Parenting with Love: Research Insights on Sexual Health in LGBTQ+ Youth with Dr. David Huebner

Welcome back to Just Breathe. I am so happy you are here today. And I am really really thrilled to bring you today's show because it is a little bit different than the interviews that I typically have. Today's guest is Dr. David Huebner who has been here before. If you recall, or if you've been listening for a while, David and I did a show about two years ago talking about sex and why it is important to talk with our kids about sex, and all the different ways that we can do it so that it is not weird and awkward and all of those things. So I was very thrilled when he reached back out to me a month or so ago letting me know that some research that they had just been beginning when we talked two years ago, talking about HIV, and how it is disproportionately showing up in our queer boys specifically, and really wanting to understand why that is what can be done in an intervention sense in an educational sense. And they have come up with he and his team have come up with this, just really robust research, survey, toolbox education, all of the above that they are now working on. So I wanted to bring him back on today to talk about this work that they are doing, and to talk about the ways that you all can help want to give a little bit of background, his official bio background before we get started. I'm so thrilled to have Dr. Huebner back. He is a clinical psychologist and the professor of Prevention and Community Health at George Washington University. He has spent 20 years researching how parents influence the health of LGBTQ plus youth. And he leads the team who creates and evaluates the resources for parents with love. And there's so so much more for you to know about Dr. Huebner, you can go to the website, his bio, all of the information will be in the show notes at the end. But for now, I am just thrilled to bring you this conversation.

Parenting your LGBTQ Teen the podcast, transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child. My name is Heather Hester and I am so grateful you are here. I want you to take a deep breath. And know that for the time we are together, you are in the safety of the just breathing. That's whether today's show is an amazing guest or me sharing stories, resources, strategies or lessons I've learned along our journey. I want you to feel like we're just hanging out at a coffee shop having a cozy chat. Most of all, I want you to remember that wherever you are on this journey, right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone.

David, I am so glad that you are here with me again today. And just a little reminder, even though I have already reminded you all of this a few years ago, David and I got to have just an amazing conversation about sex and our LGBTQ kids. And it was so interesting. And I learned so much. So definitely make a note to go back and listen to that episode as well. But today, we're about some things that are a little more specific to where our kids are today. And certainly we have as parents and some really interesting things that David and his team are up to. So first of all, thank you for being here and welcome.

Thank you so much for having me again. I had so much fun last time we chatted and it's nice to be able to talk with you and with your listeners again about such important topics. So thanks.

Of course, of course. Glad this came up and I feel like things always come up when they're supposed to. And so super timely. You know, all of you all of the topics really that you kind of do your work around are extremely timely. Two things that my listeners and their kids are experiencing. So, before we started recording, you and I were really we were talking about the most recent annual report on youth mental health. And I'm blanking on the name of it. I know there's an official name for that. But I'd like to kind of start there and, you know, get your thoughts on what it says for 2023 in comparison to what it said past and kind of what we're seeing in trends and what that means for our kids. Sure. So

the Centers for Disease Control CDC, which many people are familiar with now, because of thanks to COVID, and the pandemic. Think about the CDC. Now, they don't only deal with physical health, but they also are in charge of helping to monitor the state of mental and physical health, in the population, and in youth. And so the way one of the ways they do that for kids is they administer what's called the Youth Risk Behavior Survey. And I do this at regular intervals, as many of your listeners might have seen in the news a couple of months ago that they issued the most recent sort of findings from that report, because it made headlines all over the place. And I think the biggest headline that people might have seen was simply that kids right now are reporting a lot of distress. When we see that in terms of the numbers of kids that are reporting feeling persistently sad and hopeless, which you still have signs of depression, as well as the numbers of kids who are reporting other behavioral behavioral health challenges like substance use suicidality, things of that nature. And so the headline was that these are the rates of these problems have been increasing in kids for many years. And importantly, that preceded the pandemic. So that was a trend that we were seeing before COVID. Now, certainly, COVID did not make things any better for kids. But we've, what's important is that we can't blame everything that happened, just not COVID. Because we've been seeing this trend of increasing distressing kids for a while. So that's was the headline that readers might have seen. Buried in that was also an important message for parents and for your audience of parents, parents of LGBTQ plus kids. And that's that we saw big differences between the queer kids and the straight kids, in terms of these mental and behavioral health outcomes, with the queer kids faring worse. So we saw like, you know, almost twice the rate of certain problems in the gay kids compared to the straight kids. So that was another piece that was reported on some weapons probably didn't get as much attention as the overall headline, which is just that kids have been struggling. And so, you know, my team over the years has been thinking a lot about how do we try to make that better? How do we address that? And particularly, how do we leverage parents to try to make some of those problems better?

