Division, Repression, and Collective Trauma in the Nursing Profession | ETS02

Hey everyone, its Sandra Payne here, your host of the end the silence Podcast. I'm here today with my special guest, Katrina Stevenson, who is a registered nurse in Alberta. She's also the founder of the nurse to nurse peer support organization, out of Alberta. And we're joining you today for a special episode, because this is a conversation that Katrina and I have had many times privately, and have, you know, done our best to share it with our community separately, but we wanted to come together today to talk with you about kind of, you know, how do we give it an umbrella term, I, I think it's really boils down to the division in our profession as nurses. And so we're gonna talk about a lot of different things today. And we'll see kind of what comes up. But first of all, to kind of just set the stage is Katrina and I recently, we had partnered on a project that we were doing together to support our peers, other nurses in Canada, and we found ourselves on the the receiving end of some judgment. And myself, specifically, I'll just, you know, I'll own that a name that myself specifically feeling that discrimination, for my personal beliefs. And it kind of it's definitely stirred a lot inside of me, and I know it has for you to Katrina. And so I want to talk about that. But I would like to just, you know, really let you all know, kind of how that impacted me and kind of where I landed, even, and how I have worked my way through it. Because I could think back, you know, years ago, and if something like that situation would have happened to me, you know, where I felt so just oppressed and pushed down and just beaten and abused, and just, you know, like, the weak version of me, I can think back and, and really have a clearer idea of how I would have responded back then, just in complete despair, and it would have eaten me up, it would have landed me, you know, in a boat of severe depression. And I would have turned to all sorts of substances to try to numb that out. And that was my reality years ago, thankfully, and I am so extremely grateful that I am where I am right now in my own healing journey. And so when I take hits like that, which seem to sometimes, you know, come all at once, it was, it definitely hurt. And I'm not going to minimize that I am going to just really stand in the fact that it really hurt. And it shook me, it made me question what I was doing, it made me question who I am, it made me question my beliefs and my values, it made me question. The nursing profession, even more than I already have it made me question are, you know, are the regulatory or the governing kind of bodies that we look to for support, it made me really spiral. But what I am mostly grateful for is that these internal resources and the external support system that I have, that I was able to turn to, and I was able to access to pull myself through it, and to really look at this as an opportunity. I do believe in everything, there is an opportunity. And so even in the shittiest of shit situations, there is something golden for us to mine, and I've been looking for it. And I do think that this is a part of it is really bringing this conversation this, this conversation to just to the forefront without any kind of, you know, veil or shield is just let's talk about it. And let's talk about the impact that it's having. And let's just be real about it. So I'm super, you know, I won't lie. I'm kind of nervous, but also excited to have this conversation. So Katrina, maybe you want to share with us a little bit about how or who you are, and kind of like how this how this has hit you too. Yeah, for sure. Thanks, Senator, for being vulnerable and being here today to talk about this. Because, you know, we'll get into this more, but we're seeing how it's affecting our profession, our culture, our work environment. So yeah. So like you said, we were, you know, partnered on a project together supporting our peers, and we were asked not to do that anymore. And it was because of a belief that, you know, a belief I believe that you had was you were holding and hold and, and I won't speak to that. That's your part and, but I was also there and I was right beside you, as your peer and I witnessed all of it. And I witnessed how oppressive it was, it brought me back to the days of being a frontline nurse. And, you know, really speaking to the, you know, the supports, we didn't have, how we were struggling, how I was struggling, and just being told that I was exaggerating, that was one instance out of many. And so that systemic kind of oppression, it felt it felt really gross, to tell you the truth, and I witnessed how you were being judged how you were being discriminated against. Yeah, so. And the other part I was witnessing was, how there was so much, it was a lot, it was so harmful, we didn't have a voice, we were, you know, told that that was it. And we didn't even, you know, we asked if we could appeal what was happening, no. And here, we are two nurses that really are passionate about caring for and supporting our peers, because of our own lived experience of, you know, our own occupational or operational stress injuries, you know, traumatic stress injuries that we had to walk through, and, you know, it, it brought up a lot of wounds, you know, I talk about the window of tolerance, I was dysregulated, like, no one's business, and what was neat about it, in the sense of, like, the things that we go through, we walk through and can walk through the other side is that, you know, I was able to take those tools that I had, I've learned over the years and, and put it towards that and because my I could, you know, look and see the lens, from the lens, I was coming from, you know, the trauma informed harm reduction lens that I walk a lot through, you know, I was able to see, and from what I hear from peers on a regular basis, is I was able to see