Beyond the Pitch: Building Trust and Closing Sales with the Black Sheep Method with Aleasha Bahr

Hello everyone, and welcome to this week's episode of The Marketing Media and Money podcast. And I am so excited to be talking about sales. I think we all love to talk about sales right, especially when we're going to talk about how to improve them. So here's my question for you, what if closing sales felt as natural is having a genuine conversation without pressure pitching or pretending to be someone else. Imagine cringe free sales conversations that converted up to 80% of leads by embracing authenticity, understanding your client's needs and ditching the typical sales pressure scripts or pitches. Now that sounds good to you. Let me tell you. The person we are having as our guest today is somebody who has nailed this totally is crushing it. Let me tell you a little bit about her. So Aleasha Bahr is a sales Strategist, Speaker, best selling, author and founder of the black sheep sales method, because if it's a fit, it's a fact, and there's no selling involved. She has 15 years of experience customizing sales strategies to your personality, audience and service, because sales is not a one size fits all. Her methods empower business owners to effortlessly convert up to 80% of their leads without pressure pitching or pretending to be someone else. She sold 50 million plus in services herself and has helped others sell 17 point 5 million over the last four years alone with her proven personalized approach. So I have to tell you, I'm so excited. Alicia, thank you so much for being here with me today.

Thank you, Patty. I'm so excited to be here with you.

I have to tell you, like you and I have been like, going in and out with so many different places. We're showing up. We speak on the same stages. We're like, part of the same organizations. But I remember, like, a little over a year and a half ago, I heard you speak, and you were actually breaking down the black, you know, sheep sales methods. And I remember thinking to myself, Wow, that is really incredible. Like, it was extraordinary. And I thought, Wow, I've never had anybody say it that way. And you know, sometimes when people share something with you, you're like, oh my gosh, that just makes so much sense. Why doesn't everybody understand it? And I knew then that I needed to have you on the podcast, and we have just spent so much time together since then that I'm so glad that we're actually finally able to make this happen. So let's just dive right in. So can you share the philosophy behind the black sheep sales method and how it really shifts the traditional sales approach Yes.

So the mainstream sales approach is about everybody being a yes, no matter what the goal is, to get the credit card where it starts saying like Friend or foe, get the dough. So the black sheep sales method is the only goal is fitting someone to your solution, and not everyone is a fit, and that's okay, and you'll actually sell a lot more than if you were trying to make everybody a fit. Is the irony, because people can feel the difference in someone who just wants to get you to buy something because it's in their best interest, versus it being in the prospect's best interest to move forward.

Yes, I think you see that a lot when you could tell is somebody actually listening to you when they ask you a question. Are they just waiting for you to pause so they could jump right in with their next point? Right? They already have it. It's almost like you're waiting for them to say, Oh, wait, wait, wait, you can't answer that right now, because that question is like, six down, and I haven't got there, you know? So I get that right, and I love your philosophy, and with your approach, I've heard you say that clients can achieve 80% COVID rates. I mean, that's that's pretty good. Now I know that I have a better than 80% conversion rate, but I know that I don't want everybody is not my client. I understand it. I know it. I only want to work with my dream clients that I wake up every day and feel so good that they're my clients, right? So what would you say are the core principles that make this possible without having that traditional sales pressure. Yeah,

So a lot of times people think that, you know, the things that someone needs to be really good at sales are being charming and smooth and persistent and outgoing and high energy and really, with the black sheep sales method, you just need curiosity, empathy and passion, because sales is really just a conversation where you want to make the prospect feel seen and heard, and ideally, you do that by genuinely. And hearing them, and it makes their what you're talking about, where it's like, it's so true the question that six questions down, like, you can't answer that one yet, and I'm just waiting to ask my question. It's a symptom of a script. And you cannot script something as unpredictable as two humans. There's so many ways that a conversation could go. So I mean, I create frameworks or structure for people, but there have to be those softer skills in that conversation that you rely on, which are like curiosity and empathy and passion. And I think it's really important too, because, you know, like,

You hear so many quotes like, you know, it's a numbers game, and to get to the yes, you have to have this many nos. And, you know, I'm thinking not really, like it is a conversation, and I have always found that if you do convert doing it the wrong way, as we're saying, right, you're gonna have to keep on selling it to them every month, over and over and over again, because they're not all in because they realize that you didn't really customize it to them, right? It wasn't really about them. It's like, No, you fit me into your program, instead of creating something that, because we have a conversation, fits what they look for, like, what's going to get them the results that they're looking for? So I think that it's time for a shift. And I love this whole black sheet, you know, method. I think it is just, you know, fabulous. And you have 15 years of experience in customizing these sales strategies, right? But how do you tailor the sales strategy to align with all the different personalities and industries there are out there.

