Carving Your Own Lane with Comedic Musician and American Idol’s Tom McGovern

Welcome to diner talks with James slide into the booth and let's have conversations we never want to end with friends we never want to leave over food we probably shouldn't be eating

what's going on my friends welcome to another episode of diner talks with James I'm James and a pumped to be here with you kicking it in the diner, y'all. This is what you know about me if you've been listening to the show, you know, there is one thing that I consistently crap on. And it's the state of New Jersey. So I'm now defying all odds and having a guest from the state of New Jersey just to show you that I talk shit but I still show love you know, because I love jersey. Here's the problem I grew up on Long Island and the Long Island, New Jersey are basically the same exact population and that's why we make fun of ourselves. We try to pretend like we are different but we are not we're just trying to find differences. Alas, my friends jersey is New York. I don't want to talk about it ever again. But we're gonna jump in with my boy, Tom McGovern, Tom and I have met only a few times, but each time has been memorable. I've heard his beautiful chops. I have gotten to witness him perform. He's got to see me perform we freestyle together. I do a lot of freestyle rap. I don't talk a lot about that on here. But anyway, but still. I just there's just you meet somebody like there's something about this dude. And I think you'll see that there is just something about him, but let me tell you about him before we bring him out. He is a musical comedian, actor, producer. And yes, he was born in New Jersey. His Award winning musical sketch comedy has been featured in festivals across the US, Europe and he made have caught him and an Off Broadway show is Jim Halpert slash Andy Bernard and the office of musical parody. Tom recently won the grand prize in the GLAAD jingle contest, put that in your ziplock bag and was featured on season four of American Idol. Maybe you've heard of it. He got to perform one of his jingles for Katy Perry. Speaking of plastic bags, Lionel Richie and Luke Bryan. Tom's got a brand new comedy band called The Wolves of Glendale. Check them out on Instagram wolves of Glendale. They're playing a bunch of shows on the West Coast. And also Tom made a point to tell me that James, make sure when you introduce me, you say that sharks deserve more love in the media. Well, this is the media friends. So here we are. I'm doing what we got to do. And I agree as a marine biology major, but enough about me. Let's learn more about Tom bring him out right now. My guy, Tom McGovern. Whoa,

okay. I mean, a lot to acknowledge right off the bat. First of all, unbelievable introduction. I could have listened to 15 more minutes of that. Okay. Second of all, I don't even know where to start. Can we start with the before we dig into any of my boring BS your marine biology major?

Yes, sir. You have a Bachelor of Science in marine biology. What? That's a fun fact. Right there. Yeah. When I was in high school, I had to make a decision if I wanted to go to school for marine biology, because I wanted to be the next Jacques Cousteau. Or if I wanted to go to school for theater, and I told myself, I said, I think that I should get a degree in something that's more concrete. And then if theater or the stage is in my life, then that's really more about having enough talent and putting yourself in front of the right people. So I don't necessarily need a degree for that. This is what I thought in high school. I've since learned that that there is some value in theater degrees. So don't you know, I'm not shitting on everybody with those degrees right now. But that's why I went to school for marine biology

and respect, man, that is very cool. That was a dream. Ironically, we kind of have both sides of the same coin, because that I was gonna go one of two ways. It was either gonna be theater or marine biology. And I decided, started as journalism switched to theater halfway through, but I ended up with a theater degree. So that's so funny.

Incredible. That's awesome. Yeah, I could have switched halfway through my junior year I realized I was putting too many jokes in my scientific papers that teachers were like, No, I don't think this is for you. And I was like, You know what, I think you're right. And but I was already almost done. So we just went ahead and finished the race. Wow. fell across the finish line did not finish with flying colors, but we got it done.

We got it done. That's what life is, isn't it? It is it is indeed. Falling across the finish line.

At least you made it at least I made it so yeah, brother. Yeah, that's a fun fun fact about me that probably hasn't given up on our casual conversations. Yeah,

that's I had no idea. I love sharks. So like anytime that I meet a marine biologist, I'm I have the utmost respect. Yes, fascinated So,

and that's if I pursued marine biology and real and thought about maybe wanting to do research if I wanted to go into IC theology, which is the study of fishes, and sharks was the goal. I wanted to study sharks and, and so yeah, so I am here for Shark Week is the best week of the year. Of course. I don't know why it's not shark month, you know, I mean, as a shark and its own month, you know, but, but yes, I agree. When did your fascination with Shark start? Was it that you go to your from Jersey? Did you go to the Camden aquarium and see them? Did you just watch TV? Like, what was it?

Yeah, I think it started when I was a kid, my mom's sister was very into, she was into fishing. She was in marine life. My grandfather was a captain on a on a charter boat. And so he used to used to go out onto the water all the time. I was too young to really experience that with him before he passed away. But we did go out on the boat a couple of times. And he's hungry in his house. He had this big office and the office just like wood panel that looked like the Yeah, the inside hole of a ship, it smelled like cigars. And there were pictures of, you know, marine life and all sorts of stuff. And, and so I think it wasn't even an active like, you should appreciate marine life kind of thing. I think just by osmosis, I developed an appreciation for fish. And for the ocean, I've always felt kind of connected to, if I had to choose an element, that would water would be my element. I just always felt kind of connected and grown up in Jersey by the Jersey Shore and stuff like that. The beach was always part of my life. And there's something about sharks that I just found really, I still find fascinating. They're just I think they're, they're the perfect, close to a perfect creature slash predator. So I think it's pretty rad.

They are incredible. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I love that man. What a cool story. You know, it's my grandfather was not a wasn't a charter fisherman or anything like that. It was just obsessed with fishing. I also lost him too soon. And he died when I was seven. And so some of the few memories that I have are of fishing with him. And and he wasn't a cigar guy. He was a pipe guy. So now whenever I don't know if this is the same for you whenever you smoke cigars is it does it take you back to that office almost immediately. Because a pipe it takes me right back to his front porch.

Yep. Anytime I smell it just like you said. It's just also that's the most grandpa shit in the world. A pipe and a cigar and I hope our grandfathers were there. You're puffing.

