Self Compassion in the Face of Stigma and Shame with Paige Mathison | ETS03

My guest today is Paige Matheson. Paige has been a psychiatric nurse since 2009. She practiced rural mental health nursing in Manitoba, just like me for seven years prior to moving to beautiful British Columbia. Once in Kelowna, she worked in the emergency department acute and intensive psychiatry along with substance use and assessment programs within a hospital setting. After many years of decreasing job satisfaction in 2019, she applied to a Master's of Arts in Counseling Psychology program with the intent to provide services to health care providers. Unfortunately, in January of 2020, a workplace incident led to an eight month mental health leave and an adjustment disorder diagnosis. The initial guilt and shame associated with the experience has led to further advocation for mental health prioritization for healthcare professionals. Now that her Master's is complete, it's time to help those who help others. Also a stand up comedian she recognizes the importance of laughter and lightness in finding a sense of well being super excited to have you here today with me, Paige, welcome to the show. Oh, I'm super stoked to be here. Thank you so much for having this platform. It's wonderful. It's truly wonderful. Yeah, awesome. And you know, when I was reading that you were a stand up comedian. I was like, honestly, I love laughing and I love laughing at myself. I love laughing at stupid things in the world. And I think it just really, yeah, it just lightens the stressful achy Enos of everything that is going on. So anyways, we'll get back in and I'm sure it'll come out. But tell us a little bit about you. Who who are you? How did you get here? What brought you here today? Kinda? Well, I, it's so funny. Like, I had always been interested in mental health. Like in grade nine, I knew I wanted to be a psych nurse. Like I found that I didn't have to be come a doctor to work with Psych. I thought I didn't ever anticipate or expect that there were psych nurses. And I could do a degree in that. So when I did it, I was when I learned about it. I was super thrilled. And I jumped right in right after high school. And soon as I graduated, yeah, I've been doing it for nearly 13 years now. Cool. Yeah. And so tell us a little bit about your story, like, you know, coming into nursing and what's it been like for you? And yeah, it's sort of like the the history of Paige as a nurse. Yeah. So I started. So I went to university and Brandon, Manitoba. And when I graduated, I went to Dauphin, Manitoba, which is a couple hours north of Brandon. And it was just a small unit, just 10 beds. So one seclusion room. And it was, it was interesting to work in such a small community, because we cater to such a large, a large part of Manitoba. And so I got a lot of diverse interactions with the people in my community, the people and surrounding communities. And I just found it fascinating. It didn't matter whether the person was coming in with depression, personality disorder, psychosis, whatever it looked like I was I wanted to help. I was so curious about diagnoses and, and just being a part of someone's wellness journey like that, from the very start was something that I always just loved. And as time went on, I had some like, I was married at one point. And then when we split, I thought, You know what, it's time to just completely uproot my life go somewhere else. And I moved to DC. And when I saw that there was a job opportunity in emergency department, I was like, yes, like when they're in the the deepest crisis, the biggest acuity, the most intensive site that you need that needs assistance in those moments, I wanted to be a part of that. And I did that for a year, full time of over a year full time. And then I went casual and kind of bumped around everywhere in Kelowna, basically, other than adolescent psych, so all the adults kind of know me, and all the nurses who work with psych, Psych nurses kind of know me at this point. It's kind of the perk of casual, though, right? You get to have your toe in so many different in different water. Yeah. Tell me a little bit more about, you know, the, in the intro that I read about you was saying that like with decreasing job satisfaction when you decided to go after your masters, what was kind of happening in that time? Yeah, so when I first was leaving off, and I'd been a nurse for about seven years, and at that point, I was already starting to feel the sense of, of burnout. And I actually remember the first time in Dauphin when we had a person come in with drug induced psychosis from meth. And I had never seen that before. Because it was very, very rare in rural rural spaces. And since that time when 2016 Like, I mean, our drug crisis has just become out of out of control. And so especially in British Columbia, we've been hit incredibly hard with the opioid crisis. And so when I moved out to BC, I thought, well, maybe I was how Nursing burnout because I was in the same role all the time, in Manitoba, and that this new shift to emerge, nursing was going to be really refreshing for me. I just continued to spiral deeper and deeper and I, no matter how much I tried to do self care and try to look into, like, What do I love about my job. At that time, I just was not finding the coping skills I needed to do to continue. So then that's when I dropped down to casual. And then as casual it was a great bump and boost for a minute. And then I was like, I'm actually enjoying counseling my co workers and having deep and meaningful conversations with them about their stressors, more than I'm enjoying the element of providing nursing care, because nursing care, was basically providing medications and doing tons and tons of paperwork. And that is not why I went into the role of nursing. I wanted direct patient care and spending time with the people that needed help. Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah, I hear you. And when you're talking about like, the spiral that happened, you know, I think about all the nurses out there right now, and those that might be listening, and what they might be going through. And a lot of times, it's hard to notice in yourself, when you're when you're struggling until you're really in the weeds. Or actually what tends to happen more often is somebody else comments about how you're doing or things that they've noticed about you. And then it kind of like is a reflection back of like, oh my gosh, I didn't realize it was not bad. And so I'm curious if you could kind of paint us more of a picture of like, what what that spiral was looking like for you. And I will also just comment that, you know that the jumping right like that it was gonna be better somewhere else, like, oh, it's gonna be better here. I totally went through that, too, if you've ever listened to any of my talks, because I think I've had nine different jobs as a nurse because I was like, it's got to be better somewhere else. But but that deep rooted pain and trauma and, and the depression it just it followed me wherever I went. There was like always this spark initially and like much more excitement in that, but then it faded really quick. And I found myself yeah, so yeah, absolutely. A bit more about about that for you. Yeah. Yeah, I felt while when I was a beginner nurse, everything was exciting. Everything felt fresh and new, and that curiosity was always there. And as time continued, I was hoping that no one would show up at the emergency department, like I was sitting in my office being like, please, nobody come, please, no buddy show up. Because I just didn't have the energy to put in the deep seated work of like either doing a really deep and meaningful interview with someone for their mental health assessment. Or if someone came in with severe psychosis where the violence risk was incredibly high. I did not want it. I didn't want to deal with it. I just I was over it. And I was sitting there thinking to myself, This is not how I felt before like this. Why did why is my curiosity started to decrease. And it was because the workload that was being put on us was far more than it ever should have been put. We only have one emergency nurse that's psych trained on at a time in our department. And we're so so busy. It just made it impossible to keep up with the workload and the caseload because we were just getting swamped. And it was the same with our medical nurses, too. But they are so had each other while we were sitting alone in our little tiny office surrounded by psych patients who were struggling at varying levels of struggle. Yeah, yeah. And with that kind of paints for me, correct me if I'm off base, but is the, you know, the whole conversation that has really sprung up over the last year about moral distress and moral injury. And just Yeah, being in a position where it's like, you have this passion to help people. I mean, you had it from this young age of knowing that you wanted to deal with mental health and help with mental health and, and this curiosity and but yet seeing it all kind of fade away, because you're left unsupported on resource, or under resourced, and unable to serve people in the ways that they need to be served. And it just becomes like this huge weight on on us because we want to do good work. But the fact that we can't effectively do the job makes us almost not want to do it at all. So then we pull and we withdraw even further. Yeah, totally. Yes. 100%. On, what 100% onpoint. Because that was exactly it. I couldn't do the quality of care that I knew I wanted to be able to provide. So it just becomes defeating, right, because you're like, I'm half asking it because I have no other choice. Because it was so disappointing because I was like, This isn't me. This isn't the quality of work I want to be able to provide. And my goal at the end of shift was if I can either make a person's life, either the exact same or better That was the goal. So it didn't matter whether it was just like 10% better, 100% better or 0% better, I just didn't want to make their day worse. And so, but sometimes we have to disappoint people and whatever resources we can suggest or provide At those times, and that sucked. And I was taking that home with me for I'm like, Man, I'm burnt out. Yeah, and that that piece right there, too, is really, really important to bring up like the bringing it home, because I know so many, you know, nurses or people in leadership, they'll be like, that's like kind of a blanket advice. You need to learn how to leave work at work. And I think that's so patronizing. Because easier said than done, we are human beings. And we're in this role, trying our best to help people who are suffering and struggling in some of the worst ways, and in ineffective in many, in many ways in our job, because we don't have the