Yeah, I love that you pointed out personalities, because I think that a lot of people miss that, like someone will be like, Oh, this script. It's amazing. Everybody has to use the script. That script works for the person who wrote it. If it's their personality, if it's their industry, if it's their audience, and that's why it works so well. So whenever I work with somebody, I understand their audience and their offer inside and out first, and then I put together the structure that will lead a conversation and the numbers game. It's like, if you're getting a bunch of no's, you're talking to the wrong people, what are you doing? And it becomes very discouraging, and it hurts your confidence, and it's draining, and then you start dreading conversations, whereas if you're talking to the people that you know are the best fit, instead of like anyone who has a pulse, you're going to show up differently to that conversation, like I know this person is exactly where I can help them, and I know the impact I can make on them, and you're just that that confidence and passion the other person can feel that and so that, Along with strategic questions that are specific to your industry. So, like, for example, I worked with a migraine expert. She helped people permanently eliminate migraines, and she was asking people, like, if she could wave a magic wand, you know, what would they want to happen in like, you know, 90 days a year, three years this, like, very generic sales question that's popular. Have you heard that one

I have, but wouldn't they really just want to know how to get rid of my headache?

Yeah, totally. So like, she needs to ask questions that are specific. Like, what is your nutrition like? Do you notice any patterns when you get a headache? Is it related to anything these questions that are going to be like, oh, this person is an expert at what they do. They're an expert at migraines, not something generic that anybody could ask whether they were like helping you, you know, bring on an admin person, or selling you marketing like, the same question, if that doesn't make any sense. And then I also help them construct a way to communicate what they do in a way that that really justifies the value, because a lot of people are doing themselves justice. When they explain what they do, they're focusing on, like, number of meetings or number of reports, or like this widget or this many posts, and when you do that, all of a sudden, everybody's like, well, I get seven posts with this person, and you only do five posts, and it's like, it's not about that, so helping them communicate what it's really about and the difference between them and other options

I think that's because a lot of times people think that it's about features and benefits, and people aren't buying features and benefits. They're buying results, right? So are you talking about the results that you can get. I think that from a responsibility point of view too. I mean, when we invite somebody into our program, we have a responsibility right to deliver what we say. And I think one of the greatest compliments, right? You know that? What we can get is when people get us like I know that, for example, this past week, I just had this big launch that I did. And I have to tell you the thing, more than how many people signed up. More than that, what meant the most to me is how many people that I hadn't really got into and said anything yet, and they were like, Oh, I'm in. I said I haven't told you yet. They're like, No, I don't care. Like, I was like, I haven't even told you what the investment is. They're like, I don't care. Like, you know what I mean. And so I feel like, when you build relationships with people and then they know like and trust you, you have a responsibility for that, right? You have a responsibility to make sure that you deliver, but I also think you have a responsibility in making sure that you're being authentic, that you're really listening to them, and that the conversation is really about them, not about you, because it really has nothing to do with us. It's really about them.

Yeah, absolutely. A lot of sales people like if they're a salesperson. They kind of think the person sold on the pitch, but they're not. I've seen people that are quote, unquote sold just based on the questions you're asking, because they're giving the person insight and ahas, and once you just show that something different is possible, like I call it hope selling, people are excited to move forward. So I'm guessing that what you did showed people what was possible, and they wanted more of it.

