Ayahuasca and Grief Research

Welcome back to the doctor body mind soul podcast. My name is Dr. Jude. And this is a podcast, which explores how we can integrate modern medicine and alternative therapies to help you get the holistic health care that you deserve. I will be speaking to healers and seekers, researchers and authors who will share their experiences and the evidence to help guide us all to Holistic Health. Let's do this. Debora, I really admire even the attempt of Western scientists taking on a subject like I Alaska, because having experienced it myself actually at the center that you're doing the study on, I know how difficult it can be to describe the experience from a personal level, let alone describe that in a way that is required for the community of scientists to broach and understand you're at the Institute of ethnic ethnobotanical research in Spain. And you must be one of the very few scientists which are trying to really describe using the scientific method, exactly the process of how this actually does work to make us feel more happy, as you say, and also help us with certain psychological complaints that so many of us in the western world are experiencing right now. Now, you've published two papers, and I understand you've got many more in the works, which is really exciting. And I wanted to go through these papers, what you've found, how you're doing the research itself, and, and maybe give us some sneak peeks as to what we can expect to come. So tell us the first study is the study in the impact of Ayahuasca on our psychological well being. And it's shown that even a year later, the majority of the participants have an improved sense of well being after the use of ayahuasca.

Yes, well, when we designed the study, we weren't we were focused on the potential the therapeutic potential of Ayahuasca of the plant. So, we connect with the temple of the way of life that is the center in the in the middle of of the rainforest also in the near Iquitos, where they use a iOS combat on the ship people traditional context. So there are five shipping masters working not only was I was covered with all the plant diets, not that are like their spirit Alliance allies not to, to heal the people No. So when we designed the study, we didn't know about all this indigenous framework and technology that they use. So, we were focused on the potential of ayahuasca, but as this is an observational study, we cannot do How to say we cannot know exactly the effects that we observe alone time are only because they participants drank Ayahuasca or between or because all the different variables that are in their natural settings, you know, so, what we have observed is that in in people who is grieving, a loved one, for for the death of a loved one, after returning from the temple 50 days later, there's a grief center marsali is completely is much better, not as significant significantly decrease, now, after after going to the temple and after three six and 12 months later, the symptomatology is stable, no. So, they they are doing well now with with with a wave and we have observed the same results on a sample that has that is dealing with depression. Another that is dealing with anxiety and other than that these dealing with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder part is out a population that exceeds the cutoff to be considered as a clinical clinical depression or anxiety, you know, so it's not people who say, I'm a little bit depressed, no, it's people who are which their symptoms are like clinically relevant, you know. So, this public aid paper is not published yet because we are now doing their regression model analysis to see what what is happening there. But we observe the same the same decrease in the pathological symptomatology that we saw in the grief probe. So, we asked ourselves, how is that possible that there was cow or this additional traditional medicine is doing so, well with a big spectrum of problems known and we know that all these problems that we are seeing are linked to that emotional regulation now, that is the, how you say the inability to, to regulate well our emotions, no. So, what we did at the beginning when we designed this study is to assess the the ethics of two mediators that are the acceptance acceptances is like the crusade

is like to accept our problems, our grief or our symptomatology in order to, to not continue avoiding the challenges of our life, you know, one is this and another one is called detachment that is more focused on on the foot diffusion or that is like, not identify with my thoughts and emotions is something that comes from a meditation lab from the, the, from the ASEAN traditions, and what we, we know, that these mediators are very important in many disorders, you know, these disorders are transversal to too many pathological disorders. So, what we saw is that, ayahuasca and this traditional medicine that underlies, you know, that the use of Ayahuasca in the developed a way of life, what is doing is to promote these, these mediators. So, these mediators can affect directly to many different than diagnosis.

Okay, let me just slow this down, because I think you said a few really important things. So, it's really interesting that you've identified these two processes, one of them is acceptance, and one of them is detachment. And these being key stay stages are a key skills we need in order to regulate our emotions and be able to face our lives by Alaska is giving us it's allowing us to accept ourselves and detach over it over attached to our identity,

guess our identity when our identity is like I am a bad person, you know, that this this is like a thought no or thought that can we ruminate that in that inner depressive person, you know, so, that was kind of allows you to detach from this kind of abuse of of yourself no until maybe even defy with something bigger. But these are two mediators that we decided to observe before knowing anything, you know, but now, after reading many reports of the participants that have been there in the temple, I can see many other different mediators that can be there many of them that are not even identified in the in the scientific literature, yet, no, I can see it perfectly in brief. So now with these reports, what we have we have is that as a lot of a lot of data and not to, to to create new scales, you know, to to, to test no In all the possible possible mediators making meaning, for example, is one that is really important. And this is, this is welcome to conceptualizing the scientific literature on how to say cognitive read respiratory knowledge to change the way that we think about the wall or about ourselves, no, these are just some of many of them that we, that we really see.

So, as you're doing the research, you're you're identifying themes that seem to be really coming through people's experience. And you're finding ways on how to conceptualize and describe these themes. So that we are able to essentially even learn more about the process of grief grief, for example, and what is important for us to do during this time to help us along this process, and perhaps what actually keeps us stuck in suffering.

