Managing Personal Injury Cases in a Subluxation-Based Practice

Hello, welcome to the line. Your Practice podcast is Dr. Joe Esposito. I have Dr. Renny Edelson back in the studio with us for another episode ready? How are you?

I'm wonderful. I appreciate you being here. And I appreciate you having me back.

Yeah, I was so excited after the last episode that we did. Because you brought philosophy to the personal injury, we talk a little clinical, I get really lit up, but we chat because we never we never forget philosophy we never forget clinical Haley's put the discussion together in the full framework of chiropractic. So I love I love the dialogue with you. So we did talk about personal injury of the last one, we talked about just the category as a whole, the value to the patient, the different relationships, that insurance company, the attorney, the chiropractor, the patient, I love, just to bring it back on the table, you had said that there's an insurance company say that everything is old, there's nothing, the damage was minimal, and you have the attorney salivating on the damage, the new damage the acute injury, because that's where the case lies. And then you're sitting in front of the patient, telling the patient it's both sides. So I love the advocate seri mindset that you position makes me really excited about personal injury because I can be a true warrior for the patient trying to do what's best for them, which actually supports all of it right? At the end of the day, that case is handled the patient's handle B without the Cairo it could slip to one side or the other. Right, the patient may not get anything and insurance company wins. The attorney thinks it's all acute. That's none of that's right. What you're saying is, you're just managing the patient, which is I don't know, at the end of the day, it's so authentic, I never looked at it that way in personal injury before. Any any thoughts from our conversation last time to bring it

back? You know, we're we're chiropractors, right. And I think it's the most frustrating part of being a chiropractor is that, you know, my father, my father was in the toilet paper business, and he had a hat. And it said, number one, and number two business, you know, and the chiropractors, chiropractors always wanted to be number one, and like, let's just cash dries, and you know, just eliminate the medical profession and throw them all in the bottom of the sea bad for the fishing is great for humanity. And I'm like, you know, that's not true, because chiropractic thrives in the number two spot, we're number one and the number two slot. And I've always remembered my dad's hat. And it's really, really important for us to understand that, you know, we live day to day in the trenches where, you know, people believe in chiropractic don't believe that the where are they on that journey, you know, of disbelief, seeker to, you know, believer to understand or to an ambassador, and, to me, none, there's no difference in bringing a personal injury patient through that process than it is somebody that has a neck pain or woke up wrong, it's exactly the same thing. Now, the responsible party may be at the very beginning of care may be different, you know, more of the insurance, but hey, let's not, let's not water this thing down, the insurance adjusters get paid by saving the insurance company money, period, period, their job and their salary and the expectations and agreements that they have, as an adjuster for the insurance company is, hey, this case, they have this thing, this insurance program is a smart synaptic computerized program. It's called Colossus. Now there's about 20 different names for that now, right? But it's it's literally like the bee eye in the sky. And it's scouring everything trying to do the three Ds deny delay, or, you know, decrease the amount of settlement that there is to save the insurance company money. That's how it's the second largest industry on the planet. The, the, the adjuster, his job is hey, this, this, this case is worth $50,000 I'm gonna I'm gonna get make sure we settle for 40 or 45. And they make a percentage of the difference. That's how they get paid. The lawyer doesn't know any of this or care about any of this. They just want to go ahead and say what's the limits of the policy? I want the limits. I need MRIs I need neurosurgeons get shots. I want the patient to do all of these things. It's like a random, you know, like shotgun in the air. And I'm like, It's none of those things. Because we're dealing with a human being, you know, somebody that was involved in an accident. They're going to have subluxation and in and problems for the rest of their life. I want them Phyllis Sophocles' to understand chiropractic so that we bring them through the initial intensive care, it's never going to be long enough to rehab them. So the whole thing is predicated on lies, you have to come up with an impairment rating in two months on somebody that you know, that needs at least a year or rehab.