That's how we know. That's how we know we've done right. Right full circle. Yep. Yeah. I love that man. Yeah, I agree. I just went to the Atlanta aquarium recently. And the I don't know if you've been to it. But they have the whale sharks which are incredible. Now they are now I believe the only they are also now currently the only aquarium that has Tiger sharks, which is really good. I have a new shark exhibit and I got these hammerheads swimming around and Tiger sharks and a few a few others. It's an incredible, incredible exhibit.

Wow, that's it's easily my favorite aquarium that have ever been to take is amazing.

It's top notch top. That's a good it's a good time to bring up one of our sponsors. The Atlanta aquarium. That's not true. I wish it was I should work out actually. Good for that.

I'll help you in any way in any way. I can. I'll help you.

Yeah, that's on the record. So Tom, like you mentioned you grew up grew up in Jersey. What part of Jersey? Did you grew up in a

little town called Allentown? It's right near Six Flags?

Allentown okay. I'm not by Six Flags. Yep. So kind of if there was a Central Jersey that's where you grew up. Are you a non believer or non believer in the I just know it's a shit talking thing or in drown jersey. So I like to pick fights where I can. Now are you are you pork roll or Taylor ham pork roll? What did what do you think this is? I'm not a lunatic. Or girl. I don't even know how to describe that argument to the listener. So maybe if you want to give it a shot you can but it's worth it.

Here. I'll try to sum it up Porcaro and Taylor ham are the same exact thing but for some reason people that live in correct me if I'm wrong. If you know I think the northern half of New Jersey generally chooses Taylor ham and the southern chooses pork roll. I consider myself smack dab in the middle but I guess it's South Central if I had to choose. And so it's always in Portugal on all the menus in my town as Portugal. So,

same exact thing, just a random thing. Jersey is like, hey, you know, we'd like to fight. Let's figure out another way we can fight.

Let's make an issue to meet.

Yep, exactly. That's kind of what we're talking about with. As you heard my intro about New Yorkers and Long Islanders in particular and people from Jersey that's kind of same thing Taylor ham and pork roll where it's the same exact ship but we just give each other crap.

He's Long Island have that as long as I have the pork roll telling him split or No, it

doesn't. I'm just trying to I'm using that as an analogy. Long Island, I mean, Taylor ham is if we do have anything, it would be Taylor ham. But it's usually just bacon or Canadian bacon or whatever. So yeah, but anyway, so growing up in Jersey, or an Allen town, no stranger to a diner, my friend, especially because you also spent many years of your life living in New York City. And so here's my question that I gotta ask Brother. What is your late night diner move? What do you get? And you and I after his show? We're leaving. Whatever that's green, whatever it is. And in Times Square. And we're going to with Dieter, what do we get?

Okay, I'm not a complicated man, James. I get A a traditional once it hits 11 I basically 11pm I usually circle back to breakfast. 80% of the time, I'm going classic scrambled eggs. Crispy bacon. hashbrowns side of wheat toast dry with some grape jelly. Can't go wrong decaf coffee. I'll have that 80% of the time. If for some reason it needs something a little more savory. It's always going to be a grilled chicken wrap with honey mustard, lettuce, tomato, red onion, side of crispy fries, or sweet potato fries. They have them. But it's only one of those two things.

That's it. That's all we're doing. That's it. What's the what is the rest of this 14 Page menu even for? better understand it right? Yeah, who's? Who's ordering the T bone back here? Who's getting? Who's getting the gimlet of anything back here?

Getting a steak at a diner. Have you ever met someone who has done that?

Yeah, yeah, they did. At least they did steak and eggs which I feel like it's like the it's like the least classy way to order steak. And therefore Yeah, but anyway, but still I I respect the order I sometimes you scramble with cheese if I'm feeling a little edgy. The dry toast was intriguing to me dry chose no butter. And then we're doing great a classic grape jelly on there. Oh yeah. Yeah, I'm a great boy. Have a great boy. Great boy. I read that I read that actually.

Tom would govern great boy from Southern New central New Jersey. Southern

geez, look at that. It's already see a song coming out about be great boys. Great boys. Throw your hands up strong.

Boys. Hands up. Hands up.

Love it. So okay, that's that's a classic order. Now when it comes to your hashbrowns I order my you said you order your baking crispy. I also order my hashbrowns crispy, because I'm not trying to just chew on like a raw potato.

Right? Yeah, that's interesting. I've never considered doing that. But now I regret it. If I get home fries, all ask for crispy home fries. But for some reason I never think to ask for crispy hashbrowns so yeah,

I like my spreads crispy. I'm actually in a recent episode of this podcast. I talked to a french fry Connie Sua. And and we we were talking about how steak fries are the least superior of the French fries because of their lack of crisp.

Yeah, well, it's mostly just potato. It's basically just a mashed potato wrapped in a little shelf of crisp.

Thank you. Thank you. So yeah, you get it. All right. Well, we don't need to rehash that. We don't need to rehash brown that out. All right. I regret everything. Let's keep moving. So, so I love it, man. So growing up growing up in Allentown. What was what was your childhood like? Man, what? You got siblings, your parents in your life? You know, I say all those things sensitively, just in case there's something that I don't know. But you know, tell me tell me about growing up.

Yeah, I've got a one of four siblings. So I have one of four children. I have three siblings, older brother named Drew. He's a doctor of physical therapy. Then there's me. And then I have two younger sisters. Sam is a preschool teacher in Jersey and Tori is a nursing assistant. She got a neuroscience degree from Pitt. So I'm the how do you say dumb one that decided to go for theater arts. Oh yeah. artsy. Interesting way to pronounce dumb. And yeah, both my parents are still my life. My mom, my dad. incredibly supportive from the beginning I decided I wanted to switch to theater they said what are you waiting for? Go for it so growing up that you know is it loud super loud house really tight family unit I'm really I'm really fortunate and blessed to have had that I kind of had the wind behind my back I've kind of had the wind on my back my entire life and I'm really really grateful for that. So and it's all because of my unit so the family unit

Yeah, I love the way you put that the wind behind your back that's I grew up very similarly with the wind behind my back and some of that is that that camaraderie of family some of its privilege, some of its you know, a whole bunch of stuff but yeah, well well put for sure. That's beautiful man. So so you're number two in line and you got some some siblings that are doing some cool stuff and when you were growing up was was I know at one point you said you made the decision to follow theater but like was was acting were like you know you see the loud family are you are you all putting on shows for your parents behind the couch and do a puppet shows like was was acting was theater even though you didn't call it that always a part of you?

