guess if clients don't turn up, you'd hope that the practice has like a no show fee, so still get paid. That's something to think about as a contractor.

[00:10:04] Bronwyn: Yeah, and what's the, what's the go with that, with the no show policy, like, in your experience, like, if they did have a no show policy and then they charged, say, 100 to the client, do you get that or does the practice get that?

[00:10:18] Jordan: I think it's, I think you have to work it out with the practice. But me, yeah, I feel like it's, for me, I've had it that it's the same ratio and I've had 50 50 as well

[00:10:30] Bronwyn: Okay, sure.

[00:10:31] Jordan: But because the admin are the ones who are following up I suppose, yeah it's, it's, I don't know if there's like a defined, somebody else might be able to shout out in comments or something.

[00:10:42] Bronwyn: No, I think, I think you're right. I think it's something to negotiate and maybe, maybe I will point it out to listeners that it's like, like I said, I've never been a contractor. Jordan has been a contractor. Neither of us are legal professionals or HR experts. Um, so we will be pointing you to, um, some resources, but we're hoping just to share what, what we do know and just raise some common questions and hopefully answer a few of them.

But do take what we say with like It's an educated thing that we're saying, but we encourage you to go double check the resources if you're at all unsure. Don't be like Jordan and Bronwyn said on the podcast that this yeah.

Yeah, don't be like that.

[00:11:26] Jordan: Get some angry practice owners coming after us.

[00:11:29] Bronwyn: Totally. Yeah.

[00:11:30] Jordan: Oh no.

[00:11:31] Bronwyn: No. Um, so we're just hoping to raise it because I think it's just a common source of confusion for early career psychs. Understandably, we don't get taught about, you know, contracting arrangements at uni or anything.

[00:11:43] Jordan: Yeah. I feel like that should be something you talk about because I think a lot, a lot of, um, psychs end up going into contracting. if they're not kind of going out on their own or going salary rolled, I feel, I feel like in the last couple of days of my tutorials, they were like, Oh, by the way, you're probably not going to have a consistent salary. You'll probably be a contractor because it pays better than salary.

And you're like, Oh, oh my gosh, that's the other thing you have to factor in the fact that you're you're You don't have a salary, your income is variable, which means that you have to factor it in the same way that if you were a private practice on your own, you might not have clients at a certain time. And you have to make sure you have enough money in the bank to last, because you won't get sick pay either. You won't get, you can, I think you can arrange to have, um, super paid for with the practice, but that's something you talk about in the contract. You also don't get, you know, personal leave.

 There's a lot of autonomy in being a contractor. Um, it's just that you have to pay your cut to get certain things covered by the practice.

[00:12:52] Bronwyn: Yeah. So there's two things in that. First, I think it's now mandatory that employers have to pay super for contractors. I think that changed last year year before. Is this like that you're aware of?

[00:13:07] Jordan: I knew that it was in the works. I didn't know if they'd like, you know, Confirmed it. So I'll have to check with my two practices I'm working at because I've been putting aside money for super and they might be pay paying it, which should be really good.

[00:13:20] Bronwyn: Yeah. So I think it's like 11 percent for super. So that should be on top of. Your contracted split is my understanding.

[00:13:31] Jordan: Yes I hope so. You should definitely make sure that they clarify that. 'cause they might say something like, including super, excluding super your contract. So if you're looking at your contract, read it. Do not just sign it off

[00:13:45] Bronwyn: 100%. I feel like that would be a key piece of advice, listeners, like, yeah, don't just sign it off, read your contract, make sure you understand it, take it to somebody else who is knowledgeable, supervisor, fair work, talk to them about your contract and any, clauses that you are unsure about, because I'm not saying it will come back to bite you in the ass, but like, wouldn't you rather have an informed perspective of what you're getting into?

[00:14:11] Jordan: Yeah. And that's right. And the other, the flip side of that is that contract holds. You accountable, but it also holds them accountable. So if you are not getting paid for something that was listed in your contract, you can go back and be like, Hey, look, um, I've just had a look over our contract and I realized that you're supposed to be paying this and you haven't been.

