Institutional Betrayal and Nursing with Jasper Pare | ETS08

Okay, you should get that little prompt Hang on, sorry. We're good. Oh, and I just will mention too. If you say something and you don't want to say it, you can take it back. And you could just say, you can just pause, take a breath, just say edit that. Take a breath and then just start again. Or all started again, but don't. Don't stress about it. It's

okay. Yeah.

Okay. All right. Welcome back to the Emma silence podcast. My name is Sandra Payne. I am your host. And I'm here tonight with Jasper Padre, if I said that, right. He is a registered nurse from Victoria BC. And I'm so eager to dive into his story and all he has to share with us. Also, I just want to celebrate the Jasper is the first male nurse to join me on the show. So yeah, oh, yeah. Awesome. Yeah. Totally. Welcome to the show.

Yeah, great. Awesome. So be here. Yeah. That you wanted to talk to me. So great.

Excited. Yeah, me too. So let's kick it off with a nursing in real life moment.

Yeah. Okay. So yeah, let's see. So I work in the operating room. Real deeply Hospital in Victoria, you see. And yeah, nursing and life moments. I'll share something that happens relatively recently. So let's see. Okay, so I was maybe can you ask him that? Sorry, added that.

Yeah. Let's see.

If you go back to the nursing and, yeah, nursing. I don't I'm not sure how to go on. To go into it. But if you ask me again, I'll figure it out.

Okay. Take two. All right. Why don't we kick it off with your nursing in real life moment?

Okay, great. Yeah. So I work in an operating room, in a hospital in Victoria BC. And something that happened to me recently. I think I was on Yeah, it would have been evening shift. And we had an emergency cardiac case come in. So the hospital I work at is the Cardiac Center for all Vancouver Island. And I'm not a cardiac trained nurse. I've had a few kind of like, limited experiences with it. But typically, it takes like months of training before you're scrubbing on this kind of cases independently. And we had a case crashed through the door. And our on call heart nurse wasn't able to make it in time they were on their way. But we just had to like, get started anyway. So I was kind of the one who decided to step up and try it like no one, no one on staff had had the skills necessary. And even the cardiac Assist, which is usually like a GP or like a doctor, like they weren't there either. So I kind of jumped in, and we're setting up a table, patient crash to the room. They're like craps. And we're just like, we're going for it. I don't have all the supplies. I don't know what I'm doing. But we just we just have to keep keep going. And and we didn't the craziest thing was that like the sternal saw, no one knew how to set it up properly. So we just couldn't wait it normally has this like this guard so you can only kind of like a you know, a certain amount. And so we're just diving in and we just had to like cut open the sternum without this guard and the saws kind of like going all over the place. And we get and get the patient's just cracked and it's just like yeah, it's it's not because there was like, there was a wrench and the the patient's heart well, and but anyway, we have control and eventually the cardiac assist and a properly trained cardiac nurse came in and took over. But yeah, I just there's something I love about the the operating room is just like you never know what's gonna come through the door and you're always learning and you just kind of like Just take your one one step at a time, take a deep breath and keep going. So yeah, that was kind of a memorable moment. For me. That's happened recently.

Totally. And I feel like it's a, it's like an example of actually what nursing is, you never know what you're, you know, you never know what you're walking into, you never know what's coming in the door, or what you're, you know, if you're in a unit, you never know what you're walking into on that day. And that's kind of like the uncertainty that nurses faced every single day, right? Every single shift is uncertain, you really have no idea. Being able to face that kind of uncertainty and rise to it in every situation, I think really, is a great example of the resiliency and the grit that nurses hold just naturally because of the situations that we're in. So thank you for sharing that story. I can just like, even as you were telling it, I was like, kind of gripping my knees like where's this going? So thank you. Yeah, and so let's kind of reel it back a little bit. And maybe you can share with us a little bit more about your story as a nurse, and, you know, maybe some of your successes, some of your struggles. And yeah, I'll just give you the floor. And you can share with us, whatever, whatever feels right.

