The Up Side Of Down With Michelle Reittinger

Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of help without sight with your host Saylor Cooper and

Tyler Evans.

Yes, it is episode 14 A second episode of today. Actually, I'm here at a podcast content creation camp employee by artist Mexico. I know Tyler, he's not here, but maybe next time you can come right if you want. Well, on today's episode, on today's episode, we have a very special guest. She is very special lady who has been dealing with challenges related to mental illness since 1998. But despite this, she is still standing strong today. Please welcome Michelle Reittinger. Good. Michelle, it's good to have you on hold outside.

Thank you so much for having me. Yes, you bet.

So, in your bio, I read. As shortly a month before graduating college, you were diagnosed with bipolar disorder. And, you know, I won't get into the specifics. But I have, you know, I have seen, you know, from my perspective, you know, what that's like, it's, it's not easy to manage, but by all means, it's not impossible, you know, which is why you're here to share your success stories, because that's what helped. Well, that site is about sharing stories of overcoming life's challenges and adversity and coming on top. So, yeah, you take it away, hey, tell us what you got.

Okay, so yeah, I was I was diagnosed one month before graduation from college, back in 1988. And I, at the time, I had been dealing with pretty severe mood swings for about two years. I bet I, I thought there was that it was a moral failing on my part, you know, I kind of suspected, especially the last year that there was something wrong, but I kept feeling like I was making excuses for myself. And so I kept, I bought a whole bunch of self help books, you know, I was trying to discipline myself, I was trying to, you know, and I, you know, with mental illness, you can't, you can't try your way out of you can't read self help books and fix it yourself. You know, there's an actual problem that's going on that you have no control over. And it was actually my, my parents and my aunt and uncle who lived near me, my parents were in another state. So my aunt and uncle who lived near me, were the ones that that really saw the mood cycles, and could see that there was something severely wrong. And they finally convinced me to go see a doctor. And when I went to the doctor, I remember having really mixed feelings about the diagnosis, because on the one hand, I was relieved, because there was an explanation for what was going on, it was not my fault. That on the other end, I thought, I felt like he was telling me I was broken. And I honestly believed that nobody was gonna want me like that. I felt like when I walked out of there, I thought, who's gonna want me, you know, like, I'm, this means I'm broken. And, and I, my doctor told me at that initial visit, he's like, don't worry, you just find the right medications, and you'll be fine. And so I believed him, and I tried diligently for the next 10 years to take medications, because I thought that's gonna save me, I'm going to be, I'm going to take find the right medication combination, and I will get better. And it was pretty awful for 10 years, because I didn't tolerate medication very well. I took everything that doctors prescribed to me that I had horrible side effects with almost every medication that I took side effects that were almost worse than the disorder itself. Sometimes we're worse than the disorder itself. And I just kept getting progressively worse. And 10 years after my initial diagnosis, I was hospitalized three different times. And two different states. I had two little children at the time, I had a four year old and a two year old. And my husband, you know, was trying to go to graduate school and, you know, it was it was like the worst possible scenario for me to have a breakdown but you don't get to control when that happens. And they did in one of my hospitalizations, they did electroconvulsive therapy on me. It was a full they call it a four full course. So I'd have three times a week for four weeks. And during that time, I had my first psychotic episode which changed my diagnosis from bipolar one to bipolar, bipolar two to bipolar one. And and it was it was awful, awful, awful, awful. That whole year was terrible. You know, it was I was having severe mood swings, like going from one day thinking and I was planning on getting tattoos is actually something that I think is pretty common for people with bipolar disorder because when you're manic, that something for whatever reason, it's there. retracted. And so I kept like, trying to go get tattoos and I kept getting stopped by people and, and there are a lot of symptoms, there are a lot of things that I went through during that time. And I don't know if you need to put a trigger warning on this episode, but I made two attempts during that year on my wife, and I got to a point where I just felt like there was no hope anymore. You know, I really honestly believed that my husband and my children would be better off if I were gone. It wasn't that the suicidal thing that came on, suddenly, it was something that came on really gradually, you know, it started with nightmares about dying. And I would have really bad vivid nightmares about dying, and wake up in the morning feeling terrible inside. And it progressed to daydreams, you know, I would be driving down the road, and my mind would be like, coming up with scenarios for how I could die, you know, and at first I was, like, horrified by it. And then gradually, I started thinking, you know, that wouldn't be so bad. And, and just gradually, gradually, in my mind kept lying to me, telling me, you know, your husband would be better off if you had a different way for your children may be better off if that, you know, you're ruining their life. And the turning point for me, was after my third hospitalization, this was after the second attempt in my third hospitalization, I was watching my children have a very clear memory of this day, I was watching my children play. And I had a very clear thought come into my head, if you succeed and taking your life, you will ruin your daughter's life. Not not my children, not my husband, my daughter, I knew specifically that it would ruin her life. And I remember being shocked by that thought, because I really believed that they'd be better off like, it wasn't like I, I would be better off, I believe they would be better off because they mattered to me more than anything, my children were the most important thing to me in my life, and I wanted what was best for them. And I remember, as soon as I had that thought I knew it was true. Because she was such a loving, caring little girl. And I knew that she would blame herself and that would ruin her life. And so from that point on, I was determined to survive, I thought, if the only thing I can do is survive my life, I will do that for my daughter. Sorry, I'm getting emotional.

