Why Every Creator Needs to Understand Intellectual Property | RR290

Hello everyone, and welcome to this week's

episode of relationships rule. My guest this week is Celeste,

the trademark accelerator, and this is an interesting topic

that I know very little about, and so I thought it would be

interesting to share with you my audience, because Celeste has

been in this field for many, many years, and she is a pro at

it, and so I appreciate her coming on the show. Welcome to

the show, Celeste. Thank you so much for having me. I really

appreciate it. You're very welcome. Celeste is coming to us

from England, which is really cool, and for the past 10 years,

has been consulting clients who feel overwhelmed by the daunting

task of trademark application. She's aware that not everything

can or should be trade become trademarks, and will only

perform the application if she's certain that she can avoid

wasting her clients money. And so that's probably a really good

place to start, like what is trademarkable and what isn't.

So anything that is generic cannot be

trademarked, and anything that is unique can't. Well, not

anything, but things that are unique can be because there are

still things that cannot, cannot and should not ever be

trademarked and and that's as it should be, because if everything

could be trademarked, then we wouldn't be able to have a

normal conversation, and that would be a pain in the behind,

as you can imagine. So so it's really important to know and

understand that, yes, you may be able to do it yourself to

register a trademark yourself. However, there is that thing

with a rejection. You may not understand why the trademark

authority rejected it, and you may not think that that you did

anything wrong. However, you will not get the money back,

because all the trademark authorities all over the world,

they will always all work in the same way, where they assess your

application, and if you do not have the legal knowledge, you

may actually risk being rejected. You may be lucky and

do register a trademark yourself. However, in many

cases, you will get a rejection, and what you don't get is you

don't get the money back, because they perform their job

and assess your

Yeah, so you're better to work with an expert

like you to make sure that you're going on the right track.

So I think of trademarks as visual things that you're

trademarking, like a logo or a title, or, you know, your store

name, or, you know, things that people visual things. And I

think, okay, so there's intellectual property. Is that

the like umbrella of all these things? Okay, so trademarks, and

then copyrights, and then what else is there? Copyright is like

for books and things, right? And papers and words,

yes, and this is So, this is my book, and I

have a copyright. Control your own

copyright. It's more, okay, perfect. It needs

updating, yeah.

But this, this is my book, and it's my it's

actually my life's work, and what I've done also, because I'm

me, I've put my trademark on every single page.

Ah, okay. And for our listeners, the trademark

that Celeste has is like her shield. It's like, it's almost

like a shield. So she has, it's unique, and therefore it was

able to be trademarked, and that's what I'm seeing. And her

company name is Grand IPR, correct? Yes, that is correct.

Okay, so we've got, we've got content would be under

copyright. Is that correct?

Yes, and so. And it also covers films and it

covers photographs and it covers sound recording and

architecture. And actually, in France, they are quite adamant

about upholding rights to certain structures. So the

Eiffel Tower, for instance, even though it was built back in the

1800s there is now a light installation on it. And if you

do not have specific permission, you may photograph it, but you

may not use it for purposes you have to obtain permit. Oh,

interesting. But how do they how do they monitor

that?

I don't know how they monitor that. I just

know that that's how, how they, they behave in France, right?

Interesting. So, okay, so that actually interests

me in that you live where, in London, right? Or no, I live

in England. I live in North Lacher, but my

business is registered in London, right?

So, but, and you're, you. Have lived in, I

think you're Danish. Is that correct? Or you've lived in

Denmark, you went to

school, and I was born in Denmark, correct?

And I studied the law in Denmark, and I always felt that

I wanted to move sort of beyond the little, little areas that

Denmark is. Denmark is. Denmark is a very, very small economic

area, even though it's a strong one, there are only 7 million

people in all of Denmark. So like, Paris is like twice as big

Paris alone,

you know, so are things different in Europe than

they are in North America when it comes to trademark and

copyright. Do you know, or is it just usually that it with this

type of thing? It's the same worldwide.

The really, really excellent thing for me is

it's more or less the same worldwide. So that makes my life

so much easier. And and, yeah, people do?