So, for example, in grief, what we say no, that is the, that the, the techniques that we use in psychotherapy, one of the best techniques that is used for grief, like the chair work, you know, it's a suggested technique, but has been incorporated in many other models as a constructivist model. Even a behavioral therapy model, you know, that is this technique to put a chair next to the participant chair, and to have a conversation between the therapist, the participant and the deceased in order to to promote a secure bone of connection between the disease and the participant. Because we know that, even if they're the people, your father or your mother die, that this doesn't mean that you are going to go in to you are not going to be connected with them after data and this is not real, no, your your father always will be your primary is that or not? No. So to promote our own or connection and secure point of connection is very typical to use the chair work technique, what we see on the DFS vasca is that people connect with the resist in so deeper level, that the disease is part of themselves, you know, so it's not that we have to put the receipts outside to have this conversation, not escape. Now, the Grievers they were they were reverse, identified in inability to play with the disease because they feel inside because they had to experience that they are now inside of them and they are really deep connectedness. So these are different mediators and different experience known that we observed that is possible with Ayahuasca.

Okay, so just for anyone who's listening, because I got confused when you're seeing disease, it's deceased. So actually, so the what so. So what you're observed from observing these participants, particularly when you are looking at those who were bereaved, was that they they had a deep connection to those who they'd lost. And the medicine allowed them to connect with the deceased in a profound way, which may I'm hearing may have been really important in the leaving some of their brief bereavement symptoms is that is that have I got that right?

Yes, yes, at the end. A great process is when you are connected with the disease, how is it how is received but this bond of connection is made of suffering, you know? And it's very difficult to reconnect with them again. We love based on love, you know, that this connection when you have the memories of your of your father who died or your child, this causes grief and pain, you know, and it's very difficult to when you think of them you feel loved and feel that they are a part of yourself and they do feel connected, not you You don't feel the lack of, you know,

oh, that's so beautiful, I can really understand actually now what you're seeing around the role of iOS get and potentially hypothesizing what it is that gives you when you're grieving. And I'm really hearing that once you've lost someone so dear to you, when they, when you think of them, after they've died, you are sometimes overcome with the feeling of loss first. So when you're reconnecting with them, even in your mind, and in the realm of imagination, it brings with, with with it, such a sense of loss, that you are thrown back into suffering, and into the grief, but iOS that, from what you have observed, allows you to reconnect with the deceased without the overwhelming feeling of loss taking over, but actually it allows you to feel the love that you have, and allowing you to feel super connected to them that you can move forward in your life knowing that they are always part of you. And it sounds like concepts like that, that you are describing through these observations are giving you a window into the importance of certain psychological or emotional processes that can be taken perhaps out with the concepts of Ayahuasca perhaps in psychological ways of working, but knowing that these concepts can provide such relief, it can really I guess, help different models that are supporting people through this process, to move through whether or not they wanted to use plant medicine,

that's something that's okay. What we, what we see is that the attachment that that we have with our PCs with our loved ones, is is really important know that different types of attachment know, maybe they're secure attachments, that it makes you to feel comfortable, but there are also anxious attachments, when when you think or what you the internal representation of the disease is a painful, you know, for example, if you lost your child, and you will have always the memory of the these last time where you were seen or what in suffering or in a very difficult memory, no, you connect with this internal representation with this with him through that representation, and this makes you to have a bone of connection that is answers not at all while Why is he suffering, nobody's in your in inside yourself? No. So, what we see is that many of them have the experience to feel the presence or the essence or the receipt and their data. So there was and they see them, okay, they see them very, very good, you know, so, after that experience, they are not thinking of them as the last time that they see in the bad moment, you know, or suffering or whatever, now they see them very good, you know, so the connection that they establish with them is is secure. No one is love, unless it's good. So, these are some kind of mediators that have been not identified yet in the scientific literature. Because there are no techniques that are lotia allows you to have this kind of experience, to have the sense of presence of the disease. Good, you know, and to be connected with you good. We don't know if it's something that is is outside or inside you know, so we work on their constructivist model in order that the participant can give meaning to their experience in the in the way that they feel more comfortable and have more meaning for them. No, we are the only responsible to give meaning to our life and and are these participants are the ones who have to give meaning to the to their experience. So

now I think what is interesting in the studies that you have done, are sort of breaking down what is happening in the ceremonies themselves. because, as you said before, when you started doing this research, you were very much concentrating on the effects of the medicine itself. And in observing the entire context, you identified another couple of elements that you needed to describe and break down. There were also perhaps very active ingredients in the entire medicinal experience, can you go through what you observed to be important key ingredients within these ceremonies,

