A Digital Marketing Wake Up Call - REPLAY - | RR270

Hi, everyone, and welcome to the relationships

rule podcast. I'm your host, Janice Porter. And my special

guest this week is Bill Troy. Welcome to the show, Bill. So

thank you. So I've had the privilege and pleasure of

interviewing Bill's co founder in his company and wife, Kim, on

my podcast just recently, and I hadn't met Bill before. And I

started looking into what he was all about, and decided that I

needed to talk to him too. And he kindly offered or agreed to

come on the podcast, because Bill wrote a book called click

sand. First of all, I love the name. Second of all, the the add

on to that is cliques, and how online marketing will destroy

your business. And the unlikely secret to saving and is that

part of the Yes,

yes. Right. The publisher said you can't just

leave it with a like a negative like that. Exactly. Right. And,

and so just the first thing that I want to say

to you is contrarian, people are contrarian. So talk to me about

that, because I think I'm a bit on your side with this. So do

share, please.

Well, I will contrarian is just challenging

the status quo. You know, it probably started when I was a

kid probably started, you know, in school, every teacher go,

Wait a minute. Where'd you get that? Right? Can you prove that?

So? I just kind of taking on a persona. Yeah, I just I just

feel like so many people just go along with what everybody says

it's like,

yeah. And so you were that kid that always said,

why? Oh, yeah. Yes. I know, there used to be a kid in my

math class, back in elementary school. And every time the math

teacher said something, she had her hand up. But sir, but Sir,

and I still remember this to this day, because that's exactly

what she was doing. She was challenging everything that you

said. And we were in elementary school. So God knows what she

ended up being but the kind of thing to know. Yeah.

So I was I was not the polite one to raise my

hands. I was just in the back of the room making smart aleck

comments. So same family? Yeah,

yeah, yeah, exactly. So what I what I tell

me about cliques and and you know, what started that book.

And, and I know a little bit, but I want my audience to hear

from you. So the book really started from an

interaction we had with an elderly couple who came to

CIVILUS for marketing help. They had a business, it was an online

business. And they were spending lots of money on online ads, and

they were making sales. And they came to us and said, We really

need that your help to make to make it work to make more money

to make more sales, and we analyze the business, we

realized they were losing money on every sale, they were

spending more to get each sale with the online ads, and they

were making in profit. And they didn't really understand that

they were naive, they've been sold a franchise business was

supposed to be turnkey, was supposed to be their retirement,

they put everything into it. And they couldn't explain to them

that this is a trap, this is a negative thing. You there's no

way out of this, you've been sold a bill of goods. And it was

just really heartbreaking for us to see people sort of fall for a

sales pitch like that, and believe that with all their

heart to need to believe with all their heart, and it's like,

Okay, enough of this, I'm gonna, you know, I wasn't planning to

write a book, but it's like, I'm gonna write a book and tell

people about this. Because there are things about technology is

great. But there are things about and especially the way

it's sold and used, that is very destructive. And a lot of people

don't realize that. And a lot of business owners fall for it and

end up hurting themselves without realizing. So that's

what quicksand is out there to stop.

Yes, it's so true. You say, I know you. I've

heard you say that. You can't when you can't trust online

marketing, because even the online marketers sell face to

face, right?

Well think about that. Yeah, you've never bought

online marketing with online marketing. No, I had actually

one time with a guy who thought I told this anecdote anecdote

before that was VP of Sales for an online marketing company was

a local company selling businesses getting local

businesses on the internet. I said, Well, how you getting

clients, we have ad sales reps calling on every business in

town, like do you hear this? What what you're even saying he

didn't even understand what he was saying. It was He was so

oblivious, thinking he was helping all these clients like

it. So online marketers don't use online marketing. And here's

the here's the funny thing. And it's not just a local agency

like that. If you do go on and you buy you buy AdWords or you

buy whatever and these days the big thing is recruiting so you

sign up for indeed, if your credit card and start getting an

account, guess what you're gonna get, you're gonna get a phone

call from a helpful consultant that those companies you know

what that call titles job is to sell you more to get you to buy

more clicks, more clicks, they're not there to help you

fill the position or make sales, they're there to sell clicks.

