Caroline Brookfield - Creativity and Art & Science

This is no halos here hosted by Jen Lang and Jane Stark, the place to inspire a change in your consciousness to elevate the world. We're to heart centered business owners nourishing our inner rebels while growing our respective businesses.

No halos here is the result of bringing together an opera singer turned spiritual mentor and a marketing professional turned well being coached to meditate daily. Together, we unite physical, mental, emotional and spiritual energies into a powerful presence to lead, heal and inspire. We love exploring the shadowed edges of life, the universe and beyond through honest and thought provoking conversations. Let's dive in.

Hi, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of no halos here with Jen Lang and Jane Stark. This week, we have a really awesome, awesome guest with us, Caroline Brookfield, who is both a veterinarian and works with creativity. She's an aspiring and upcoming public speaker. And we'd love to hear more about her. So I'm going to hand it over to her to introduce herself. Thank you for joining us today. Thanks. Thanks,

Jen. And Jane, I'm so excited to see you and be here. As you said, that was pretty much in a nutshell, I was a veteran, I am a veterinarian, I've been a veterinarian for over 20 years. And I always had a creative side that of performance and improv and comedy that I love to explore. When I was a teenager, I felt like I had to choose art or science. And now I realize you don't. And I found a way to blend both to have a much more enjoyable life.

I love this Caroline and I met Oh, gosh, I can't remember now. We got our eggs scrambled? That's what we always say yes, no, it is like scrambled eggs. Funny, I think 2017. We, we both we hired a coach, not together separately, but ended up in a group coaching program together. And yeah, it was a really, really pivotal year. I know for me, I think for Carolyn as well. And that's when, I don't know, I just loved this tape that you had around how create creativity does have a role to play. More so than we've ever I think realized in corporate and business in science in our personal lives. And, you know, the fact that you were starting to uncover all of that or look at that in more depth. And then the fact that you were a practicing veterinarian just made me go tell me more. I need to understand this. So you touched a little bit on how you got there in terms of you felt like you had to choose one or the other when you were a teenager? Can you go a little bit more into your story and how you came around to realizing that you could have both? And then what how that's kind of that journey has evolved to bring you to where you are today.

Sure, yeah. So I graduated from high school in 1997, before the internet, and and so worked, you know, of course, put my head down and started working as most people do in a new job and had lot to learn. And then I just kind of felt like, I don't know, if I got bored, or I just felt like is there more to do to this. And so I would explore things like acting classes and stand up comedy in my spare time. And I also kind of hopped around from job to job because I was like, Oh, well, you know, I'm kind of bored of this. And I do something different. But it never really felt like I was truly doing everything I was meant to do. Which sounds a bit maybe not for you guys, because you're pretty Whoo. But

that's kind of the space in which we work. How do we find each other? Well, it wasn't really done doing the things I yeah, knew there was more to do.

Yeah. So it's like you can't, you know, the dots going backwards. Makes sense. So one of the jobs I took was working at a pet food company where my job was primarily educating people about nutrition in bed and veterinary conditions. And I really love public speaking and, you know, through some coaching work both with with Jane and some other groups that I was in, I realized nobody else really likes to do this. So maybe I should do that. And then you know that I then decided how am I going to position this and what am I going to talk about? So I thought I should talk to that because that's who I am. But from an analytical point, I'd already had two businesses that I started in closed, and I realized that it was the no market that could be sustainable for me if I wanted to do it as something to actually pay my mortgage and pay my bills. So then I detail exactly, well and also that's, you know, they're very credential oriented. And of course, I was like, maybe I should go get a master's in creativity. So that I can speak about creativity, you know, I have the whole imposter syndrome thing. And yeah, so eventually I remember to listen to a podcast. I think it was grant Baldwin's podcast where it was like, how do you pick what you want to speak about. And I thought it should be pretty obvious. If I want to be a public speaker, I should have this message that I am dying to get to the world. But it took us actually quite a lot of reflection to think about what that was. And when his podcast said, You should talk about the things people ask you about, it was kind of an epiphany, because people would always ask me, like, how are you a vet, and then you open a jewelry business. And then like, I took a year and a half to travel, like, people would always wonder how I just took these leaps, you know, and I realized a lot of that had to do with creativity, and creating a business and creating, you know, a journey. And so then I started getting into the research on creativity. And then that blew me away about how all of the research done peer reviewed evidence on engaging our own individual unique creativity, and the benefits both to our own well being, but as well as in a job context. Wow.

I actually have augments. Go ahead.

No, go ahead.