Not so not being a close, obviously, for you, but mainly for your daughter, because she, if you were taking a live, she wouldn't have been, she couldn't handle it.

Yeah, it would have ruined her life. And at the time, that gave me the hope that I needed to keep trying, like I, I didn't believe I had any value anymore. You know, when when you when somebody gets to that point, you feel so horrible about yourself that you don't believe that your life has value, you don't believe you have value and you don't believe your life has value. And so it wasn't worth trying for me. But for in my mind, I'm not saying that it wasn't, but in my mind, I wasn't worth trying for. But my daughter was, and the moment that I realized that it was going to hurt her. If I ended my life, then I was determined that I was I was going to try for her. And the thing that changed for me at that point was that I decided that I was never going to let let suicidal ideation or suicidal thoughts stay unchecked, I was going to ask somebody for help if I had those thoughts, because I hadn't done that before. I hadn't told people because I was embarrassed by the thoughts. I was afraid of getting hospitalized, you know, I didn't want people to know that I was having those thoughts. And so I didn't tell people, and that's like having an intruder in your home. That's trying to hurt, you know, trying to hurt you and not doing anything about it. And so from that point on, that was my commitment is if I ever had a thought like that, I would ask for help. And then about let's see two years. Yeah, two years after that. So this was 2008. And in 2010, was when my doctor and I found the micronutrient treatment that he switched me to, that started changing things for me. It gave my brain what it needed to be balanced. And, and then it started, my brain started to heal. And then the following decade, I just started learning each of the different tools that I needed to use in my life, you know, the different changes I needed to make and the tools that I needed to do to use that would help me to learn how to live a healthy life. So it was a gradual process. And that's why I started sharing what I learned because I thought none of the things that I do are unique. It's not like anything special. I just didn't know how to do them. It took me a decade of like researching and studying and like learning to figure it out for myself. And so that's why I started my blog two years ago was because I thought it shouldn't be a mystery. Like this shouldn't be something hidden that people have to figure out for themselves. I want to tell people what I'm doing so that they can do it for themselves. So that's how I started my blog. And that's why I started reaching out to people and trying to help because I wanted people number one to know that there's hope you can live a healthy, balanced, productive life with bipolar.

Even good, even though it only As can be so, so bad, you know, because I'll just say like, I've, I don't have Bipolar myself, but I've seen others with the disorder. And, you know, I'm not gonna lie. I mean, it's overwhelming. Not just you, but to the family to the immediate family as well. And you always have to know that like, it's not. It's not you, it's the illness, it's taking hold of your life, and you just have to work and not allow it. To do

so. And it's, I think, one of the hardest things in that situation. So that year 2008, almost, I did my marriage, it almost ended my marriage, my husband, if he had left, I wouldn't have blamed him. It was horrible. Like, I would not blame my husband. No, I wouldn't have blamed him for leaving. I mean, it was hot. He was the one who had to stop me both times when I was making attempts. And it kind of like he kind of shut down emotionally for several years, it took us a long time to get back to a place of, of, you know, closeness in our marriage. I'm grateful to him that he didn't leave, but I wouldn't have blamed him if he had. And, and I think, oh, go ahead. Sorry.

And not only that, did you imagine your children as young as they want? They saw that, how could they process?