Yeah, I think that is really the point, right? Is what is possible? Because when they're looking for a solution, obviously what they're already doing isn't working, and so they want to see, well, what is possible, because they're already trying to do what they're doing. And I think a lot of times when they really start having those sales conversations, because, you know, sometimes you have a sales conversation with somebody and they're just becoming aware that they need this, right? But then there's times you have conversations with somebody and they're in a lot of pain, because they've tried this and they've tried this, and they've tried this, and nothing has worked for them, right? So then all of a sudden, when you're talking to them about different possibilities, all of a sudden, they're like, oh my gosh, nobody's ever told me about that. I hadn't really thought about that, but you don't know that if you don't listen and ask questions, right? Input equals output,

Absolutely. And one of the things that really helps my clients so much is something I call pitch weaving. And it's basically, it's not pitching in the way that it's like, we do this and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, which is, you know, sounds like selling somebody's like, Oh, you're selling yourself. What it is is giving them insight into why what they're doing isn't working for them, and as a result, that gives them hope, because they can understand how you're different from what they're doing right now. Because everybody's just worried that this is going to be the same experience I've had before, or the same experience that I've heard nightmare stories about, or whatever. And so it's really important for them to understand why they're in the situation that they're in and how it could be different moving forward, which is what creates that hope, and it's insight. It's like the AHA into their situation where they're like, Oh, I didn't think about that, just like you said, or I didn't know about that, or that's new information for me, basically,

No, I think that is really important, you know, right now, I think it is centrally, very, very important. But it's also become a buzzword too, in copy and sales copy specifically, you know, authenticity, right? You know authenticity is central to your approach, right? And but I think people are hearing it so much now they really want us to be it, not talk about it, right? How do you encourage clients, though, to remain authentic to who they are, especially in an industry that's often associated with performance?

Yeah, that's such a great question. I mean, so sales people and then owners who are selling their services are a little different. I would have the same advice for all of them. But the sales people are really being ranked on performance in a way that's like uncomfortable, whereas the service owner obviously wants to sell because they need money, you know, they need an income, a life, so they should. A lot of people are concerned, if they're awkward or quiet or introverted, that it's not gonna they're not gonna be good at sales, but that's a pattern interrupt that can be very powerful, because everybody's expecting their salesperson to be this charming, chatty talks about small talk, forever, type of person, and when the person is quieter or even can come out and say, You know what? I feel really awkward about sales, but I want to find out if I can help you and that kind of a thing. It really takes the pressure off and makes the conversation. And much more honestly, it establishes more trust, because the person's being real. So you can, you can. I have seen the MO The best salespeople be introverts, because you never suspect it. They're so quiet, they're very good at listening, they're very good at asking questions, and as a result, they're very good at saying something specific to you that's relevant, which makes you want to move forward with them, rather than the extrovert who's just saying the same thing to everybody.

I think that is so logical. Makes a lot of sense. I'm sure that there are people listening that are like, Oh, wow. Like, I do that, right? You know, or I've had that happen to me many, many times, right? So you talk a lot about questions, right? We keep talking about questions, which I love that, right? You know, ask better questions. You'll get better answers, right? You know, could you share an example of some questions that help sell services or products, naturally that would make prospects feel genuinely valued and not like they're just another prospect or lead. Yeah,

Well, so I don't know if it makes them feel they definitely would feel like this was a different kind of conversation, you know. So, for example, I work with a social media marketer, and one of the things that's different about what she does is her team engages on other people's content on your behalf. That is different. Most marketing agencies will just post and leave. They're not going to engage with your ideal audience. And so one of the ways that we have the person understand this difference. I mean, first of all, we of course, ask them what their experience has been up to this point, and we ask if they do engage with other people, and if they don't, we point out, well, we understand because it's a lot of work. It's very time consuming, and it is the difference when somebody engages on your content consistently. Do you remember that person or and they'll say yes, and it clicks for them, right? Like by asking that they understand, Oh, my God, that's gonna make a difference in my ideal clients noticing me, versus with other agencies where I just posted content and I didn't get anything from it. So like asking those questions that are going to specifically unlock an insight specific to how you're different and how their experience could be different.

Now that makes a lot of sense, because you're right. It's like a pattern just disrupt, right, you know? And they haven't heard that, and all of a sudden they're thinking like you said, possibilities like, Oh, wow. What could be better if all of a sudden people were engaging? So that's a that's a really good one. So how do you approach objections? Right? We all get objections, right, but in a way that feels effortless and preserves the integrity, per se, of the sales conversation, right? You know, because you're going to get them no matter how great your conversation is, people always have them, right?