I don't have a question as more. So it's interesting, you say this, Caroline. Because when I was first starting my business journey, almost seven years ago now, nope, six years ago, I swear to you, I actually thought that creativity was the way to go. And I actually created a creative care, a creative care manual for people. For my audience, I probably dig it up at some very early Canva experiments, it's probably looks horrific now. But the creative, it was the creative care kit, basically. And getting into that creativity space. You know, obviously, I come from a music background. And at the same time, music can be both very science and technical and creative. It is one of those fields that merges both both hemispheres of the brain, in, but here's the key. Performance is one side of the brain. But the study of music and language is the other side of the brain. So by bringing the two together, you're actually creating stronger connections across all the hemispheres of the brain, both hemispheres, but it's not really talked about much. And I just got into all kinds of different creative ways that I would learn how to memorize my music and how to practice performing. And that's where these fields start to intersect, but the creativity piece, so many people don't understand that. We need creativity to move forward in this world. We can't solve today's problems with yesterday's solutions.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, that's 100% true. And I think what's happened is the last 100 years, we've focused on, you know, inbox zero and getting things done. And that's what's prioritized in our education system and in our jobs. But we want different results, or we don't want to be the company that figures things out, like two years after the other company. But it's such a shift to try to focus on this creative human aspect versus, you know, the stuff we have AI and robots to do all that stuff for the most part now. So we need to lean into what we're uniquely good at, which is the creativity part, but we just lost that ability to know how to create the space and time to let it come out. Because everybody is creative. It's a biological fact. It's not it's not. And I think what comes I think the challenge comes in and, you know, it's funny, john, you say that, because when I went down the creativity, my you know, the whole topic, I struggled because companies don't really want creativity, they also they want innovation, but they don't actually want creativity. So it's like they're all searching for innovation, but they don't want to do the work. Yeah, they want to hang out while they're reading Doritos on the couch right? So I think that is a struggle for me because people think of creativity as abstract and frivolous and artistic. And that yet innovation you can talk about all these strategies and design thinking and words that sound much more business and corporate. But at the end of the day, if you don't have individuals exercising their creativity alone and together, like doesn't matter what kind of strategy you have, so

so it's sort of the missing link, one of the missing links you're seeing specifically in business would you say?

Well, I think for everything like that's the problem because I can't you know, I can't there's so many benefits to creativity both in new individual and corporate level like you know, they've they've escaped me, I think it was McKinsey, that linked business performance to creativity and for for individuals who have creative employees, they have like a point six, eight Increase in innovation. So I mean, it's very much tied to both profitability and innovation. Not to mention, creative employees are half as likely to be looking for another job. Yeah. Creative creative teams have higher cohesion, higher job satisfaction, job performance. Employees who identify themselves as creative have a 30% higher salary, like it's an it's not an isolation, like, it's not like creativity is the answer. Because if you're creative at work, it's because you're in a psychologically safe environment. Like you can't be creative

and have creativity when you're not feeling Right.

Right. So I don't think it's this magic bullet in isolation. I think it intersects with, you know, resilience and psychological safety. And you're not going to be creative in a job where your your ideas are shut down, or where you're like, time is banked every minute of every day, like it's just not going to work.

So you're you're constricted or squeezed into a box, literally, a box of our robot, or what we feel like a square box would be I had this encounter, actually, when I lived in Dubai in the UAE. And I tried to apply for jobs. And my skill set didn't fit to the boxes that they had created for those specific jobs. I don't have a degree in marketing. But I did have a lot of experience in Marketing and Communications and Technology. But I didn't fit that box. I didn't have the degrees, so I wasn't even selected for it. So it's very interesting. And then of course, what's the first thing that gets cut in education programs? When there is budget cutbacks? It's usually music and art. And those creative pursuits were then fact those are the answer to, I think seeing our society for?

Well, it's interesting, too, because from a business perspective, me having a marketing background again, what's the first area that often gets cut in a company when things go down? marketing?

Interesting. Yeah.

And it also, it's interesting, sort of tying it into kind of the world that Jen and I operate in now. You know, creativity is such a big piece of, I don't like using the term but self care. And, you know, but like, it's, it's what helps our nervous system reset and calm down and takes us out of, like you say, this, this buisiness, and this structure and everything that we have going on in our lives now. You know, I mean, how many times have you know, we told clients or worked with, you know, coaches have told, told us that, you know, hey, like you need to, what can you do that's creative, that just starts to get those, that that other side of your brain working? And you know, a lot of what you just shared? I'm like, yeah, it makes so much sense yet. We just don't value it and embrace it anymore. And we all know, I mean, we see the coloring books right now, it's all about, you know, the adult coloring books, but even that, I'd be curious to know, your take on some of this stuff that's coming out, because I look at that a little bit and go, it's still very prescriptive.