Right, so let's kind of break that down. Because I think these are this is important, this is really, really important. These are questions that people have, and often feel very helpless to be able to do anything about, or to know what to recognize or to, you know, to know what to say even like the very simple things, right? I think a lot of times we jump right to, like the big actionable items, instead of like, here are the very simple statements that you can make, so that your kid knows they're not alone, or they are heard. So I would love to start kind of in that little nitty gritty place, and then build out from there.

Sure, yeah. So I mean, when I think about what do we do to help a kid? I'm just gonna say it, do you mind if I use the term query to refer to? The acronym is so long for me to say over and over?

Here's five Yes, absolutely. When I say

queer, I mean, all of the letters, all of our letters. We, what I always like to say is that, you know, queer kids are first kids. And so there's a lot of science right now about what helps kids in general stay healthy. And I think the first place that we should look when we're trying to keep queer kids healthy is what keeps kids healthy. And so we need to remember that, that we don't necessarily need to do anything different to support our gay kids relative to our shortcuts. So the things that we know keep kids healthy are having close relationships with their families, having close relationships with other norm enforcing institutions, things like schools. If you have a supportive faith communities, being a part of a supportive faith community can be helpful. I'm having close relationships with peers who are pro social, and not the peers who are doing bad things. All of those things we know about kids in general tend to help kids stay healthy. Those are also true for gay kids. In addition, though, gay kids have some unique experiences that I think are important to think about and address. The most prominent of those is that gay kids experience more minority stress what we call minority stress. And what that looks like is discrimination from schools and teachers, families, sometimes and communities, internalizing that discrimination, we call that internalized homophobia or internalized transphobia. So when the kid believes the stuff that they hear, in the media about gay people, and comes to believe that they are less valuable or less worthy themselves, that's a form of stress that's unique, there'll be up to think about pressure to conceal one sexual orientation, or gender identity is a unique stress that gay kids face. And finally, expecting that one might be rejected expectations of rejection, because you see what's happening, even if you haven't actually experienced rejection yourself, you see what's happening nationally, you hear stories from other kids, and you start to worry that in your encounters with other people, they might not go as well, because of that. And so we call that expectations, rejections, and those are all forms of minority stress that are contributing to these problems for gay kids. On top of the things that are helpful and difficult for heterosexual kids. And so I think we need to think about those two buckets of things, what helps kids generally? And what can we do to help? We're kids specifically, and sometimes it's easier for parents to focus in one place or the other. I say, you know, wherever you have the energy, go for it. Right? Because having a parent engaged is generally going to help.

Absolutely well, and I think you could probably start in the place where you feel most comfortable, while you're learning about the places that you don't feel as comfortable or don't feel quite as well equipped to be supportive, even though the likelihood is, no matter how you show up, you're showing up. So just in showing up, you are well equipped. But I think there is that pressure to like, I need to know all the answers, I need to at least have one answer, right. So and I think those those fears come up for parents when they are, you know, parenting their their queer kids specifically and thinking, well, this is what I know to be true. Whether it's, you know, out in the larger world, or in their own community, or in their home. And I'm not quite sure how to combat that, which is a little bit scary. And I so I wonder too, like I was thinking, so with that specific reaction there, as well as talking about the expectation for rejection, which I think is so fascinating, because there's definitely an like, in both of those cases, raising of a boundary or protective bubble that you may not necessarily need, but you're using it right, just because of your using the information you have available to you. What can we do about that? Yeah, so I mean, I think

