Create Scroll-Stopping Copy That Resonates With Your Audience

The best copy, like it's not created in your head, like it's not even super creative. It's being observant and taking the words, taking the language that they're using, and then using it like back to them you

This is the Entrepreneur School Podcast where we believe you can run a thriving business and still make your family a priority. This show is all about supporting you, the emerging or early stage Entrepreneur on your journey from solopreneur to CEO while wearing all of the other hats in your life. My name is Kelly Sinclair, and I'm a brand and marketing strategist who started a business with two kids under three. I'm a corporate PR girl turned entrepreneur after I learned the hard way that life is too short to waste doing things that burn you out on this show, you'll hear inspiring stories from other business owners on their journey and learn strategies to help you grow a profitable business while making it all fit into the life that you want. Welcome to Entrepreneur School.

Welcome to another amazing guest episode on entrepreneur school. My guest today is Megan Kachigan. She is an international copywriter and sales funnel strategist who gets more clicks and conversions for values based coaches and course creators, she has helped create ads for $250,000 launches crushed industry standards with 56% open rates and 9% click through rates. If this sounds like jibberish, you don't worry. We are going to break down the very basics of copywriting, as far as what it applies to, who it applies to, how to DIY, what some of the great strategies are, and some of the mistakes that you might be making as an entrepreneur when you're thinking about your copy and how that applies in the various different places that you put it in your communications. So this is for you, if you know nothing about copy, or if you're frustrated with copy and you're thinking about hiring a copywriter to help you, we are covering all of that today on this episode. It was super informative, really helpful, tactical tips that you're get from Megan. So enjoy the episode.

Hello, Megan. I'm so excited to have you on entrepreneur school today. Entrepreneur is a hard word to say sometimes, because we are going to dive into all things floppy writing, which is such an important skill for business owners, we don't realize how much we are doing this, and sometimes how challenging it can be to really get good at writing good copy for content that comes across in any form. So happy to have you here. Thank you for joining me.

So glad to be here. And yeah, coffee is a foundational skill that it doesn't leave you. You need it more and more as you grow in business. So for sure, good to invest in that now.

I was just thinking like I was in a program about over, like I was in it for like, over a year, and every single week we had a copy coach that we went to, like, and I went to almost every single call, because I was always like, how do I do this? And what like you'd always learn some little tip or trick around facing or bolding or writing a catchier headline, or any of those things in there just really are so many nuances to it that I think already it sounds really overwhelming. So how do we take the overwhelm out when people are doing copywriting for themselves, what are they even thinking about?

Yeah, oh my gosh. So where do we even begin? Yeah, it can feel totally overwhelming, and it's always nice to have a copywriter in your back pocket and like, have those weekly reviews, but if you don't have access to those, it's important to learn, maybe the foundations of the skill, or I love, like, part of my process even, is when I am just out on a walk, pushing the stroller, or, you know, whatever is going about my day, even just driving, commuting somewhere, I haven't Just keep, like, the, just like the Notes app on my phone, and I will talk to text as I'm, like, thinking about things, or thinking about, like, a coffee chat I had with another business owner and things that they were asking, or just like, I don't know, things that come up, like, Oh, that would be great for my audience to know. And I will just talk to text to, like, record it to the Notes app of my phone, like, while I'm doing something else, because, like, we don't have a lot of time, right? No, um, so, and that is, like, my rough version draft is just that talk to text while I'm doing something else, while I'm folding laundry, while I'm driving, while I'm going for a walk, while I'm like, at the gym. Like. Whatever it is. So that when I do have my time blocked time to, like, sit down and write that email or write that piece of social copy or write that like, whatever it is, then I already have something to work with when I just open up that Notes app of like, what my brain was already thinking about, and now I just need to, like, Okay, here's the hook, here's the call to action. Let me just like the body is mostly written, but let me just edit it now. And so writing feels like such, like so less daunting because the majority like the hard work is already done, like, while you were in flow, while you were doing something else, and then the sit down work like it doesn't feel like you're never staring at a blank page that like blinking cursor of death that you know, is almost mocking you there. Yeah? So you gotta just avoid that completely, because it's intimidating, like even for copywriters, you know. So we just don't ever start from a blank page. And I love talk to text as a trick too, because then you don't like sound too academic or sound too professional, or sound to this or to that. You just don't like you because you were talking, yes, naturally.

