From Corporate to Creative: How Pursuing Passion Leads to Success with Katherine Lee

Welcome to the speak and flow podcast. Dear listeners. I'm so glad you're here where we share unique experiences to help you unleash your leadership voice today. I am so excited. We have Catherine Lee, she has over a decade of strategy, business development and operations. Um, Leadership. She's led global teams, design teams in the early stage prototyping for fortune 500 companies.

Hi, Catherine. Welcome. Hi there. It's so nice to be here. I'm glad you're here before we dive in. Well, this whole episode is around transitioning up leveling. And sometimes when we're there, when we're doing that, it can feel so uncomfortable. We can ask a lot of questions. What do we do? What's wrong with me?

What's happening. And. And you're in the middle of it. And I really appreciate that you just, you're open to sharing your journey with us. And, um, before we dive into the meat of it, can you tell the audience, like, what have you done in the past and what do you love to do? Yeah, that's a good question because we were talking about that earlier.

Um, so, you know, for me, I, I've always had a career that's been, uh, uh, full of diversity and multiple roles. So I usually play multiple roles at any given time. And I do all these different things because there's always something that I'm looking to learn. So I find that my career is really driven by curiosity and a desire to learn and continue to grow.

And so, um, One of the roles that I've played in the past, like you mentioned, is leading global design teams. And so I had the privilege of working with some amazing, um, interaction designers, graphic designers, industrial designers, um, developers. I'm probably leaving some out. Um, but to build some amazing, innovative prototypes, which the world may never see, because a lot of this is so early stage that it will never get launched.

So, and this was particularly a challenge, as you can imagine during COVID where we had kind of supply chain issues and things like that. So a lot of my work there was how do we. Build cohesive teams across time zones, across disciplines, get everyone speaking the same language. Um, how do we stay oriented towards a common goal?

Um, and then also how do we manage that internal team and then the external client and make sure that everyone is happy and balancing the needs of the end user, and then also balancing the needs of the business. Right. So we got to build some really cool things that are in the public domain, like some work with Converse, for example, and producing sustainable chucks, um, using experimental materials like, um, like vegan leather materials.

We worked with cactus leather and, um, dehydrated mango, and we did some 3D printing. And then also exploring, for example, sustainable dyes. As we know, indigo is a big polluter. Um, so we wanted to find alternative dyes that don't require that amount of pollution. So we looked at some berries that produce different colors.

And if you alter the pH, the color changes. So that was really, really fun because as a designer and as a strategist, you never know what. You know, you're going to encounter the day. It could be, you know, converse in the retail industry, and then tomorrow it could be, you know, mobility. So you kind of have to learn very quickly and then assemble the right team, um, to go for it.

So that was one of my, um, one of the teams that I really loved working with, um, at propellant. Really enjoyed my time there, enjoyed building the team. And then I've had some other experiences on my own or building a company on my own. So right after the MBA, I worked with one of my colleagues, Marisha, and we started a company called Butterfly Effects out in Malaysia, which I had couldn't even identify probably on a map prior to moving there, which was slightly embarrassing.

Um, but I ended up having the greatest time. And so we were focused on financial literacy and working with FinTech providers. Fine. And, you know, financial institutions and others to provide the right content for new users who maybe have not been exposed to the financial system. And so some of the services they're providing were, for example, micro finance or micro loans, or maybe they're doing some savings products or some investment products.

Right. And so we would create the digital content basically that accompanied that, um, to hopefully empower the users. To understand more about the product and also how to be responsible with their own finances. And so that was, um, you know, that was an entrepreneurial journey that was a lot of fun. And I had worked in startups previously, but I found out very quickly that it's different from when you start something on your own, right?

You can observe all you want. You can participate as a team member, but running something on your own is really a unique adventure that any entrepreneur probably can attest to that has this. Highs and lows. And so, um, got to pitch in front of stages with hundreds of people, got to meet some amazing investors, some amazing people in the ecosystem, got to work with the UNCDF in Malaysia, which was amazing.

Um, but, uh, really treasured that journey and, and learning along the way. So those are, Some of the experiences I would say are, have been highlights that, um, that I continue to build on today. Right. Oh my gosh, you obviously have done so much. And I mean, this is why I love being with you because you're so humble about everything.

You're talented, you're smart, and you've done so much and you're so humble about it. So, and then now you've transitioned over to singing. And what led you to, to that? Yeah, it's, it's, you know, it's funny because that's, that's, that's something really, I thought I would be doing at this point in my life. Um, but at the same time, it brings me immense joy.