Well, and I, I had, I had not made any attempt, where they could have seen it. So they didn't know until they were teenagers about that. And I shared it with him just because I wanted them to know, since I was going to be talking about it in public, I needed to make sure that they knew you know what had happened. But um, you know, I think that's one of the hardest things with, you know, people who are related or close to somebody with bipolar disorder is that it's a very helpless feeling. You're watching somebody that you know, that you love suffered. And you can't do you know, a lot of times can't do anything to help them. You know, when you're in a manic state, for example, mania, you the person who has mania thinks they're rational. They're completely irrational, but they don't realize that they're irrational. And so, you know, I remember having huge arguments with my husband about, you know, I, one of my problems when I got manic was compulsive spending, like I would rally credit cards, that's really bad. In fact, during one of my hospitalizations, he didn't know that I had a credit card number memorized, and I was making online purchases in the hospital, and having stuff shipped to our house. I mean, it's I don't know why I had access to the internet, I was in the hospital, they shouldn't have let me on the computer. But it was, you know, it's, and I've been, I've been with people now that I'm balanced. I've been with people that are manic and seen that I know better than to say, Hey, I get manic, you know, because that's like, it's very triggering for somebody who's not willing to listen, my husband and I actually had to come up with a way to communicate when he saw mood cycles starting so that I wouldn't bite his head off. You know, because I would say, I want you to tell me, but then he would tell me and I'm like, No, I'm not, you know, and he's like, I am not telling you again, that's a trap. Like, I don't trust you anymore. But I, I really wanted to live well, I wanted to be able to be a you know, a healthy partner for my husband and a healthy mother for my children. And I noticed I say healthy and not good, because I don't like the term good or bad. You know, I feel like those are not productive terms to label ourselves with. But healthy is is a term you can use. And I want it to be mentally healthy for my husband and my children. And so that was one of the things like one of the things that I did over the years was developed, I call it a mental health emergency response plan or an ERP that I developed that has different pieces to it that helped me learn how to manage my, my mood cycles more effectively, so that they don't have such an intense effect on my husband and my children. And it shortens the duration of this mood cycle, because I'm being proactive about managing it rather than just kind of letting it take me for a ride, if that makes sense.

And so how do you how do you know? Like, when an episode is coming on, how do you know to stop it so that it won't get so out of hand?

Right? So what I what I started doing in the emergency response planning was telling you about I have something called an early warning system. And I started using a mood tracking app. And I use it very consistently when I first started I don't use it like three times a day anymore, I don't need to anymore. But when I first started using it, I was I was tracking my moods three times a day. And in this track, that app that I use, there's a free version called it's called bearable and the first thing that I started tracking was just my mood cycle and my energy level and then then I started you know adding once I got used to doing that then I started adding things in like social factors, you know, things to start identifying triggers. And what that did for me was helped me to start recognize Seeing what my symptoms were, so that I could start to recognize when I was entering a mood cycle. And when you catch it early, then you start to that helped me recognize, okay, I am starting to get manic right now, I need to be careful because I'm going to have thoughts that aren't rational. And so I would I started trusting my husband wore. And I would go to him and say, I'm thinking this, what do you think, you know, rather than trusting myself to make decisions during that period, I would talk to my husband and let him help kind of check me. But I had to choose to do that. For myself. It was something I because I didn't like, during the mania. Well, during the mania, you feel you know that some people feel everybody feels a little bit different for me, I just felt like I was so productive. And I was I had all these great ideas and stuff, and I would start huge projects. And I always started the project, and I would get all ramped up, and then I would crash. And the aftermath was disastrous, you know, I would see, oh, my gosh, what have I done, you know, I started this huge project, I've spent all this money, I would feel terrible. And then I would get severely depressed. Number one, because my chemical, my brain chemistry was depressing. But number two, because I was feeling terrible for the stuff that I've done during manic episode. And so it was really important for me to start learning how to identify like, I'm starting to get manic. And these are the things that I need to do during the manic episode to manage it so that I don't let myself get completely mad because I could, by not letting myself ramp up into that all the way that I managed it so that I didn't get like peak where I quit without a control. The same was true for the depressive episodes, like I have in the emergency response plan. I have something called auxiliary power. And auxiliary power is designed to identify what are the most important things that I need to do. And those are the things that get my emotional energy, and I let go the rest of it. And that's especially important as a mother for me, because I have children, my kids to take care of them. And so I, you know, I have, you know, Mike feeding my children, making sure they're safe, you know, when they got to school, making sure that they got to school, but those were the things that mattered most. And if I didn't shower, if I didn't, you know, if I didn't volunteer, if I had to let people know that I was, you know, where I was volunteering, that I couldn't help out, I would just cancel everything else. And make sure that the little bit of energy that I had went to the things that mattered most and the rest of it I let go of until I've recovered.

Yeah, deprioritize in a way. Yeah. Yeah.

And you have to do it before you're in that state. Because if you wait until you're in that state, then you start feeling bad about all the stuff you're not doing. But if you identify, Okay, when I'm getting depressed, I have limited emotional resources. And these are the things that I'm going to get those resources to. And the rest of it, I let go of, you know, and so it's really important to learn how to manage, you know, the mania and manage the depression so that you don't, because if you don't manage them, then they can get out of control. You know, situations where you're doing damage to yourself and relationships.