Sure. Great. Thanks, Sandra. So yeah, um, I have been a nurse since 2013. I went through the commotion EBIT program in Victoria. And kind of like very early on. I think in second year, I didn't or follow through. Actually, it was cardiac surgery that I saw in like, second year. So this would have been over 10 years ago. And just seeing like, the team environments, and the technology, and just how exciting and interesting, it all was, I was drawn to that right away. And, and so that's kind of like where my career path took me is right into the operating room after graduation. And yeah, yeah, I've, I've really enjoyed it. It's been a satis fun and rewarding career. I think my, my most, like, rewarding moments have had to do with teaching, and Preceptor. And I've always really enjoyed preceptory preceptor to few students over the last few years. And, yeah, it's so cool to watch a student come in and just, you get to kind of like, live through their eyes, like because I remember when I did my first Orthology we're just like, how exciting and like it was just like momentous, momentous and memorable occasion for me. And then it starts to become kind of routine after a while. So it's really cool to, to be able to like really, really, excuse me relive that excitement over and over again. And then watch them kind of takes their take their first steps into, like doing their first scrub on their own and, and then and then see them around on the unit years later and see them continuing to grow and grow into these like, you know, independent and competent nurses. So um, yeah. So you know, I've had a really satisfying career and nursing and then on, let's see, no, October in October, October 26, I guess it was. I was put on unpaid leave for choosing not to share confidential information about my medical status. And middle of November, I was terminated. So I'm actually I'm still a nurse, I guess. I know, I know, I know, I'm still a nurse, but I'm not an employed nurse anymore. So on. That's where my career in nursing has temporarily at least ended. And yeah, I'm doing something totally different. And crossing my fingers that I'll get back into patient care in the future.

Yeah. And so I definitely want to come back to that I'm to that whole experience and how that's impacted you and but before that, I would just I'm curious, you know, I talked to a lot of women, nurses, and of course, it's, you know, predominantly women in nursing, but I have a really pretty well rounded grasp on the challenges that that nurses face. And I've heard so many stories from from women's perspective. And I'm super curious to see if there's any difference, you know, from your perspective, but how have like, what have been the struggles as a nurse like so, you know, everything prior to like the last six months kind of deal, but what what have been like how has it affected you being a nurse? Like what have been some of the struggles you've had?

Yeah, that's, um, that's a great question. Yeah, there's there's been struggles for sure. Let's see. Yeah, I mean, you know, like, alright, I edit that. Can you start again? Yeah, good. Yeah. Yeah. He just asked me that. You asked him that question again.

Just just about like, what kind of sorry? Okay, yeah. What, what kind of struggles? Like, have you gone through as a nurse?

Yeah, so. Yeah. I mean, no, I don't feel like I've had a lot of struggles. You know, I've definitely found it challenging. I found the shift were very challenging. And I think I struggled earlier on in my career with work life balance. And, yeah, I mean, I know that burnout in nursing is such like, such a prevalent thing and in, in this field. But yeah, I don't feel like I've struggled with burnout. I think I've always been good at setting bad boundaries around like, you know, like, overtime and things like that. Because I know, for a lot of people, it's, it's really hard to say no, because if you don't show up, it's like, maybe there's no one else. Right. And I think that's one of the reasons it's so bad in nursing, it's good to eat. Like, you can't

kiss you care.

Yeah. Because you care. Totally. Yeah. And not that I don't care. But I think, I mean, the aura is a little different, right? Because you, you know, if there's, if there's not two free nurses, we can, we can't run a room. So it's like, we, you know, we just say no, we can't do that surgery. And it, you know, it sucks because it means someone's get someone gets cancelled, and they may have to come back on another day. And, you know, for patients, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's a huge day for them, they're going through life changing experience. Sometimes it's something positive, sometimes something negative. So, for them to kind of like miss out on their surgery and have to reschedule their lives. It's, it sucks. But um, I also feel like we're kind of like propping up the healthcare system by continuing the saying, yes, and then, you know, we have nurses, working double shifts every day, and just getting more and more burnt out, and then eventually leaving, you know, leaving their jobs. So, um, yeah, yeah.

