Sign up to get updates from us
In this episode Jen + Jane discuss the Mental Load that women carry, often by choice, when it comes to the home, minding family, and letting loved ones fail. This involves ‘letting go’. But it’s often not as simple as that. Listen in as they look at the many different facets and implications of letting loved ones own their journeys, letting go of others' (and their own) expectations, and how or where the patterns first showed up. Enjoy!
Additional Resources/Reading:
● https://www.amazon.ca/Mental-Load-Feminist-Comic/dp/1609809181
Questions for further guidance:
● What would it take for you to ‘let go’ of the outcome, or of how you think things ‘should’ be?
This is no halos here hosted by Jen Lang and Jane
Jen Lang:Stark, the place to inspire a change in your consciousness to
Jen Lang:elevate the world. We're to heart centered business owners
Jen Lang:nourishing our inner rebels while growing our respective
Jen Lang:businesses.
Jane Stark:No halos here is the result of bringing together an
Jane Stark:opera singer turned spiritual mentor and a marketing
Jane Stark:professional turned while being coached to meditate daily.
Jane Stark:Together, we unite physical, mental, emotional and spiritual
Jane Stark:energies into a powerful presence to lead, heal and
Jane Stark:inspire. We love exploring the shadowed edges of life, the
Jane Stark:universe and beyond through honest and thought provoking
Jane Stark:conversations. Let's dive in.
Jen Lang:Hi, again, and welcome back to another episode of no
Jen Lang:halos here with Jen Ling and Jane Stark. Oh, my goodness,
Jen Lang:wait to hear what we have to talk about today. We just did a
Jen Lang:little preamble chat. We're like, Ah, we're fired up. We're
Jen Lang:fired up. So yes, it is like bless the mess and all the shit
Jen Lang:in between.
Jane Stark:Yes, bless the mess. But yeah, so today we're talking
Jane Stark:about letting it go. Blessing the mess, letting the mess be.
Jane Stark:And I think there's a couple of angles with this, though, like
Jane Stark:that. We want to take this. So you're gonna have to stick with
Jane Stark:us follow along? Because one of them is on the heels of our
Jane Stark:podcast last week about self acceptance. Yep. And absolutely,
Jane Stark:where can we sort of come into a place of more acceptance and
Jane Stark:allowing things to be? And we can talk about the more. I don't
Jane Stark:know, 3d human worlds, like, you know, letting your house be a
Jane Stark:bit messy. Like having your daughter's music teacher over
Jane Stark:when you're recording a podcast. I can hear the music in the
Jane Stark:background. That's just my life.
Jen Lang:I can't hear. Okay, good.
Jane Stark:So there's that aspect of it. And then there is
Jane Stark:the more psychological I don't know what to call it, but like,
Jane Stark:emotional piece of like, allowing people to be in their
Jane Stark:own process and their own maybe emotional mess without jumping
Jane Stark:in and trying to fix it and save the world
Jen Lang:and save the day. Right? Just because it makes you
Jen Lang:feel better to do that.
Jane Stark:Yeah. So one of the things that spurred this
Jane Stark:conversation on was a post that I came across a while ago on
Jane Stark:LinkedIn, by I don't actually know her last name a woman, she
Jane Stark:goes by AMA on the big bad interwebs. And I believe I don't
Jane Stark:actually, I feel like she might be European. And this is
Jane Stark:translated into English. But anyways, she the link in the
Jane Stark:show notes, yeah, we put a link to I have the link. And she
Jane Stark:wrote a book, it's actually a book called The mental load a
Jane Stark:feminist comic. And it's posted on a blog as well. So we'll link
Jane Stark:to it. But she really talks about and impacts the mental
Jane Stark:load, which for women, and we know, this has been talked about
Jane Stark:a lot. So we're not going to go like too too far into that. But
Jane Stark:then on her blog, she does these little short snippets, short
Jane Stark:blog posts, and, and comics. And she talks here about how she was
Jane Stark:invited to another conference about the mental load, and what
Jane Stark:it looks like to let go and just surrender. And it was targeted
Jane Stark:at women. And she brought up the point and she was like, when are
Jane Stark:we going to have a conference to targeted at men helping to
Jane Stark:support them about how to step up and take your part in the
Jane Stark:household. And it just, it just is it got me going like I was
Jane Stark:like, This is so true. And she talks about and she was a bit
Jane Stark:like she just goes a bit, you know, to make the point, but
Jane Stark:like she's like, you know, the responsibility always relying on
Jane Stark:women to change to shift to accommodate, you know, women are
Jane Stark:too demanding. Women are too controlling, you know, and then
Jane Stark:she talks she says, So what happens if we let go? And like
Jane Stark:when and if somebody else then he or she says if a man but
Jane Stark:let's just say the partner or somebody else? What if you let
Jane Stark:go and nobody takes over? What happens? The dishes rot in the
Jane Stark:sink. The kids Jesus example, the kids don't get their
Jane Stark:vaccines, the kids, you know, like, kind of just two
Jen Lang:kids medical appointments or dental
Jen Lang:appointments. Yeah. So
Jane Stark:yeah, so that kind of got us really fired up. And
Jane Stark:sort of this conversation about what does it look like to let go
Jane Stark:a little bit and I do think there's, I think there's a
Jane Stark:balance because speaking personally, I definitely have
Jane Stark:had to let go and surrender a lot of things over the last well
Jane Stark:basically since becoming a mother. And there is power in it
Jane Stark:for sure. Like I am done. Definitely, because I think I
Jane Stark:was I was, we got to look at why we're holding on. So I was
Jane Stark:trying to maintain control in my life by having things look a
Jane Stark:certain way. But it's because, again, more of an internal
Jane Stark:thing. I don't have control over what's happening. Like, there's
Jane Stark:all these aspects of my life that I didn't have control over.
