Taking Care of Business with the Enneagram | RR253

Hi, hi, everyone, and welcome to this week's

episode of relationships rule. I'm Janice Porter and my guest

this week is Carl had been straight, who comes to us, I

think you're in California right now.

I am in California. I'm in Southern

California right now. Yes, thank you.

We've been traveling. I know. And we'll

talk about that in a second. But first of all, welcome to the

show. And for having me. You're very welcome. I, I just want to

tell you a little bit very little bit, I want you to tell

the rest about you that you are a certified executive coach,

leadership and organization, development consultant, author

and international speaker. And you're the author of this very,

very academic book called taking care the how and why taking care

of business with the Enneagram. Carl, it's all about the

Enneagram. And has

been I would say it's it's not just academic,

it's applying the academics to practicality to business

practicalities and organization development intervention. So

it's the actual application, you're, I

apologize, no worries. So that it's all about

how to use this and apply it in business. But for me, when I

first looked at it, I went, Oh, my God, this is like a text.

There

are academics in it. You're absolutely right.

I mean, my my PhD thesis is in there. So you're absolutely

right.

And I'm glad, I'm glad that you corrected me

because Absolutely, it's about how to use this tool in

business. And I think that in itself, just taking it from,

from the model that it is and then applying it is is even more

to me academic. But I know what you mean, like, this is the

other piece that I love. This is a book that Carl wrote about the

Enneagram. And it's a children's book called Nina. And the

really, really tough decision. This one, of course, I loved

because I love children's books, and I was a teacher, an

elementary teacher. So that's why I love this. But also, it's,

it's a great way to teach children. You know, how to get

along with other people really is different. And the thing

about this book, how many languages is it in?

So it's an English and it's in Spanish.

It's also been translated into Greek and we're getting a

publisher for it in Greek, and it's also being translated into

French. Isn't

that wonderful? So that's, that's so cool. And

that does it have I know it has some like questions and

discussion questions in the back of this book. Do you use Do you

have like? Is it something you would do, like, do a course on a

Pro D Day professional day for teachers to show them how to do

this book? That kind of thing?

Absolutely. And it of course, it's intended

for children. But at some point, some of the children may be too

young to read it. So the adults who read it to them will also

get a lot out of it. Of course, of course.

So all right. Tell me first of all, how did

this come about? For you? How did you get interested in this

model in this piece? And when like a long time

ago, or it was a long time ago? I didn't know

anything about the Enneagram? I think it's right now it's it's

very popular, or it's gaining a lot of popularity, and people

really do know about it, or are finding out about it in a

variety of different ways. Whether it's through pop

culture, and quickly go answer this one question will tell you

what your Enneagram type is, or actually studying it for

different reasons for spiritual development or personal

development or leadership development for maybe they're

they have a psychologist that they're working with, and the

psychologist has brought it up to help them with it. But the

the way that I found out about it was when I was in graduate

school, going for my PhD in organizational psychology. And

this was back then it was called the California School of

Professional Psychology in San Francisco. And what I didn't

know anything about it, I was Myers Briggs, I was disc I know

and all about those things I was using when I thought they were

the bomb. It was awesome. It was great. And then I went to this

one class, and it wasn't even an entire semester of it. It was

just one class out of that that semester for that one, one class

that I was taking one, one second. And the professor that I

had for the class, somehow fortunately, knew Helen Palmer

and invited Helen Palmer, to come to our class to teach us

about the Enneagram introduced the Enneagram to us, and I

didn't know who Helen Palmer was. And Helen Palmer is huge.