Yeah, yes. So it is very natural for the majority of people, before they invest in something to think, what if I'm wrong? What if this is going to be a waste of money? Most people, there are exceptions, of course, who are like, I don't care. I know that. I just invest in stuff and I try it, and sometimes that works and like, that's the dream, right? You get a client who's just, like, not worried about it, but most of the time, people are concerned about making the quote, unquote, right choice, and they're very scared of making the wrong choice. So one of the ways that really helps dealing with objections is to proactively overcome them. So for example, the holidays right now is going to be a real a real pain in the ass objection. I want to wait until the new year. So proactively, you would ask, what are your plans for the holidays? Do you have anything in place that's going to offset the usual swamp? Is that something that you know, do you see a benefit in that, like having that conversation up front, will offset it coming up at the end? And then there are things that are really specific to your service. So with social media, for example, like, when do you need these results? Like, is it tomorrow? Is it 90 days? We need at least 90 days to test things. Is that going to be okay for you? So having that conversation up front now, when the objections come up at the end, and a lot of times they'll come up in the form of a question, and so a lot of people miss the objection because they just answer the question. So for example, someone will be like, Well, what's your process? And they'll be like, well, and they'll tell them all about their process, and the other person isn't satisfied by that answer, because there was something specific they were looking for. Within the process they were looking for it to be included, or for it to for them to find out if it's missing, right? So really, the question is, like, is there something specific? Like, they say, what's your process? And you say, is there something specific that you're looking to avoid? Is there something specific you want to make sure is included? So then you can give them the answer that they need, instead of going on a really long tangent all about your process and the other person not feeling any more like they want to work with you, and the mainstream way of overcoming objections is really like, just to tell them why their concern is wrong, right? Like, oh, I'm not, not sure if the timing is right. Well, let me tell you why the timing's right? You know, they go on a long tangent about how the timing's right. Are you convinced as a prospect, it's like what you expect? Right? I expect you to tell me that my concern doesn't matter. It's not valid and it's wrong. So instead, you really want to explore these concerns as potentially valid because maybe they're not a fit if it's valid. So when someone has an objection, you get curious about it, so that you can understand if it's valid, and leaving space for it to be valid, not like questions that are just going to make it so they're they have to be forced to admit that it's not valid. So, like, for example, I don't know if I have enough time. Well, how much time do you have? Let's go from there. Instead of being like, well, it's really not that time consuming. And you have all of these things at your fingertips so that you know you can tap in for accountability, and one on one calls and hand holding and blah, blah, blah, instead how much time do you have? And they're like, Oh, I mean, I probably have, like, an hour a day. And you're like, you need an hour a week. Like, a lot of times it's like a lack of clarity or confusion.

Now, actually, that one was really good, because I think that a lot of times there's a lot of myths involved there, really in how much time things really take, and you're right when you and I think for me too, a lot of times, I think if you really pay attention, you'll see that a lot of times you get asked the same things like, oh, reactions are the same. I mean, not every time, but, I mean, I don't think I ever have a sales conversation. Somebody for as long as long as I've been doing what I've been doing, has come up with a question I've never heard before, right? Maybe a little bit different, but it's very rarely ever something that I haven't heard before, although I do have to tell you, I did one time have somebody actually, it was kind of interesting. I said I wouldn't make you laugh, but really, somebody actually said to me one time, said, Patty, I need to pray about it. That was like their answer, yeah, yes, I need to pray about it. And I was literally on this training with somebody else, right? Somebody else. So they had to answer the question. I was there, and I didn't know what they were going to do. I had no idea of what they were going to do, and I was all ready to, like, to jump in and help. And literally, they said, Okay, let's pray. Like, literally, right there. They held out their hands, and I was like, wow, like that. I was like, mind bothered by that answer. And obviously they didn't get the sale. So obviously, in case you hadn't figured that out, obviously they didn't get stale, yeah, but I mean, sometimes, you know, really honestly, when you're thinking about it, do you get asked the same questions over and over again? Because would you say that, if you see that, maybe you get the same three to five, you know, objections over and over and over again, like is part of your pitch weaving. I love that word, by the way, that you can just kind of overcome them in the conversation before you ever get to the objections. Right?