Jane Stark:So if I have control here, then it makes me feel okay. And I
Jane Stark:think I'm okay.
Jen Lang:Yes. And that can show up in different opposite
Jen Lang:different parts of your life. So that might show up in how you
Jen Lang:dress or how or how you eat. Yeah, but also how you keep your
Jen Lang:house. And so
Jane Stark:how you parent, how you pay, what else what to do,
Jane Stark:how you run through your day from start to finish all of it.
Jane Stark:And so
Jen Lang:yeah, it doesn't, I'm gonna say like, obviously, the
Jen Lang:easy target is parents, but it doesn't just show up in families
Jen Lang:with children, it could show up in couples within larger family,
Jen Lang:familial relationships, and that, that just partners part
Jen Lang:like, yep, just partners. Yeah, like, Kirk, I don't have kids.
Jen Lang:But there's different. I'd say that Kirk and I have a pretty,
Jen Lang:I'm gonna say fairly even division of labor and chores in
Jen Lang:the house, although I am definitely the record keeper. In
Jen Lang:terms of like, the dealings like doing the medical claims, and
Jen Lang:those logins and the filing of the paperwork and the life
Jen Lang:things, that which is, again, a different part of the mental
Jen Lang:load, which isn't always acknowledged. And I almost like
Jen Lang:sometimes I have to point it out and be like, the dining room
Jen Lang:table is messy with paperwork, because I'm taking care of our
Jen Lang:filing. It's nothing to do with, like, I'm not trying to thwart
Jen Lang:you or make you feel like this place is cluttered. It's it's
Jen Lang:something to do with, you know, our life together.
Jane Stark:Right. Yeah. And I mean, I think so it can show up
Jane Stark:like that, for sure. It also can show up just in controlling
Jane Stark:behaviors, right? Like, again, in relationship, right, where
Jane Stark:it's like, don't do it this way. Do it that way, or don't do it.
Jane Stark:So there's many different ways that it shows up. In my
Jane Stark:experience for me, it was definitely I had to look at
Jane Stark:okay, why am I kind of trying to control my external world so
Jane Stark:tightly? Because I felt like my internal world or like, there
Jane Stark:was all these things. So, you know, for a while there, like it
Jane Stark:was my health and it was my kids. It was my discomfort with
Jane Stark:my husband's career and his travel. Everybody's been really
Jane Stark:loud in my house right now.
Jen Lang:Oh, real life, you know, right. This is like
Jen Lang:literally the perfect example of like, letting letting the mess
Jen Lang:be the recording, and family labeling.
Jane Stark:And that is something I think COVID has
Jane Stark:actually really helped us with, it's become it's helped to
Jane Stark:normalize that. Oh, yeah. The cat just crawled over my
Jane Stark:computer. My keyboard. Oh, yep. My kid just opened the door. And
Jane Stark:you're in the middle of a meeting. Right. Like, that is
Jane Stark:one thing. I will say that I'm so grateful that COVID actually
Jane Stark:really did help us just become more authentic, like, yeah, that
Jane Stark:these are our lives. And this is how this is behind the scenes
Jane Stark:and what really goes on. But I think today in terms of the,
Jane Stark:like, letting the mess be. We wanted to also get into the I
Jane Stark:don't know the side of it, where? How, I just think I
Jane Stark:noticed. Yeah, go ahead.
Jen Lang:I was gonna say like, letting the mess be is instead
Jen Lang:of feeling like women have to fix something. Yeah, it's
Jen Lang:letting our loved ones fuckup. It's letting our loved ones mess
Jen Lang:up. And like,
Jane Stark:not always trying to change it, correct it, fix it,
Jane Stark:tell them how to navigate it. Exactly. And I say this because
Jane Stark:I used to be the queen of that. Right? Like, and that's again,
Jane Stark:that space of trying to control everything, right? Where, but
Jane Stark:when we can't allow people to feel the natural consequences of
Jane Stark:their actions, or inaction or inaction. How do you how do we
Jane Stark:ever expect change to happen? They don't have to feel the
Jane Stark:consequences. Yeah. Like it's so disempowering. Is that a word? I
Jane Stark:think
Jen Lang:it's disempowering. And it's also it's also actually
Jen Lang:not in service to the highest good of your partner or your
Jen Lang:loan, because you're preventing them from learning. The the
Jen Lang:lessons of mice a brothel
Jane Stark:here to learn. Yeah, right. I mean, it's the whole. I
Jane Stark:mean, I'm, you know, as a parent, we hear the term natural
Jane Stark:consequences all the time in the parenting space. And it's really
Jane Stark:interesting to start to unpack it and what does that actually
Jane Stark:mean and what does that actually look like? And what I started to
Jane Stark:realize is that Like, as a society, we don't actually
Jane Stark:really let people feel natural consequences of their actions
Jane Stark:very often. Children are not. Yeah, like, you know, even think
Jane Stark:about down to, you know, my kids aren't quite at they're not at
Jane Stark:high school level quite yet. But how many parents wake their
Jane Stark:teams up to get them to school on time? And what are you doing
Jane Stark:when you do that? Yep. How is your team going to learn to show
Jane Stark:up for work on time? When Mom's not there to kick them out of
Jane Stark:bed anymore? In the morning, so why are we stopping them from
Jane Stark:learning these lessons when they're 14 1516? And then they
Jane Stark:have to learn them when they're 25 or whatnot. I was just
Jane Stark:talking to a friend who she was we were talking about this, this
Jane Stark:exact thing and how she had to I don't remember if she refused,
Jane Stark:she said her. Her son is in his early 20s. Now, and and she I
Jane Stark:don't remember when when he was a teenager, and she did the
Jane Stark:whole get him up a door not. But she said she finally stopped
Jane Stark:like he had his first job. Or one of his, like, first jobs.