Helen Palmer is one of this probably the reason why the

Enneagram is in in is popular in culture right now because up

until she wrote a book about the Enneagram. Back in the I would

say 1970s. The Enneagram was not taught to the public. It was a

very esoteric, very very secretive type of program. Um,

that was taught for Spiritual Development actually, yeah,

yeah. Okay. Yeah. So she wrote it down, she popularized it. She

said, You know, the world started learning about it, and

then other people started applying it. But anyway, going

back to the class, she came, and she taught us about the

Enneagram. And my mind was absolutely blown, I would just

expanded, I didn't even think about the differences between

behaviors that the other instruments were measuring, like

the Myers Briggs, a disc, and Hogan and all those, versus the

actual motivation that was driving those behaviors. And I

kept thinking about all the different applications that I

could use this in human resources, because I was in

human resources. And thinking, wow, we're not even tapping into

a third of, of what we should be tapping into, we are not

engaging and motivating employees appropriately,

according to what they want. We're just focusing on just a

couple different archetypes, hear a couple different energies

here. And we're missing the boat on all these others. So I

immediately decided that I was going to dive deeper into

researching it, and did my dissertation on it. And it was

how to help organizations attract, retain and motivate

employees. So

you discovered if I get this correctly, that from

your experience with the other tools that are used in business

like disc and, and the personality type things, and so

on, that this was much deeper, and there is much to it, and

would be a much better overall tool to use in business there

are so you that was your premise, you want to find out

right? And

absolutely. And it really goes along to what

you talk about on your podcast, but the relationships about the

connections, right? So if we just see someone's behavior, we

have no idea why they're behaving that way we and we make

assumptions, we make assumptions based on our interpretations or

our limited worldview, because we have a certain worldview that

we're looking at the world through. And if we actually get

to know them, and find out what's important to them, what

their values are, what their drivers are, what motivates

them, what's important to them what their hot buttons are,

right, then we'll understand what's important to them. And we

will have better relationships, deeper relationships with them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll limit conflict, because we will be

interpreting things in a in a in a bad way. We're looking at, you

know, why they're actually doing it and will actually be able to

better communicate and influence them looking at giving them

exactly what they need, as opposed to extraneous stuff that

they may not be interested in. Okay,

so just to simplify it for me and my

audience. So in the children's book, you show that this, Nina

goes to see all of these different friends of hers, and

each one of them has a different number. So she did exactly

right. And those are the numbers on the the Enneagram. And each

one of those is a different person. Would you say?

personality type? No.

It's called a Personality Typing system just

to simplify it. And it's much more than that. Right. Okay.

So I was looking, though, in your book, The other

book, is there a quick test? I can I could have taken which I

should have asked you beforehand to see which number I was. And I

know we have different pieces of different ones in us, but we

must have.

Or, yeah, I mean, one or what? What did you

score type? I mean, type

four? Yeah, of course. Exactly. So is there a

quick test online that people can take? There

are so many of them are much more valid than

others? Take? Yeah, I'm happy to I'll send you a link.

I use the Can you tell what somebody is? Okay. So

what do you think?

I don't know. I couldn't so we're not. We

should never be looking to guess or identify someone's type

without them telling us because we don't know what's going on.

We're not mind reader's. We don't know what's going on for

them. We have no idea what they're thinking what they're

feeling. And what they're

Yeah, I broke, wrote them all down from the

kids book. Yeah. Okay. So that I could get a sense of them. And I

still I didn't know I'm not sure. I there's a couple that

feel like me. Yeah. But it definitely, you know, I think,

do

you want are you are you willing to share

which ones they are?

Yeah, well, I think Sure, of course. So. Do

you want to do you want to go through what the nine are? Yeah,

absolutely.

Yeah. So in the children's books, since

we're focusing on that the types are one through nine. And the

names are also indicative of the type. So type one is one right

to two is chewing Nene as a type nine, so she's Nino's nine.

Eight is Kate. So the type one which is the type we all have,

and as you said, we have all nine of these energies within us

to certain extents and we can access all nine of these

energies within us. It just takes us to focus on which one

is appropriate for that. moment for that situation. So if we

look at, I'm going to simplify it even further, I'm gonna look

at into groups of three. And maybe the types that you

selected are fall into one, each of these groups of three. So we

have the heart types, we have the head types, or thinking

types. And we have the body or action types. So if we start,

let's start with the heart types. So the twos, the threes,

and the fours are the heart types. So the type two energy is

all about intuitively reaching out and knowing what other

people need. So always having these feelers out, that are

looking and understanding what other people's needs are, and

meeting those needs or wanting to help people meet those needs,

even if the person hasn't asked for the help themselves. Yes.