Yes, definitely. So when I work with people, I ask about the most common objections, and then I you outside of Christ, because that's always one. And then the most common object, the most common questions that they get, because the questions are often hidden concerns or objections, and then you can, like, layer it in ahead of time to offset that so you're right. Timing might come up a lot. Let's talk about timing. Time investment might come come up a lot. We got to talk about how much time it takes for them to do it. Maybe it comes up a lot that you know they don't have a staff to help them. So let's talk about that up front. So definitely identifying the patterns whenever I work with someone, some of the questions I ask are, what patterns do you see in the people who move forward? What patterns do you see in the people who do not move forward? What patterns do you see in the clients who love working with you and have great results, and what patterns do you see in the people who are not happy and do not get results?

And so those are good patterns to be paying attention to, really, because that can change everything. Right? Moving forward,

It really can, and it helps you identify who's the best fit, because a lot of times you're accepting people who aren't the right fit, and that's why they're not getting results in there and happy, either because of their expectations or their attitude or their resources or something like that. And so up front, you can say, like, you know, what are you expecting from this? If, like, one that comes up a lot is from marketing. People expect leads, and they expect leads to already be sold. They're like, don't have a sales process in place. They just want them to come with their money out. And so it's like, let's talk about this. Like, what does your sales process look like? Are you open to adjusting that? Are you open to feedback around that? Because what we find is a lot of times people will get leads and they can't convert them, and then they think it's a leads issue, and it's not. It's sales issue. So you can have that conversation up front.

Now, I think that makes a lot of sense. So what do you think it takes to, say, Master the flow of a sales conversation? And could you share maybe an outline of a typical conversation structure that has been successful, like just a little bit of a you said you had a framework, so just kind of a little bit so people really understand that. It really is about flow, right? You know, I think flow is so important really, because it's, again, like we said earlier, like, Oh no, that's, you know, number six question down, right? Having a flow, even though you don't have to have a script, but you should kind of have a flow,

Definitely a structure. There are certain things that you want to know about the other person, and there's certain things that you want to communicate to the other person. So the thing that's really great about having something customized to you is it works immediately. So a lot of times when I work with clients, they'll get the next conversation they have is a sale, and all the conversations after that because they have something that's been tailored to them, including their language. Because when I work so collaboratively, it's like, would you say this? Is this accurate? Do you feel comfortable with this? Because there's no reason to say it some way that you don't feel comfortable. Like, one of the first questions I really like to ask is, what inspired you to book this call? Because it uncovers a lot. It covers challenges. It uncovers things they've tried, and it uncovers feelings all kinds of things, right? But sometimes the clients, like, I would never say the word inspired, and it's like, okay, great. Thank you for telling me, because then you'll never say that question if it's written like that. So if you want to say what motivated you, you know what's going on right now that made you want to book a call, whatever the language is. So once you have, like, language that fits your personality and represents you and your business, it becomes a whole lot easier. The flow for the conversation is, generally, I do like starting off with that question, what inspired you? I'm not really big on rapport, because sometimes people go in what I call a rapport hole, where they'll just talk about everything but business, and they're like, We had such a great conversation, they're definitely gonna buy and it's like no, just because y'all had so much in common did not mean that they trusted you to give you their money. It's a different thing. Sometimes people even buy from people they don't like, simply because they trust them as an expert. Liking is not necessary, although it definitely helps, but it can't be sold just on being likable. So oh for sure.

I always say sometimes to some of my clients, they're like, oh my gosh, I did this. And they were saying how brilliant I was, and I was this, I was that. I'm like, Okay, I have one question. And they're like, what I'm like, do you work for compliments, or do you work for cash? Let's be let's be clear. Which is it like? What is it like? I don't know about each but I can't pay my mortgage payment with compliments. So confidence. So yeah, you know when you're thinking about it, right? And so sometimes they focus, like you said, on having this really great rapport. I even said one time, and somebody said, wow, Patty, that is really rough. But you said that I'm like, But when I'm having like, you know how sometimes you have that, like, initial conversation that you're having with somebody, and they want to talk about, like their dog and their kids and all this kind of stuff. Now, first of all, if we end up working together or become power partners or collaborate on something or any or like, just start building a relationship. I do want to know about your dog. I love dogs, right? Yeah, to myself, right. I do want to know about your kids and all that kind of stuff, but in that conversation, in the beginning, telling me your kid's name and your dog's name and all that kind of stuff, right? Now, I'm just trying to decide if I ever want to have another conversation with you ever again, you know, like when we get off this call, it doesn't help if I'm never speaking to you again, but I could tell you your dog's name and your kid's name and whatever, and that's not why they're having a conversation with you, right? You know. So I think that sometimes people, I think people do is sometimes what you say, because they feel awkward about having the sales conversation. So they avoid the sales conversation by having all these other conversations, feeling like, oh, this is getting us all nice, warm and fuzzy. And they feel really good, right, you know? So that's. No, no,