[00:14:28] Bronwyn: Absolutely. No, it's such a good point.

Jordan, I wanted to turn to just coming off your earlier point about, you mentioned that maybe in your tutorials, it was like, uh, you could be getting paid more in a contractor role than a salary. And I'm curious to know, what drew you to working as a contractor as opposed to a salary position or even a casual position?

[00:14:51] Jordan: I had a really natural, um, progression into contractor role because I started off in private practice as a salaried employee. I just thought that was so much easier than trying to figure out the contracting bit. It's really simple, just like most of us will have had salaried jobs before and kind of just go into it and just get paid and go home.

But, um, I am hoping and very close to, in fact, opening my own private practice. I wanted to kind of get into. my head around being my own boss, so it was a nice kind of gradual transition because what it did was I do have an ABN. I am working for myself, but the stuff like admin, um, policies, procedures, having like sourcing an office and having like people around me to work with as well, Is like still kind of being held for me.

I can even, um, like some people negotiate supervision in their contracts, which I have access to supervision as well. I still kind of have the support of like being in a salaried position in private practice, but also the autonomy of being my own boss and being able to come and go as I please and setting my hours and all of that. It was a nice kind of transition from, you know, salaried employee to working for myself.

[00:16:15] Bronwyn: So it was a good progression for you. It's like when you were first starting out, you were like, okay, this holds me really well if I'm in a salaried position. And then gradually as you wanted more of that autonomy, that's when you were like, okay. I think a contractor position is the right thing for me right now.

[00:16:32] Jordan: Yeah, that's right. And, um, and being able to kind of... work more or less depending on what you've, what your needs are without having to kind of be accountable to, you know, sick leave or... the other nice thing about being a contractor, um, is that you don't have to be in the office all the time. You only have to be there for the, the clients, so you could go home and do your admin in your spare time because nobody's paying you for that.

 On that note, make sure you get really good at taking notes, um, and doing admin efficiently because you're not getting paid. So the quicker you do it, the better.

[00:17:05] Bronwyn: Are you glad that you did the salary to contractor? Do you think you could have done the contracting first?

[00:17:12] Jordan: I think if I was familiar with running my own business, it might have been okay, but I was so new to the idea of having an ABN and all of that. I really just wanted to focus on the practice of being a psychologist first off. I always knew that I wanted to kind of work for myself and have my own practice, but I wanted to learn the ropes. So I've kind of wanted to have that mental load taken away of like, also trying to understand how to run a business.

So, for me, it wasn't the best idea to go straight into contractor. Like I said, I just didn't want to have to figure that out. I just wanted to get into it. But, um, for others who are familiar with running their own business, they might find that easier. Lots of people go into contracting for lots of different reasons. For me, it was just kind of, uh, the natural progression

[00:18:04] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:18:04] Jordan: my own solo private practice.

[00:18:06] Bronwyn: No, that's really helpful to hear. And so I'm wondering, how long did you work as a salaried employee before transitioning to contracting?

[00:18:16] Jordan: I worked probably like two to three years as a salaried employee. Half, I wouldn't say half of it, but a good chunk of it, I was on mat leave. So the other thing is that I got mat leave pay as a salaried employee, and I was kind of looking to have kids soonish, which is why I was on salary. I was like, yeah, so I'm gonna make sure I'm here for 12 months, and then I can get mat leave and all that.

But, um, I don't know if that's necessary. I feel like I feel really confident now. Like I definitely, the practice of being in private practice and kind of doing the psychology bit is easy for me, so I feel like I definitely have the headspace to kind of work on that now.

 And then, like, the next step for me is, is going into solo private practice, so now I have to think as a solo private practice person..., finding rooms, who's going to do the admin, I don't know, insurances,

[00:19:11] Bronwyn: Policies, procedures.

[00:19:13] Jordan: That's right. All that.

[00:19:14] Bronwyn: ...to be my cancellation policy?