Yes. And then question, have you ever been times you've been unstable, like, well, you've, you've like, gotten upset and like gone off on your children? Especially?

Yeah, yeah, it was horrible. That was one of the worst parts of it. And I think that's probably the reason why I felt so strongly that my children would be better off with a different mother was because I called it rage like it was, I would have these almost out of body experiences where I was raging. And I felt like I was watching myself do it, I felt like I didn't have any control over what I was doing. And I would scream, like out of control of my children. And then I would stop afterwards, because I felt so bad about what I'd done, that I didn't feel like I had any control over what was happening. And that was, that was one of the worst parts of it, because I, I love my children, and I didn't want to hurt them. But I was like, raging at them in a way that was scary to them. You know, it was it was really frightening. It wasn't intentional,

of course, and I mean, the fact the fact that you will, you will remember it after, you know is good. So you'll know next time because I've always wondered. Especially when people have a manic episode. When it's all over? Do they remember it? Do they remember all of it? After the fact of just bits and pieces of it? It

depends. It depends on the experience you're having. So there is there is there are times when people when they're manic will they will dissociate. And when somebody dissociates then they may not remember everything that happened, but I I have only had one time and it was actually I don't think that it was actually dissociated. The doctor said it was I think it was because of the electroconvulsive therapy. That messed up my memory, because I have whole chunks of time that I don't remember, but it was all during that time. I knew that I was having electroconvulsive therapy. And I actually think that was the reason I don't remember that I've never had outside of that time period, when I was having the AC T. I haven't had dissociation. But I know that there are some people who have dissociation. And there's also, there's also times when people don't want to admit that they did it, because they're so embarrassed about it. And they don't want to talk about it. And so even if they even if they are remembering, they don't want to talk about it, because it's so humiliating to even acknowledge, let alone discuss

now, did ECG help you at all in the long run? No.

So and I know that there are some people that did, but for me, it actually exacerbated my, my disorder that I had an I had a psychotic episode, during the treatment, like, so the treatments were Monday, Wednesday, Friday, first thing in the morning, and about three weeks in because they have to take you off. As far as I know, they have to take you off of medication while you're going through it. Wow. So I was unmedicated. And I was, I was having my brain shocked three times a week, and three weeks, and I had a massive psychotic episode. And then I had to be hospitalized. From that point on, maybe it wasn't three weeks, and maybe it was two, I all of this is from other people telling me what happened, because I don't remember it. I don't remember most of that time period, because the AECT wiped a lot of my memory. I have I call I call them shadow memories, I have kind of weird, random bits and pieces of memory from that time period. But a lot of it I've had to have people telling me about and it took my husband years to talk about it. Like he wouldn't talk about it for about three years afterwards, like is such a traumatic thing for him to watch his wife go through that, that he he refused to discuss it. And so it took a long time before he was willing to even talk about it.

And wow, also, I can imagine when especially when you unstable, how could you care like for your children, especially, you know, from the time they were born, like were you able to care for them, and all that teacher has been? Well,

