What’s the Issue? - A Conversation about Conflict with Rob McGregor

Welcome to the joyful journey podcast. If you're looking for more clarity in your life, clarity of purpose, or how to activate that purpose, and you are someone who wants to operate from your highest self to be a force for good, you know this world craves, then this is the show for you. I'm Anita Adams, your host and guide to finding clarity and creating a life you love. Let's tap into our inner wisdom, access our highest self, and unleash joy. As we do this, we raise our vibration and heighten the collective consciousness. And that, my friend, is the joyful journey. Let's dive in. Hey, joyful journey or Anita Adams here, your host. And today I'm so excited to introduce you to Rob McGregor, who happens to be a really good friend of mine and a super smart guy. We went no pressure here. Rob and I went on a motorbike trip this summer. And I got to hear more about the fascinating work that he's doing. And the penny dropped Rob, I suddenly realized would make for a fabulous guest on my show. Sometimes the gold you're looking for is right in front of you. And you just have to open your eyes. So let me tell you a little more about this guy. Rob is an expert in conflict resolution, although I understand he's not a fan of that term, which we will come back to I see you rob going. We'll come back to that. Thank you. Rob learned early and often about how conflict and our inability to manage it affects relationships and performance. He has dedicated his life to deconstructing What attitudes, thoughts and actions lead to conflict and what can be done to head it off. So conflict resolution isn't needed. Rob is an executive coach and consultant working with senior leaders of rapidly growing companies. He's the CEO of spirit West management, helping companies grow to the next level and become sale ready. Leaders dealing with constant change while trying to manage their people rely on Rob to guide them through thorny situations. Rob has a Bachelors of psych masters in divinity, a certificate in conflict resolution mediation and negotiation and a master's in business administration. He is a PhD candidate in industrial marketing at the University of blue Leo, in Sweden, where his desk dissertation focuses on the effect of conflict on business to business sales team. There you go. Welcome, Rob. Thanks, Anita. such a treat to have you on the show. Thank you so much for joining me.

Oh, thank you. It's great to be here. And I always love talking to you. Because I always get enthused with life in general, every time I talk with you. So yes, absolutely. Thanks for the opportunity to continue that.

Yeah. Gosh, you know, we have had so many good conversations over the years are always so rich and layered. And you just have so many vast, amazing experiences, wealth of experiences from growing up and living in, you know, somewhere up north, is it Manitoba? Winnipeg?

north north of Winnipeg, northern Saskatchewan, right, right. Right. You're out a little bit. Yes, you

have. And then just all the experiences you've had in business and your, your background in with the church, just like, wow, you just have so many rich experiences, and you continue to educate yourself, which I think is so cool, that you've gone back to school again, and are in the process of completing your dissertation in and getting your PhD. And I just love it. I love this, that this life journey to continue to learn and expand yourself. I find it incredibly inspiring. So it's great. It's just such an honor to have you here on my show.

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, learning, I found that learning is just it's what keeps me alive. Without it, you know, I don't want to answer so I want more and more questions. You know, that take a look at that. There's a universe that we live in, where this tiny little piece of there's so much that we couldn't possibly know. So to shut off all of that opportunity. Not I don't want to live if that's the way it is. I want to enjoy it.

Yeah, absolutely. did an interview yesterday and the gentleman I interviewed he called me a seeker. And I'm like, I'm like that yeah, like I am Seeking, I'm constantly seeking and exploring and trying to dive into understand things that you know, that are out there. There's just there's so much. There's so much to learn. There's so much to continue to expand into, which is cool.

Yeah. So let me let's let's

start with that conflict resolution thing, because that you didn't use you stopped me once when we were talking and I think I introduced you, as you know, expert in conflict resolution, you're like, Whoa, whoa, whoa. So explain that. Why, why is conflict resolution, not a term that you actually like using?