And it's going to seem very nice and open and wonderful. But

beware. So yeah, they don't use that they sell with old school

relationships and personal. So

I also I want to ask you about this because I my

experiences with LinkedIn, and I do LinkedIn training, as you

know, and I know that I heard you say on on, may have been

another podcast, that people are not using LinkedIn to increase

intimacy, but to coerce customers. And, and, and and

when they use that third party tool, let's say to help them get

more messages out to more people and connect to more people. It's

quite often it's about selling them something and pitching them

as well. And and so I talk to people all the time about you

know, it's about trying to build a relationship, not sell, sell,

sell. And so how can you do that when you're using a third party

tool or an online tool to make those connections and message

for you? What's your answer to that? What do you say to that?

Well,

it's not the tool, any more than it's paper or

telephone. I mean, you use tools all the time to communicate with

people, I mean, you don't always aren't always face to face. So

you do send people notes and letters and emails and

telephone. So it's not the tool itself, it's how you use the

tool, and who's teaching you how to use the tool. When someone

comes to you, you don't say send as many messages, you can do as

many people as you can, and just 1% of those people don't do that

sort of thing. So you can do that with paper. I mean, one of

the anecdotes in my book is the original spam. The first spam in

the history of the world is the MacDonald the Montgomery Ward

catalog, right. In the late 1800s, people started getting

catalogs in their mailbox that didn't ask for, which was

marketing, in hopes that some small percentage of people would

buy stuff that was the original spam unsolicited marketing

messages, now we get them. So if you're going to do spam, you can

do with any tool, I mean, you can do spam with telephone, you

know, robo calls. So it's not the tool, it's how you use it.

And it's not letting the people who sell the tool who make money

from the more you use the tool, make money from you more money

from you, if you use the tool more tell you how to use the

tool, it's usually about using it better, not more, right.

And you said something else that I absolutely

love, because I teach this as well is, you know, most people

look at the top of somebody's LinkedIn profile, and they never

dig deeper and look. And when I teach people how to create their

profile, I'm always saying add here, add there, do this, add

those little things that make you human that make you unique,

that show who you are, and then the people who are really paying

attention will find those things. And we'll use them in

conversation with you. That's when you know, they're trying to

build a relationship.

Yeah. And one of the things I would add to that, I

always get pushback from people, well, I don't have time to

scroll down. Everyone's thinking, blah, blah, blah. And

you know what the answer to that is, that means you're going

after people that are too small, you need to go after bigger

customers. If you don't have the time to invest in a

relationship, then you're trying to sell something cheap and fast

and quick. And that is not a relationship. That's a

transaction. Right? And most likely your best sales, your

biggest sales ever were from human interaction and

relationships. So go after bigger customers that you can

invest the time. And every company can do that everybody

starts to say, well, we don't, I don't care. If you're a hot dog

vendor on the sidewalk, you can go after bigger customers get a

catering gig, right? corporate events, get it sold to a

corporate event and show up at a corporate party. Everybody can

go after bigger customers where there's the room and their

resources to invest in that relationship, and then use the

tools to do that. So

to me, that sounds like you have to be

creative number one. And also though, you have to have the

confidence to do that.

Yes. I think it's not even just that it's also

sticking to your values. I think there's fear. I'm afraid that if

I don't hit more people today than my competitor, I'm gonna

fall behind. There's a sort of fear of fear of missing out

right home. And that is perpetuated by the people who

sell digital marketing tools, massive marketing tools, and

you've got to find out what's true inside you and go with

that. And that's that's a message I share a lot with CEOs

because what I find is the business owners, let's say

they're a little older and grayer like I am. They're told

that they're out of touch, right? Because they didn't just

graduate from a marketing online marketing class at the community

college last month, and so they don't know the latest and

greatest digital tools. And so you're, you're, you're you don't

get it step out of the way. Let me show you how it's done. It's

like, No, you know, the root values of this company and what

the customer needs. And don't let people push you aside, step

back in and say, Look, this is what we do. This is how we treat

people. And if we're going to use digital tools, it's still

got fit within that we cannot sacrifice that for some, you

know, Mirage, we're going to chase with some perfect keyword.