And so I think. You know, during the pandemic, it felt like we were very status quo. We weren't really going to rock the boat or change things because there's so much uncertainty in the world and there still is. And so I think when we sort of started to emerge from that murkiness in probably 2022 ish timeframe, 2023, A lot of us were thinking various existential thoughts about like, what am I doing with my life?

What is my impact? Am I happy? Am I contributing to the people around me? And so I had a similar realization, I think in 2022 of reconsidering, like, what am I doing with my life? And, um, I think I realized that in some ways I was a little burnt out, maybe a little unhappy. And so I wanted to return to the basics of, What that looks like.

Yeah. And so singing had always been something that I had done. I played uh, the flute and the piano and I thought like, well, I remember this made me happy. And I remember jazz was fun. So why not just try it and see where it takes me? And In a way that was not very characteristic for me, not really set a clear goal to start with just to say, let's just do this.

I don't know what I'm going to do with this thing, but I think it makes me happy. And I'm just going to prioritize happiness, which for us growing up in Asian communities sounds very hedonistic and selfish, honestly. Right. It's like, what is happiness? Does it bring you money? Um, Which for me, I wasn't intending for it to be any of that.

And so anyway, I was very lucky that I was able to join a band at Colburn in downtown LA, and I've been singing with them ever since. And it's brought me to some amazing places. So, you know, I perform in downtown LA once in a while, but I've also gotten to go to new Orleans a few times. And the last time I went, I got to perform with one of the Marcellus brothers, which anyone in jazz knows they're a big deal.

They've won many awards. And I think this guy, his jazz orchestra won best jazz album or something like that. And I just met him after a show and he invited me on and you know, it's like one of those things that are just pinching yourself. And I found myself along the journey as I was singing more and more and getting more exposed of just, sometimes I would be doing something and then just stop and think, why am I doing this?

Doing this, like I should be focusing on getting the next step in my career, whatever it is. Right. So like, why am I doing this? Um, and then I told myself, well, it makes you happy and it's okay to be happy. Um, so long story short. Oh, I mean, if you're experiencing this and I, I trust that usually the episodes will get to the right people.

There are a lot of people out there that are in their jobs doing whatever, not sure about, you know, what's making them happy or burnt out. And for you to take that step into really reflecting and then taking that leap to actually giving yourself this experience, that's a whole privilege. Yeah, it really has been.

Well, and courageously. Of you. Right. Thank you for saying so, . Yeah. And, and, and saying that isn't, maybe it is a privilege, but it's also the part of you receiving what gives you, what makes you happy. Yeah. that I do think that the body tells you when you're feeling good or bad. And one thing I realized over this whole journey was that, um, I had completely neglected it.

Mm-Hmm. . And not as in, I wasn't taking care of myself, but when I was feeling. Something like just didn't make me feel good. I just kind of work past it because we're taught that hey, not everything in life will be pleasant, and you just have to deal with it and if something doesn't feel good, just work through it.

But I started realizing those signals and the more I listened to that, the happier I became and the more things fell in place organically. So it's, yeah, it's very counter to the way I would have worked before. Um, but I'm happy that I had this period to reflect on that and hopefully I take that forward and continue to keep that center.

I'm like, it's just isn't feeling good. I don't have a specific reason why, but the fact that I'm not feeling good, maybe in the case that I shouldn't be doing this, um, or this environment isn't right for me, or I need to make another decision or I need to think about it further. Um, or this makes me feel really good.

And perhaps this is the right thing for me to be doing. And even though I have no specific reason why, um, Maybe it's okay. You know, kind of thing. I totally want to get into that more. Yeah, there's a lot of juiciness about what you said, because you're listening to your intuition, something was telling you wasn't that you weren't working, you're working actually really hard, but a part of you was just not happy.

And so you listen to that. And that led you to doing something that That that was music and made you happy. And so we'll get back into the whole journey about three, even when it's messy. But what, so as you're going down the music and singing, what, how was developing your voice since we're all, yeah. Okay, so that's the funny part.

Well, maybe it's not so funny. So I'm very confident in public speaking. I would say that's my job is really talk to people, whether it's one on one or in front of tens of people or in front of hundreds of people, I've pitched on huge stages and I thought, okay, I'm really good. I'm very confident. And then the first day.

In jazz, um, we were going around and the teacher said solos. So each person takes a solo and I kid you not, I turned so red. I think I could feel myself turning red and I just, I felt so vulnerable. It was like, it was the weirdest thing because I think when I'm in front of a business audience, sometimes you're not yourself.