Yeah, when you said about coloring books, it reminds me, we had a nanny from New Zealand, she had an early childhood education diploma, and she would not allow our kids to color. So I was like, oh, we'll do it. She's like, No, I don't kids don't color, I give them a blank sheet of paper, and some supplies they create. And so when my son got to kindergarten, and the teacher was like, well, he doesn't know how to color I'm like, well, he doesn't color we don't ask him to color in the lines. Like this is not what being a child is about. And that was a real epiphany for me. And I don't think that coloring is not creative. Like there's so many things that are creative, but it just made me laugh. It made me think about when you you said these, these books that are coming out and I think we're so stuck in a society where we have to, and I'm, you know, I'm prone to this as well, we feel like we have to reach out and pay or buy something. And creativity is not about you know, checking a box and buying a coloring book and doing it for five minutes a day. I mean, it can be that creativity is about giving your spouse self, the space and time to do those things that you enjoy, to do and to challenge yourself to try new things and to get out of this like comfort of complacency. And, you know, learn something new because creativity The reason creativity is so pleasure is so pleasant, according to the research is because of problem solving. So we like creativity because we like to solve problems. That's the mechanism by which creativity makes us happy. And tons of research linking both creativity and higher positive effect and well being. There's research in nurses and caregivers of terminal patients and doctors and employees. And more recently, there's a study that actually shows that creativity itself is a causal effect for positive effect the next day, so if you do something creative today, you'll actually be happier tomorrow. And when you're happier, you won't want to do more creative stuff. So it's like this infinity donut, I call it

I love it. The Infinity donut Creativity.

Exactly. It's delicious.

It's delicious every bite. In fact, everybody's better the next day. Yes, exactly.

It's just a new donut that appears every day the Infinity donut, I love it

to be drawn,

they have you drawn the and fit tried to draw the Infinity donut before I use clipart to represent the Infinity doing that one's still creative.

It is it is still creative, I'd love to touch on something you shared before we started recording. And we were talking about this concept of creativity and how it's rooted in uncertainty and ambiguity. And you gave us a really great definition, we're not going to hold you to giving us the exact wording. But I'd love for you to unpack that a little bit more, because I thought that was really interesting. And the way you define ambiguity, or I don't know if it's you or the the proper definition of ambiguity and certainty, and also how uncertainty plays into all of this.

Yeah, I think that was one of the rabbit holes, I went down with this dimension of tolerance of ambiguity, which is what the researchers call it. And it's uh, I don't know, if it would be like, it's, it's one out, it's not, it's kind of linked to the Big Five personality traits, like open openness of experience. And for the terminology, which confused me at the beginning, ambiguity is like the state or of the world, or the condition that you are in an uncertainty is the kind of emotional response it creates in us. And when we, when we step into a creative, you know, endeavor, whether it's choosing our outfit for the day, or drawing some spices in a meal, or, you know, creating composing a song, it's always stepping into uncertainty. So it takes curiosity, it takes humility, to know that you don't know how it's going to turn out, even if you have an idea of how it's going to turn out. You don't know really until things happen. You might spill the paint, or maybe you burn the chicken or whatever. And so this I kind of, you know, I know you're a skier j nanogenerators gear at all. So you know, the feeling when you're at the top of a run, and you're like, Oh, it's maybe a bit tough. And then there's a point where you push off and then there's like this tipping point where you're like, there's no return. Yeah, I know that point. Yeah, yes. So I feel like it's that. And I feel like every time you step into something creative, it's that same feeling. And the more you do that, the more confident you become in facing that uncertainty and other parts of your life. And realize that failing is not the end of the world, and nobody actually really cares about you that much, anyway.

Oh, that's true. Key Point. Key Point, right, a

special snowflake.

just brush it off. Nobody cares.

I gotta use that every time. I'm feeling like anxious. Like, nobody cares about me. What am I even right? Like, it's pretty true. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Go ahead. Are you do stand up? No finish.

I was just gonna say like, when did you stand up? I'm always like, you know, so worried. Of course, you know, you're like, well, people are gonna, and I'm like, these people are not going to think even if I bomb they're not even going to think twice about me. By the time they leave this club. Like it's all

a great attitude. So Carolyn is also a stand up comedian. We haven't touched on that, but you just brought it up.

So yes, I did. Yes. Well, I try. I haven't done it much lately with COVID. But

yeah, yeah. So and it makes me think about like, anxiety. And now like, I just kind of had this lightbulb Not that I didn't realize it, but I'm like, wow, magian like, and I'm sure it is used, but like how creativity can be used because anxiety is so rooted in that, right? It's rooted in the fear, like it's the not knowing and we need to then control the outcome and control everything. So and I know obviously, play therapy and whatnot, helps. You know, there's lots of different tools, I'm sure, but that link just came from me and thinking about that and how I wonder I don't know if you've looked into this Carolina at all, but like, you know, the link between the fact that we have lost kind of the ability to be creative and just allow that stuff with the rise and increase in things like anxiety.

Yeah, I mean, that's that's so complicated. But I mean, there are some studies specifically on everyday creativity. There's one with nurses and nursing students that comes to mind where they found that if they did something an everyday create, like making a meal or something it did allow them to bounce back and help build resilience. So I feel like I don't know specific to anxiety, but I guess you know, the CounterPoint. If you're going building resilience. Hopefully, you would assume that decreasing,

kind of, like you said earlier, not not in isolation, but just one of the pieces. Right?