[00:19:16] Jordan: That's right. Having to think about that. Um, as an aside, I did, uh, an intake for psychology for myself because psychologists also see psychologists. They had this really beautiful intake procedure. I was like, I love this. I'm just going to take down some notes.

[00:19:31] Bronwyn: I do the same. I did the same thing when I was studying at my, um, private practice. And like, I distinctly remember going in to see my psychologist and we're talking about something and he was like, yeah, but how many clients read the consent forms? And I'm like, I definitely do. I read them very thoroughly. I'm very interested to see what they have. And I'm like, yours great. I've taken some notes.

[00:19:54] Jordan: Yeah. I mean, that's the benefit of being a client as well is gleaning from your just like echo what your therapist said to you the other day.

[00:20:04] Bronwyn: Oh, absolutely. I've got, I had so many consent form templates and like policy templates. So actually, as a, as a very like, uh, neurodivergent person who loves like systems and stuff, I actually thrived in developing my policies. I was probably, and listeners are going to cringe the most fun part of setting up my practice, but yeah.

[00:20:20] Jordan: No, I love that. I love that. Um, I'm also neurodivergent, you know, but like, yeah, it's like, I think I would have gotten a real kick out of it. I'd spent a lot of time thinking about it. I was just so time poor that I actually had to outsource it.

[00:20:35] Bronwyn: Oh no, that's fair. So fair. Absolutely.

[00:20:38] Jordan: So annoyed though, because I was like, I'm gonna, I think I'm still gonna go and nitpick over it. But yeah.

[00:20:43] Bronwyn: Do nitpick. And as you go in to private practice, you'll find things that work for you as well. So I'm, I still tweak my policies.

[00:20:50] Jordan: Hmm. Yeah.

But I definitely think that, yeah, salary, um, is kind of a nice, um, I think that's a really nice way to get into private practice, especially if you're not like, um, if you're coming from, like, government or, or community health, I guess, you want to kind of move into salary because the private practice itself is a whole different ballgame, I feel like you're holding so much, like, risk sometimes, and like, it's on you, you can't, like, defer to, like, management later, and that's kind of also part of being a contractor is, it's more on you. Not as much because you're still part of a practice, but yeah, you're holding that space more.

[00:21:30] Bronwyn: I think that's a really good point to bring up is that with contracting you are your own business. Whereas if you're an employee and somebody makes a complaint to the practice, they can talk to the practice manager. And I'm not sure if the practice manager would still step in for a contractor. Do you reckon they would?

[00:21:48] Jordan: They do. So think about it as this is that your client is actually the practice.

[00:21:55] Bronwyn: Gotcha, I understand.

[00:21:57] Jordan: So, yeah, the practice is the one who's going to complain to you. So if you get, like, a bunch of, like, clients complaining about you, the practice might be like, you know what? This contract isn't working out for us.

[00:22:07] Bronwyn: I see.

[00:22:08] Jordan: I mean, you still have clients that you kind of want to manage that as well, because of duty of care and all of that.

But, yeah, I've had some clients kind of, be unhappy with a service, um, Which is always, you know, let's not get into that. But, and had practices kind of step in and say, Hey, you know, this is why this happened and dealt with it that way. I handled it as professionally as I can, but

[00:22:32] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:22:33] Jordan: they're, they're, they're the ones who are, their reputation's on the line.

[00:22:38] Bronwyn: Exactly. I was going to say like, practices carry a risk in contracting with you if you affect their reputation providing substandard services, if that happens. And likewise, you as a contractor carry risk because you're not fully part, you're an independent business from the private practice. So let's say that you have clients who are at risk of harm to themselves or other people or from other people, then you carry more of that risk as an independent contractor.

[00:23:14] Jordan: Definitely. Yeah. And, um, yeah, I mean, the nice thing about being a contractor is you still kind of have... I guess it depends on the culture of the practice you go into, but you could still kind of knock on somebody's door and say, hey, hello, if you're at a group private practice, which is nice because you won't in solo private practice unless you're kind of sharing an office with people. But yeah, like ultimately it's on you. You're responsible, which is the thing to bear in mind. Like, so if you want to be held in, in private practice, salary is also a good way to go.