You, you, you kind of have this, this face or persona. Yes. And sometimes it's more genuine, sometimes it's less genuine depending on the environment, but you kind of protect yourself or shield yourself. And therefore, if you get any comments on the way you speak or in your presentation, it kind of just goes right off of you because you say, well, that's okay because that's just me presenting.

That's not me, but I'm singing that's you. So if you, if someone critiques you, you feel like they don't like you. And that is a big blow to your ego. And so I didn't have a shield and I saw people around me, they all had their instruments so they could hide behind their instrument. But my instrument is my voice.

So it was a very weird situation in many ways, because I thought I'm ready for this. And then I felt the most vulnerable I had ever felt before. And so a lot of the past journey, of course, has been. You know, learning jazz theory and technique, but more than anything, it's been confidence. And I just had a, um, private with one of my first voice teachers.

And he told me you've changed so much. You're so confident now. And I said, yes, like I've been working on this. And so I had to put myself in a lot of situations where I didn't feel confident and for the world, not to tumble down around me. And for me to realize I was still okay for me to finally admit that.

Like, Hey, I am confident. I'm good enough. And you know, I can own the way I want to sound. Um, but that took, you know, like a year to get to that point and constantly putting yourself out there and continuing to say, Hey, I am good enough. Yeah. Put yourself out there and like, and even when you really just did not want to, but the opportunity was there.

And I said, well, I have to take it. I have to take it. I have to do this and just Push, push, push. And, um, eventually, yeah, I was still, of course, experience. Some nerves because I want to be good and I still listen to performances. I think, oh, that wasn't good. But, um, but I have a certain level of confidence that I can fall back onto that.

I know I'm good. You know, yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh, you get you have to get audience like cat stinks. It's so I, when I first heard you, I had the chills and I immediately was like, Oh my goodness. Hopefully I get to see you one day in person. And this is on Instagram and I had chills. I was about to cry. First and I bet she was amazing and phenomenal.

So kudos for you to stepping out there and owning your voice, even though we were scared, even though you could have been judged and super vulnerable. But that's really what makes the voice so powerful is when you can like, yeah. Just open up your heart and sing from that place. Yeah, and I mean, I, and that's what I teach actually also to my clients, even though if you're doing a, a powerful or a presentation, a professional presentation.

Mm-Hmm. to still have like break down the barriers. Yeah. You're good enough. You're good enough. And you continue to speak from that place. Yeah. It's a mind game. It really is. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Because yeah, you, you, part of you wants to protect yourself because if you're, you're afraid you're judged, you're going to be judged and we put up the barrier first, but then usually that's what like, doesn't make the deal happen when you have a barrier to the person.

It's like, Ooh, suspicious. Person. I don't really get this person. Yeah. Or they don't feel human. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the biggest thing actually. I think once I started focusing less on the performance and more on connecting with the people, it became a whole lot easier. And that's what I used to mentor people into is like, you want to get good at presentation.

Stop trying to get things perfect because nobody knows what you were going to present anyway. And it doesn't matter if you hit all the bullet points on your notes. Um, It's more about how they feel afterwards. And if they feel good, they'll engage with you further and you'll have another opportunity, but if there's no one to engage with them, they're not going to do business with you because people want to do business with people, even though, you know, there's all this concern about AI, I think that humanness or humanity is more important than ever and people want to connect.

So that's, that makes it easier. It's actually less stress when you think about it that way. Yes. Yes. That you're just connecting at a human level. That's the foundation foundation and focus on that when you can put all your energy on that would have made that connection. Yeah. And it's easier. Yeah. And so, so now transition you're still going to do music as you venture off and do your, your next evolution of Catherine.

Yeah, I hope so. I definitely hope to keep a permanent space in my schedule for it. I've been doing ballet and dance and other stuff too. And so I hope to keep a space for that because I realized I was kind of always carving into me time. So I want to preserve that. But also I, and I'm open to how it progresses, right?

Because it could go in many different directions. But I'm also really keen to get back to building really cool things with really amazing teams. So I think that's going to be the priority in the next phase, but I'm happy that I had the time to reestablish my identity and figure out things through music and really using it kind of as a, as a.

Therapy in a way. Um, and I'll continue to keep that with me, I think. Right, right. It makes me happy. And so your refuel, refuel and time. And so tell me about, okay, so as you're going, you're narrowing down and talking about, um, what you want to do, like, what was your journey? I think you talked about like you, you had to discover and explore different things.

Um, and then you were able to narrow it down. Yeah. Yeah, we talked about this. So I think, uh, there's a myth or maybe it's not a myth, but there's a myth that you're just going to follow a singular career path and it's going to be linear and you're going to make it to the top of that path. I'm sure for some people, it works for me.