Well, to me, there's almost a defeat ism, that comes into it with conflict resolution. Because in my studies, I've noticed that they move very quickly from talking about what conflict is to how to resolve it. And that's what caught my attention with with with the material. And I said, Well, hang on for a second here. Why don't we jump over the idea that people can actually manage their way through conflict? And then I started thinking, well, if they can manage their way through that suggests there's a choice, that conflict is not inevitable. There's a choice? And what if we back that choice up even more? So when I see the thing, the conversation starting to get heated starting to get off track? I can go hang on for a second here. Do I want to go into conflict? Or do one I want to steer it back in so that you and I can share ideas, and we can inspire each other and we can create something bigger and better from that from that conversation. And so to wait for conflict resolution to clean up the mess is just Whoa, it's just like the accident has happened. And now you got to bring the crew into pick up the pieces. Too many people Me included for so many years, either either either crashed into other people and created carnage or our I was crashed into and it created carnage, and it hurts too much to be in conflict. So so let's let's up the game, let's let's suggests that human beings are capable of more than just needing conflict resolution to come in.

Hmm. Like I like that, that it's a it's a choice, it always is a choice, isn't it? Well, then let's talk about Tom, you created something really super cool. That was designed to help leaders and their teams work through the conflict in the workplace. And when you were telling me about it, I'm like, Bob, this is this is something that people doesn't matter if they're in a workplace or not. This is a tool I believe anybody can use in their life just to step into that best version of who they are. And your you call it the who and want tools. Can you walk us through what the who and what tools are?

Well, the who and the what tools are simple ways to decipher what is actually going on. Okay, so you remember he said that, that back the choice up? And to just say that and not have any well, how do I do that? Just doesn't make sense. And I experienced too many things in my life where people said, well, this is what you got to, this is what you got to do. And they'd say, Well, how do I do it? And they couldn't tell me. And so in all of the work that I've done with my wife, Lorraine, who's my business partner, in spirit, West management, we've always looked to make sure that we explain the what, but also the how. Okay, and that ties right in with the with the, with the who and the what tools, as you call them are I call them houses. And there are people that live in the White House. Okay, and the White House is where the issues exist. And it's it's a good cognitive process, a thinking process, to explore and to ask questions to get curious. And it's a wonderful place to be because when, when I'm getting curious, I find out more about what you have to offer what you bring to the table. And if you reciprocate with curiosity, then we really start to inspire each other and great things happen. I mean, that's, that's one of the things I liked about your your, your podcasts that you do is you're doing exactly that. You're looking for conversations, so you could be inspired so other people can be inspired, or sort of the person who's talking to you we can be inspired so that the people who are watching can be inspired. That's exactly what I'm talking about. You talk about the what Yes, the question. So the White House is where all of that really good interaction happens. The WHO house is where fear comes in, and the perception of being threatened come Santa And I spent my most most of my life operating on fear, either either being fearful and running from it, or using fear to push on other people to get them to cooperate with me. And I didn't realize that all they were doing was complying. They weren't cooperating, they were complying, because there was a threat that I was putting out there. So I try to, to offer myself the opportunity to more quickly look at it and say, Well, hang on, is this a who house thing? Or is this a White House, if I'm focusing on the issue, it's the White House. And that's where the good stuff lives. If I'm focusing on the person, as well, that's a stupid idea. That focus on the person and that takes it into something different. With with all the different experiences that I've had, I remember one, when I was learning how to preach because when I was doing my masters of divinity, they taught us how to how to preach and there was a joke, that if your point is weak, talk loudly. So you're up there doing a sermon, and you've got a weak point, you yell louder? Well, if you take a look in the political arena, what happens when somebody is getting hit on their agenda or on their, their what they're saying, somebody yelled in without, it's a stupid idea, or boo, or you're a fraud, you're a fake. All of this personal criticism comes in. That's the stuff we want to stay away from. But we didn't have the tools, we didn't have the language to say, well, what is this? And so we would get pulled into that. Because if someone goes to the house, if someone attacks me, my response needs to be. So what was the issuer talking about before that happened? And then I've got then I've got I'm in my own power. And I can determine how I go forward. And and how I am in the situation. If I go into the WHO house, if it's their house, they started the attack, and I try to defend it, I give my power to them. And they control me, right? And too much of my life, I spent walking in there and wondering what happened. So I developed this, who and what house pauses to try and give people an opportunity for something that's not complicated. It's really simple. Just Is this a Who are we talking about people and the personal aspect? Are we talking about the what? The issue at hand?

Yeah, I love the simplicity of it. And I think that's really key. So are there are there some, like some indicators or cues that we can remind ourselves of that if we're in a conflict situation that we can go wait a minute, you know, what are the what are the indicators that we can grab onto that will tell us that what house we're in?

