Episode 19- How to Sell with Non-Verbal Cues Part II

@15:22 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

So welcome to Electrpreneur Secrets, the electric podcast. I'm your host, Clay Neumeier with my esteemed cohost, Joseph Lucani, the sales bot, Lucani, throw that in there.

We're back today live in the group, the Electrpreneurs group, and we're here on the podcast with you to do part two of nonverbal cues.

We had a lot of good feedback on part one, which launched on Friday, I believe last week we put it out.

But we did this. No, this one never actually went live in the group. Friday we streamed it. I think we streamed it.

Restreamed it. Yeah, I just got off a plane, you guys. I'll give you that warning right now. But yeah, OK, so this is part two, and these nonverbal cues are just so important.

I wanted to give a quick shout out to Brian in the group who says, you know what? He's had a productive start to the week.

Game planning, organic lead generation, thanks to the two of us. Thank you for that. And that's a huge compliment.

And my post today was on organic lead gen and how important it is to get that machine nice and well oiled so it can run with you, without you, and get some autonomy in that business.

Systemize this stuff so that when you put coins in that marketing machine, you're making the most of everyone. Joseph, OK, how are we doing today?

@16:45 - Joseph Lucanie (Fathom)

I'm feeling great. I was going to say there's a lot of really cool stuff that I want to talk about because I feel like it actually ties into what I posted about this morning.

No, you have to learn. I realized that. I've gone down a bunch of really weird paths, whether they're good or bad.

But instead of feeling bad about them, I'm instead going to focus on using all those negative experiences to keep other people from making the same bad choices.

So I'm able to now teach nonverbal cues that I had to learn just to keep alive. So it's great.

@17:19 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

And these are the kinds of things that they take a lot of time, a lot of practice, right? Especially if you're on your own guys and maybe you've heard Joseph's story, maybe you know us a bit by now, or maybe this is your first time.

But a lot of the stuff we're talking about is over a decade of experience, both Joseph's decade and then mine as well with different backgrounds.

So the stuff we're bringing to you is not something you could really just read and learn that quickly.

@17:46 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

So you get that accelerated approach anytime you're able to take the wisdom or experience of someone else and learn from that.

So what do we need to know about these nonverbal cues and how can that set us apart?

@17:57 - Joseph Lucanie (Fathom)

All right. The thing about part one. was that's the things you're trying to do before the sale is made, right?

Part two is how can we prevent buyer's remorse? Because that was one of the biggest blows to the knees I ever got.

Where you would do everything right, so you thought. You followed the process, you lined yourself up, you were successful, they gave you the deposit, and then you're driving back to the shop, and then suddenly you get the call of, oh, sorry, there's a family emergency.

Oh, we need to hold off on this. Oh, can you send us a breakdown? And from experience, does that ever feel fun?

@18:36 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

No, not at all. And can I throw one nugget in there? Sure. I know the example you're using is very immediate, but buyer's remorse statistically happens within 72 hours of the purchase.

So there's actually a bit of a journey in here.

@18:51 - Joseph Lucanie (Fathom)

Continue. Correct, yeah. No, I mean, it could be one of those things where you just get back to the office.

It could be something where three days later, they're like, hey, I've been thinking about this. a breakdown on the job, I just want to make sure that it's the way I want it to be.

Or for some people might be like, oh, just for my own records, do you mind sending me a breakdown?

@19:07 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

Yeah. Yeah.

@19:08 - Joseph Lucanie (Fathom)

So it sounds that same part. So this primarily is something that you're going to do when you're selling to two different people.

So either, you know, a spouse, two spouses or two partners, it doesn't matter as long as there's two people that are both emotionally engaged in the situation.

Now, remember when we talked and we were sitting at the kitchen table that we want to be side by side with someone, what was the main reason for that?

@19:35 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

We wanted to know that really we're on the same side of the line in partnership, looking towards a solution.

@19:40 - Joseph Lucanie (Fathom)

A hundred percent, a hundred percent. The thing is, is that most of us, once we feel like we're already engaged with both, we will tend on shifting our focus to one or the other, whoever we feel is the primary person that's running this call.

Whether that means like, let's say, you know, it could be that you're Maybe one of the partners says, you know what?

I'm the one who wants to get this done. So you start to shift and you start talking to one person and you've got to be aware of what's going on with the other.