Yeah, I think that I mean, music was a pretty, it was a pretty instrumental part of my growing up. No one really played music. My mom was a singer. But there was always music playing in my house. We always had little dance parties or we'd put on I specifically remember for some reason it was like a little mermaid mixtape. And you know, there's like, I just remember Sebastian had a song that was just a ripper. And we're just used to throw it on and dance around regularly. It tons of home videos of it's just goofing off. So when I got to middle school, I think fourth grade or fifth grade. We did like a little middle school version of a musical. And, and then once we started doing real shows in sixth grade, we did the music man, seventh grade, we I forget what we did. I did Annie in eighth grade, and I just fell in love with it. And then in high school, I did musicals, but my brother was an athlete. And so when I got to high school, He's two years older than me. He was a junior, and as a freshman, he was already flying colors through basically every sport that he touched. So when I got in, I was not known as Tom I was known as Drew's brother. And I was expected to be an athlete. And so I played football. We went on 12 bikes. I didn't, I didn't contribute. Rather, I did contribute to that record. And then in the spring semester, I ran track, I pull vaulted I cleared 761 time, you start at seven, and you go up in increments of six, so it's not an impressive height. And then the next fall, I auditioned for Thoroughly Modern Millie, and I booked Jimmy, which is the the it was the lead role for the dude. And then I fell in love with it now is it No, no going back? So no going

back? Wow. That's That's awesome, man. That's awesome. Now did you know as a as a younger brother, did you know that your brother was a stud even before you got to high school? Was he someone that you looked up to some that you appreciated? What kind of an older brother was he?

Yeah, for sure. I mean, we definitely we definitely butted heads until college. And we like we got along and there was always like I said, like a really my dad really reinforced like you have your families back all the time. Sunday was always Family Day family comes first. No matter what our whole lives. It's like that. So like, obviously, I love my brother. But like any teenage boys that live in the same house, you're going to get on each other's nerves. And we shared it we shared a room our entire lives. So we had bunk beds, and we were kids. And then through high school, his bed was in the corner of a room. My bed is in the corner of the room. So like I that also another conversation helps me later in college to have roommates and learn how to share space with people and whatnot. Yeah, I mean, I always admired him and looked up to him because he's my older brother. And I thought he was badass. And he's always been like super strong. And you know, just a great older brother, but I used to take his clothes all the time. Because I valued that I used to wear his hats and he loved his hats used to get so pissed off. And, you know, we used to get on each other's nerves, but I definitely do did and do respect him. So yeah,

yeah, you got to find those way. You got to needle at people, right? We can't just let people get away with being great. Everybody's got someone who could take him down a peg. But yeah, that's awesome. That's beautiful. Yeah, and I would imagine as someone who never had a roommate, even in college, I didn't have a roommate because they put the out of state students in these apartments on campus even though I asked to be in a residence hall because I wanted the community. I'm an extrovert. They put us in like it's for single bedroom apartment and My first year and then after that I was an RA. So I did I never had a roommate until I moved in with a previous partner of mine.

So did you two things I want to talk about? Did you first one did you hate living alone as a freshman? Okay, yeah. What was that? Like? While I

was wildly homesick? Of course, yeah. It was what I mean. And fortunately there were, there were two there were four people in the apartment was one Junior and three freshmen. So that was nice that there were two other freshmen in there and one of them is still I was his best man or just surprised him for his 40th birthday in Chicago. And so he and I've continued to be friends the other guy, I think we still wouldn't be friends. We just fell out of touch. He's a great dude. No beef, no anything. Just, you know, life took us different ways. And, and so, but yeah, but it was my first I was miserable. My first year despite being an extroverted, outgoing, genuinely curious, funny guy. I was wildly homesick my first year and questioned a lot. I didn't put myself out there. I told myself a lot of stories if you're not cool enough, funny enough, smart enough where like, all the insecurities came out, because I was in a place that was new. And everybody there knew someone from high school because I went to a state school in North Carolina. But I'm from New York. And so yeah, there was just a lot. I wrote a lot of stories and did put myself out there. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, that's what happened. Man fortunately came around and I fell fell apps after I got involved. This is why people tell students to get involved, right is that that takes you from being a participant in the college experience to being an owner of your college experience. And that's, you know, getting involved in Res Life and becoming an RA. Yeah, literally flip the script to the point where I then worked at colleges and universities and still do a lot of work in that industry.

That's amazing. That's the other thing I wanted to talk about. I didn't know your we have a couple parallels that I had no idea. I was also an RA for two years. Yes. Yeah. Your template

go out.

Go out. Yeah.

I've spoken there a few times.

Philly, that's dope. That's it, man. That's it.

Yeah. Being an RA. How would you describe that experience? Looking back at it? Did you like it? did? Did it have an impact on you? Yeah, absolutely

had an impact on me. It pushed me out of my comfort zone for sure. I lived in there's a residence hall on Temple campus called 1300. I was a resident in 1300. Freshman year, I was an RA their sophomore and junior year. So I was in the same building all three years, which is great. My first year as an RA I was the sophomore with swishy hair were bandanas all the time. And they put me in charge of the top floor of the res one of the wings of the top floor, which were all juniors and seniors in athletic programs. Yeah, so like basketball players and football players. And then there was me this skinny little sophomore theater kid who was supposed to be the RA, that advised and looked over this hall of who of people that seemed like full grown adults to me. Yeah, sure what it was super uncomfortable for like the first two months, simply because as you know, as someone who also went through it, the process of trying to learn how to be a good RA and learn all of the do's and don'ts. And then also just to like, you know, be there as a confidant or like someone that they could turn to was just hard to come into that as a sophomore who was also drowning in insecurities at the time. So that was that was tough. But then the next year I had freshmen and then I became very close with four other RAS on my staff and we used to, it just felt like one year of a sleepover. Honestly, it was just like, we just play video games in each other's rooms. We were hanging out with the residents. We were like, you know, spending time that resident a lot of residents became friends that we still all talk to you to this day. It was a very special experience. I wouldn't trade it for the world.