I wonder about, like, you know, I think a lot of, well, first of all the, the aspect of like, the guilt and the, the, you know, not wanting to leave your colleagues, as much as it's like, we care, and we don't want to do that there is it's, it's this imbalance between caring for others and caring for ourselves, right. So, that's, that's where I see a lot of the struggle. And I, you know, when it comes to women, there is, in my experience, personally, but also in just the work I do is like, there's this bar, this expectation that, that we feel, or maybe we've been taught and conditioned, quite likely to, to feel like we have to meet. And then if we're not meeting it, then we feel like a failure. We feel like we're, you know, we're not good enough, or we're weak, or we're not cut out for this job. And so then there's this constant pushing, even at the sacrifice of ourselves in order to meet this sort of, like, ever rising bar that we like, it's honestly, it's unachievable, because it's, it's this, you know, it's really deep rooted and connected to so many different pieces, but I'm curious, like, you know, as you're sharing and saying, like, if there wasn't really a lot of struggles in that way for you. Did you feel like that same kind of expectation coming into nursing? Like, did you have that same kind of, like idol that you were you felt like you had to live up to as a nurse?

Yeah, that's an interesting question. Yeah, I mean, definitely like I will say Because he knows he's talking about, about burnout and being overworked and stuff. I've, I've noticed that more in the woman on our unit than the men. So so maybe there is there is something there for sure. Yeah, I mean, I didn't go into it. With too many expectations on myself. I mean, I always just came in wanting to do the best job I could. But I didn't have. Yeah, yeah, I don't think I had like a super strong expectation of myself in that way that you're describing?

Yeah, it's really, it's really quite interesting. Um, you know, I'm like, I want to, I want to probe this deeper, just because I feel like there is, there's something there. And, you know, it just in primarily, it's making me feel like, oh, my gosh, I need to talk to more men to see it to see if this is like a common thread or Yeah, you know, because I mean, I, I remember myself coming into nursing, I definitely was, like, you know, excited, and I was ambitious. And I was, you know, feeling feeling confident, but nervous at the same time and excited to learn, like all those pieces, but it felt also, like, you know, you see all these nurses that are there, and they just give everything that they got, and there's like, okay, that's how I have to be like, and so then when reality starts to set in, and you're being called in on, you know, every day off, and you're being asked to miss your breaks, and you're being asked to stay later, and you're being asked to do all these things. It, I think it's a really slippery slope towards even if you start out with like, feeling, you know, confident that you're going to be able to make this all work. It's a slippery slope of how quickly you can start to leave yourself behind and not care for your own needs, and just be all into your work. I think particularly too, I mean, when I started, I didn't have a family, I didn't have any other responsibilities, really. I mean, I have a dog, but it was not like, there was a lot of things holding me back. So I was always working. But then as life changes, those like precedents are set, and then it becomes really hard to kind of scale that back. I don't know if you have anything to add to that. Yeah,

totally. I mean, like, I think we all go into the profession with the best of intentions like, like, I think fundamentally, anybody who goes into nursing is known as a caring a caring person. And typically, you know, a selfless person as well. Right. Yeah, so

I think that word is so interesting, selfless. I remember reading, I think it was Glenn and Doyle's book. And she talked about selfless. It's like, as, as women, I'll just, you know, share this with you. But a lot of us are kind of trained to be selfless, right? Like to be the giver to always care for everyone's needs. And self less is like, I mean, it's no self like you, you've taken yourself out of your life. And I think, I mean, of course, of course, that's going to lead to a lot of problems, right? If you're not looking after yourselves, I mean, we all know that, we need to fill our own cups before we can give to others, but knowing it and actually putting it into action, when you're, you know, facing all these kind of deep rooted beliefs about what you're supposed to be like. It's two different things. So let's go, let's go back now to where you were sharing about what's kind of happened for you, over the last six months, and really back into October, when, when the, you know, the mandates were kind of laid out by the government and our employers and our, you know, I guess our college and our union were, you know, supporting it, and leaving us in a position of making that choice. And we were talking just before we hit record, and how that is not an easy choice to land on. And I don't imagine anybody out there who has lost their job was just, you know, making that choice just kind of on a whim and like not giving it any thought and consideration because it impacts everything. So I'm curious, like, you know, what, you don't have to share about like, your beliefs or anything like that, if unless you feel you you want to but like, what, what was happening for you like, what were you seeing that led you to feel like, you know, that this was the choice for you?