that these two opposing views that are in within our profession, that have really been highlighted since COVID. came about, we're harming them now harming us as two nurses trying to do the work in trying to support our peers. And so, you know, that highlighted a problem for for me, so that, yeah, yeah, thank you. And, um, you know, I'm just going to celebrate you to just as I celebrate myself, really also just, I think it's, it's something that we owe to ourselves, it's just to really acknowledge and appreciate how far we've come in our own personal journeys to, to recognize, you know, to recognize when you are outside of that window of tolerance, and I, you know, I do I love the visual because it just allows us to see like, Oh my God, here I am, and, and then having access to these tools, which is, you know, it's it's so much a part of what we're doing, right, like, we've recognized our own injury, our own, you know, despair, our own mock that we have been through, and we've, you know, we've figured out some tools to get us out. And we, we have proven it to ourselves over and over again, that this shit works. And we want to get we want to give it to everybody. We're like, Yeah, come on, like, this is not hopeless, this you're not helpless. All you have to do is just learn and practice, and then rinse and repeat. And just do it over and over and over. Because there's never going to be a shortage of challenges in life. Right? So it's just, you know, how are we going to respond to them, is what determines our state really, and how we, how we move forward with our life. And, you know, when I see you looking at the same things, and I just, I mean, I and I hold so much gratitude for you as well for standing with me in that and, and for standing up for me too. Because I, you know, anybody that knows me knows I'm a very emotional person. And so, definitely when I was feeling extremely triggered, and extremely dysregulated, you know, my tears come and it can be very difficult for me to articulate during those moments. And so I just, I had so much appreciation for you then and still do just for standing with me. But you know, I want to talk a little bit more I think about the impact, right? This is important. We know, the issue. You know, we've been divided on a lot of different issues in healthcare over the years, right? Like, this is not, this is not a new thing that we don't all agree, right. We've, I mean, we've worked in nursing you you know, you and I the same kind of roughly around the same amount of years and dealing with the same kind of stuff like we don't always agree. Some people believe this should happen. Some people believe this should happen. Some people are told this should happen even though they're like I don't think that's the right thing. It's it's all the time, right. But right now, we are like standing on the edge. And we have been pushed to this edge and these beliefs about COVID about vaccines, about maths about you know schooling about the children about like there's so much that's kind of like swirling in the storm. And really pushing people to the edge. And the edge is what I want to talk about. Because the edge is where I see people standing every single day and YouTube, and doing this work working with supporting nurses who are kind of at that point, it is extremely difficult work. One that I wouldn't trade for anything, but at the same time, it's important that we talk about it, because there are lots of nurses out there who are really struggling hard. And so I'm curious, you know, maybe you want to kind of kick this off and talk about what your experience has been, and what you've noticed. And as far as the impact that this division, and this separation of our, you know, in our nursing culture has, has created. Yeah, for sure. Sandra, um, it's, uh, yeah, it brings up a lot of even, it brings up fear, even talk like that, we're here talking about this, like, in me, and I'm recognizing that and I'm like, No, but this needs to be talked about is what my other part of my thought processes, and and, you know, at, from this position that I'm in, where I support nurses, and I hear from them, because one of the biggest things that I bring I in, you know, our nurse to nurse peer circles is that we build a really safe container. And, you know, so one on one people will come to me and the nurses will come to me and speak to me about what's happening to them. So we know that there's been mandates, we know that there are nurses that, you know, on that spectrum of COVID, you know, we're all over the place, right? But we know, from what's happening in the world, that if you speak to it, then all of a sudden, you're given a label, you're labeled. And, you know, you so it's just really silenced us even more than what we were before. Correct, you know, like, so I have nurses approaching me saying things like I am trying to get, you know, an exemption, you know, when we were trying to get the exemptions for vaccines, and my doctor won't give it to me, for instance, and then you know, so you know, my line was posted at work. And they found out, it was me, my colleagues being they, and this nurse was targeted. She was told, quote, unquote, I hope you get COVID-19 and die. So, you know, here we are, we have had your work short staffed for years, I can't even remember my my grandma, you know, whose past now was speaking to that, you know, so here we are, we're, we're, we're in a mental health crisis, the healthcare system has been broken, as broken before now COVID has totally annihilated it. And we're just trying to keep it together. And, you know, then we're told we have to put something in our body. And, you know, we're not given a choice. And there's lots to that. And and this is what, in one instance. Now, there's many that, you know, this is an extreme one, that a nurse was told, in distress and in crisis, already dealing with a mental health injury, calls me and says, This is