That's beautiful. Yeah, that's so freakin cool. Yeah, I love that. And yeah, that first year, that first year of leadership is weird. Regardless of who's on your floor. You had an exceptional because you mean temple. That's a D one school right? So you got some you got some big boys walking around. And, you know, people have full grown beards. Meanwhile, you're barely poking at a pube

still to this day, to this day, it is very day by day.

So yeah, but yeah, it was it was a wildly transformative time. But I now I you know, I'm a professional speaker. I know, you know that, that I talked predominantly about leadership. And I'm able to talk about leadership because of my experience that started as an RA and I still even there a brother I don't know if this is a good thing to say on or not on here. But But I I teach stories from when I was an RA and I just Flip a few details around to make it sound like I was leading a team. And this is what I was going through. And I now tell corporate audiences, a few of my RA stories, but I make them sound as if they were, you know, I was 32 as a brand new manager, right? Because leadership is leadership, but it's still humans. And there's still, there's still, I don't know, but at the same time, egos are involved. So you don't always want to tell the audience that like this guy's telling us freaking High School stories over here. So yeah, but But I mentioned that because it was such a transformative time. My wife likes to joke and says, I think we would have a twin extra long bed in our bedroom if James could. And, and I agree, it's a good it's a good length bed.

It does the job. Yes. It's all you need for one person. Yeah. With a partner, it gets a little dicey, but gets

a little dicey. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, unfortunately, I was wildly single for most of my college career. I love to see it. You love to see I love to say it. But I also I appreciate what you said, where it's like, you know, we're still close to this day with a lot of those folks. I'm actually I went of working as a residence hall director them after college. And yeah, I got a Master's in Counseling with an emphasis in working with college students and want to work in as a hall director for a while. And I'm officiating one of my old RAS weddings in May. And, and so like, it's just right, like, just out. It's just the community that you build is really beautiful. Because you're living in the same space, you're seeing the same things. You're going through the same stuff. And you make the choice of like, are we going to lean? Are we going to lean on each other? Or are we going to isolate? And exactly, it's beautiful to hear that. They you found a really cool community there.

Yeah, yeah. Where you and I are both very lucky in that regard. I think not a lot of people get to experience that in college right away, you know. So,

yeah, I agree. I could nerd out about this for a while, but I gotta we gotta keep pushing.

You're a cool, man. I did not know that. That's, that's awesome.

That's a dope. Yeah, that was a dope dope thing to have in common. So you wind up you go. So you go to temple. Did you go to temple with the idea of I'm going to study theater?

No, I actually started as a journalism major. You mentioned that earlier. Okay. When I was about to graduate high school, I knew that's what I want. I wanted to study theater, but my guidance counselor in high school said if you go for theater, you're never going to get a job. You should do something else. Which I guess is the guidance counselor's job, but also like why if you have an if I was a guidance counselor, and there was a kid in my shoes, who had done the musicals with great success for three years and high school and wanted to go to college to own his skill set. Why would you not support that? To this day? I just don't understand Mrs. Boast I think you I think you you missed a pitch on that one. But this is not about Mrs. Boast all this to say

let's fire up canceled culture on deck canceled boast.

She's a lovely woman. I wish her very, very well. I haven't talked to you in over a decade. But yeah, I got to college, three semesters of journalism. And I just remember specifically, I there was a night that I was in my XL twin bed, in my RA room with all my athletes. And I was reading a book and I literally, it was a journalism book. And I put it down. I was like, I can't do this. This is like not what I want to do. And that night, I went online, and I looked at the curriculum for theater, and then I talked to my friends and I called my parents two days later, and they're like, do it, go for it. And luckily, I was able to use nine of the 12 journalism credits, I already had put them towards Gen Ed requirements for my theater degree. So I was able to get out on time in 2014, which is great.

That's awesome. Yeah, that's dope. So in in studying theater, was it were you interested in doing musicals? Ideally, were you straight plays like, you know, when you thought about theater dreams at that time? What do they look like? Yeah, I

think I was always more attracted to TV and film, straight play acting. Yeah. But I sang in acapella groups my entire four years of college. Yeah, hell yeah. Dude. Let me say this is pre Pitch Perfect when maybe, you know, I was I was drinking the Kool Aid, but I it felt like a cool thing at the time. In retrospect, I'm sure it was whack whack as hell, but you got it. All of us were so psyched on it. I was in a co Ed group and an all male group. We had a blast. I did that for all four years. I grew up playing in bands with my buddies. Music was an instrumental part of my life. And so when I switched to theater, the girl a good friend of mine to this day named Katie, who's actually in LA right now. She helped me get into the theater program. She was a diehard musical theater major. And so my circle kind of became musical theater. And so I, I was kind of subconsciously drifted into the musical theater lane, even though to this day, it's really not something that I love. I just don't connect with traditional musical theater like some people do, like my girlfriend does, you know, is playing alphabet on the national tour or just finished. And so I did two musicals at Temple and then going to New York after graduation, I found myself auditioning for musical theater. And it took me six months to a year in New York to realize that I'm walking upstream. This is like, not what I want to do. I did it at school, because my friends did. And that I think, was a combination of me switching late to theater and trying to just like, find my footing, and, and really find what my artistic voice was. And it took me until I was 27. to really figure it out. There's a lot of a lot of rumbling and tumbling for a couple years there.