That's very insightful and very true. A lot of people think like, oh, I'm really good at having a small talk conversation, so I'm just gonna focus on that, and then I wanna talk about business, and I'm really scared of telling them how much it costs, so I'm just gonna breeze right past that. So yeah, rapport whole definitely, like only three to five minutes of rapport and then really getting into it, like so what's going on? I don't personally, mainstream sales likes this agenda setting. If the agenda benefits, you do it. If it makes you feel anchored, do it. A lot of people feel awkward, and it's because it is awkward. In my opinion. Personally, I feel like saying, Hey, this is how it's gonna go. I'm gonna ask you some questions, and then if it sounds like a fit, I'll tell you what we do, and then you can ask me some questions. It's like, now the sales call is starting, you know, and everybody can, like, put their guard up. Like, here it goes. So I don't, I really want it to feel like a conversation, so like, let's just have one instead of telling them how conversations work. Like if your prospect is confused about what's happening, there's something else going on. And it's not the fact that you didn't set an agenda. It's that you're confusing in some way. If you're asking questions that make sense and are relevant to the person they know what's going on, usually. So then you ask strategic questions, kind of dialing in from there. Definitely want to ask, like, what was your past experience with this, you know, what have you done? Has any of it worked? Did you like any of it? Did you not like any of it? You know, what are you concerned about? And then getting into more specific questions that are, you know, specific to their offer and audience. Then I usually like to transition into the sale Once you've gathered all the informations about expectations and timelines and what they've done, and you're pitch weaving throughout the discovery section, because mainstream sales says that you need to save your pitch for the end, so you're supposed to ask questions and give no feedback, which is awkward. It's like, feels like an interrogation, like a rapid fire interrogation, kind of out of therapy and the prospects, like, Okay, what's up? Like, what? Why are you asking me this stuff? So instead give them feedback on their answer, like, they're like, Yeah, you know, I tried to get somebody to help me recruit, and I've been through like, three different people in this position, and it's just killing my business. And you're like, wow, that's incredibly frustrating and very expensive and draining. Like, show them some empathy. And the issue is that a lot of times somebody is is interviewing someone based on skills, but not culture fit. So was the person also searching for a culture fit. So that's an example of pitch weaving, where you're able to really, like, give them an insight into why it didn't go wrong, and reflect back to them that it really sucks that they've had such a bad time, where so often somebody will, like, spill their heart out and tell you all this horrible things that have happened to them, and people are like, yes, so Well, for me, that won't happen. Oh God, thank God. I luckily most people don't say something that, like, obviously salesy, but they usually just go to, like, the next question, and it's like, this person just like, showed you their heart on a platter. And you were like, cool, you know. And when's your next event, you know? Like, it's like, geez, can you make them feel seen? So anyway, once you have all of your information and you've been pitch weaving so that it's not all saved up for this pitch at the end, because also, people are tired at that point and they're like, not hanging on your every word, you know, then the transition usually is like, Okay, I don't see any red flags here, like you expect results yesterday, or that you're not going to collaborate with me. You're looking you're actually seem like a great fit, because you have all of these assets in place, and you just need a strategy that ties them together, and that's what we do best. And so you kind of sell them why they're a fit, and then you explain your service. So what we do is we take people from point A to point B in three months. For the first month, we're going to dive deep into what you've already done, so we can take out the pieces that don't work and keep the pieces that do. The second month is the strategy that is going to leverage the pieces that worked and try things that, based on our experience have worked really well with your audience. And then the third month is refining that strategy based on debt, something like that, right? And there's checking questions throughout this quote, unquote pitch, because if you're just talking for 10 minutes, the other person's not listening. So like, for example, one of my clients does paid advertising, and so whenever they are explaining their services and what they do, the difference in what this particular client does. Is she looks at your emails and your landing pages, not just your ads. She's looking at an entire ecosystem. And so instead of just breezing past that and going to the next thing she does, she's able to say, when you've worked with people before, have they looked at your emails and landing pages, or did they only look at your ads? And the person's able to think and say, You know what? They did it. Or maybe they say they did and we should talk about that right here, because what did they do? What were they looking at? And it allows the person, the prospect, to really understand the process you're going to take them through better than if you just talked for 10 minutes and then ask them, Do you have any questions? Does that make sense? Please never ask the either of those questions, because they're not going to give any information that's helpful. Like, how many times have you said make sense in a conversation and the person says, yeah, and they get to the end of the conversation and they ask something that's like, wow, it's very clear it did not make sense, or you would not have asked that question