Yeah, that's, that's a great question. And one of them I get asked fairly often actually, by friends and old co workers and family and stuff like that. You know, it's such a divisive issue, and it's such a big issue. There's so much to talk about, so it's it's always hard to know where to start. Yeah, I guess like yeah, We're where to start. I think one thing, you know, I had a have a colleague and the or one of the doctors who was pretty vocal just about kind of some of the misinformation that may or may not have been presented by, by the media and the government, as far as case numbers and things like that, and, and just how information can be kind of massaged, represented in a certain way to create fear. And he was kind of, he was being censored for just trying to offer an alternative to the current narrative. And that made me just kind of like, take a pause and really think about things. And that's one of the reasons I initially delayed, you know, making a choice regarding the vaccine. And then the longer I waited, the more clear, it seemed to me that it was the right choice for myself. When the mandates started coming to effects it. It, it just felt wrong on so many levels. And then another reason kind of earlier on that, that I just kind of took a pause on on getting is because my wife and I were trying to conceive at the time. And there, in my opinion, hadn't been enough time for them to study, you know, and definitively say there's no long term side effects on certain things like fertility. And, yeah, I always find it interesting that they were so quick to kind of promote it in pregnant women, specifically, just because typically, that's like the last demographic that gets any kind of like, medication or vaccine, and there's, there's years of rigorous, rigorous study. So yeah, there were just there were a few kind of things that kind of made me slow down and think. And yeah, the more I thought about it, the more I felt like the right, the right choice for me. And, yeah, like, I fundamentally just disagree with the, with the mandates. Know, I believe that we all have, you know, the right to choose what we put into our bodies and make that own kind of like, risk benefit analysis for ourselves. Definitely. So, yeah, I mean, there's, there's a lot more to it than that. But that's those are a few of the the things that came to mind, excuse me for one second. My dog, he can, if he pushes hard enough, he can just open the door into the office. He's here now, so hold on, safe.

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I think. You know, it's clear that it was not an easy decision that you took time to weigh what was right for you. And then landing in that place, you know, especially seeing a lot of discrepancy. And hearing, you know, from a trusted colleague, who is sharing his, you know, what his perception is and the information that he is trying to share. And you know, what I would agree, the censorship really early on rubbed me the wrong way, when he would see people, physicians, particularly, you know, renowned physicians with a lot to lose, speaking out and sharing different information and then being censored. That I mean, that raised all kinds of red flags for for myself as well. And then, you know, it just it's evolved over these last two and a bit years and left us in this really I huge freakin mess that we're in right now. Particularly the, you know, the mental and emotional impact of of all that the betrayal that many people have felt, and I'm curious, like how that's impacted you, you know, being terminated from your job that you have worked hard to, to achieve and that You have dedicated yourself to and that was, you know, your maybe not your life's work. I don't know, it's hard to predict that but but it was, you know, there was a real sense of pride in the work that you were doing and, and a commitment and a fulfillment to it. And then to have that taken away because of your, your own personal choice like, you know, I think it's, it's good for people to hear how that's impacted you.