And I think that's a good point for you to highlight that really, when we're thinking about what our copy is, what it's supposed to do for us, it's supposed to, like, create trust and create connection with people, and the best way to do that is by sharing stories and being real and authentic. And so when you're just capturing a moment or a thought or a perspective of your own on something the way that you talk it out loud. I love that idea of capturing it that way, so that it's there for you to reference and figure out how you're going to work that into some form of content that you share.

Yeah, yeah, totally. And there is such a big ROI to being likable, to being human, to being like just yourself versus trying to be, I don't know, like, what you think you should be, what you know the influence or Guru in your industry is doing, but they're doing it their way, and you've got to do you do it your way. Yeah, there's definitely a lot of power in that. And your right people are going to be attracted to the real you. Yeah, so copywriting is about bringing out like the real you.

What a great permission slip to be sharing with the audience here, because that is the thing, is that when we think that there's a right and a wrong way to do something, that's when overwhelm really comes into play, right? And I love actually, when I have experts on the show who are saying that, like, you know, we've got some frameworks and there's some structure and some best practices, but ultimately, like infusing yourself and your own personality and your own way of doing things is what is going to make you stand out.

Yeah, absolutely. There's no replacement for your story, your experience, and there's other things that can make you or your offer unique too. But like, for sure, like, no one else has your story, no one else has your background and and the things, the unique gifts and values that you bring to the table.

Yeah. So when I think of copywriting personally, I usually am thinking about like, like the, I don't know what would the definition be, like, the strategically formed sentences that ultimately help guide someone from through a journey into a sale, like the end goal, whether that's with the particular piece of content that you're sharing now, or a bunch of pieces of content structured together, like an email sequence, or like a long form sales page, or like a series of social media posts that eventually have that call to action, like you say. So how is that? I guess, like it do? Should people be thinking about being a copywriter and copywriting with that sort of intention, and everything that they produce that's written?

Good question. So there is direct response copywriting, which is like, I want you to take an action. It has a call to action at the end there. Like, this is all leading to, I want you to take this next step, and there's also like brand copywriting, where you are creating brand awareness. You are speaking like your brand voice. You are maybe educating. Maybe people aren't solution aware yet. They like, know they have a problem, but they have no idea what that the solution could look like. So it might take a little bit more education for them to realize that the solution you have is the solution they need because they just don't like, they don't know what they don't know. Like, that's why they need to hire you, is because they just don't even know. But like you who are, like, you've been up the mountain and back down again, like, you know what's coming for them. So you can educate them on like, here is what you will. Experience, and then the direct response copywriting is when they're like, Okay, and here's how you can take the next step with me when you're ready.

Oh, those are, I didn't know, actually, like, the different labels. So that's a good distinction, because, like, yeah, like you said, brand spread copywriting and just creating that, like, consistent voice. I know that as a brand strategist, I understand, like, the importance of being consistent there, so that people like know what to expect, and they really feel like that they you know, can build a relationship with you, understand who you are and you're you're writing and you're speaking that the same way, across wherever you're, wherever the application is. So just to like, maybe break that down a little bit, we're talking about emails. We're talking about website copy. What else are we talking about?

Yeah, so website copy, you might, like, book a call or download my lead magnet as like, a call to action, but I don't know, like you also have so there's some overlap there too. Like, there's also brand copy on there, because they're getting to know you. Like your about page, but you also want them to take the next step with you. Sales page copy is obviously direct response. Like, you want them to take an action, take out their credit card, email, Poppy, I feel like it could go either way. I don't know. Standard would say, like, it's direct response, because there's typically a call to action. But there's some emails where it's like, you're truly just giving value. You don't have to necessarily sell in every email. Some people are on, you know, on the train of like, selling every email. Sell every day. Other people are like, sell one every four emails or two out of every five emails. And so there's no right or wrong answer. It's what is feels aligned to you, what makes sense for your audience. What cadence Have you currently been doing with your audience? Like, don't go from zero to hero, like, from no emails to like, email every day and sell every day, because that would be like, Whoa, a shock for your audience, and it's like, also hard for you, like, it's just not sustainable for you to go from not creating any emails to trying to have to write down every day. I feel like at the start an email could take someone like an hour to write, but then you can get a damn like, 25 minutes, 30 minutes, 15, 1015, minutes is the ideal to like, you know your audience so well. You know exactly what they need to share, and you can knock it out that quickly.