resources, the staff, whatever, all those pieces unsupported. And so tell me, like, how do you not bring that home? Like, how do you turn that off? Because that's something I never figured out. I mean, I do have like, a real appreciation now. And I think, you know, if I were to go into a traditional setting, again, I probably would, would be a lot different than how I was before. But being able to, you know, recognize what's what's what's within my control, and really to manage the expectations I put on myself, on myself. And I feel like those are really important pieces. But is there anything else that you kind of have kind of had this aha or insight now that you're on the outside and see like, how do you how do you leave work at work when you're especially an empath, right, like most of us, is taking it all on? And, yeah, just one set. Alright, go ahead. Yeah, I love that you mentioned expectations is just putting the appropriate expectations on ourselves. Like, I think there's so much stigma within within the nursing field as well. Like, there's the there's the idea that nurses eat their young. And we put these huge expectations on each other that we can always have each other's back. But the thing I like to think of on a very frequent basis, whenever I start feeling overwhelmed or guilty, or see one of my co workers struggling, I just say to myself or to them, we're human beings in heroic roles, we are not Superman, we never will be superwoman, we are human beings. So the fact that we are human means that we will make mistakes, that we will have these moments where we have to provide self compassion, because we will never be perfect. But that's what we're told we need to be, you need to get 100% on your dosing exams, you need to get super high grades to continue into, like if you wanted to do like a nurse practitioner, or whatever type of following education you want to do. And we have a ton of responsibility more so than I think anyone could ever teach us in school. And so when I think of ourselves in these roles, and that, that, like the general public have these high expectations, physicians have high expectations, but we've got really high expectations of ourselves, which just sets us up for disappointing ourselves over and over again, and then we'll bring it home with us. Yeah, I so agree with you in every way. And I talk about this a lot in my program, and I talk about it a lot in the workshops that I do and like you know, we come into nursing, you're right with this idol of like what we're supposed to be like and then so we're striving and we are in this fresh space of like curiosity and like really, you know, a lot of drive and excitement so we can push ourselves at that point. A lot of times we're coming into it to we don't have kids, we don't have families, we don't have other big expectations and rules. And so we have a little more space, right? So we this was me anyways, like push, push, push, push to be that idol. And then you start to notice it, like impacting all these different areas like because it's not it's just not sustainable. Like the super super woman or like a robot actually is what I kind of relate it to to is like you're supposed to just be able to do everything and be on all the time and like live in this high stress like fight or flight but have it not impact you whatsoever. Like I'm sorry, in what? That's not human. That's that's not right. So no, not sorry, actually. Because it's it's really unrealistic what we what we throw at people so tell me a little bit so when you were at that point of noticing, you know, you're in your office by yourself there and you're you're feeling like this is not how I want to be delivering care. And you decided to go for your masters. So tell us a little bit about that, that journey and and where you're at now. Yeah, when I realized that casual work wasn't cutting it and that I still bumping from place to place getting like a variety of work and I still loved working with my coworkers. I still loved my interactions with my patients. I was like, what is it about my job that I love? What is it about this role that I love and I was like it is talking with you It is impacting their life, even with like a really meaning like, one tiny meaningful conversation can change a person's world. And so when I realized that that's the part I loved, I started looking into what are my options for doing like a master's, in counseling and becoming a counselor. And I soon as I found a program that was completely distance education, it was Yorkville university on the east coast of Canada. And I thought, I can do this, I'm gonna do this, this is what I want. And so I applied in January of 2019. And I started in September of 2019. And I was, I was flying high, I was in such a good mindspace. I felt like this, this. This sense of purpose. I just felt like this moment of like, this is actually what I was meant to do like are supposed to be in the nursing role to learn about helping people. But now I'm wanting to go into the world and help helpers who need it more than anyone and who are typically very afraid to ask for it because they're afraid of the stigma. Yeah, yeah. And so you just recently graduated and tell us about what's like, what's next for you? What's kind of some of your plans that are percolating? Yeah, so yeah, just graduated, just signed a lease for office space. Here in Kelowna, I have every intention of continuing