I think one big indicator is emotions. And we're as human, we as human beings are not taught how to handle emotions. Okay, and so a lot of people tried to stuffed down their emotions. Well, when I stuffed down my emotions, it's like a little kid that I'm ignoring. They'll say, Rob, and if I don't pay attention if they go wrong, and if I still don't pay attention, then they vote. To get my attention. Emotions are the same way. Emotions are information. That's all they are. But we're taught to not know how to deal with them what to do with them. And so we get lost in them. So as soon as my emotions start to come up, what I want to do is I want to go, oh, I noticed that I'm having a reaction, I don't have to name what the emotion is, I'm having a reaction. As soon as I do that, I slow the process down. And in conflict resolution circles, they used to talk about anger mountain, that as you go up anger mountain, you go down in terms of cognitive functioning, your ability to think through the process, and that is so true. But what comes before anger is either hurt or fear, right? And so if I open myself up to I will get have emotions, and the emotions are trying to help me to understand something. So if my fear comes up, I'll look at it and go, Oh, I noticed I'm nervous about something. What am I nervous about? And then I have to then I can look at it and say, Is this a real threat? Or is it just me telling myself? Well, I don't know what to do with this. So the emotions are the are the, the key piece to it? I guess there's another part of just thinking this through as we're talking. I guess another part is, if I'm in that cognitive space, that good functioning thing, if I name what I'm doing, I'm more likely to be able to stay with it. And so you and I are talking rocking, we're having that great discussion I want to do. Wow, I really love that we're getting curious with each other. Because that reinforces what it is that we're doing and helps us to be there. I can also then when the emotion starts to come off, or when I start, all of a sudden to go into the schoolhouse, I can go away for a second here, what? What state was a MP for a while I was being curious. All Yeah, that's in the White House. Yeah, I want to get back to that.

Okay, that's okay. So

there's a lot there isn't. There's a lot there. And it's good. I think I've got it. So naming the naming the emotion like taking basically taking a pause, and when instead of just reacting, pausing, understanding what's going on with yourself and then getting curious, curious, as curious about why am I triggered by what he said? Or is it curious about why he did? Why he said what he said. Yes. Curious.

I want to go back to the Word. You said understanding, I would suggest that understanding in the moment is too much to expect. Okay, I can't understand noticing. Yeah, noticing is all you have to do is to go Oh, something shifted. Right. I've done this in the middle of really, really difficult situations with with owners of companies where they're there, they're ready to come to blows with each other. And I was expected to manage that whole process to keep it safe to help them move forward. And just by saying, Oh, guys, hang on for a second. I noticed something just shifted what what anybody know what it was? And that was enough to pull people back from the edge of jumping over the cliff into into confrontation, and to go, oh, yeah, I noticed something too. And then somebody else will say, I didn't notice anything, what did you notice? And the discussion has changed. And it's gone back into a cognitive process instead of an emotional process. So if I just notice and speak it, so whether I speak it to my own self in my head, or I speak it out loud, the way,

I really like that, thank you for clarifying that. Because sometimes I feel like I'm I have an emotion. And I'm bothered that I don't understand why I'm so upset by something. And that almost makes it worse, because I want to I want to understand why I'm bothered by this. But what you're saying is just noticing that something shifted inside is enough, enough to start with, and it kind of pressure off. And you can just step back for a sec and and look at it and potentially have a conversation with others in the room if you want to bring that up. But I really like that. Thank you.

Yeah, well, and I think that, do it in a safe setting. If you're going to say it out loud, make sure you're in a reasonably safe setting. So if you're talking to your significant other, that's usually a pretty safe setting. Yeah. So to say, Whoa, I just noticed something shifted in me. They could that will allow a timeout from the from the, from the screaming rush that was happening to go for that person to go, Oh, what happened, and everybody gets shifted in that. If you are in a situation where somebody is trying to, to steal your power, I would suggest that you have the dialogue internally, okay. And people, I'm cautious that somebody who's in an abusive situation will will will suggest, well, I noticed something shifted in me. And the abuser will use that to take control of them to power down on them. So I'm really concerned about So be safe, say it in your head, if that's the only safe place to say it. And when you do that you disengage from what's happening out there. And it gives you a chance of keeping yourself safe. Right? What a powerful

tool and so simple. It does take awareness, it does take awareness and intention. But we all have that ability just to notice that something's shifted and just pause take a pause.