Yeah, I think Sandra. Yeah, I mean, it, it was really hard. It was really hard, kind of, you know, getting the news, you know, that there was a concrete date, I remember. I remember being confident in my decision, but also, kind of always hoping in the back of my, in the back of my mind that, like, you know, it was a game of chicken, and, you know, like that they were going to blink eventually. So, you know, right up until the last day, I kind of had hoped that they would kind of rescind the mandates and because it's like, our healthcare system, was already in crisis before the pandemic. And it's suffered even more during the pandemic, and then now to fire 1000s of healthcare workers is seems insane. So, um, so yeah, and then, and then being in the hospital around all these people who, you know, the majority, you know, had a negative kind of view of people who had made a choice I've made. So I spent the last few months in my job is kind of like, being terrified that someone would have found out about, you know, my, my stance because I didn't feel comfortable sharing it in the workplace while I was working. Just because you're kind of surrounded on on all sides by by people who say nasty things. So, so yeah, it was hard leading up and then. And then the impact itself. Yeah, I was in losing my job was tough. I mean, you know, I've always tried to look at challenging situations like this as an opportunity. So, you know, I've taken that as an opportunity to explore a new career, I'm actually really enjoying that, but it still doesn't make right what's happened to me. I mean, you know, like, we were kind of relying on, on my, on my income. And I've taken a job, that's much lower pain, which is fine. But yeah, it's been, you know, like, I mentioned, like, my wife and I are trying to conceive. And then, shortly after I lost my job, we found out she was pregnant. Which is amazing. We're so excited. But, um, yeah, I mean, one of the reasons I chose nursing as a career, you know, it was for the stability. And then the kind of like, and especially for the stability of having a having a family, because, like, my upbringing was great, but you know, it was often unstable financially. So that was something that was really important to me, you and you're deciding to start having a family is, you know, to be in a stable position, and then to just have that kind of, like, ripped out from under me all the years of work. Yeah, yeah, it's been tough. But, you know, I, I generally don't dwell on the negative aspects, because, you know, I really believe that, that I made the right choice. And, you know, and ultimately, I knew what the consequences were going to be of that choice. You know, I don't agree with them. But, um, you know, I was happy to still stick with that gut decision and, and, and carry on with life. And, yeah, yeah, I believe that, um, that I'm on the right path, and that, in the end, everything's gonna work out. So

like, I just want to frame that right there. There is, you know, just go back to what you were saying about when you were still working, and the fear that you were feeling just around people finding out and what they would say because they're, I mean, there's division in the whole world, but there is real division in the in the nursing profession, and the health care system, really, it's not just a nursing and there have been some really, really awful, hateful and Shame throwing things said and done and to work in that, you know, already it's a stressful environment, when you're working in healthcare, to add that level of fear and insecurity, you know, it just I can, I can feel that in my body as to what that would have, or could have been like, for you. And then, you know, of course, you knew what the consequences were like, it's not like you made the choice on a whim. It's not like you made it, and then we're surprised like, you know, there was there was thought put into it, and it takes a lot of courage really, to, to stand for, for yourself and to stand for what's right for you. And I really, you know, I'm in awe of, of everyone who has taken loss in this and just for standing for what they believe is right. And, you know, I think of when I got into nursing two, there, there was this sense of security, like, I really, always felt that no matter what, I was protected, no matter what, I had this stable career that I could always, you know, it was, it was stable, there was no, it was not a rocky Foundation, like, you know, someday you might lose your job someday, you know, there's not enough work, like, there's always enough work. And there's always another job, if yours is not working out, like there was, there was a real comfort in that. And I think, you know, I talked a little bit about this in a separate video, but on my YouTube channel, and I'll link it in the show notes, because it was about an institutional betrayal, and how that affects us. And, you know, particularly I'm feeling like, you know, we're standing on the solid foundation, we're like, I got nothing to worry about, like, I mean, I remember being told, like you could, you could be an addict, and they would still protect you, you still wouldn't lose your job, right. So I'm like, that sounds like probably one of the worst places that a nurse could be is, you know, showing up to work drunk, but they still would protect you. So here we are in this place where it's now been shattered. That foundation that safe, secure foundation of trust has been shattered. And now the recovery from that is, is really the question is like, you know, if if they invite you back to work, you know, have you considered that and what that would look like for you? And, and what do you see as, you know, the rebuild that needs to happen now after shaking and really shattering this foundation?

Yeah, totally. Yeah, I mean, my, my wife, and I often, kind of like, laugh at our situation, just because we both had super. We thought and super secure union jobs, where it's like you, like you could do, you literally would have to, like, try and get fired? And even then it would be like, challenging.