my training, so I could become a trauma, trauma counselor, like do like EMDR, learn more about adjustment disorder, I can talk a little bit about my experience at that as well. But I just I just want to be able to help people through the their struggles within their workspace, but also outside of their workspace, because yeah, we've got our stressors there. But there's so much more to nurses than just being a nurse, there are so many pieces of our puzzles, we are helpers through and through. And we're empaths in so many regards. And there's just so much more than like, we're also managing coping with the pandemic, and the losses associated with that. It's not just having to worry about it at work, we're, our lives are completely impacted in every way. Totally. Yeah, it's, it's so easy how we can like silo people into one piece, but you know, even when, like the women that come through my program, it's like, you know, I talked to them initially, that's this is how I, you know, talk to people is as nurses, but they come into the into the group. And we're i It's like, the first thing that I talk about, it's like, in the first session with the group, it's like, we're not just here as nurses, like, some of you are moms, some of you are, you know, wives, some of you are dealing with all sorts of different situations in your life. And yes, nursing is what we all have in common. So we have that, that foundation, and that ground that we can share, and we can talk about, but let's face it, like our the rest of our life, is holding a lot of challenges too. So I think it's so important that we you know, as people who are helping helpers is that we're not just talking about the stresses of work, because it's so much, we're not one little piece like we are diverse, dynamic, just interrelated, so many different pieces to us. So I really love that. And so you've got the office space, and you've got got the plan to continue with training and I love that you're going to take a focus towards trauma based training because I really do think that at the heart of it, all of what, you know, our healing that needs to happen is his trauma. And I'm just gonna stop for a second as my dog is barking. Straight outside my window, too, but it'll be very curable. You guys can edit this obviously. Okay, or we're gonna dive in next. I think I'm just gonna, I'm gonna ask you a question about your younger versions. younger version of yourself, okay. Okay, so tell me, you know, I love this question of thinking back to when you were a brand new nurse just maybe coming either into nursing school or even just leaving nursing school. Now that you have, you know, all these years under your belt, all this experience and all this wisdom about the realities of what healthcare is and what nursing is. Is there any advice or insights that you would like to share with that younger version of you? Absolutely. I like to you mentioned earlier about, like, almost being robots. And it drives me wild to think that at one point, it was a badge of honor to me to not use the bathroom or eat for 12 hour shift. It is wild to me that there were days where I'd be like, Yeah, I made it through didn't even eat a thing. And just thinking to myself, My gosh, like why was this ever something that was encouraged for us? Like why was that a part of the nursing world? And so if I were ever to say back to my younger version of myself is like this No matter if it's a five minute break, just take it hide in the bathroom for five minutes if you have to, if you need to just take a moment and reset, and then also don't pick up too much overtime, pick up whatever overtime you feel like you're mentally capable of doing. I've seen so many nurses over the years go rightful in pickup tons of overtime, they have this idea of how we're supposed to be these, these machines. And then suddenly they get burnt out and have to move units because they're just thinking, I can't do this anymore. It's like, well, maybe we if we weren't being told that part of our role was to get burnt out and to pick up all these shifts and do the bare minimum self care for ourselves, even during our shifts, maybe we would last in the field longer. But the last piece of advice would be if you feel like something's wrong, listen to your body. Listen to your mind's telling you that something is wrong. And take a step back if you can. And I had to learn that the hard way, unfortunately. But now that I look back and just think like, man, there's so many times I should have probably stepped back just to kind of protect my mental health. Yeah, I, I would have way prior to 2020. Yeah, it's, you know, this Burnell badge of honor, that every nurse is striving to get as their first like, you know, I say this sarcastically but, but it's kind of true. Like, we would go in thinking that that's, like, that's a sign that we're doing a good job like that I'm really, I am really serving these people, because I am so burnt out and depressed and miserable. Like, those two Shouldn't they shouldn't correlate. They shouldn't have to be something that we strive for, for sure. And I think a lot of these conversations are about putting that to bed, and saying like this, this has to end because it's not sustainable, we will have a well, I mean, we kind of already do have a crumbling health care system, but but if we want to see anything sustain, we have to set these boundaries for ourselves. And