Yeah, yeah, sure. You know, you brought up a powerful word when you were talking about when you're talking about your first year of being an RA, and I can hear it kind of coming up a little bit now as well. You talked about some of the insecurities now. And, and you're right, as you as I mentioned, being a first year college student I was wildly insecure, didn't go up to anybody didn't seek to build community just kind of hoped it would come to me. Because I was, you know, I don't know, I was afraid that I wouldn't be liked. And, and so going into theater theater is fascinating, because it's the Island of Misfit Toys a lot of times, but at the same time, it's the it's the tightest crew you're ever going to be with. Right? It's like, oh, shit, we found each other. This is beautiful, right? I did all the musicals in high school, guys, and dolls and carousel and a handful of others do that I can't recall now. But anyway, but like I did all the plays at all. And so and in high school, like that was the crew that I that I rolled with, and would have done more in college, but I went to the theater department in my high school to see if I could audition just to do a play on the side. And the guy literally told me you will never get cast as anything more than a tree if you're not a theater major. Damn like it never seen anything. I never audition new A is like, and that was enough for me. I was like, Okay, great. Well, I don't want to be a tree. And that'd be a damn good tree, sir. But But yeah, and so that kind of put the kibosh on that which is why I was grateful to have found improv in college and you know, to your acapella was my improv and and we find our people. But, you know, during that time that you were revisiting slash cultivating and growing your love for theater, what were some of those insecurities that you have? What were some of the thoughts that were swirling in your head that were potentially holding you back?

Oh, man, I mean, am I am I good enough singer, Am I attractive enough, which, unfortunately, is a big part of, you know, theater, theater, TV, film, whatever do I have? What it takes to find, to dip into the emotional well, to connect in a way that makes me a good actor. You know, there are other people that look like me that are getting jobs that I think I might be able to get, you know, just like jumping into the theater pond at all, which my whole life I've been told was incredibly difficult to do and a reckless decision to make, you know, the the list of insecurities go on and on. And some of those insecurities have lasted. They've left their mark, to this very day. It's just I think, and I'm sure, obviously, you can speak to this too. The older you get, I think the less Are we allowed to curse here? Please fucking do. Yeah, okay, the less the less fucks you give it just like it doesn't, it really doesn't matter. Yes. But it's taken me to my I turned 30 In a couple of months, it's taken me this long to get to a place. For the first time. We're like, if I go to an open mic, or if I audition for something, I just don't give a shit. What how people might interpret what I'm doing. If it's if it's authentic to me, and if it feels exciting, or if it feels fun. If I it makes me laugh. I've only now this year, my life gotten to a point where I'm just like, I don't give a shit. This is Yeah, some people are gonna like it. Some people aren't. And I think for a long time switching to theater in my early 20s I thought that I needed to please everyone. And I spent my first couple years in New York feeling that way too. And I think that's why it didn't really work that much. Because I was trying to conform to what I thought people wanted. And I wasn't just like, following my own instincts directly enough. Hmm. So,

yeah, that was beautifully put brother. And I appreciate that. And I also want to, like, let's let's call attention to this, because you said that you switched your, you know, sophomore junior year into being a theater major. And so let's call that 10 years or so, of, of sitting in, have sitting in the idea of trying to please people or letting the nose hit you in a way that they slowed you down or deflected you or caused you to doubt or we're all the things that nose will tell us. And building that skin is something that all actors have to do all musicians have to do. But they never talked about how long it's going to take, right? I took a brick and marry commercial auditioning class. And we all did we all did. We all so they told us in that class, like you need to hear no 50 times before you start getting comfortable with just showing up at auditions, then that that number of 50 is different for everybody. Like, you know, for some people, it's 150. For other people, it's five because they just come in with a thick skin. Like here I am. That that was never me. Right my Achilles heel is I have a deep desire for people to like me now. And it's something as you mentioned, it still affects me today, as I turned, I'm turning 40 this year. Now I'm right. And you're you're turning 30. And it's just it's something that we hold on to it's a story that is hard to rewrite. And I think it's incredible that you have this year realized and been able to see in yourself that you are rewriting it. What do you think? What was the difference maker for you? Is it is it? Like what was the final like enough, right? I'm done? I'm good enough. Either you like me? Or you? Don't? I'm still common as me. Yeah. Was there a switch that flipped? Was it getting an accolade of like, hey, good enough for American Idol good enough for you shitty commercial, whatever. person, right? Like, like, what like, what was it?

Yeah, I think that's a great question. I I honestly can't trace it back to a specific instance of anything. Like, I don't think that there was one moment. Yeah, I think just recently, I think it was a combination of the shutdown of quarantining and realizing Holy shit. Like, we could lose all of this at any time. Why am I not going balls to the wall, just leaning in and owning who I am and just trying to create whatever it is that I love to create, because I may not always have the opportunity to share that. As cheesy as that may sound. I think also in combination of just like, making my own stuff. And by stuff, I mean, like musical comedy, short form videos, stuff like that. Writing these songs, I've done it for long enough now three, four years consistently that I know that I I'm pretty good at it. And I think it's just a combination of like putting time into that lane, and realizing that no one's ever gonna, like come out of the blue and, and serve you an opportunity in a silver platter. Because you are trying to fit a mold. I just think it's basically there's a long way of saying just time, just time I'm in my late 20s about to turn 30 And I just don't give a fuck anymore. It's like there's no time to waste. There's the you know, is like it you can I've tried, I spent four years trying to to make myself into someone that I don't really think that I was that I was an articulate way to say this. Yeah, just tried to make myself as someone that I wasn't and overtime, yeah, fit them all try to fit a mold, which I guess I already said. But yeah, too much time doing that. And then not really making enough progress. Like I look back at my time in New York, and I I'm very, very happy at the things that I accomplished and the people that I met and the circle of work that I fell into, but I to this day, like I don't really think that I accomplished anything that I'm truly, truly proud of. And I think that's because I spent a lot of time just trying to fit a mold. And it took me until 29 to be able to look back and I've done a lot of reflecting over the past two years as many of us have, and I can always trace it back to me just like not being authentic and, and true to me.

That's badass brother. It's beautiful. It is. No I know it has been a journey. Because you you've thrown a lot of spaghetti at the wall, right? Yeah, it's not like you're like you're not you're not like oh, this should be something next month. No, like no, you're out there. You're hustling. You're putting it out there. You're putting out videos. Some are getting a Hundreds of 1000s of views and some are getting hundreds of views and like and just you know, you're fighting algorithms, you're fighting everything. And it's been it's been incredible to watch as your friend. And even I mean, I've, I've probably known you for for let's call four or five years now. And so and that's when we started following each other on social media. And it's just been, it's been incredible. It's been really incredible to watch from, you know, the half of that 10 year journey that I've been able to see. And it's beautiful, right? I mean, so much so that you decided to move out of New York. And you said, If you dare to fly me look at look to the western sky and move to LAX or you mentioned your girl Talia dropped something in here.