So what tips do you have? Because, like, that's always the theme for everybody that I talk to. It's always like in it, and I have a communications degree, so the background is like, what do people need to know? And who like always thinking about who you're talking to every time you're creating some kind of piece of content. So what are your tips for actually extracting that and getting to know your audience? Because this is one thing that can feel really challenging as you're getting started, or you're maybe shifting into something new with your business, it's like everything feels very one sided, and that you're just kind of like making some assumptions and guesses. So what are some of your tips there around really getting to know who your audience is?

Yeah, I think really it comes down to like, just having conversations with them. So whether that is interacting on comments, on posts that you're putting out, getting on coffee chats with those kinds of people, I don't know. Some people will, like, send out a survey, but that's often, like, very formal, or it's hard to get people to, like, actually take the time to do it, or they're just doing it because you're offering them, like a Starbucks gift card or something in exchange for it. So I actually don't love that. It depends on the business, I think, for meeting entrepreneurs in their first couple of years, I don't think it's the best way to do it. The best way, I think, is just getting out there and having those conversations, because conversations are going to lead to clients. Yeah, yeah. And some conversations could be like DM conversations. It could be coffee chat conversations on Zoom. It could be conversation like on comments, on posts, whether it's your own post or commenting on someone else's posts, or in a Facebook group your own or someone else's, but just getting out there and seeing what they're seeing, hearing like the questions they're asking, hearing the problems that they're talking about, that they're looking for solutions to, and then how do you uniquely solve that problem?

Because they've always heard it said that the best way to connect with somebody is to, like, speak their language. So when it comes to you actually writing that copy on your sales page or emails or whatnot, when you're using the language that they use, instead of what we normally do as the expert in the field, which is like, interpret it and then put it back out there in a way that's like, this is what we know that you need. Or we know that you should be thinking that that's skipping a step for them.

Yeah, you want them to feel like you're reading their journal, you're reading their mind, that you are like, Oh my gosh, they know exactly how I'm feeling, or I just thought that, or I literally just like journaled about that. And that's what you want them to think when they read your copy. And the best way to do that, like you said, is to use their own language back to them. So, like, the best copy, like it's not created in your head, like it's not even super creative. It's being observant and taking the words, taking the language that they're using, and then using it, like, back to them. I guess you can say you can use, like cupboard formulas or things to get you started in using their language, because the way you would say it as the expert might not be the way they say it as the person who doesn't know all that you know yet.

Yeah, absolutely. I think that we always skip a step. And I was talking with someone else earlier about just the way that your brain works, right? Once you know something, it's hard for you to remember what it was like when you didn't know that. And yeah, like, yeah. I think you just said, you know, you climb up and down, then you go back down, but you have to remember what it was like to be at that place the first time. And that can feel a little bit detached. So I feel like that's challenging for us to do,

Yeah, yeah, because it's like, this is your normal. But what's normal for you, like, is not normal for everyone else. And yeah, it's hard to it's sometimes, especially the longer you've been doing it, or even the more you've been educated in it, like working with PhDs, often they need a copywriter, not that because they're bad at copy or not because they're bad at writing. They're obviously very good at it, but because their level of knowledge is so up here. And how do we translate that so someone who doesn't have a PhD can understand it, and it's not dumbing it down, because your people, your audience, is not they're not dumb, they're not stupid, but it's translating in a way that everyday speak can understand it, because not all of us have PhDs, not all of us have super specialized information. And even if you don't have a PhD, like if you have a certification, if you have a degree, or like, whatever it is, even just experience, like your industry, like you develop kind of like industry language, I guess. Yeah. And somebody outside of that who needs your help doesn't necessarily speak that language. Yeah, that is one way a copywriter can be really helpful is just translating it for you, because you can't see that you're yourself, because you're in in that world, you're in your own normal and you need, kind of like, an intermediary to say, like, how do I translate that speak to, like, what people outside of that industry would say?