coming into it, I think to set the stage for us, right? So that people are realistically telling us about what it's like in this job. And saying, don't push yourself like that, take it slow, slow and steady is going to get you you know, all the years that you want to put into this job. And, you know, the the insight that you have also of looking at 2020. And what happened for you then, and if you could translate that back to that younger version of saying like, don't, you know, don't push yourself like take those breaks don't always pick up, we don't always have to save the unit, right? We don't always have to be the ones that come in and fix all the problem. That's management's problem, they should be the ones that are seeing the staffing at our job to fill that I know easier said than done, because of the guilt and shame and everything that goes with that. But tell me a little bit about that. 2020, you had said about the adjustment disorder diagnosis, and I've heard that a couple times now. And so maybe it's something that you'd like to share a little bit with us about? Yeah, yeah, for sure. It's so funny, cuz I've known about adjustment disorder my entire career, because I know it's it's a diagnosis in the DSM, like our Bible of diagnoses, which within itself, it needs to be updated, for sure. But it's under the spectrum of post trauma, post traumatic stress disorder, but minus your life wasn't at risk at that time. So the incident with the bare minimum details is I was yelled at by a woman for over three hours. And this was nothing new. In my career, I get yelled at for a full 12 hours sometimes I have been physically assaulted. But in this case, something about the way that woman projected her angers and her frustrations and her meanness toward me based on her circumstances. It hit me in a way that I never thought it could. It triggered my fight or flight to fight. And I have never wanted to yell at a patient before. But something came over me. And it took everything within my being not to do it and that stifling of that fight or flight to the intensity completely. If I were to say like any type of like, comparative, like I felt like I broke my brain. It was the strangest thing a switch went off. And luckily at that time, I was working on a unit in which the person could be locked and I could detach, but I cried the remainder of my shift I was on with two Rockstar nurses I came into that shifting like we got this like it's a good day. And I cried for eight hours straight. And luckily it was a night shift. And so most of my patients were sleeping and I was able to kind of just take those brief moments and not be crying to attend to patient care. And then go back. But I've never had something like that happen ever. And I went home, and I could not stop crying. And this feels like an over exaggeration. I could not stop crying for weeks, if there was even a thought about a hospital I worked at. And I called WorkSafeBC. Because I said something is obviously very wrong. And I was crying on the phone during intake being like, I didn't even get hit. Nobody hit me. And I was so I was feeling so much guilt and shame associated with that, because why would someone be acting and reacting like this? Because she got yelled at. And looking back on that now the twisted ness of my thought process, that something was wrong with me, because I couldn't get I couldn't handle being screamed at like, maliciously screamed at. And I thought I was weird. I thought there's something wrong with me. But really, my fight or flight was triggered. So they set me up with a psychologist, and I received the diagnosis of adjustment disorder. I said, Now what they said, We're gonna hook you up with a counselor, I said, Well, I already am connected with someone that I was seeing, just for maintenance touch bases. And she performed EMDR with me for multiple, multiple months. So that's an eye movement, rapid desensitization or reprocessing and desensitization. And then they also hooked me up with an occupational therapist who helped me through months and months and months of exposure therapy, where I was continually three to four days a week, exposing myself to anxiety provoking stimulus, so that I could return to work. And the beginning step step of that was watching YouTube videos about mental health. I couldn't even think about mental health without crying. It was wild, I've never experienced thing so experienced and experienced something like that. I really hope never to do it again. Yeah, yeah. And I just, excuse me, as you're talking, I was just, you know, thinking about different people I've interviewed and many that have gone through EMDR exposure therapy through work safe. And programming and having also that diagnosis, and I just, I appreciate your sort of description of it. And like the, the understanding of like, it is a form of PTSD. But we, I think, because we have this comparison that we do, right, where like my situation, just like you did, right? You were like, she didn't even hit me, like, you know, you're trying to, like, justify or compare and, and that's, I think, our culture, our conditioning in our culture, right. But we, we dismiss our own experience, because it's not bad enough, like, especially in health care, because we see the worst of the worst. And you I mean, working in mental health, you've seen, like the extreme psychosis, right? Like, you've seen the extremes. And so