Jane Stark:And she finally like had this moment of like, Yeah, I'm not
Jane Stark:going to tell you. I'm not going to nag you about being late for
Jane Stark:work. And she's like, what happened? He finally lost his
Jane Stark:job, because he couldn't show up on time. Wow. So he had to
Jane Stark:learn. But we're coddling our children through this and not
Jane Stark:letting and then and then the cycle just continues right? And
Jane Stark:as adults, we do it to our spouses. We do it to our family,
Jane Stark:like
Jen Lang:do we feel like this is a family? There's some
Jen Lang:breakdown here around generational aspects. So I'd say
Jen Lang:that you and I fall into this broadly into jetpacks where I
Jen Lang:was definitely like a latchkey kid. I was definitely a latchkey
Jen Lang:kid, like, I got my cell phone from school. I entertained
Jen Lang:myself until my parents got home from work. And, you know, that
Jen Lang:was I was absolutely expected to be self sufficient. Got myself
Jen Lang:like, washed to myself to school in the morning. And to music
Jen Lang:lessons. Yes, my parents drove me when appropriate and when
Jen Lang:necessary, but part I think there's partly personality piece
Jen Lang:because I'm very much a self starter. Right. And partly
Jen Lang:generational.
Jane Stark:Yeah, I mean, we've heard you know, you hear about
Jane Stark:the helicopter, parent generation and all of that. I
Jane Stark:mean, I was sort of a latchkey kid, I wouldn't say I was a full
Jane Stark:on latchkey kid. Not not as much. But I also I mean, I don't
Jane Stark:know, I also had, for me, like, if I reflect on the high school
Jane Stark:years and things like that, I had, I had a different
Jane Stark:experience a little bit because I got sick. Right? In grade 11.
Jane Stark:So I still had like, eight 910. But by grade 11, I got mono and
Jane Stark:I had mono for the last half of grade 11, and first half of
Jane Stark:grade 12. So I had a free pass to come and go to school
Jane Stark:whenever I wanted to. So it was a very weird experience, because
Jane Stark:I had no accountability, like it was, you know, I don't even know
Jane Stark:if you do any more. But at that time, you actually I think you
Jane Stark:had to have a letter, like a note from a parent to leave and
Jane Stark:use, can you sign in and sign out of school? And I just had a
Jane Stark:yeah, like I say, a free pass for I just came and went as I
Jane Stark:could. So I don't really have a normal view of that. I don't
Jane Stark:think but it's an interesting question. Because did our
Jane Stark:parents not wake us up in the morning, or I don't know,
Jen Lang:I think I remember, I don't remember my parents ever
Jen Lang:getting the app. But again, I was always an early riser. I was
Jen Lang:always very self motivated in the morning. And that was for a
Jen Lang:whole variety of reasons as a teenager. But interestingly,
Jen Lang:thinking of natural consequences. So I took math 12.
Jen Lang:And around I'd say, a couple months, four months, three, four
Jen Lang:months into my grade 12 year, I started hanging out with some
Jen Lang:interesting people in a different community. And so then
Jen Lang:my grades suffered, particularly in math, because it was such a
Jen Lang:compounding. Like, if you didn't get the previous concept, you
Jen Lang:could move on to the next concept. And so, you know, the
Jen Lang:natural consequences of that was that my GPA fell and actually
Jen Lang:didn't get my final grade 12 scholarship. So I was $500. It
Jen Lang:was a every year you got more, but because of the academic
Jen Lang:classes I chosen, and that one grade pulled me down just enough
Jen Lang:that didn't actually get that $500 for university. So $500 in
Jen Lang:the 90s went a hell of a lot further than it does now
Jen Lang:obviously, but I understood then the natural consequences of
Jen Lang:balancing a social life with academics write that, for me was
Jen Lang:a very real thing now as an adult, yeah, of course I know
Jen Lang:these things. But it's always helpful to have a reminder. You
Jen Lang:know, we're because I was a self starter I would I, I still have
Jen Lang:this tendency to overbook, my calendar and over scheduling.
