Retained Primitive Reflexes and ADHD with Niki McGlynn

Welcome to Parenting That Kid. My name is Ashley Tolliver As a mom of twins, one being a highly sensitive child who responds to the world in a non traditional and sometimes challenging way. I understand the desire to find the golden answer. Maybe there is no golden answer. But there are resources, tips and tricks we can all use to help us make this uniquely normal parenting journey a little more fun. This podcast is a roadmap to parenting that kid for myself and other parents. If recording my journey as I seek a clear starting point, community and effort to normalize what sometimes feels abnormal, supports at least one parent, then my time is not wasted. And hey, if it doesn't, well, there's documented proof that moms deserve a glass of wine. Cheers.

Today's guest on parenting that kid is Niki McGlynn. In neurodevelopment, therapist and trainer who has worked as a therapist for over 20 years and has been working with neuro development for the last 10 years. She has a special interest in working with trauma and relationships with retained primitive reflexes in both adults and children who struggle with anxiety, focus, concentration, behavior issues, and reading and writing, you might recognize a few of those things because a lot of those traits show up in children with ADHD. Today, Nikki and I dive into what primitive reflexes truly are, how that comes about in a child or an adult with ADHD. And of course, as I asked all my guests to share lots of tools, tips and resources, as well as practical ways you can start making a change in your child's life today. Well, thank you, Nikki, for joining me today, I am really excited to learn from you because I am going to play the dumb part dumbfounded person like what is this? What is primitive reflex? And how does this go into everybody's life? And then anybody with ADHD or neurodiverse symptoms that we might feel are normal for us or see as abnormal for others or ourselves as well, I guess? How does that all support each other so that the human body human mind, can I hate saying function normal because there's no normality, but maybe comfortably function comfortably in in the world and surroundings that we are in? So thank you so much for joining me, can you share a little bit about yourself, and then what we're going to chat about today.

So thank you so much for letting me come on. I really, really appreciate it. My name is Nikki McGlinn. I'm British, as you can probably tell from my accent, I'm based just outside of London. I've been a therapist for 20 years or so. I've been doing neuro development specifically for about probably about seven or eight years. I got into it because my daughter got a diagnosis of dyslexia when she was 12. And I was diagnosed when I was 40. And I didn't want her to have the same experience of school that I had. So I was looking for something specifically that would help her so that she didn't grow up feeling like she was stupid, which is what I did when she sends her been diagnosed with ADHD as well, which I don't think came as a shock to anybody. So yeah, so it's really, you know, I was looking for something specifically to help her I was really blown away by this whole kind of system that nobody knows about. And, and you're saying about normal, you know, I've I've never met anybody who I would class as normal. We all have our foibles and our ways of being. And sometimes it's not a problem. And sometimes it really interferes with how we live our life. And I think the important thing about neuro development and understanding about primitive reflexes Is that is that there are things we can do that make life easier. And, and that's my real passion is that I see people struggle, and they don't need to struggle as much. And we can make life easier for them. So for you as an adult, or for you as a parent and for your children, because when your children struggle, you as a parent, struggle, you know, you do anything to try and make their lives easier, you know, and here is something that you can do. It's really simple. Understanding about primitive reflexes, I think, really makes a difference because because it explains why people do things, the way they do them, why they can't do things, why they do do things. So just and then that changes the conversation. If you understand that people are operating from a place of feeling unsafe in the world, then you understand their behavior differently if you understand that your child doesn't sit still because they can't because that part of the brain you know, being able to be still is a is a developmental process. So when you have a toddler, you know, you're not bothered that they move all the time because that's what toddlers do. But if their brain doesn't do well Lip enough for that part of that little tiny part of the brain to develop that allows them to be still, then they won't be still, whatever age whether they're whether they're six 718 3555, you know, if you've, if you're married to somebody who sits there and has to move their feet the entire time, you know, that can be really irritating, but they do it because because their brain won't allow them to be still. So when you understand it's a, it's a, it's a physiological thing, then you go, okay, so we'll find something else that's less irritating than somebody sitting there wobbling their foot the whole time.

Absolutely, well, so you've talked about two different you talked about dyslexia, which can come hand in hand with ADHD, right? Especially when you've got something, you've probably got a few other things on the same train with you. And then you have which dyslexia isn't the movement action, but then you have what the typical ADHD when movement, and again, there's tons of ADHD types out there. So that's just the classic that everybody kind of pings yet. So when you say printed reflexes and my head, I think, Oh, back way back in the day, you know, where we were developed a cellular that forms coming into things and being animal lipstick type of beings in my head. But I'm not a professional at this. That's why I brought you on. So if you don't mind sharing a little bit more with me on what exactly primitive reflexes are maybe how it started, where it's how we've developed to learn more about it, I would love to,