so it's the thing with bipolar disorder is it's not, you're not constantly unstable. So I had some time where I was stable, and I was functioning, and I was taking care of things. But that's another piece that I that I added into my my emergency response plan is your very first part of that is your, your emergency response team. It's like your support team, who are the people you can call him for help. And one of the most important pieces of that is understanding what their their, what their purpose is in that team. And then also setting clear boundaries for it. Because it's really important for the person who has the disorder to take responsibility for themselves. It's hard. But it's really important because they're ultimately the only person who can. I had, I had a couple of good good friends who loved me and who wanted to help me. And so when I was the times that I struggled the most was when I was depressed. It was I would have a really hard time functioning and I would, I would get out of bed and I would feed my kids and I would lay on the couch and have one arm around each child while they watch TV so that I could sleep because I wanted to make sure that they were safe. And so if they got up, they would wake me up by pulling my arm off. Or, you know, I pulling my arm out from around him if do you understand what I mean? Like, yeah, I was laying down with one child in each arm. But I found a friend of mine was the one who started it, she realized how depressed I was and how much I was struggling. And she offered to take my kids for a couple hours over to her house to play to let me sleep. And that was such a huge blessing for me because I was overwhelmed with guilt. Because I felt like I was a bad mom in that at that time. That was my thinking like, I'm a bad mother. And so having for and I didn't ask for help a lot from her maybe once a week, you know, she would come get my kids and take them to the park or take them, you know, over to her house to play. And it will give me a couple of hours where I could just sleep. And that's one of the things with depression, that you know, it's really important to understand there's a reason you're tired. You know, it's your body, your brain, you know, especially if you've gone if you've gone Manneken and depressed, your brain was in overdrive for a long time. And it kind of crashes and it needs sleep. It's like being sick, like when you're sick, you need sleep, when you're depressed, you need sleep, right? But you have to figure out how to make sure that the things that you need to do get done. And you still take care of yourself at the same time. And that was a huge blessing for me to have a couple of friends that I could call on and to say hey, you know, could you help me out for a couple hours and watch my kids so I can take a nap. And I you know so it's it's really important. The other piece in that in the emergent like your emergency response team was setting clear boundaries for my husband helping him understand what he could do and what he wasn't responsible for. He was not responsible for making me happy. And that was really important for him to understand was it wasn't history responsibility, it wasn't his fault that I was depressed. And it wasn't his responsibility to make me happy. And so helping him understand, like what he could do to help, you know, during the times when I was depressed, I would tell him, I'm really struggling right now I'm doing the best that I can. And we would, he would know, I'm not going to be able to keep up with the dishes, I'm not going to be able to keep up, you know, he would go on. Yeah, he would know the things that that he can help out with. But he also the other the final piece of of the emergency response plan is rebooting your system. So he also knew that I had a plan for getting myself back into a good space. And so that's why that plan was so important was before I felt like a victim. I felt like it was happening to me, and I didn't have any control. And so because you feel like a victim, you feel like everybody else just has to suffer because I'm suffering and I can't help it. But the reality is, is that damages relationships, yeah. And so I had to, I had to learn how to take responsibility for myself and show that I'm taking responsibility. So my husband could see she's struggling, that she's also doing this to take care of herself. And so then he was willing to partner with me, and he'd say, Okay, I will take this off of your plate right now while you're trying to get better. And he would help out knowing that it wasn't going to last forever. Does that make sense? Like,

yeah, absolutely. It makes sense. And so simply, maybe you can share some good news. When was your last severe, manic psychotic episode? Like how long have you been avoided? How long have you been officially stable?

I honestly don't remember the last psychotic episode i i have hypomania. Still only when I when I moved. The only thing that I haven't been able to figure out how to stop is is hypomania. When I moved for whatever reason, moving triggers hypomania in me, and I told my husband actually a couple days or a couple weeks ago, I'm kind of curious to see if I could manage it now. Because I've like, eliminated most of my triggers with other things, you know, through counseling and stuff, and, and I don't, I don't get hypomanic anymore, and even the depression. Anytime I have have had some depression, it's, I'm still able to function, most of them, you know, mostly and, and I can usually see a trigger that caused the depression. So I don't have depressive episodes that are caused by a chemical imbalance anymore. They're, they're circumstantial things that trigger and then I go work with my therapist and remove the trigger. And so I'm, I'm balanced now, like, I don't, I don't have manic episodes anymore. I have I don't have psychosis anymore. Yeah, and I do a lot of self care. You know, I'm very careful about my, my schedule, I'm very careful about my sleep. You know, I take my supplements diligently. And, and I live a balanced healthy life, you know, I have a very healthy normal life, my youngest daughter doesn't really know me, as imbalanced. My youngest daughter is eight years old, and she has never really experienced any serious, manic or depression.

Oh, wow. And that's really good. So, you So okay, so I understand you still have hypo manic episodes when, like you routines change,

when you move, like, move from one state to another,

and when and so when you move, yeah, but they're not they don't last long, and they

Well, so the hypomania is I just get hypo manic, and my hypomania is, like, I have a hard time sleeping, my brain won't shut off, you know, those are the those are the things and that, I don't know why moving triggers that, you know, we've moved six times in our marriage, and every single time I get hypomanic during the move, and then I crash afterwards. But knowing that the thing that's helpful about it, though, is that knowing that it's going to happen, I plan for it. And so I know I'm gonna get hypomanic, you know, when I when I move, and then afterwards there will be a depression. And I know how to manage the depression so it doesn't get prolonged, you know, so I know how to manage it. So that I feel from it and I just recover and then I move on with my life.

Wow. Wow. And so at least for hypomania, is not severe. You even playing more now, so that doesn't happen.

Yeah. I don't want to move when you don't really want to move. I just curious. I'm just curious to see like, if I could manage it this time.

Where do you live now?

We live in Utah.

Oh, Utah. Oh, yeah. I'm in Texas.