[00:23:45] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely. And like, you know, having been in private practice now myself for about three years now, I have a very thorough risk assessment form that I complete for every client and it is super thorough I have to say because I'm aware of the risk that I carry and I make sure that I have a risk assessment and a risk assessment plan for any factors that might be historic or current because I'm fully aware that yeah, I am carrying that risk.

[00:24:17] Jordan: Yeah. This kind of brings me to another thing that I, I note. Moving in as a contractor, you kind of don't, you don't have to take on clients if you don't want to.

like, so if you are in a salaried position, you might be compelled to, to take on whatever they throw at you because you're, I mean, hopefully they, they're accommodating what you know, but as a contractor, if they start, if, um, so part of the practice's role is to give you clients. If the practice gives you clients that aren't really a good fit for you or don't kind of suit, your kind of specialty, I suppose, you're within your rights to say, actually, you know, I'm not going to take this client on and they need to go to somebody else. That's, um, that's part of what you're going to do as a contractor saying, you know, this person's not a good fit for me. Let's refer on.

[00:25:08] Bronwyn: Yes. That's so good. So I think I just want to summarize the differences between employee and contractor.

[00:25:16] Jordan: Yeah, go for it.

[00:25:17] Bronwyn: And to do this, I'm just going to read out these key things from the ATO. And so listeners, I'll link to this in the show notes, but the ATO have six aspects that differ between employee and contractor. And I'm just going to read them out and then I might ask Jordan a few questions about them.

But the first is control. So for an employee, the business has the legal right to control how, where, and when the worker does their work. For a contractor, The worker can choose how, where and when their work is done, subject to reasonable direction by the employee, E subject to reasonable direction by the employer.

[00:25:56] Jordan: So, for example, if you want to work from home, you can make that, that distinction. If you want to work from the office, you can say that you can work, um, in the morning and then you can go home. You can say, I'm going to take on 2 clients per day and you're within your rights. They can't tell you to take on 6 clients. You, you choose how many clients you want to see in a day.

[00:26:17] Bronwyn: Amazing. Thank you. The next aspect is integration. So for an employee, the worker serves in the employer's business. They are contractually required to perform work as a representative of your business. For a contractor, the contractor provides services to the practice's business. The contractor performs work to further their own business and they may choose to present themselves as part of the business, but they don't have to.

[00:26:50] Jordan: Yeah, so you're kind of like a psychologist for hire and you can be a contractor for many different practices and you're usually kind of under your own name.

[00:27:01] Bronwyn: Yeah, so

[00:27:01] Jordan: I'm Jordan Turner.

[00:27:02] Bronwyn: just on that, like, do you have to, if you're a contractor, do you have to say use like the practice's like letterhead or put the practice's name on your business cards?

[00:27:13] Jordan: Um, well, some practices will offer business cards as part of their their contract. I don't think you have to. I'm not sure. I think it might be you negotiate it. I've never, I've had them kind of handle the admin and say you could use these forms that we have set up for you, but if you wanted to use different forms, I don't think anyone tells you no.

Because it's, you're still, you're still, you know, your own employee, so they can't really tell you how to do your job.

[00:27:42] Bronwyn: Okay, next thing is mode of remuneration, so payment. So for an employee, they're paid either for the time worked A price per item or activity or a commission. So this is what the ATO says. And then for a contractor, the contractor is contracted to achieve a specific result and is paid when they have completed that result, often for a fixed fee.

[00:28:08] Jordan: Usually I've negotiated with the, the practice kind of how often I'm billing them. So every week for one of the practices I've worked at, I send them an invoice for all the clients I've seen. And I'll say, I've worked with eight clients at this rate. You're taking this part of this and I'm asking you to pay me this part plus GST. Always plus GST because you're providing a service.

[00:28:34] Bronwyn: thank you. Thanks for mentioning that.

[00:28:36] Jordan: yeah, because I didn't know that that's the start. So I was, I was taking, I, you have to pay GST at some point. So I was, it's a very expensive lesson for me.