yeah, so So, first of all, I absolutely agree, the more I work with with people who are neuro diverse, the more obvious it becomes that that all of these conditions are a spectrum. So Autism is a spectrum which we accept, but so is ADHD. So is dyslexia dyspraxia, dyscalculia. And they all interlink. So I think the idea that you have this category, this box and this box and this box, I don't think works, I don't think that works for people anyway, you know, and, and also, depending on the stress and strain, or Andrew in daily life can depend on how well you're able to deal with those things, you know, or mask, you know, massive issue for kids at school and adults at work. So, so that I think that's a really important thing to be aware of that is that is that neuro diverse is neuro diverse. Otherwise, you just end up with this. Now I see kids that have got this great big long list of, of diagnosis, you know, all these three letter and yesterday PTV. You know, I mean, it's just endless, endless, you know, and they're just kids who are struggling. So that's the first thing. But secondly, so so primitive reflexes are movement patterns. And that's the really important thing primitive reflexes of our reflexive movement patterns that all babies do. All over the world, irrespective of color, race, or anything, we all do the same movements, they start in utero, they start during pregnancy, and they should all have integrated by about 18 months or so, some reflexes integrate and go away. Some reflexes transform into into other reflexes. So we have primitive reflexes and transitional reflexes, which is a movement pattern that goes from one thing to another thing. And then we have postural reflexes, which are the things that stay around and keep us upright and stop us from falling over. The important thing about primitive reflexes is that they integrate into our system, and they lie dormant so they don't disappear. Okay, they can be reactivated. So, so PTSD, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, can show as a reactivation of, of the Moro reflex, which is one of the fear reflexes, I probably the only reflex that anybody's ever heard of, you know, car accident that gives you whiplash can reactivate your neck reflexes. So it's really important to be aware that that although they they integrate into your central nervous system and disappear, they're still there because it's about survival. You know, we are wired for survival. primitive reflexes are part of that survival process.

So interesting that it's not gone. It's just asleep, almost. And it's how you react is anything Hey, sweet

aged, you know? Yeah. Okay. And

so well, I mean, you make a great point. So there's the spectrum of so many different things, all short letters that we have now combined them into. And then we reactivate, and then the more reflexes one that I know as a nurse, I've spent many, many years as a nurse and in newborns, the NICU and all that so we check, you check for all those reflexes. How does a reflex So in my head, I think of my time period working with these babies and the reflexes are all physical things we were checking for, right? You put their little bodies this and they go, their hands go out, or, you know, the best thing every Mama loves is when they would put their big fingers and their little ones hands and their hands would naturally just curl around those fingers and hold tight. So those are all very difficult. Right? Isn't that and I remember testing my babies. Oh, they still have that? Oh, good. Okay, like in my head, I wanted them to have that because that's holding on to you. But you also do want it to disappear or to go to sleep? How does that show up? So in somebody who, for the movement side, maybe it didn't go away? So it's showing up as this constant fidgety? But I don't see that in babies. I mean, they do move a lot. But I don't feel like that. We call that a type of reflex like, oh, that baby's moving. It's this reflex. So how does that show up? As a big eye on moving? And how do you call what what would you call that kind of thing,

okay, because Because retained reflexes all have an or having an impact on how we function. So if you are so reflex is something you have no control over, right. So if you have a reflex that's still active, it means that you then don't have the control over your body and your mind that you should have if that reflex had integrated, so so that that need to constantly move that we see in ADHD is is is the part of the limbic system. Basal Ganglia hasn't connected properly. And that's associated with a reflex called the spinal gland reflex. Okay, which is a reflex that's involved in birthing, let me get my baby. It's my, my emergency baby. Okay, so and the spinal black reflex runs down either side of the lower spine, okay, so when a baby's been coming down the birth canal, and, and the, and the birth canal is is pressing on that part, then what happens is the baby's sorry, baby, for the baby's hip and shoulder move towards each other, right, and allows it to wriggle. So if you imagine it's doing this down the birth canal, it helps to wriggle down the birth canal and be born and a lot of reflexes are associated with birthing process. So if you're so if that reflex remains active here, then then that then has an impact on being able to control your spine. So and you can have these reflexes retained both sides, or just one side or the other. So if it's retained on one side, for instance, then that can then have an impact on spinal mobility, and then it can then contribute towards things like scoliosis, and a deviation of the spine. Also, if this reflex, if you if you have a retained spinal gland reflex and you stroke down here, I don't ever do both sides together because it can cause the bladder to release. But if you stroke down here, then what happens is that hip will kick out because it's irritating. So if you have this part of your back is constantly irritated by touch, then wearing something around your waist can be really irritating. So you wear things either very low. So kids with a trousers around their hips, or really high, so you're avoiding this part. It also makes it really uncomfortable to sit with your back against the chair. So if you think of those kind of difficult teenagers who've got their genes around their hips, they're slumped forwards on their chair to the section of their chair, they're rocking, because they can't sit still, you know, and that happens, they get set out of the class or they get into trouble because and that's all because of that reflex. It also interferes with your ability to listen. Because in utero, your spine conduct sound up to your brain before your ears are working. So that reflex is still active, then then your spine is still trying to conduct sound up to your brain along with your ears. So then auditory processing becomes really difficult or noises behind you, us super distracting, you know. So listening becomes difficult because you become overwhelmed. So I have parents who bring kids who go while we've had his cheering here in chat, but he won't listen. Well, no, he won't listen because he's turning it off because it's too much input. So there's masses of of, of you know, and there's you know, there's there's a whole long list of things that impact just because that reflex is still active.