Yeah, that's so true. So it's, it's also then

about that famous word that I love is wisdom is about those of

us with some wisdom needs to stand in our stand our ground

and, and know and believe that what we're saying still holds

true. And I think it does. And, and it's funny, because I was

talking to a woman yesterday, about the other side of my

business, the relationship marketing tool that I use that

we've talked about. And she said, You know, I send cards to

my grandchildren, my, like, young adult grandchildren, and

my teenage grandchildren, but they never say thank you. She

said, I don't think they've been taught to say thank you. And I

said, first of all, they should be sending you cards and picking

up the phone and talking to you. But secondly, you're probably

right. I mean, in some cases, you know, that add mentality

that, that, you know, we're still busy that we just have to

keep moving, and we forget to teach our children some of these

things today, you know, because we're trying to do so many

things, and keep your head above water, generally speaking, but

that just made me think that's kind of fit with what you were

saying in terms of, you know, stick to your stick to your

ground. And, and, and know that it really, people have to trust

their gut more, I think, I don't know, I've been looking for

somebody to help me with a website. And I just knew when I

talked to this woman, that she was the right person for me. I

didn't know it was the relationship building the

feeling that I was getting, I wasn't getting snowed by I can

do this, this and this, right? So I didn't. So you've worked

with some big companies. In your time, you've worked with brands

like Sony and Disney and Nestle. Do you have an interesting story

from one of those that you can recall that that speaks to this?

Because to the power of relationships and in in

marketing?

Well, I'll tell you, so one of the things I think

it's all confusing in the world these days is what is marketing

or what is sales, I think a lot of people believe marketing is

sales, and the same thing. But I can tell you an interesting

little sales anecdote that relates to the relationship idea

about how I got to work for someone, okay, we we had a

client that was I owned a market research company for about 25

years. And we had done work for various clients, and a VP at one

of those clients was let go was out of work. And so, you know,

if you're going to work, no one wants to talk to you, because

they don't want to try to pitch me for a job. But I've been out

of work myself, when I was in my 20s, I worked for a company that

got bought by another company, and they had their own people.

So we were all getting checks and one meeting like see you're

out of here. So I've been out of work before. And I'm like, so I

reached out to Bruce, I'm like, Hey, what's going on, you got

some free time. But if you want to connect, let's talk and just

catch up, we had not had a lot of time to talk when he was a

client of ours. And so we actually kind of struck up a

little more of a relationship than we had before. And I I

didn't just call him because he was not at work. And I'd been

there myself, didn't think anything about it. And then he

got a job at Sony. And he called me and said, Hey, I'm going to

start at Sony next week, I want to talk to you about something,

okay. And sure enough, he had an idea that he came to me and

said, Can we do that that day? And I said, Yeah, we can

absolutely do that it turned into the biggest client we ever

had. And it was because I called an unemployed guy. So I'm sure

when your marketing agency comes in, they don't say, you know,

call everybody who's unemployed. But I didn't, I call them

because it was a relationship. But that was the kind of thing

that paid off down the road. So that was the beginning of let's

see some new ways to do things. And if you really sort of look

at what drives your business, what kind of relationships drive

your business. And so we actually turn that just to

finish that anecdote. We turned that into a process in our

company, we started watching the trade press, for people that

work at companies that people we knew who were out of work and we

reached out to him, we built a whole package to help them when

they were out of work. Make some introductions in those days.

This was in the 90s, early 2000s helped them build little

personal webpage like you're talking about LinkedIn, we just

help them at that moment when they needed help without any

expectation. We don't know if they're going to use our

services later but good relationship stuff, right? So

you don't know where you're going to find the right kinds of

relationships to help people with but that's

a great story because if you come from your

heart hmm, yeah, it pays off is that law of reciprocity too,

because you never know what's going to come back. It could

come from some Where else right?

So let me let me tell you when Bruce got the job at

Sony, yeah, his phone ringing off the hook that everybody

wants to call him. Right? Well, too late, right. So that's,

that's, yeah, there's

the moral to the story, right? Yeah, that's

really good. So I had asked in the information I sent you what

your favorite quote was, and you mentioned one from Steve Jobs.

It's not the tools you have faith in tools are just tools,

they work or they don't work. It's people you have faith in or

not. And that really speaks to what we just said. And yeah, and

he never struck me as a people person. Steve was who I love it

then. Exactly, exactly. You knew that? Yes, of course he did. And

when you Okay, so, your business now your CIVILUS consulting

business when your wife run together? I know she's the boss,

though. Right?

She is. Yeah, I'm the idea guy. Everything.

So is it now I know, it's been going for many

years now? Is does business come to you? Or are you still seeking

business? And if it comes to you, or when it comes to you? Do

you ever have to turn people wait, because they're not

thinking the way you want them? To think or?