Because you're, like, filling in the blanks already yourself, right? And you're not when you communicate that to somebody else, it's like, what are What steps are you actually forgetting to share or forgetting that they have to go through first? So I'd love to, like, just flip this for a second. And do you have some observations that you make for entrepreneurs, and what some of their like, top copywriting mistakes are that we all naturally make.

Ooh, that's a good one. I think feeling like you have to write it in order, like in chronological order, or like, if you're writing an email, for example, you don't always have to write the subject by first or the hook first, and then the body and then the call to action, like you can reverse engineer and say, What do I need my call to action to be okay? Now, like, what do I need to talk about to, like, naturally lead to that call to action. And then, what is a hook? Or, oftentimes, I write the body first as, like, my talk to text, and then I pull out of that body, okay, boom. Here's the main idea. Here's the like, the thing that really captures my attention. I'm going to pull that out of the middle and make that the hook, and then rewrite it so it flows logically. It like, captures their curiosity, captures their attention, and then I get in the body of like, give them context for what that hook really meant, or why it matters to them and then have that lead to a call to action in email, like I usually do, the subject line last so you don't necessarily have to write in the order that people are going to read it in.

That's such a good tip, because I wouldn't have even thought that you were going to answer in terms of, like, the structure, the actual approach to how you're going to go out, about copywriting, I thought you were going to get, like, maybe you have that other mistake that's like, a little more of a technical one, like not having a headline, or not a call to action, or, like, I'm sure there's lots like that too.

Yeah, not having a headline call to action, I think. Staying out on the hook, or like, you're so, like, I'm so done with this, done writing this. And like, you write the body, but then if the hook doesn't capture their attention, then, like, no one even gets to read the body that you've worked so hard on. So I like to write out, like, if a hook doesn't stand out to me, or a headline doesn't, like, stand out, like, jump out to me right away. I will take time to, like, write out 510 to teach 20 headlines or hooks, and just trying to generate ideas like, what is going to make this compelling to people? What is going to stop the scroll? What is going to make them pay attention to this, versus everything else that is trying to grab at our attention? What is really going to serve this person? So it's worth spending as much time on the hook as you do on writing the rest of it, because if it doesn't capture their attention and they don't read the rest of it, then, like, what does it matter?

That's such a good point. I feel like, I think what the copy coach that I worked with in that program said it's like 80% of them that like the value of your sales pages. If the hook doesn't land, like meaning the very first thing that they read that they won't continue. And so then the rest just a waste, like you said. So beware. Write good hooks think about and what tips do you have around how to write good hooks and like, just and make sure that I'm defining this properly by what you mean by this, this is the like, first thing that people are going to see when they're engaging with this piece of content, be that the headline on the website or, like, the subject line, first couple lines of an email or a social post,

Yeah, yeah. It's often those first couple lines the thing that's going to stop their scroll that will grab their attention and get them to keep reading. Like the job of the hook is to get them to read for the next sentence, right? So tips for writing good hooks, it really comes down to knowing your audience super well, like your best friend, like your your little sister, that you want to like, love, but also protect and like you want the best for her, and like you're willing to fight for her. I think coming in with like that kind of approach is really helpful, so that you don't like back down or shy away from the gifts that you have to offer. Because oftentimes we can feel awkward about selling because we don't want to sound sleazy, and we've all received, like, the awful DMS that let me sell right away, like, no, so I don't, yeah, it's a good balance of like, you're not backing down, but you're not like being overbearing, either So writing a good hub, yeah, it's about knowing your audience super, super well. You can use, there's like, headline formulas out there that can be helpful just to start generating ideas. Keep, like, a swipe file, Bank of like, if you see a headline or subject line that you like, love, where that made you click or made you interested. I'll just like, keep a file of those and browse those for inspiration. And like, what was it about this that got my attention? What did I love that they really called out here? What made me feel something about this? Like, sentence, phrase, headline that they had in there, and that is really helpful to again, get inspiration. Obviously, this goes without saying, You're not plagiarizing. You're not just taking it, but how can you adapt that to what you are trying to say in your unique situation, or just use it as inspiration for for your hook or your headline that you're trying to write.

