Creating a 'Visual Vocabulary' with Ashton Rodenhiser

what you're creating in the world and what they perceive in their own mind when it comes to cost is just not a match, and that's okay. It has nothing to do with whether or not what you created was quote unquote worth it to them or yourself.

Well, ashton, thanks for joining me today. You are a live illustrator and I'm really excited to hear about all of that and hear your journey of doing it as well as being a mom. So thank you for joining me today. Yeah, thank you so much for having me happy to be here. So, for anybody that doesn't know, you just go ahead and introduce yourself.

Yeah, so I am a mom of three, five, seven, 10 year old, so all littles and I actually started my business, or I started kind of the journey of my business as a creative entrepreneur, when my daughter was six. My first daughter was six months old. So I've always been a mom, also building a business. Know what the luxury of starting something before kids, when you had all this time and then I've all this, all I've ever really known. So sometimes when people say to me you know like oh my gosh, how do you do that with all the kids, I'm like I don't know, I've over with this thing, like I don't know any different.

So you couldn't imagine any other way, could you?

know, of course not. And when I was like in high school, like the idea of being like as a creative career was just not an option, because there's such a rhetoric of oh, you can't make money as an artist, blah, blah, blah, blah, like, like and that's not new to anybody right here. But I just knew I wanted to be a mom. So when everyone was saying, oh, you know, what do you want to be? And I'm like I just want to be a mom, and they're like, what, like, that's what you want to do and. I'm like, yeah, that's just sort of like. I remember thinking at 19 years old that if I would have had a baby then I would have been totally jazzed, Like it would have been a great time. So so I decided to pursue early childhood education because I didn't know what else I wanted to do. So I was like, well, I've always worked with kids, I want to have kids, so I will go and work with other people's kids and do that for a while until I have my own. And you know, it's a pretty transferable skill, even though you're kind of your own worst enemy because you like know better. I know I should be yelling at you, but I am, and yeah. So then I started working at a family center, a nonprofit family center in the city, and that's how I learned about community development and I started a role as a facilitator the last few years I was there and that led me into learning about graphic facilitation, which led me to where I am today. So if I wouldn't have pursued that path of early childhood education and kind of pursuing my passion for being a mother, I don't think I would have ended up where I am today too. So it kind of like this interesting, like full circle.

Wow, it was meant to be. It was meant to be Absolutely.

Oh.

I love that, love that story. Minds I creative, sketch notes, school, all the stuff you do Tell us about that.

Yeah, so, like I said, I started this journey in. There's so many different terms for it, but I call it more live illustration these days because that's sort of the most like friendly way to talk about it. People understand so. So I learned about this 10 years ago and I started and then a couple years and sort of decided to kind of build a business around it, because you kind of have to because like people aren't hiring like full time live illustrators and companies, so very, very few I've heard over the years. So I go to conferences, I go to meetings and strategic, strategic planning sessions and all of that good stuff, and I, if I'm in person, then I have a giant piece of paper, usually like three or four feet wide by however long it needs to be sometimes, but like six or eight feet long, and as the conversation is unfolding or as the presenter is speaking, I hear what they're saying, I'm synthesizing that information and I am putting it on the paper in a combination of words and drawings. So if you can imagine this live illustration kind of, you know, being unfolded throughout the presentation or session, and then my job is to be very quick and keep up, which is kind of the unique challenge of it. So when they're done, I'm pretty much done, so people can kind of look at it, hear what they're saying, and then they have this visual representation of what they just learned.

That is so interesting. So do companies and businesses like hire you for specific meetings or events.

Yeah, that's sort of like I said, the unique aspect of this type of work, like we're all kind of like I don't really call myself a freelancer, call myself a business owner, because I feel like that's like I want to be taken seriously as a business owner and not just like pardon me.

I didn't need to say freelancer.

I want to be taken seriously. So I'm like I feel like I call myself, I am the owner of this business. Then it just has a little bit more weight than like a freelancer. So we all are kind of business owners or freelancers in this kind of industry. But yeah, like I said, there's very few companies that like hire internal staff to do this kind of thing as like a full time thing. So one of the questions I usually get at meetings and stuff they're like, so like, is this like your job? I'm like yeah, it's my full time job for almost 10 years. And they're like what? Like you, this is your job. You get to like go to these meetings and draw pictures and like, yeah, that's what they pay me to be here for.

Don't you just hate how people like dumb down, like creative jobs and creative businesses and things we do. It's like, oh, this is a fun past time, is this a fun hobby for you? And it's like no, like this is my job, this is my career, this is my life, and like it's so. It's so frustrating, it's so frustrating.