what just happened to me. So we see trauma, continuously, and then we are attacking each other because we're not supported in this support environment, in in the world to even have an opinion. Because if we do, we might be attacked, harassed, and, you know, so think about that for a second. You're at work, and someone comes up to you that you've worked with for years. And they've said that, so but then I want to flip it a little bit. What about that nurse that said that? What kind of place do you have to be in in order to say that to someone you've worked with for years? How much fear pain suffering, so so much pain and suffering in that whole situation is just not the one person that was attacked? It's this other person as well. And then like, what is going on? To me that is just so much pain, so much suffering, trauma responses in there, like from, you know, my years of working with folks with trauma and then my own trauma like it just it just shines that you know. So here we are this collective trauma happening. And you know, like that's why Sandra and I wanted to come on and speak because I we have to talk about it. We do we need to Do not have to, we need to, in order to heal from this, we need to talk about it and figure out what we're going to do. You know, and there's not just one perfect solution, there's too many things, but we need to at least speak to what's happening. And in the frontlines as we're, you know, working with nurses and on, you know, I'm working frontline and back at work and seeing, like, I didn't work through COVID. But now I'm seeing the after effects. So here I was working before COVID was injured, heal throughout, coming back to work in the last few months. And this is, you know, it's just a horrible thing I'm seeing and, and then what I witnessed with you, Sandra, and that's why I think we need to stand by each other, no matter what our points of view are. And that, you know, this, like, ask why, like, just be human, be kind, compassionate. And if we can't then ask why, why can't I? Why did I attack her? And why do I feel this? And, you know, this is this is the mental health crisis? Yeah, I want to talk even more about, you know, what happens, because, you know, you and I have a similar understanding and a pretty strong understanding as well of like, what what happens when we're when we're triggered, and when some of those old wounds are, you know, picked, open. And when we talk about trauma, like, you know, there's so many different degrees, and some people may be listening and think, Well, I haven't experienced trauma, I haven't, you know, I don't have any kind of trauma response, but I'm gonna just put that to bed, because every single one of us has a trauma response, every single one of us has experienced some form of trauma, I would be way I'd be willing to wager that like that every single human being has probably experienced some form of trauma in their life. And maybe it's not, you know, where you, you know, you're looking after domestic violence, patient and the partners in the room, and he's threatening, and he's threatening you, or you've been attacked by a patient, or you've been attacked in your, you know, in your personal environment in your community, or you've been raped, or you've been a part of war or something, you know, huge like that in an abusive relationship. It doesn't always have to be these big things that we think of. It's the actually the smaller ones over time, like these, you know, death by 1000. paper cuts, I believe they say where it just over time, it creates such a huge wound. And what happens to us when we are triggered, when somebody says, or does something to us, that makes us feel afraid. And when we're afraid, we don't even know our nervous system is just hijacked. And it goes right into its response, right? It's doing all of its cascade of everything that it has to do to keep you safe. Even if the threat is not legit. Like, you know, your life is not endangered, you know, everything's going to be fine. But your body responds as if you're being chased by somebody with a knife. And so when our body responds like that, it, it's somewhat out of our control at that point, but we can learn how to control it. And I do think actually, that majority of nurses are in trauma response. As soon as we walk in the door, particularly right now. You know, I have some nurses in my program who work on COVID units. And by the moment from the moment they wake up in the morning, they feel it, they feel the adrenaline in their body, they feel their heart racing, they're nervous, they're scared, they're worrying about what's going to happen when they walk in there. And they you know, that living in that kind of fear response where your nervous system is just constantly on it's exhausting. First of all, and we're very easily triggered, right? Like you come home your kid says one thing to you and you're you explode or your manager says something or a patient says something or a colleague and so when we're afraid and we all have different fears, which I think is also important to talk about. It's not that like people who are against mandates and against all these other you know, I don't want to label people either because that's creating a judgment on them and we really have no idea these each individual's personal situation. So we should really, you know, as as easy as it is to say to stop judging everyone because we all do it we judge I mean, it just happens, but where was I going with that thought is I might need to edit this. I was going thought um anyways, I don't know where I was Kretschmann judgment labeling? Yeah, yeah. Well, I didn't want to I didn't want to label people. As far as like anti mandates or anti vaccine, or whatever it doesn't, it doesn't really matter what your belief is, what your stance is, what your values are. I mean, it matters to you as an individual, it probably matters to your family as far as like how cohesive