Exactly, exactly. So when you're doing this pitch weaving, yeah, you know, we all have a ideal client, or hopefully have an ideal client pre qualification process, right? Do you just kind of weave that in, or what is your ideal client pre qualification process look like. And because you're talking about, you know, if it's the right fit, right, it doesn't feel like selling, how does it help you identify the perfect fit from the start?

Yeah, that's such a great question. So with, I really like to have a calendar link with questions in it, and the questions should be specific to you and specific to your audience. So whenever you identify those patterns in the clients who got the best results and the clients who weren't happy, a really good spot is in that pre qualification form, and a lot of people mess up because they ask questions that need to be asked on the sales call. It's like, No, we're just trying to ask questions to understand if this person's even a fit to discuss anything on the sales call. So for example, if you need the person to have staff, you're going to ask, how many people do you have on your team right now? And if they don't have any people on their team, you're able to reach out and say, Hey, we really need somebody who's on your team to do this. I have some other resources for you. Instead of having this really long conversation with somebody who doesn't even have what they need to be able to succeed.

Now that makes a lot of sense. Having those questions in there. It also lets them know too, like, when they're reading the questions, they're all like, oh, wow, they really do. Well, no, so they're not going to waste my time, because obviously they're asking me this question for a reason, and they just ask me three questions, and I don't have any of those things, right? Yeah, yeah,

Totally. You really should all be positioned in their best interest. So sometimes people will have, like, like, mainstream sales will have this pre qual form that's like, are you able to buy something right now that's five figures. It's like, damn. Like, it just feels like you're gonna sell me. So one of my clients, the amount of revenue is really important, because their investment level is higher. So we ask, like, what is your annual revenue? We ask because we found if you're under $100,000 the investment doesn't make sense for you right now. So that positions the question as something that's more like, I'm not like, ew, you're broke. Get away from me. It's like, there's a reason, and I have your best interest in mind.

And I think people would really respect that, and whether they were there or not there, if they are, they're like, Wow, I'm really glad she asked me that, so now I know I'm not wasting my time. And if they're at $60,000 they're like, Oh, well, it's good thing we didn't get on a on a phone. And now I really like that she asked me that, though, so as soon as I am there or I'm going to refer other people to her that I know are there, because I really like the way she asked that question, right?

Yes, exactly,

Yes. So I always like to talk about, like, what are we always like to talk about all the great stuff, but we do know that there are pitfalls, right? So what would you say are some common pitfalls that you see in the current sales strategies, right? And how does your methods specifically address those challenges?

Man, that's a hell of a question, Patty. So I have a theory that all the mainstream sales strategies that we see today were created by aggressive men who were selling to aggressive men because those were the only people buying and selling. So they liked that. They responded to that. And we have a wider diversity of buyers and sellers than ever before, and it will only continue to evolve. So a woman. For example, is not going to respond well to the aggressive masculine strategy. A guy who's not aggressive isn't going to respond well to that kind of sales strategy. Then you think about people from different socioeconomic backgrounds, they're going to respond differently to that strategy. So more importantly than ever it it's about understanding the other person and not selling them. So the only goal in a black sheep sales conversation is understanding what this person needs, and it's okay if it's not me, I'm gonna point them in the right direction if it's not me, and I'm gonna tell them when to come back or whatever. Whereas mainstream sales, the only goal is to get a yes and to kind of back somebody into a corner to say yes, there's some really nasty tactics up there. So I would say that the biggest difference is that at no point is there convincing going on in a black sheep sales conversation. If anything, it's getting curious to understand if the other person does think this is the best fit for them, and if they don't, why not? And Is that valid? And let's look at what the alternatives are, and do those make more sense for you, or not really guiding them through in the same way. I like this analogy for women a lot. Like, if you go dress shopping with a friend, she's got two dresses, she's down to right? Are you, like, really pushing the one you think is your favorite? Like, yeah, if she's like, I don't really like this one, you're like, Okay, well, what's going on? What do you need? Are you? Do you need to dance? Is there someone there that you're trying to flirt with? Is there someone there you're trying to get a promotion with? Like, what's the vibe like? You start asking questions to under better understand how she can get the dress that makes her feel freaking amazing. And you don't really care if it's if it's yours or not. So like, that same kind of intention to the sales conversation, where another one is, like, if somebody's talking to you about breaking up with their partner, you're not just like, This is what you should do. Like, no, you're asking a lot of careful questions so that you can guide this person to the right answer for them. As a salesperson, it's really like at the end of the conversation, especially with objections and stuff. It's a guiding conversation, a coaching through fear and what is the right choice for them. Conversation like, Are you this person? Are you this person? Are you the person who wants the cheapest Are you the person who wants something quality? Not that you've asked that exact question, because that's kind of insulted. But you know what I mean, like, you're able to kind of, like, just point them in the right direction based on actually understanding the hell's going on. Now