They put you in a program to help you. Yeah.

It's kind of it's kind of hilarious that, um, for in this situation for you know, what, you know, what I think is, you know, fairly innocuous. No, choice totally reasonable. Choice. Yeah, it's, it's, it sucks. Because I know, like, I question if I were to go back, you know, if I were offered, would I go back? And that, you know, it wouldn't be just an automatic Yes. Right. Like, I would take a pause and think about it. And I'm not the only one who feels that way. Like, you know, I'm lucky in a way that I'm a unit, there were a few of us who made this decision. And we found out about each other, because other employees were gossiping about us. But anyway, yeah, we found each other. And we've actually become really, really close with a few few co workers who I didn't know as well outside of work, that I now know, really well and see regularly and we've been able to support each other through this process, and I doubt that any of us would just jump to return like we all feel betrayed. And, you know, we all do, we've all also looked at this as an opportunity to explore new things. So, you know, our union has talked about, you know, making us whole and, and they're kind of like arbitration argument or whatever, whatever that that means. I mean, back pains, being reinstated with benefits and seniority and all that stuff. You know, it's it's appealing to me Yeah, because we are starting a family and, and I would like that stability if it was offered to me again. But you know, it's also been empowering to kind of like be be in control my own life. I mean, I think that you know that stability and security is great, but it's easy to get a little too comfortable in a way like, like, every year, you have a little more seniority and you get, you know, you get a better schedule, and you get an extra vacation day and a little more money. And like, every year you stay, it's harder and harder to leave. For myself anyway. And so, you know, I think I had been yearning to do something different for a little while. And, and, but I don't, I don't think I would have been able to just leave it. Just because so so in that sense, I'm grateful. I'm doing carpentry now, which is like, a big 180. But also not because I worked actually in orthopedic surgery, mostly, which is a lot of like, hammers and saws and screws and stuff like that. But yeah, it's really satisfying to be to be building something and working with my hands and seeing and building kind of, like, take shape. And no, I had a part in it. Although I will say, you know, it's not as rewarding as nursing, was it I don't think anything comes close to this like just like the satisfaction you get for carried through someone. So yeah, so yeah, we've all we've all missed that as well. It's um, yeah, it's a sad thing that's happened, I think.