Wow, wow, you just blew my mind because in my head, I'm just going oh, this and that. And this person. Yep. Yep. Yep. I've seen oh my gosh, okay, so I have two questions. One, okay. Occupational therapy, many children and I'm not sure about over where you're where you live, but here in the States and especially where I live. Many children attend occupational therapy and my children did and and I'm thinking of sensory struggles, right? You just talked about your jeans or your pants sitting right at levelers sitting in your back against the chair right there that can feel really uncomfortable, almost painful. So children get occupational therapy for sensory. Then you talked about auditory. I remember sitting in the waiting room, there was a little boy there that was his mom was mentioning who's there for auditory? Oh, he can hear. I mean, his ears are fine. And so that would be Yeah, it's right. It's hearing and listening are very different things I tell my children all the time. I know you can hear me, but listening might not be happening. So then is that an option to support children with this? Or does there need to be more in depth that maybe we don't know about? Or we are not incorporating with the additional therapy.

So occupational therapy is amazing, amazing. And I also know some amazing, amazing occupational therapists it does, and it makes such a difference to kids. My experience here is that often occupational therapy doesn't start developmentally early enough. Okay, so So the thing about looking at primitive reflexes, particularly a movement programs to integrate primitive reflexes, and I use primarily a system called movement movement training, which uses rhythm is that it is that it addresses what goes on in the brain in utero, and that those very early months post delivery, whereas occupational therapy tends to start a bit later on developmentally. So if you have if your sensory processing issues, sensory input is processed through the brainstem, which is the earliest part of the brain to develop, it's the only part of the brain that's developed at birth. So that's the part of the brain we need to work on. So and you work on developing the brainstem by using passive movements, so you don't move you lie there and somebody moves you. And that helps to stimulate the brainstem. So if you're looking at working with sensory stuff, that's what you need to do, you need to move passively, you need to move passively in a way that is relaxing and not irritating. Because if you have sensory processing issues, then you need to find a way to move that doesn't then upset that or if you have vestibular issues. So if your balance system isn't working well, you know, and that we see that a lot in kids, you know that the vestibular system hasn't matured properly. So if you're rocking them up and down, which is one of the movements we do and their head is moving, then that can be massively upsetting because because this system isn't working well. And then the facility system develops neutro so that's really the point you need to be working out with a lot of these children is what went on in pregnancy and what went on immediately after delivery.

So okay, so some, when they're newborns, you start working through this. Absolutely. How would you know? Yeah, that some newborn little bitty is going to need this type of support or assistance.

I think so what so the newborns I tend to see who come to me or you know, the sort of babies that I see who come to me for help tend to be babies that have had a tricky birth that we know about. So you know, so they they look like they have a diagnosis of cerebral palsy or something like that. Okay, so then so then we look at that, but then I would say to people who have who have had a tricky birth so not many people now have a kind of a our labor No, we see people who have really really long vague Labor's are really protracted laborers or labor where there's an assisted delivery, so pontoons or forceps, or they have a section as his own section planned or emergency. So or a very, very rapid delivery, you know, my daughter was born an hour and 15 minutes start to finish. So there's no time for those reflexes to be able to activate do their job. So so any baby really who's been through an atypical birth would benefit from from an understanding of this kind of process. But things like baby massage will often help that, you know, baby massage, putting babies on their tummies. You know, one of the biggest issues we have now is babies spend all their times on their backs. And we talk about tummy time or they haven't had tummy time. Well, babies should be on their tummies. That's where they should be, you know, they feel safer when their tummies are covered. It helps calm down that Moro response, it helps development of their eyes and their ears and their necks. So so so babies need to be either on their tummies or in a forward facing sling, you know, so they're facing into you because that mimics being on their tummy, or lying on their tummy on you. You know, all of that stuff is great, but you know, that's really how we can help babies to develop naturally.

Okay, well, we'll see you just answered one of my questions. I thought, Well, what about C section babies they just Don't get that chance. And in my years in nursing, I would like I mentioned, I was in the NICU and I postpartum. And I've, you know, maternity was my thing, my specialty. And so I know quite a bit about the importance of the birth canal and all that comes along with that for the mother and the baby. But those babies, some babies don't get that chance where they are rushed out really fast for medical reasons that are, you know, many times necessary.

Yeah. The important thing about about the understanding of these things are the issues and these are what we can do to make it better. So, so seeing a cranial osteopath or cranial sacral therapist, or somebody who can do that kind of manipulation, it makes a massive difference. baby massage makes a massive difference. holding your baby walking with your baby, you know, movement that the key to the key to brain development is movement, movement, movement movement. So if you put your baby in a sling and where your baby as much as possible, then then that will that will also make a big difference in in in how, how that development goes, you know, they're and they're also a baby in a sling on your chest will still feel and hear your heartbeat and the rhythm of you walking and moving. So it's comforting and it's and it's helpful. So wow, well, your baby.