the best thing parents can do is try to forge a strong relationship with their child. And I think one place that that starts, particularly for families, for your audience. So if someone's coming to your, your, to your podcast, I think, you know, those are generally parents who are wanting to do the best that they can. And parents who are maybe struggling a bit with the fact that they have a queer kid, but are also in a place of enough acceptance, at least to hear you and your messages. And so when I think about speaking to that audience, it's a little different than speaking to sort of the general public who might not be in that same place. But for your your listeners, one of the things that I think is, you know, focus on your relationship with your child. And one place to start is to think about, are there ways that I'm contributing to these to the minority stress that my child experiences, that's maybe a first thing to do is to just sort of take a gentle inventory of your behavior, and see if there are some subtle ways that you might be contributing to this. And not every parent does. But we see some fairly common things that even among well intentioned parents, and so I'd like to kind of raise some awareness about those things sometimes. So some examples of things that parents often don't realize their kids might experience as rejecting are suggesting that your child dress or act differently than they might want to be. because you're concerned, it could elicit bullying or mistreatment. So, you know, we see kids wanting to paint their nails, or wear a shirt that feels a little more out there than a parent is comfortable with. And, you know, lots of parents hate the way their kids dress. But when you think that the way that your child is presenting themselves to the world might make them a target for bullying or victimization, that's really hard for parents. So parents sometimes say like, do you have to do that to their child, or suggest and what what that ends up doing though, although it comes from a place of wanting to protect your child, what it ends up doing is it communicates in a subtle way to your child, that there's something wrong with them, or the way that they're expressing themselves. And that if they do experience mistreatment it they are to blame for it, because they chose to wear something or do something, which was an expression of themselves. And so that's one example of things that we ask parents to just sort of chat themselves at. And say like, you know, it's wonderful that you're concerned about your child, of course, you're concerned about your child. But is there a different way that I can sort of help protect my child when those things besides asking my kids would be different? Right?

Well in Could you, like, frame that into a conversation instead of just a statement or a question that, you know, ends up making your child feel like they are doing something wrong, right. So in a way that it's a discussion about, you know, them being expressive, and that you love how they're expressing themselves, or how they're, you know, trying on new things, right, I just, I just am thinking, as you were saying that I'm thinking about, like, all of the different phases that my kids have gone through all of the above, right, the paint, the painting of the nails, the hair, the piercings, the tattoos, the close, I mean, the whole nine yards. And and I remember feeling that way, very, very early on where I was like, right, like this? Oh, not going to be safe, right? And then I was like, you know, they're being mad.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, and again, it's such a common thing. But I think if you can take inventory of your own behaviors, that's a great place to start. And another thing to do is to sort of ask your child and to say, like, are there things that I do that make you feel more or less supportive about the fact that you're, we're, like other things that I'm doing or things that our family is doing? Sometimes parents don't want their kids to be out about their sexual orientation with certain friends or family members. That's another thing that kids experiences rejecting. Again, parents typically are doing that because they're trying to protect their child from something. And at the same time, what it communicates is, there is something wrong with you, or something shameful about you that I don't want other people to know. So I ask parents to sort of look in those corners of themselves, and say, Are these things that I'm doing to protect my child, might they be experienced as rejection, and if they are, is there another way that I can protect my child? That's, I think, a nice starting point. But another thing I think parents can do is to, again, with their kids permission, get involved in the places where they are experiencing minority stress. So if school is a harder place for your child, because they're queer, that semi get involved in your school, it's time to start having conversations with the principal with the teachers, and their, you know, laws in place to protect kids from mistreatment in schools because of their identity. And there are you know, and it's important that you schools know that you're aware of those laws, right, and that you're going to take action, if they're not doing enough to support and protect your child. And again, with your child's permission, getting engaged in those places, and helping them to advocate for themselves, and you being an advocate for them in those spaces, can really go a long way to improving their experience, and reducing some of that minority stress that they that they that they have in their lives.

Right. Oh my goodness, when I think that's I love that you keep saying that, like, get their permission, talk to them. Because I think that is one piece that oftentimes, especially if your child is in distress, or if the parent is in distress in any way, you kind of forget that you have, like, that's the very best option of all is to actually have a conversation and check in and to see like, where are they and actually ask those questions. And and, you know, and think about where like, be really still and honest with yourself and figuring out where you are with all of this. But then the other piece of that too. Thank you for saying this, which is, you know, bringing up the laws like I don't think a lot of people are aware of the laws that are in place and a lot of states to protect our kids. And when you're thinking of things that you want to do to get involved in what's going on, nationwide, these are the laws that are being attacked. Right. So these are the laws that are being pulled apart and, and taken apart, they are still in place in most places, but get to know what your local laws are. So you know, so you're prepared when you go in for these meetings.