People? Do people apply for trademarks in multiple

countries?

Yes, there is no such thing as a global

trademark that does not exist. So even the big brands that we

think of as a global trademark, such as Apple, for instance,

yes, is not a global trademark. They

have to have the trademark in every country that

they sell, and they

don't, they don't even have it every single

country, because there will be countries where it's deemed on,

on worthwhile for them or not worthwhile. That was a funny

word I made up.

Yeah, not worthwhile, yeah. So, yeah. Oh,

interesting. Okay, that I didn't, I wouldn't have thought

of so you, you have, you have a couple of comments here on, I

think it might be a workshop that you do, but you're talking

about what people need to know, about how to protect their their

content, their copyright, their cash flow, their credibility and

their confidentiality. And so those are all interesting to me.

So how do you copyright your cash or, how do you protect your

cash flow? First of all,

so these are all all topics that I touch on

in the upcoming event I did. I actually wrapped it last week,

and I'm doing it again in November on the 25th so it's

five days, and these are 30 minute sessions, and there is a

mystery gift for the people who attend. To be eligible, they

have to be there all five days. And it's it's a really great and

fun event, because people come with different backgrounds and

different sort of issues and different experiences, and so

are

they learning? It's mostly to learn about how

to trademark something, or whether what they have is is

worthy of being trademarked. It

is to learn what type of intellectual

property they have. First of all, okay, because all of, all

of so all of the intellectual property goes hand in hand to

form a stronger shield of protection, as I always say, Oh,

okay. And actually, people have a tendency to push intellectual

property to the backs of their minds because it sounds so

complex. And yes, it is complex. However, for me, it is not

complex, and I absolutely love it. And I love these events that

I'm doing so much that I will just keep doing them, because

they are so educational for people, and they just love them.

I got some really, really great testimonials. So I just, I just

know that this is part of what I'm meant to be doing moving

forward. So, you know, there's no question about that. And it

is also important that people understand that they can have

different types of intellectual property that can affect their

cash flow if they don't protect it.

Well, I think what comes to my mind is what

the big, huge changes that happened a few years ago in the

music industry, and how artists and songwriters and so on really

had to step up their protection of their properties. And we saw

Taylor

Swift, she all of her own work, yeah,

because somebody else was owned. Her property,

right? And intellectual property, intellectual property,

yes, her intellectual property, yeah. And so she chose to do

that, but, and that's a huge undertaking and expense in

itself, but then she has a license to print money anyway.

But anyway, that's, she's, she's another story. However, she's

an interesting lady. And, yeah, she's got loads

of trademarks, by the way.

Yeah, interesting. So, so there's

that. And then I think the rise of intellectual property

attorneys rose as well. Because it became, it has become, with

the way the world is a bigger issue now we've got chat GPT and

all of the things that go along with that. There's going to be

more laws and more new ways of looking at things to protect

people's intellectual property, right?

And also, the thing is, with regards to AI, I

use it because it's to me who experiences life with dyslexia.

It was a label I got right after I got my master's degree in law.

It can help me immensely to get stuff with the help of AI and

and the more creative we are, and the more sort of we refine

it, the more protectable it actually becomes. At the

beginning, I thought that that's there's no way that this is

protectable. And actually, I heard a podcast from Denmark the

other day, where they said that the more you are creative with

what you put into it. And that's the important thing to know

about, AI, because when we started out using it, I started

I had no idea how to use it. I just, you know, put whatever in.