Because if you ever had a situation where you're talking to someone, they're both engaged and then just one person gets up and walks away or they're like, you know what, I'm paying attention.

I'm just going to go, I got to check something quick. How many people walk through that yellow light? What do you think is being communicated from that?

@20:30 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

You're not filling me in man.

@20:32 - Joseph Lucanie (Fathom)

No worries. So the thing is, is that if you get into a situation where someone gets up and walks away, they're trying to tell you one of two things.

It either means A, they don't want to make a purchase whether it's because they're confused or they're overwhelmed. And if they can be distant enough, they then can use the excuse of, well, my husband wasn't available to listen to this.

My wife wasn't available. My partner wasn't. and available, we need to discuss this later together.

@21:03 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

It becomes a wedge.

@21:05 - Joseph Lucanie (Fathom)

It does. So it's a first intentional move. The second thing that it's communicating is if they were truly interested in what we had to say, would doing the dishes be very interesting?

Would doing the laundry take precedence?

@21:19 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

No. No. Laser focused on us.

@21:23 - Joseph Lucanie (Fathom)

Exactly. So the thing is, is that when you have someone that's willing to walk away, that's a real problem we have to address.

And it has to be answered almost immediately. So it depends on how they introduce it. The first is if someone comes to you and says, oh, I'm just going to get up for a second.

I'm listening, but I'm just going to go be over here. They're really going to be listening if they're on the other side of the room?

No, not at all. So you'd say, well, I think that's great. And I can imagine that, you know, whatever you're doing is definitely going to take priority.

Like whatever it is that they're doing. I can understand why you'd want to get that done. But my greatest.

or what I don't want to happen is if I go through this and I describe it and you don't have your full attention, you may have questions afterwards.

And the last thing I want you to do is have to feel like you had to take notes or that you weren't able to figure it out while I was here together.

So why don't we figure this out together? Let's sit back down, let's go through it and I can review anything you wanna know.

Did you have any specific questions before we moved on?

@22:23 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

I like that.

@22:24 - Joseph Lucanie (Fathom)

You're re-engaging them to say like, I understand, I know what you're trying to do. Like it's all right. I know you're trying to get the dishes done and I can see that that would be important.

But, and then you can interject why you don't want them to walk away. You don't wanna say something like, I don't want you to go because I don't wanna have to repeat myself.

It's, I don't want you to go because I'm afraid that if you don't have your full attention to this, there could be things that are missed because I granted, I designed six very different options.

It wouldn't be fair for you to have to remember all these things.

@22:58 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

Yeah.

@23:00 - Joseph Lucanie (Fathom)

So you can. point it back out. When someone does them, it's very hard for someone to walk away a second time.

You imagine how awkward that would be?

@23:10 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

Yeah, you got to be some sort of dick, right?

@23:12 - Joseph Lucanie (Fathom)

Yeah. Where they're just like, nah, I'm going to get them to walk away. And though that might happen, that's actually a separate thing we could talk about.

The second thing about virus remorse and nonverbal cues is have you ever noticed that in different spousal relationships, someone usually takes primary and someone usually takes secondary?

@23:34 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

I usually claim that in mine, but there's an argument in house over here.

@23:39 - Joseph Lucanie (Fathom)

I know.

@23:39 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

I get it.

@23:40 - Joseph Lucanie (Fathom)

I was going to say, the thing is it doesn't matter who's primary and who's secondary because I consider both people equal members of the family.

So the thing that we have to remember though, is if they're not, if one person isn't being served emotionally, they will then give in to the other person.

The problem is, is that if that If you have one person who's super sold and you have one that's not really engaged, once the big ticket numbers come out, they may say, listen, if you want to get it done, then that's what we're going to do.

But do you think they're going to be just as cool with the price when you walk out of the room?

@24:17 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

No. You're tying this back into remorse now?

@24:20 - Joseph Lucanie (Fathom)

Exactly. Because that's the thing. A lot of times when it's happening, these non-verbals always come back to the buyer's remorse.

So when you have someone who says, you go to give them a price and you're working through it with them, and they say something like, well, I guess that's the one we're going to have to do.

You guess? If you were really certain, would it be a guess?

@24:41 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

No.

@24:42 - Joseph Lucanie (Fathom)

It wouldn't be. So someone, when they're trying to shift over to let someone else do something, they'll often change where they're looking and where they're facing.