Your baby? Yes, absolutely. Where your baby? Okay, so, ADHD is the typical bouncing moving can't sit still. Which is it? The majority of people think about that when they think of ADHD, but focus is so big and that is people will say it's because they're moving and stuff. And then that's not always the case. Some are just, often Dreamland somewhere and it's not, they're not moving at all. So

how does this focus, they need to move to be able to focus correct. So if you say to those who say to a child, so So in in the UK, we we don't have a DD as a diagnosis, we have ADHD. And then you can have ADHD, inattentive, ADHD, hyperactive or ADHD combined. Which means you have a bit of both. But if you have a child who's got ADHD hyperactive, or in fact inattentive, and you say such All right, you need to, you need to sit down and sit still and pay attention. They'll sit down, and they'll sit still. And their whole focus will be on sitting down and sitting still, right, there's no space for learning, because everything is about being still. Whereas if that child can fidget stand up, you know, have fidget toys, or have a band, you know, I'm a big fan of a band at that area. We've got them everywhere. They can bounce their feet on, you know, or a Wobble Cushion. If they can move, then they'll be able to concentrate. But yeah,

emulating that reflex. Sorry. Is that stimulating that reflex then? So the

next No, because the reflex is active, therefore, they can't sit still. So what you need to do is integrate that reflex. Oh, I see. Okay, and that allows the brain to develop and then they can be still.

Okay, I see. And so there's two ways

you know, there's there's, there's, there's dealing with the symptoms, you know, I have retained spinal Gilad reflex, therefore, I must move, okay, sit on a Wobble Cushion, have a fidget toy, stand up whatever. And I have attained retain spinal go out reflex, I need to integrate that reflex. So and then you the way, essentially really, the best way of integrating reflexes is movement. So whether it's whether it's rhythmic movement training, or MRI or Brain Balance, or or Institute of Human Potential, family Hope Center, you know, all of these people have different movement programs that help those reflexes to integrate. So it's just finding whoever's local, or whatever works for you.

So that would be something to do with children that are older, right? You're beyond the newborn stage where you can do all these micro focus right now the child is bigger and so much more going on in their life. So going through those types of places can help integrate those, you're kind of lost a few years, but now you're in your movement to get okay. That's wonderful.

When you really show up until they're at school, you know, because you go, you know, my perfect baby who I love and who loves me, and they're just active, you know, or they're just, you know, that's just how they are or their dad was like that, you know, I hear that. Oh, well, their dad was like that. Oh, I was like that, you know? Yeah, absolutely. And was your life easy? And I think also, children now seem to exhibit worse symptoms than parents. You know, I can see, I can see my mum wasn't great with maths. I was cheering, you know, I'm dyscalculia. I can't do numbers at all. And I have problems with processing and, you know, my rooms and baths, you can see that so, you know, that's all dyslexic stuff, you know, and then my daughter's a little bit worse because of now how we raise our children. So that has an impact on on function.

Interesting. So how does this incorporate into dyslexia? Do you mind speaking a little bit to that because there's not movement, it's not dyslexic type of thing. And it is all about processing the information that comes in right Dyslexics see the information differently, process it differently. And I do like how it's not really super cool, but it may not be what we're needing it to be. How does that integrate?

You know, growing up, you know, I grew up dyslexic. Just calculate, thinking I was stupid. You know, and, and, and those same issues, you know, with, with, with people who grew up with ADHD and an autism, you know, you have that thing where you don't quite fit, right people don't understand you, you don't understand other people. You know, it's like you you're not it, you're in the wrong tribe, and the end, and I couldn't, you know, I'm all my friends when the top group for everything, you know, I'm clearly can talk, but I really struggled with getting my dues on paper, I could spell, you know, nothing wrong with my spelling, nothing wrong with my grammar. But actually getting that information out was really hard. I could verbalize it, but I'm gonna write it. So, you know, and, and. And because then all of these neurodiverse things interlock, you know, you're if you're struggling with all the self esteem issues, and rejection sensitivity of ADHD, and then on top of that you are a bit dyslexic or dyspraxic, or a bit dyscalculia. It just compounds those issues. So and dyslexia, dyspraxia, and just calcular all neck reflex issues. So three neck reflexes, there's this one, I'm not even going to go into the names because they're really lost, okay? Okay, so there's this neck reflex, which in babies, it's, again, that's to do with being in the womb of being forward and being born and coming out. So and an in babies, if you've, it's the reflex that when you go to put a baby in the car seat, and they arch backwards, and you can't get them in, and you think they'd be awkward. But actually, what's happened is that their head has moved beyond this midline, you know, because you've got midline down the middle, and you've got a midline, down your side. So when the head moves beyond this midline, if it moves forward, you collapse, if it moves backwards, you hyperextend Okay, so So then you've got kids at school, who go to do their work, and they slumped on their desk, you know, because you lie on their desks to lie, you know, they sit up straight, tuck your shirt, you know, and again, you sit up straight, can't write anything now, because the only way you can write as soon as your head goes forward, you want to collapse. So there's that reflex, this, this reflex, which when you move your head beyond this central midline, this arm wants to extend this leg wants to extend, which I can't show you, when the opposite arm comes in, and the opposite leg comes in. So it's like, they pull the fence up position. Okay, so then what happens as you get older, if you move your head to the side, so that causes lots of problems with left and right. Okay? And, and symmetry within the body. But it means that when you head turn your head to the side, the side that you turned your head to this arm wants to extend to if you're trying to write, soon as you get your head beyond that midline point, your arm wants to go out. So you have to then turn the page round and right up hill, so that you're staying in one plane, that you see an adult who drive, then they go to look at their Sat Nav or or behind them. And what happens is, wherever they turn the head, the arm wants to stand in this arm comes in. So they swerve, that's what you do. You know, and then there's a third neck reflex, which, which is actually in your core set. And that's to do with crawling. So babies who don't crawl, often it's because their neck reflexes are still active. So in this then interferes with processing in the prefrontal cortex. So being able to organize your thoughts get to places on time, spatial awareness, all of those things are all to do with those neck reflexes.

