The Power of Forgiveness - A Conversation with Anna Ditchburn

Welcome to the joyful journey podcast. If you're looking for more clarity in your life, clarity of purpose or how to activate that purpose, and you are someone who wants to operate from your highest self to be a force for good, you know this world craves, then this is the show for you. I'm Anita Adams, your host and guide to finding clarity and creating a life you love. Let's tap into our inner wisdom, access our highest self and unleash joy. As we do this, we raise our vibration and heighten the collective consciousness. And that my friend, is the joyful journey. Let's dive in. Hey, joyful journey are Anita Adams here your host and today I have the great pleasure to introduce you to Anna ditchburn. Anna is a certified hypnotherapist and NLP practitioner. She's also a feminine energy and relation expert, and the host of another podcast that I encourage you to check out happy on the inside. One of Anna's gifts is her ability to empower others with her stories of courage, healing and forgiveness. We're going to take a deeper dive into the theme of forgiveness today as forgiveness plays such an important role in our joyful journey to our best lives. First, let me tell you a little more about Anna's history and why she's the perfect guest to share insights on the journey to healing and forgiveness. When Anna was 10 years old, a new father figure came into her life after her biological father abandoned her at four years old. At first, her new stepfather seemed a knight in shining armor, a man who provided for this broken family. Soon however, his true colors were revealed. her stepfather was a military man who became verbally abusive, ruled with an iron fist, and ultimately committed the worst of crimes systematic sexual abuse of Anna from the age of 15 until 21. This abuse resulted in two pregnancies that then became force illegal abortions. Even after Anna was able to flee the grip of tyranny, an enduring legacy of 16 consecutive miscarriages followed and direct a direct result of the botched abortion. This is Anna's old story. Today. Anna is the epitome of a success story, reclaiming her power, forgiving the complicit parties but never absolving them of their responsibilities. Anna works tirelessly to empower a generation of people to confront sexual abuse head on and to educate others how to heal, thrive and prevent this type of abuse from happening ever again. Anna is fearless in her approach, and continues to inspire those that hear her message of hope.

Anna, welcome to

the show. And thank you so much for being here. And being someone who stands in courage who fearlessly shares her story, and who was committed to helping others move from shame and pain to an empowered

life they loved.

Welcome, I knew that it's my absolute pleasure to be on your podcast. And thank you so much for providing such an amazing platform for me to share my story.

Well, you have a powerful story to share. And I've heard you know a number of your episodes and you are you are lifting people up. This is a it's a heavy topic. It's painful. It's painful for me to even read and absorb, absorb what you have gone through. And yet here you are courageously stepping out in the world sharing your story because you're wanting to help others move through the trauma and and to stop this these abuses that happen to so many so many people. So again, thank you for your courage.

Well, you know I need that when I was listening your introduction about my story. My my new my new story is being courageous and being fearless. And I can tell you, I wasn't like this before. I'm not even close, though. But I feel like when I went through my healing journey, and we will deep dive into this later on, I feel responsible now for those young, young girls and boys and women who are, who are being sexually abused, I feel responsible for their lives, because I know how, how it feels to be on the receiving end. And when you don't have a power, when you don't have a voice, when you so afraid, and so ashamed, and you don't have anyone to talk to. And so that's why when I found my why, when I found my purpose in this life, and I know you talk about this a lot, when I became clear on what I want to do, and usually our purpose in life comes from our biggest struggles in our childhood. That's what gives me this courage to tell my story,

I love that.

I think that's, that's so powerful to be able to sit back and to reflect on your own your own personal story and experiences in life. And you're like you say, your biggest struggles. And that's where you can find your Why. Why are you here? What, what is your story to share. And the more we share those hard stories, the easier it is for other people to come forward and share their stories, isn't it?

You won't believe how many people I had telling me or sharing their stories for the very first time and either after they've heard my story, when you show your vulnerability, you give people permission to open up. Because no one is perfect. Not even one person. Every every every single person has their story in life. And so when we share our story vulnerably but not just you know, from the place of the theme, or you know, from the place of complaining, but from the place of victory from the place of strength, it helps people to open up.

Elaborate on that a little bit. Because I don't I want more clarity on that talking about your story not from a place of victim but a place from victory. How do you do that when you've been so abused?

That's an amazing question, by the way.

Not an easy one, not an easy one to answer either I suspect.