with the same this study without knowing how was the sequel ceremonial context, so after reading many, many of the reports of participants more than what hundreds I went, finally to the temple last year, so I had my my own experience where like, I knew a little bit more about how this mastership people works. And for me, it was something that blows my mind, you know, because they are working in something that we don't consider it in our society, not that this all this energetic level, you know, is not considered in medicine, you know, in our medical framework, but probably is, is the same that Chinese medicine is doing with acupuncture and working with a tee, you know, that are focused on this energetic level that we have in our body, you know, so, when I was there, and I had the, the, I felt the experience, that I'm my estrus song nickel for me know, and how this was removing some, some energies that I could perfectly feel in my body, you know, this was something it was another dimension that appear in, in the therapeutic potential of all of that, not only in ayahuasca, you know, but also in the, in the Bo, cultural knowledge that they that they have. No, so this was, like, a very big bias not that we had in our first spray proposal to assess only the effects of Ayahuasca at the beginning, now, we find that they were working with a another dimension that we were not even considering and we didn't even know that exist in this way, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. And, and it is, it's so interesting, and so fascinating to the Western mind. Because it is the energetic body is not considered within our, our framework, as you say, it's not it's not acknowledged, it's not, it's not described, it's not, it's not considered. And so, there's this disconnect, there's this lack of understanding between these paradigms that really stop us from learning about these other paradigms, because there's not the language

and this knowledge, we are losing this they are losing this knowledge, you know, because of the effects of globalization, you know, the difficulty that they had upset that their child's continue learning and working on this, and then the knowledge that these plants are giving to the people No, and, and this is something that is we don't know about that, you know, but they are specialized in this relation with the plants, you know, and the way that they communicate communicate between them no matter who they close and, and what how is the way that they are hearing out I said, Okay, if they are doing this since sentries of years, you know, and they are masters, they are medical doctors, you know, and they are healing their communities in this way, you know, how can we learn about that, you know, how can how can we help them to protect this knowledge in order to not to lose it? No, because it's, it's like when we think about the pyramids of Egypt, now that we see at how can they do it and now we, we are the same but, but this is impossible this way. And now we haven't had the opportunity to, to learn of them not to protect this knowledge to to know a little bit more, more and more that the psychedelic community now that now is growing and growing No, and we have Masters now in many parts of the world know that they are working in a very specific way that they are specialized No. And we have the opportunity to, to, to know and to and to protect this knowledge in order to work consider, because I think that everything that kind of helps, you know, we'll have to embrace it.

And I guess the work that you're doing in validating its impact, I think goes some way in order for such either Tarik knowledge to be valued. And so almost like we have to, in some way, attempt to validate the importance and the impact that this knowledge is actually having on people's lives. So that we actually can have grounds to protect it.

Yes, yes. Well, the World Health Organization have created a special commission of medicine, traditional medicine. And then the definition of medicinal, traditional medicine that they use is that it's not like all the knowledge techniques and practice practices or whatever that even if you understand it or not, you know, they are doing an effect, not only in a disease, but also in the well being of the people, what we can see is, is that there is a political impact, you know, so as this is considered a traditional medicine, people can create clinics in Europe and in the USA, you know, to provide this medicine to the to the others no. So, this is something that that we have to to help promote with, with science, you know, to, to say how how this list here, healers, with their master plans that is iOS covered is also their own data, and their songs and everything. What how can we observe that people with depression with posttraumatic stress disorder, with grief and with anxiety, this is what we want to promote?

Well, I think it's in work that you're doing that we can get more and more confidence in the medical communities to be able to use or at least refer these patients to indigenous healers, through the work that you do is I think it's really important to be that bridge,

yes, the the only thing is that plants like Ayahuasca or other traditional plants, not another community, such videotel or whatever, they are in the list one Escobal in the list one, so, they, they cannot use this kind of of plants in their patients. So, all

regulation as government regulation,

regulate is recognition of how to recognize this medicine as per traditional medicine have to be some kind of scientific evidence and after this record, this data and this recognition has to be some kind of regulation and to to create as close to you know, that the practitioners learn the good practices to do their work, you know, like the brothers that the products that you are using the plants that you are given to the people have some kind of standards that has been planted with with good quality, this is a very big process, you know, and this is difficult to achieve, but we have to work in order that it can be possible now at some point.

Do you see that being possible?

I think so. Yes. I know even that there are beautiful initiatives now like the indigenous medicine conservation fund that is that has been created now to protect them and buy on the clitoral biodiversity of the indigenous communities now on this this is funded from the support and no by the people who believe no in the importance of not losing this knowledge and and recycled work because what they are doing is to empower the indigenous community in order that they they beside know how they want to share this knowledge know whether with with with the owners know between them When we do that, and also, I think that there are different initiatives now from funding from some foundations from big organizations like the World Health Organization, so I think that it will be possible, I hope. So, for example, then the canavese user clubs here in Spain abroad in USA, USA, I'm not sure if it's the same No, but, but here is is legal not to plant your own plants to for merit for for personal use, you know, there is also the religious path more than under the central diamond cane UDB are working on giving otherwise, other people know, in order to connect with with Dima with God, and this is freedom of religions, you know, so there are different paths. And what I, what I can do in my position as scientists is to just to try to collect evidence know, that this can be something helpful in our societies. And I hope that one day we can also do not only pharmacal research on promotion, the pharmacological aspects of, of these master plans or psychedelics, but also in the non pharmacological aspects of how to do it know of the, how to prepare the participants how to, to, to integrate these experiences, how can we, how can we work now, with all those dimensions that we are not considering right now, like, this energetic level in all this. So this is another