And I think a lot of schools are doing great things. Now, you know, there's a lot of variability in schools, certainly, a lot of schools are doing wonderful things now. And then there are schools that, you know, can do better, and are open to doing better, they just need to be invited to or urged to, you know, and then of course, there were schools in some very challenging places that are struggling, I think, on a number of fronts, including on this front. And I also think keeping that perspective in mind is helpful. Knowing that like, in some cases, schools aren't just struggling to do the right thing for queer kids, they're struggling to do the right thing for kids in general, because they're under resourced and underfunded. And they've been tasked with doing, you know, being everything to all kids. And so I think approaching your school administration with some humility around some of those things is also sometimes a winning strategy. There's a great organization called glisten the Gay Lesbian Straight Education Network. And if you have concerns about school, they are the go to organization that's trying to make schools safer, and more inclusive for sexual minority and gender diverse kids. So I highly recommend if you have questions about the laws, if you have questions about what you can do, or how you can be involved in a school glisten is a great resource for parents.

Yeah, they are amazing. Really, really good. And that's a nice to be able to have those resources that you can, you know, kind of two clicks, and you have a ton of information right there available to you. So

that is a good one, you know, and then I think there are teams like mine, who are trying to create other evidence based resources for parents, and trying to help parents figure out the best ways that they can help protect their kids from specific health risks that we know where kids face. So for example, in addition to the risks that we talked about in terms of depression, and suicide and substance use, queer kids are at higher risk for poor sexual health outcomes. In particular, the boys and the transgender girls are at much higher risk for HIV, and other sexually transmitted infections relative to their cisgender heterosexual peers. And that's seen as something that we had a bit of a conversation about last time. And it's something that our team has been working hard at trying to figure out how can we create tools to help parents protect their kids from those risks. And we have developed a online toolkit that we call past parents and adolescents talking about healthy sexuality to towards your acronym. But what we what we did in between the time that you and I last spoke, and our conversation today is that we did a small trial of this toolkit, it lives online, it takes about 45 minutes for a parent to go through. So it's not super time consuming, but the length of time it takes to listen to one of these podcasts. And what it does is it teaches parents and gives parents options for how to communicate more effectively with their sons about sexual health, and HIV. And what we found, since we last spoke is that the toolkit worked in terms of it got parents to communicate better with their kids. And we found that when we asked the parents about how much communication they were doing after they engaged in the toolkit, but what was interesting was we also separately asked the sons, and the sons we did not intervene with at all, we were really just working with the parents. It's just these parents who went through the toolkit separately after their son's, what their parents were doing. And the sons corroborated what the parents said, that is the sunset. After going through the toolkit, my parents were more likely to talk to me about HIV, they were more likely to help me get access to condoms, and to show me how to use a condom, they're more likely to help me get an HIV test. So we showed that parents were doing more of the right things after we, after they went through the toolkit. And so that was a really important first step. And what we're trying to do now is to see if those parents when they do those things, doesn't matter, actually for the kids. So it's one thing to get parents to do these behaviors to teach. You just gotten them to get their kids access to condoms to talk about HIV. That's important first Step, but the next step is to say, Well, does that matter for the kids do the kids then have better sexual health outcomes down the road. And that's really what we're trying to show in this next large study that we've done. So the National Institute of Mental Health has invested heavily in this research. And we are currently recruiting 350 parents and their son's into a trial, every family will get access to all the resources that we've created, they just get access to them at different times during the course of the trial. And then what we do is we compare families before they get the resources and after to see if it matters both for the parent behaviors are they still able to change those parents behaviors, and when the parents behaviors change, then are their kids healthier. So that's really what we're trying to do with this study. So we're enrolling 350 parents and their sons, and we follow them all for a year, we pay them to thank them for their time, because we know that families are busy, and nobody wants to complete a survey. So we pay them to do that. So thank them, parents can make I think something like $350 over the course of the year. So it's not like we're we're supplementing your income fully. But it's just a way to think thank you for your time. And the kids can make I think up to $175, they do everything. And then we're going to see whether these things matter for the kids. And of course, we think they will, but it's important to prove it. And so that's what we're doing correctly. So if you want to know what parents can do to help their kids, they studies, not just ours. But other studies, too. I'm making a shameless plug for what we're doing right now. But there's other reasons, there are other researchers out there that are trying to understand and help families. And if you have the time, to engage, you can help science and in many cases, you get access to really cutting edge resources, like the ones that we've created just for families.