You know, I need at the beginning, you mentioned that my story is really hard and hard to hear. And I know so many people can't take this burden. They can't make such a heavy information. And it's completely understandable because even my my own mother just walked away, because she didn't know how to react, what to do with that. But when I say share your story from the place of victory, what I'm saying? And I'm not saying Why don't you you completely overcome this trauma and then tell your story, not as soon as it happens. I want you to speak up. But when you go and share your story publicly, like I though, you need to make sure that there is something you can teach people about you can inspire them to speak up, you can empower them with knowledge, with your courage. Because when we are in a victim mentality, we tend to blame, blame, blame, blame, blame other people. In my situation, I forgave my, my biological father who left us when I was four. I forgive my mom for not being able to protect me. I forgive my perpetrator, my stepfather for doing this to me, and I knew that most importantly, I forgive myself. I was the person I was the only one who was blaming myself for everything that was happening in my life. And if I would share the story from the place of victim it would be really hard for people to take it on and and do some actions from for themselves for for their own life. But when you share your story from the place of victory, you give this hope to people, if she could go if she could overcome such a heavy abuse, that I can tell this to, when it's just happened to you, just happened to you, I would encourage you to tell it to, to the person you trust. 100%, like we vocal about this prevent these kinds of abuse from happening in the future. I was, I was quiet for nearly 20 years, because I was shut down at the beginning. And I was, I was taking my power away, my power was taking away from me. Now I understand that, if I will go back, I would definitely be vocal about this. So it's two different things. As soon as it happens, or as soon as you feel like you're on a thread, ask for help and, and keep asking until you get this help. But if it happened for a long time ago, I would really encourage you to do some healing journey first, and then open up.

I think that's a really important distinction to one understand, so the time lapse that can you know, something that's happened a long time ago, to do your inner work first. So you get to a place that you can talk about it. I imagine it's really important to when you go public, if you will, if you want to, like as you have, I imagined that it was a process for you sharing it with people you trust first and create it, having that safety and building that confidence in yourself. And having that strong ground groundwork in place first, and then being able to go bigger, wider, more public in front of people that you don't know and don't have necessarily that that that trust Foundation, like doing a plot doing a podcast, for instance, you know, like, I imagine you've done a lot of work before you got to a position where you can really speaker on a on a open platform like that.

And there's still work in progress, to be to be honest. And the more I share my story with people, the more healing process is happening in you know. But here I would love to share a quick story with you how I started my podcast. Oh, please,

I would love to hear that.

Well, my field, my field, my first podcast called world's best Trauma Recovery podcast. And it's not an ego thing. It's just it was my commitment to myself to make it the world's best Trauma Recovery podcast, to provide people a safe, safe environment where they can share their story. After three years of intensive healing, and therapy, I was finally feeling courageous to tell my mom what was happening. And my mom like is back in Russia. So I'm originally from Russia. It happened in Russia. And she was the hardest person for me to tell. Because I felt so close with your since since I was since I was born. And I was so afraid to sell here. Because my stepfather in shame so much inserted so much shame on me that if I ever sell here, she will hate me for breaking your woman's happiness. And I saw how much she loved him. So I was able to tell her and I need a how she reacted the way. I was always hoping she would react. She became so supportive and she asked me and why didn't you tell me before? And I said mom, I really really was afraid that you're gonna hate me for for doing this. She said if you are my daughter, I love you so much. And even if the whole world will be against you, I will always stay by your side. 20 years went in front of my eyes. And I thought wow, why did they do that? Why'd for such a long time to tell you? They will the weight of the whole world just came off my shoulders. And she became a mama bear. She Press criminal charges against my stepfather straightaway. She wanted to kill him, Anita. And I was suspended by Russian police to go back to Russia. I was living in Australia at those time to testify against my perpetrator. And I did. I did. And I reclaimed my, my voice back. Wow. But when I was in Russia, I realized we don't really have a huge childhood sexual abuse survivors support in my hometown, and I wanted to do something. And I, I contacted the biggest publishers, and I asked them, would you be interested to share my story? Only one journalist came back to me. Others other said, wall, this is too heavy. No, no, we can publish this. And he came and I said, Look, this is this is going to be really hard to hear. But I want to do this because I remember myself being alone. And going to police wasn't an option. Because when you're a young girl, imagine and use you just being sexually abused. The level of the level of shame and the level of fear is so high that you you just you can't it's crippling you. It's holding you. It's, it's it's like it's a protection mechanism of your body. You can't you just freeze. And my article went published when, when published in a few months, and I left my email address saying, girls, if you have no one to talk to send me an email. I need a my inbox exploded with hundreds and hundreds of her mouth. And so many women was saying just thank you so much for opening up. This happened to me and 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 50 years ago, and I still struggle with that. And I just realized how many women and men out there suffering in silence. I would say suffering in silence because I knew that what's happening, the longer we keep those negative emotions and feelings in, in our body. It's like a cancer to our soul. The more it eats us from the inside, the more it poisoned us from inside. We might not even realize it. But if you will look back at your life, you will understand some of the patterns and your behavior. Why would you react? What are those triggers for you? And when the power when the article when published. And I just realized, wow, I am actually one in a 1000s of people in my hometown, who is fearless enough to tell the story. And I just decided to help to help those women and kids who don't have a voice. And I wanted to become the voice for them. So that's how my podcast got was born. That's beautiful.