Yeah, yeah. And and in terms of the normal realm, people are aware. They notice things. Like if if want to exercise that I've done with with people is to say, Okay, everybody in the room, shut your eyes. And tell me what color are the walls in the room that you're in? And a whole bunch of people know. And so I go through a series things until everybody has identified something that they noticed you know what color shirt they're wearing. Who Sitting next to them. I said, Well, how did you notice this then? Because then that means you weren't paying attention to what I was talking to you about? Well, no, I'm able to see these things and pay attention. Yes, absolutely. And so to, to name that, and to remind people that you are taking, we every single person is taking in countless amounts of information constantly. And so what I can do is I can give myself permission to notice that something's going on on Me, in Me. And if I start my day with saying, I'll notice me to, then the information comes up as well. But it comes up in a strong way, not in a scared way, in a strong way. Right. And we all Yeah,

oh, I was just gonna I was just gonna say, so if you're going into, say, a potentially challenging situation, Nick, you're you're going into, say, a board meeting or your or even your, your partner, you've got a conflict that something's happening, you can actually see before going into that meeting, you can say that to yourself, you can say, Okay, I'm going to notice, I'm going to go in to this meeting, I'm going to go into this time with this person noticing what's going on with me. Yeah, and have that intention right from the beginning. And that can set you up to make sure you make the choice to go into the White House instead of the WHO house setting you up for having potentially more success.

Yeah, and and when we when we do stray and go into the house, which we always do. I do too. It's something that when I'm, suddenly law, realize that I'm lost in the house. I didn't go, Okay, what did i What did I want to do today? What did I want from this conversation? And that'll that'll stall all the influences in the house, and will help me to get back into the White House. Right? Because what I wanted to do today is a White House thing.

Yeah. So in the WHO houses is full of emotion, isn't it? Like it's full of fear, anxiety, blame, frustration. It's all those sort of negative, negative motions.

Yeah. And you said blame and the outcome blame comes from other people. Sometimes we blame ourselves. But I think blame usually comes from outside, and it creates shame in us. Right. Okay. And so shame is the is the prevalent piece, because if I go into the house, and I'm supposed to know all this stuff, shame tries to take over and keep me there.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

All right. So in the in the WHO house, feeling? Shame, feeling defensive? Maybe? How do we how do we move? What if we are in the house and we're feeling all the feels? How do we get out of the house and into the house? Alright,

by asking a simple question. So what were we talking about before when it's all this?

So asking the person or the people you're talking to what is the issue? What is the issue? But what if they come back? Well, the issue is you you messed up, you screwed up on that job, or you didn't do what you said you were going to do. So they're firm, they're firmly in the in the WHO house and you're trying to get out of the White House. But if you've got somebody that is pointing and trying to blame you, then that's that, I would think that would be really hard to

move. It is very hard to do. And the key piece that you said in there, I think you said what was the issue? What was the job? We're doing to go back to that? Okay, and so when they go, Well, I know. I know the issue and the issue is you. You go okay, that's one perspective. And what else could it be? So that every time he introduced the word what you're inviting to go back over to this cognitive function,

okay? Okay. So remove it from an individual or people and let's just go back to what it is. That is the problem. So

what is what it is that the issue? What is the issue, and again, I'll try and stay away from I'm a stickler for words. And so I try to suggest to people pay attention to the words you use because if you if you if you call it a problem that's that's an opportunity for somebody who's in though, in the house is to say, Yeah, you're the problem. Okay, we're If you say what's the issue? Well, that's a neutral term. Problem is loaded. Issue is neutral. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, so how about when we're dealing when we truly are dealing with an individual who is, is the issue where they're just wanting to undermine you constantly, or they're, they're not willing to step out of the house?