And so the result came back really, really poor. But the

better we get at romping the AI tool to work for us, the more it

gets to sound, I guess, and the more it gets protectable,

actually. So that's really, really interesting. And, and

even, yeah, even, even photographers can also use AI

prompts and stuff like that. So it is about being as creative. I

think there was something in that podcast, unfortunately, in

some Danish. So unless people understand Danish, they won't

understand what's going on. But there, I think there was

something about a Vogue photo shoot where the photographer had

been really, really creative, and put in loads and loads and

loads and loads and loads of information, and each time

tweaking it so that it became more and more refined, and that

then was a Vogue cover, and that was actually protectable. And

this is really important to know and understand, because

otherwise we can think that, oh no, because it's an AI tool, I'm

not protected, actually, yes, we are. So

you're saying that they, this photographer

created the shoot through AI. I'm

not entirely sure how that happened. I just

know that the prots that

were put in, well, they do do visuals on it,

so it makes sense. Yeah, I think that

it was the visual for it. I'm not sure it

was the actual photo shoot, but it was definitely a vote that

was probably an artificial photo shoot. It was

done through AI, yeah, interesting, yeah. And you never

know anymore. Like, you know, I'm a LinkedIn trainer, and I've

been doing some training lately with a group of people that are

in this corporation. And I always talk about, you know,

their headshots, and three of the last people that I've talked

to have all used AI photos. And I'm like, really, like, I didn't

know two of them were but the third one, I knew the person, so

I knew it was something a bit off to me, but I can still

recognize it, but I it some of it's weird, still weird, like

and of course, the people are saying to me, well, it saved me

a lot of money and time to do it that way. But, you know, I don't

want to put people out of a job yet. Thank you. So I say go to a

photographer. But I just thought it was interesting that, you

know, we're using it for many different things, and in good

ways and in bad ways. So that's where the trademarks and the

copyrights and all of that comes into play as well right now. And

we also

have to be very, very aware of deep fake,

because it has become so mind blowing that I saw a short video

clip. I think it was on LinkedIn, where or YouTube. I

can't remember exactly where, but it you saw like at the front

there was a female, and then up in the corner you saw a man, and

it was the man's voice that came out of the female's mouth. And

so it was just showing how deep fake has become. So they can

really manipulate. Yes,

I've seen some examples of manipulation as

well. In fact, Oprah did an interesting show on AI a couple

a few weeks ago, and they had some different examples of

things that they showed it was quite, quite devastating. It was

kind of eye opening, but scary in a lot of ways, for sure. So

you've talked a little bit about, and this is sort of an

aside, but you've talked twice now about dyslexia and being

diagnosed. As an adult with dyslexia. So if you went all

through school and all through your life to that point not

knowing what was wrong, but you struggled with reading, I'm

said, I'm guessing and

not reading homework, I hated homework the

way.

You don't have to be you don't have to hate have

dyslexia to hate homework. So how did it

affect you? I didn't thrive with it. I didn't.

I didn't enjoy it. I didn't, yeah, I didn't like it. And I,

you know, I don't know why. I just didn't, didn't enjoy it,

and and I'm managed to go through, like, the majority of

my schooling, and as I say, I started studying the law at 35

so there was a gap between. I finished whatever I was doing

before and then started studying the law. And I just had no idea.

I just thought that I was incredibly slow when it and I

didn't understand how to structure an assignment. Even

while I was at university, I didn't understand how to

structure it properly. And so that was I didn't get very good

grades, except in intellectual property

well, but with from my understanding I was a

teacher, and from my understanding dyslexia is seeing

letters and numbers backwards and mixing them up. In some

cases, I

don't do that necessarily. Just there are just

words. They're just words that I cannot re spell, like

Switzerland and Danish, I cannot spell it. Yeah, there are things

the word necessary in English, I've had to figure out a way to

say the word to myself so that I can spell it.

Okay. So spelling is an issue. Yes, yeah. And

grammar is an issue, okay, okay. Well, and how many languages do

you speak? Six? Yes, see, so no wonder. I mean, it's got to be

confusing. I mean, nobody speaks that. Only Europeans are the

people that I know that speak more than one, that were two

languages at the most. I'm so envious, and I could never start

at this late age, but it's amazing to me. But that has to

come into play, because, you know, actually I saw, I saw a

very funny bit on Instagram where this guy was showing

words, and he said, like, B, O M, B, bomb. And then he put the

next word up, C, O M, B, that should be calm, right? No, it's

calm. And then he went through a whole list of them. It was

hysterical, because the English language is not easy for for a

foreigner to to understand spelling and and reading wise.