Yeah, yeah, we've moved six times in our marriage, and I don't want to move any more like I would, just to stay in one spot. Oh, not that. I mean, I love Utah, but it's not necessarily because I love Utah. I just don't want to move anymore. Right? got ready to be settled? I don't

blame you. And and could you say your marriage is blissful now? Oh, absolutely,

yeah, in fact. So for years, I kept asking my husband if he'd be willing to go to counseling with me, because I knew that there had been serious damage to the relationship, you know, in the year, the time leading up to 2008, especially in 2008. But my husband, just he really had a hard time with the idea of going to counseling, he, he's a very private person, he doesn't like opening up to strangers in that. But back in 2001 2021, he finally came to me and said he was ready. And so we did some marriage counseling, and it was really beneficial. And we, we have a very healthy relationship now. And I'm so grateful to him, I'm really grateful that he stuck it out. Like I said, I wouldn't have blamed him if he'd left, you know, I even have a really rough.

Imagine where your children would have gone if he will go.

Well, and I The other thing that was while he probably would have taken them with him. Yeah, I don't think he would have left our kids with me at that time. You know, I was not, I was not a healthy person at the time. But that was the other thing that I did was a few years back, I had both of my two older children and in therapy, just to allow them an opportunity. And I and I told them both, you know, I think that you're have some emotional wounding from your childhood from me, and I want you to talk about it, I want you to talk to your therapist about it, I want you you know, if you need me to come into a session, I will. But it was really important to me, you know, one of the things that was hard for me when I went through, you know, during therapy, and that was feeling disloyal, if I needed to talk to about somebody that was close to me. And it took time for me to understand that it's not about like blaming the other person or whatever, it's about recognizing there was a wound and healing the wound. So I, I took my children to therapy, and I told them, please talk about your mother, like, talk about the problems that you had, from, you know, whatever problems might have come up, I want you to talk about it, and don't feel like it's gonna hurt my feelings don't feel like it's, you know, it was really important for me to apologize to them, and also provide them with the opportunity for healing, because even though I didn't do it on purpose, I had caused harm to my children.

Absolutely. You did it. It wasn't you, per se, it wasn't intentional, you did cause harm, and you know, you need to, you need to bind up those wounds, you know, right. And, and so Wow. And by now, you're your coach, you help other mothers have Bipolar mental illness. That's what you're doing, like, being on Yahoo.

Yep, I started my blog two years ago. And I have that emergency response plan that I told you about, I actually came up with a guide to teach other people how to develop that and it's free on my website, people can go in and get that and learn how to how to proactively manage their mood cycles. And then next year, next year, I'm watching the outsiders trade program that just teaches the method that I use to live a healthy, balanced, productive life with bipolar.

Awesome, wonderful. Well, I'm now Tyler, do you have any questions for a guest? I know you've been silent majority of time, so I will give you the floor.

Yeah, why don't you have the shock therapy.

I was so severely depressed that they said that was the only way to overcome it the way that the doctors explained it was that it was like my brain was like a computer that had frozen and it needed to be rebooted. That's that's the way they described it. And at the time, I was so severely depressed, I almost couldn't think I I had been depressed, like severely depressed for months. And it was actually the the pastor of our church that told my husband you need to hospitalized or she's had she's had a breakdown and you need to put her in the hospital. And my husband was about to go out of the country. And so they sent me to another state where my family was with my children and put me in the hospital there that's why I was hospitalized in multiple states and and that's what the doctors there wanted to do is they wanted to do what you can also therapy and I didn't I you know, I don't think that I I don't looking back I don't think that I would have made a different decision. Knowing what I knew at that time because I didn't know any better. Like I didn't know. I needed help. I was severely depressed I couldn't function I had a had a major breakdown. And that was what they said was going to help me. Wow.

Wow. Was electrical convulsive therapy was that to ultimately control epilepsy?

Well, actually what it's doing is causing a seizure in your brain. So, electroconvulsive therapy causes your brain disease. And I am not an expert on, on the theory behind it, but but my understanding based on what I was told is that you are trying to reset brain, you're trying to it's stuck in a certain state and you're trying to reset it. So they cause your brain disease. That's why people, you know, somebody who has a seizure will have a lot of times will have memory loss. That's why I lost my memory for all that time. And I, I some of the after effects were really uncomfortable to like, I couldn't remember my son's birthday for years after that, like I would have to ask people at my son's birthday was, I would get stuck on my signature halfway through, and I couldn't remember what I was supposed to do next. Like I had some really weird, uncomfortable, and it was really, it was really hard to have caused all that damage during that time and not remember it. Like I had no memory of what had happened during that time. But I had caused, it's like blacking out and and your body is doing all this stuff. And you wake up and there's damage all around you. You have no memory of what happened. That's what it felt like. So

basically, the treat that therapy, I guess it can also be used to diagnose epilepsy. Is that right? Because another EEG cam? Yeah, I don't think electronic stuff like that.

