The IEP Process and Being Your Child’s Advocate with Beth Liesenfeld

Welcome to Parenting that Kid. My name is Ashley Tolliver. As a mom of twins, one being a highly sensitive child who responds to the world in a non traditional and sometimes challenging way. I understand the desire to find the golden answer. Maybe there is no golden answer. But there are resources, tips and tricks we can all use to help us make this uniquely normal parenting journey a little more fun. This podcast is a roadmap to parenting that kid, for myself and other parents. If recording my journey as I seek a clear starting point, community and effort to normalize what sometimes feels abnormal, supports at least one parent, then my time is not wasted. And hey, if it doesn't, well, there's documented proof that moms deserve a glass of wine. Cheers.

All right. Well, thank you, Beth, for joining me today, I am really excited to have you on a personal note because of my own children, but on a note as a friend to other parents who are trying to figure out how to walk their child through IEP or not walk their child through it, and maybe they don't need it, or they, they don't even know they need it right like that. As we mentioned, this is a complicated system. And it can be super intimidating, when you're brand new, and to learn that your child might need this track. So I'm really excited to have you on. And I want you to share about yourself, introduce yourself, what do you do? And yeah, give us your lowdown all this

awesome. Well, thank you so much for having me. I just love coming on and talking directly to you parents because it just, it's so amazing. And like you said, it's such a complicated system. So to talk about your situation, or parents in your particular situation is just so much easier than giving a blanket statement. So examples are really nice. So I'm that leaves and felt. I'm an occupational therapist, I have experienced working in the Birth to Three system, as well as in schools, outpatient therapy clinics, and pushing into homes for even school aged kids to work on home goals as well. So I started, you know, in early intervention, and then I transitioned into schools later, I always knew I wanted to be in schools, I really love working in the schools. But what happened was, as I was going through, and, you know, our district to the last one that I worked in, it doubled in size in like five years. And so what I got to see was IEPs, from all over the country, because everybody was moving to this particular district. Because the services were so good, we had a really good reputation. And even IEPs from neighboring districts were so different than ours, when I also saw it and there was one particular week where I was sitting in seven IEP meetings that week, because I was in about 80 per year when I was working in the schools. And I was in like my fourth one that week. And it was with mostly the same case managers, the same team, every single IEP meeting had a different emotional feel to it. And every single meeting had a different quality of plan that they came out with. And I was like what is going on, this is the exact same team, what is different and it comes down to the parent. So I really started noticing the parents who kind of familiarize themselves with the system, they didn't have to know everything. But when they knew a little bit about the system, what they could or couldn't do, kept in contact with the team did a couple other things. They got a much better IEP plan and just support and their kids learned better when they were in school. And so I I founded the IEP lab, I have the parent IEP lab podcast as well. And it is a place where I share the insider secrets of how the system actually works. What is reasonable to ask for? What are the key things that parents miss four opportunities for advocacy to really get a good plan? Because I don't believe that parents should have to fight or be confused through this process. This is ridiculous. And I think we all know that the the school system in general needs a revamp the IEP system works, I have seen it work, but we need to educate parents on how to work the system and work within that system. So they don't feel like they're fighting all the time.

Yeah, absolutely. Fighting is the word that's it's just awful, you should never have to fight for your child. But the system is set up so flawed, that we find ourselves doing that. And there are parents who are just, I'm going to bat for my kid and they will study and research and call and communicate. And there are other ones that are so lost or they don't even know because the resources might not be in their community or they just have nowhere to begin. And so I think having somebody like you who specializes in the system, the whole system, the process, so a parent doesn't go well. Thanks. That was great. But now what is so helpful I can tell you as a mom with a child who we are blessed to go to private school that doesn't require an IEP and they just really help her but we are going through the public school system to get the diagnosis because that's our taxes paid for it. So I'm like great we're gonna use that and so I have to do a little bit of this only for their their rules. When I as a mom like lost completely lost me the public school system is very overwhelming to me because I'm not in it and then adding that I thought, oh my goodness, how can parents do this? If they don't feel like they're the type of parent that can go and figure it out? So I really thank you for having created something that walks parents through, like holds their hands, because sometimes it's really intimidating. And it's already, you know, you're already struggling in the world because your child needs you to have needs an IEP, right? Not the other stuff that you're struggling with. You

don't need yes

card. Can I ask you if you were meeting with somebody for the very first time and all they said was I know my child needs help? That was it. They didn't start what to do, who to contact? What would be your first tip advice? Because I think that's where parents start, where do I go? I just know my child needs hell.