Exactly. And I think that you're right. I think having that ability to be okay with the unknown is, we can't do that now. I mean, you've got phones, but exactly, and how many people sit and don't look at their phones and just look out the window, you know, and that's a key part of creativity is being okay to just sit. There was a study, which I can't believe was recent, where people would rather give themselves electric shocks, then sit and be alone with our own thoughts. Really? No, a self administered electric shocks when they were bored, because it was just too boring.

Oh, my God, is really sad. Really sad.

Yeah. So like, we just don't have this ability to be okay with the unknown. And I think that is linked to the difficulty people have in creativity, both this feeling that we have to fill our brains, you know, with external stimulus all the time, but also this pressure to be like doing something all the time. And like, you know, we talk I talk about daydreaming so I have a book coming out in the fall, hopefully, and

yeah, and that's, that's pretty soon, that's now

Yes, I know. Yes. Pretty soon. Yeah, exactly. So you know me? I mean, I'll figure it out, right? Yeah, no, I'm like, it's fine. I'm very high in tolerance of ambiguity, by the way. And it is also personality things. Some people are just naturally more tolerant to ambiguity than others, you can improve your it's interesting. So there's a study by a group at a Queensland, Australia who learned about ambiguity in the workplace and how increasing your tolerance of ambiguity is helpful in so many domains. And they've done a lot of research on physicians and tolerance of ambiguity as well. And so physicians with a high tolerance of ambiguity, usually have better mental health and they usually are okay without knowing all the answers. So the the converse of that is if you have a high tolerance of ambiguity, and I can be prone to this as a vet as well, you're okay with not knowing the unknown. So sometimes you jump in without having all the information and maybe don't make the best choices? Because you're like, I'm sure it'll be fine. I'll just jump in and out. Right, which is not necessarily what you want from your doctor either. So

you'll be fine.

Yeah. Yeah. So so I kind of went on a bit of a tangent there. I don't know if that answered your question.

Yeah, no, I did. I just Yeah, I thought it was really interesting to think about certainty as, like you say, the emotion and ambiguity as the state or I don't know exactly what the term is. But yeah. And

environment, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing I was gonna say, which I wanted to mention about uncertainty is that sometimes it's, it's unconscious. So there's been some studies, I won't go into detail unless you want me to. But there's studies where they have shown people ambiguous conditions, and they haven't consciously recognize it's just like playing cards that were different. And the people who are exposed to the playing cards that look different or ambiguous, we're actually more stuck on their status quo position. So when we're feeling uncertain, we are pushed to making a decision. And the decision is almost always the decision that's worked for us in the past. Because on an evolutionary scale, like if you're a mouse and you want the cheese, you're not going to run straight through the middle of the floor and stop and look around, right, you're going to do the thing that mouse's mice have done for centuries. And so that's also a challenge with uncertainty is that we're pushed towards doing these status quo solutions that won't even work yet, you know, tomorrow, let alone in a month or six weeks or something.

That's interesting.

So would you say that is leaning on the realm of epigenetically based decision making where we've done it for so long through multiple generations, and that it's just become part of our DNA makeup, or genetic neural makeup? that we may

be? I don't know if we'll be epigenetic. I don't know what it would be. If it's like what our instincts would be. I mean, epigenetics would make sense, but I don't know the mechanism honestly, like, but yeah, that would make sense.

Well, you could make sense because I was I had a conversation with a client yesterday, sometime this week. And basically, it's like we want to make we want to make decisions based on past experience. But the aspect of curiosity is, is an AI to tie in with the uncertain with the certainty versus uncertainty, ambiguity, pieces. It's like if we always made decisions based on past experience, we would wouldn't necessarily get further ahead because there wouldn't be that taking that leap or taking that risk or being curious around. What if I tried this instead? It's like how did how did we get such a variety of amazing food and cuisines around the world? It's because and the most of the most random things like when I'm thinking of the like the coffee beans that have passed through the innards of that particular leaner, I was like, how did someone come to that conclusion that those coffee beans tasted better than the ones that? I don't want to know. But that's being curious. And that's an extremely weird example. But putting different food combinations together. Yeah. And that's another aspect of creativity. Where really, I think the creative the creative spark is linked to the Curiosity component in our human makeup in our human DNA. That's in our human.

Yeah, well, I'm that's the crux right is how do you become curious when you're feeling uncertain? And that is where we're not it's not a natural state. And some of those things we get curious when we have constraints. Sometimes the constraints are good for creatures, so maybe with the lemur, poor beans, that like they were no other beans, right? Like maybe they have to, or like the kid went out to get beans and didn't want to walk far about a pile of linear poo and was like with, so you should be fine. Yeah, and actually, it's funny you say that so pure. So my acronym is dance, which is the five habits you can do and only a few minutes a day to engage your, your own creativity. And the C is for curiosity. So you know, it is it is. And it takes a lot of humility to be curious, though, like you don't get many, you know, arrogant people who think they know all the answers being curious. Because to be curious, you have to be okay to not know what the answer is.