Jen Lang:And so every once in a while Kirk or even sometimes you've
Jen Lang:nudged me and be like, oh, looks really busy. And like, it's not
Jen Lang:all appointments like I put placeholders in there for taking
Jen Lang:breaks and things like that. But I have to remind myself not to
Jen Lang:overbook. And now that I work with my natural cycle with my
Jen Lang:period and my menstrual cycle, I know not to book a lot in that,
Jen Lang:you know, that couple days before in a couple days of
Jen Lang:otherwise, I'll burn myself out, or I know I booked myself space.
Jen Lang:So I know from natural consequence from getting sick.
Jen Lang:And those pieces so i.
Jane Stark:So that's interesting, though, because
Jane Stark:that's because you were allowed to learn to feel the
Jane Stark:consequences and have the consequences, right. But if
Jane Stark:somebody was always in there, stepping in right at the last
Jane Stark:moment to save you from, you know, whatever the thing was,
Jane Stark:you don't actually get to learn that and then you don't, and
Jane Stark:then you just keep repeating the same patterns and the same
Jane Stark:patterns and the same patterns. I think that's a big part of
Jane Stark:this, right? Like, we, again, like I look at just some
Jane Stark:incident incidences, like in my own household, I mean, I think,
Jane Stark:I think the family and parent dynamic, I think, both like
Jane Stark:relationship, like spouse partner, yeah. And then family
Jane Stark:dynamic, or the easiest way is to see where this shows up. But
Jane Stark:you know, like, for example, when my kids don't like the way
Jane Stark:my husband's parenting, and they come running to me, and I used
Jane Stark:to be really, really, like, really good at jumping in and
Jane Stark:saving the day, or course correcting or whatever. But then
Jane Stark:I wasn't actually honoring and allowing both my child and my
Jane Stark:husband to feel the consequences or to see like to, to navigate
Jane Stark:their relationship and figure out what isn't isn't working.
Jane Stark:Yeah. And so I'm actually blocking them from learning that
Jane Stark:lesson, which, when it was put to me that way, I was like, Oh,
Jane Stark:that doesn't feel very good. Exactly. It's hard. Like, I
Jane Stark:really, it's really hard for me not to jump in and be like, Hey,
Jane Stark:why don't we try it this way, or do that or this thing or
Jane Stark:whatever. Because that's my own discomfort. With However, things
Jane Stark:are going down. And so that piece, that's been my big, big
Jane Stark:lesson, like I've gone through the whole, bless the mess of the
Jane Stark:house, and let go of caring so much about what people think,
Jane Stark:or, you know, if there's a mess here or there and whatever. And
Jane Stark:now I feel like I'm in this next layer of like, Hmm, what would
Jane Stark:it look like to let people actually have their emotions
Jane Stark:about things to let people you know, be in their own mess,
Jane Stark:like, and spin in their shit and not do anything till a friend of
Jane Stark:mine called it like sitting in their puddle of mud, and go in
Jane Stark:and save the day. And I don't know, I'm still kind of
Jane Stark:unpacking where I picked this up. But I definitely picked up
Jane Stark:this Savior, piece of like the I can go in and fix it or save it
Jane Stark:or whatever. But again, it's, it's very, it's kind of from a
Jane Stark:self serving place. It's because I'm not comfortable with that
Jane Stark:mess. Or perhaps because of some ego perspective where I think I
Jane Stark:can save the day. And I'm, and I'm tying value to my ability to
Jane Stark:do that. So that's been really humbling to have to look at
Jane Stark:those pieces. Totally. Totally, also really empowering. As I've
Jane Stark:started to get over the like, initial UI with it. It's really
Jane Stark:empowering to kind of be able to go, Okay, I don't have to fix
Jane Stark:this. I don't have to save this. Like, hello, boundaries.
Jen Lang:Yes. And that so much of this conversation threads
Jen Lang:through I'm going to say through threads through so much of the
Jen Lang:work we do, because yes, it's boundaries. Yes, it's a level of
Jen Lang:self acceptance. And it's a level of surrender. And that
Jen Lang:other broader acceptance piece and love can you accept the
Jen Lang:journey and the life lessons that your loved ones are here to
Jen Lang:learn and take on without interfering?
Jane Stark:And here's an here's the clincher societal
Jane Stark:conditioning puts a lot of pressure on women to fix the
Jane Stark:mess. So it's not just like I guess there's some reflection
Jane Stark:where I'm like, where did I pick this up? So Some of it is
Jane Stark:probably childhood, a lot of it is conditioning, right? We're
Jane Stark:conditioned to be the good girl. We're conditioned as women to be
Jane Stark:the ones that go in the pathetic ones that like, Oh, you're
Jane Stark:hurting, you're hurting, let me come and like make that feel
Jane Stark:better for you to please to, you know, like, how much of things
Jane Stark:reflect if the house is messy, subconsciously, who do we think
Jane Stark:we go to first? Oh, she right keeps a really untidy house? Do
Jane Stark:we think like, oh, wow, he really like he really doesn't,
Jane Stark:you know, tidy up, I think we go to the woman first. That's just
Jane Stark:subconsciously where we go to,
Jen Lang:because women for 1000s of generations have been
Jen Lang:traditionally the keepers of the household. So the parenting and
Jen Lang:the parenting. And so all that, I mean, that is threaded through
Jen Lang:our ancestry, it's in our genetics and our DNA, and it's
Jen Lang:in social conditioning as well to this day. So then it's
Jen Lang:important to look at that, and go, you do not have to fix
Jen Lang:everything within the household, because otherwise, how will you
Jen Lang:know how your How will your loved ones know? What's theirs
Jen Lang:and what's not? And how do you know what's yours and what's
Jen Lang:not?