Yeah, so I think really, a parent having a list of the specific challenges that you think they're having is exactly the place to start. Because before you reach out to anybody else, they're gonna say, Well, what are you concerned with. And that is the number one place for parents to get overwhelmed from the get go. And you already think, oh, my gosh, I don't know anything. But you do know your kid. And you do know what you're hearing back from the school, right, you have some sort of indication of what's going on. Because either teachers are mentioning something to you, principals are mentioning something to you, or your kid is coming home, like upset or not okay, or they're melting down, or something. So, I would encourage parents to really just like, find 10 minutes of calm if you can, and just list down what your concerns are, what you're seeing, what are you concerned about? And then you can start to reach out to the school, you can say, okay, like, these are my concerns and outline that I would suggest, you know, it depends on the situation, of course, but your principal is a really good place to start. As far as, hey, they're not doing okay. Or hey, these aren't Melissa, my concerns, where can we go from here, the two tracks to get either accommodations, which is a five before and accommodations are ways to change the environment or their learning, or how the learning as presented like just changes in kind of the presentation of things, extra breaks, things like that. That's a 504. And then an IEP adds that layer of services. So you're saying in an IEP, that they actually have a disability, it's interfering with learning, we need to get not only those accommodations, because those are included, but we need an extra layer of services, we need to track goals as well. So that's a very, very big overview of those two things, but you kind of have to familiar yourself with like, what is possible, the school might from then say, Okay, I see these concerns, they might say, hey, we need to go ahead and evaluate for an IEP. Or they might say, hey, let's try a couple of things, and maybe put them into a system where they get a little bit of extra supports. Sometimes that's called MTSS. Sometimes it's called RTI. And so that's like, normally, it's even either the teacher brings up concerns, or the parent does. And then they just kind of problem solve it like, hey, if we do this, does this help pay if we give a little bit of support here, does this help? And so it's not like a legally protected plan. But it might be helpful for you to start there and just say, okay, like, Can we do the minimum? Can we just give them this little bump of support over here? And does that fix it? Right? Instead of getting this like, huge system and getting all into this? Very confusing? Yeah, you know, system and just going overboard? Like, maybe you feel like you can start small and that's okay.

Okay, right. And that's okay. One step at a time, for sure. Yes. And if that doesn't work, there's always room for growth. Wow, okay. That's wonderful. So as a parent, if that doesn't work, right, they've tried the one step. Maybe it's extra time or, you know, I don't know, we every child is very different. Yeah. So if that doesn't work, and it's time to come up with Plan B, or the next step, do you? Do you support in that? And then how does that look for parents? Is is a team effort? Now with everybody in school? Is this the parent contacting a doctor over here and a specialist over here? And how does that all look? Because that can feel overwhelming when you what's the next big thing?

Yeah. I mean, again, it depends on how serious you think this issue is. And I think we discount parents intuition in, hey, is this a little problem is this like, man, we need support. Now we're having trouble at home, we're having trouble at school. We're having trouble everywhere, and I don't know what to do to support them. Then you can go as expensive as you want and bring in doctors and bring in outside evaluations. But I would say after that, if you really want them evaluated, which is just them going through a bunch of testing to investigate what is kind of the areas of concern and the strengths as well. And does this suorin Like a disability and services? Or does it want some extra supports in some other way. So the way that a parent can initiate that evaluation process is in writing as best because this is a legal process. And that's why it's so confusing. And that's why there's so many acronyms and huge words, because it's a legal process. But the next step is to, in writing request an evaluation for special education. And that typically goes to the principal, and it typically goes to the special education teacher, if you don't know who those people are, they're probably listed on your district's website, right? Or you can go in the secretary of the school is a wealth of information, they're so helpful, you can ask for their email addresses from there, oh, hey, how Who should I send this to? They might even know. And I would send that in. Now, the tricky thing is that the school doesn't have to give you that evaluation. They have, they have 10 days to respond. That's typical. I shouldn't say that across the board. But typically, they have 10 days to respond. And they can say, No, we don't think that the challenges are enough to warrant an evaluation. The other thing to, to really understand about schools in I think we really realize this with a standardized testing thing is that they love their tests. And they love their data. And they love the information that they already have gathered. So what they do is they get that parent request in writing, hopefully. And then they will look at their own data, they'll talk to the general education teacher and see how they're doing, they will look at test scores, they will interview whoever is like close to the child, maybe they switch halfway through the day to go to another class. And they'll talk to everybody who's kind of involved with that child. And they'll say, hey, what do you think that they have a disability? Hey, what are you already doing? Is that working or not? And they will determine if they want to go ahead and evaluate for special education, or

you as a parent do not get the right to just say, I want my child evaluated, and therefore they are. Yes. Also has to agree that that is where you're at now.