Okay. So that's where the twos can get into trouble with that,

yes, it's that intuition of knowing what other people need

and suppressing their own needs in the moment, right, they're

always looking at other people's needs, and not necessarily their

own. So that's the path the superpower, the twos have that

intuition of, of meeting other people's needs, and wanting to

be liked and appreciated for that. So the type three heart

energy or feeling energy, is seeing what other people's needs

are, but also maybe pushing their own needs down in service

of achieving goals. They're always about goal, attainment,

goal achievement, meeting the objectives. So that's the type

three, that's the so the two is the Giver, or helper, the three

is more about performing and achieving. And then type four

heart energy is taking all of those energies in all those

feelings and very empathically feeling what other people are

feeling, feeling, what they're feeling themselves, and really

being in those feelings, and wanting to be appreciated for

being special, unique and different. So those are the

heart's types. And each of us whether it's our primary or not,

are going to really be attracted to one of those three, because

that's how we everyone accesses their heart. Everyone has

feelings, everyone feels so how do you basically feel you feel

through one of those, those three energies or lenses, so

it's up to you to decide which one of those that is, and I

don't know, if the some of the that you picked, if one of them

is in the two, three or four range? One of them is, yeah, so

probably, that's probably your feeling style. Yeah. So from the

feeling center, we then go to the thinking center, the head

center, and those are the fives, the sixes and the sevens. So

think of them as thinking styles. So the five is all about

objectivity. The sixth is about worst case, scenario planning.

And the seven is all about positive outcomes and

opportunities. So the fives energy is really all about

collecting all this random data that's out there and making it

make sense grading models to make it make sense, so that they

can predict what's possibly going to be happening in the

future, and they can be prepared for it and not look foolish.

That's what the five is really all about. Fantastic at creating

synthesizing this information, making it make sense. The six is

great at planning, because they're always looking at worst

case scenario situations, because they want to feel safe,

comfortable and secure. So they are looking for the safety of a

tribe. They're people, they are looking at, not necessarily to

throw a monkey wrench into things, but to prepare for the

worst case in case it does happen. And then they know what

to do. So they can be safe, comfortable, secure, and still

achieve the goal. And they the Warriors. They do worry, but

other types can worry as well. Okay. Or, and other types can

worry as well. And the seven is the optimist, right? So it's all

about opportunities, and adventures and experiences, and

just really taking advantage of all the different options that

are out there brainstorming. So those are all the head styles

that think the thinking styles, right? And each of us is going

to have one of these as our preferred mode of thinking. Not

that we can't think through the other two styles as well. But

those are secondary, or they take more focus for us to think

that way. So you probably I don't know if one of the top

that you came up with isn't one of those categories. In that

thinking style. Yeah,

I get more confused as we go on here. But

oh, no, it's meant to be

because I know that that some of what I some of

how I operate is logical and let's get the facts and then

let's organize sort of the analyst type. But that's not my

primary. I don't think I think I'm much more about people and

making friends making other people feel comfortable. And but

I'm also about loyalty. So yeah, yeah. So

so those are not mutually exclusive, and

correct. Oh, you do have because there is it's called your

triadic style or try fix or try type. So you will have a top

energy in each of these centers and one of those will be your

primary. Okay? Okay, if you're not identifying that the

thinking style is your primary focus, it may be because your

heart, your heart center, you lead with your heart. So you,

you will have one of those heart styles as your primary, but you

still have a thinking style. Okay. And you still have an

action style. Yeah, so

that's the third one is the action style,

this action or body or gut? Yes. So there are

eights, nines, and ones. So are eight. So if you think about it,

so you have the feeling, you have the thinking, and then you

have to do something with it like you felt. You've thought,

Now what do I do with it? So then you take action. So the

eights are all about taking action immediately leading

executing are the boss protectors, generals. Yeah, they

they they're about control, power, authority, justice, truth

they want to there's truth seekers, they want to know what

the truth is. They don't care what the truth is, they just

want to know what the truth is. They don't sugarcoat it for

them. Yeah, just give them what it is. And they will deal with

it. They are great with conflict, they see conflict and

debate as a way to get to truth. They don't necessarily like

conflict, but they see it as a tool to get there. And they're

the ones that are most comfortable with conflict,

because all the other styles are not necessarily looking to have

conflict or embrace conflict. And the eights again, don't love

it. But they see it as a way to get to truth, which is what

they're seeking. Ultimately, the nines don't like conflict at

all. They're the peacemakers. They're the peacekeepers,

they're like Don't rock the boat, let's just not, you know,

let's just all get along. And they're great at looking at the

entire system, they're looking at every single little bit of

every little option and component, and seeing the value

and positivity that it brings, and the value that it all brings

together to the system. Everything comes together and

works. And the type one is looking at things as well,

what's the right thing to do in this situation? Maybe it's

according to their values, their morals or ethics, but it's

always about doing the right thing. What's the right thing to

do, and having the sense of perfectionism we I need to do it

perfectly.