I love that tip about kind of analyzing why you liked something when you see it, and saving those I have an email folder called good copy, so I'm like, Oh, I really liked the sometimes I'm reading something from, like, from different angles, right? Like the do I want this thing that they're selling, or do I like the way they're presenting this thing that they're selling to me? Or even just some emails where you're like, how did she go from this random story about, like, handing to this conversation about joining this event that she has coming up, like, I It's like taking close leaves and like trying to sort of study that and and be curious about it while you know, knowing what you like, and then starting to apply it. It's, it's a work in progress, right? We're all gonna get better, like at everything that we do in life and in our business, we get better the more that we practice and the more that we experience it.

Yeah, yeah, totally. I have a folder in my Gmail called subject lines, and if I love a subject line, I will put it in there so that when I'm when I'm trying to write a great subject line, I can then just click on that folder, scroll through all of the ones that I've already loved to get inspiration. And it's a super easy way to do it. It like it's, you know, one click to get it over there.

And I think, like, what you were saying too is that the copy itself shouldn't be super literal. That's sometimes what we have a hard time to not do, is like, just get to the point, like, how do you, like, add some personality and

fun with it.

Yeah. Mm, hmm. And so are you are, what are you also saying? If I'm reading between the lines, there are really rules,

The rule that may be broken. So there's, I mean, there's a rule maybe, that you can consider them more guidelines, like, they like, if you took a copywriting course, like, there's definitely things that like rules that they could teach you that like are helpful to get you started, but then, once you have gotten in a momentum with copywriting, you then know how to bridge rules in a way where, like it still works, it still converts. Because, yeah, like we said, there's not one right way to do this. And I think the more personality you infuse, the more fun you have with it. Like people can feel that energy through your words. And if you're having fun, then like, people want to be a part of that. But if you're like, taking yourself too seriously, then people can sense that too.

Okay, so I feel like we've gone a lot into like, kind of supporting DIY in copywriting, because we do have to copyright a lot in our businesses, like, almost daily, doing some kind of communication, right? But if people are listening to this and going, okay, so when is a good time to actually engage a copywriter and, like, get support, what would you say to that?

Yeah, good question. So there are a couple of answers, except to that, I would say, if you are just so like, feel so stuck and so paralyzed, if you can do even just like, get on a call with a copywriter, or do like I do like a Voxer Power Hour. And it'll help people just kind of get a jump start of like, we can brainstorm endless ideas, endless stories for you to talk about. If you're like, I don't even know what to say. I you know, I know I should email with my list, but I'm not doing it. That is a great way to kind of just, yeah, jumpstart the process. I guess you could say another great time is if you have an email sequence, but it's not reading to sales, or you have a sales page, but maybe it's only like half written and now you feel stuck, or it's written but like and you put it out there, but it's not converting where your home pages and booking leads, then that would be a great time to rope in a copywriter, because you've already done a lot of the legwork, and you're often like, too close to your own business, to your own copy, to be able to see what's happening. And bringing in this like outside perspective, who's not a part of your business is really helpful to see what is going on, because it's likely that the problem is just in your blind spot. So by definition, like, no matter how much time you spend on a diet or how much you stress over it, you're just not going to see it. So having that extra perspective is super, super helpful. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So basically, wherever you're getting paralyzed and feel like I'm not making progress on this, whether you get a copywriter to, like, help you jumpstart or finish it for you or do it, just maybe it's a time as a bottleneck for you. Now, all those could be reasons to hire a copywriter in different capacities.

Yeah, I think that here. So Right? Like, we just have blind spots and sometimes even, like, years of practicing a particular skill set now, and for me, I have formal writing training and public relations. So I have, like, some I don't have marketing copywriting training is different, but I do have that same sense of, like, oh, I want to analyze, like, the sentence structure and like the we that they talk about this, and other people might be going, you're speaking complete gibberish when you say like that, right? So somebody to support is always a good idea. So if people want to reach out to you and connect with you, Megan, about your services and how you can help, let us know, and we'll make sure it's all in the show notes below.

Yes. Best way to learn about me and my services is at my website, which is megankachigan.com, and or you can also reach out to me on Facebook or LinkedIn again. Just search Megan Kachigan, and that will come up for you that's Kachigan with a K. Yes.

Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your tips and your insights on this wild west world called copywriting.

Absolutely.

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