Okay. So then what you're talking about, it could be attitude could be performance. Yeah. Okay. So if it's an employee that I have, that people keep complaining, but they keep on, this employee keeps on attacking me, and it's not safe, and I don't feel comfortable, and I don't want to deal with that person. So I'm dealing with person and I'm saying, Okay, we need to talk about your communication processes. And I'm hoping that it's a communication issue. And as we're going through, we'll, we'll explore more as to what it would be. So the context is that when an issue starts to get tough, the pattern in communication that I've noticed you use is that you move into focusing on the person that you're discussing the issue with, and I want to let you know that that's not okay. If that's an emotional thing, and that's something for you to handle. What I know you're good at is, is getting really hard on the issue, be nice on the people part, but be really hard on the issue. And so bring that ability to drill in back over here to the what, and let's get back to it, it's a performance issue. I'm not saying to the person, you're rude, you're you're inappropriate, I'm not using all of those loaded words that just increase the fear for that person and will cement them in that in that who place. And and the way we're taught to, I'm going to say this intentionally the way we're taught to Bumble differences of opinion, difference of any kind, is, is that's what I'm trying to work against. In our society. I'm trying to say to human beings, yes, you are capable and competent, of having intelligent, issue focused conversation, you just need the right tools. And the tools need to be simple, because it really is a simple thing. Do I go into attacking people? Or do I stay focused on the issue? That's the choice?

Yeah, again, I really like the simplicity of it. And what I'm what I'm really getting out of this is that I, as individuals, I believe we need to work on ourselves primarily to make sure that we are in firmly in the White House and try instead of trying instead of trying to grab people and pull them over into the White House first work on making sure you are there. And you're and you are operating from that place.

Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's the it's the old adage of, don't do is a do do as I say, yeah. And when that happens, no, you don't persuade people to do it differently. You influence them, you treat them with respect, you offer them the opportunity. You can say, hey, you know what, I know you've got a really good perspective on this, and I really want to understand it. So can we lose all the stuff? That's, that's that's kind of the people stuff. Can we leave all of that behind? Can we just focus on what the issue was, I really want to hear your things, your perspectives, and and I guess some good things came out of conflict resolution training that they did, they said, Remember, you have two ears and one mouth, act accordingly. Okay, so to invite people to help me to understand what it is they're suggesting what they're saying. But I also might have to clarify and say, Okay, so I'm acknowledging what you're saying, I'm interested in that. But that doesn't mean I necessarily agree with you that that's a further discussion. Right now, I want to I want to try to understand as best I can, where you're coming from what you're suggesting what it's about. Imagine on the world stage, if if that was happening now, you know, countries invading countries going in and saying, Hey, we got a problem here. And this is what the problem is, and the other people saying, Oh, tell me more about that. Yeah. That was opposed to.

Yeah, yeah. Being really curious, and we can do that. So I'm curious. When you're working with with leaders, and I know you go in all over around the world, you are you are talking to leaders and companies. Are they receptive to this idea of them having to be firmly planted in the in the White House, or are they are they also are they saying it's my employees? Is that need to get over here?

Well, there's there's always some of that happening. And so if I'm a decent coach, then I can help them to go. Oh, that's interesting. What else do you think that was in? When they go to? Oh, it's my employees?

Hi. Yeah, yeah, right. Okay. Oh, good. So okay, so that's it's,

yeah. So it's a simple and it's a fun way to identify the issues as opposed to be saying, well, actually, you're, you shouldn't say that you. I don't scold them. I asked them the question, so that they can look at themselves. And I've had some tough nights, I've had some people who, who didn't want to let go of the hurt. And so I've had to say, okay, you know, maybe there's some other work you need to do to deal with that hurt. That's that's built up over the years of you guys working together. But that, that has to be done over there. That's your issue, and you have to deal with it. But that person was involved in it, too. Yeah. But it was your reaction to what they did that you want to pay attention to not what they did, because you can't change them. But then I'm also saying to that person, so I noticed that we there's a pattern here that a certain point, you stop talking about the issue and you start focusing on that person. What do you think that's like for him? And they go, what, what what do you think it's fine, because you come across pretty strongly Yeah, you're pretty, pretty intense person you come across strongly. So what do you think it's like to be on the receiving end of that? And so again, I'm not telling them don't do this. I'm asking them to walk around the circle. So here's their behavior. And here's where they're seeing it from, what does it feel like on this side. And when people start to consider something other than their emotional barrage, then all of a sudden things change. It's kind of like the difference between what people will say to your face, and what they'll say on social media. But I don't have to look you in the eye. I think I don't have to take responsibility for my wrath, be accountable for my words. But if I'm looking at someone, and I'm going to call them all sorts of horrible things, for most of us, that's pretty hard thing to do. Yeah. You know, so if we have tools to be able to question what's happening to bring it out into the open to shine a light on it, so we can see what's actually there.

Yeah. So the question that we want to keep coming back to with yourself is just the simple one. And it's like, what helps him plan? What he has in mind right now, you know, where am I?