Shout out Talia, shout out.

ELP above the national tour just came off. But still, man, but you moved to LA right. You're like, you know, you're making moves of like, No, this is, this is what I'm freaking doing world. And you go you go catch this sauce now. And my audience, I will find my audience and my audience will find me and we're gonna form a beautiful hive. And we will rock it till the wheels fall off. Now. That is, as you know, because you you're you're, you're now just now coming out of it way easier said than done. So many people get stuck for for perfectly legitimate reasons and other reasons that are just stories they tell themselves in this ain't for me, right? This is hard. This is it. And that's so I want to give you kudos. For for for your stick to itiveness and I agree the pandemic was a really beautifully reflective time. Now what are we doing out here? What matters what we're trying to do? It's also a really good time for you to amplify your voice as all we had was the Internet to connect. And I think you did a great job of taking advantage of that moment too. And so it's cool because now Tom, you you are a musical comedian. You are a musician who writes comedic songs. Now is that how you identify would you say a musical comedian what's what's what's your term? What the You don't have to put yourself in a box but you know, put yourself in a box.

That's how if I had to choose a box that would be it. You can you can take me up musical comedian.

Sounds good. You're in. I'll poke a couple holes. So but this is a this is such a fascinating genre. I grew up listening to Weird owl Dr. Demento I had Rodney Dangerfield I got no respect on vinyl and which randomly had some songs on it which are just terrible. It's like it's like a few really shitty songs into dispersed with some with some really great standup and but but so like but musical comedy has outside of theater. I don't know if it's ever gotten the love it deserves and and so even just as you talk about like even acapella sometimes get lumped into a musical comedy of like, it's a little kitschy John Yeah, you know that the kids enjoy from they everybody goes through their acapella spout. But But acapella is badass, right? It's still badass. And so how did you find musical comedy as a genre that you were like, Yeah, this is not always as fun, but I think I'm good at it. And let's keep going.

Yeah, like I said, a little while back music has just been a large part of my life since I was a kid. I grew up after school, we used to go to my buddy Nick's house, he had a basement with a PA bass, drums, guitar piano. After school, we would just go and we'd dig around, we'd play covers, but blink 182 songs, we all taught each other all of these instruments. And through high school, he did that. And through college. I kept playing piano. And so when I found that comedy is what I really wanted to do, and I found comedy through auditioning for musicals in New York, not booking anything, and just wanting a creative outlet. And so I made this parody of a bachelorette audition tape. And it it was received well online, and all of a sudden, I was like, Holy shit, this was creatively fulfilling. It was my friends thought it was funny. And a lot of people said make more stuff like this. And so I was like, fuck it. I have nothing to lose. I'm in New York. I'm not here to do what they want. I'm not working in theater, let's make some stuff. And so when I found comedy, it just kind of felt like a natural intersection of like, music is the one thing that I love most and now I've fallen in love with this new thing. which is comedy? Why can't we try to make both work? And then obviously I'd been a fan of the Lonely Island and Adam Sandler and Stephen Lynch and weird owl grown up, you know, like running with scissors was a staple album in my minivan grown up and so I used to listen to so much weird owl. And I knew it was possible, but I didn't it wasn't until I found Bo Burnham that I was like, Oh, this this is like a thing that Flight of the Conchords. You know, like these guys doing these? These very, not necessarily. Obviously, not all guys like Garfunkel and Oates, amazing, another amazing duo doing these things that you know, you a blend of two can exist. And so I started to make music videos and a lot of it again, like because I love to freestyle, I love to just mess around and like is rap with my friends just for fun. And the Lonely Island is doing it a lot of my early stuff was heavily inspired. It's like comedic hip hop, just because I found it very easy to write. And I thought it was funny for a white dude to rap about pigeons or to rap about tendinitis. You know, like, I felt like I could get away with that. And it was just fun to make. And so from there I started experimenting with different genres and and now the dream is to just basically form some sort of musical comedy brands with with by myself or with other people or with this new band was to Glendale have been playing with that can prove that musical comedy is not just a kitschy little thing. It's not just a cute genre. I really want to make it clear, commercially and in popular in the zeitgeist that like, it's possible to have great songs that you would listen to a loan that happened to be about really dumb shit. And I just really want to make that a well known thing. And so that's the goal kind of moving out here to LA is to lean into that.

Yes. Yes, brother. Yeah, you know, I'm in. Right, I'm drinking. I've drank this sauce. As a freestyle rapper who does you know, hip hop comedy. freestyling. Right. Like so, you know, I'm, you're preaching to the choir here, but we need to keep preaching. So we're going to and it's a I think that you pointed out you brought up a couple of, of individuals that I didn't even list off, obviously Bo Burnham incredible and, and lonely island. I feel like Lonely Island has been the closest we've got to legitimacy of this a little bit. And, and it's the contrast of hysterical lyrics over perfect production, like, truly not half assed incredible sounding expensive videos, right? Like, and it's that contrast, it's almost what makes Lonely Island even funnier. And it's, you know, it just draws you in. And so, so a shout out to them. They're big listeners here. But yeah. But yeah, they're kicking in the diner on the regs. But, but, yeah, I think that's, I think that's incredible. And, you know, as someone who also loves hip hop, we also see how in comedy and hip hop has not always been a good thing either, right? Like, ludicrous. In my opinion, ludicrous is probably in my top five. As far as lyricism as far as word play as far as flow like and the ability to pick incredible production right? Oh, Olivia is always has fire beats under him. But he'll never be put in people's top five because he's too funny. Right? Like he's just his his wordplay is too comedic and so people will never give him the credit that he is do they my opinion. Now, meanwhile, if you've got a song with a ludicrous verse on it, you know, it's gonna be fire. And so I don't know if you've sensed that as well. But in hip hop, you know, there's so much of that. If you are funny and hip hop, you never get the credit you deserve either.