Yes, yeah. So you do have the right to request, right. And you should request if you feel like that's warranted. But yeah, they don't have to, I would say, most of the time they do. There are some districts that are, you know, really against evaluating, and they just get those requests all the time. And so they really look at it to make sure that it's warranted. But I would say most of the time, they're saying, oh, yeah, this child has been struggling for a while, let's go ahead and evaluate. Or, if they're denying it, you can kind of go up the chain of command, which is typically the special education coordinator or directors over them. And you can say, again, these are the lists of my concerns. Because going back to that list that you made in the beginning, even in your letter to request that evaluation, instead of just saying, I want a full evaluation, which so many parents do, the team doesn't really know what you're concerned about. And so if you're saying, I'm really concerned, because they seem like they're doing well in school, and then they're coming home and melting down. That's information the school doesn't have. So they need to investigate what's happening. So again, go back to your list of concerns, put that in your letter to request evaluation. And then if you're getting some pushback, go up the ladder, and each advocacy, you know, opportunity that you have go back to that list of challenges, because the worst thing is just to say like I'm a concerned parent, I have these rights, but not be able to back it up and really say, hey, they're struggling in this way. Because the more you pull your child into the center of those conversations, the further you're gonna get.

Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's so smart. I love the idea. Just keep that list. That is your, your base for all right. So what happens once you go up the chain of commands or or they approve it? So let's say yes, now you've been approved for this evaluation? What is that look like on the child side, and the ones that look like for the parents, because I always feel like whenever that my kids are involved something else and I'm digging through paperwork, or I'm having to contact, Ryan's on his gather your information that you feel like I probably could have organized that better.

Oh my gosh, that's, that's all of us way too much paperwork. And it is. And it is a lot of paperwork. And from the parents side, it feels like it's taking forever, because they have 60 days to do it. And that's such a long time. So what happens is they will send a paper home for you as the parent to sign. And that is a permission to test that you have to give permission for them to be able to test, but they will mark the areas that they're going to look at. And if you see anything missing, like oh, hey, I stated that I had this concern, and it's not getting tested, then that's another opportunity that gets missed, for people to say, Oh, wait, like you're not looking at social emotional skills. And I have concerns in that area. So you can talk with the case manager which will be on that paperwork, you'll say, Oh, it'll be returned to so and so and that's your contact person, right if you have any questions and from their from your child, they will get probably pulled out of class a couple of times. Hopefully, they are spreading that out. And it's not in one day, right. But they are doing things like pulling them out for whatever tests they need to do. So if a speech language pathologist is testing them, they'll pull them into the speech room. And if a school psychologist is doing, you know, cognitive evaluation, they'll pull them into their room, they will get to know your kid, and just get to know what they like, what they don't like, what's hard about school, but also do this, like standardized kind of drill type testing with them. And they will also do not all the time, but hopefully, they will do an observation of your child in the classroom and just see, how are they doing? Do they look stressed? Are they already using some compensation measures to help themselves attend or whatever their challenges are? And they'll kind of compile that into a huge evaluation report. So from the parent side, yes, you might have some things to fill out, especially if you have the school psychologists involved, you're gonna have like, questionnaires that are 187 questions long, and you're gonna feel like it's forever. But once you get like that batch of testing done on your site, it just feels like you're waiting for forever, until you figure out when the meeting is that you're going over

period and know that that's normal. Yes. Forget your child, it's just Yes. waiting period. Okay, that's always helpful to hear. Yes, for

sure. And then after that, they will set a time to meet to do an evaluation report kind of review with you, you do have the right to see that evaluation report before you have the meeting. And make sure that you request that if you don't feel like it's going to come home, you know, like four days before the meeting is a pretty good time to see that. And again, go back to that list of challenges and concerns that you had in the beginning, make sure that they're all addressed in the evaluation report. And then when you come to the meeting, you some districts are really good about kind of going over the evaluation report, because, again, is a lot of numbers that are hard to understand, it's a lot of really big words that you don't really know how that's affecting your child as far as learning goes. But be prepared to ask any questions that you have, if that means that you take notes on the evaluation report, that's awesome. But I find that a lot of parents are just overwhelmed at this system and be like, I didn't even try to read it. Because it's so overwhelming. Try to try to at least look at it to know what's in there. So that when you when you meet with them, you can ask any questions that do come up, and it's okay if you don't have any to. And then they'll go through the checklist of eligibility. So these are third, there's 13 categories of eligibility set out by federal law. Okay. Each state has different requirements for what it takes for a child to qualify for services under that. So like I'm in Colorado, State of Colorado actually has the checklist up online. It's awesome. So, yeah, so if you know, your kid has, you know, maybe an outside diagnosis of ADHD already, you can go on Colorado's website and say, okay, like ADHD, most of the time follows under Other health impairment, or Oh, h i category. And you can pull up that checklist and see what are they looking for. And you can kind of like, familiarize yourself with it, even if you don't fully understand it. And you can be like, Oh, okay, this is what they're gonna talk about. For some parents, they don't even know what category they might qualify under. So that's kind of hard. But I mean, if you there are resources out there to say like, Oh, I think my kid has autism, like, what would they qualify under, like, you can kind of, you can look for those resources. And I feel like you can have a good idea of what they're going to qualify under or what they're going to be considered. And then, and then at that meeting, we'll go through that checklist with you for eligibility. And at the end of that checklist, they either qualify, or they don't qualify. And so if they don't qualify, then you might get the, hey, they might benefit from accommodations through a 504 instead of the services, and they might direct you to another person who manages the fiber fours. Or they might say, Nope, they're not eligible. We also don't think of 504 is really appropriate, or sometimes they won't even mention it. So even your listeners who are listening to this podcast, are going to know about a five before and say, Oh, if they aren't eligible for an IEP, how about a 504? And an opportunity to advocate there for or some level of support there? And then if they do qualify, then you get into the IEP process after that. Okay.