Yeah, I agree. Yeah, it's a very sad thing. That's had a devastating impact on a lot of people. And a part of what's hard about it, too, is like seeing what feels like, you know, everybody just moving on, and kind of forgetting about those that were harmed and laughed and thrown out, like, the garbage like, just, yeah, and totally dismissed and betrayed. And that's not how we heal. We can't just forget, that's our I mean, that's our freakin culture's history is like, let's just tuck it under the rug, and pretend it didn't happen. Don't look at it, because, you know, that's going to be really difficult to recover from. But yet, we've never recovered from any historical trauma, because we've never faced it. And the only way to, to heal from this is what I see is accountability, accountability and responsibility is stepping up in these people who have made these decisions. To, you know, own their role and be, you know, accountable for what they've done. And I mean, I don't see any other way of rebuilding trust. From this kind of thing, again, this kind of betrayal. But, you know, it's interesting what you were saying about opportunity, I fully am on the same page as you, I think it's important that we honor ourselves and our feelings and our grief. And it is. It's so critical actually, to us when we are hit when we are affected in this kind of way that we that we truly I call it sit in the muck, just just to be with the sadness, the grief, the confusion, the the anger, all of it, to be with those different feelings and emotions that are going on inside of you. Because we can't just bypass that, right? It's a real experience. This is I mean, there's a motion here, this is hurt, this is hurt, and we can't, we can't just pretend that isn't real. But then, you know, looking for that different perspective is so important. Also, like we can't just sit in the muck and just wallow in there. It'll it'll devour us, right? So, you know, sitting in it is really, you know, with this open curiosity and being with what your experiences, but then looking for that shift, looking for that gift looking for that opportunity. And it sounds like you and some of your colleagues here have really been taking that on. It's interesting, too. I, back in October when this all started, I held a meeting and there was 50 nurses that came who were facing the mandate and majority of them from VC. And I asked a question in the group, a poll of who, who in the group was actually really satisfied in They're in their job as a nurse, like excited to go there every single day, you know, feeling like this was it like, I'm just I'm in the right spot, right? One person out of the 50 said that. So that's 49 of those 50 that were already feeling like, I'm not sure this is right. I'm not sure this is the place for me. Yeah, there is that comfort? And, you know, it makes me curious if that comfort that they give to us is, you know, maybe a part of how they keep us. Keep us kind of powerless, right? Like, you know, there was there was a whole conversation in a previous episode. And we talked about how do we give away our power so freely? And then we come to a place where it's like, we we don't have a say, right? We don't have a say in our life anymore. So yeah, that was a lot of kind of tied to tried to tie up there with a bow but I just, I really am honoring you in your, your, your vulnerability to share your story, and, and your heart and how this has affected you. I'm sending you like the most love and excitement and congratulations for you and your wife. Oh, thank you. Yeah, and this new journey that's about to start buckle up. And I have three so I you know, if you need any unsolicited advice, you can always turn my way. I like to say like, I'm not a parenting expert, but I've definitely learned some things over the past, you know, 11 years, but But yes, and, you know, I think if there is like, you know, a huge takeaway from this is that they're in every difficult situation, there is an opportunity, and it's not always glaring us right in the face, like, it's not always easy to see right away. And that, you know, may just mean that we need to spend more time in our mock, we need to spend more time being with what what has happened and dealing with the grief and, and all of those feelings that are coming up, but then looking for it, right, like asking those questions of like, Why would this happen? You know, what's, what's this? What's the purpose in this? And And what's this? You know, what's this all about? Can you tell me like, you know, before we wrap up, if you could, you know, what you see happening in our healthcare system? You know, I've called it like the dismantling, I think, you know, our healthcare system is shifting in a huge way, and it's gonna take a bit of a more of a dive before it can can be reconstructed. But what what do you kind of see is what needs to change?

Yeah, that's, that's a big, big issue. Yeah, I mean, I think, I guess maybe coming back to something I said earlier in the interview about just like us as nurses having, like, certain more clear boundaries, about like, you know, like, what we can do as individuals and, and having, you know, a greater priority on, on work life balance. I mean, I think that's where things have gone wrong for so many people. And yeah, I find it you know, it's interesting, because we get so much time in our, in our education, as nurses about reflecting on self care, things like that, but then we go out into the world. And, you know, it's really hard to practice. So, yeah, I think if more of us were able to set those kind of like clear boundaries, there would be less burnout, and there'd be more retention. Yeah, so So I guess, like, I think the health authorities as our employers could do a better job. And in creating the space for that. Yeah. I mean, that's one small thing. I see that can make a difference. I mean, there's so much more. More that needs to happen than than than just that.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But there's, you know, I, I, when, especially when I started doing this work with nurses, I was like, often finding myself like, I can't do this, like that. This issue is way too big. Like, you know, I would talk to the coach I was working with, and I'd be like, you don't understand what the system is, like, you don't understand, like, I can't, I can't make any change here. And I would just be like, scrambling and panicking. And she would just like, you know, whoa, just whoa, back up. Like, think about each individual out there. And she, you know, she says, you're out there with a squirt bottle, one person at a time. But after you're finished with them, they have their own squirt bottle and they're out there, spraying people. So I mean, I tell that story to my clients all the time. And I joke and say at the end of our program, I want to send them all a squirt bottle because I actually do believe that we can impact change on a really huge level by us just focusing on ourselves and as an dividual because when you set boundaries, when you prioritize yourself and your needs and your work life balance, you start to, you know, set that example for new nurses for some of your friends or colleagues or you know, people that you're working with, right? They see you doing that, they start to build from that they ask you questions, it's like, the ripple just spreads from there. So, although our system, you know, is really broken, and not working for anyone, at this stage it I mean, I shouldn't say that, but it's, it kind of feels like that most days, but