Jane Stark:Yeah, totally. And also some self compassion,
Jane Stark:though, because and I guess I brought up that point about the
Jane Stark:social expectations, because we're kind of swimming upstream
Jane Stark:on this one, right? We're working against a very ingrained
Jane Stark:system, as far as far as we have come for women's equality, we
Jane Stark:still have a really long way to go. And we're still, you know,
Jane Stark:on all of these things, we are absolutely working against
Jane Stark:societal expectations. I mean, but it's interesting, even I've
Jane Stark:noticed in my household now, now that I've surrendered and let go
Jane Stark:of this, like need to have things, a certain level of
Jane Stark:cleanliness or whatnot to have people over, we've almost
Jane Stark:swapped where I find my husband is more conscious. And he'll now
Jane Stark:be like, oh, like, we need to clean up. I'm like, Oh, if you
Jane Stark:feel like you need to clean up, go for it before they come over,
Jane Stark:but I'm not, which has also been really empowering. Because this
Jane Stark:is an this actually might be a really good example, where I've
Jane Stark:had to come to a place of accepting his discomfort, like,
Jane Stark:okay, he's feeling like the house is not tidy enough. So
Jane Stark:that's his own stuff to deal with. So from the emotional side
Jane Stark:of it, I have to let go with that and be like, Okay, well,
Jane Stark:and then have the boundary of, hey, like, you're welcome to get
Jane Stark:it to your standard. Whereas in the past, I probably would have
Jane Stark:felt the guilt and jumped in and been like, oh, yeah, okay, let's
Jane Stark:clean up, let's like, did it at Ulta. And now, I'm at this place
Jane Stark:of like, Cool, man, like, so it's like,
Jen Lang:I have a similar story where my husband, we have two
Jen Lang:dogs, both of whom shed and so this spring has been a copious
Jen Lang:amount copious amounts of dog hair. And, you know, the
Jen Lang:vacuuming and dry mopping piece where Kirk is, usually the group
Jen Lang:will be the first one to pull out the Dry Mop in the vacuum,
Jen Lang:because honestly, I have different priorities. And he's
Jen Lang:very self aware about it. He knows that for him seeing the
Jen Lang:dog hair and the Duster round is like disrupts his mental state
Jen Lang:and his clarity of thought. He knows that and fully owns it.
Jen Lang:But he doesn't expect me to do the vacuuming or the drug
Jen Lang:bombing. He takes care of it because that's his thing.
Jen Lang:Interestingly, though, when it comes to this is a slightly
Jen Lang:different nuanced thing. He would rather see it out of sight
Jen Lang:out of mind than actually take care of it fully.
Jane Stark:Okay, I have the same issue same. Okay, let's go
Jane Stark:to the issue. I'll rephrase that same situation at my house. And
Jane Stark:just to backup for a quick sec to in my story that I was
Jane Stark:sharing to give my husband credit. He never He is not the
Jane Stark:one that makes me feel guilty. Like no, he absolutely like
Jane Stark:Kirk, he will, he'll be the one that will get in there and
Jane Stark:clean. It was me that was taking on the guilt and the feeling of
Jane Stark:oh, I better like I better help or I better do this. Why not? So
Jen Lang:Exactly. Like I'll offer Kirk might he'll like back
Jen Lang:in the top floor. I'll be like, Yep, I'll vacuum the ground
Jen Lang:floor. But I'm not going to get to it till tomorrow. So just
Jen Lang:leave the vacuum at the bottom of the stairs and I'll take care
Jen Lang:of it tomorrow. Yeah, and so it's bit clarity but so
Jen Lang:interesting. So the sight out of mind out of sight out of mind
Jen Lang:piece is more. I'm kind of like it's a little bit like the
Jen Lang:clutter piece. But I guess if I use the my my I'm gonna broadly
Jen Lang:use recycling as a as a kind of catch all term. So I recycle our
Jen Lang:soft plastics and but I have to take them to the recycling
Jen Lang:center. They don't get picked up from our house. So I have a
Jen Lang:couple boxes by the back door. That is like one is soft
Jen Lang:plastics and one is crunchy plastics. It's like it's not
Jen Lang:rocket science. If it's soft, it goes in one if it's crunchy goes
Jen Lang:in the other. And where do I still find the plastics in the
Jen Lang:garbage? With paper? I'm like, I don't understand like, cotton
Jen Lang:great. He's probably not gonna listen to this ever, but you
Jen Lang:never know. And like, yes, my husband vacuums, he cleans. He's
Jen Lang:more like, I'm gonna say he's more about the cleaning of the
Jen Lang:counters and stuff like that, that I am. At the same time.