you are and aligned. But as far as in our workplace, it shouldn't matter. Because really, what I'm talking about here is the fear response. And no matter what you believe, we all are afraid of something. Like we all have something that is scary, that's happening to us right now. Right? I mean, some we can label it all, we can name it all, all the different fears that people who are for mandates and all the different fears of the people who are against mandates, we can put them into two categories and try to understand their fear. But the reality is, is that every single one of us is feeling some amount of fear. And that's where we get in, we enter into this place of protective mode, right, we all of our, all of our walls, all of our barriers are guards that are been, you know, set up inside of us to keep us safe, they're, they're activated, when we feel afraid, they're activated. And so then we we get thrown into these patterns of thought patterns of behavior in order to try and protect ourselves. And it's to varying degrees, of course, right, you know, people who are doing their, their self healing, and they're, they're working through their trauma, and they're finding these new perspectives. And they're able to, you know, resume control, when they are triggered, those people have, they still have fear, they're still triggered, but they're able to choose their response, they're able to say, you know, what, instead, I'm not gonna lash out at you, I'm going to just, you know, be with what I'm experiencing, and you know, maybe come at it with a different response. But people who are in this constant state of fight and flight, and they're just, they're in panic fear mode, as soon as they get triggered. Sometimes we just get sucked in. And we don't even know what our response is, you know, I'm thinking about this nurse, you're talking about who said that to her colleague, and like, you know, what must have happened to her to be triggered? To feel like that was some way to make her feel safe, right? In some way. It's, it seems all like totally fucked up and backward. But it's, it's what are, it's like, it's an innate natural thing that we do, right to try to keep ourselves safe. We have these words, we have these thoughts, we have these patterns of behavior. So trauma. Yeah, that's trauma. Exactly. I don't know if you want to speak any more to that. If I didn't lose everybody in my in my confused analogies, but yeah, no, that was good. Sandra. No, that was really good. It, it just kind of speaks to like the behavior, you know, the behavior around trauma, and understanding it. And I think it's just really, how do we educate? You know, and this is you and I trained to take care, right? This we're nurses, it's, well, you know, we are trained where moms, where we care about what's happening, right? And that's why we're here. And it's like, how do we educate and help understand what's happening to us, and our colleagues and our peers, and the people we care about in our world? Right. And I think it's really from that trauma informed lens. And it's just, you know, remembering that we have to keep our biases in check. And, and, you know, we need to get past what has happened here, and what is happening to us, and how do we do that by like, somehow connecting again, in some shape or form? And, you know, and finding safety, like, how are we going to find safety? And, you know, is that and this is not going to be? It's not going to be easy process? And I'm not saying that everyone has trauma, you can have trauma and still be triggered, or, I mean, you can you don't have a trauma, injury, per se, but you can be triggered, you know, in in situations, but it's like, how do we sin as a, as a culture of nurses? Yeah, and what's happening in our workplaces and our many different environments, you know, walk forward, when we know that we're so short staffed our nervous system is going to be just, there's, we never have a time to shut off. Right. So it's like how do we take care of our nervous systems, our emotional and our mental health in an environment that's so sick? Yeah. Yeah, that's it. That's like the question. That is the question. And I think when I bring up you know, the, the commonality of the fact that we are all experiencing some form of fear is to in some way also to draw the connection between what we can you know, just say as our like our shared humanity, right, we are all different. Diversity is The key elements of humanity, we're all different, we're all experiencing life different. We're all going through our own hoops and hurdles and challenges. We all have different beliefs and values. We all stand on our own island of what's important to us. And we're all afraid of different things. But that's what makes us unique. And that's what makes us so amazing here is that we are all different. And if we could remember that, right, and, and start to look at each other, from that lens of trying to see that this is another human being, this is another human being who is trying her best or his best to figure this life out. And they're got, we're all working with the guidebook that we received. Right. And, as messed up, as many of those guidebooks are, as far as like, you know, receiving influence from all the different sources we've had, you know, we can go down lots of different trails with that conversation, but I'm talking more about like the guide book of what's true for you. And, and really listening to that, and, and recognizing each other, and our connection are undeniable connection, because you can't deny it, you sit in the same room with somebody, and you have conversation with somebody, and you learn about their life, there is a connection there is Spark, its energy between us, we cannot deny that connection. But fear gets in our way of seeing it right. And so I do think that it's so it is it is critical, I agree with you that we find a way to experience safety. And that is our way