It's interesting, because without the chiropractor, the patient could be really confused because they talk to the insurance. And the insurance in their mind keeps talking about their previous injuries and making the patient feel bad that they had an accident I have been in that situation when they're interviewing you, or they're trying to make you feel kind of like you did something wrong, and you had the accident and you're in pain. And then the attorney is trying to send you to all these different doctors, and I didn't realize that neither of them are a patient advocate. Without the chiropractor be the advocate for the health of that human being. That could, that could be a major problem for that patient. So I didn't realize the necessity for chiropractic to take all the lead of these cases. Like it's mandatory, because no one's protecting the patient. That's interesting. I love

being in that position as a chiropractor, where I'm deciding what neuro so I don't ever work with orthopedists, neurologists. I'm a snob, but I work with orthopedic surgeons and neurosurgeons and I have, I tell them what it is that I want. I just want I just want your opinion, no, this patient needs some pain management, they really seriously have some bad ligament injuries, and they need some help just to get, you know, their their regular life duties. And, you know, back in order, and our job as chiropractors is to bring them from the abyss, you know, up to a place that's better than they were, you know, before. And it is it doesn't matter if they're a personal injury patient or not. Like I said, the biggest restraint is the time, money runs out in a personal injury case. So you know, to me, every everything that I communicate to that practice member is going to be philosophically sound that they need to stay on top of their nervous system for the rest of their life. And, you know, constantly work what we call the three or four legged stool, I like the four legged stool stool better, clinically, then which we're gonna bust open here in a minute. But you know, people just don't make better, they don't make choices. They just, I'm here and I'm gonna get a settlement. I'm like, Yeah, well, then what, then you're going to be even sicker. And you know, than you were before, and all that money is going to help you.

Yeah, so that the client, the patient, is dealing with the attorney attorneys telling the patient you're gonna make so much money and their mind gets caught on settling this case for their injury. And like ready saying, someone has to get them to see the light, like, you got to live in this body, the rest of your life, like the attorneys done, where that check is cut, and they make their peace, they're done with you, but you're still in that body for the rest of your life. So as chiropractors, we got to get them out of the mindset of that crisis care their settlement, because they truly of injury, and get them to understand they're gonna be living that by the rest of life, and we have as a team, you and I got to work together to to bring as much value to the structure that you're living in. And I the reason I wanted you on the podcast, I mentioned this, the last time we spoke was I've been in personal injury practices. And I see that it's no philosophy. There's no color on the walls. There's no doctor patient reaction, it's just seemed very this stereotypical anyway, it seemed very transactional. When I went in your practice. There's high fives, there's hugs, there's color all over the walls, there's energy, there's Table Talk, there's philosophy. And I'm like, I've never seen that. People are doing personal injury. And I think because the revenue is so good. And they're in a sense, going because their attorney said they should go, that you just get lazy. And you don't hold the conviction to chiropractic for these cases, and you've held such conviction because you're a philosophical chiropractor. I don't think you know how to see a patient without teaching them the essence of chiropractic however, they come in your office. So it was really wild. If I walked in your office, I'd say to well, this base clinic period, I wouldn't even know they were in an accident. So that was, you know, something I haven't seen anywhere in the nation anywhere. And if anyone had an opportunity, not that I want to flood your office with lots of guests coming in. But if anyone is in the town, and ready is available and willing to just see the operation, I would urge you to do so. Let's break this down already just a little bit will go a little clinical but managing a case. We can't go into all the testing that you do. But there has to be some objectivity. You have to document the case. You got to communicate with the firm that has the give us five minutes of just framing out, it is managed a little bit more well rounded and more comprehensive. Give us a take us through a little bit.

Well, you know me, I always want to expand the conversation, just knock me out if I if I keep talking because this, there's too much to share here and in a short period of time, but I really want to be able to get this point out, and then I'm gonna go ahead and flip it. Okay. And that's this. When in the world did people's people change their philosophy of life, they're involved in an accident. And the first thing that they do is they call up an attorney. And the second thing they do is they go to the ER, when this happened, I'm like, I want a billboard so bad for 40 years of my practice, if you fell off the ladder in the garage, who you call in first, the lawyer or the chiropractor, right? And it's like the end, they'll be like, the chiropractor. I'm like, Why did you call the lawyer first? If your health is your health is not a number one priority? It's a number two priority? Will your number two priority was to go to the ER? Did you really think that they were going to admit you to the hospital? When you when did were you missing a limb? Did you have shards of glass in your face? You know, did you did you think your spleen blew up? You know, like what happened? That? Did you think you were going to be admitted? No, we'll so three hours goes by $18,000 of billing and you're released with a prescription. And they tell you to go to the primary care physician who knows this much of everything and nothing about that thing. And so that was so frustrating for me to when I was kind of making decisions as to do I want to go ahead and see personal injury patients. Do I want to go ahead and fill up my offices with these types of patients that may have a difference in philosophy? And the truth is, I think we unpacked it in the last series, go back and watch it again. You know, with it's full, it's old problems and new problems that are aggravated, and it's really important. But clinically, you have to be able to know how to uncover some of these injuries. And that was the question that you asked, right?