Yeah, definitely comes to us. And we definitely

have to turn a lot of people away. Because we have very

specific mindset. And right, we're not going to work for

somebody that doesn't have that mindset. I'll give you an

example. Right now, recruiting is really big. I mean, everybody

needs talent. Everybody needs staff. Yeah, no one can find

enough and except our clients, we help them we help them

develop a relationship based recruiting strategy versus a

transaction based recruiting strategy. So somebody who is

spending 1000s of dollars a month on Indeed, and getting so

many clicks and applications that can't keep up with all of

them still aren't filling their positions. That's the kind of

person we're working with. Right now. They're coming to us,

because we've solved it for some other clients like, oh, call the

CIVILUS. Guys, they've got a solution to get out of that debt

trap. But they're some of those companies can't let go of it.

You know, I can't let go of this budget I spend on Indeed,

because then I won't have any clicks. Like, why do you want

clicks, you want clicks, you want people working here who

love working here. And that's a completely different approach

completely different. And some people are afraid to let go of

that the tools, the online tools are so addictive. And nobody

realizes how addictive they are. But if you're involved, you're

participating in almost like a casino. Dashboard, and you're

seeing that? Yeah.

Did they think they're getting more for their

money? Yes,

yeah, they've been, they forget what they're trying

to actually get, which is people to work there and stay there.

They think they're now trying to get clicks and views and opens

and likes and all that sort of stuff. Like, wait a minute, that

doesn't lead to anything, you don't want clicks. So we have

some people that just can't let go of that they're too afraid to

go in the direction of relationships, basically. And

it's like, well, we can't work well. So people

who have spent the money on something like

indeed and so on to do that, and then they come to you do you

take what they have and work from that and start to sift

through or do you go another approach completely?

We would say take the resources you're putting into it

into a deed and go somewhere else but we wouldn't try to

tweak their indeed campaign necessarily. No,

no, no, but they've got all these people are

all these. I don't even know how it works. So they get resumes.

Is that how they

Yeah, they get you know, they get applicants. It's

yeah, it doesn't matter. Yeah. I just thought I

like it's my hamster wheel. I also have resumes online that

they have to sift through route

don't fit anybody don't fit anything. It doesn't

constantly the applicant just hits up click apply, apply,

apply play can't filter anyone and then you just dealing with

all these. Yeah, so we would stop and say okay, whoa, whoa,

whoa, stop. Where did your best people come from? Who do you

love that works here? Who do you who would you want to get and

let's build a and so you end up building something that's

completely different rather than some online strategy you might

end up we have a moving company we work with we help them

connect into the local soccer community because it turns out

that soccer players are ideal. Yes, work to work in a moving

company because they're you don't need big and strong

stamina, right? Yes, yeah. And flexibility and because you got

you know, tools to help you lift everything. And so soccer, the

soccer community was the place to find people that love the job

and you could feed back and it and suddenly now we're this is

something more meaningful than just moving furniture, right?

Yeah, that's it. hear there's people watching for a reason

it's connected to what else that then things I love. And so you

know, it's a longer process than what I just explained. But

that's the direction you start going it is what it is if

somebody starts school or the community college or what's the

community, where do your people live? How do you get to know

them? And suddenly, there's no ads need to be run at all,

because everybody on the soccer team saying, Hey, guys, I love

this job, you gotta come work here and more applicants than

you can handle. So that's,

that's a great example. Actually, I quite like

that. That's very cool.

And you never know exactly where it's going to be

for each company. But for every company, you can find a way to

connect into some deeper thing with people and get people to

work there. Yeah,

for sure, for sure. I like that you, you use

the word and I'm just going back to something the volume versus

intimacy. I love that because that's really what it is. It's

about building that relationship. Now, I just want

to take a side to tour for a second. I know we weren't going

to talk about anything other than this piece. But I am a

curious person, which I'm going to talk to you about in a

minute. But my curiosity is about the music part of your

life. Sure. Talk to me about that. Like, are you a musician,

by the way?

No, I'm not a musician. Okay. Okay. I'm a

writer. Oh, yes. So I do songwriting. So that's a long

life. That's a lifelong process. I was in the radio business for

years and years ago, okay. And then as the market research

company I started was focusing on entertainment media. So we

worked for a lot of entertainment media clients, as

well as consumer clients who grew into that, but we worked

for a lot of record companies and radio stations, television

stations, and so on. And so that's how I got connected into

the music world. And then I, well, I have some creative bone

in my body. So I just start creating stuff. So now, I'm

involved in creating music and publishing some music and trying

to make that annual creative outlet.