It's true. Love you.

I would love to hear about that acronym, would you? Are you able to share?

Yeah, for sure stands for? Yes. So D is for Daydream, which we do not do let's that's how JK Rowling came up with her whole Harry Potter series was she got stuck on a train and had no smartphone or Rubik's Cube so and then A is for ambiguity. So being able to face ambiguity, with confidence, the N is for novelty. So Jane, you and I know Kelsey and her book success hangover, and she talks a lot about stopping new ingredients. And it's that same idea that if you want new ideas, and you want to create something different, you need to give yourself new experiences to do that. And that's where diversity inclusion is so important. That's where you know learning new skills is important trying new things, stepping outside your comfort zone for novelty. So and then see for curiosity, and then me is a little awkward, but he is for edit later. Okay.

And what does that mean? Well, what

that means is when you're creating there's two types of thought there's like divergent creativity and convergent creativity. divergent is the like, how could like, how might we, you know, solve lever poo? Coffee Beans, so lots of different answers. And a convergent, we'll be choosing the right answer. So like, Okay, we've got three lemurs that we can test and like, how do we choose the one. And the problem is people do both of those things together. So they will think of an idea but immediately edit it before they articulated or before they've given themselves a chance to explore the idea. So one of the original creativity researchers called George land, called it the gas and the brake. So the divergent is like the gas taking you anywhere you want to go. And the conversation is like the break and in my words to stop you from hitting the girl guide in the crosswalk. So that's both important, right? But if you do them both together, it's not pretty.

Wow, okay. And so do you. Okay. I have two questions running through my head at the same time happens to me. You said something earlier about how do we foster or find our curiosity when we're in a state of uncertainty? I'm curious to know if you have any tips or direction for our listeners, and around that, like how do you because I can see how those two things you know how uncertainty can really stifle curiosity. And it just seems like so relevant even right now to the times that we're in in the world. I mean, we are surrounded right by ambiguity and uncertainty right now in multiple ways. And curiosity is something that I talk a lot with my clients about as well. So yeah, that was a long way I guess of my question is, what are your tips on on how to how to cultivate that?

Yeah, well, I have some thoughts on it, but then I'd like to turn it you know, turn around on you and get your thoughts on it. Because this is both of your wheelhouse is Jane and Jen. So what's interesting is the work that Karen Fewster has done in Australia that I've mentioned, she talks about mindfulness as being one of the keys to developing your tolerance of ambiguity. If you look at research mindfulness, the traditional like focus meditation, mindfulness is inversely correlated with creativity, because you're focusing on this present moment, whereas creativity and divergent thinking is like all of the storylines that could be happening in multiple story universes. So while it's inversely inversely proportional to creativity, so if you have, if you're meditating or mindful, it's not really great for a creative state, it actually gives that space so that you can pause and be in that moment and be able to notice all the things around you. And then it opens up the space for creativity, and curiosity. So I think the key if like you're saying is how do you become curious? and uncertainty is to learn to be comfortable in uncertainty? And how are you comfortable in uncertainty, you have to be in the exact present moment, because if you're too far ahead, you're you get caught up in this loop of trying to find the answer. So so I'll turn up with that theory. I'll turn that back on you. Because I know that you both deal a lot with meditation and mindfulness. So

Jen, do you want to? Sure, first,

so we, for those listeners who may not have heard some of our earlier episodes, this whole podcast started out of Dana and I are agreeing, and basically deciding in the moment to meditate together at 7am, every morning, around the time, the pandemic really started taking off around the world was about March 2020. And we just made this commitment to ourselves to show up for ourselves first at 7am each morning and meditate. And then sometimes it grew into further conversations. And sometimes these conversations were so good, and so rich, and so deep, were like, Oh, we should bring these to the world. So then we had a couple of public sort of zoom meditation, conversation pieces. And then it just led down this rabbit hole of worship, search, record these conversations, oh, we should start to share these more widely. And all of a sudden, we were like, let's do a podcast. So this is, I guess, one moment, one beautiful example of how sitting together and sometimes are met in our meditations varied, sometimes they were silent. Sometimes it was some energy work. Sometimes it was simply listening to an audio track together, separately, you know, in separate locations. But it's something

that guided us guided them, Jen really is gifted at tapping in and being able to just guide these beautiful garden divisions, and then we started collaborating on that.

And then it just kind of grew from there. And I think that's a beautiful example of sitting in that present moment of what is and allowing the possibilities to come forth. And then I think allowing the creativity almost to be that river that flows and cuts through the landscape and helps to develop the landscape. So the creativity flow, like the river and then started to develop the landscape of where we find ourselves today.

Yeah, and I love that because that's a that's a total example of a creative process. And had you sat down and said, Okay, we're going to do a podcast today, or we're going to plan a podcast, it probably would not have had the richness or the depth of experience that you allowed it to, because you just took a step at a time, right, as opposed to like, having a rigid plan and sticking to it.