I found that it runs cycles and those cycles follow the curiosity that I was talking about earlier in the growth I was talking about earlier. So I find that every time I take a bit of a break. I go through immense of soul searching and existential angst and talking to people. So I kind of go a little bit around in circles and those circles converge and diverge and get bigger and smaller.

And sometimes I find that I end up in the same exact spot as where I started, but now I have the data points and the confidence and conviction that I'm in the right place. Yeah. So for me, yeah, it kind of was like that. I mean, I had done Few different things in the past and was thinking, do I want to continue down that journey and double down?

Um, do I want to, for those of us that are generalists, there's also kind of a point at which you, I mean, I'm 10 years in, so we kind of think about, do I want to continue to be really good at doing a lot of different things? Do I want to start to specialize in certain sectors and how will that affect my career and prospects going forward?

And so I think. You know, I at first was open to staying broad, um, which, you know, with the consultancy strategy background, that's, that's helpful because you're very adaptive and agile can go into different fields, but then I also felt like I wanted to have a lot of more impact in a certain space and to do that, it's helpful to have more expertise, for example, you know, focusing on FinTech or focusing on healthcare or focusing on mobility or whatever area it might be.

Um, So yeah, I pursued a lot of different options and talked to a lot of different people and looked at things like government and private sector and venture studios and startups. Um, but then now, I mean, at least this current iteration of where I want to be going is to specialize more on continuing to do the design strategy and prototyping that I'm really good at and enjoy.

But focus a little bit more on the intersection between healthcare and design and technology and wellness. I think the pandemic really kind of brought that to the forefront for me. No, seeing how, I mean, we know that healthcare matters, right? But the, um, scope at which we saw it happened, right. And the intensity of that drove that home and also seeing how our healthcare system in the U S still lags behind.

And, uh, there are, You know, a lot maybe faster private solutions to address challenges that we face day to day, particularly in preventative care. So I think that's currently the direction in which I'm pursuing is continuing to leverage the skill sets and not going completely off in a different direction, but just kind of deepening a little bit more in one area.

But yeah, there's a lot of talking to people, a lot of very patient people that I have to thank that have listened to me talk myself in circles. Um, and that's the thing. I mean, for whoever's listening out there, they can be in this. What is happening? Why am I switching again? Or why am I not loving what I'm doing?

Even though I poured so much of my heart into it. Yeah. The journey is allowing yourself to explore, but as you're, this is funny because it happened to me too. I knew what I wanted to do, but I had to go in all these circles and talk to different people. And then come back home to actually present.

Originally it was like, no, I'm not going to do presentation skills, coaching all these different things, but my heart, but then I think it's a part of, like you said, I mean, it's a part of, I think some people do have linear paths and that's great. And other people like you and I, I just need to be in it, you know, allow that exploration process.

Yeah. Um, to be more confident in our, what we want to do and, and then so that we can expand into it with confidence and joy. Yeah. Sorry. I have to grab my treasure. Oh my God. That's okay. Cause okay. Go grab it. Cause we'll pause it and then we can restart it. We're almost done.

Okay. Okay. We're good now. Okay. Yeah. We can edit that out. What was I saying? What were we about to say? Oh, I think I said we were talking about how some people have a linear path and how some people, um, yeah, no, and it's okay. And I think that's it. I don't know what else was there something else I should.

Um, yeah, I think that's it. So maybe I'll just say I'm excited for you for your journey. Yeah, is there anything else you wanted to add? Um, did you want to talk about anything else related to communications? Because I know we didn't talk too much about that. I think that was good. It was really good. No, I think it was fine in terms of, I think the whole piece with the community, the singing part was really important.

Okay, I'm glad I just wanted to make sure we cover the calm side because I know that's what you focus on. So yeah, yeah, no, it's fine. But it's broader than the commute. Yeah, this is good. It was really good. Okay. Um, do you want to promote your Instagram page or do no or do I mean, they're welcome to Yeah, I mean, they're welcome to follow me on there.

I don't want it to sound like an ad, but I mean, I will, I'll post it on my site. When you have it up, I will share the handle on there in case. Okay, maybe one last, um, leadership, uh, golden tip, golden tip that you have for people. Okay. So Catherine, I'm so glad you're able to come back home to, to you every single time through all the different journeys and all the different, um, cycles of expansion.

It's always like coming back home. I think You, we give ourselves what you need. And so you're doing that. And so I appreciate your, your courage or leadership and thanks for your time today. So before we break off and I want, you know, can you share with the audience, what is your leadership takeaway or leadership tip that you can share?