It's such a powerful story. How old were you

when you wrote that

article? And that was published? Or how long ago was that?

It was in September 2021.

Okay, just a few years ago,

wow. A year or so.

Wow. And and this is almost 20 years after? Did I catch that right almost 20 years after the the abuse Atos

abuse the first

versus the first abuse okay. Yeah. Okay. I can imagine the response like when you were telling me this story and when all the emails started to flood in inward that

must have them must have felt

incredible in the sense of validation for one specially when you had so many other journalists saying no, no, no. And then thank God one said yes. And then you had this response of so many women or people maybe young boys as well reaching out and letting you know of their their story. I can imagine how that would move you into action. And again, I just want to thank you for being a woman of action. Who wants to make a difference in the world because like you said, there's so many you know that these tragedies happen to so many people and you're one and 1000s Who wants to step forward and make a difference to it. In the world to others, and and the more you speak up, the more it empowers others to, to find their voice. So that's some again, just thank you. Anna, you,

you talked about forgiving, and but not absolving people of Vinton. There it is.

And I think that's a really important piece. Can you talk a little bit more about that because I think a lot of people say I cannot forgive, I'm not forgiving, that you're saying forgive but don't insult absolve. So just talk a little bit about that, and what the importance of forgiving but but maybe not forgetting, forgetting, forgiving, but not forgetting forgiving, but not letting people get be absorbed.

You know, when when someone I felt someone was telling me, you know, just forgive, forget and move on. Doesn't work like this. Now, it doesn't work like this. It's three different components. Forgive, forget and move on. Forgiveness for me, comes from the inside. It's something that you keep inside. I forgave all those bodies involved for myself, for my inner happiness, because I need forgiveness, not being able to forgive, it's like drinking poison, and expecting other people to die. Not being able to forgive, it's like you chained yourself to this person who did it to you. And you see it in one camera and you constantly facing. And plus, when you're not able to forgive you. You are constantly wasting and sending your energy to this person by thinking about him by holding this anger towards him. There is a reason for people. When I became a hypnotherapist I realized that there is a reason for people, they think if they don't forgive, they, they won't be able to keep people accountable. It's a completely different thing I had to forgive first, to be able to face this trauma, to be able to face my perpetrator to be able to forgive myself. When you forgive, it's like you free yourself, you break this chain, and you let yourself go out of this camera, this small cell and you let this person go. Because what he keeping accountable is that's when I went to and testify against my stepfather. But because I was I forgiven him, he didn't hold any power by me. Because there was nothing. And you know, what helped me to forgive Anita really, really helped. I, I've realized where this was coming from when he was and I'm not, you know, trying to protect him. But it's understandable for me, when he was a young boy, his father was an alcoholic. And he used to beat him abuse, you know, physically and verbally and mentally. I don't know if there was any sexual abuse to be honest. But this behavior he just he was just a young boy. And and what do we do? You like very often, people who are abused, they tend to behave the same way with others when they grown up, his power was taking away from him. And so he was trying to get his power back by abusing me and my younger brother. And when I realized that he's just a hole here to young boy, who is you know, in a child who's trying to survive inside it was it really helped me to realize Ah, I see now I see now because I neither i i possessed some of the behavior some of the abusive behavior from my stepfather, even though I hated it, because he was an Army guy, very very disciplinarian, very and physically and verbally abusive. And when I when I fled the the home, I thought finally I'm free. Ah, I took all this behavior with me and this voice with me. And when I when I started to live with my husband And I could see the buttons of me telling my husband's like, you know, like snapping at him or shorting him. The things that my stepfather will usually do, like, let me give you a quick example. My father really loved when everything very like spotless in the house, the kitchen is clean, like your your, your clothes is clean, everything is perfect. My husband is not so perfect when he cooks, when he cooks dinner, it's like a bomb explosion on the kitchen, like really? And I remember I was literally biting my tongue, do not say how f big and dirty you are, like, how could you you know be so Bloody dirty, like, you know, not accurate. I really had to bite my tongue. And then I realized I just repeating the DOS abuse that my stepfather was doing to me. And so this really helped me to revive the like back to back back to my story. I see why my stepfather was doing this, because he just purely didn't know any difference. And it helped me to help me to like, realize and forgive it.