I think that makes sense. So if we were looking ahead right, what do you see happening in the sales industry in the next few years? You know, are there some skills and some qualities that you think that for future sales professionals we should be nailing down really well that are essential, right? Because, you know, things change all the time.

Yeah, it's funny, because people say that AI is going to replace sales. I really do not see someone buying something that's 2050, $100,000 from a robot, and I know that they might not know that it's a robot, but you know that that AI person is going to say something weird, because it's so nuanced when you're talking to somebody, there's no way to predict this exact person. They're a different person than they were yesterday. You don't know what mood they're in. You don't know what's happened in their lives. All that stuff is affecting how they're hearing you and responding. So I don't I am not worried about AI. I would say the main skill that I think humans as a whole need to work on is empathy. Man, sales is, is a huge part of that. A lot of people don't understand what empathy is. They think it's like compassion, which is like, oh my god, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry that happened. But does that make you want to work with somebody? No, it feels like pity, right? Or people think empathy is like relating to someone like, oh my gosh, me too. I love to go mountain biking too. I mountain bike at this mountain all. That's not empathy at all. Empathy is really understanding. Is like putting yourself in someone's shoes and understanding how it feels and seeing it through their eyes. So if there was something and getting curious, curiosity and empathy are the answer to everything, because without curiosity, you just assume you're just getting a lot of times about what somebody's saying or feeling or thinking, and a lot of times you're wrong. So you might as well ask

I think is so true. True. And I have to tell you, Alicia, just come giving us all this grace up. This was really fabulous too. And I love it because you, like you were a pattern disrupt just being on the show, right, just telling us the way it is, right, which I really love. And I love that you actually came with a gift too. Now I have to tell you, for my audience, I just love the name of the gift. I just love it immediately increase your sales without being a douche bag with these five simple steps. I mean, like, really, honestly, who doesn't want that, right? You know? So tell them a little bit about it. For those of you that are listening or watching, it's right below. Just look down below. There's a button for you to get it, but tell them what they're gonna get and why they want it. Yeah.

So this, I have a podcast called sales is not a dirty word. And so I have these short solo episodes that are, like, 10 or 15 minutes, and this guide is the episodes that are the most relevant to every single sales conversation.

No, that's really good. So Alicia, how can people get a hold of you? How can they connect with you? I know they're going to want to. What's the best way to find you? They should listen to your podcast, for sure. We'll also put that below. But what's the best way for them to connect with you?

Yeah, definitely the podcast. I am on LinkedIn the most, and I do have a book that you can pre order, black sheep sales, how to win more sales without acting like a douche bag. So I would say all those places are great,

And we will put all those links. So look below. We have all those links for you. So thank you so much, Alicia, for being here with me. I really appreciate it. You were just so generous with your knowledge, like you always are. So thank you so much for being here.

It's been such a pleasure, Patty. Thank you.

Thank you. And to my audience, thank you for being here again. I love it. I love that you show up week after week. I appreciate it so much. And if you enjoyed today's episode, and I'm sure you did, please like subscribe and review the podcast on your favorite listening platform. And if you haven't checked out our sister magazine, the marketing media Money Magazine, please Grab Your Free Copy at m3 digital mag.com, thank you so much. Have a great week. We'll see you again next week.