Yeah, like like the whole case management, like First off, we know low back pain someone comes in, you may not take a great history, when someone gets hit head on, or somebody gets sideswiped. And really, and you don't take a history correctly, I'd say if it was made, I'm not going to take away your, your expertise here because you're going to break this down for us. But to me, the case history is weaker. In the average chiropractic office, the documentation is weaker, the objectivity is weaker. And if we fix those three, on all cases, PID or not, it's going to help us be a better doctor for the patient, whether they got hurt, playing basketball, or getting the car accent, right, those those three I think are weaknesses in our profession. Just stereotypical is documentation, objectivity, and, and that initial case presentation.

So you know, when when somebody walks into a neurosurgeons office, and they have a range of you know, they got some sort of a problem. I don't know if anybody here has ever witnessed this. When was the last time you ever saw a neurosurgeon breakout a goniometer, or, you know, an inclinometer? If you don't know what that is, that's a digital digital tool that measures range of motion, they go bend down, forward, bend down, backwards, bend side side, my I'm the expert. I don't like the way that looks, you know, and I'm like, what? I'm like, where are you? I mean, we need to be more clinically excellent than a neurosurgeon. You know, we need to be able to document range of motion. The AMA guideline says do that three times and get a tear average of each one. So there's, I use the myovision. I love the mild vision, you know, tools, we document the with surface EMG. You know, we document with doing really posture because posture is a window into your nervous system. So as your posture moves away from the normal weight bearing, it adds pounds per square inch of pressure along the spine, all of these things matter. You know, if there's ligament laxity, you need to go ahead and take some X rays that are going to go ahead and show ligament laxity. And there's digital ways with laser measuring devices. They call them digital radiographic menstruation and rotation. It's a big word, but what it means is if you have more than three millimeters of slippage because of an accident, It that's called EO MSI alteration of motion segment integrity. That means that they have a 25% impairment, which is the same as a missing limb, or a surgeon fusing with titanium plates and screws to vertebral levels. Wow, that's significant. And we see this all the time as chiropractors all the time.

So you're saying you can document based on a flexion extension by a beret motion, where the obviously there's ligament laxity, which makes total sense that that motor unit is not stable, it's moving way too much. So when they're nodding their head, or riding a motorcycle, or going for a run, that a beret motion is going to cause weakness, and it's as risky and as much impairment to their body, according to documentation as a lost limb, that's, that's intense.

That's a tap. And listen who, what as what chiropractor Do you know, I don't care what your philosophy of what school you went to, all of life is coming through a hole that big through the foramen magnum, right? That's brainstem, that's autonomic nervous system, right? So the integrity of Atlas sitting right up underneath there, it's a game of millimeters. And when we do open mouth, and we do a lateral and you see that thing, sliding, sliding off, see two, on one side, you're like, Oh, my God. I mean, who wouldn't cringe as a chiropractor to know that that's what's happening, you know, and it was as a result of an auto accident. Man, I just relive that, with my I just became a grandfather for the second time two days ago, you know that. And they were like pulling and pulling and pulling on the head of the, of my grandson. And you don't think that there's ligament laxity there, you know, so it doesn't matter, the mechanism of injury, we're talking about personal injury, and there's opportunity here, you know, to be able to get back maybe where we're not seeing babies in the office, but we have seen adults with the same type of injuries. And, you know, it's going to leave them with autonomic nervous system issues for the rest of their life.

And so, so we are on the same page, a ticket a case history better than you would you've done probably in the past is necessary, right? You got to really understand the mechanism and document that well, right. That's number one, you bet. objective testing, like you're saying flexion, extension, maybe EMG, you're doing some objective documentation on the injury itself. And being able to tell that story. Now, you will I know, you know, in allied life, whatever our visions is the integration of multiple components, all three body composition, you know, the the average American is, you know, 68% over 68% are overweight or obese. That's number one, we have a highly inflamed culture. So the accident that you would endure today as an American versus an accident, maybe a 1960, different altered body comp, loss of muscle tissue, high inflammation, metabolic derangement, highly inflammatory, and this accent on top of it, like you said, that old twigs going to break people's level of a health these days, they're just not as resilient as a human, as a 40 year old human today is not a 40 year old human in function in 1960, based on our lifestyle, right, so you're probably seeing more damage from the same speed of an accident, versus 1015 years ago. That's a hypothesis I have. But I would assume there's just more damage because there's less resiliency of tissue was that far fetched of a thought?