most of us feel that way. Yeah. So,

I mean, there is a lot of change that needs to happen, for sure. But I but I think if we want to feel like we have any sense of control, and we have any sense of empowerment in this is to say I'm, I'm in control of me. And so I'm going to make the changes that I need to make in order for me to be healthy me to be hold me to have that balance. And then, you know, maybe it is a choice, maybe it's a choice to leave, maybe it's a choice to stay. I mean, I've seen I've seen and I've worked with nurses, you know, in my in my program that stay. But once they start doing the work on themselves staying doesn't seem like such a, you know, a life sentence like, you know, I've just have to count away the days until I'm retiring, which is just such an awful place to be. I mean, how many times do we hear that right? All the time? All the time? Yeah. So I mean, I really appreciate you for being here, for sharing your story. I want to just give you a chance. Is there anything else you would like to share with the listeners?

Yeah, yeah, I think, you know, I think it's, it's a really ugly place we're in now, in some ways. But, you know, I really, truly believe that, um, that everything's going to work out. And, you know, I believe that there will be, you know, a lot of healing and, and good that comes out of this, you know, I think, I think we're, you know, we're going to learn, and, you know, I've, I shared my story on social media recently. And, you know, I just had a huge influx of, of, of support and love and compassion and understanding. And I think the more that we all share our stories, you know, the more we create these opportunities for people, you know, to learn and experience, you know, what we've been through and bring people on either side together. So, so yeah, I just, I, you know, I have a lot of hope for the future. And it's all going to work out that I believe,

yeah, it's, um, I often say to my kids faith and trust, and a little bit of pixie dust, like, sometimes it doesn't quite feel like enough. But I think I think you're right, I truly believe everything happens, for a reason, as maybe as cliche as that sounds, it's I that's what I believe. And I think that this is going to evolve, I think we have an opportunity here as individuals to, to learn and to do better for each of us. And, you know, we've all played a role, no matter what page you've been on, throughout all of this, and compassion is going to be a huge thing for us and healing as a culture. And, you know, and just seeing each other in our own experience, and our shared experience, I should say, and, you know, recognizing that we're all doing the best that we can we all see through a different lens, we all have a different truth, a different belief system, and that doesn't make anybody less than or greater than each other, that we're all just, you know, kind of figuring this out. But the more we can come together, and share our experiences, just like you're saying, share our stories, and hold space for each other, just with this open, curiosity and understanding and compassion, I think is, you know, it is going to be the ticket for us and healing, you know, to move forward for these generations to come that deserve a better, brighter future than what we're currently in. And, you know, I just want to go back to that accountability piece, because although I, I believe our systems need to take accountability and our employers and every level that also includes us. And part of that is, you know, owning how you have contributed to, to the current climate of division and hate and separation. And no matter what you believe you've contributed, in some ways, right? Like, you know, almost almost none of us have been completely perfect and how we've treated other people and how we've, you know, judged and criticized and considered ourselves as separate and the more of us that really take those honest looks at ourselves and, and, and accountability for the role that we've played. It creates an opportunity, again, an opportunity to change it, right? If you're not willing to be honest about it, you can't change it. So in order to just like put your ego aside and step up and own what what role you've played not just in this either, like we're talking this has been going on for years and years and years, right generations. I don't know how long but long time that we've had division in our, in our world, so maybe, maybe, so it's like, possibly this is a huge opportunity for us as like as a species to to change the trajectory of where we're going because this is not this not healthy for anybody, right like to live in this kind of fear and instability and uncertainty kind of frame like this grassy kind of way of living. It's just not healthy for anybody. So yeah, I this is such a needed conversation and I'm so grateful for your courage to share it and to sit with me and, and dig in in this way. So yeah, again, just a super huge thank you for for being here and allowing us to witness and hear your story.

Thanks, Sandra. It's been a pleasure.

Awesome. Okay, so we'll just like hang on. I'm going to hit stop recording. Hi.