Jen Lang:It's the it's, I guess it's like a dissonance between the there's
Jen Lang:a cognitive dissonance between if you care so much about the
Jen Lang:cleaning. Why is the recycling such a challenge? Right? Well,
Jen Lang:it just it it's out of sight out of mind. It's like, as long as
Jen Lang:it's somewhere,
Jane Stark:or is it priorities? I don't know. It's like, it
Jane Stark:makes me think of like, so Mike. Mike likes a clean car. Hmm. So
Jane Stark:he will put like, the cars get cleaned. But sometimes I'm like,
Jane Stark:How come the house doesn't? Like, how come? There's not the
Jane Stark:same opposite thing?
Jen Lang:I like a clean car. And Chris will say he does. But
Jen Lang:I will find like three receipts crumpled up and shoved into like
Jen Lang:the coffee cup holders and like or in the thing? And I'm like,
Jen Lang:can we just like not shove it somewhere? Can we just bring
Jen Lang:them inside? Recycle them do something with them. So it's
Jen Lang:kind of an interesting, interesting, I don't know where
Jen Lang:we're going with this. But it is kind of like it is blessed the
Jen Lang:maths and let stuff go. At the same time having these open and
Jen Lang:honest conversations and, and acceptance about
Jane Stark:septons. And a lot of boundary work. It's been a
Jane Stark:lot of like I say, putting up that boundary of if he wants a
Jane Stark:cleaner house, say again, if I'm just using the example of house
Jane Stark:guests coming over, and it's not to his standard, that having the
Jane Stark:boundary of like, that's okay, I'm not going to make that be
Jane Stark:about me. And I don't, that doesn't mean that I have to
Jane Stark:necessarily get up and get it to that standard. And that has been
Jane Stark:a big shift for me. And so that's the piece of like,
Jane Stark:allowing him to have his feelings. And sometimes if I'm
Jane Stark:being totally honest, sometimes I judge him for that, like, oh,
Jane Stark:like really do just let it go and did it. That's me. That's me
Jane Stark:judging again. So having to get to that place of just like,
Jane Stark:Okay, you're not comfortable. That's okay. But that's not on
Jane Stark:me. And sort of pull it back to this, like, you know, again,
Jane Stark:letting the mental load but also letting people have their
Jane Stark:feelings, letting people be in their puddles of mud, and not
Jane Stark:running into save the day and fix it
Jen Lang:and let them understand and feel and know we
Jen Lang:can consequences
Jane Stark:be there for them. So we're not saying like, be
Jane Stark:totally cold people, and just like, oh, sucks to be you.
Jane Stark:Right? We can still have empathy, and we can still have
Jane Stark:compassion. But there's a big difference between that and
Jane Stark:going in and actually like trying to fix something for them
Jane Stark:or to control something or tell them how to do something or how
Jane Stark:they should feel. Yeah, and all the things that if my husband
Jane Stark:listens to this, he's gonna be like, Oh, my gosh, like, she
Jane Stark:really talked about this because I, I think I did really used to
Jane Stark:be that way. I'm still that way. And like, I'm still a work in
Jane Stark:progress. But, you know, it's, this has been my journey of
Jane Stark:unpacking this and like, wow, like, Okay, I need to really be
Jane Stark:okay. With every with some of the messy parts, some of the
Jane Stark:messy bits of life, like, my family doesn't look like the
Jane Stark:perfect family, and that's okay. But I don't think my dad doesn't
Jane Stark:because it's
Jen Lang:just, it's family life is by definition, messy in some
Jen Lang:form or another. And if it's, if it's pretty honestly, and if
Jen Lang:it's not, you have staff. Right, I saw this, and like speaking
Jen Lang:of, you know, learned helplessness and not understand
Jen Lang:the consequences of actions when Kirk and I lived in Abu Dhabi
Jen Lang:and Dubai. And we encountered people who grew up in homes with
Jen Lang:servants and with, you know, staff who, like the kid walks in
Jen Lang:the door, drops their bag, takes off their shoes and walks away,
Jen Lang:and the staff pick up, empty the bag, empty lunchbox. And then
Jen Lang:this child grows up gets their first job when they're 33 and
Jen Lang:has no idea how to show up in the workplace. Yeah, so there is
Jen Lang:something to be said for this, like balancing the self
Jen Lang:sufficiency, understanding privilege and showing up like
Jen Lang:learning the life lessons of like if you don't show up, but
Jen Lang:that's the other thing. Consequences. So the three three
Jen Lang:year old that I'm thinking of, didn't have any natural
Jen Lang:consequences because of the way There, the social economic
Jen Lang:structure of that country is setup. Right? They could show up
Jen Lang:whenever they want, and they would still get their paycheck.
Jane Stark:Right. So yeah, different cultural norms. But
Jane Stark:yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, coming back to sort of this
Jane Stark:natural consequences, right, like, we hear it in parenting,
Jane Stark:but I'm really starting to see where we also in adulthood,
Jane Stark:don't allow each other to feel natural consequences. Yeah. And
Jane Stark:that every time we do that, we're actually not, we're losing
Jane Stark:our mental load? Well, we are, we're also increasing our
Jane Stark:enmeshment. Like, with each other, we're not. And we're
Jane Stark:just, we're not like, what if we could all hold each other to be
Jane Stark:whole sovereign beings, and actually trust that we can
Jane Stark:navigate our way through things. And I know, like, like that
Jane Stark:might be making light. Like, there's lots of situations that
Jane Stark:come to mind where you can't just, we can't just take this
Jane Stark:conversation and apply it blankly to every scenario. But
Jane Stark:it's definitely something that, you know, I've been unpacking
Jane Stark:and navigating that we see with our own clients. Like you say,
Jane Stark:it's rooted in a lot of the work we do. And it's really fucking
Jane Stark:empowering. It's very empowering, we unpack it, and
Jane Stark:when we can start to step into, into that.