Wow. And so in that, you know,

bad handwriting. Oh, yeah. Because this reflex is, is

contrary turning your head that direct those directions, your your brain is not to hold

your hand, your writing comes from the shoulder, right? So you know, so if if every time you turn your head, your arm wants to ping out, you have to hold your arm in really tight to be able to write and then you get this kind of my son has this reflex. He doesn't really have any problems, but you know, so that's a really good example. He's got a degree in everything, no issues, but his handwriting looks like a cardiac trace. Because he has to hold his arm in so tight. There's no There's no room for being right. It's up and down. So that this is um, doesn't go when he's writing.

Okay, wow. So that comes from the birth radio. I mean, it's I'm just You've blown my mind, because now I can just think of so many things. Oh, that Oh, and it all, it all makes so much sense you're piecing together, things I have noticed in my own children and other children. And when we go, let's something's got to be off. And I don't know what it is, but you're piecing it all together for me.

So this reflex makes you scared of going downhill

weight, not like the one when you nod your head, it makes your head so you're not

your head forwards, right? And your body wants to collapse. If you're gonna go downstairs and you'd look to go downstairs, your body wants to collapse. So you so it's like, oh my god, I'm gonna if I walk down the stairs, I'm gonna fall for go down this hill.

Okay, well, I know I have recently not like roller coasters. And I'll be sharing with everybody who tries to get events, because they always do like, No, you go down that thing. Oh, my gosh, okay. But that reflex is developed through the birth canal. So you've shown that kind of arching? Yeah.

Yeah. So it's so so the so this, this reflex is, it's part of being in the womb, this right here, and then this one is not being born. This one is that as you turn your head to emerge, yeah. So

and if you don't get that option, or the opportunity option, that opportunity when you're sectioned out, I can completely see how that is just not integrated into your body yet. No. So okay, and also reflexes

developed sequentially. And so they don't, they don't kind of go this then this then this then is because because that's not how any of us develop or anything, but they kind of go fear reflexes, final reflexes, neck reflexes, okay. Okay. So the fear reflexes, which is the fear paralysis reflex, which we haven't talked about in the Moro, reflex, which we've touched on, if they're still active, nothing else can integrate. So so they kind of act as a gateway. So So the primary reflex I see when people come for an appointment, is that they have retained fear reflexes, because they'll just stop everything.

Can you speak more to the theory flex, how does that present in one's life.

So the fit so or so the, the, and these are really big. So particularly now, where we have so many people who are struggling with anxiety, social anxiety, not just because of the pandemic, but I think the pandemic has, in some ways really highlighted it. So you have the fear paralysis reflex, which is present, possibly from conception, but certainly from the point where you're where you're a little fetus with arm and leg thing. And the Moro reflex, and the fear paralysis reflex kind of morphs into the Moro reflex, and they run parallel from it. And sometimes I see people who have both of those reflexes active and they can flip between the two. So the fear paralysis reflex shuts down your system. Okay, so, and the Moro reflex, activate your system. Okay. So I've got, I was gonna say, I was just gonna say some really important, it's funny that my head anyway, so the fear paralysis reflex. If you that still active for you, then anything that you need to do that makes you feel anxious. And what I was going to say, which fell out my head is the important thing about the fear reflexes is that they don't necessarily make you frightened, but they will stop you from feeling safe. Okay, okay. So that's really important, because then that means you have somebody who, whatever they do, whatever you do, as a parent, whatever you do as an adult, you essentially feel unsafe in the world. Okay. So you're living your life with that sense all the time, that you're not safe. Even at home, you don't feel safe. So then sometimes we externalize that and try and do things to make ourselves feel safe. I don't feel safe, I don't feel safe. Because I haven't checked, the taps turned off, I haven't checked, the cookers turned off, I haven't checked the front door shut. I'll check the front door shut, or check the front door shut or check. But it's an internal problem that we then try to make an external solution to. So fear paralysis reflex because it shuts down the system. You then get children and adults but we'll talk about children first, who who have issues like selective mutism. Because they can't speak because they're anxious. They're put on the spot. They can't speak. But we also get children who are really, really, really good. There's children who are really good, who don't want to do anything wrong, because they don't want to draw attention to themselves because as soon as they've got attention on themselves, it makes this just improves. So if you go right back to two babies to tiny babies, these the babies who when they cry, and you pick them up and rock them to try and make them feel better, they cry more. Because because they, they want to be still because they, they haven't active their promises so that their policies shuts down their systems, they want to be still, you come along, mom go, Oh, they're their baby, I'll make you feel better. Worst thing in the world. Whereas Moro, reflex, two parts to the Moro reflex, this that startle, okay, but then there's also the cleaning and crying stage. So sometimes fear paralysis and the second stage of Moroccan look similar, because they're both about clinging on and look after they make me feel safe. But full paralysis will shut down your system. And it's associated with all kinds of kind of autoimmune things, allergies. All of those, you know, lots of anxiety problems, acrophobia, OCD, all of those kinds of things. And the Moro reflex, which is more associated with things like fight flight. So if you've got a child who runs away Moro reflex if you've got a child who's argumentative and gets in fights, Moro reflex, because because that's the space they're living in, and it comes from the fact that they don't feel safe. So if you're under threat, do you have an active Moro reflex in you feel? Somebody somebody looks at you funny? You fire them? Because Because that's activating that reflex.