Wow, that's so detailed. Thank you for sharing all that. Because that really lays out step by step by step on how to get all this rolling. Do you have to bring a diagnosis or I should say, if you have one, is it best to bring the diagnosis from your pediatrician and that's I call it whoever your child might have seen out of school.

Yeah, it's super helpful for anything that you have If you're you don't even have to have a diagnosis to be an outpatient speech therapy or OT, and you can bring in, you know, a letter, or maybe they have a summary of their notes. Maybe you have a diagnosis. Yeah, it's super, super helpful. And I, I feel like that weighs it a little bit more to okay, they're getting outside services for this, they're struggling in the home environment. They might need it here, too. I just, it all depends on that educational component. But yes, the more paperwork that you have, and you can bring to the team, the better for sure.

Okay. That's wonderful. Yeah, it does kind of support what you're, you're seeing in your child and trying to work on and you would like that to happen eight hours, nine hours or at school a day kind of thing? Yeah. So what happens in now that you've, your child is qualified and support is needed? What goes, what happens, then? How do they figure out exactly your child might need? And how does that get in place so that your kid can experience the benefits that?

Absolutely, so it all goes back to that evaluation report, because there will be a summary at the bottom of that, that says they're struggling in this area, right. So the eligibility, like category, oftentimes doesn't even matter. It just matters if they qualify or not, to be honest, but that evaluation report is really the source of information to build the IEP. So if I can just go through like the four main sections of the IEP real fast, there are lots many sections in the IEP, but these are like the main four. So the first one is the present levels of function. And that is where like, a lot of teams will take the evaluation report summary, just copy and paste it and put it into the president levels, because that is their strengths. That is their challenges. That is how they're looking in the classroom. So that observation data, right, you have to have and this is why I say like, when that evaluation report comes home, make sure that your list of what you're advocating for, or like the challenges that you're seeing is in that evaluation report, because that's gets copied and pasted into the IEP. And if those you know, say, they're really struggling with social emotional skills, or they're melting down, if that isn't in the president level section of that IEP, there's no way that they're going to write a goal for it, it has to start at the top, it's like a funnel, you want all of the information possible to go in the top in the large part of the funnel, so that it can be pulled down into goals, accommodations and services later. So just make sure when you read the present levels, it should read like somebody could pick up that IEP and know your kid, right, which happens, special education, teachers leave, teachers leave general education teachers are different, like you want it to look like your kid. And I think so many people just like kind of trust the people that they're working with, because they might have an amazing team. And then when those people leave, you're like, wait, oh, wait. But it's not in writing. So again, we go process writing. The next really important goal. The next really important section is the goal areas. And again, those get pulled down from the present levels of function. So if you're saying, okay, they qualified under a specific learning disability, maybe they have dyslexia, then you're saying, Okay, there's probably going to be a reading goal, right. And every district kind of has different guidelines for how those goals are written. But you just want to make sure that you as the parent understand what it means, like, if you sat down at the table, or if they're doing homework, or if you're doing like, a fun project with them, you can really see that goal. And if you wanted to measure it yourself, you could, you should be able to understand it. And if you can't understand it, then you need to ask some questions about well, what is this mean? What does this mean? And the probably the most? The hardest thing about goals is being vague, right? So a lot of times, even in preschool, they'll have a goal that says with embedded concepts, they'll be able to answer questions with embedded concepts. And I'm like, I don't know what embedded concepts is. That's the thing like, go over and get the blue block and bring it here. Well, blue is the embedded concept. So if there's something vague in that goal that you don't understand, make sure that you're asking that and you're saying, I don't know what that is, right? As an OT, I don't know a lot of like the jargon from teachers either. So yeah, a lot of questions. The next part is accommodations. And we talked about these a little bit. These are the ways that learning can be presented to your child differently. These are things like they can take tests in a small group setting, or maybe they have tests read to them, or maybe they get extra movement breaks. Both are in this is really hard for parents because it's endless. You can ask for anything on here pretty much. And so it's hard for parents to really say okay, my kid has ADHD. What accommodations should I ask for? Every kid with ADHD is so different, like how do you know But you know, you know the things that you already give your child when you're at home, right? When you're teaching them something else? What do you do? Do you repeat it a lot of times? Do you give them? Like a an example? First? Do you do it for them? Do you demonstrate those are all things that can be put into that IEP? Because you already know those things, you probably don't realize that they are because you just set up your household that way, because you know that they need it. Right?