we have this comparison, and then the shame and the guilt and all of those pieces wound up together. It's like, you know, it's so hard for us to get help. before it hits a point where our body is telling us, there's no other option. Now you, you know, for whatever reason, you weren't listening, and now I'm going to make you listen and I see this actually, all the time of nurses who just get to a point where they're now they're off work, because they can't cope anymore. They're just you know, either this kind of like emotional. floodgate has been snapped open and they can't they've lost control of it. Anger, they apathy, right depression, and just in these really plus physical manifestations. Yes, chest pain, right arrhythmias, digestive problems, the mute like, I mean, the list is endless. And, and it's like, how can we help educate our healers, our helpers to notice when things are trying to get their attention earlier, instead of waiting for the body to say, sorry, I tried to get your attention, but you're not listening. So here is something that you will have to listen to. Because it is I mean, I really believe that I noticed it in myself. Yeah, so what kind of what do you feel like we we need what is what are some of the, you know, big ideas that you have that that we could really look to, you know, in the future implement, to help our to help our helpers? Well, I think you're already doing a big chunk of that work in regards to having people share their stories. If we don't know that other people are struggling, we assume that we're the were the defect. We are the ones who were not the ones who are strong enough and I was so angry at that time when my brain broke. I was so mad. And I took that anger and was like, I'm telling everyone, I've got adjustment disorder. And that is because of my career. And because this is what needs to be shown to the world, because if I don't talk about it, because I've not heard about it, if I don't talk about it, no one else is going to talk about it. And I had written a blog post, and I posted I think, May of last year. Or I can't remember exactly what I posted, but it was about my adjustment disorder, the amount of coworkers and friends and people who do not know me who came across it, that messaged me being like, I cannot believe how much that resonated with me. And I've never heard someone tell their story. And that saddened me so deeply. But I knew it was true, because I could not find those stories either. And so just knowing that other people are experiencing, having peer support, having people talk about their experiences together, especially in group therapy, or any type of group format. It's so important at work, too, like ever since I've been back at work, which was October of 2020, the October 2020. Anytime an incident happens, if it's a code white, whatever that looks like, I say, are you okay? I do a touch base with every single person, I say, if you need to talk to me after this, because you don't feel comfortable saying it now. You shoot me a message, I'm here to listen. And the amount of people who've reached out afterwards has been incredible. And even people who have just said, if you need to take a minute to go just to another office and just take some time, that's okay. And just giving them that permission, that it's okay. We we can start to be able to tell ourselves that through self compassion, and not having those expectations that we can just power through everything. We're not meant to power through everything, especially violent incidents. Yeah. Yeah. And to like, kind of put to bed this this comparison game that we play of like, it wasn't that bad. I shouldn't be feeling this way. It's like, no, it was bad. And you do feel that way. So let's just, you know, let's be truthful with how we feel, instead of comparing and living in this shame, kind of thinking that we're the problem. And we're the failure, I think there is so much power in pure and group sharing. And, you know, it's, it's, it's there's two things that people always nurses always say to me, after any kind of big workshop that I put on, they'll say it feels, first of all, it's so good to know that you're a nurse that I don't have to explain to you what it's like, right. And as a counselor, you will find, I guarantee you will hear that over and over and over again, from nurses because they You step in with a counselor or some other help helper or healer that doesn't understand nursing, it's you can't really articulate it, right. Like we just we we get it, we just get it because we've been in it, but to explain it to somebody else. And that's exhausting, really to try to explain to somebody what it's like to be a boo, who's really all the time and yet still keep going back because you're being literally paid for it. Yes. And because we have this huge surging desire to help people so that we're willing to put ourselves in harm's way in order to do this job. I mean, it's just there's so many factors, but it's exhausting to try to explain that to somebody. And the second thing is that it's just feels so good to know that they're not alone. And because we do we have, you know, it's a reason that this podcast called and the silence because we have a profession that is suffering. And in silence, we don't talk about it because we either can't or we're afraid to because we don't want to be seen as that nurse, that weak nurse that can handle it, the