[00:28:46] Bronwyn: Oh no. How much did you have to pay back?

[00:28:49] Jordan: Oh, it was, thankfully I was able to kind of sort it out. But like, but if I hadn't, I would be like making a loss because of the amount of like tax you have to pay on that. Yeah.

[00:29:00] Bronwyn: Great know. Would highly recommend that if you're going to become a contractor, speak to an accountant, right?

[00:29:06] Jordan: Yes. I, um, can't. Thank my accountant enough.

[00:29:10] Bronwyn: Woohoo!

[00:29:11] Jordan: Yeah,

[00:29:12] Bronwyn: Okay, next thing is ability to subcontract or delegate. For an employee, they must perform the work themselves. They cannot pay someone else to do the work for them. For a contractor. They actually are free to delegate to others who the worker will pay to complete the work on their behalf. I feel like that would be different in psychology. You just can't sub out somebody else for you, like, in therapy.

[00:29:38] Jordan: I suppose like in theory you could if you were like a smaller practice subcontractor or contracting to a bigger practice and you just have like three psychologists working under that but that would be kind of a weird one. Usually you're a solo practitioner who's... I guess if you wanted to outsource your report writing but like

[00:29:58] Bronwyn: good point.

[00:29:59] Jordan: I don't know like probably not. I haven't seen it happen and I haven't heard of it.

[00:30:04] Bronwyn: Yeah. No, but that's, that's a really good point to consider.

Okay, the next one is provision of tools and equipment. So for an employee, the practice needs to provide all or most of your equipment, tools and other assets required to complete the work and or the worker provides all or most of the tools but the business provides them with an allowance or reimburses them for expenses incurred.

For the contractor, they provide all or most of the equipment tools and other things required to complete the work and the employer doesn't give them an allowance for the expenses incurred.

[00:30:41] Jordan: So that's a really important one for people who are doing assessments. If you are doing assessments as a contractor, you're going to have to pay for the assessment materials. So you'll have to pay Pearson or whoever to get those forms in. If you are doing like IQ assessments, Um, and you use iPads, you need to provide the iPads. So I was doing assessment at my practice and I moved from employee to contractor and in that I needed to buy two brand new iPads so I can continue to do my assessments. It's a very expensive upfront cost.

[00:31:20] Bronwyn: Yes, totally. And I guess like thinking about that before you go into contracting like could be helpful, right?

[00:31:27] Jordan: Yeah, like you have to provide all the materials Because you've worked for yourself, so you've got to claim all that on tax as well So make sure that you keep a note of what you're buying for work.

[00:31:38] Bronwyn: Oh, yep, yep. No, really good point. Okay, the last one from the ATO is risk. So for an employee, um, they bear little or no risk. The business bears the commercial risk for any cost arising out of injury or defect in their work. But for a contractor, the contractor bears the commercial risks for any costs arising out of injury or defect in their work.

So my interpretation of that is that all psychologists need to have insurance. But if a client complains, then that's your fault as the contractor. It's not, the business might suffer reputationally, but like, if it came down to a complaint, it would be on you as the contractor.

Is that your interpretation or understanding?

[00:32:25] Jordan: I think so I think that any kind of like malpractice Would come on you, I guess, like, it's not I've had to, to, I haven't experienced that in myself. I'm not really sure. Um, that's my impression. Like, if, if you were to, if somebody were to sue you for like malpractice, I think that, but I think that's the case anyway. Everyone has insurance as part of being a psychologist

[00:32:50] Bronwyn: Yeah, we have to. So yeah, just make sure that you are adequately insured. And if you're unsure, then you can talk to an insurance broker or get advice from senior psychologists or speak to Fair Work or the ATO.

[00:33:08] Jordan: Definitely. Yeah.

[00:33:09] Bronwyn: Yep. Cool. Okay. So, I think that helps to clarify to listeners and summarize what we're talking about with the difference between employee and contractor.

What I'd be keen to move on to is some of the things that you got caught out on and the questions that you reckon are really good to ask employers.