You guys. Yeah. Yeah. And

then the last part that I'm going to talk about today is just services. And services, you know, are from special education, teachers, occupational therapists, speech therapists, physical therapists, if you have a child that has hearing loss, there is a teacher for the deaf and hard of hearing. So these are the people that are going to make sure that your child makes progress on the goals. Sometimes, and a lot of times, people in the schools overlap with each other. So when I was first in the schools, I'd be like, Oh, well, I can serve that attention goal, I can serve that executive functioning goal. But I can do that handwriting goal, and I can do this goal. But the thing is that certain people on your team, and this is just like a team thing. Sometimes a special education teacher is really, really educated in sensory integration techniques, you know, or, or giving breaks, or they know what works for their kids. And a lot of times they are with their kids a lot more. Because people like me that OT, I was serving 10 schools at once, I wasn't in the same building every day. So you know, a lot of parents come in, and they're like, my kid needs more OT, or my kid needs this service. Really pay attention to who is really going to get your kids the results. And it might not even matter what technically what that service actually is. You just want to make sure that that person is competent, to give your kid the skills that they need so they can learn, because that's why we're here. Right? Right.

Okay, wow, those are, those are amazing. And those are I love that because those are step by step. And I can see how they all support the child differently, if that makes any sense, right? But they got that well, that like, well rounded look over that over the child. So that's really helpful. And you said, there's a whole bunch those are just like the main four that that people look at, or the school starts to look at and work on. Okay, yes. So yeah. Okay, so now the child has gone through the process, they figured all of that out. And things are on paper in place. What does it look like to get it going to actually start things? And how long does this take and when is the reevaluation. And, I mean, I guess parents get excited when it happens. But then you got man, what's what, what should I do next? Kind of? Uh huh.

Yeah, oh, my gosh, and it's so much stress to go through that meeting and meet all these people and feel like you're on one side of the table, and everybody else is on the other side of the table. So yeah, there definitely is kind of a stress point to get to the meeting. And then after the meeting, it's kind of like, okay, what do I do now. So this is, this is what I call the second phase to the IEP cycle, which is the implementation phase. And this is when you become the school's accountability partner in a nice way. So to get all of this in place, really, and honestly, legally, they are supposed to get that plan in place, the day after that IEP is put into place. Wow. Now, you know, people have schedules, they need to like work your kid into their schedule. So it might take a week to start services. But for the most part, they're starting things immediately. And to be honest, if they already knew that they were probably going to qualify, even though they're not technically allowed to say that. They're probably making ready to accept your kid and get them into their scheduled before that anyway. So really, they're supposed to start pulling your kids, if they get outside services, they'll start pulling your kids within a week. But it definitely takes a couple of sessions. Like if somebody is seeing your kid, once a week, it takes a couple of weeks for them to even like get to know them, you know, set up the stage and get some baseline levels before they really start working on things. So I always tell parents, like wait, you know, four to six weeks. Of course, that always depends on if there's a day off in there somewhere. Or if there's a holiday break, then it just interrupts the whole cycle. And you have to start all over again. But, but four to six weeks, and you can be able to tell if your child is is starting to make progress starting to get acclimated to that new schedule. If you were seeing some behavior concerns at home, you want to see those get a little bit better, right? It's not going to be an immediate fix. It's not going to be this like amazing, you know, change the whole school life for your kid sometimes. Sometimes it's just like a slow build. But if you get any hints that things aren't being implemented, and a big one is those accommodations. If you're like me and did you get extended time on that that test, and your child is kind of giving you the indication that they didn't, or they don't know what you're talking about, then it's time to start like checking in. And hopefully, you're having some sort of regular communication with whoever it is on your school's IEP team. Sometimes that looks like you're using an app like ClassDojo or seesaw, that you can just basically like text back and forth. Or you can do something like a back and forth book where you write in a book, and that goes home in your child's backpack, and then it comes back so that you both are writing back and forth. I've even seen people do like a Google doc back and forth. And that's cool, too. Yeah. But sometimes, like, you need to be able to ask those questions of, hey, is this accommodation working? Is this getting implemented? And if you're not seeing improvement, then it's time to, you know, stop in it parent teacher conferences, or you always have the right to call another IEP meeting as well. I wouldn't say you want to do that until it's like three months in a pretty consistent implementation of the plan. And then it's like, hey, is this plan working? Or do we need to change it kind of attitude, it's not like you guys aren't doing your job, right? kind of come in there with them, giving them the benefit of the doubt and your kid the benefit of doubt, and saying, I don't know if this plan is working like is it like, let's kind of look at this together. And so you can do that as well. So that's, you know, again, kind of a waiting game. But hopefully, like the major stress of getting them qualified is over. And now you're just going to tweak the program. This is why my business is called the IEP lab. Because every single team is different. Every kid is different. Every parent is different. So you just have to try and see what works for your kid. And it might take a bit to get that implemented. Oh, and then you asked when it actually gets updated? So let me go into that for a second. Reevaluate. Yeah, yeah. So it makes working? Yes, absolutely. So this, again, is built into the law, that the IEP itself has to be updated every calendar year. Okay. Okay. And then they get re evaluated every three years. Oh, wow. So a lot of kids with, you know, maybe they're autistic, or maybe they have ADHD,