Yeah, I go, even I go even simpler than that. Because I want to get us back to the hotel, the White House. And so what I what I try to suggest to people is just stick with. So what was the issue we decided we would talk about? Yeah, let's let's go good. Somebody refreshed me on that? Because I seem to have lost track on it. Yeah. And so you're coming back to the what? Okay. I want to throw another piece in, though that might that that is important. And it can be a complication unless it's clearly understood. And that's the how, okay, and the how is I call it the slippery slope to the whew house. Because what you and I will talk and say, well, let's go on a motorcycle trip. So yeah, motorcycle trip. Great. All right, super. Well, let's go to Alaska. Whoa, that was crazy. You know, we don't want to Oh, we're in the house. Okay, so we we moved really quickly from Yeah, motorcycle trip to Alaska to a lot of crazy idea. So we went, okay. Yeah, the reason is because we didn't do enough questioning, we didn't say, okay, motorcycle trip. What kind of timeframe is involved with it? Oh, that's part of the walk. How long will our motorcycle trip be? We've got four days. Okay, I'll ask us off the table solution that I threw into the whole thing, all of a sudden, is pushed away, because it's irrelevant to our discussion. People jump to solutions before they clearly defined the what? Okay, we want to go and live in Portugal braid. And so we decided, yeah, we're gonna go and boom, we ruin and all of a sudden, we're coming back in six months. And I kind of then accidentally run during a conversation where we go. So you want to come back in six months? No, I thought you wanted to come back in six months? No, I don't want to come back and six of all, neither do I. Oh, so you put a how, without looking at and saying, Okay, we just put a timeframe on this thing. How does that help or hinder the what that we want? Well, we want to go to Portugal. We didn't say anything about timeframe there. We need to discuss the timeframe. Oh, we don't have a timeframe. We're on an open gap. Oh, what does that do for us? What does that open up? So if you find yourself arguing about solutions, you have find you haven't defined the what? strongly enough.

Okay, and the solutions that are the how, yeah, that's how you're arguing about the solutions. You're arguing about the how you're going to do something or not do something, then you have not defined the what, enough? Okay, that makes sense. I got it. I got it.

Yeah. And the how is where it gets off? Well, that's a stupid idea. Well, I wasn't very nice. Why do you attack me? Right?

And now suddenly, you're in the house?

Yes. Yes. Ah, so if you're finding that it's it will, I was just trying to offer an idea. You want to go Oh, idea. That's a solution. That's a how. Okay, so help me understand which which issue? The how addresses? Because I don't see where it fits. So we'll go back to Alaska. Oh, I've always wanted to go to Alaska. Okay. It's a dream for you to go to Alaska. Did you necessarily think on motorcycles? No, I just every time I think about a trip, I think Alaska was my first choice. Choice. Oh, okay. So you're trying to get a solution for your desire to go to Alaska, and you haven't found a way to do it yet? Okay. Here are some parameters that we bring in now. What do you think no, Alaska is out of the picture. And so I don't have to be told it's a stupid idea. I can be shown that it's a solution. That's not for the right issue that we're talking about. Right?

I just had a bit of an aha moment for what I'm doing all the time in my relationships. I'm the solution finder. Yeah, I'm always pitching solutions. You know, before I even really know what the what is, you know, and I know and try my drives Tom, my husband nuts. And my daughter, she's like, Mom, I just want to tell you what's going on. I don't want this illusion. And I now realize that I'm I am contributing to creating conflict. Because I'm pulling, I'm trying to, I'm trying to find that the solutions way too soon, before fully understanding the what the issue so that

I need a, this is one of the things I love about you, is because you're willing to take information in and you're willing to try it on yourself, before you push it out to other people, or even in the process of sharing it with other people. And so what you give is an example of when you get information. You don't go to the hoop house and try to shut it down. Or pretend that you you Oh, I got no, I don't have to worry about that. You go to the lot of exploring and learning more about it, and seeing how you can use it effectively in your life. That's really cool. That's the model of what we're talking about.

Awesome. Well, thank you for that validation. And I see how I, I'm on that slippery slope sometimes, especially with the close my close family members, you know, like, yeah,

like, our habits, we usually push across all over the place. And I've got mine too, that were in the areas where I fall down to. But the wonderful thing about this, and what I've always tried to find in the work that I've done in my life, is to not focus on the what not to do. But to come up with okay, what could I do?