It's a diagnostic tool. I don't I don't know for sure. So I don't believe it's a diagnostic tool. I believe that it's strictly a treatment. I don't know if it's used to treat other things. And I do know that there are some people who say that it worked well, I know Carrie Fisher used it, you know, when she said that it was helpful to her. But it was not a positive experience. For me, it was a very negative experience for me.

So you were basically having seizures. Yeah,

they were forcing seizures in my brain.

Okay. Wow. I don't know why you would want to do that, though. I mean, it's still kind of interesting to me. Well,

you know, I think a lot of I think a lot of the treatment of these disorders, bipolar and you know, that are are attempting to treat something that is really hard to understand. You know, I yeah, I've had a lot of people say that there are different, you know, a lot of different people give me different explanations for bipolar disorder. For me, I'm confident that there's something out of balance in my brain. Because the micronutrient treatment that I took, that I take, bounced my brain chemicals, like it bounced my brain out so that it started functioning in a healthy way. And I have tried going off of it over the past 12 years. And I started having the symptoms again. And so I know that that works for me. And you know, so I do believe that there is something chemical going on in your brain. But I'm you know, I also know, so I've read that the other thing is, I've done a ton of research personally, just because I was trying to learn how to live well. And I've read books about severe trauma, and severe trauma can cause brain can cause the brain chemistry to get altered. And that can cause you know, cause bipolar disorder, it can cause depression, it can cause anxiety. And I know that. So I don't know, I think that there, I think that there is a genuine desire on the part of the medical doctors to try and help people. But I think sometimes I think it's just guessing what's going to help.

Yeah, well, I do believe that I do believe that emotional trauma can trigger bipolar. It seems like sailor here, you know, Thailand.

Well, I will tell you from my personal experience that I was when I was 19 years old. So I was diagnosed at 24. And at 19 years old, I was married, not my current husband, I was married before and my husband was abusive. Wow. That triggered the onset. So I have in high school, I can see like now that I once I got diagnosed, I could look back at high school and see, I had symptoms of bipolar, they just weren't as intense. So when I was younger, I had symptoms, but I just everybody just thought it was a really emotional kid. But I can go back and I can I can track it. I know I can track the mood cycles from when I was a teenager. But when I went through the trauma of the abusive marriage that caused the full onset of the entire of the actual illness. And so after that was when I got I got severely depressed, and I started getting manic, and I would then I started cycling. And so it the trauma triggered the full onset of the disorder even though there were late, you know, kind of more minor symptoms when I was younger, that the trauma itself triggered the false thoughts that have the full disorder.

Exactly, exactly. How can can so there's any of your family member, do they family members? Do they have bipolar disorder? Because I heard it can be genetic as well.

Yeah, there's my I have a sibling who has it and then I also have my understanding is my grandmother did it. The thing is, is My grandmother was in and out of the hospital growing up and nobody talks about it. People just talking about grandma was sick. But nobody talked about what she was sick with. Yeah. And so she was an I, she had all of the I've been told that she had bipolar disorder, but I've never had long discussions, because a lot of people in my family don't want to talk about it, which is, I understand, but my grandmother had, like, when she died, she had a whole closet of clothes that she purchased that still had the tags on it. She would get manic and go shop, you know, and then she would get depressed and not be able to get out of bed, you know. And so, but nobody talked about it, because nobody talked about it. Nobody recognized the symptoms in me. Yeah, and that's one of the reasons why I'm so open. Because I'm like, This is not something to be ashamed of, you know.

Because a lot of people, they don't talk about bipolar mental health, because I get it, you know, this, this stigma, that's there, you know, has mental illness, it's not a physical womb. It's internal. And, of course, other people, they can't fit, since they can't physically see that I'll think, Oh, if someone has no illness, you know, the, the messed up? I mean, they are about like, it's not the fault. You know, it's not, it's not then make sense.

So, and also, if you look at the way that it's portrayed in the media, yeah, you know, most of the most recent, the most recent example is Kanye West. You know, he's, he's been saying things that seem kind of, you know, a little bit out there and stuff. And so everybody's talking about, well, he's bipolar. And I thought, that is not representative of the entire bipolar community. Like, I don't know, if he's got if he's been treated. I don't know, you know, I don't know, you know, but that doesn't mean that that's what your life is, you know, you're you're saying irrational things are, are things that are controversial all the time, you know, and, and then if you look at it, and movies, you know, movies want things that seem exciting, or controversial, or whatever. And so when they represent somebody, that Spike has bipolar disorder in the movies, they represent Him as somebody, you know, extremely unstable, always toxic, you know, ruining relationships, and that and so, we develop this idea that this, that they're a crazy person, that they're toxic, you know, all of these really negative things. And so it makes people not want to get diagnosed because they don't want to hear that's why my reaction was the way it was when I got diagnosed. Because the only time I'd ever heard of anybody with bipolar disorder were crazy people. Wow, no, and I'm like, I don't want to be crazy. You know, I don't want that to be me.