So So tell me what, what type this question or

statement brings up? Because right away when you started, and

you said, well, let's do it into three, three sections, which I

love that you did that. But right away, I was annoyed. Why

isn't it 1234567? Why?

So okay, so there were a couple of answers

for that. Sure. So some types are predisposed to be focused

on, I needed to be in a certain way I need to be in order, I

need speed following certain rules. So the type ones can

definitely fall into that category. The type fives,

remember, the fives wanted the system to want to be

predictable. So the fives might be a little annoyed at that as

well. Yes. And if you look at it as a system, and they might say,

oh, yeah, it doesn't matter. It's arbitrary, where you start

as long as it fits within the system. And there's a reason for

it. And there is a reason for why we why it's not 123 is the

heart styles and 345 as the feelings that as the thinking

styles. So it so when you actually see the symbol, there

are lines that connect each point to two other points on the

circle. Okay, and one of those lines is your, you want to call

it your stretch or your stress line. So where you will go under

stress or stretch. Yep, exactly. Okay, got it. And the other line

is your comfort or release line, which is where you will go to

comfort and you'll learn from both of those lines, those are

the easiest, and most impactful if you want to look at it that

way lines to learn from for your growth and development. Because

you want to go to the high side, and there are high sides and low

sides for each different energy, right? Yeah, there's the

positive and then there's the creative side and the reactive

negative side on the unhealthy side. So you always want to

strive to go for the healthy and creative.

And so that's why the one never sits in the right

place. Is that why? Because

yeah. Oh, it's in the right place for this

system.

All right. Yes. See, I guess there's some

perfectionist in me as well. I thought it was interesting that

the the, I think it's type seven is one of it's the adventure and

the cure. Yeah, it's interesting.

I think you're in the sense of wanting to

experience everything.

Okay. Everything food, it's not just food. It's

tasty. It's

everything. It's experiences. Yeah. Okay. So

really fascinating. And it's funny

because I was talking to somebody I think it was someone

I interviewed. Yes, the day before yesterday. And she is had

the Enneagram was one of her things that she did about you

and showed her your book because she hadn't heard of you, but a

leadership coach or an executive coach. And yeah, she might be an

interesting person for you to talk to actually, she's

absolutely brilliant. And she Yeah, I think that's who it was.

And I'll double check after our call. But yeah, I'd

love that connection. Yeah.

And, and so I can see, whichever, whichever model

I've seen in the past, and I've, you know, I've experienced the

disc and the other ones, you mentioned, the Myers Briggs,

that was long time ago. Oh, yeah, the color ones. And then

there was another one that was I forget the name of it. But you

know, I wrote down when I was looking that number number

seven, I thought of the promoter, I thought of the PERT

like, number, whereas number eight are like the, the

controller. So there was another one I did somewhere the

controller, the promoter, the analyst, and the the blue, which

I guess it was the title, that's

disk that is disk. So when there's those four

categories, and they have those names, so the the red is the for

the dominant, the D, right? Those are the assertive types.

So our threes are sevens, and our eights would fall into that

category. Yeah. So so there's

a lot of similarity, because of course,

you only have certain attributes, right? But for me,

any, I don't think I've ever had one stick with me in terms of

being able to see that in other people, except maybe it was the

disk because that's the one I remember. I remember, I see my,

my daughter is such a promoter, she's a salesperson, she's an

active person, she's like, let's get this done, you know,

thinking about it. And I can see and I'm a dominant person in

like, I'm the Bossy one. And you know, I want to get order and

organized and get everybody happening. And then my sister is

like, wants everyone to wants peace for everybody wants to

you know, she's the nine energy. Yeah, so

I

can see those things. And this just gives

another dimension to everything, right?

It explains the reason behind it, the hind

end. So what is the reason for the need to be dominant? Or the

behavior of being dominant? Yeah, right, is it the need for

and by the way, one of the subtypes for the type one can

also be very dominant. We haven't even discussed subtypes,

that's getting a lot deeper, the different instincts or three

different instincts, which creates subtypes. And anyway, so

the, the, you know, what's the reason for the dominance, the

behavior of dominance? Is it the need to control? Or is it the

need to be able to be free and have autonomy? And that way,

you're able to control your destiny by doing all these

different things, to prove yourself? Or is it for meeting

some certain goal of, you know, proving yourself that I can I

can achieve this goal, this is the goal that I put for myself,

and I'm going to achieve it. Prove yourself to somebody else,

it could also be for the type three as well. Yeah, there's

so many different things that that come to mind.