Now it's spot on, it's spot on. It's spot on. I mean, listen, there's first of all, when they come into the office, I think it's important because there's chiropractors that are listening to all this, that one thing that I never ever, ever, ever let happen is let a person that was involved in an accident, not attend my better results, faster workshop, my new patient orientation, because they have to go through this philosophical from seeker to understand their phase so that they understand what metabolic subluxation is. They understand that, you know, the problem isn't because they're, they're obese and it runs in the family. The problem is that nobody runs in their family. Right. And, and, you know, we heard those and it's kind of funny, but it's not funny at all because you and I had this conversation the other day, and I know you get lit up when we start talking about Clinical and metabolic and it's like in the integration I'm like, and I'm like Dr. Joe, when have you ever seen somebody that is only fat on the outside? Yeah, okay. I mean, they're fat on the inside, their organs have fat on him, right? The muscles have fat on them. And inside the spinal canal is fat, easy, crazy. And so that's another one of those 25 value drivers is if the person's metabolic profile is obese, right there, they have obesity, they have inflammation, they have poor diet, poor habits and not moving properly. They have fat on the inside of the spinal canal, you add ligament laxity and inflammation to that you now have impingement of not just the thecal sac with the cerebral spinal fluid is but potentially cord compression, because of fatty tissue infiltration. And every time that there's a tear, it heals back with scar.

I'd love to see research on that because that's, that's that's something that I've, I've studied and you're right, you have ligament laxity, extra fat tissue around the cord, you're talking about direct cord compression, not not, you know the spinal nerves, but cord, direct cord damage out Greeks and neurosurgeon out of Sweden said that you actually get scar tissue on the spinal cord from the accident like literally. So think of it you have scar tissue on this live wire, you have fat in the house where it lives, you have the vertebra shifting out of position way more than it should. So that light up is creating, you're talking choking compression directly on the spinal cord, where people are having these odd symptoms, personality problems, this ability, lack of mobility, because direct cord dysfunction. So I love that you've embraced my philosophy. Actually, it's our philosophy because you were into the functional metabolic function even in your degree years ago, in college, but our philosophy you've embraced that we've we've put together a live life where we're actually looking at things, not just an x ray, but you're looking at lab tests who got metabolic dysfunction, which is beyond me in a pie, personal injury, paste practice is insane. You're literally taking people that are looking at Patchwork, personal injury, and you're changing the way they're thinking they're behaving, they're acting, and had to become a better human being way before they were before the accident, which is just unbelievable, unbelievable.

And the timing of that the timing of that can vary, you know, in as people receive you and they start understanding, you know, the philosophy of chiropractic on this journey of the first one or two or three, you know, two and a half months of care in your office. Some people like all in very few, but some of them and some of them, you know, they're like, no, no, no, no, no, I wouldn't even think about stopping this. I'm like, There's no way we're even remotely close to rehabbing you, and getting you back to the life that you could be living. And if that's something that's of value to you and your health is is a number one priority, then the very next step is we're going to be doing a lab to find out where you're deficient and where you're toxic. And the first step, the second step is going to be let's go ahead and put you through a five Oregon detox. So we can etch a sketch your body and start you off fresh and tell you here's the nutrients that your body is screaming and deficient. And this is what you need. You don't need to be taking all of the other stuff that's in your closet that people told you or you saw on Dr. Google that you need to do this. You know, here's what your body needs.

So what are you the my dream and my my life's work is around the integration of natural health care to get the best outcome. I'm honestly against the doctor that just buys every new whistle and tool and shiny light. I'm not even though I'm an integrative practitioner. I'm not the guy that's gonna buy every little cream and Tool and Machine that I could, but I am about reaching an optimal state of function. I like obsessed by it. So how do you feel? And there's some struggles in trying to anytime you add a service, it's more communication. There's more there can be objections, there's flow issues, right? You have to know you got to be more mature in business. You got to be more mature in training. It's not easy. Like when you try to integrate services when we look at our our counterparts like the joint that doesn't even take X ray think of the simplicity that business no X ray no analysis, no exam, just move some bones and see you later. There's no follow up. There's no care plan. That's pretty simple right? Now what we do is a little takes more work. And it's just the way it is. I just really proud of the outcomes we're getting. But speak to the integration model. I don't want people to think this is like a cakewalk. But it provides outcome. And not only patient outcome, more referrals, better economics for the clinic, more profit if you do it well. But if you don't do it, well, it can actually hurt you. If you don't integrate it correctly, you don't communicate with the different practitioners, you can cause more of a mess, less referrals, and worse reputation and less profit, right? So it's not give me your scoop on that. And based on the way we're doing this in a live life.