No, I hear you. So you have two children. Right?

I have. I have three. Yeah. My, well, I have, I have four. My oldest is my stepson. And then I've got three, three children that are my biological children. So but they pretty doggish No, I have a daughter. And she's in college now. And then we have a son, and youngest Mangus is a daughter. I got a little Caboose. Wow.

Well, you seem to live a very good life. Well, you know, if you don't have really don't have anything else. That's title if you don't have any of the questions. I don't for now, but what I like to do is I know you're limited on time, but what I like to do is I asked all my all my guests on the podcast, this question. Anybody who's struggling right now, particularly with bipolar disorder, any mental illness? What advice would you give to them to lie to the top?

Ask for help number one. I think that's the hardest thing is that it's I was so embarrassed for so long, even after I got diagnosed like it was I felt really ashamed that the symptoms that I had, I felt ashamed of the behaviors, I felt a lot of shame and embarrassment. And so I really still struggled asking for help. And, and the other thing that I would say is your life matters. You matter, you matter, and your life matters, and it will get better done, even if it feels even if it feels hopeless, reach out and ask for help. You know, I started a Facebook group for moms with bipolar disorder, you know, our prospective moms with bipolar disorder to try and create a community of hope and encouragement. There are there are people out there that want to help you even if you don't have family members that can help there are people out there that want to help you because your life matters, and you can live while with your disorder.

And now for the family members, watching a loved one go live once go through it. It's just just as overwhelming as as to the tuba. Posting. The people itself will have the illness and I guess the advice you would give them is just stay strong. And I know it's hard but Your support may save a life. Right?

Yeah. And I think that I would encourage, if there's a if it's a close family member, like a spouse, or you know, a sibling or a parent, I would encourage them to seek counseling to help learn how to set healthy boundaries, because it can be really distressing to have somebody suffering that's close to you, and you can put a lot of effort and end up hurting yourself as well. And that doesn't help the person

you gotta take. You always had to take care of yourself as well. Yeah. Well, Tyler, do you have anything else?

Oh, um, you know, going back to what you said about how it's not internal, the mental illnesses, not external, rather, excuse me, but internal. Yeah, it's in the brain. But it's still technically, like, there is something going on chemically, within within it. And so in a sense, it is physiological, in a sense, even though it's internal, even though it's in the brain, but it's still physiological.

I think he I think it's less, I think it's considered less socially acceptable to be mentally ill though. I think that's one of the hard things is, it's it's harder to grasp, you know, I, I use the analogy of, of somebody having diabetes. Doctor, my doctor helped me with that one time, he said, it's like having diabetes. And I know, I've heard other people say, it's not that I really believe that it is, you know, there's, your brain is missing something to function in a healthy way, you have to figure out what your brain needs, so that it'll function in a healthy way. And then you have to make lifestyle changes in order to make sure that you take care of yourself, you know, I know people that have type one diabetes, and the, they have to take insulin and but they also have to have, there's lifestyle changes that they had to make. They had to accept responsibility for themselves in order to live be able to live healthy with their disorder. And it's the same type of thing. Yes, it's

the same thing. Well,

generally, type one diabetes has to do with the immune system attacking the pancreas. But type two is more or less the lifestyle part.

Well, but I, my friend, that was I had a couple of friends who have type one diabetes that I interviewed just to understand it better. And, and they there are life, like when I say lifestyle changes, like they have to be very conscientious about what they're eating. You know, they have to be very careful about what they tell, you know, manage. That's what I mean by lifestyle changes. I'm not talking about type two diabetes, because type two diabetes is something that you could cause in yourself, whereas type one diabetes is something that just happens to you. You don't you don't choose to have you know what I mean? Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And type two diabetes is more or less just insulin resistance in general. Right. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, but it seems like if you develop too much sugar in the brain, yeah. It could trigger you know that. Too much sugar can trigger can trigger. What's called dab a diabetic seizures can trigger other things to popolo, or potentially depression. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I know, it can trigger depression. Too much blood sugar can. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So if you don't live healthy, you could potentially be jeopardizing your mental health. Yeah, exactly. So

I was nothing else. And thanks so much for being on help without site, giving our viewers help out there. Give it up for the shout. Lighten.

Thank you so much.