So I would imagine that would play into you learn if you've

been able to learn so many different languages, are you

sure them

since I was a little child? Yeah, I think that

has something to do with it, because, and I've always loved

languages. And actually my father, well, you know, both my

father and my mother and my maternal grandmother, they would

read stories to me, so maybe that's why I love reading. I

don't know. However, there was one story in particular that my

father was reading where there was this young girl who

collected words. So I started collecting

I love it. That's great. Well, my granddaughter,

I'm going off on a little tangent here, but my

granddaughter, who's five, couple weeks ago, was over and

said she wanted to watch this little five year old special

show Paw Patrol, which is big in the United States and Canada.

And I couldn't find it as well. Okay, so I couldn't find what

she wanted on Netflix, so we found it, and it was on the

French channel. And I said, Well, you have to watch it in

French. She said, Okay, grandma, so she'd seen it before anyway,

so she knew exactly what was going on, and she watched it in

French. So she came over last week and she said, Could I watch

that show in French again, grandma? So I thought that was

really funny. And that's when they're going to pick it up,

right? That's when they're going to pay attention to that. So I

thought that was really funny. Okay, I digressed. And okay, so

if I would imagine what the answer will be to this, but I'm

going to ask you anyway. So do people talk to you about the

names of their companies and whether and then, do you often

suggest or recommend a tweak to make it trademarkable?

Yes, they do, and that's what the asks list.

Anything session is for so that they can ask me all the

questions that are like, Oh, I don't know what to do about

this. Or I don't know, is this even something that can become

registered as a trademark or, you know, and in those sessions,

I can then say, I recommend that you can. Something different,

and depending on how many questions they have, because

they may have many questions that may eat up all the time

because it's a 15 minute session, however, if it's just

the one question, then we can sit and have a conversation

about what I would suggest, like I I would never suggest to

someone that they use their personal name for their

business. I do say that. Sorry. I knew you were going to say

that, yeah, because I there was a Danish clothes designer that

I'm connected to on LinkedIn. We weren't we weren't friends. When

I heard her story, because it was part of the case study, what

I was studying in the law. However, she had a business, and

she was using her personal name for her label, and to cut a

really long and tedious story short, the label, her business

went bust, and the label was sold to a third party, and then

she continued using her name as her label, and then she was

infringing upon Yeah, and so the High Court of Denmark has

sentenced her to find herself a new name, and so it's only on

social media in her own home, she is still the same person.

She can still use her birth name, but on social media. And

so she chose the name Lou, because in in Danish, l, I, V

means life, and she reasoned that she was not dead, she was

still alive. So that's why she chose that, and she now has a

completely different business name, and she's doing really,

really well, and she's massively successful, and she's absolutely

a wonderful person. And actually, something similar

happened to a designer here in the UK called karen millen. I

haven't got the exact details of her story, but it's something

similar. So I always say, be careful of using your own

personal name, because it may actually have severe

consequences. And, you know, I see it as my, my job to protect

people as best I can. And even in those 15 minutes I will, I

will do my best to do that. That's

very interesting. Those are good stories, good

examples. Mm, hmm. So, of course, I did that. I chose my

name because I learned that. You know, I was a one. I was a solo

printer, and I wanted people to recognize me for they. Wanted

them to know my name, because I'm all about relationships and

people, and so I wanted to make sure that you meet. But you

know, if I had to do it again, I'd probably do something

different. But I don't know it's too late for me now, but that's

okay. It's all good. So, but it definitely is an interesting and

we ought to take more we are. We ought to pay more attention to

trademarking and register and copyrights and things like that,

because in this, this is the word litigious, litigious world

where people are suing people left and right.

We do have to, and especially in North America.

Oh, I know, yeah, very, very particular to to North America.