Right? Right. Well, that's what I was just gonna say, I mean, this isn't just like, sit online and take do a survey, this is like, really access to what you have been working on already and proven to be helpful and useful. And it works.

Your parents will are interested, I'll just imagine you'll probably put this on your site too. But by this time at parents with love.org, yes, that's where we sort of have kept all of our resources. That's where you can see if you qualify for the research. If you don't qualify for the research, there are other resources that we have for you. So I encourage parents to check that out parents with love.org 100%. Yes.

So this will all be not only in the show notes, this is going to live on my website for quite some time, until you get all the people that you need. And so yeah, so if you can find it on my website, email me, and I'll get you connected. I wanted to ask a couple of clarifying questions. Because I'm sure there are questions that people are wondering. So first of all, boys, why just boys, why not boys and girls?

It's a great question. The messages that we need to give our sons are slightly different than the messages we need to give our daughters. So that's the first thing and so we're trying to like, take one chunk at a time, one chunk of families at a time. And we find that when we overwhelm parents with information that's not relevant to them, it becomes harder for them to take the steps and you know that 45 minute toolkit becomes an hour and a half toolkit. So, we've started with parents of boys, because their sexual health outcomes are the poorest of all groups of teenagers right now. So currently, in the United States, among kids who get HIV among teenagers who get HIV, eight out of 10 of them, 80% of them are gay, or bisexual boys. So when we think about who most needs this particular resource, it's the parents of the boys. And so that's why we started there. What we're asking NIH for more money to do, we'll be asking them in just a month or two, is to create a similar toolkit for parents of trans kids. Because after the boys, the trans kids have the next worst sexual health outcomes. And so, and again, the message is that parents need to get to their trans kids or you know, in some ways, very similar, but they need to be delivered differently. Because transplants speak about their bodies differently, and they partner with people differently. And so we want to make sure that we're guiding parents specifically to do the right thing for those kids so that their kids so that their kids can hear the messages. If we told parents or trans kids to say the same things that were telling parents of gay boys to say their kids wouldn't necessarily listen. And they would hear it the same way, because we wouldn't be giving them the same guidance. So we're doing it one step at a time. Basically, that's a long winded answer to your question. Oh,

that's good. Because I think, you know, people need, this is something that people are trying to figure out, right? Like, is this right for me? Do I even, you know, look into this? And why or why not? So, as you bring up the way that parents would, you know, speak and teach their transgender children is different than they would teach their, you know, queer kids, their gay kids, their, you know, daughters, you understand what I'm trying to say here, in the tool box? Or in these discussions? Do you give kind of like, here's how you talk about sex with your gay son, or here's how you talk about sex with your bisexual son, or Here are the tools that your son needs to know. How do you go about educating the parent? And how to have these conversations? Because one of the things I remember vividly about our first conversation, and that we laughed about a lot was the whole talk, right? Having the sex talk, right. And we I mean, I still like giggle about this, because it was such a funny, but like, also like, wow, like, we're not supposed to just say this once. Like we're supposed to talk about this all the time. So is this a piece of how you're educating and the information that you're offering?