What could I do? Yeah, yeah. After fully exploring the issue. That's what I'm taking away from this is that we got to fully explore the issue before we dive into any kind of solutions.

Okay, so let me throw something out on that, because a lot of people will have heard that and gone, oh, we're going to be never doing anything and never get anything done. So you do is trial closes? So they get trial close.

Trial. Explain.

So you've you've talked and talked and talking about things and people are kind of going, I don't know what else is darker? Okay, so why don't we shut down here and moved on to solutions? What do you think that'd be like? And some people go, yeah, it's good idea. And somebody say, No, I'm not ready to do that. Okay, then you can go. So what's missing for you? Get curious again, as opposed to going Oh, come on. Yeah, they go on their house. Yeah. So the it's not about doing this forever. It's about it's about making sure you look around enough to be able to say okay, we can confidently move forward. And if we get new information, what are we going to do? We'll come back and take another look at it. Anybody got a pro? With that, there'll be some people who want to finish it off and get moving forward. But they also start to recognize that a little bit more exploration actually helps you get better solutions for the issue that you're dealing with. And so those people will bite their tongue a little bit. And, and, and not try to close the discussion down. I'm talking about my wife. Now, she loves to close it down, and let's move on. But she's learned. And she says all the time, that when she engages with me to explore a little bit more beyond what she would like to see always finds that we come up with a better solution than what we had what she thought we had. And

I love that. That's so great. Okay, I've got one last question for you. I want to know how you stay grounded and focused. So you can stay in in the White House. And maybe we've already addressed the dress that but I feel like it's worth really kind of polishing that a little bit like, how do we stay in the White House? Yeah, well, I've

got a combination of things. So my usual mantra is time, okay. And that's that I approve of myself as a human being, I'm a human being. And so I have to remind myself that I am okay. And all sorts of things in my childhood told me I wasn't. And so a million times a day, I need to be saying to myself, I'm okay. And sometimes I can even step it up and say, I actually approve of me. See, even with that, it was hard to say it, I actually approve of me, I had to put an adjective. So yeah, I approve of me, is this clean statement. But that's sometimes hard for me to say. So I go to the I'm okay, peace. My wife is a human doing, she gets her value from what she does in the world. And if she acknowledges herself for what she's done, throughout the day, she's got energy to like you wouldn't believe. And she performs better and better and better. Okay. So, for me, it's not what I do. It's why I do it is because this is the person I choose to be. So I have to remind myself of that constantly. So that's the that's the over that's the, that's the foundational mantra. And just recently, I've been I've been playing with wording to say, I choose to be in the White House. And so I'll say that to myself, going into an, into a meeting or whatever, coming into this, I could have gotten very, very nervous about this conversation, which would have been me in the house, that there's something wrong with me, I'm feeling threatened. But I want to what do I know, I know that a Anita and I have really good conversations, I know that this is her podcast, and she'll take the conversation where she wants to take it, and I will be able to contribute. So all of that's in the White House. And that helped me to ground so that when I sat down, I was comfortable.

I love what you're talking about. And that that takes it beyond conflict resolution with other people. It's about just settling yourself into who you are, and, and being comfortable with any situation that you're going to be putting yourself into. So you are choosing I'm going to be in the White House and not and not allow stress, anxiety, fear, whatever it is to take hold because those emotions are in the house. Yeah. And I want to present one more thing you also you've found that grounding by like, clarify, not clarifying. That's not the right word. But But I guess identifying who you're meeting with the mean, you have this relationship, you know what we're we're doing, and you feel big by putting words to that it helped to, to settle you and prepare you for this conversation.

Yeah, I love Yeah. So I noticed I noticed that temptation to be anxious. Yeah. And I recognized it, I noticed that I, I gave the information. And it would, because I noticed it, it was willing to listen to what I have to say to it. And so when I set all of these things, it was able to turn itself down because it the nervousness, the anxiety, if that's what it was, I became confident that I was noticing and paying attention and that I would manage myself. And so it could turn itself down. How it's like when the little kid comes up to you and says, Anita, you go hey, yeah, what's happened? Can you just give me a second and you? You might rub their back a little bit. Just give me a second, okay, because I have to finish off here, and I'll be right to you. Okay. All right. And you keep your Hang on there to connect with them, and you finish what you're doing. And then you go back to them and say, Hey, so that's the process I get internally. I love it.