back to that remembering, of our common shared connection, humanity, and compassion for each other for each other's unique lives and fears and everything like just, you know, I think of myself, and how, you know, everyday I'm triggered honestly, any day I leave my home, or I'm with clients or doing you know, work on social media or anything, I'm triggered by something like it happens all the time. We're just, it's these emotional responses that happen inside of us. And, but it takes a real reframe, and a capacity to sit in control, to be able to say, like, you know, my response to this instead is going to be compassion for that person. My response to this, you know, as I've talked about, like care, Bear Stare, right? That's, that's how I teach my kids that too. It's like, because they get triggered, I can see them, right, they're out, they're angry about something, or they say, can we go to this place, and we're like, well, we can't go there, and that they're triggered, then they're pissed off, and then they're rude to their brothers. And, you know, and I'm just like, I try to reframe it into that lens for them is like, you know, care, Bear Stare, like, let's try to find love and compassion for the situation, you know, for, for everybody who's afraid. And I think that's, you know, a part of there's two pieces, I think, that are really essential in us moving forward and for finding healing as a culture and nursing, but like, even beyond, and the safety is one and I want to talk about that in just one second. And then compassion, compassion is the other. And I want to specifically talk about safety just for a second, because I recognized in my reflections, after everything that happened was that, by me, making some of my beliefs more public, I triggered people and I, my actions made other people feel unsafe. And that crushes me, because, you know, and just having worked with me, that creating a safe space is, it's my foundation. It's how I do my work. It's how I do my work well, and it's how everything that I do in my work works is because you have to create safety, nobody will drop their guard, nobody will be authentic, completely authentic, unless they feel safe, and that they can trust. And so by me making some of my beliefs public, it drew a line for people and said, Oh, she's not safe. I can't come to her. But I want if that's the case, if that's how it made for you feel and you're listening, I want you to know that. You know that I'm sorry, first of all that that's how it made you feel, because I know what that feels like. And I know what guards feel like and I know how you know what your body responds in when when you get armored up and you're like, holy shit, I you know, I was vulnerable. I thought that person was safe and they're not safe. And also to you know, speak to that part of you that part deep inside of you that knew beforehand that I was. Because that hasn't changed. Just because I believe something that maybe is different than you, it doesn't change what you saw or what you felt before. Because I really, you know, every single day I sit with people who hold all sorts of different beliefs from me. And it's one of the gifts of doing this work, or I wouldn't say the gift is one of the gifts that I have, and I know you have, and I know many others have have, in order to do this work is that we can table what we believe and sit and hold space for you. It's not about me, it's not about, you know, what my family believes, or what side of the fence we stand on, it's about being with each other. And that's why this work has been so effective. It's because we're able to be vulnerable with each other, we're able to talk about our fear and our shame and all of those things, and put that stuff, you know, like I say, drop our guard, or drop our armor so that we can have that authentic connection. And what I realized is that by being public with, you know, with something is that people armored up, they were like, who she's not safe, I have to put up my guard with her. And, you know, I know that my you know, just me acknowledging that and feeling compassion for the pain that that created for people, as well as an understanding and, but also an acceptance that if that's if that's where you land, then that's, that's where you land. But if you want to try and make your way back to that place before that felt I was safe, and felt I was somebody that you could trust, I'm willing to work through that with you. But I'm also okay, if it's not, because I know that there are a lot of other people here who can deliver the same kind of offering that will maybe create a different sense of safety for you. And just one more note on that Katrina is that, although I know that it created a sense of insecurity, and and unsafety, if that's a word, in some, in others, it created a new sense of safety. Because there are also a lot of people who are really shut down in their voices. In nursing, that's pretty global. But even more so as you talked about in the beginning, right of this division, and how we're just we're unable to speak about what is true for us. And there are a lot of people who feel very isolated and very alone in what they believe. And so, yes, by being public, it created a lot, it created a freakin Tidal Storm of stuff, but it also allowed some of those people to see that there was a safe place for them and their truth. And so you know, and for that, I have a lot of gratitude, because so it's, it's really, it's a very difficult place where i, where i stand right now. But I, as always, I just want to try and be real, and acknowledge the impact of my actions. And to come to that place where I'm, you know, I'm seeing the impact and I have nothing but love and understanding and compassion for the people that feel harmed. And for myself, that feels harmed as well. And, and gratitude for the people who now see a bit of a flame of hope that there is you know, that there is support out there that