Okay, so how do you who in in a business environment is going to

use this isn't going to be the HR people? Or, you know, does it

have to come from the top down? I'm not even a corporate person.

But I'm just curious, you know?

So the answer is everyone, okay? Everyone can

benefit from it. So ideally, if it becomes part of an

organization's culture, and the leadership team embraces it, and

says, Wow, I can see the value in this and this works with my

leadership team. And then this is exactly what I've

experienced, right? I've gone in, I've done it at the

deliberative workshop for the top leadership team. They all

get it and they say, Wow, I need this for my leadership team and

their leadership teams and for their direct reports and their

direct reports. And that's how it really takes,

it has to start at the top really, generally

speaking, it does

have to start at the top and it can also

bubble up from the bottom. It could be a grassroots effort. So

different I've seen it happen where people go from one

organization to another, it's been Ingram is not in that

organization. They start using with their team, other parts of

the organization, see this successes that they're having is

a hold on a second, this is great, let's use it to so then

it starts bubbling and it goes up. Okay. So it's whatever

works. The answer is whatever works for the situation, the

culture or the organization. And it really is readiness, the

person's readiness, the leaders readiness, the employees

readiness, the organization's readiness to seems readiness,

just everyone's readiness. How ready are they for?

We knew the children's book. What age group

did you have in mind?

I think that it would probably apply best.

And again, it depends on the the advanced meant of the children.

Probably starting the earliest if eight. Yeah, so I was gonna

say, Yeah, eight. Definitely the 10 year olds get it immediately.

I would say grade three or four. Yeah,

yeah. So interesting.

Yeah. To, to use that in a school. I as I said, I

taught school a long time ago. You just came back from a cruise

in we got to do a presentation on your cruise. Yes. Of the

Enneagram. And that's exciting. So yeah, what 250 People in the

US now, they weren't on a on an educational tour, they were on a

Yo,

they were on a vacation there. All the ports

that we visited were truly islands with beaches. So people

were going out there and snorkeling and swimming and

laying on the beach. So this was definitely not part of their

agenda.

250 people showed up. So that's

pretty nice. Well, it was a captive audience.

But But no, but they didn't have to come right?

No, they

didn't. There were plenty of other

opportunities I was up against. I think there was a poker

tournament or something going on. There were other things

going on.

So tell me tell me how that of that audience I'm

I'm imagining? I don't know that you ask them if they'd heard of

it. Yes. Okay. How many

of you had I was, so throughout the cruise, I

was asking people when I was meeting people, you know, I was

telling them, I'm going to be doing this on the last day or

last see day. And you know, come if you're interested, you don't

have to come. But this what we'll be talking about

very few people. You were promoting,

I was promoting, they were promoting

for me. And they did a video that they shot a video and they

were and I was on the front page of their little daily newspaper

and everything like that. So it was great. But the thing that I

found out was, and this was mostly Australians, because the

cruise ship left from Sydney. And but it was people from all

around the world. And the thing that I found out was that most

people did not know about the Enneagram. Sometimes if they did

it was because they were clinical psychologists. And so I

didn't know who was going to show up at the workshop at the

one hour seminar. And I asked at the beginning of the seminar,

how many people had heard of the Enneagram were you anything

about it, and less than a dozen raise their hands.

So that was afterwards,

a lot of people came up to me and said

this was incredible. And it was really opened up their eyes,

they didn't know what to expect it and know anything about it.

And it was really very powerful for them and

impactful. Now, I think I said to you when I first

met you that my recollection of anything that was connected,

because I had heard the word I knew what basically it was, it

went back to a time when I did a course on the 24 Sacred gifts.

And the women that taught me that also had studied the

Enneagram. And I felt there was this religious or spiritual

connection. Can

you see? Yes, yes. So the origins of the

Enneagram are ancient and mystic. So the symbol itself is

a Sufi symbol. And the the actual concept can be traced

back 1000s of years because if you look at the Odyssey, and

Odysseus, his travels, Homer's Odyssey, it's actually the

Enneagram in order the lands visited or the Enneagram in

order, yes. And visited. Yes, are the Enneagram in order

there's a book Michael Goldberg has written a book about this.