I think that's a really powerful tip that anybody can use first recognizing that hurt people hurt people. And if you can see the person that's hurting you as the hurt child, not knowing better not behaving only in a way that they know. Again, it's not you're not accepting it, but you're also trying to be forgiving of the behavior because you understand that they come from a place of being hurt themselves. I think that's the use, I've used that in my own life as well. I had a an emotionally abusive father, and that I was finally not too long ago, able to let go and realize that, you know, hurt people hurt people, and I forgive. The other important thing that I think is worth presencing is when we don't forgive, we're keeping ourselves stuck in the past. And we are living the stories of the past. When we forgive, that's when we're able to let go of those past stories and move on that's only we can't forgive, forget and move on. You can forgive and you can move on. But it's not about forgetting I don't think we should ever forget. Because it also helps us to remember how to behave, you know, if we forget our fathers bad behavior, and we just carry on and yell at our husbands or partners for whatever, you know, that's forgetting, we need to learn the lessons of the misdeeds of other people. And we can then be a better person ourselves for that.

I knew that there is a very important point, I just I want your listeners to really understand and listen heart. For get is not the word that you use, because you won't be able to forget it. But when you forgive when you do the work on yourself, it doesn't hold the power over you. So when you remember, you will remember this, you will remember every single moment. But you won't have this flashbacks. You won't have these triggers. You won't have these fears or shame attack or panic attacks. That's the thing that is the power of forgiving, forgiving and healing yourself and speaking up and reclaiming your power and your voice. Because it doesn't hold a power over you anymore. It's like for me. Yes, it's happened. I remember every single moment. I remember how it started. I remember every movement, but it doesn't trigger any emotions in me anymore. That's the that's the difference. I still remember you can't forget it. I still remember. But I'm sharing it like, you know, yes, it's happened. And I've learned some lessons. And I would love to share them with you in hope that this will help you and maybe save your life.

It's great that you touched on forgiving yourself Self forgiveness. I think that's a really important piece. Can we talk a little bit about that? And what was your journey to self forgiveness?

You know, I need that self forgiveness is one of the know is the most important. Forgiveness in all of that, all of those forgiveness. Because when, when my biological father left us, I was four and a half. And imagine we still developing, we're still growing. And our subconscious is like, you know, pure, pure thing. It's it sucks all the information that you see. And so I thought that maybe I did something wrong. Maybe it was my fault that my biological father left. And so what's happened, i Neither I, I was so afraid to be abandoned again. That I became such a people pleaser, I will do everything for you just don't leave me. I underestimated the fear of abandonment, to be honest. And that's how I was leaving all my life, I will do everything for you just don't leave me place because it feels so uncomfortable. And so when my when my sexual abuse happened, I was already conditioned to be, you know, to obey the rules, to just do whatever my stepfather say, because I was so afraid we're gonna lose him again. You know, we're gonna lose my father father figure again. Plus, he threatened me with, with the life of my mom and my brother, if I ever revealed his his secret. And knowing what he was capable of, I really believed him. And plus, I'm knew how my mom was dependent on him. And codependent, because in Russia, being a single mother of two was very shameful, and us time. And so she gave him all the power, she put him on pedestal, just do whatever you want, but don't leave. And so I you know, I learned this behavior, just do whatever, but don't leave. My point is, and when I started to realize why I didn't fight back when it's happened, why, why couldn't stop this from continuing? Did I do something wrong to provoke it? And so those questions when I when I started growing up, were like, you know, going in the back of my head, and I started blaming myself, maybe this is my fault. And if this is my fault that I didn't fight back, I didn't do anything about this. Maybe I should tell my mom. But even though I've tried to tell my mom a few times, and I'm back here, do not leave me alone with him. She she sort of was telling me hey, you just you know, you're such a bad daughter. Come on, stop complaining. We are so thankful that we have a roof over our head, the food in our belly and you know, you can go to school, like be grateful. Come on. Why are you so complete complaining about this about him? He had

genuine, what he was doing at that time. Yeah.