[00:33:29] Jordan: I, um, did a ton of research before I was a contractor, um, because I was really concerned about moving to a variable income. I think the important thing to be aware of is how you have no kind of safety net. If you can't work, then you're not getting paid. So you want to make sure that you're saving money for those times where you're not getting paid. So, for example, over the holiday season, if you're not seeing any clients because everyone's on holidays, you're not getting paid. You want to make sure that you have, um, money saved to pay for your salary or wages or to, you know, pay the bills. So you can get through. So I think that's a big one that a lot of people kind of aren't aware of.

Like, it requires a lot of like, organizing in that way. The big one for me was that I got caught out on GST. So as healthcare professionals, we don't have to pay GST if we're providing a healthcare service, but if you're a contractor, you're providing a service... like a professional service to a practice.

And that might be different in in individual circumstances, but on the whole, as a contractor, if you are invoicing a practice for for like services, then you have to pay GST. But you get it reimbursed unless you make over 75, 000. But it's, the other thing is, it's kind of easy to, to get to that point as a contractor.

The other thing is, you're the one who sets your hours, so don't burn yourself out by saying, I can do six clients today because I want to get that money. You have to be so aware of your limits as well. Don't agree to do more than you can do just so you get paid more because you want to be sustainable in your practice. And don't, and also don't martyr yourself. I think we always talk about it, um, as psychologists.

Oh yeah, I'll just do this little extra thing. It won't be so bad. Oh, I can take on a little bit more. And that is a quick recipe for burnout. And then you definitely don't want to be burnt out if you're working for yourself because you're not getting paid.

[00:35:36] Bronwyn: I wholeheartedly agree. It's like, I would much rather be sustainable and see four clients a day and be able to work and feel good in myself and have my health than burn out on six clients a day and then have to take six months off. It's like, it's, it's worse to burn out from a health perspective and a financial perspective.

[00:35:57] Jordan: Yeah, it's not fun for anyone.

[00:35:58] Bronwyn: Is there anything else that you got caught out on Jordan that you didn't know, which you were like, Oh, I wish I had known that.

[00:36:06] Jordan: I wouldn't say caught out per se, but if you aren't getting paid super, make sure you put aside money for super. And that's just, something that's been drilled into me by a lot of other healthcare professionals who have noticed like women, especially kind of getting into retirement age and not putting money aside and then, being destitute.

So you should, if you're working for yourself, super is a must if it's not being by the practice.

[00:36:30] Bronwyn: 100%. I think the statistics show that the fastest growing cohort of homeless people in Australia is women in their 60s and 70s and that is attributed to not having enough super. So it's extremely important for everyone, but particularly women to set aside an adequate amount of super.

[00:36:56] Jordan: Yeah, because the other thing is, is you're not getting paid super when you're on mat leave either, or if you're taking time off for the kids. It's, it's kind of, really gross and we could get into a whole other thing about that.

[00:37:08] Bronwyn: Do you have any questions that you would recommend that listeners ask employers?

[00:37:15] Jordan: Yeah, totally. Um, I had, I was a bit of a nerd. I had a long list of questions for my uh, practice that I'm working at now, um. I guess the one that everyone always asks is what's the ratio. So, like I said, it doesn't matter so much the ratio if you're getting paid, more, it's more of an issue if you're getting paid less, such as, like, in a low, cost of living kind of area.

When you are asking about that, you want to know what the practice is actually covering. Like, what does admin do? If you're the one kind of booking your appointments and taking payment and stuff like that, then I would be arguing for like, a higher ratio of like, 70 30. Because part of that is paying the kind of the fees for like, your admin. Um, but if you're on kind of a lower ratio of like, 60 40, you, you want like, a bit more support from the practice. So, admin booking appointments, taking payment, that sort of thing, and like rooms and stuff like that.

Also, see if supervision is included. Um, some people will give you a discount on supervision. Some will include it as part of, um, working in a private practice as a contractor. It's kind of nice to have supervision if it's available because, you know, everyone has to pay for it otherwise.