And is that one genre or different genres?

It's different. So quickly, the music industry

story. If you're going to write music, and not be a performer,

really, country's probably about the only type of music where you

can do that, where you can write songs and other artists will

perform most other types of music, I guess, certainly, if

you're going to write plays, or something like that, or, or

classical type music, other artists would perform, and you

wouldn't actually be the performer. But if you're going

to be a pop star, or you're going to, you know, get into the

world of rap or rock, you're going to write your own

material, performing raw material. But a country is a

format where people artists perform other people's songs and

are looking for other songs. So that's the place where you can

write music, and have other people interested in performing.

And

those actually with that, with that genre with

country music, they're storytelling all the time,

right, more than any other genre. So that's kind of

interesting. Okay, thank you for sharing that with me. And I

said, curiosity, that's my favorite words. So I'd like to

ask you my two part question, which I love to ask my, my

guests. And the first part is do you think curiosity is innate?

Or learned? And the second part is, what are you most curious

about these days? Wow, I need

I think it's both I think that

you want me to read this note that you sent me

and you can talk from that?

I remind Sure. Yeah. I

just thought you weren't? You weren't sure. Go

ahead.

No, I'm, I'm just thinking about them. Before we

get into. I just think that is both. I think that we as a

species, we come with a certain amount of curiosity, but I think

we're sort of our brain is trained and formed in childhood

and a young adulthood about whether curiosity is rewarded.

So I think it's encouraged, you're not when you're growing

up, mine was encouraged to challenge the status quo, right.

So I do that as an adult. I mean, I my parents, you know,

challenge authority, you go back and tell them, you know, and so

that's what I do. So I think you come with a, like an ability for

curiosity, but then I think it's formed in your childhood about

whether you express it and go toward it.

That's a good answer. I've never heard that

one before. So that makes me want to ask you though, what did

your parents do that, that encouraged that? Contrary, it

can come prairie

can train them that my parents were both

contrarians, they are just and they taught me in both positive

and negative reinforcement ways, right to basically challenge

authority. Nobody's gonna tell you what to do. You're gonna No

one's gonna do that. And they even when they told me what to

do, my job is was to stand up to them say no, you're not, you

know, and I think they liked that. They liked that. You know,

they felt like they were making a strong man who would be able

to survive in a world and no one. So that was sort of You

know, our household challenged the rules. Yeah. Some of those

parents know when I got in trouble at school. I got in

trouble. You do the crime do the time. But I also got the wink.

So that was a good one. Don't do it again. Yeah. Yeah, that was

our house inside outside

thing. Yes. Okay, and, and so what are you most

curious about today?

I'm most curious about what's in my blind spot.

Right. So I don't know if you're familiar with Johari Window. And

people can Google that if they want J O H, a car I window is a

it's a little graphic that was designed by two guys named Joe

and Harris. Very creative name. But it basically divides the

world up into what you what you can see what you can't see. And

then what other people can see and what other people can't see.

It's a four little two by two box. Okay. But I really, as I've

gotten older, come to realize how much of the world in reality

is in that blind area that I can't see. Because I see what I

see, I believe what I believe, you know, like rules must be

challenged. Well, that's not true. It just is what I do.

Right? So what if rules aren't challenged. So this idea of

questioning what's really going on and looking for other

possibilities is what's always fascinating to me. And I think

that's where so much opportunity lies, is to go into areas. And

and I mentioned this when we were emailing back and forth

earlier about in the areas of adversity. So that's I mentioned

the Brian kite thing where he talks about tides consultant,

friend of mine who talks about how humans are not we're not

capable of recognize the difference in adversity and

opportunity. Frequently, what we think is one thing is the other,

you know, this looks great, and then it crashes or this looks

terrible, when it turns out to be great. So what he advocates

is that in order to succeed, you have to go toward adversity,

because you just have to believe that's opportunity, because

you're bad at recognizing it. So just always go toward adversity.

Love that, right? That's kind of what I'm doing is going well,

okay. I don't like this. This feels weird. I need to go toward

it. See what's going on there. So that's, that's what a

curiosity means for me.

Oh, that's really interesting. Unless I check back

with you and see how that has worked out. Because that takes

courage to write? Yes,

really does. It takes practice and courage because the

beginning it's scary, you're going toward things that are

scary. And, but then it's like practicing anything else

practicing juggling or practicing piano, if you do it

enough, you go, Oh, I know this, I can do this one I'm good at so

you get good at going toward adversity. And because you keep

realizing now every time I do that, I find some interesting

stuff. So it's, it's something you can practice.