And, and so for 20 years, I was living with this guilt with this feeling of guilt inside me. On either end, you know what? I was so afraid that anyone would ever find out what was happening. One of my friends, my school friend knew what was happening. I told her when it first time happened, but she knew my father. And she knew how abusive he was. And so she got scared, scared as well, and we keep our secret forever. But she was helping me, you know, to stay with me at home before my mom comes from work. So anyway, and this feeling of guilt was growing and growing and growing and growing. And whatever would happen in my life. For some reason, I would blame myself. Yeah, I would blame myself and forgiving myself, because I was a 15 years old child, cause condition to do to obey any rules and not say anything. And I didn't know what to do. And I I've got I froze because it was my body protection mechanism that I've learned later on. And another thing what I've learned, I needed that, I think would be really beneficial for your listeners to hear. I read this book, the courage to heal. And they were saying, even if you're your daughter, make it jump on your lap, and start passionately kissing you. The responsible man, the responsible man would always push away the girl and say, Hey, I think you have a problem here. Go and put your clothes on and let's talk. The perpetrator is always responsible for this kind of abuse, always. And it's ripe. Really? That's true. I, if you would see me or how I looked at 15 years old, you like this young girl? I could I possibly pro walk this from from, you know, to provoke this happening? And that was a huge eye opening experience for me. I need to it wasn't my fault.

No. And when when did you realize that it wasn't your fault? When did you stop blaming yourself for what had happened to you?

Such a great question. Such a good question. I when I first time open up about my abuse, I I went to a psychologist, Sherman's upcycle special specialist, NLP specialists. Like you name it, I went through all of them. And what really helped me is a hypnotherapy because I knew that when I during the hypnotherapy, my amazing hypnotherapist took me back into the past. And I was looking through my own eyes, my grown up Ghana. And what I saw at this point, because again, you will remember every single not every single but you will remember what was happening. When I saw this point, with my own eyes. I was like, Oh my goodness. That's not the situation how I was creating in my 15 years old girl. Because of the fifth one you 15 The whole situation got so much bigger, so much scarier so much. Like whoa, but when you see it with your adult eyes, it's like no, and your biggest fears Your biggest fears just start disappearing because you realize that this is not the picture and the story you're creating in your younger

that's so interesting. So it's like almost coming out of yourself looking back as a another person and seeing that that 15 year old girl as another another child and saying okay, that is so wrong, but not seeing her is wrong. Seeing the perpetrator is wrong, when

you eat when you see the situation from the above, when you see this yourself, but when you remove yourself, and another very, very important point. Probably someone would say, oh, you know, I don't want to go back because it will re traumatize me. As a hypnotherapist I help I guide people through this through this journey, because I believe that keeping this shame the secret inside you that's what really traumatizing you every single day, rather than go once and remove it.

And I imagine I'm guessing that it's because of the success you had in hypnotherapy that that directed you to become a hypnotherapist yourself.

Yes. Yes. I just saw I saw the magic what hypnotherapy did with me and I see the magic what my clients are experiencing right now.

Yeah. Okay, so hypnotherapy would be a great way for somebody to go if they were looking to to forgive themselves. Are there any other things that we as individuals can do on our own to help in that self forgiveness journey?

Yes, many things. I would say start with a journaling. Start with a journaling and I know so many people are talking about this. But you know when I when I started to put all my thoughts, all my memories on the paper. It was a such a healing experience for me. And they know You're writing the book. And, um, I'm writing the book as well. And just, you know, remembering those things is just like, wow, ah, yeah, maybe you Oh, that feels good. It's a

bit of a release, isn't it? When you can put it on paper, it's as you like, you're letting it letting it out.

There the best advice I've ever received is I was like, Where do I start writing? And this this woman told me, right, the most shameful, the most scariest moment in your life. Right in the details, what was happening at this point, where if it's a sexual abuse, or if it's a chain of, of the events, right, write about the most scariest, the most deepest, darkest moments in your life, and see what happens.