Yes. Which is why I think someone like Little Dickie has a really interesting thing going on. Yeah, because he's like, I he really treads the line of, I'm a legitimate rapper. But I think as a as a white Jewish dude from Cheltenham. I know that like, this isn't a traditional hip hop vibe. And he really walks the line. Like he's obviously a comedic rapper, but he's also he has everything that like you mentioned, what makes ludicrous great in terms of fire production, amazing wordplay, sick flow. But obviously, I've heard a lot of like, I've seen interviews with rappers that talk shit on Little Dickie, even though he was in the double XL freshman class, like he, a lot people obviously won't take him seriously because of the things that he's doing. I don't really even know where I was going with that. But I know what you're saying. Like if you if there's an LM bit of comedy sprinkled on top of it, people aren't going to put you in the same tier as NAS or, or Kendrick, or, you know, some of the greats that people consider some of the best to do it, regardless of how good your flow is and your how good your writing is and your production.

Carell and I can listen to a little dickie freestyles all day. I mean, he's written stellar as well. It's just a wild, wild amount of talent. But we also see it in. I'm sure if we were to if we were to I'm sure someone has ran these numbers. But if you look at who's gotten the Oscars for Best Actor and Best Actress, they're nine times out of 10, if not more people from dramas as opposed to people from comedies. Comedy as a whole is just not as respected even though it's harder. And I don't just say that as like a bitter comedian. It's like no, this is hard, you guys, right? Like it's it just truthfully is and you talk to most actors, and they'll all tell you comedy is harder than drama. And, and so anyway, we can we could probably come down off our high horse right now. But, but still but one more thing. Oh, my gimlet. It was a call back. So comedy. I'm exhausted. But I love that. That's one of the biggest reasons now for you getting out to LA and and for really just you smashing the gas on it and add legitimacy you get on to you get the opportunity with American Idol. Was that just wild? Like what was that was that like? It's gotta be a crazy experience. What the hell am I actually doing here? Yeah,

that was pretty cool. Definitely trippy. I don't consider myself a singer, a vocalist at all, which is why I've never I love to sing. But I'm not a singer. Like some of my friends in New York are I'm not a vocalist. First, you know, I'm a jack of all trades, master of none type. And so I never auditioned for American Idol, or the voice or anything like that. Because I'm not an idiot. And I'm not I'm not having delusions of grandeur here. I know that that's not for me. And so when I got the opportunity to do it, because of a tick tock that had popped off, casting reached out to me directly, and it was like, Hey, we're coming out of the pandemic and this season, we want things to be a little lighter. Would you be willing to come on and an audition and join, maybe do something fun? And I was like, yeah, why the hell not? It's a pandemic, life is short, let's go for it. Right. And so at the time, I had been writing these jingles which Long story short, I started in the pandemic to try to spread some good vibes and, and make a little extra money. I offered to just write custom songs for people about any occasion birthdays, send a message to a roommate, tell somebody loved them kind of thing. I did that for a number of months, and they caught some traction online, I got a little write up on people.com, which is very cool. And so idol found that after finding my tick tock, and we're like, hey, it'd be fun if you wrote a jingle for the judges. And I was like, great. And so I did. I went with a premise of like, things that my mom told me about all of you guys, she found out that I was auditioning for American Idol. And so she went on Wikipedia and read all about all of the things that Lionel Katie and Luke have done. And I just put like random little pieces of trivia into a 62nd song and I sang it. And then I got to fly to LA and I got to sing it in front of them and I made eye contact with Luke Bryan and Lionel Richie and Katy Perry and it was crazy. Lionel Richie gave me a standing ovation after I sing. The jingle was just like, it was fucking wild, man. It was so cool. What it's

like Hello, is it me? You're looking for

a Yeah, exactly. Hello, Lionel. Let me sing your song to you. It was very cool. You know, like, I don't think that I, the whole American Idol crew was amazing. I don't think that I would do it again. Because reality TV is a lot of puppeteering. And it's a lot of like framing the way that they want to frame things. Like I was in the room for 1718 minutes, they cut the audition down to two and then they underscored it with some like derpy pizzicato string music at the end to it just didn't I wasn't like super jazzed on how things turned out. But what the cool part was, that was in October. Fast forward to May for the finale, producers reach out to me again and they say hey, we want to fill time in the finale. You were one of the first people that we talked about because we had such a great time hanging out with you. And we loved your song. Would you want to write a season summary song that summarizes the whole season four and then we'll fly you back out and we'll pay you sag AFTRA union rate to perform this song on the finale stage. And I was like fuck yeah, why not? This is exactly. And I don't know. I don't know.

I think I got it. Yeah, you

know what? Yeah, I'm supposed to eat eggs at 11pm in Midtown. I can't do it. What was cool is producers even preface the call with like, if you don't hate us after how you're on addition was aired, we'd love to have you back on. And you know, that was just a nice thing of them to say. And so I did that. And that was fun. And yeah, man, it was just like a really that was like a bucket list thing that I didn't even know I had intended to do. It's very good.

For sure. And there's no such thing as bad press right? With no exceptions. But yeah, so I mean, what an incredible opportunity to put your talent on display to legitimize it. And you're just like, again, just like, it's just amplification of your bed. essary now, I mean, what a cool opportunity. And so we do idol. And we make the move to LA I know you said you just got out of boxes recently. Which is, which is always fun. And tell me about the wolves of Glendale. This this band that you're a part of.

So this has been a lot of fun so far, man, they're the my band aid. My bandmates are named Ethan and Eric, and they were in a successful comedy band out here called the cooties for four or five years. Strong, strong name, strong band, they wrote very, very funny songs. And I found out about them in quarantine because someone had tagged Akuti song and atomic governed song and a story. And then I dug into all their stuff. And I was like, holy shit. Finally a band that like, emphasizes musicality, with the comedy to match. Like, they were really well produced, well written. Very funny songs with like, 92nd, like, beautifully written solo breaks for no reason. And then they go back into like talking about, you know, like, going to a coffee shop and taking a dump. You know, it's like, this is, this is amazing. This is it. This is it. This is Mom, this is what I want to be proud of. I want to write songs like that. And I I messaged Ethan on Instagram, I was like, Hey, man, if I ever get out to LA This is before I even knew I was moving. I would love to like, I love what you guys are doing. I'd love to like hang out or write something together. Fast forward to me moving. I meet up with Ethan we become very, very fast friends just kind of like brother from another mother situation. Oh, yeah, we start writing. We're having a great time. It's It feels very easy. And then the cooties parted ways last month, and I got together with Eric and Ethan. And we jammed and it was just very, very right away. It was just easy. Like we wrote a song the first time that we jammed and it felt really fun and and, you know, they having just left the cooties. We're eager to do something new. And so we just started kind of playing and we've only played two shows so far. Because we literally this is like week three. That's pretty good. Ethan's a Ethan's a go getter in terms of booking. And I love that. I love that. We you know, we've written two songs, two and a half songs. We played both these shows, and it's been the reception has been great. And we're just excited to see where it goes.