parents get a little bit scared that come through yours are not going to qualify again. Right. So you start, you start that whole system all over again, with like, Hey, here's, here's the challenges. This is what's working from the plan. And this is what isn't, and so you still have opportunities to advocate. But yeah, that that system works every year, that plan is updated. So the present levels get updated with new data, even though you don't have an evaluation. And you should be able to request a draft IEP before you have that meeting. So they should have be able to pull in some goals, pulling some data in the present level so that you can look after it. You can look over at a couple days before that meeting happens and say, oh, okay, like, I still have concerns in this area, it looks like you're making progress here. This is really cool. Okay, I'm going to ask for this and this at the meeting, and you can go from there. So most parents feel like the IEP meetings, you know, you know, the second one, the third one, are much easier, because they expect they know the process. But if a parent has a bad experience in one of those IEP meetings, and it makes it stressful all over again. So just again, knowing your kid, knowing what how they're doing, getting that draft IEP ahead of time, just helps kind of calm those nerves a little bit and be able to advocate for what your kid needs.

Yeah. Okay, that's really good information. How about when they're going from, like I say, from elementary to middle school and middle school to high school? And then do you just make believe in for college? Is this something that just once you have it, we've every three years, we check, it doesn't matter? What if you're going up to the next grade, or next level? Or you're going to repeat all of this again, you're correct.

So every every three years, that doesn't really matter. So you know, somebody could come into the process from the Birth to Three process. And so they're getting re evaluated at three, and then at six, and then nine. But if you have a kid that, you know, didn't really start to have learning challenges until later than they might have gotten an IP at 10. So then they have, you know, reevaluation at 10 1316 You know, so no, it doesn't really matter. As far as eligibility criteria when you move up, but it does really change a lot when you go from elementary school into middle school. Because middle schools are typically you're changing classes, you you have a lot of different teachers, all of a sudden you need to think about well, what is my school even offer because sometimes they have like a co taught class, which is pretty cool, where a special education teacher and a general education teacher share the classroom together. Sometimes they pull them into like a totally separate classroom. So that is like a new set of challenges to go through that transition from elementary to middle I feel like is the biggest One because you have that relationship with your general education teacher, and you know who that person is, and you have really good contact with them. And they're with him all day. And then you go to wow, okay, they're expected to have all these skills to know where they're going to have time management to know what their homework is like. It's a lot. So they actually might need more executive functioning support in that transition. Right?

Yeah, yeah, I can see that. Right. Everything shifts there, but that high school does feel very similar. You're still moving class to class and exactly, that it is similar flow, kind of Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

How do you take that to college, then? Or is there no such thing, and it's only five. But for us in college, where you're just you? I'm or whatever.

I think that really depends on the college. Okay, there, there are counselors that in take that IEP, and it's really cool, actually, that you get to have a lot of input, especially in those high school years, to really figure out what is working for them and what, what isn't, right. So you really want to make sure that IEP is really, really good and really accurate, so that they can take that copy into college, but they get a lot of accommodations. I know, when I was in school, I was a note taker for somebody, I don't know who it was, that was getting accommodations. But really making sure in high school, that your child has like a self advocacy goal, so that they know what their accommodations are, and they know how to ask for them. That's probably the most important thing over everything. Because when they go to school, they need to know that they have that IEP, they need to know what their accommodations are, they need to be able to ask because college professors assume that you're going to ask them, if you need anything, they're not going to hold your hand really

call and ask to tell them. Yeah, yeah.

Yep. And I know that there are special programs to like, in Colorado, we have a really cool goal program. So it's even with people with intellectual disabilities, that they come to college and do a couple years. And they're prepared for a career after that. So I do think that they bring in the IEP, whether they get services or not, that's kind of out of my realm of expertise. I don't know that. But it's a good thing to ask, when you're starting to tour colleges and starting to research like, do they have these services baked in to the curriculum? Do they have them available? Because they know that some colleges do. Okay.