Right? Wow. Hmm. So if they're running hand in hand, you can almost have like this up and down, up and down. And that in itself can cause anxiety, this constant imbalance between the two that are

so you can have, you can have fear paralysis reflex shut down my system. I'll be I'm at school. I'll be really good because I don't want to draw attention to myself. Go home. Flip into the morrow state. Yeah. Oh, you can have somebody who fear paralysis is okay. But they live in Morrow. So at school, they're fighting, fighting, they come home, and they're like, Oh, mommy, mommy.

Right. I think that yeah, that's safe. Yes. Wow.

How can you stay in adults? Yeah. So I was thrown out. So people who so people, particularly people at work, say, who who just go on everybody's nerves, you know, they get crossed, because you've moved their desk, or you've opened the window, or, you know, you've done something different, because they don't feel safe. They have to, they have to control their environment. So if you do something to upset their environment, then that immediately makes them feel unsafe. So they have to do things to make themselves feel safe. Or the people who you know, who become unnecessarily aggressive, you know, because you've said the wrong thing, or the tone of voice or whatever. And these reflexes are really close to six are closely associated with the vagal system. So if you know about the vagus nerve, is that sort of fight flight freeze flop form, then you can see how those interact. So because because the vagus nerve you know, it's all about being able to read faces. So if your Moro reflex is is overactive, then what somebody's you know, somebody's smiling at you and you don't see it as a smile, you see it as a as a as a grimace or as an attack, you misinterpret the information that you will see.

Wow, oh my gosh, wow, that is so amazing to me that there's I mean, I'm a believer what we utero is so important like that, and that birth and that bolt that whole time if your life is so important, but I didn't realize that the integration, the reflexes and how that showed and display itself differently as you're older, and as you continue to grow, right, you've got the newborns, and you've got these kids, and then you've got an adult, and how those are still so important. It just, it all still aligns. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So

yeah. I have adults who come you know, I see a lot of adults who have anxiety issues, a lot of adults. So So there's a big crossover with ADHD and complex trauma, where where complex trauma can look exactly the same as ADHD. So you know, so actually, what we're looking at dealing with is the trauma, but you can be looking at dealing with birth trauma that somebody is not even aware of as being trauma. But but these are the symptoms that that show so this is how this is how we need to address it. How would

you suggest somebody go about maybe looking into more of this for their child for themselves? I mean,

you know, I would go because obviously I'm in the UK, so you're not going to come over and sue me It gets really fun. But you know, there's this, there's plenty of people, the majority of reflex work seems to be focused on children. But there are still plenty of people out there who who will work with adults, you know, and understand. And this is why it's so important to me to be doing this kind of podcast because then if, if anybody is watching, who's a, who's a psychotherapist, or a counselor or a psychiatrist, or works with people with mental health issues, who hears this and kind of goes, Okay, maybe this is another way of looking at it is because, because understanding, just understanding reflexes and the impact they have on your system can really unlock a lot of the a lot of the trauma work that's being done at the moment, you know, there's a lot of somatic trauma work being done. So internal family systems, and somatic experiencing and somatic psychotherapy, and all the work the Bessel Vander Kolk is doing and yoga for trauma. And all of this stuff is so important, because trauma is stored physically in your body. But if your primitive reflexes are still active, and nobody's addressing those reflexes, then you're only ever gonna go so far. So I think it's really important that we that we get this understanding of reflexes and how they affect adults and how they underpin conditions that we see like OCD and social anxiety and an all of those trauma related conditions that actually sometimes what we also need to look at is the is the reflex, the active reflexes and how they affect people.

Can you work simultaneously with the reflexes and other areas? Or is it disrupts this first and then got

one? Absolutely, absolutely. Okay. It's movement patterns. So if we can address those through movement, it doesn't matter what else you do, you can you know, men it works beautifully. Okay. Even with things like EMDR, you know? Yeah. And because Negley bought x, these are all associated with high control.

Right, right. Yes. So, you know,

people I see kids who have problems with tracking. And this happened to my daughter, we went and saw a behavioral ophthalmologist who gave her eye exercises to do she couldn't do that. So just because a neck reflexes. So when we look at what was going on with the neck reflexes, then then she's got more control over our eyes.

And then she could do this. Interesting, okay, how would people find somebody local to them or more information on supporting themselves or even just researching and learning more about?