Jen Lang:So yeah, I can hear there's some kids in the
Jen Lang:background, but I can't it's not loud. I was gonna say that. So
Jen Lang:for those of you who are listening, who might be
Jen Lang:recognizing or seeing aspects of your life or yourself, where you
Jen Lang:may have taken on too much of the mental load, or you're you
Jen Lang:realize that you can allow natural consequences to unfold
Jen Lang:more fully whether the person you are keeping in mind is is an
Jen Lang:adult or not. The what are some ways that you can start with
Jen Lang:this process? Some suggested like, one might be just
Jen Lang:observing,
Jane Stark:observing? Might I feel like my answer to this
Jane Stark:question, no matter what episode we're on is a little bit the
Jane Stark:same. But it's like, yeah, it's observing and noticing what you
Jane Stark:feel about it. So stop projecting out Yeah. As to what
Jane Stark:the other person is doing and start turning that mirror and
Jane Stark:going, how's this making me feel? What am I judging about
Jane Stark:myself in this? What am I trying to control? Because I feel like
Jane Stark:where do I feel like I don't have control? So I'm trying to
Jane Stark:control here? Yes.
Jen Lang:And letting go of so hard, letting go of judgment
Jen Lang:around this self judgment. And this is where the acceptance
Jen Lang:piece comes in. If you have not yet listened to our piece on
Jen Lang:self acceptance, go back and listen to that. Right after
Jen Lang:this. That was last week's episode. This when we can move
Jen Lang:into this reflective state. And this observation based. And
Jen Lang:notice, oh, here, I'm noticing my judgment. Okay. About myself.
Jen Lang:Yeah. Okay. So Oh, that's interesting. And maybe just this
Jen Lang:phrase. Hmm, that's interesting, is a really good way to
Jen Lang:neutralize the judgment. And then you can go deeper as we
Jen Lang:went at this first begin. Yeah, the curiosity event. Yeah, what
Jen Lang:life event if you can link it to one. But again, this is kind of
Jen Lang:some of the work we do. So if you want to unpack it with us,
Jen Lang:then definitely, our 321 countdown offer is like the
Jen Lang:three sessions two of us. One transformation that's over a one
Jen Lang:month period, that's a this is it. That's a great space to
Jen Lang:start to unpack some of this. Yeah.
Jane Stark:But noticing where you're gripping, like, and where
Jane Stark:are you gripping in life? Like, where am I, you know, my friend
Jane Stark:of mine, and somebody and I sometimes talk about, like, Oh,
Jane Stark:I'm white knuckling it. And sometimes I can, like, look and
Jane Stark:go yeah, like I and, and sometimes some of it, you need
Jane Stark:an outlet, like, there are like, it's a that this whole, like,
Jane Stark:there's a lot of scenarios in life where we don't have we
Jane Stark:can't control. They're happening. They're hard, whether
Jane Stark:it's like a family member is ill or, you know, relationships
Jane Stark:coming apart or, you know, God knows, like so many different
Jane Stark:things, right, where we don't have control. And so we go and
Jane Stark:try and control other aspects. And sometimes I see myself doing
Jane Stark:it where I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm getting super uptight about a
Jane Stark:mess and clutter in the corners and stuff. Okay, yeah. Well,
Jane Stark:because I know that such and such is happening over here. And
Jane Stark:that's feeling really like, it's big. And there's a lot of
Jane Stark:emotions and it's actually making me feel better right now
Jane Stark:to just go and clean up that corner of the house. Like that's
Jane Stark:okay, too, is when we're,
Jen Lang:but again, that's taken action. Yeah. To help
Jane Stark:you feel that, again, is more around like, then
Jane Stark:we're doing that and we're doing it for ourselves. We're not
Jane Stark:projecting outwards on to other people. I think where we have to
Jane Stark:be really conscious is when we start to project that to our
Jane Stark:loved ones when we start Who should on them when we start to
Jane Stark:tell them how they, you know, should be what they should do?
Jane Stark:And all the things because
Jen Lang:it makes them feel like they're not enough? Yeah,
Jen Lang:yeah.
Jane Stark:Yeah. And then there's the whole needing cycle.
Jane Stark:So
Jen Lang:that's another whole other podcast episode when did
Jen Lang:that but
Jane Stark:hopefully this was a bit helpful, we're just trying
Jane Stark:to unpack a little bit of what you know of what we've observed
Jane Stark:and what we go through and,
Jen Lang:and when you put down some of the mental load in your
Jen Lang:life and let others
Jane Stark:let others this is the other thing if you never put
Jane Stark:it down, then you don't actually give the other an opportunity to
Jane Stark:pick it up. Yeah. And it's such an interesting cycle where we
Jane Stark:will put it down. So the other can't pick it up. But then we
Jane Stark:become resentful, because they're not picking it up. But
Jane Stark:it's like, but you're not putting it down. So how are they
Jane Stark:supposed to pick it up? Like, it's, this is the thing, right?