It's like I digress, it's fun, Like I've been doing this long enough. Like you know, when you start out, the rejection is is hard right. Like the amount of rejection that I would get every time I sent a quote to do this. Like it was really really hard to push through and I read like a lot of books on rejection and all the stuff to try to like not crumble. Every single time someone either ghosted me or said, no, we don't have the budget for this, or just whatever. But now I like now that I've been doing it for a while and I feel more anchored in the value of the work. I can speak to it and I sort of, like you, shift from in this like afraid, like I'm going to be rejected space that. Over time for myself anyways, I've experienced that you like, they're going to miss out if they don't hire you, like if they choose not to hire you, that's too bad for them because their attendees would have really appreciated these visuals of at that conference or whatever. And if you choose not to invest in the accessibility and the engagement and the value of how people learn in that space, that's too bad for you and too bad for them. So it you know, if I would have never thought I would have gone and gotten to this space when I started so early on when I would be sending those quotes and getting constant, like daily rejection. So yeah, just, it is sort of a stick with it kind of game, because it does hurt. Like every rejection you get hurts less and less, and then eventually you get to a point where I'm now where I feel pretty brazen. On sales calls I'm like, hey, you fun, because if you're not fun I'm not going to work with you. Like you know, you're interviewing them just as much as they're interviewing you. Right, you can, you can be a little bit more picky and choosy and now I have clients like the majority of my work this year has just been repeat clients, you know. So you know. And when new ones come, if they haven't seen your work before, all you can do is try to explain it the best you can and show your portfolio and show and tell them what you can do and how people will engage with it and leave it at that and if they choose not to hire you, it's all good, it doesn't matter, it's that energy that you put out. It's weird because if you put out that whatever, I don't care, energy, that's when they hire you, but if you put out that desperate, like I need this job, it's the only job I have this month Energy, energetically. It doesn't always work out. Either they'll take advantage of you or it won't work out, or what have you. So, yeah, the ones that I try not to even get excited about potential jobs anymore, because then I don't want to attach anything to the outcome, like if it works out that would be cool, but if it doesn't, there's another client around the corner.

Love the way that you approach that. The more confidence you have in yourself and the more firm you are in your foundation of your business and what you do, it kind of like exudes professionalism and someone's like, oh, maybe I do need this, this could really benefit me, even if they haven't heard about a live illustrator. I feel like visual learning is big. In corporations or some conferences, meetings, it's all words, it's all just listening in words, and I am a very big visual learner. If I have a visual in front of me or something that's put down, not just words, it really helps me digest it. So maybe some people don't even realize that they are a visual learner until you come and you put that expression onto paper and you're like, oh OK, it helps them really learn it better.

And understand it more. It's the number one comment I get, Really when I'm in person events. I do a lot of online now too, and then after I just kind of basically turn my business on its head during the pandemic and move everything online, but when I'm in person, it's the number one. People will come up to me and take pictures and that's the number one comment. They're like I love this, I'm a visual learner. Yeah, that's amazing.

So have you heard? Did you hear of this process before you started your business?

Yeah, so it was fall of 2013,. So almost 10 years ago now, pretty much 10 years ago I a friend of mine who's a facilitator he told me about this one day graphic fundamentals, graphic facilitation workshop and, as cliche as it sounds, I took that workshop and the rest was history. I was like it is beautiful coming together of all things facilitation so the listening and the thinking and group process and how people learn in a room and engage with their own ideas that world plus the creative world that I've always really wanted to be in. But I didn't think it was possible for me. Like, I call myself a dabbler, like, if you name an art medium, I've probably tried it, because maybe I tried it for a week, maybe I tried it for six months, but I've tried so many different things over the years, but all self-taught. I've never taken art classes, like any of that stuff.

Really. So you are a wow, you're amazing. So.