So let's say you're on the same line. I'm looking at the solution and two people are looking at the solutions with me.

You'll see the phone come in. Or you'll see someone looking up. Or you'll see them turning side to side.

When you ask them a question, you can actually tell whether they're focused or not by asking them things like, so what are your thoughts on that?

Do you feel like that's necessary? You know, do you have anything to add to this? Do you feel like this is even important?

You can bring it back in, but the way you can tell whether it's nonverbal or not is where their eyes are placed when they're actually responding to you.

Because if I've noticed when someone is looking down, like I could be looking right at the screen right now, but if you asked me a question, I wasn't fully engaged.

I'm going to look top left because that means that I'm looking usually for something internal and I'm trying to find the answer within myself.

If someone's looking for the answer in themselves, were they actually paying attention?

@25:49 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

Yeah. Yep, definitely. We talked a bit about this actually in RSS the other day. Top is actually associated with a visual.

referential system, lead reference system. Whereas side to side could be actually auditory and downward tends to be kinetic. So depending on the style of learning that they prefer, style of communicating or remembering a lead referential system, they'll look different ways but that doesn't necessarily mean distracted.

So I love that you tied that in. In the moment, in response to great thing when you cause that.

@26:26 - Joseph Lucanie (Fathom)

Mm-hmm.

@26:27 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

It's also something that you can recognize and speak to. If you saw someone look up and then you know their lead reference system is visual, then you could actually, this is expert level now, say something like, oh, well, this is where I liked when I saw this or exactly.

I liked the way this looks. Those being of course, visually cued statements.

@26:50 - Joseph Lucanie (Fathom)

You're right. That's actually it. Now, in addition, now we're gonna shift a little bit away from buyer's remorse and then go into something that a lot of contractors hate and that.

comes down to where are you doing your presentation? So many people will say, I'm gonna do it in the van.

Why, why are we doing the van? Usually it's because they say, I don't want the customer looking over my shoulder while I'm writing everything.

But that itself is actually the nonverbal cue that we're gonna talk about. Perfect. So let's say that you are getting ready to design your solutions and you're at the kitchen table, right?

And you have all your notes spread out in your iPad and you're working, you're chipping away and the customer comes behind you and they look over.

What is it do you think they're looking for?

@27:37 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

The numbers.

@27:40 - Joseph Lucanie (Fathom)

That's what they're looking for. Primarily what that's saying is there's no possible way that they could be reading in a glance what the overall solution is gonna be.

It's not possible. Like if you have a whole list of six options and you're just working them out and you've got all your numbers in front of you, what could they really be looking for?

What that's telling. is that they believe that the answer lies in the price. And when they think the answer lies in the price, that's all they're gonna be focused on at the end.

So instead of you actually leaning in and trying to cover up your numbers, which a lot of people do, like give you another verbal visual again, I'm writing my solutions.

I have my iPad in front of me and I see the customer come behind me. I may actually shift in.

And what does that tell the customer? If they see me trying to cover up my numbers.

@28:33 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

You don't want them to see the numbers.

@28:35 - Joseph Lucanie (Fathom)

And is that dangerous in the customer's mind when all they wanna do is look at the numbers?

@28:39 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

You might as well be in the van hiding stuff.

@28:41 - Joseph Lucanie (Fathom)

Might as well be in the van. That's why instead when you see them looking behind you, you can actually interject and be like, hey, I'm just letting you know I've got about 15 minutes while I'm working on this.

Did you have any questions before I get started? Just ask, just be like, is there anything you want to know before we keep going with it?

Because if you... you don't address it and you do it subconsciously where you try to lean forward, they will pick up on that.

And when they do, you are doing the exact same thing as you just being in the van. It probably even worse because in the van, they assume that you're hiding something.

But if you're leaning forward or you're like trying to make it seem like you don't want to be bothered, they will most certainly think that you're hiding something.

Make sense?

@29:25 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

Does man. It does. So what's the right thing to do.

@29:28 - Joseph Lucanie (Fathom)

So the right thing to do when you have that situation is I always liked to have a single place of where you're putting it, positioning yourself.

So it's hard to do it on the camera, but let's say that everything's in front of you. I always had one dominant left arm.

I would always lean forward and I would write with my right arm. That way I could always keep my eyes to what is going on in my peripheral.