Yeah, absolutely. So we're asking parents to do like, we basically break it down into, we have a cut, there are a couple of modules. And so the things that we try to do is we try to want to get parents to have a conversation with their sons about HIV. And we talked and we give parents a number of choices for how to do that. So you can have a direct conversation with your kid. If you think your child's going to be mortified by that, we also have a way for you to send them like a PDF, email or text them a PDF of a fact sheet. That can be like a conversation starter. Or if you think like I can't even begin to have any sort of conversation, just getting that fact sheet alone from you via email, or text sends your child up the message that you care about this stuff, and that you want them to hear about it, even if your family is not the kind of family that's ever going to have like a deep conversation about it. So we give parents in each case, choices for how they think that they can accomplish a given task, given who their family is, because parents are the experts on their families. We're the experts on HIV and sexual health, but you're the expert on your family. And so what we try to do is give you a menu of options for each of the things that we want parents to do, so that they can choose what's going to work for their family. And in many cases, it's send your child a video that demonstrates how to put a condom on, right. If you are more comfortable than that, if you're capable of more than that, then we asked you to do more if you're able to bring home condoms, and then banana, and are willing to have your child do a demonstration and teach them how to do it physically. That's probably the best thing you can do for your child. But that's not going to work for every family, parents choices for how to do each of these things. And you are correct. You have great memory from years ago, one of the things we encourage parents is to have ongoing conversations about these topics with their with our kids. Everyone always talks about the talk. And this should not be a one time events by any means. And the reason for that is that kids are getting messages about sex, some of them healthy, some of them unhealthy all the time, every single day of their lives. Your child is hearing about sex from advertisers in movies, from their friends from society at large every single day. Do you only want to be a voice in that conversation one time when your child is 13 or 14 years old? Like I think parents want to be engaged in that conversation throughout their child's lives. Because if you're not engaged, somebody else's engaged all the time. 100% Yeah, that's why we encourage parents to do it. And we know it's just more effective when it's an ongoing conversations. Sometimes kids hear a little bit at one point, and they digest a little bit. But then when you have the conversation again, and a month or two months later, they'll digest a little bit more. You know, it's interesting. I'm the parent of a teenager now my son just turned 13. And I don't know what his sexual orientation is going to be. So I don't know whether my work applies specifically to him. But we haven't very open convert have always had very open conversations about sex partly because during the pandemic, his little office was next to mine. And I do this work all day long. And so he'd be in class, and he'd be like, Dad, I mean, mad class, will you stop talking about the sacks but what happened was it's really opened the door for us to have ongoing conversations and now my son will come to me and say And then you've talked about clients, can I see a condom? Like, he'll ask me if you can see what it kind of looks like. And I had no idea it would have worked. So again, now we have the capacity to have ongoing open conversations about these things. And I think that's really what we're trying to get other parents to do as well. Yes, yeah. It's kind of an accident in our case.

Oh, my gosh, I love that, that I think that is such a, it's actually quite refreshing. Because the first time or at least in my experience, the first time with each of my kids talking about it, it's it's uncomfortable, like, nobody wants to talk about it. But the more you bring it up, and you kind of feel you feel like your kids and you figure out like, what they're like, you know, who they are, who they're growing up to be, how they, how they are in this world as teenagers, as opposed to how they were as small children, which are two very different things. And just their communication styles. It becomes like, almost fun. Weirdly, yeah,

I really think it can be and you have to start somewhere. Yeah, eight,

just rip the band aid off, like, just know that it's gonna feel weird the first time you do it, and then, you know,

yeah, yeah, exactly. And you know, what's interesting is when we were starting this work, I wasn't sure what was going to happen. You know, we started interviewing families. And we would interview before we created the toolkit, we interviewed parents and kids together. And we asked them questions about how do you talk about sex? Do you talk about sex, and for many dyads, this was the very first time that they had ever like really had such an explicit conversation. And because it was happening in the context of our these interviews, where we were trying to learn from them, right. But what was fascinating was, oftentimes, parents and kids started having the conversations for the first time, just right in front of us. And all it took was the invitation. All it took was somebody giving them permission, or asking them to talk about it. And, you know, we thought we were just interviewing them. But it turned out that the interview itself was an intervention. And it just, it didn't take very much. And suddenly, like families were often having conversations, and parents started asking their kids questions that they'd never asked them before. And kids started asking their parents questions that they had never asked them before. And what people realized, I think, in those moments was like, the world didn't even know, it was a little bit uncomfortable. At first, everyone felt so much better, after they had sort of like, created a space to have this conversation, and were able to experience it like, it wasn't, it wasn't that hard. People to give it a try.