I actually had to. I had the facilitation like the listening and the thinking skills down more than the art skills actually, when I started this. So I had to really beef up drawing over time and I call it building your visual vocabulary, because it's like you're learning a language. It's not straight translation, but it is still like when someone says vision or collaboration, I already know what I can draw for something like that. So yeah, that's sort of kind of how I thought it and I hadn't even really seen it done before until I had taken that workshop. And then I was facilitating, a group at the time threw up some paper on the wall, just did it. It was bad, it was messy, it was awful and then put it away for a few weeks or a few months, I can't remember Pulled it out and I was like, whoa, I can remember so much, like from a learning impact, from a memory retention impact. I was like, well, this isn't just a cute thing, this is actually a really powerful learning tool. So that's when I started to kind of play around with it more and got a few little jobs. But those first few years of my last 10 years it was a secret business people. I didn't tell people I was open for business. And then it wasn't until 2015 that I actually attended the Worldwide Conference for People who Do this Work, so people from all over the world. I'd go to this conference once a year and I was able to be in a room with people who have been doing it as their job for like 20 years or more, and then there was people like me that were brand new, so it was really inspiring. It was very intimidating, but it was very inspiring, and I left that conference. I was seven months pregnant in Austin, texas, in July. Oh my poor thing I left the time and I left that conference and I was like, OK, after this baby's out, I'm going to figure out how to create a business.

So that's when.

I decided to actually do the business part, not just like, oh, I'll just do it when someone asks me. Or I had some facilitator friends. Every once in a while they'd bring me in on a job, but it was very quiet those first few years. I was just sort of building my skills at that time. And then, when he was six months to a year old or so, I was like, yep, all right, let's figure this out, let's figure out how to build a business. And I had no idea I had not taken an entrepreneur class, no, business classes, nothing. I was just like I want to figure this out. I'm like if these people figured it out right, oh, for instance, I'm sure I could, like I'm smart enough, I'm like I figured it out.

So you really did teach yourself, besides going to school for early childhood education, the whole business aspect, the art. You really are self-taught in everything.

Yeah, I know it's ridiculous. Really funny. Those little decisions that feel like they're too early to make sometimes, like turning it into an LLC or opening a business bank account or officially registering or getting a business card printed, or even just having a landing page or creating even if it's just a Gmail, but it's like your business name like those are actually like small shifts that you're telling the like. I'm very into the universe, so that you're sending a signal to the universe that you're taking this seriously and it does make a big difference for sure. And I really like build my business on two things that I think are a bit unconventional, that maybe resonate with your people is my intuition and experimentation. So for my intuition, basically I just like listen to things that I'm seeing and things that are around me and I lean in on that. So you know, I try not to get to what's like squirrely like. You know what do they call it?

You know, when you're shiny, object syndrome you know like I try not to yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right. I think like I'll randomly say I'm working away in the middle of something. I'd be like, oh, I wonder what Janet's up to. And I'm like, oh, I should email Janet and ask her what she's up to. Like I just take these little and then you know. Or like I play games with the universe, like if your people are in the universe, I'll be like I'm going to walk away from my computer and when I get back there's going to be an email from a client who wants to work with me and like, sure enough, it shows up, right. So I try to take these like lean in on my intuition. Like if you talk to a business expert, they'd probably go no, no, like their strategy and you have to follow these steps or you won't be successful. And I'm like I don't fall, like I've never fallen fallen steps. Like I've learned things from courses, online and things like that that I've implemented. But you know they showed up at the right time in the right moment for me. And that's sort of when I lean into that intuition. But like I I I never created a business plan. I just know that if I charge this and then I do this, I will make this and this is how I invested back in the business, but I've never like to me. Maybe this is not good advice. I'm gonna say that way, I don't know. A business plan is to go and get money. So if you want to borrow money from a bank, you write a business plan, but you could sit down for an hour and do the numbers of like. Okay, if I charge this and this is my like, it's a pure product. I'm service based. But if you're a product based business, be like well, these are my costs and this is what I want to make and this is what I have to charge. Like done, like. It's not that hard. You just got to use some math. I have a business bestie and her and I get together a couple times a year and we, you know, I push her and she pushes me. I make suggestions for her business and she suggests me, so you can find someone like that, even if they're online or something, who's in a similar space, like maybe not same business, but like adjacent, and you know a lot about each other's businesses that you can challenge each other on. And then the experimentation piece like I just try things, so I'll send out some emails to this group and it doesn't work. Cool, like I'll do this, I'll do that and then that way you like never really fail at anything because it was just an experiment. It was not that the experiment failed, it just like didn't work. The way that you thought, like you had a hypothesis like go back to, like elementary school like science. You had a hypothesis and it was right or it was wrong, right, like I'm going to try doing this in my business and I'm going to try it for three months or six months and it works or it doesn't, or you probably learned something along the way that pivots into something that will work out, right. But then that way you just sort of like try new things without the fear of feeling like if it doesn't work out it's like the end of the world, kind of thing.

That's a fantastic way to go about it, and it takes such pressure off of you too. Exactly, yeah, you are very valuable. Your business is valuable, what you offer is valuable and everything you say has just been so valuable.