shame, the stigma that you've already talked about all of those pieces. And I really, I truly believe that the more we share our stories, the more openly we are to have conversations like this, it will help new nurses it will help nurses who are struggling right now, to know that there is hope there is because if you and I can can do it, if you and I can find healing. So can anybody else. There's nothing that sets us apart. We're all a part of the same human race. Yes, we all have our own flavor of challenges and difficulties. But there is help, there is help. And we just have to find it in us to say I deserve help. I deserve to to receive the support that I need. I don't it doesn't have to be that bad. That now I need to get support because I don't have any other choice. Like just recognizing that I'm having a hard time and I'm going to get some support because I deserve it. So that's like I mean the message I wish I could just drive into people. But it takes sometimes it takes hitting that rock bottom kind of place, right? That's also the real well, and one of the other pieces is we have this assumption we know everything right? We're told you're you're a nurse. Now, you have all this knowledge, but knowledge is not implementation. So even if we have like a good basic knowledge about what what self care looks like, what mindfulness might be, it's still not implementation. It is So much harder to do the care for ourselves than it is to learn about to care for ourselves. And we think we're like we are programmed in our universities to be these superheroes. And so we don't think we need that stuff. We think we'll figure it out, we'll be fine. And I hate that. I hate that. And luckily, now, I'm not sure if it's universities across Canada. But the one here in Kelowna has been implementing smart nursing, where they are learning about mindfulness and the importance of reducing burnout, and they are getting taught those tools and being told, like as part of their project, is to start implementing it and report back on like, the progress they've been experiencing, which is really cool. Yeah, that's really exciting. Actually, that should be something that's implemented, and not given like a, you know, a huge project and paper to write about it, because it kind of defeats the purpose of, you know, the whole intention of learning about self care and self compassion. And then, but you're right, the implementation, I mean, how many nurses I've worked with that say, like, you know, if I was telling someone else, like, they've got all the advice, like you ask any nurse, they can, they can give you all the greatest advice, but yet, doing it for ourselves is so hard. Yeah. So yeah, we really need to break these cycles. And I do think that talking about it is a huge step in the right direction for that. Yeah, totally. Yes. 100%. Because if we don't talk about it, no one's gonna know we're gonna continue to suffer in silence, because for too ashamed, because we're the defects, if something if we're the one who can't go back to work for the defect. And I think that there is a lot of stigma around it. I'm not sure if as much now as it was in the past, but if you had to go off work, you were judged. And I know, I know, for a fact, and I will, I do not hold it against some of my colleagues. But I know that some of them were like, What is wrong with her, like, just got yelled at. But I had other colleagues who were like, wow, like, the fact that you knew you needed to take a step back is so incredible, like, good for you. And that made me feel like I could do the same thing, if I needed to call in sick the next day after a really bad code, or whatever that looks like. And I think there's There's stigma around it. There's, there's this assumption that we're on, incapable or unable. And if we're not already putting it on ourselves, there's definitely co workers in the field, who still have that belief, but I don't blame them for that. I don't blame that at all. And I think a part of that judgment, too, I mean, it may stem from the fact that they're struggling. And, and it's hard to put those pieces together when you're feeling hurt inside, and you don't know how to, you don't know how to get help you don't and you see somebody else, taking time for themselves. There's like this, what makes you so good that you get to have time off, like, while I'm still here, struggling and suffering. So again, that like, the more open we are communicating about these things, then yeah, the stigma, we can shut down, because that's the big, really, that's the big problem, why we don't talk, we don't talk about our issues and why we don't seek help. So the more openly we have these conversations, I really believe it's a it's a key, it's a key to all of this. Tell me like, is there? Is there anything else that you feel like you would like to share with nurses who are listening and it can even be to about how you are looking towards helping and what kind of services you're going to be offering and, and maybe how they can connect with you as well? Yeah, absolutely. Um, it additional advice wise, I can't really think of anything off the top of my head other than honestly, just take those moments to listen to yourself and and recognize if you need to take a step back, even if that just means not picking up as much overtime, or taking time off work speaking with whatever the the programs are, because they know every