I mean, you have to try at least one time. Because I think you'll be very, very surprised. I was just remembering this funny story. A friend of mine who has kids that are similar to my older kids aged Irish, and she has two boys. And they're both heterosexual, but she always was like, from when they were little, little, having wherever they would go, she would bring up sex, we're going to talk about sex. So when these kids, you know, she's telling these stories to all of us, you know, they're 10. And she's, she's teaching them this and telling him this. And you know, as they get older and older, and I remember her telling the story of, you know, once they got into high school, she just kept a bowl of condoms in the front of their house. So anybody that came into their house could just grab a handful of condoms. And I was like, well, that's kind of brilliant. Like, you know, they're no more juice boxes. Now. It's condoms. You just kind of roll. And but she's kind of, you know, a little bit ahead of the curve, I would say for at least our generation of parents, right? I think that this is now something that we're getting more comfortable talking about. And certainly I think the next generation is going to be that much better at doing this. And one of

the things you know, it's interesting, that condom example, I think, is a good one, one of the things we really try to do in our toolkit is help parents reframe some of these things. So I think, you know, I'm sure some of your listeners hear that and think like, Oh, my God, I could never put a bowl of condoms up because that would be, you know, it seems it seems so far out there. And one of the biggest things parents are afraid of doing is that they're going to by having these conversations or offering condoms, they're encouraging their kids to have sex. And one of the things that we do in this toolkit too, is try to re educate parents around the science of this. And what happens is actually the more you talk to your kid about sex, the less interested they are. Not surprising. Right? When you really think about it, having more conversations with your kids about these things does not make it more exciting. It makes it just seem more Like dolt and political and something that mom is involved with, or dad is involved with. And, you know, so for example, when it comes to giving your kids, we sort of tried to make parents aware of the fact that it's just like any other safety device that you have around the house. Like, because you have a fire extinguisher in your home, does that mean that your child does that encourage your child to light fires? If there's a fire, your child can put it out having a lifejacket in the garage, does that like Encourage your child to swim in a dangerous way? No, it's just something that you have, in case you need it. Right? The same thing goes for condoms, having condoms around the house does not encourage your child to have sex, it just means that if they are in a situation or one of their friends are in a situation where they need it, they're more likely to be able to be safe. Right? So we're trying to understand and so we share these sorts of comparisons with parents in a way to help them get more comfortable with some of these things that might feel a little bit more advanced than they're ready for. It turns out when you think about it, like a fire extinguisher, it feels a lot less threatening, right.

100% 100%. And I think too, it kind of makes us, you know, weirdly makes his conversations a little bit easier to have by doing something that is just a almost a gesture, right? But then it kind of opens the door for other questions and other conversations. So not that I'm suggesting that everyone puts bowls of condoms in the front of their house. But I just think that that's, you know, it's one thing that I've always remembered as well, that's, that's such a, you know, interesting way to handle that and a possibility and option so you can keep them in a drawer in the bathroom.

Exactly. You know, what the what we asked in the toolkit is a parent's, you know, find some way to make sure that their child has access to condoms. And that does not mean saying like, boy, I know they have them at school. Bring them into your home. Yes. How them somewhere where your child can access them. That's always that that's one of the things that we asked parents to find a way to do. Yes. And there's absolutely no evidence that doing that will encourage your child to have sex. In fact that there is any evidence, it's that it's sort of it's a deterrence. You just made something that seemed really titillating, interesting, way less interesting for your job.

I mean, just by the mere fact of talking about it. Now, oh, my goodness, that is, so I'm just thrilled that this is where your work is taking you from when we you know, we spoke a couple of years ago, and I cannot wait to hear in a year or two down the road, what you've learned from this study, because I think this will be this is just a really amazing step. And not just educating parents, but really helping our kids. You know, not just educationally but safety wise. Right. And, and, you know, hopefully this will be one of the pieces that helps get those HIV numbers to start coming down. And to you know, really build some understanding around that. So thank you for all of the work. Thank you are doing.

Spread the word about these things. It takes both like you to get the science out there. You know, we're good at writing papers. But we're not always great. Scientists are not always great at getting the message out to people who are on the front lines and parents are on the front lines with this issue right now. Yes, there's a lot of issues. And so I really appreciate the opportunity to talk to your audience of parents about these things. And we'll happy to come back and share more.

Well, there are just Yes, there are so many things that I wish we would have had time to get to. So well. We will definitely do a round three on on this discussion, and an update and all of that. But just a recap for everyone. This all of this information will be in the show notes as well as on my website. So you can take a look in either place. But I will make it as easy as possible for you to be able to contact David and his team to see if you are eligible for this survey and to be able to help and really putting together and finding finding out some valuable, valuable research that you're doing. So thank you so much

worse. Thank you for having me.