So in other words, I would position myself closer to this way. So I knew that if the customer is going to try to see.

my numbers, they would have to come this way, which meant that I could always turn towards them and address them once again as people, rather than leaning forward and trying to keep them off my numbers.

So when they're coming to me, instead now I'm turning to them and saying, ah, this is the emotion. This is where the solution is, rather than this is where the solution is.

So it's a simple measure of placing yourself to say, I know where they're going to come if they were going to look and I'm prepared for it.

@30:31 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

Yep. So you're preparing for an engagement instead of preparing for an awkward huddle over your plate like it's a prison meal.

@30:39 - Joseph Lucanie (Fathom)

Oh my God.

@30:40 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

That's a good reference. No, you're right. It just came to me. It just came to me.

@30:44 - Joseph Lucanie (Fathom)

Yeah, right. It's all that stuff. So at the end of the day, we're always trying to solve an emotional concern and the customers are not always going to tell us exactly what's on their mind.

So when we start to pick up on these little cues, we really. realize where they're at in the process.

So now let's do a quick little recap. So like going forward, if someone were to come by and they just get up and they said that I need to do, I'm listening but I'm just gonna go do something.

We're recognizing they're emotionally disengaging. That's what it is. They may say, I'm listening, I'm gonna pay attention but they're not.

And there's a reason for that. And if we don't find that reason we will not be successful on this call.

So in addition, when they come around we're always engaging and saying what is the emotional connection? Where is it at?

So everything I'm gonna always bring back to you always says how can you better bond with someone? And what can you do to recognize what they're really thinking?

@31:45 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

I love that. I love that you use the word reason, big capital R. I mean, there's so many powerful things but of all of this, it's so important to recognize the misconception even between objection and reason and how we tend to disconnect the two.

And we feel like. like an objection as a missile that we need to dodge and solve before it blows up somewhere, where it's just trying to find the reason behind it, trying to find the root cause of what's in the way here.

If this is the right thing truly, and you know it's the right thing, and I know it's the right thing, then what's the reason that we don't do it?

@32:22 - Joseph Lucanie (Fathom)

I agree. I would say another way of looking at that in a similar parallel is did you go door to door or did they call you?

They've obviously called you for something, but so many people feel awkward when they have someone else in their home.

I mean, I know I would. If I don't know you and you're a stranger, I'm gonna probably act a little bit differently than if I was a friend.

So knowing these little cues to pick up on allow you to better bond with someone, not just so you can sell them on something.

Sell isn't the right word. It's I'm simply assisting them in a way that they may not. realize that they need at this point.

And that's why these non-verbals are so important.

@33:05 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

Yep. Love it. Okay. Do we have any other ones for the show today or was that it?

@33:10 - Joseph Lucanie (Fathom)

I would say these are the top three that came to mind because once again, we're just running right off of it.

Yeah. But I would say. I definitely think we could probably come with a part three if we need to do.

@33:22 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

I mean, each of these really could be drilled down into and spend 15, 20 minutes on all of them.

@33:28 - Joseph Lucanie (Fathom)

And of course, giving you guys exercise, actionable items, a task to do from that and make the most of it.

@33:34 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

Repetition is the father of learning. Can't say it enough. Another one I've used over and over repetitively, pun intended, learn, do teach, learn, do teach.

If this is the first time you've heard this stuff, guys, now go do it. Go pay attention to it and then teach it to your helper, teach it to your partner, teach it to other people you work with.

And that will stick. It will cement within your being. So that's some of the best advice I can give, honestly.

What do we have? for an action item on this stuff?

@34:02 - Joseph Lucanie (Fathom)

So the minimum action item, I would say like the bare minimum is only doing one of three. The minimum action item is do not lean forward and do not turn off your iPad when the customer comes to you because the thing is, is that if they believe that the number is where everything is and you were looking to hide said number, that is going to be a big red flag in their opinion.

So if you were going to do nothing other than those three things, just do that and you'll still find you'll have a better relationship with people.

@34:35 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

I love that. And just quick, what would you say to someone that is in the closed position mistakenly and doesn't realize it until they're getting someone over the shoulder?

What's the quick pivot out of this then and out of that awkwardness that causes you to want to lean over and crowd the plate?