So so in the States, there's this this lot. So probably the easiest way to find somebody is is good on Facebook, you know, local Facebook groups, you know, who have you used, you can put on a Facebook group. Does anybody know about primitive reflexes? And hopefully, somebody will pop up and go, yes, you know, or have a look, if you know what you're looking for? If so, if you look up, if you Google, you know, somebody who works with primitive reflexes to primitive reflex integration, then then you'll find somebody local. So, so I primarily use a system called rhythmic movement training. Okay. Okay. So so that will pop up. Dr. Robert Milenio does Brain Balance. So he wrote a book called disconnected kids. He's doing some really exciting big research at the moment. So So what he does is great. There is another system called MNRI which a lot of chiropractors use which is mosquito over neurological something or other but if you Google em NRI that comes up or NRI primitive reflexes that comes up. That's more about so so Ribbit movement is about rhythmic movement. Robert Mueller, Leo's work is mostly about re patterning the reflex patterns. Okay, so, so doing the starfish, the Moro reflex,

MN ri uses a lot of muscle resistance. Okay, so so that that is more than something that you're going to see somebody to do. So.

Robert Muller, Leo's were inpp in this country, family Hope Center and Institute for Human Potential over in the States. They will use a similar kind of approach that you do at home. And rhythmic movement training is something that you that you would do at home, so you'd see a consultant who would go I suggest you do this movement, and then you do at home and there's there's loads on the internet just need to be with everything, isn't it with everything on the internet, you just need to be very careful. But you know, but it's movement. So, so and I'm really If you take on board the fact that movement develops the brain, rhythmic movement works better. Dancing, martial arts, swimming, racquet sports, playing a musical instrument, all of those things will help. You know, which is why they did research on tea dances for dementia, you know, that's why tea dances for dementia is really effective, because it's, it's, it's social. So then you're more relaxed, it's rhythmic. And it's repeated patterns. And that helps you because you're you can develop your brain at any age, you know, from from, from birth to death, brain is plastic, grow new neural pathways grow new brain cells, all the time, the way to do it is movement. Yoga, like that is doesn't matter, you know,

all different ways to do this, and it helps all across the board. Love that. I love that. And that's, you know, as a parent, and you probably could speak to this with some other child who you've had to work with throughout the years, it's integrating something new or going somewhere else. It's just like, oh, no, it's one more and you'll do it because you love your child and you want to give your child the best but it can get overwhelming when you start a new rhythm or a new pattern or whatever. But if this is the movement, what you can do anywhere anywhere, is is the quote unquote answer or the one of the support systems that your child needs. It's such a simple little shift that you can add to your day and it doesn't feel heavy and like a big burden to get start this new process of things.

Like you know, the things that kids do naturally, before the days of iPads, you know, that rolling down hills rolling down a hill look rolls downhill, incredible for brain development, incredible for brain development. Okay, spinning is really great for your vestibular system, it really helps your your ear development because you know, and your eye development and all that proprioceptive pressure on your body, you know, to where am I is you know, so a lot of kids who don't know where they are in space, that's another reason fidgety, if you don't know where you start and finish, you tap, tap, tap, tap, or that's where my hand is. That's where my foot is. That's where my leg is, you know, because because your brain doesn't know. So yeah, going to the park. Because Because now I don't know about over there, but here are parks, it becomes super safe. You know, you can't, you can't spin around on a roundabout you go flying off anymore. Every you know, swings and roundabouts and the thing about roundabouts and swings, there's really good as you can work in different planes. So remember, we said at the beginning of vestibular system, your balance system develops in utero. It's the system that everything else hangs on to is really important that that's working well. So get your kids down the park, put them on the roundabout, make them sit, make them stand, make them lie, make the lie with a head hanging down, let them learn their tummy, love their back, all different planes helps the brain to develop, put them on a swing, make them swing, make them learn the swing, make them learn this swing on their tummy, spin them around on the swing, you know, so, um, spirits. Yeah, all of that stuff. All of them.

Okay, well, so those are some great tips. I was just gonna ask, Can you give me some more ways that people can start integrating this but you just did. And now I'm taking off. I think our park is the only one left for the spinny thing only because it's an old neighborhood. Nobody's gone to that yet. But that's okay. So if people don't have that ability, or if you're just in your house, do you have other ideas or tips that people can start using today.

So, you know, if you've got if you've got an office chair that spins, your keynote, or you can spin go out, you know, spinning around, you know, helicopter spins, when we say truck, it's all the things we say to our kids don't do that. Don't do that you make yourself dizzy. That's the toy. That's the point. They need to be dizzy, be dizzy, you know, anything that involves them and particularly floor based things. Okay, so anything that involves rolling around on the floor, anything that involves you know, stuff that they use on their hands because we didn't even touch on hand and foot reflexes, you know, so so if you've got a kid who doesn't like to get their hands tactile Yeah, yeah. So that's it. So you know, anything that involves using their hands so, clapping games. Cat's Cradle your cat's cradle over there with warrior so cams cradle party anything cooking you know cooking is amazing. making bread you know, kneading the dough, getting their hands moving, getting their palms with pressure oil is really great.