This is kind of a question you want to ask. To catch, this is a bit cheeky, but to catch people out, like expectations around clients and how many you see in a day. Just being clear with the practice that you are the one who sets your hours and how many clients you'll see and what kind of clients you're going to see. So, if they have expectations about you seeing 6 clients in a day, that's, that's not really their place. You're the only one who can set how many clients you're going to see.

 I think it's important to ask about the culture of the workplace as well. So if you're becoming a contractor, because you like the idea of being in a group practice, but you still kind of want to be your own boss, ask about the culture of the, the workplace and see if there's any kind of things that are red flags for you, such as like, sticky people in the office who are not that great to work with and, you know, room fighting, I dunno, that sort of thing. But yeah, the culture is really important as well.

And, and don't be afraid to negotiate either, because. I think the other thing is to change your mindset away from being an employee and see yourself as somebody who's kind of going into business with somebody. Like you're making an agreement. You're not their employee. They can take it or leave it. You have, as a psych right now in this climate, you have more than enough opportunities that if you don't like the practice that is potentially offering a contracting job, you could just go next door and offer your services to somebody else and they'd be happy to take you because we're just that in that much need of psychs.

[00:40:07] Bronwyn: Let's just say like, you're just generally unhappy with something that the practice is doing and you're like, Hmm, like, I don't like this. I feel uneasy about this. Like, what are your tips for communicating?

[00:40:18] Jordan: Oh, absolutely. Um, talk to the practice owner. Make sure that, uh, trying to be diplomatic. Look, if you're, I, you don't want to burn the bridge, but you also kind of want to say, look, these are the expectations I had. Uh, I'm not sure if there's like a barrier here or something has gone awry. Just navigating it the way you would with, with a client, like trying to meet each other where you're at. And if, like, like I said, if, if it's not a good fit, then you can walk. It's okay. Like, there's no obligation.

It's really important though that that, um, you do stand your ground because you're more accountable. So, like, if they're giving you, like, clients that are like, way kind of out of your depth or something, like, if you're, if you're happy working with anxiety, depression, and you getting people with like, schizophrenia that you're not really equipped to or trained to deal with, you make that clear to them because it reflects badly on them as well. If if you're kind of getting clients that are not a good fit for you, um, and the clients come out unhappy and not. You know, supported.

[00:41:23] Bronwyn: Yep, 100%. And I mean, just to anecdotally as well, the practice owners who I've spoken to, they've always said that they're really happy to have conversations with their contractors about how the practice runs and anything that they're unhappy with. So it sounds like Jordan, like if you've needed to communicate with the practice owner in your experience, it's been pretty easy and you just approach it reasonably and like you would with a client.

[00:41:52] Jordan: I think you'd be a bit of a red flag if you didn't feel like you could approach the, the practice owner and kind of come, come to like an agreement about something. Most the, the practice owners that I've worked with have never kind of not been receptive. And if they, if they disagreed with something, then we kind of just talk about it and negotiate and kind of come to an agreement about what, what is acceptable for both of us.

Because you're, You're in a business arrangement. You're not, like, you're not their employee, so you don't have to kind of bend over and do what they tell you.

[00:42:29] Bronwyn: Yep. Okay. Jordan, I feel like we're coming naturally to the end of our conversation and I'm wondering if you have any final lessons or takeaways that you want to leave listeners with.

[00:42:43] Jordan: I think it's kind of similar to what I've just been saying, is that to change your mindset away from, you're not an employee. So you are your own business as a contractor. So you get to set the terms. Nobody tells you how much you bill. I mean, they might make suggestions and it might be like practical to bill similarly, but you get to set your hours. You get to set how much you're charging. You get to set who you're seeing when you're seeing them. Because you're the business owner as a contractor, they're just providing a room, clients, admin, and kind of like policies and procedures.

It's kind of like, you just go there, you work, and then you leave. And that's kind of the difference between, a contractor versus someone who's working in solo private practice as well.

[00:43:33] Bronwyn: Totally. And I think my recommendation to listeners would be, be informed. So, if you're going to take a contracting position, be as informed as you can as to what a contractor is versus an employee .