After evaluation, is that now that the IEP sticks with the child even if they feel like everything's going great? Or do you no longer need an IEP after a certain amount of time, and you see what your child has achieved? Yes, sometimes

you you don't need one anymore. And that's really kind of cool. So what happens is either at the next evaluation, so every three years, you have an evaluation, sometimes they'll come back with me, and we really can't find anything that they need anymore. This is kind of cool. But they might say, but they still need these accommodations. And so you might get transferred to a 504 to keep those accommodations. But hopefully, they've had some teaching as far as like, how to ask for those and how to know what they're entitled to through that 504 At that point. So yeah, sometimes they age out. And then sometimes you'll have, especially if your child is on qualified through speech and language impairment, and they're only getting speech, a lot of times they will age out from that. So if they're not really having any like true learning disability, it doesn't turn it into a reading disability or anything like that. A lot of times there will come a point where they're like, yeah, when when I pull them from general education, because that's always a cost, right to have services. When I'm pulling them from class and sitting. I'm not really knowing what I'm doing for them anymore. And that's actually a good thing. That's just showing everybody that they don't need those services anymore. And so they Yeah, exactly. So they might ask to reevaluate a little bit early. Like maybe it's after two years. And they might say, yeah, just there's, they're doing well, and you'll have a new set of scores to look over before that decision is made to

Okay. Okay, wonderful. So can you share about exactly what your role is what you do how you support family, you did a lovely job during the process. Thank you so much. It's way more clear in my head now. I have parents, thank you for that. But can you share how you support and what you specifically do with?

Absolutely, absolutely. So I provide really low cost or no cost resources for parents to understand the process because that's step one. I feel like this is the biggest step. And this is what I'm here to do. So I have a couple of resources. Actually, I have the podcast which I mentioned, which is the parent IEP lab podcast, and I have guests on, and I do solo shows to kind of explain some things as well. And I also have a summit coming up. So I have a virtual Summit. And that is the parent IEP Advocacy Summit that's coming up September 22 to 25th but you can access it afterwards as well. And I'll I'll give you the link for that so you can share that. And then I have my The ultimate parent IEP prep course. And this is an online course where you can go through what the system is, the first module is all about the system and going into those sections of the IEP so that you understand what it means. And then we talk about advocacy strategies, we talk about how to determine your priorities. If you feel like my child needs everything, have you boiled that down to just a couple of things that you're focusing on for this year, we go through that three step process together as well. And I offer group coaching through that, too, so that you can ask questions for your specific situation. So you can find all of this information at my website, which is the IEP lab.com

Oh, my gosh, what an amazing service you've created because somebody just to have somebody there who knows the system is invaluable. I mean, it's just amazing when you got to make a walk with you along the path. Absolutely. Yeah. It's a lot of fun. Wow. Yeah. That's my other question, though. Because you're in Colorado, I'm in Texas. Data is different. You mentioned that earlier on that there are differences. Are you able to work with people from all different states? spectrum of things,

or Yes, yes, exactly. So I focused really on breaking down IDE, a law. And also looking in, that's the federal law. And also just looking at what I know about other districts across the country. So you know, humans and teams are the same across all states. And that's why I have things like my free Facebook group, too. Because when we talk about eligibility, because I have a podcast series right now, where we're going through every eligibility category, and it's like, okay, come into the free Facebook group so that we can get you your state's eligibility criteria, or we can connect you with another parent who's in your same state. So we can talk about that. So I am the broadest resource to come to, and then I connect you with all sorts of different things in your own state as well.

Perfect. That's perfect. What's your on your free group called?

It is just called the parent IEP advocacy in insiders. Lab insiders. Yeah, I can give you that link to Yeah, absolutely.

Please do. Because I think that's such a great resource, as well as meeting somebody in your state who said, Oh, I've been there done that, or Yeah, that was tricky for us. And here's how I got or whatever. That's so good. Wow. Oh, my gosh, thank you so much information. Thank you. Oh, my gosh, you clarify it for me even just talking about the IEP versus 504? How they don't always go hand in hand? Well, they do. But you don't necessarily need to have both. I think parents assume if you've got one, you're gonna have to have the other. And you're taking half of two things. And so it's really nice to know that, yes, but no, that's not for every child, and that you have to obviously, your know, your child, and each child is different. So that's really helpful.

Absolutely, yeah, the only time that I've seen somebody have a 504. And an IEP is they had diabetes. So they had a common, they had accommodations in the FIBA for for the diabetes, but they didn't really feel like diabetes was the thing that was keeping her from learning. So she had an IEP that was focusing on her learning issues, or her learning challenges, and then she had a 504 for all the things she needed for her diabetes. Other. Otherwise, if it's the same set of challenges, you can just have an IEP, and that's all inclusive, and it includes those accommodations as well.

That's really well, that's a great explanation right there. Because that makes logical sense that once medical, and you need to work with that throughout the day, and that's your learning ability. It's just working through that. Yep. Wow. Anything else that you feel like? I know, I asked a lot of questions, but you're so good. Anything else that you feel like you needed to respond to or share that I might not have asked a question about? Um,

did you want some action steps? Oh, people are in the waiting. Okay.

I was gonna ask you before tools and resources and then some steps for people to do right now. Okay. Okay. Yeah, let's get there.