All these things that were so natural back that doesn't not long ago, but it was just the way the world worked. And now we have removed so much that because we have automated everything and for we have put these what we feel are safety measures around our children. Yeah. And and then we struggle with the after effects of that because now we're trying to figure out how do we give them back this ability to to sit still to focus to

what extent the accidents happen. Slide, you know To my, my mum, for 40 years ran a day nursery and it was attached to an infant school. So kind of three to five. So she had them. She had them three to five. So the school was five to seven. And they had like an activity trail. So you climb up things and jump off things and balance on things. And a kid fell off and broke his arm. Very sad for the kid what shape but they closed it. I mean, kids, kids break things, and then they get better, you know, right. Right, we need to be less risk averse, we need to accept that stuff happens. And it's okay, you can't wrap your kids in Cold War, because it doesn't help them. It doesn't help them. It makes them anxious, and it makes them unable to communicate and it makes them have problems, building relationships. And then we

try to quote unquote, fix it right. We're and then we're, how do we make our could be able to do all that stuff? Yeah.

And I tell you one thing that's really important is that is that is that when we have babies and tiny, tiny newborn babies, we need to look at them. We need to look at our babies. So they look look at us, because that helps to build their limbic system right at the beginning. That whole you know, when you look at your baby and your pupils expand their babies, pupils will expand to mimic that. And that is the first precursor to developing their limbic system with your with your baby feeding your baby and you're on your phone. Don't look at baby, then that process doesn't happen. And then that has implications for developing relationships right the way through.

Interesting.

So yeah, so yeah, so little tiny babies, look at them, throw them in the

throat. This is great advice. Thank you. This is really wonderful. And you have opened my mind and I definitely want to do more research. Do you have any books that you would suggest because I love or blogs or any of that that you might encourage people to pick up or listen to? Or read?

Yes, I'm just I'm looking around because I've literally just got them all out. And now that I've put them hold on a second. Yeah, it's okay

so, to this disconnected kids, which is Dr. Robert Manolio, which is actually by my bed, which is why I haven't got it here. Okay. So there's that backwards beyond the sea squirt. See, so she's, she's rhythmic movement training. Okay. movements that hail. This is an old cover. It's got a tree, I think on the front now Harold Bromberg and Moira Dempsey. That's really good. This is a very old book, reflexes and learning and behavior Sally Goddard. So she's now Sally Goddard Blythe. She's written lots of books on reflexes. So So you know, but you can you can put this if you just go to your local bookshop, or another online bookshop, and put in primitive reflexes, lots and lots of things come up and lots of things that are associated with them so yeah, this this there's lots of things about hemispheric dominance. So you know if you're if you're right handed, if you're right handed, you want to be right handed right footed, right. I'd in my head. Lots of kids, I see a right handed but left footed. Definitely. So you know, that has impact. So that's, that's also something that's that that's worth looking at. There's lots of information out there, it's just getting it out there so that people know, that's because I think you have to be looking for something and looking for something specifically to be able to find it. So but the more we talk about it, the more we go like, Hey, this is something that causes a huge problem, but actually can be relatively easy to sort out. You know, and it doesn't matter if you've got a kid who's on medication, you can still do movements with them. Right now, it doesn't matter you there's not one or the other.

Right, right. Well, well, thank you so much, Nikki, this was wonderful information. And I'm I'm really excited. As I said before, I kind of did some research, but I was very, it just didn't click but it definitely did today. So really, thank you for joining.

I think sometimes it's challenging. It's trying to make it more relatable. I am in the process of doing an online course lecture webinar. We call it just about primitive reflexes, okay, that people will be able to buy and watch. And it's just about primitive reflexes, what they are, what the implications are what they do, and there'll be a PDF to go with it. And then

that's fine. We're sorry, how can people find this and then find you?

So I'm, my website is is WWW dot organized mind.co.uk But it's organized with an s not a Zed because I'm a Brit. Okay. And on Facebook, I'm organized Mind and and you'll know it's me because my logo is you know the, my, I'm clearly a bit menopausal because my brains go for you know that whole story about the dancer throwing starfish. Do you know that story I don't know man walking on the beach one morning. And in the distance he sees a dancer dancing by the edge of the water. As he gets closer you realize it's not a dancer, it's a little boy picking up starfish that have all washed up onto the beach. And he's throwing them back into the water. And he says, what, what you're doing? And he said, Well, I'm saving the starfish. And he said, You can't save them all. And he picked up a starfish. And he threw it into the water. And he said, save that one. And I think that's really important. You know, we can't fix everybody. But if we just fix one person, we just help one person to live their life, fulfill their potential, then who knows what difference that would make? So so that's how your family is. It's somebody throwing a starfish back. And

I love that. I love that. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. Nikki, this is such good information. I mean, thank you,

thank you so much for having me on. And then and Yeah, and if anybody wants to know anything, please get in touch and you know and point other people towards this stuff, because it is really life changing stuff, even if you just understand the whys. Even if you go, okay, this person at work? Who does my head in because they get crossed? Because open the window? Does it because they don't feel safe in the world. It changes how you view them. You know, this kid who kicks the back of my chair all day, every day and does my head in? Because you can't sit still. It changes. You know, it's a physiological, there's a physiological issue there.

Can you imagine what a nicer world we'd live in? If people didn't look at it that way? Yeah,

yeah, exactly. We'll be just be a bit kinder to each other.