Yeah, that's awesome, man. I love that. That's great now so for you. Where do you where do you get? Where do your nerves get tweaked the most in a cool way? Is it the writing process is the performing like what what is it? What is it for you? Where do you where do you think you get the most hype?

Right now it's the writing process for sure. Because I yeah, I've never played in a comedy band before like this i i did some duo writing with one of the most talented people that I've ever met. His name is Nate Hopkins and we did a thing in in New York for a while called Tom and Nate which is like a musical comedy duo. We wrote some songs and writing with one other person felt more natural to me, I'd always written alone because I just didn't. I was sick of like, trying to organize things and having people flake so I was like, fuck it, I'll just do it myself. Like, I'll just write everything, produce everything by myself. And that's fine. But there's a ceiling there unless you're a superhuman, like Bo Burnham or, and I'm sure he also had some help along the way. So writing with Nate felt very easy to and we had we spoke the same language in a lot of ways. But then getting into the room with the wolves of Glendale, they Eric and Ethan have a very similar voice. They've known each other for 10 years, they played in the band together for five years. It feels like a writers room. And I've never been in a formal writers room where like, we're just like sitting down playing shit and just pitching, pitching, pitching, trying to find the absolute funniest lyric for this part of the song. And even at this stage, it feels intimidating to me and it gets my nerves going because it's just like, I'm not super comfortable with just like the fearless pitching of ideas yet, and I think it's something that'll come with time but it's been a huge learning experience even just for the month that we've been doing this. Yeah, yeah. The Performing reveals easy like getting up on stage and playing the songs. I cannot wait to do that. I don't get nerves. I just get like the excited butterflies. I'm not like oh shit. I don't I don't want to do this. It's just like, I can't fucking wait to do this.

It was good nerves. Yeah, those Yeah, those Say our name is Devin, I want to get on the stage. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I totally hear that. That's beautiful man. And that's, I love how you describe that writers room. That is such an interesting moment that you described, where it's like I'm around people that we're working together, and we're pitching stuff to each other. But there's still that, that insecurity. And because it's new to you, you're new to them. And it's just it's just weird, right? Yeah. And this is why this is why I like writing groups and why, you know, things like that, where we find people who are working on similar projects to us matter, because they push us we don't just settle we don't just say, like, I'm done for the day, we don't just, you know, whatever it is, it's being a part of those crews, whatever it is, right? If you're someone who makes knives, you forge knives, or like hanging out with other people who forged knives, and hanging out with, you know, people who throw pottery and hanging out with people who whatever like, like, you have to get around some of those folks. Because, I mean, it's the cliche thing that they say I never want to be the smartest person in the room. Right? It's the same idea. And I think it's cool that your nerves are fired up in that moment. Because that means that means you're standing on the edge of something special. Yeah, right. Like you don't We don't. Yeah, I think that's I think that's great. A friend of mine likes to say, if we're not standing on the edge, then you're taking up too much room. And, and, and I appreciate that, that you've realized that and you've stepped into it and leaned into it as a way to elevate what has already been success now. And so I'm hyped for you, brother.

Thanks, man. That's very that's very nice. You just say that that means a lot. And I liked the way you put it. It's or the way your friend put it. You're taking up too much space if you're not on the edge, so that's very cool. Yeah, yeah.

Tom has been a damn pleasure getting to kick it in the diner with you my Yeah,

this has been great. My clothes. You're gonna smell like potatoes and oil for 10 hours.

And you're welcome. That leads us to our next sponsor. Oil canola oil. downy. So, Brother, let people know where they can find you. Where can they find the wolves of Glendale? And just let people know how they can experience some of your hysterical illness.

Yeah, you can find me across socials Tiktok instagram, twitter at Tom that govern 27. You can find the wolves at Glendale on Instagram at wolves of Glendale. We have to post because again, we are in our infancy. But stay tuned. We'll be posting about shows we're playing all over LA and we'll do an East Coast run hopefully if things pan out August September, so keep an eye out for that.

I love it, man. I love it. Brother. So cool. Getting to know you better. I appreciate you man. We had some real fun similarities. Yeah. And this was this was special. Like, like I knew it would be man. Thank

you. Yeah, I did. Thank you so much for having me on. You're a great dude. And I just love love your energy. And this is very cool. I really appreciate you having me.

Let's go. Let's go. Y'all that was my time with my man Tom McGovern from the wolves of Glendale. Yeah, check this band out. I know I gotta check this band out. But I love the journey that he talked about this idea that you know, someone said it sounds like it's gonna be hard or nobody makes it if you do that and then you realize there's just something burning inside of it. It's like no, this is what I got to do. What voices are you pushing down because you think it's what you're supposed to do or there's not going to be success or it's not traditional? You know? What are the some of those voices that you can allow to sing? Start a hobby start a side hustle start something like that you don't just quit your job and and tell your family that's it we're getting in an RV but if you want to do that do it too. But either way it was just so cool. Listen to Tom and I love that he's he's fighting against the stream. A good quote that's very famous that I did not say and I don't know who did, but it's only dead fish go with the flow. And I love that Tom is out here going against the flow and using his brilliance to make other people smile. It's just dope. Thank you so much for hanging out with Tom and I am the diner and next time my friends you're faced with an awkward small talk conversation. Do my favor do me Do me a favor. Punch it in the face by asking better questions. I appreciate you all have a wonderful day take care.