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I guess for me, to answer that question, what what you said that really resonated with me is this idea of, and I say this a lot is getting comfortable in the uncomfortable. And it's, it's one thing to say that it's not an it can be easy. It can be easy, but it also is not simple, I guess is you know, it's, it takes practice. And I think that's one of the biggest things that shifted for me, though, over these past few years, especially as I've gone, you know, more into doing my own personal healing work. And my journey is, I'm much more comfortable in the uncomfortable now. And that has allowed for my creativity to open and curiosity. I really, if I look back, I think my curiosity was really shut down because I wasn't I was, I was contracted and I was in this place of always feeling like I needed to know kind of like what you said about being in the present moment. Because I often was in that okay, well, what's coming next, what's coming next? Where do I want to be? What's that going to look like? How am I going to like manage all of this and so I couldn't even I didn't even have the space to be curious. And now that's the space that I play in all the time i've i've cultivated my ability to ask Questions. And I think you know, and I think through my coaching training as well, that really helped get me into that space. And as I've been, you know, just cultivating my own practice, that's a lot of what I do it like everything I do in a coaching session with a client is essentially using curiosity. So they might, we might talk about something that's come up, and I'm usually just asking them questions. I'm getting curious, why do you, you know, how do you feel when that comes up? Why do you think you feel that way? Do you think do you believe that belief is that you know, is that actually true? And, like, that's how our sessions go. And it's amazing. What happens when you can start to interact and engage with somebody like that, because all of a sudden, it, it's almost like a pattern interrupt it has to, it takes them out of that mind constantly wanting to be at the next step, or constantly wanting to know what the linear answer is, and helps them to kind of go through, oh, I gotta jump over here and answer this question. And it stops us and makes us think like, Oh, yeah, okay, why am I you know, feeling that way? So, yeah, I mean, I guess, it is definitely, that practice of starting to let uncertainty be okay. And I guess some of us are more, either born with it. Some of us a lot of it, you know, we won't go into that path. But like, you know, I know, a lot of it would be, depending on your upbringing and childhood and all the different things. But yeah, it's, it's fascinating, that element of it to me for sure. And I mean, I even Sorry, go ahead. No, go ahead. I was just gonna say it's interesting. I remember to go back to Kelsey, and a couple of the retreats we went on, and Kelsey was fabulous at bringing in creativity into the retreats. Right. And that was, you know, that was not the beginning of my journey, but definitely earlier on. And so it's funny to look back, and there was a few things that we had to do that I just remember feeling so rigid, like, oh, how do I do this? Right?

Yeah. And how do I do this? Right? I know, that was something that I learned very much working together with you and and the group we were with is like, I have this, I think it's my scientific, I just like to be right, like, what would be the right way to do it? And Kelsey is the opposite. Like, there's no right. You know, it's just like, she's very, she's very different. And I think that that certainly was very influential for me as well. You know, sometimes I look back and I think, oh, like, I don't, I don't recognize the influence until I sit and less look at it. And I'm like, Oh, no, that really influenced me, but you don't really notice it so much. Because it just seems like that river that's created organically. But there's so many things that if we open ourselves up to being open to those experiences that will help take us on a path that we don't know where we're gonna go, right.

Totally, yeah, the other the other thing that I use a lot, and that I've kind of used as a mantra, and my own life now is detached from the outcome. And learning that when I can emotionally, detach myself from whatever the outcome is that I'm seeking, it doesn't mean that I don't care whether or not that outcome is achieved. But that my value my identity, my whatever, the meaning that I apply is not wrapped up in that outcome happening. And that has also been extremely helpful for me around that, right. And that's, and then I feel like in that there's, there is room for creativity, there is room for multiple different ways for things to happen. Sorry, dog scratching at my door to get out here. There is, you know, it does leave room and it reminds me, one of my coaches once told me, she put it this way, she's like, you know, if you think of a goal that you want, and you're here, and it's over here, there is not one way to get to that goal. And I think that's again, what you were saying earlier, even around, you know, in school, in business, and just in life, we're taught that kind of, here's the way you do things. And here's the path, you get to things you need to color in the lines that here's the answer. Yeah, right. And when in reality, there's infinite possibilities for how something can come to fruition. If you can be in that space and allow it to happen.