I know they are, well, more more

the US than Canada. Canada is we're all too

polite. Okay, sorry, I'm in us, so that's okay. I'm not, I'm not

offended, for sure, but it is something that it sounds as

though having an expert guide one through it is also the best

way to go. So okay, you live in the UK. You speak a lot of

Denmark because you went to school. You did some schooling

there. Do you ever come over here to North America? Have you

ever been over to North America, not yet,

and I'm not averse to it. I would like to,

and I obviously also do read up about the legislation in both

Canada and America, because in Canada actually the trademark

protection is a tiny bit longer than in most of the countries,

because in Canada, it is 15 years, and most other countries

have a 10 year period. So in Canada, it's a 15 year renewal

cycle, and in other countries, it's a 10 year, uh, renewal

cycle. And in America, after five years, you have to provide

proof of usage.

Oh, really, yes, what? Or they take it away, or,

or what it could Oh, interesting, yes. What's an

example of that? So you like you would need, you would start a

company and get it trademarked, the name trademarks, but then

you may. Maybe don't do anything for a couple of years with it.

I don't have any examples of people that

haven't done that. I have examples of of companies that

haven't upheld their their rights. So Sony, Oh no, what?

Yeah, Sony had Walkman. Walkman was a trademark. It's no longer

a trademark. Escalator used to be a trademark. Oh,

interesting escalator,

yeah. Um, I know that Xerox is very, very,

uh, aware of people saying that they're xeroxing stuff, because

that is not, that is not right. You, you can copy something with

the photocopier, but you don't Xerox it.

And that's like, Kleenex too. Then I guess,

I don't know if Kleenex has fallen in. I haven't

looked that up, but I, you know, I had, I had a few examples in

my book, but, yeah, those are the ones that I can remember. I

think, yeah, escalator nylon was a trademark as well. So it's

just really, really important that you have your trademark and

then you register it, but you cannot leave it alone. You need

to enforce it as well, and that is also part of the service that

I deliver. Okay,

excellent. All right. So couple of last

questions for you, please, Celeste, the first one is, what

is your best piece of advice that you would give my audience

around what you do? What would you like to leave with them?

I want them to reflect on whatever it is that

they have created, and really know and understand that it has

real value in the world, and as such, it does actually need

tender love and care in the form of either copyright protection

or, well, not either, or actually both, so that they

protect it. And if it is an object, like an iPhone for for

Apple, you know, it's not just the item itself. It is the whole

experience. So the box itself, the way things are organized

inside the box, really, all of that has been thought off, and

they are protecting that. So in Denmark, they refer to something

called trade dress, and it's, it's, it's the packaging of how

something is presented to you as the consumer. So there are so

many things to consider once you have because you know, if you

have a signature program or a new product, or you have made a

new invention, like, say, you've had a massive breakthrough in

medical invention that deserves a protection with a patent. So

it is. It's about sitting back and thinking, Okay, this thing

that I have put all my time, energy, love and maybe even

tears and blood and sweat into it deserves me looking properly

after it. So I'm going to talk to somebody like Celeste and and

have her help me in this situation, you know,

yeah, that's excellent advice. And I'm always

curious. I'm a curious person, and I'm I'm curious to know your

thoughts on curiosity. So do you think that curiosity is innate

or learned? And part two, what are you most curious about

today? So part one, first,

I think maybe it is innate, because there are

people that are just not that curious, and there are people

that, you know almost feel that they themselves are all they

ever need. And you know, that's fine. I'm not judging anyone

here. It's just I think that curiosity is what helps us to be

creative and innovative. And what am I curious about this

conversation today, I was curious about where it would

take us, and I've totally loved this conversation because it has

taken us in many different directions. And that's what I

love. That's what Curiosity will do for you. It will lead you

down different paths, and then you come back, and then you go

down another path. I totally love that. Oh,

excellent. I'm glad that you enjoyed it,

because I guess that's my crazy mind and what happens and and my

curiosity takes over. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you for

being here today. It was most enjoyable and informative as

well. In many ways, I appreciated that, and I hope my

audience does. Two and to that point, thank you for being here.

And please let me know. Let us know if you like what you heard.

And please feel free to get hold of Celeste. Check out her book.

I will leave the information to find her in the show notes. And

remember to stay connected and be remembered. Thank you for

having me. You're welcome.