Yeah, I think, um, what I found to be effective or what I strive to do myself is to, first of all, stay curious. I think that that takes us a long way and also gets us out of doing the same thing or expecting to apply the same solution to every challenge. There's always many ways to do many things, right?

So I think curiosity really drives leadership and the curious leaders that I've seen also infect their teams with their curiosity, so that they want to continue to explore and discover and, and, um, yeah, and, and challenge. The status quo, which maybe is not good for every environment, but in the environments I've been that are highly creative and innovative, that's what we look for, right?

Is people that are always learning. I think the other thing is just staying empathetic to the people around you. I think there's been a lot of talk about EQ in addition to IQ, but it's not emphasized enough. And I think it is a skill set that people can tap into and learn. I mean, empathy can be learned, I think, and empathy can be further developed.

But I've seen so many instances in which That's really changed around a situation, whether it's with a direct report you have with a client that you're dealing with. Um, because at the end of the day, we are human, we connect to humans and there are always reasons why people are doing the things they're doing.

Right. Bad day. Maybe it's, right. They're frustrated. And so being able to take a few steps back from a situation and just kind of thinking like, what am I bringing? Maybe what, right. biases or conceptions am I bringing in that might be clouding the way I see this or shaping the way I see this and those could be good or bad.

And then also how is this person coming to the situation and what might be creating this dynamic. And sometimes it's not a situation that you can resolve easily and you just have to say, okay, we're different people and maybe we won't agree, but that's just it. Right. And nobody's right or wrong necessarily.

Or you could say, actually, we have the same goal. We're just communicating past each other, which I've seen multiple times. It's like, you know, until people are arguing and then you're saying there's no, you two are saying the same thing. Stop arguing. You're just not listening. And so I think, yeah, it's said so often, but it's practiced not very often.

And so the more we can take steps back and remove ourselves and our heroes from situations, I think the better. And then, yeah, I think also remembering the human that's at the center. I talk a lot about that because you know, what I did was human centered design. And so I think I had mentioned, you know, and I do a lot of work with emerging technologies and figuring how to integrate that into new products and new services for people.

And there's a lot of debate now with the role of AI, does it replace human jobs? Is it more creative than humans? Smart? There's all these questions and they shape them as binaries, right? I think, you know, there is a way to leverage those capabilities without losing the human. And I think actually it's even more, people are even more valuable now in the age of AI, because there needs to be discretion and as to how we apply it, there needs to be values as to how we apply those things.

Just because something can be done doesn't mean it should be done. So we should always interrogate the solution or the problem we're addressing and figure out if there are other ways of doing it. So yeah, I would encourage people as they kind of develop their leadership or maybe they're at the early stages to remember that.

And then I think all the competencies about how to run meetings or how to be, you know, inspirational or how to get people on task, all those things you'll learn over time. But I think if you don't understand the, the people that you're dealing with, you're never really going to be, um, as, as good of a leader as you would hope.

Yeah, I can see that when they deal with you, you really don't care about them as people. So, um, and wouldn't we like to work with people who care about us as people? I mean, at least I would. Yeah, no, I told it, especially in this today's world with the AI and all the development, I think that your, your two leadership skill sets of curiosity and empathy Because, I mean, we're doing so much, but if you can really hone in on it, I don't know if you can really ever master it, but really just, yeah, hone in, um, continue to practice it, really practice and to get to a very expert master level of curiosity, curiosity in your environment.

And bringing creativity, but also curiosity in others. Bringing empathy in others and within yourself. Yeah, to really, you know, what is here for me? What is this person? What is she about? He about? All of those skill sets, I think. Yeah, that's going to be our best bet. Yeah. Well, I hope people that are making the big decisions.

Um, at products that are going to change the world or, you know, um, platforms that are going to change the world. Exercise those because otherwise it's concerning. Yeah. Because there's, yeah, it's, you know, some of the potential harm is perhaps over heights, but the reality is things are going to be increasingly automated.

And, um, I personally worry about a world in which those systems are not designed with people at the center of them. Right. So I think that's, that is my only fear mongering I will do about emerging technology that is applied because they're all, they're all at first very scary. Um, but I think as long as they're designed with principles that prioritize humans and have values attached, we may not agree on all those values, but at least those people were considered.

We're going to have to just drop the mic right there.

Thank you so much, Catherine. It's so it's been so fun. I've learned so much and I trust that the audience have also learned so much. Thank you. And check out Catherine. She's an amazing singer as well. So beautiful voice. Thank you so much. I appreciate you being here. Until I see you, until I see you next time listeners, thank you for joining.

Bye. Bye.