I'll pop in, I'll pop in and give some musical contexts around this because then I was training as a singer, Igor. So you can imagine that in classical music, especially there's many, many different artists repeating these works over and over again. And so you have the structure and the framework of the music and what the composer has put on the page. But it's up to the artist and the performer to interpret what those black notes and dots and lines mean in a human context. And it's if you've given Music to a machine, it's going to play all those outs exactly right and exactly in time, because those are the algorithms and the parameters around which it's been set up to operate. But if you, you can hear a piece of music and recognize it as the same, maybe the same song performed by six different artists. And you might like them for all very different reasons or dislike one or two. You might like not like this one singer's voice, but you love how this other singer interpreted this particular part or phrase. And so there is play within that structure. And I think that's also where music is such a beautiful place for creativity because you have that lien and you have that flow within the structure of the music. You know, one of the was at another podcast coach, I know her the name of her company is organized sound, which is again, a really creative name for something that is organized sound, this podcast is aspects of organized sound. It's technically notes, our voices, our sounds, yeah, fed into a system. And you've you've got, you know, enough training are the right errors or the right propensity, you can hear the notes, I hear music and everything. I hear music and cars driving down the street, I heard music and lado y or Guang, I hear music and somebody's hammering, I can hear the note. But not everybody. That's an aspect of creativity that not everyone has access to, but can if they want to, there has to be that desire to want to dive into that, too.

Yeah, and what you're touching on Jen, a little bit is about creativity is not always just coming up with something new. And like kindergarteners are very creative. But they can't come up with like a new way to make coffee right from if they don't know anything about it. So creativity involves like a number of domains, but you need to have that executive, like what you're saying the experience and the knowledge of the music, like I can't compose a piece of music. Like maybe I could wouldn't be very good. But you need to, or it's like, I would say, example of a sculptor, right. Like, I don't know how hard to hit the chisel on the marble, like I couldn't sculpt anything. So there is an aspect of you need to have experience and knowledge in that domain. But as well as being able to have that beginner mind and balance that to look at things in a new way. So you're not so linear or focused on the same way all the time. So kind of goes to your music example, like being flexible within a within a framework that, you know, takes a lot of experience in the life a life of practice to get good at. Yeah.

Fascinating. Well, we could talk about this for ages, I was just thinking that would be a part two at some point. Do you have?

Do you have favorite ways to be creative? Or is that to have it in the box? Question? Hello, how do you think it's your creativity? Yeah, for you personally in your life? How does creativity show up?

Well, sometimes it has to be intentional. So I artificially so like I'll bucket open mic. And that means I have to practice or do some writing for my comedy. I think a lot of it is just jumping in. And I always have I recognize I think for, for me a lot of it's recognizing the process. So whether that's for creativity, or for anything that takes me out of my comfort zone, I recognize that I immediately want to do it. And then I have second thoughts. And I think oh, I'm too busy. I shouldn't do it. And then I think No, no, I'll do it. I'll feel good after and then I'm like, oh, maybe I'm getting sick. So I have this like predictable process. So I think knowing that it's like no, no, like, if I'm going to do like an open mic. I'll be like, Oh, I shouldn't go on too busy. I think No, no, this is just this is what happens before you are ready to go to your open mics. So just, this is just the thing you do. So I think knowing my process of resistance. There's a fantastic book on resistance called the War of Art by Steven, we

feel it's such a great book. Yeah.

Such an easy to read that again, actually having

to. And it's all about this resistance. So I think that for me knowing my resistance and naming it. And I guess it's about being mindful as well. And just sitting in the moment of like, nothing bad is happening. Like, there's really no reason for me not to do this. And I think for me, because I am not an artistic person. My creativity is more about like, what's the worst is going to happen. You know, like if I try this new recipe, or if I you know, take a class, and actually it kind of made me think of when you were talking Jane earlier about, you know, feeling like you had to be good at everything and like controlling the outcome. We'll get better at things that we do all the time. And that includes failing so If you if you do something creative and fail, it's actually quite hilarious. Like I took a painting online thing during COVID and actually was very proud of my, I can't show you because I'm at an Airbnb. But I was very proud of my lighthouse, I painted. I didn't think I could paint a picture like that as followed along with the video, but it was like leaning. It was a little bit like falling into the ocean. But it was hilarious. I was like, No, but like, like you said, there's no worth attached to this is just a painting. And I think the more you do that, and a creative practice can help you do that with no, with no consequences, really.

And it doesn't mean anything about you know,

then you get good at just like, look how much I failed how hard it makes you braver and stronger to do it the next time and you do realize that things you thought were a big deal really aren't?

Yeah, yeah, it was it. I think it was been before we were sort of recording as well, we were talking and you made you said something it made me laugh about, you know, no one else really cares. like no one's really, truly paying attention, right? It's like us thinking that I mean, that's such a common thing. But yeah, so it doesn't mean anything about you. But it's a hard one to detangle from for sure as well.

Sorry, no, go ahead. So it just made me think of what Jen, instead of asking about the epigenetics and it goes back to this survival mechanism that we need to fit in, we need to be part of the tribe, or we would get kicked out and die from starvation or predation. And it's not like that anymore. In fact, it's the people who can get past that outdated operating system that have the courage to stand out are the ones that are getting noticed, and they're the ones that are, you know, leaders, and, you know, being helping the glue of a team stick together to try to move forward, despite not knowing all the answers.

Yeah, I think that's a great sort of concept to round out this conversation around, you know, creativity is not about knowing all the answers. Creativity is basically letting it run free. What are the possibilities? Let it go. Let that aspect go.