Okay, awesome. So I think if you are kind of starting at the beginning, and you're just seeing your child struggle, and you've just started noticing some things, I think the first thing to do is just develop a relationship with the person, whether that's the general education teacher, whoever is seeing them the most during school, developing relationship looks like you're checking in, you're sending them an email, you're saying, Hey, I've noticed that they're starting to struggle. Have you noticed this too, and just kind of opening that dialogue with that person so that they start noticing things about your kid, and they might be more apt to try to try some things to help them. In the meantime, you know, if you're kind of waiting for an evaluation to start, or if you haven't even gotten there yet, this person now has your kid on their radar. And that's a good thing, right? Yeah. The second thing is to ask for a communication strategy. So if you feel like you don't have a teacher who communicates with you, well, then you can ask them, Hey, I'm really wanting some more information. I'm kind of struggling with really knowing what's happening in the classroom. Can we like what do you like to communicate? You know, do you like email? Do you want me to pop in when I pick up, you know, kind of ask them what their preferred communication strategy is. And you can try your best if you can, to accommodate that into your schedule so that you can get some more information from the school as well. Okay? The other thing is just ask what you can do at home. You know, a lot of teachers are so accommodating and so amazing that if you ask them help me, and I really would like to help them, is there anything I can do at home, they will tell you, and they will be very grateful. And they will know that you're involved in your paying attention. So just asking about what strategies they're using. Sometimes they're not even noticing what they're doing for your kid until you ask, and then they think about it. And they're like, oh, yeah, we're doing this in class. And that really seems to help, it might take a couple days. But sometimes they can tell you what to do at home to help too. And then the last one is just, if you, you know, you mentioned an outside evaluation. And if you want to explore that you absolutely can. So school psychologists do kind of learning evaluations. And of course, you can get a medical evaluation by going to a doctor, you know, if you need to be referred to more of a behavioral pediatrician that does more diagnosing and things you might need to do that, too. Just know that a lot of school, like a lot of outside psychologists that do that diagnosing, they have a really long waiting list. So if you're feeling like you want to explore that, and you want an outside diagnosis that connects you to a lot of resources outside of school, as well, that has a lot of benefits to it, then just know that you can explore that. And a lot of times they have a really long waiting list. So sometimes your pediatrician can help you know, if you're looking for an ADHD, diagnosis or exploring if that's really what's, what's a barrier to your kids learning, a lot of times they can do that, or they can refer you to kind of a developmental pediatrician as well to help. So if you're feeling like that's the route you want to eventually go, sometimes their waiting lists are like a year long. So definitely get on that list if you can, at the

same time as the school evaluating your child, because why wait to get the deal,

you can do it at the same time. But you definitely want to let the school know that you're doing it at the same time. Because if the school is doing some of the same tests that the outside person is doing, then those scores aren't valid anymore, because they don't know which one went first. And then your kid is going through the same thing twice, which nobody wants to read their kid do as well. And then you know, if you have some some checklists that you're doing as the parent, then you don't have, you don't have to do those twice. So you can get on the list and you can do them at the same time. Just let the school know and let the outside evaluator know that you're going through those processes at the same time. And then you can just share information between the two and it makes it a lot easier for everybody.

Right, that makes sense that makes wonderful. Well, this is great that Thank you. Thank you. I'm gonna link all of this because you had websites and you have your Summit. Do you have a link yet created for that summit? So that if we, when this airs, people can start signing up silly?

Yeah, you can you can go to the IAP lab.com/summit. And that won't be up by the time this airs. But I can send you that too.

Okay, yeah. So yeah, all of this will be in there. Because I think this is super helpful. And I love the idea that you have a support Facebook group for people to reach out to other people who might also be going through the same path or people who feel like experts, because they've gone through and I go, we've been there done that.

Yes. Yes,

that mom or that dad? Like, Oh, thank goodness, somebody else? Yes.

Yeah, I really find when parents get into, you know, if their kid had an IEP from the beginning, when they get into middle school after that transition, they feel like they got it. So it's like, takes about five years to feel like you really have a good thing going. And then, you know, it depends on the district and the situation if they're having more issues or not. But most of the time, middle school, middle school, parents don't really need me anymore. But we do have a couple in the group that are like, Hey, did you know about this resource? And I'm like, I didn't even know about that resource. So it's so nice to happen there.

Yeah. Well, that's also nice to know that you that people feel confident by that point that they don't need that handheld anymore, which is lovely at the beginning. But the system flushes itself out to where it feels more free. So that's really good that you're not Yeah, the entire time your child's on this track.

Yes, the hope is, you know, the first couple years is when you come to me and you kind of get your bearings and you get an effective IEP plan set up from the beginning. Because there's so many parents that get, you know, four years down the road, and they're like, I didn't even know that was an option. And that's what we don't want, right? That's what we absolutely don't want. So yeah, I'm a resource for those parents that are right at the beginning, or they want to change some things and they don't know how to do it. And then there's other people who are just more more advanced. where you can become an advocate for other families too, but I don't do that training. Yeah, yeah. Amazing.

Well, thank you both so much for joining me today.

Thank you so much for having me.