Oh, come on.

Oh, it really is. I don't sugarcoat things. I tell you how I feel and it really really is. I love, love it.

You know like it's. You know it's a tricky thing because I do like talking to where, like where I am now, but that journey of like the rejection and all of that and like getting through that, I know I just sort of like spoke about it, but like it is really hard in the beginning too, you know, and I wish I could remember all the things that I thought about at that time, because I just remember feeling like it was so hard. But now that I'm like even just a couple of years ago, when I was only a few years in, it's like, oh, this isn't that hard. Like when people say you know, people you know, look up to other people in their community who run businesses, and I'm like running a business is not so hard. Like I don't know, like why do we put people who run businesses like on pedestals? Cause it's not that hard. Like at the end of the day, like you have to get through and change your mindset around it, I find. But it's just like basic math and making sure that you feel good about what you're being compensated for, and like I've just inched my, my pricing up over time. Like I didn't start. I started at what was like on the very low end of what was very common in my industry. So I sort of like found out at that conference what was sort of a good range and I started at the very low end of it because I didn't change my mindset. I had to slowly change my mindset around how I feel about being compensated for this work over time. So I've just like incrementally increased my prices over time. Um, you know, I'd love to sort of do a big jump sometime, but like you have to adjust your mentality to what you believe you're worth and it's not like a bad thing, it's like, oh, I'm not worth that much. Like you just have to adjust. And especially from a creative standpoint, it's there is still so much stigma around getting paid well for your creativity or your art. And I read a lot of books about money because money is such a funny thing that nobody wants to talk about but everybody has to deal with. And the only time people do talk about it is to complain about it Like everything that's so expensive, that's so like. I really am careful, especially around like kids, when I say things like oh, that's very expensive, because something that is expensive to somebody else might be a steal of a deal to somebody else. So somebody will say to me, oh, like that's a great price. Or someone will say to me, that's expensive to my pricing. And I'm like, like you cannot adjust to their feelings, like it's their mindset or it's their budget or what have you like that's not about you, and I call it my resentment level. If I'm in a job and I'm feeling like a little resentful, that means I didn't charge enough, so next time I have to charge, just like a little more, I'm still feeling a little resentful. You know, like if I charged what I charged, you know, even two years ago I'd be resentful. But two years ago Ashton was like sweet, like this is great, I'm going to do this work.

You know, I heard once it was like it's not something. I said you know, people complain about small business prices. So I can't afford to shop small business or I can't afford to, you know, go anywhere Walmart, you know and I saw something. I said it's not their price, it's your budget, kind of like what you just said and that totally. I just remembered that quote and I was like, yeah, so sometimes if I see something from you know a small business, or like you know a long business, and part of me wants to be like, oh, that's expensive, it's like no, that's what they value their knowledge and their business and their time at. Maybe my budget is not for that right now, or maybe my budget is and yeah, it's so true, it's so true to like retrain your brain and think in that mindset instead of just like, oh, it's not so expensive, it's like no, what are you getting from it, though you know it is worth that and it might just not be in your budget at this time.

Especially, like I did, the Craftsville market circuit for a while, and those are hard Because a lot of times it's a, it's a stepping stone for people like, especially if you're making something and you're watching the people walk by and that's all you're seeing. They're like oh my God, that's expensive. You're hearing it all day. It's really hard to change your mindset at the time. Be like that's, that's their thing, that's it. That's nothing to do with me, that's nothing to do with who I am, that's nothing to do with my. The value of what I created is nothing to do with that at all, which is extremely hard to separate, because if someone doesn't want my illustrations, they're saying no to my creativity and that you know. But you have to separate it, unfortunately, like you have to go. This is what you're creating in the world and what they perceive in their own mind when it comes to cost is just not a match and that's okay. It has nothing to do with whether or not what you created was quote unquote worth it to to them or yourself. That makes sense. That's perfect.

Oh, that's so good. I'm going to put that on repeat in the podcast so people can hear that voice. That's so good.