Yeah. So listen, it's really important to know, listen, we're not glazing this thing over. I mean, there's a little bit more work that needs to be done. Not a lot, but it is a little, for sure, there's a little bit more work diagnostically. But there's, you know, we're always looking to streamline the PII a lot of this stuff is goes through, you know, in the, in the, in the in a in a in an a questionnaire, you know, you can gather so much information of somebody's life through questionnaires. And so that doesn't really require a lot of time to do that. But it requires a little bit of time for you to look it over and care enough, that you're really seeing what's really what's going on with that person. That is the difference, right? You can gather the information, but if you don't care, then it's not gonna matter. So you got to care. And you got to care a lot. And so that that, to me, is more than anything else. And I think that my practice members get that from day one. You know, they just know, and there's no difference. I don't care if they're in a personal injury. Listen, my job on the second visit is to decide whether I want to accept their case and are they're not they're not accepting me, I'm accepting them or not. Right. So are they a good fit for my office or not? Is there help enough of a priority? We don't need more babysitting. Like we don't need any of those type of problems. Because when somebody comes in and pays my care plan for 5700, I tell them, I go look, your health has to be a number one priority. It's 5700. I don't care if you come in once, or 73 times. It's 5700. There's no refunds, okay. So you know, when somebody comes in with personal injury, they're not reaching deep in their pocket. So you have to be able to sell, you know, you got to sell this movie of wellness and put them in it or not put them in it and say, here's where your life is, you're at a fork in the road, you're either going to be that way, or you're going to be that way. Which road Do you want? Yeah, the

art of self selection is two fences to climb over one gives you one outcome, like it was the other outcome. And I like what you just said. And that goes back to our last podcast as to why is there this lack of philosophy or lack of retention or lack of wellness? Well, we're do a personal injury, you just nailed it. Think about it, you have to be so philosophically sound as a doctor and feed them education consistently, inspiration and guidance so intensely, because the first part of care when they're really in pain, inflamed, loss of function, they're not paying anything, then when they're feeling good, they're out of pain, they're doing better. Now they have to start paid. You have to have such value built for them to start paying for the care they got for free when they were dying and paid. You better have your philosophy Well, and that's really the reason is building value. I just answered my own question for last time. Why do we not see any retention? Why do we not see any this longevity? It's because the philosophy wasn't built up strong enough to make enough value to pay for it because they weren't paying when they came in at the beginning. Right. I mean, that's, that's kind of what you've built, which is, which is awesome.

Money Follows value. Right? Yeah. So, absolutely. So to me, you know, I decide whether or not they're going to be a practice member in the office and for how long? You know, and, and as long as they're, they're good, and they are meeting expectations, and they're progressing along well, when we get to, you know, impairment rating final, for the for the attorney. You know, that's, you know, I gotta tell you for seven years, for seven years, I did not continue people that I was seeing personal injury. And keep in mind, you know, you know, what kind of volume I see in my offices, you know, when we're not, you know, seeing, you know, 30 people a week or whatever, when we were seeing hundreds of people a week, and 50 or 60 of them between three offices or personal injury. So there's 20 new ones coming in every single month from us from One of my trusted sources that I have a relationship with will built on one thing, the integrity and the responsiveness and the and the clinical excellence that we're delivering. One, two is the practice member, the client, coming back to the referral source and saying that they are so happy with the care. I don't know about all those other people. But this is where I mean, I got the most care from these people, and absolutely make sure that they're paid. You know, and, and those things are really, really important. Because if you're running a pie office, I tell you, I, you know, I came from the jungle down in South Florida. And, and, you know, in the jungle, everybody is in everyone else's back pocket. And philosophically, that was one of the reasons why I didn't want to see personal injury. You know, I don't want any money exchanged outside of the box. I don't want to go ahead and have any type of deals going on. You send me one I send you Yeah, no, I don't do that. I'm sorry. That's not my philosophy. My philosophy is your your clients deserve to get the best care imaginable, and no one's going to document it and give them the better give them the best care possible than us. And the responsiveness of that to your desk is going to be invaluable to you because you can't get back time. Time is money. And you want that information you want it done. Right.

So saying that, I think, you know, if you were giving advice to a doctor that was doing personal injury work, you actually left this situation went to a new area, and you built relationships and you get referrals from from attorneys, but these are higher integrity organization, they enjoy their clients getting better. They lean on you because you get results. It's not it's not like some of the other relationships that were tarnished to not have integrity. Would you say that that's important if you're building a personal injury relationship to have a relationship with attorneys that are you know, are of integrity that pipe makes?