single province is different and like what type of support programs that are available or what your benefits cover. I know in British Columbia, we only have $900 a year for coverage for counseling, which of course barely covers anything at all. But either way, go into counseling going and doing those kinds of things. It's an investment in your mental health and your long term well being. But the other thing is, like I think, like you said earlier, having someone to go to who's already been in been in the role of nursing where you don't have to explain a thing. I think that is the asset that I'm going to bring as a counselor. So I will mostly at the beginning be doing individual counseling sessions. My practice officially just got incorporated. It's called another chapter counseling, Inc. Because my name is Paige and I thought it'd be hilarious if there was a book related title for my business. But I've also done a diploma in laughter therapy and I actually want to start doing group therapy specific towards bringing laughter and light into our lives, especially for healthcare providers. I mean, yeah, We have a generalized morbid sense of humor in comparison to a lot of other places. But I think it is, it is honestly and truly a survival and a coping mechanism bunnies shake when they have adrenaline like after they've had to go for a run, laughter and crying. Those are two physical reactions that we can do for ourselves that help us process whatever traumatic or difficult experiences we've just had. So I think it's just so important to add that laughter into our lives so that we can do it in our personal lives. And in our work lives, if we're able to even just see one different perspective shift, even if it's the tiniest or the most morbid. moment, if it helps us get through a day or a week, or whatever set is. It's, it's a win. So yeah, people can find me at another chapter.ca on Instagram, or another chapter.ca is my website. So people are more than welcome to reach out and ask questions. So good, so good. I just love the element of laughter. I mean, I try to be funny. I all the time, I sometimes I'm just laughing with myself, but especially on Zoom when everyone's muted, and you can't really tell him, Am I funny? Or is this just me, but we had in our, in our group, I have the program I run into, you know, we have a 12 week group that meets initially, and then some of the nurses stick on afterwards. And they join what I call the grad goddesses and, and we, we continue on together as a group and, and every month, and I bring in a guest speaker and I brought in a comedy coach twice. And the first time she came, it was like I should have really prepped her for for the nursing humor, because it's like, it's pretty inside, right? Like it's, you know, it's like our, our inside voices that we sometimes you know what a night shift, we will spew out to our coworkers, but for the most part, it's not like socially appropriate, right? And so she was just like, these are real things you guys are talking about? And I'm like, Man, I really should have prepped you for this. But it is so freakin funny. I've got up on stage before to say a joke. And then I'm like, Oh, this is only going to be funny for nurses. But you know what, I think that is a real stream for you like and bringing it into like a therapeutic type of environment too. There's so many benefits to that. And and you're right, we do have this morbid dark. What do they call it, like the gallows humor, I think is what, what they call and it's it's definitely like, woven into healthcare professions. But to bring it outside of that and like to, to learn to see that different perspective and to find the lighter side of life and not always take things so serious, I think is a real a real gift for sure. So because everything we do is serious. Everything every every person, every patient, every other professional we come across is actually serious, people are coming to hospital because they're not okay, they're not having a good time. But if I can also make a patient laugh with me, that is one of the biggest wins even in like the darkest moments where we could be even talking about suicide and then the two of us are like, cry laughing in an interview. And I'm like, you cannot get more therapeutic than that. Like you can not and they remember that they might not remember my name my face any of that, but they'll remember laughing and finding another way to look at their struggle. Yeah, yeah. So good. So good. Well, thank you so much for being here and sharing everything with us all of your wisdom and all of your experience and your struggles and, and how you have managed to pull yourself through. And I'm excited for people to start connecting with you and benefiting from your your services and just really you because this becomes you as the service and everything that comes with with Paige and how you can offer your your support and your healing to this community that really needs it. So thank you so well. And I'm going to be available to anyone who lives in British Columbia because I will also be doing virtual counseling once things open up it's probably about April 2022 When my practice will be open. So if anyone is interested BC wide, I will be available. Unfortunately my liability insurance only covers British Columbia, but hopefully that can change in the future. Yes, yeah, hopefully. Well, thank you so much. Thank you Yeah,