Yeah, like, if, if, like, if. I highly recommend like you have to at least read like one money book a year at least. Like there's so many good ones out there. There's so many different ones like written by women that are really, really good. My favorite is called overcoming under earning by Barbara Stanny. She's actually a Huson now, barbara Huson. I love her. I've read that book like 15 times. I do it twice a year to challenge myself and how I believed six months earlier and it's just like incremental changes around what we're worth, what we can charge and all that good stuff. Because I think the majority of us grew up in households where those money stories were like embedded into our DNA of like money doesn't grow on trees, you have to work really hard, you know all of these cliches and quotes just get like stuck in our thinking. So when you bring that to your business, it's really hard to run your business from a place of abundance and worth and you know value when you're stuck in, like if you're like, oh well, I wouldn't even pay this. You know, I saw that I wouldn't pay it like no, you have to shift your belief in your work and what you've created and you have to adjust your thinking to match that right. And it can be an incredible like I didn't realize going into building a business, how much time I would say I spent the same amount of time, if not more, on personal development than I do on my actual art skills, like so important, like business skills, like my business and my creative skills combined. I probably still spend more time on personal development. That's like listening to podcasts, that's reading books, that's you know, doing those like the hard work of, like your thinking, because you are like. I know other people that do the same work as I do, but I'm like way more busy, and I think that's the only reason because I've talked to them and they're like, oh, I could never do, like I would give them suggestions, like, oh, I could never do that, and I'm like, but you could, though, right, right, the only difference between myself and them is their thinking, how they think about things.

You know that's a really good segue into. The next thing I wanted to quickly talk about is for the moms listening who want to start something. But they have a mix of I don't feel like I have enough time with kids if they have like small kids or medium I don't know medium age kids or that fear of rejection or it's a lot to want to start something, whether it's a business or something just creative. How did you find that balance of still being mom, full time, present, mom doing the mom thing, motherhood, all of it but you know your child was like six months when you were doing this. How did you find that balance of being mom and then still going after your dreams? Starting a business with with everyone has that fear of failure and everything, but how did you overcome that? And what like piece of advice do you have for moms listening to say just go after it and do it?

Yeah, I was just listening to something the other day was probably a podcast and you know my personal development stuff and he said something about things that take as much time as you give them Right. So if you have a belief that something's going to take a really long time, it's going to take a really long time, but you have yourself a year to get to a certain goal. It's going to take a year to get to that certain goal. So I think also, we have this really obscure concept of time. We all think that we can accomplish way more than we actually can in a certain amount of time, and I don't think I thought about all this stuff all those years ago. But looking back at it now, I think like I am a very hashtag overachiever, like when I found out my blood tape was a positive of like of course it is, of course, because even my blood type is overachieving. So I have this insatiable drive for to be doing, doing, and I know like I'm trying to break some of that and try to be like I need to take time for myself and like I had a real big issue with, like the concept of self-care for years that I'm like slowly trying to break down. Anyways, coming back to what I was saying, it's, um, I think you have to just take like bite-sized things like what can I realistically Accomplish this week without shaming myself about it, without saying, well, I wish I could do more. Like, maybe, setting up a business bank account. That's the only action you take that week. Maybe that's fine, maybe that's all you can do, and it's actually like to me, doing things like that are Almost like more important than like showing up to a networking event because you're doing something that is Signifying to yourself. I'm taking myself seriously, I want to be you know, I am positioning myself in this way and and getting comfortable with the visibility. That's a whole other conversation we could talk about for like another hour for sure, because, like the visibility of being on podcast and showing your face and talking about what it is that you do, or showing like going to a networking thing, I'd be like I do this thing or I have this product, right, it's very scary. So I think this sort of like just try to take like a bite-sized approach and be fine, and Try not to let those voices in your head go. You should have done more, you should have more, because so typical of our brains to like shame us into you should have accomplished more. Like you should have done more this week and just pick like one One thing that you're going to do. That's going to like move the needle in that in your business, and I'm a big proponent for like you can't have a business unless you tell people about it. So I used to have a rule for myself early on that I would tell, like you know, x number like five people a week that I have a business and I'll tell you to be like why not have a business? Like it could be somebody you know it could be, like your mom, like it could be, you know, a co-worker at a previous job. It's just like, fyi, I have a business, if you know, if you ever know of anybody who, because you never know what those connections are going to lead to. Oh, it's so true, right? So getting comfortable with talking about the fact that you're open for business and don't be like me and have a secret business for like three and a half years, because you can't grow if you don't actually talk about the fact that you're open for business.

No one will take you seriously if you don't take yourself seriously. This is me, this is who I am, this is what I do and I'm good at it. Then other people be like oh okay, you are, this is great. You tell me more. And it's just those small mindset changes that can really take you to the next level and have people take you to the next level.