you know, wouldn't be biased that would you know, that is open to listening to their, their point of view their beliefs. So anyways, I could ramble on and on, if you have anything you want to compare narrator for that's beautiful, Sandra, and this is why I love you so much is just how real you are and brave and, and you just speak your truth. So, you know, what you what you see is what you get, always with you. So I that's why I'm so grateful for the human that you are and the work that you do. And, and you know this, what this brings up for me is, is, you know, my background in nursing is harm reduction. And, you know, I've always I try my best to walk with that trauma lens, right, that trauma sensitive lens. And, you know, I, I'm going to come back to that all the time. Because I think as humans, we, you know, we need to provide and as nurses, you know, we're taught this respect and dignity. And and, you know, then compassion and understanding and then the no judgement. You know, we're not going to judge you because of your actions or, you know, and we need to, you know, you and I have walked different paths and drowned right like we have and, and I love you just the same and, and I always will and people around me that that have decided, you know, whatever their decisions are. I'm gonna I'm not gonna drop them for who They I know in their heart who they are, and, and it's just looking at a person and, and just, you know, really, you know, that human aspect, we just, we need to be real and be ourselves again and find ourselves again, because we've been told and controlled. And, and, you know, there is a sense of safety and being controlled in a pandemic. And you know, some of that control is going away. So it's like, again, I'm going to bring it back to that safety, how do we find safety? I think we just need to be authentic, real and compassionate with each other and know not not judging. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I would add on to that, that we need to surround ourselves with people and community that makes us feel safe. And I know that's, you know, the work you do. And it's definitely the work I do as well. And, you know, there are other people though, there are lots of other peer networks, coaches, there's, I mean, there is, there's lots out there, it's more than I ever knew, anyways, like, you know, going through everything that I went through when I was nursing. I didn't, I didn't know there was anything at that point. And maybe more has come out in the last couple years. But But definitely, there is a ton of resources out there if you just start looking for them. And I know that Katrina and I, you know, I'll I'll let you speak to what you do. But, and I, I'm sure the listeners have a sense of it anyways. But we, we pride ourselves on creating these safe environments for people because we know that and let's just, you know, narrow it on nursing is that nursing is not a safe place. It's not our healthcare system is not a safe place, as you've said, it's a sick place, and, and a traumatized place, and it traumatizes us and makes us sick. And it's not safe to speak your truth, whatever that is, it's not safe. And even if we could table all the COVID stuff like before that it was not safe, it was not safe to talk about your burnout, or your moral distress, or your pain or your trauma, or your you know, your mental health, your emotional health, it was not safe to talk about those things. And that's where the podcast started with. And definitely the work that I that I do. And I know you too. And it's just, you know, everything has been kind of clouded with this COVID. And it's like, if we could just tease that part out, and come back to like, where we were before, because these problems were all here. Then before, I mean, and they're still here now. And they've just been made worse, I think. And that's where I talked about, like, we were being pushed to the edge. And so, you know, the problem was like this mounting, like simmering pot, like just ready to explode. And then we added in COVID. And it's like, like, everything's just come and it didn't need to probably, you know, as far as like, where we need to go with our system and make the changes that need to happen. Sometimes things need to really explode before they can be changed. But just to circle back to what I was starting to talk about as I went off on another tangent there, but really like, the work that I'll just speak to what I do, and then I'll let you share but you know, holding space, really, for nurses, I mean, I, I became trained as a coach, because I knew that I wanted to meet people in a much more holistic way, I wanted to be able to support people with not just their physical symptoms, or their mental symptoms, I wanted to treat people and the way that they deserve to be treated, and I wanted to be able to look at people the way that they deserve to be looked at and to start, you know, looking at all the different parts of us and how they work together, how they're working for us or working against us, and try to tease those things out and offer people healing and a big part of my ability to do that is you know, is creating safety and creating trust. And, and I realized that I've you know, taken a bit of an axe to that for some people. But, you know, I can't undo that it's done and where I land right now is that I plan to just continue doing this work. There are so many nurses out there. And you know, like I said, we'll just keep it within nursing because if we start going anywhere beyond it's it's it's suffering everywhere, but in just within nursing, there's so much suffering and it is my my my passion and and a huge part of my purpose, I believe here in this life to support people In this way, and just to really allow them to, to drop their guard to be real, you know, I've wagered before that I think the cure for all of, you know, human suffering is authentic connection. And I, you