Oh, my God, I mean, listen, we philanthropically. Last year we donated $300,000. Out of my organization alone, how many chiropractors on the line here say she stroked out $300,000 philanthropic Lee to help some charities that are in the area like Meemers hospital with kids that have terminal illnesses for that family to be able to survive? How many people have type two diabetes children? You know, we gave them $100,000, I raised $80,000 $75,000, in change, for, for hospice, you know, those things are near and dear to my heart. And so I have a relationship with attorneys that share in that type of philosophy. I'm in we're in the business of changing lives. Well, as a result of our abundance, we should be able to touch other lives. Don't give me money. There's no kickbacks. I don't want to hear anything about any of that shit.

Yeah. Yeah, so it's summing up this, this podcast. Number one is, start with integrity in those who are late, make sure we maintain integrity of those relations, not for yourself, because we hope everyone's has that lie of integrity, but for the relationships around you that everyone's there to serve that patient. Next is make sure that you do good case histories, you understand mechanistically how things happen, make sure you do objective testing, and then build a philosophy from day one about the essence of their body of what they need to do for long term success because they're living in that body forever. Carry that philosophy all the way through the management of a personal injury case, get the documentation solidified, so that it substantiates their case. And then teach them how to maintain wellness for the rest of their life. So I think that's kind of what I did takeaways. Now if people want to know more, you know, you can reach out through this podcast to align life. Dr. Reddy, if we're lucky enough, he may be doing some seminars. If you have an interest, please reach out. But teaching chiropractors of how we can better serve clients in personal injury settings. Any final thoughts? Dr. Ronny?

Yeah, I'm not going into the seminar business. So you don't have to worry about that. But I really think that our profession, you know, should be and hopefully we'll be a little bit hungry of the 40 years of what I skeptically and through a lot of scar tissue picked up and these are things that are even, you know, from a very basic standpoint, that a lot of the chiropractic profession can benefit from, you know, profitably. be able to do that and be able to more importantly, you know, not isolate themselves, but from by not taking care of these type of people that so desperately need our help, and they don't have anywhere else to go, you know, I pray with my, my team, when we huddle, and we say, you know, this people on bent knee last night that are praying for answers from God that God doesn't return the phone call, he provides the people in the path. And people still waiting for the return phone call, you know, for the phone to ring and say, hey, you need to go here. I'm like, he puts the people in your path. And and, you know, chiropractic is, is an answer to a lot of those things. And so I'm really, really happy that you invited me on here, I know, it was just kind of a really broad stroke and just touching on things, there's so much more to unpack when it comes to knowing how to do that properly. But you know, I'm really, I'm really proud that I was able to accomplish that. And that that stands for something for somebody else, because I shared that philosophy with you, I, I was like, you're either go that way in chiropractic, or you go that way. But you'd never go ahead and do that. I was like, and I was like, you know, I just refused. I refuse to believe that. But I had to come to a place where I really understood it. And, and I had some expertise behind me. And and then I came back in, and it was like, oh my god for years, I struggled to try to get a personal injury case. And I was like, I don't want to, I don't want anything to do with this. Here's the greatest litmus, I'll leave, leave the listening audience too. I love it. When when a practice member comes in, that's a personal injury or was involved in an accident. The greatest litmus of whether or not you're a philosophical chiropractor, is if they see their spouse get signs up for the exam. Because in my office, the spouse has to come in for the report of findings. I don't care if you're in an accident or not. Right, so the spouse comes in, or the person who helped them make the financial decisions, even though they're not making one, right, their health decisions. So that and that they're referring, the practice of valued practice member who is a personal injury patient is referring real people to you. You know, and that, to me, internal referrals is everything. Right? So it's I don't rely on the attorneys. I don't rely on that just one vertical, you know, for impatient for people to come into my practice. And that is a big difference.

That's a great, that's a line in the sand. And those of you that are listening, understand your lines in the sand. What are you going to do tomorrow to level up the practice his line in the sand with these cases, is to say, are they bringing a spouse to understand their health journey? Number two, are they referring their family, friends, colleagues, neighbors? That's awesome. Because if they're not, then you haven't told the chiropractic story. You haven't shown them the philosophy of a different way of managing health. So that's awesome. Well, thanks again. Ready. This was another great episode. We're probably going to be asked you to come on more and more and I'm sure we're gonna get great feedback from your insight. Thanks so much.