So true and don't limit yourself to your own community. To be honest with you, the majority of my work is outside of my community. I live in a very small town. Well, I live 20 minutes outside of an eight, eight thousand person town. Right, this is the city that's an hour away is only 250,000, which is the majority of where I live. So, and for me, I grew up here. So there's a certain notion of people in the community they think you like, they've already pegged you based on knowing you since you were a child right, I live in the same small town.

I grew up, and boy do I. Do I resonate with that? Yes, and they go.

Oh, that's so cute, ashton doing her little drunk. Oh so Kelly doing her cute little podcast.

Oh, you did a little radio show. That's cute. You're talking to moms. Look at you guys.

Oh, that's so cute I had to work outside of my own community. I would love to work in my own community. I think there's so much work to do here, but I I know the rates I want to get and people aren't gonna pay them here. And then you know what. It's not a good thing or a bad thing, it's just a thing, it's just reality and I'm okay with that. You know, if I have to drive an hour to the city, if I have to hop on a plane or drive a few hours, like, I'm okay with that. Like the majority, even on base in Canada, the majority of my clients are in the US I'm okay with that. You know I'm working a lot still online, which is great because I can work with anybody. You know, like, if you are making a product, you know, reach out to other stores in other communities or cities before you reach out to your own, because you'll get confidence and like oh, other people appreciate what I'm doing. Then you can leverage that experience to if you do want to go back into your own community, because your other community, your, your own Community, will go hey, she's going and doing that for all of everybody else, but we want that too. Like, why is she all like awesome over there? We want her to be awesome here, right. But sometimes when you start out, we stay small and we stay in our own communities. But we then you have that, especially if you're in a small town like me, of small town mindset, right. So I feel like incredibly alone. I do. I've spent a lot of time with online friends because I feel Extremely alone in how I think about things, how I run my business. When you tell people, they just like, don't get it, it's you know. So it's not a bad thing to look outside of your circle. And then also, if you get rejected, it's not like you're gonna run into them at the grocery store, you know, yeah, I had a friendship ruined because of staying in my community when I first started and he Reprimanded me for my pricing, even though he has no nothing about my industry. I was devastated forever about it you know, and you know, and I have a facilitator friend who's traveled a lot for work too, and he's like why don't people appreciate what's in their own community? And I'm like I don't know, dude, like there's something. I'm like, oh, we brought this person in from Canada because she's so great. You know, yeah, it's such a weird thing and I think if you stay your own community, sometimes it helps you stay small. I remember I was working in Chicago a few years back and I just remember looking up at all the buildings and I remember thinking to myself Look at all these people, I only need three or I only need five, or whatever the number was at the time. I can't remember be like only need like two or three of all of these millions of people that I'm Leaning out now to hire me, like that's actually so insignificant. So I think, like in the like an example like that, like you realize how big the world is and how much of a tiniest little pie you actually need to be like quote-unquote successful.

You're amazing. Thank you for talking me like seriously I want to talk to you forever. Where can people find out more about your business and you and connect with you online?

Yes, we didn't even get to this today, but I will just do a quick little plug. So I'm actually transitioning a bit in my business, like I'm still doing live illustration, but I'm actually teaching people how to do it now. So more so for small-scale note-taking. So, especially if you're a mom and your kids taking notes in school, there's a concept I wrote a book about it called sketch noting. So I have the beginners guide to sketch noting. So it walks through very hand-holdy emphasis on the beginner, especially if your kid may not be overly creative to learn how to draw your own notes. So you for school or for meetings. So I it's. I'm really passionate about trying to get this skill set and as many kids in particular hands as possible, because I Feel like the way that we traditionally take notes is just so it well, it's boring for one. And I don't think it helps us learn as well as something like visual note-taking can. So just a matter of combining what you're hearing and the words and just adding some Taking doodles and making them a bit more purposeful so you can learn about the book. I have a weekly newsletter that gives a sketch noting tip a week on Saturday sketch note Saturdays. I've gone online community so you can learn like all about that at sketch note dot school. Ww. Sketch note dot school. And if you type in my name it's kind of unique so you'll find me. I'm all all the socials and then my professional live illustration and work is at mines, I creative dot ca, so you can find me in all, all the places.

Yes, now everyone listening. You know she's so inspiring. I love everything she said, so please go check her out and their show notes. I'll put links to everything and I'll actually put a link to that. That money, the finance book you were talking about earlier. I'll put that too, so people could, you know, read what you said. You've read multiple times. So Amazing, ashen, thank you. The time with you today has been so valuable, so I appreciate you giving us your time talking about what you do and giving such Great advice to other moms listening to start their stuff too. So thank you so much for being here today. You're welcome. Thanks for having me. You.