know, I stand behind that, because I see what it does when people can be vulnerable and talk about what's really happening and own their truth and have it not just not judged and criticized, but just held and said, like, yeah, I see you. Yeah, I feel that that must be you know, I can I can understand what you're going through or whatever is offered back empathy, and just being there with people. So I mean, of course, I, you know, I pull from all the knowledge and the skills and the training and everything that I've done in the program that I run, but at the at the very essence of it, that's what it is, it's just creating that safe, trusting place for people to share their pain and their suffering and be held in it. Versus judged, because that's what happens in nursing and in the world. Right, we're judge look at the whole stir of this conversation is judgment. So yeah, and I'll like I'll like, like I said, I'll let you talk about what you do. So yeah, I know, the foundation is essentially the same for sure. So I know, when I came to you, and we first met Sandra, it was really scary thing to talk about what had happened to me and my nursing and you just made it like your podcast when I spoke on there. And you just you you did you, you gave me a safe container and, and really the soil we all need. So I just want to validate that for you. And that that is always been the place that you bring for me. And again, with nurse to nurse we nurse to nurse peer support came out of my my own lived experience of not just not just my injury of PTSD and other associated traits that came along with it. But was also my, my personal lived experience. And then all the years of working as a nurse in the front lines and, and learning what you know, in mental health and with folks with substance use disorders and, and, you know, with trauma and how to approach people that have had those things happen to them, because they can smile, they can smell BS from a mile away, you know, it's to me, it's so you cannot No, you have to be who you are and real and kind and not threatening in any way. Because otherwise walls will go up and you won't get anywhere and there will not be any healing happening. So, you know, for me, nurse to nurse came because I saw a nurse to nurse peer support the peer support piece, I worked with peers that, you know, peer support workers that were, you know, people that use drugs, I were to people that use needles in, you know, lives homeless, in homeless, like without a home. And I saw how, as a nurse, if I approached someone that was, you know, using drugs, and maybe in a psychosis and you know, they didn't know my story, you know, we're taught that we're not supposed to be authentic and tell her story as a nurse. But if I went with a peer, that had that same experience in a place of recovery, they were it was a beautiful just a beautiful connection that happened and, and it supported them coming into, you know, into care, really, it broke that barrier. So all those things that I learned doing that work with peer support workers, and then you know, my husband, being a firefighter, and then working with police that had peer support and, and EMS, you know, in the city I work in have peer support. I was like, why aren't we doing this? You know, I mean, I meet nurses that are homeless, and, and struggling with mental health and substance use disorders. I know nurses that have died by suicide and have died by overdose So and are actively using substances so we need to do something different. So nurse or nurse came to be that way like so every single thing that I have lived and worked and transfers very well because it's just being you know, respectful and kind and non judgmental. And those are like you know, the concepts of harm reduction and concepts of trauma informed, you know, being and and then that peer support pieces is really Hey, I recognize you, I see you I feel the same, you know, like, yeah, validation, I have been through that. And then it's always that hope peace, because, you know, here I am, in a sense a place of recovery. And you can do it too, I believe in you. You know, so, there's synergy that that foundation that's there. And that's really the work we do. It could be one to one, it's pure circles, you know, a peer, a peer to peer wellness program. And it's, it's, you know, essentially the same work you do, Sandra, and just, you know, but it really, you know, again, I'm going to circle around, it's, it's building that, that safety, that container, and, and being real, and accepting each other, with whatever beliefs we have. And that is one thing we bring into our circles, there's so much, you know, discourse around, you know, where you fall on that belief system of COVID. And, and, you know, then there's all those other people that are in the in between them aren't talking or, you know, aren't getting support, because they're so fearful, and they're not sure what, you know, what, you know, your belief might be in? Are you going to drop me as a friend because, or see me differently? Are you going to judge me and discriminate against me? Because I, I want to speak my truth. You know, so it's like, how do we walk together going forward? Yeah, you know, to build that safety. I think, like, as you were explaining that, like, I just, I mean, I had, like the vision in my mind of this, like a group of people. And you're right, there is like this, the larger group who are afraid to speak, because there is so much judgment, which just, you know, circles us way back to us to what, what's stimulated us to have this opportunity for this conversation is just the fear of, you know, the fear, and the shame and the anxiety and all of it, what wrapped up into, into what we're going through. And, you know, I wonder if we could just leave people with, of course, I'll you know, in the show notes of, of the of the episode, I'll have all of our links, so people can find us, they can read about what