And I'm going to link in the show notes to Fair Work and the Australian Taxation Office and a few other articles about this. Because something that I think if a few people have been grumbling about is whether there is sham contracting in psychology. So that is Representing it as a contracting relationship, but really it's an employee employer relationship. So do be aware of your rights.

And I think what Jordan was saying about the finances is really important. So if you're at all unsure, go see an accountant who has experience working with psychology professionals and make sure you ask them questions, particularly around GST, like Jordan said. So you don't get caught out there and just know what your obligations are because yeah, nobody, that would just be a really shitty situation if you had to pay back a lot of GST.

[00:44:47] Jordan: That's right. Um, I saw an accountant, um, who specialized in psychologists and it was, it's just so helpful to have somebody to talk it through and like how the finances work and stuff like that. Cause you, depending on how much you make, you also have to do, you have more tax obligations as well. Like, I can't remember what it's called, the BAS that you

[00:45:10] Bronwyn: Yes, yeah, I do a BAS yeah.

[00:45:12] Jordan: Yeah. So you have to do a BAS if you earn over 75K, I think. Um, and that's also kind of important and also just being aware, um, that you're supplying all your materials. So, if you're in a material heavy kind of role, like you're doing assessment. Be aware that you're paying for that BASC or the Connors or brief or whatever else you're doing, or, and the, the book for like, autism assessment or whatever as well.

[00:45:41] Bronwyn: Yeah, and that can be a substantial cost. I, like you, Jordan, I, I outlayed for iPads when, um, I was doing a bit of an assessment. And yeah, it is a substantial cost as well as the licensing and Pearson registration and just time as well. So budgeting is so important. I guess like, yeah, don't, don't go in being like, oh, it's fairies and rainbows here. It's, yeah, there's stuff to plan.

[00:46:06] Jordan: Yeah, and that's, and that kind of goes, that ties back into what we were saying before, which was that, um, like. It is kind of nice if you're going, if you're a very early career psychologist, who's just like straight out of uni or straight out of your, your registration, you want to, if I highly recommend doing salaried private practice before going into contracting, just so that you can get your head around being a psychologist before you have to worry about the business side of things.

[00:46:36] Bronwyn: Totally. Yeah. And I mean, personally, like, If I ever needed to go out of solo private practice, I reckon I would actually go into an employee relationship just because then, they carry all the risk and then you get the support. But then also that neurodivergent part of me would be like, I don't like being told when to work and how to work. So, so it immediately like pull away, but like, but I think I would.

[00:47:02] Jordan: I agree. I guess in that space, you'd want to be like finding a supportive workplace. I think for I'm definitely like, I know that for me, like, after the, in the afternoon, like, my quality is like, not that great. It's better. It's not terrible. But I know, like, my, my prime work hours are like in the morning. So it's nice as a contractor. I can be like, you know, I'm just going to work mornings and then I'll do my admin in the afternoon.

[00:47:29] Bronwyn: Totally. Well, Jordan, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing your experience. It has been really valuable. I think it's been really good to go over some of the contractor versus employee differences, as well as hear about your own experiences and your journey from going from salaried position to contracting and now looking at solo private practice. Uh, it's really good. And thank you for giving us all your tips and questions to ask employers as well. I think it's really valuable. And just that mindset shift.

[00:48:02] Jordan: Yeah, no worries. Um, can I say where to find me?

[00:48:07] Bronwyn: Yes, please do. Where can they find you if they want to know more?

[00:48:10] Jordan: Uh, if you are, like what I had to say, I'm jordanturnerpsych.com, and that's kind of my information.

[00:48:19] Bronwyn: Excellent. I'll link to that in the show notes as well.

And listeners, thank you so much for tuning in. This episode, again, was brought to you by the Australian Association of Psychologists. And if you would love to leave us a review, I would love you. That would be fantastic. So if you have access to Apple Podcasts, leave us a five star rating and review. If you have access to Spotify, you can leave us a rating there as well. It really does help new listeners find the podcast.

And that's a wrap. Thank you so much for listening. Have a good one and catch you next time.