@34:51 - Joseph Lucanie (Fathom)

So just so I understand the question correctly, do you mean like you like knee jerk lean in and then you're saying, what do I do to like get out of that or how do you present.

yourself from ever leaning in.

@35:02 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

Like which week we talked about prevention because you said, Hey, I want to put myself in a position to welcome that engagement, but say someone's gone too far already.

And now they're, they're recalling the lesson and saying, Oh, darn, I'm about to do this thing. And I'm feeling that reaction of, Hey, I want to close this off so they can't see it.

Is there something you would pivot and say maybe.

@35:24 - Joseph Lucanie (Fathom)

That's actually a good question. I would say in that circumstance, if you could not avoid and you found yourself in that situation, the best thing to do is just to be open about it with the customer and say, you can just be like, Hey, sorry.

I didn't expect to see you here. I was really just dialed into my numbers. Forgive me for turning away from you and then go and say, Hey, would you like to sit down and join me?

@35:45 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

I'd love to have you included in this.

@35:48 - Joseph Lucanie (Fathom)

Love that. Allowing them to come back in and say like, you know, I'm sorry. I just need your reaction.

I wasn't expecting to see you here.

@35:54 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

Come join me. I'd be happy to have your opinion on what we're doing. Yeah. Yeah. And taking this back to the 30,000.

I mean, this stuff is simple, right? We're trying to stay on the same side of the line, remaining a partner in this with the homeowner and working towards a solution.

So anytime we crowd block, say, what are you doing? Any of that kind of stuff puts us back opposite sides of the problem.

Is that fair to say?

@36:21 - Joseph Lucanie (Fathom)

Yeah, it's no different than when the customer is standing behind you at the panel and the typical contractor says like, I'm just gonna keep quiet until the guy walks away.

It's like, yeah, that's a nonverbal cue. You know, what we're doing is the exact opposite. We're saying, I recognize that you want to be involved and don't know how to properly ask, but your body language is communicating that you do.

So I'm going to be setting up with as many opportunities to feel involved as I possibly can. And as a result of those actions, we will have a better relationship at the end.

And when I want to ask for the business, I'll be able to do so from the position of someone you'd like.

@37:00 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

Trust and respect. Love it, love it, love it, love it. Okay, all star action and we'll finish up.

@37:06 - Joseph Lucanie (Fathom)

All star action. The all star action is probably gonna be a little bit harder because I would say, I would want you to listen to part one and part two multiple times.

Because these cues are not easy to master and they're not easy to pick up on. But the first step you have to do is to be able to recognize that they exist.

So part one is to say, I need you to listen to episode one and two continuously. Keep mindful of those episodes.

Then part two or step two is recognize and start writing down the cues and saying, all right, when they look up, what does that say?

When they look side to side, what does that say? When they look down, when they come behind me, when they're at the panel, what is that saying?

From there, I'd say the next step is start to practice. I would literally have someone, whether it's your spouse.

or a friend or coworker or anyone that you work with and have them actually include that in the role play.

Where if you're sitting down at the table, just fake table, have someone come behind you, practice like, hey, sorry, I didn't see you there.

Please pull up a chair, I'd love to have you involved. And just make sure it comes off as natural as possible.

That is going to separate the all-stars from the typical person who wants to succeed in this. Role play, master, practice, repeat.

@38:29 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

I love that, I love that. And that word master comes up again, right? We are trying to master communication, master partnership.

And when you're able to take this stuff and use it for you, then you can ultimately and effectively lead that relationship to a successful outcome where there is no remorse.

Where you have an open communication in that relationship so that you can control the aftermath. And when I say that, again, it's their house, our clinic.

And it's... All ties back to that organic process, guys. Having that well-oiled machine. We just love this stuff, and we want you to have that so that it's scalable, saleable, something that you can walk away from.

No matter if you need to take a week, two, three, or a month, maybe it's two months in your future.

A business that you can step back from that represents all the autonomy and all the processes that you've worked, yes, I said processes, the Canadian way, the accent up here, eh?

Okay, guys, we're here five days a week to help you master sales, simplify pricing, and deliver premium level service.

I'm Clay Neumeier, this is my host, Joseph. Thank you for joining us again. Can't wait to see you guys again tomorrow.

@39:40 - Joseph Lucanie (Fathom)

So much, great seeing you guys, take care.

@39:42 - Clay Neumeyer (serviceloopelectrical.com)

Bye bye.