And he shows how the Odyssey is really the Enneagram, the story

of the Enneagram all the different lands on the

Enneagram. Russ Hudson does a great trip every I think he does

it pretty much annually a trip to Egypt to show all the

different symbols and we're in the in the pyramids embedded in

the pyramids or Enneagram concepts. So it's really

fascinating to see how old it is. And we'll never know exactly

what the origins are, but we do see it around the world

pervasively. So

your goal now is as a speaker, right to go and

spread the word so to speak.

Yeah, I want to make people's lives easier. I

want to make their relationships easier. I want them to have more

effective relationships. Do better at work, be better people

be better human beings and just living easier, better life.

And and if they study the Enneagram and the the

MO motivations behind our actions, we'll learn more about

each other, we'll be able to get along better. Absolutely

think of it as emotional intelligence. Because

emotional intelligence building, you start with self awareness

first. So understanding what your own drivers have been in

will be will continue to be thriving in our lives. Because

your, your core Enneagram motivation will stay with you

for your entire life. It's just the expansion. It's the and so

in addition to that, let me see if I can integrate the other

eight styles and make sure that I'm not only fixated and looking

at the world without one lens, right and thinking that other

people are also looking at it that same way. So then when you

realize that other people don't, then you empathize with their

perspective

and adapt as accordingly, ultimately, is

the third point adapting and integrating

it and using it. So bringing it into your own worldview,

expanding your own worldview, to realize that it's not just that

one style or motivation or perspective, it's all of them.

That's

amazing. And it's actually a great way, a great

place to stop, because we've kind of come full circle now.

It's right, we understand a little bit more about the

Enneagram. I hope my audience does. I know I do. And I want to

go and find out a little bit more. And I also see the value

in what you're, you're now this is a new, a new journey for you.

Right? Because do you were you teaching by the way? Or were you

in?

So I found out about the Enneagram. Back last

century, if you're looking at buying is probably the when I

started my journey? Yeah, but

were you in corporate yourself? I

was I was in corporate up about two years

ago. Yeah. But I was still using the Enneagram in my

organizations in the organization. So

now you're going out on your own now you're the

author, speaker circuit. So it's exactly you know, on lighten a

lot more people's lives and, and businesses about the Enneagram.

So it's my hope, that was my dream.

I think it's Yeah, I think not a hope more of

a dream, I think it'll happen. I think it's interesting that

people are so much today in need of the softer side of things.

And and, and also, like you said, it's always stays with you

the world's changing and is crazy right now. But those kinds

of things, we need to understand people and be aware of what's

going on for a lot of people,

right? And going back to your audience, the

value in the Enneagram for your audience is if you're a leader,

knowing about what your predispositions are finding out

about your direct reports, your team's ways that what motivates

them, so you can engage them and motivate them and retain them.

Right? If you're in sales, or marketing, really knowing I was

just part of the Samsung just did a launch yesterday for their

new product. And I tuned into it. And I was fascinated to see

that they touched on every single Enneagram point what

would be of interest to each of the nine different styles. So

that so that you wouldn't leave anyone out, they will be very

inclusive. So it's really about inclusion, right, including all

diverse perspectives and needs. So if you're a sales and

marketing perspective, if you make sure that you touch on all

of those focal areas that each of these nine energies is

looking for, or their comfort, then you you will know that

you've addressed the needs of your stakeholders of your

clients or your potential customers. So it's for HR, same

thing, how do you work with your leaders and the employees like

finding out what's important for them, creating systems that will

really motivate them and engage them. So this is really a system

that can help bring everything together?

That's amazing. So I agree. Yeah, no, I think

that's great. And I'm really glad that you came to talk to me

and my audience about it, because I think they'll spread

the word, you know, and we'll get some more people interested

in so I will in the shownotes, where can people get these? I'll

put it in the show notes on Amazon or

on Amazon. They're in bookstores. Yeah. So

absolutely, feel free to review. So I'm on LinkedIn, of course my

website is perform and function.com. So it's like a

play on words form and function, but it's perform and function

and you spell out the end percent side. So it's p e r f o

r m a n d, fu MC T io n.com. And my LinkedIn is our Carl had been

striped, and Carl's with a que.

Got it. And I'll put all that in the show notes.

So thank you so much for being here. Thank you for coming today

and spending some time with us. And thank you to my audience

again for being here. And if you liked what you heard, please let

us know and leave a review and share this information. If you

think you have some questions and you want to talk to Carl,

you'll know where to go Find them and remember to stay

connected and be remembered Thank

you Janice thank you everyone