I advised one of my clients to do that very thing. And she gave me some pushback, like, I don't want anybody to ever see what I've written. And my recommendation was, then after you write it, burn it, let it go. Yeah, if you but just the actual physical writing process, and I recommend handwriting it out in a journal, or on a loose leaf or whatever. But if you're worried about somebody coming across it, and you just don't want anybody to see it, shred it, burn it, you know, chew it up, swallow it, whatever, just, if that's something that's holding you back from, from putting it on paper to get it out of your body, then there's ways to work around that. Don't let that be a barrier is what I'm trying to say.

Yeah, and right. Like, no one will ever seen this, because you know, you learn it. Right. Right. Like, there is no one to read this novel. Yeah. And I think the second thing, what really helped me, I need to, because I thought, I'm gonna do it, when like, myself, I'm strong, I'm powerful, you know, I can do this. Now. Not. I had a really hard time with asking for help, really hard time. And I was always like, you know, trying to keep things to myself, I controlling everything, you know, I can do everything myself. But asking for help with people who went through this situation, who know how you feel. And who knows what to do next is one of the best thing you can give to yourself. To be honest, when you're ready in your own time. Simply simply, you can jump on YouTube, and find the stories on TED talks or whatever, where people share their stories. That was that what inspired me to literally start my healing journey. I was amazing story. I didn't I didn't want to tell anyone at the at the very beginning of so scary and shameful. And I was searching and I found this Dr. Bridget Cooper on TED Talks. And she was sexually molested by her father, when she was still a toddler on like in front of your mom. Then mom was telling her everything when she grown up. She was molested sexually and then she was abused physically. And, and she was telling you to hear experience. And I was like, wow. And I was watching this woman. And I was thinking, I wonder if I would have such a confidence one day to tell my story. And you know, I knew that I was following her for three years on social media. And when I started my own podcast, I was sharing around that. Yeah, it's like world's best Trauma Recovery podcast. And that one of our friends said, You know what? I have a perfect for your guests for your podcast. I'm guessing I could not belief I'm still getting emotional. I could not believe Dr. Bridget Cooper.

That's like,

what chances of that?

Well, you know what, to me. I talked about that sort of thing as a spiritual breadcrumb. It's the universe telling you, you're on the right path. Totally the universe guiding you that was meant to happen. It was meant for this for you to find her and then for her to come around and be a guest on your show. I think that's super cool.

I agree with you.

Now, well done, well done. I know that you've, you've got an ebook. Can you tell us a little bit about that? And how our listeners would be able to find that ebook?

Yes, so the ebook, my seven secrets, or what I've learned, of leaving from inside out, and living happily from inside out, because I, I know that everything starts from inside, we create our life from inside out, what are we thinking about? What we feel, and, and our actions are coming from the inside out. And so I teach people how to be happy from the inside out, because you know, so many people are looking like they have it all together. And they do, they have families that they have work, they have friends, great cars, you know, traveling and all these things. But inside they feel empty, unfulfilled. Something important is missing. And it was it used to be me and Anita. And so now, I would love to share my seven secrets on how to become a happy on the inside and create your life from the inside out. So you can find this, this book on my website. It's Anna ditchburn.com. It's a double and a di tchburn.com where you can find the links to my social media as well. I always share some amazing tips and my stories on my social media.

That's awesome. And we'll we'll make sure to put all of that information in the show notes so our listeners can easily find you you are you are an inspiration I your show. give so much great information. I've I'd love your interview style as well, with you're the world's greatest trauma recovery coach. I said that wrong. Didn't I

give me the world's best Trauma Recovery podcast world's best

Trauma Recovery podcast. That's the the first iteration of your podcasts and you have a new podcast coming out. And we'll and I'll include the links for both of them in the show notes so people can listen to some of your previous content and follow along with the new content that you're you're putting out there, as well as all of your social media handles and whatnot. So, so wonderful. And again, thank you so much for giving us your time and sharing your insights. Forgiveness is a big journey. It's not something you can say today, I you know, I'm going to forgive myself. Yes, start that journey. And understand it's going to take a long time, I know that I've had to do a lot of forgiveness work as well. You were really providing some wonderful information to our listeners. And I'm I'm excited to continue to follow your journey and the work that you're doing. So thank you again for being here.

And you saw my tenure.

Yeah, we'll do it again. And joyful journey or