Jane Stark:I mean,
Jen Lang:really simple life example here. So Kirk, and I
Jen Lang:each do our own laundry. And part of this, like, for our
Jen Lang:entire relationship, we have always done her own laundry. And
Jen Lang:I think he did one load of laundry for me once I hadn't,
Jen Lang:you know, like, he put a blouse and in a trunk, and he's like,
Jen Lang:Oh, no, he's like, the thing that happened. I'm like,
Jen Lang:whatever. It's not a big deal. But, and I occasionally I will
Jen Lang:fold his laundry, but I will not put his laundry or his clothing
Jen Lang:away. Because I will not be that person to be like, where's my
Jen Lang:socks? Where's my underwear? Where did you put this? Because
Jen Lang:I didn't want that mental load. And so if you apply that simple,
Jen Lang:like laundry example, to other aspects of your life, then how
Jen Lang:much yeah, later while you're meant to load babe,
Jane Stark:can you put down and a be okay? If it doesn't pick,
Jane Stark:get back or be like, give it some time, and it will get
Jane Stark:picked up or clear communication, put it down and
Jane Stark:be really clear in a very neutral, non emotional, non
Jane Stark:judgmental way to somebody in your family, like whether it's a
Jane Stark:loved one, a friend, whatever, whoever it is, really clearly,
Jane Stark:hey, I really need you to pick this piece up for me, would you
Jane Stark:be able to do X, Y and Z like sometimes it really comes down
Jane Stark:to simply healthy communication, definitely, I no longer can do
Jane Stark:this, I need you to do it. And that's another another really
Jane Stark:simple but powerful thing. But yeah, when we don't put it down,
Jane Stark:I'll never forget, I think I've shared this example on the
Jane Stark:podcast before, but I'll quickly share it too, just to give
Jane Stark:another illustration when my kids were younger. And you know,
Jane Stark:I had my girlfriends, when all of our kids were kind of
Jane Stark:younger, there was a number of times where I remember, like,
Jane Stark:I'd go on girls weekends. And so many of my friends would lay
Jane Stark:everything out for their husbands for the kids pack. Like
Jane Stark:okay, the food, this is the food that's in the fridge, I've laid
Jane Stark:out their clothes for each day of what they need to wear, or
Jane Stark:I've packed their bag for bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla.
Jane Stark:And it's like, Is your husband not a co parent? Are they not?
Jane Stark:So but so much of it I saw was rooted in the need to control
Jane Stark:how it was done with the child? Yes. Oh, well, they might not
Jane Stark:they're gonna put them in, you know, mismatched clothing,
Jane Stark:they're gonna like, like, they're not gonna be able to do
Jane Stark:that, like, really, they're their CO parent, they should be
Jane Stark:equally able to be raising this child. And without getting into
Jane Stark:the whole thing about, you know, different dynamics that way.
Jane Stark:It's like, how are men? How was the other partner ever supposed
Jane Stark:to figure out how to do this with the child if we don't
Jane Stark:actually let them? Or if a kid
Jen Lang:wants to put a striped sock and a polka dot sock on one
Jen Lang:day, and pair it with like a tutu and some I don't know, the
Jen Lang:trousers. I mean, that's Yeah, it's like whatever, you know,
Jen Lang:it's, it's again, again, allowing the agents not
Jen Lang:experimentation.
Jane Stark:Exactly. Because that child is eventually going
Jane Stark:to go to school. And trust me, they're going to get berated
Jane Stark:with the social norms of what matches and what doesn't and
Jane Stark:know what happens if you show up all like mismatched. And that's
Jane Stark:a whole nother thing. But yeah, that's like that is the prime
Jane Stark:thing of natural consequence. Society is set up to have these
Jane Stark:borders these boundaries to help us figure out how to they're not
Jane Stark:always positive, but it's just the way it is in some senses,
Jane Stark:but we're always jumping in there interrupting.
Jen Lang:Yeah, exactly. Makes life way harder. So down the
Jen Lang:mental low, we should start a song for each episode, put down
Jen Lang:the mental load.
Jen Lang:on that happy note, please put down the mental load and lets
Jen Lang:the mess mass. let things be and if you want some guidance and
Jen Lang:some support on it, reach out word, definitely reach out to
Jen Lang:us. We'd love to help you with that. Alright, have an amazing
Jen Lang:day, night time, whatever it is, you're listening to this and
Jen Lang:we'll see you soon. and soon on no hay here by. Thanks for
Jen Lang:joining us for these conscious combos. If you're ready to dive
Jen Lang:deeper head on over to lead gen and jane.com to continue the
Jen Lang:conversation.
Jane Stark:If you love this episode, please take a moment to
Jane Stark:share it with your friends or your network and leave us a
Jane Stark:review by going to Apple podcasts. Find us on Instagram
Jane Stark:at we are Jen and Jane and let us know what you enjoy and what
Jane Stark:you would like to see more of. We'd love to hear from you