Yeah, that's really interesting. When I think

about things I've done, though, that I've been very afraid of,

like climbing to the top of a pole and you know, jumping off

into oblivion. I mean, I thought the second time I got the

opportunity to do it, I wouldn't be as scared. But I was. So I

did it. But I was just scared and went through the same

emotions I went through the first time. Like, I can't do

this kind of thing. But I did it anyway, another story for

another day. But, um, so lots of interesting things on the

horizon for you. I know. Because you operate in many different

fields, what would you say is the most important message that

you might want to leave with my listeners today? Around what

we've really been talking about relationships, and yeah,

I would say that you've got to trust your gut,

it's there for a reason.

And the world right now, and not just now, but the world

increasingly will continue to try to take you away from your

gut. And that whether we're talking about cliques and

technology tools that are trying to convince you to, you know,

manipulate people in line or whatever, or whether it's, you

know, who knows what it is? And I think that, you've got to go

back to that really know what that is it for example,

relationships, do you have a good clear definition of what a

relationship is? I think a lot of people use the word but they

don't really well. I don't know, what is, Do I have a clear? Do I

know if I have one with someone? Right? And we do in CIVILUS, we

actually do that with people. I mean, when for example, you can

measure the relationship with someone, when you send them a

note of any type, any kind of email, telephone message,

whatever, a few get one back. That's the first indication you

have relationship. And B, if you have a really good relationship,

they put as much or more energy into their response than you

did. Right. My best friend when I send him a note, I get a

paragraph back, you get what? I get a paragraph backwards and in

one sentence, right? And so you can say, Oh, I have a

relationship with him where he feels good about spending time

with me. and investing in me, it's not I'm trying. So you can

actually start to realize and measure whether you have

relationships, you can define it. And then you're gonna find

that that is something that comes from your heart from your

gut. And you know if it's right or not, and you got to stick to

it, there's no reason and this is a lot of what we spend time

with on CIVILUS. with clients, there's no reason you have to

sacrifice your values to succeed. And in fact, our theory

is that if you go toward your values, and go toward that, what

feels like adversity scary, going toward my own values feels

scary. But that's the case for a lot of people I'm going to lose

my business from and you'll find you can be more successful,

you're gonna be more authentic, you're going to come up with new

solutions. And that's what you need to do is go toward your gut

and not listen to other people.

Amen. I mean, that's right. That's so true.

And I think that's a great place to stop because I could go here,

there and everywhere with you. I love that though. You know that

it feels scary. But you have to stick to your guns, because in

the end, you won't love yourself at all. If you don't, if you

don't, right, it just wouldn't feel right. Well,

and, you know, I'll tell you, anecdotally, from we

talked about the music industry a little bit ago. When you begin

in something like music industry, or whatever business

you're in, you think you're there to satisfy other people,

and the more other people love you and more applause and sales

you get that's love. And what you'll find in the long run is

that it's not right. You know, the most successful music, music

art in the world, artists in the world end up sort of crashing

out going well, that's just plastic and fake. And I want to

get back to truth and react and real. And so it can be the same

as as a business owner, you start off well, this is where we

need to go as we need to grow and you get revenue bla bla bla

bla, and you can get you can take yourself away from what you

are all about. And then you're just you build something that

isn't you you hate, I don't want you to can't. So you've got to

stick to your gut, you've got to stick to what's what your true

values are, and, and then insert that into your company, and

it'll work. That's

awesome. Thank you for all that great advice.

Yes. And I'm sure that the people that listen to my show

will appreciate hearing some of those things and it's a lot of

food for thought for some people. So you know, very well

taken and Bill. I will put in the show notes, but where can

people find your book or find you if they are? Right

so the company is Seville this consultancy IDI LIS

consulting.com, and I'm billing sales consulting, and the book

is quicksand CLI CK sa nd and that's available on Amazon if

they want to read it. It's interesting historical reading.

And one of the things I do in the book is talk about how this

quicksand in we're in now is not new. I talked about that Mark

Montgomery Ward catalog it's 100 year process that we're involved

with. So it's not something new. You're not out of touch every

century.

Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for your

time. Thank you for your your wisdom and thank you to my

audience for listening again and appreciate you if you like what

you heard, please leave a review and remember to stay connected

and be remembered