we do in more detail, and they can connect with us. And I strongly encourage everyone who's listening to reach out to, to both of us, or one of us, who, whoever you like, and, you know, we all need somebody in our corner. It's just, I can't, I can't imagine going through everything that I have gone through in my own healing journey. And I'm sure you would say the same without having a support team like it, it just, it's not that we can't, I mean, we could all Google everything and find all the tools and the resources. Like it's not like we can't do this stuff on our own. But most of us aren't, and the other half of us or whatever is, it's it's so much easier if you have people to support you. And it's like, you know, Katrina was talking about the window of tolerance in the beginning. And when you are dysregulated, or you're outside of that window of tolerance. It takes internal resources that you build over time to help pull you back in. But it also takes external resources. It takes a support network, I tell you, when, when we were hit with this, you know, what was it two weeks ago now or one week? I can't remember now. Two weeks, maybe? Almost two, and yeah, and the first thing I, I, the first thing that was in my head was like, Where are my people? And I you know, I was messaging and I was calling my friends and like, just telling them like, like, Fuck, I need some help. I need I need to talk this out. Like, I need an ear, I need someone to just hold space for me. And they were all like, you know, when you have people peers who are in the same, you know, sort of capacity I guess, to hold that space. It's it's a gift. And as I really we all need it. So I'm just encouraging every single person who listens to this if you're still here, at this point of the episode to reach out to somebody to get some support you it doesn't you don't have to wait until you're absolutely drowning. And in complete despair before you get help before you get some guidance before you get someone to link arms with you to help you through whatever it is that's happening. And in fact, it's so much easier if you don't wait until that point, right because then you're in crisis and you have to deal with the crisis moment before you can even start getting at the healing. And so but I wondered if we could leave everyone with just maybe like one like what would be your top tip for finding safety finding compassion except for one another kind of like dropping back the judgment, creating a pause. I mean, those are kind of things that come to my mind. But what's, you know, maybe you could share with us what would be your, your like, last final nugget of wisdom for everyone who is listening? Well, that's a big one. Oh, yeah, I guess, you know, it's Oh, it's so there's so much I want to say. But really, I guess finding self compassion, the self compassion, like we've talked about a lot of like giving compassion, it's like bringing it back to yourself. No matter what your belief is, no matter where you stand. When you know, no matter what experiences you've had, even though they may be really shitty, you know, is to be like, compassionate to yourself. And remember how important you are, and that you deserve to feel good, do you deserve to feel whole again, you deserve to get the support you need. You deserve to take time off. You deserve not to be taught to in a tone. That is disrespectful. And, and you have the right to speak your, you know, to those that you trust, you know, and, and to, to, to really, yeah, just remember how important you are. Give yourself some love. Yeah. I love that. And it's just reminding me of, you know, loving kindness is what they call it in, like Buddhist psychology, right? Loving Kindness, meditations, but where they talk about it, as you know, first you offer it to yourself. And then you imagine, you know, and I've gone through this this past couple of weeks is giving myself all the love and compassion and then imagining, you know, you and what you were going through and sending all that same love and compassion and understanding and, and thinking about all of the people who have been repressed, or shut down or discriminated against or judged. And, you know, I started just with thinking about nursing, and just all the nurses who have been push down for so long, right, so long, our voices have just been muffled and gagged. And just we don't want to hear from you. Like just sit down and shut up and do your job. And the, the fuel that comes from having holding compassion for that and like really feeling into how just how awful that is to feel powerless and to feel hopeless, right to feel like your life is not even yours to manage to control. And just holding that just in my own personal space into my own heart. It is the fuel that keeps, you know, like keeps me here with you again today. And just to keep moving forward. Because you know, I think it's a reflection, and I'm going to use what you said in the meeting that we had a couple weeks ago, but just that this is a symptom of the sickness that is in our system, but also like in our world. And so the more we have these open, honest conversations, the more we heal, and the more we move forward. Yeah, so I'm just I'm just so grateful for you, in so many, so many ways. And but But for today, like really just to be able to be here with me and to be so honest, and and real and authentic and all those things that you were reflecting back to me because I mean, we literally are looking in a mirror at each other. So I just really honor that and love you just endlessly. Yeah. And to everyone that's listening, I just I hope that you hear our hearts and you know that we are standing in this with you together, no matter where you stand. There is safe, loving, open, accepting, compassionate support right here for you. And, and we hope that we we get to connect with you and support you along your way. So thank you so much, Katrina. Thanks so much, Sandra.