I agree. So before we wrap up, I just had a couple of sort of more, I don't know logistical, not quite logistic, not quite the right word. But questions for you, Caroline, in terms of your public speaking. Okay, what can you just share with our audience a little bit more about that, what kind of speaking engagements you do and where people can find you?

Yeah, so I mean, public speaking is done as it's helped combine my art and science together. So I love to perform. But I also love to make things that are helpful to people more understandable and can be hard. So what I love to do is come into an audience of people who are feeling maybe a bit stuck, or they are looking for more creativity in their organization or their life, or just, they feel like, you know, a lot of people kind of and this comes from myself included, you know, you do a job for 10 1520 years, and you just think like, I thought it would be better, like why isn't it better. And I think creativity is a big part of that. So I love to share easy ways for people to engage with their own creativity, help them realize that everybody is creative. And it doesn't take very long to exercise your creativity. But you can have immense benefits both to yourself personally as well as to the organizations you work with. So I work with small and large organizations. Sometimes I'll do like creative team building. So we do like interactive exercises like with some improv and creativity focused games to help loosen those inhibitions about worry about fear of judgment and that editing yourself before you speak idea. So I'm pretty creative and how I'm kind of up for anything. You can find me probably the easiest way would be on my website at Caroline Brookfield calm and with the hopeful launch of my book in December, I'm also doing weekly interviews with people who are in non creative fields, but talking about how they use their own creativity to make their life better at home or work. And I'm doing your weekly dare as well which you guys could do so every week I give a creative dare so I think last week was go into your favorite coffee shop and tell your brain to pick something for you and not know what the answer is because September is ambiguity.

Ah All right. I well done we're gonna take her up on that as we as we're

Yes. And where should be is are you on social was do you do anything like on social media? Where should we take you?

Yeah, how do we get the data is how do you how do you participate? There's

Yeah, so that there's are on my YouTube channel, which I don't know what the link is, but I could get it, put it in the show, put it in the show notes. We'll put everything and then also on LinkedIn, Where I do the live interviews every week on Wednesdays at 1030 Mountain so it'll be 930 I guess Pacific Pacific Yeah, yeah. And the YouTube will have all the dares as well and then I also have a newsletter you can sign up for and you'll get the weekly dare set out that way. And mainly I'm on Instagram at artful science and on LinkedIn with my name Caroline Brookfield, and then I'm also on Facebook and Twitter, but I call it a gym membership. I have been around ever

I love it. I mean yeah, Jen and I can relate to that. Totally. Yeah. Wonderful. It's like I get in the rhythm and I go for a while and then oh sorry guys. Yeah, yeah. disappeared for a while. Oh, thank you so much, Carolyn. This was really fun. Are you up for a really quick little round of some rapid fire questions?

Sure. I've enjoyed this so much you guys it's such a great interview.

Yeah, that's true.

Yeah, I'm here I'm

learning about more inclusive language and probably shouldn't see you guys all y'all

all y'all I Love it. Love it all y'all y'all

okay. Okay, first question. How does your inner rebel express itself?

It does whatever it wants. Alright, how does it express itself? Well the one thing that comes to mind is I ignore my calendar if my calendar

ah there you go that's

it. That's definitely it.

Yeah. Normal calendar ignore

my calendar

you put you put everything in it and then just totally ignore it. Or is there nothing

people said put it's in your calendar it will happen doesn't happen. Like right write a blog post I'm like screw you calendar. I don't feel like writing a blog post right now. Oh, I like to do

I totally do that.

I like it it's like she's owning it I own it I love it it's just like yeah No, I just ignore you I flat out ignore you.

Yeah fantastic awesome.

text or talk

depends a talk I get that but I would resist it.

theme here Yes. Planes trains or automobiles

train I don't know why

you go to what do you fear is hiding in the dark

my children that was what

go to bed good fiction or nonfiction?

I could never I have to like think about those to get them straight I would say fiction

but you study through a lot of

nonfiction so I read a lot of nonfiction. Yeah. But I think fiction there's something very beautiful about fiction. It's easy to get trap of reading. nonfiction, they should be guilty. Or not true. nonfiction. Not true.

It's the other way around. Interesting. Yeah, that might be something I take away from this as I need to start reading more fiction.

I used to read it. As it helps.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. noted, because I have definitely gone down the rabbit hole of the non fiction. Part personal growth self help. Release. Awesome. Shall we wrap it there?

It's rabbit. That's a good, that's a good place to wrap. Thank you so much. Yeah. Thanks, Caroline. It's just super fun.

I enjoyed it. Thank you so much. Awesome. All right, awesome.

rest of your day. Thank you listeners for tuning in. And you will find all the information about how to connect with Caroline in the show notes and we'll probably share some things out in our social media channels as well. Thanks again. Have a great day everybody. Bye. Thanks for joining us for these conscious combos. If you're ready to dive deeper head on over to we are Jen and jane.com to continue the conversation.