Very cool. You guys really neat I've I've, I love having people on my show that I believe the work that they're doing is contributing to, to harmonizing humanity, basically, you know, where everybody is doing something different towards that that goal. And I see the work that you're doing is plays a role in that harmonizing humanity by teaching us to, to get grounded and step into the White House. So we can make choices that are aligned with our higher self and the and the greater, the greater good for all. And I think it's really, really powerful work that you're doing. And I'm really excited about it.

Thank you. I'm glad you brought in that greater good for all, because as you're talking, I've had thoughts on this before, but I hadn't really crystallized them. But as you were talking, I thought that it's not just about the human interaction with humans, it's about the human are interaction with everything. And so nature, if you look at what's happening with our planet, right now, if people brought the who and the what, and the how into the discussion, they would, they would more easily be able to sit around the table and have the conversations to the point where they have doable solutions instead of people pulling and running. I just read this morning that the the Feds pulled out of the health talks with the provinces, if they had had the who in the White House and the house connector in those meetings, they could have stayed at the table until they came up with things that were workable, because they would be in Challenge Mode, which is inspiration as opposed to threat mode, which is I might not get enough and you are the bad guy. Yeah. So I think it's I think it's an everything we do. It's it. I'm I don't want to sound fanatical about this. Who in what house but I'm, I'm looking at it. I'm experimenting with it and saying, how far can it go to changing things? And I think that it shifts our maybe our brain chemicals. I don't know what it, it brings out more of the what is it? Sir? What's the feel good? Yeah. That brings out more of that. Because we're not we're not sitting in that fight or flight stamps anymore because we were capable, competent, cognitive, human beings. Yeah.

Well, imagine if we had world leaders who are operating from from the White House instead of the who will Yeah,

world leaders and and House leaders and and business leaders and school leaders and leaders.

I mean, it's got to start with ourselves, right, like, and we we can do this work and and firmly plant ourselves in the White House. Yeah, start.

So there's Yeah, and there. In my studies I've seen there's intergroup relations, conflict. So two groups fighting, there's intragroup within the group they're fighting, and then there's intra personal conflict. And so many people are fighting their own demons, and they don't have a way to deal with it. And while I'm not suggesting that this in itself is a new therapeutic model, I'm suggesting that if if the people who are advising those folks would bring in the idea that Okay, so are you in the White House or in your blue house when when you make that comment, it gives people a way to, to simplify everything, and to get back to making good choices, intentional choices.

Absolutely.

Yeah. So, so great. Rob, I want to put you on the spot a little bit right now. And I'm sorry, I should have asked you this in advance. Is it possible that we could have like a like a one sheet or something like that, that just describes the house in the White House and questions that you can ask yourself to help us get into the White House and then I can put that up on on the joyful inspired living website that people can turn to? And then that can have your contact information on that as well. And of course, we'll put your contact information in the in the show notes, but would that be cool? I really think this is a valuable tool that anybody can use in any kind of situation.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yes. I've gone through the whole thing of ownership and all that and, and I've realized that what I want is to just offer an opportunity for people to try something different. Yeah, because we need we need hope in our in our in our world now. We need joy in our world. And the who hosts doesn't give joy the White House does and White

House does. And it's yes, absolutely. I will get something to

you and we can talk about it. I want to give you I want to give you a few. Here's a couple of pages. Okay. Yeah, that's

fine. Yeah. Whatever works. Yeah. It's kind of stuff that we that I can upload and add to my website so people can download. Yeah,

I'll give you a template. If this then do this. I'll give you that. Because I've used that I piloted this with with an ownership group. And people who had been at risk of physical altercations in their discussions, actually used it, they got it. They use the process, and they didn't need me anymore. And I love that I want to do myself out of a job because people get it, they use it. So yeah,

I'll give you some of that.

That'd be really great. I knew this. This is going to be fun. Thank you so much, Rob. I really love our conversations. And I'm looking forward to more more of them. We will continue our conversations, of course, and I really appreciate you giving us some time to be on my show. Really cool.

Absolutely. My joy. Thank you very much for inviting me.

Awesome. And thank you joyful journey ER for tuning in. I hope you got some value out of this as much as I did. I feel like I had a lot of aha moments today. And yeah, and we'll catch you next time. Bye for now.

And if you have questions, let me know.