Overcoming Imposter Syndrome and Climbing the Corporate Ladder with Michelle Ji-Yeun Kim

Welcome to the Speak In Flow podcast where we

dive into strategies, techniques to change the way this world

communicates for the better. I have an amazing leader I can't

wait for you to meet today. Her name is Michelle J Kim. She's a

Reb ops leader, as well as the director of sales strategy and

operations at Zendesk. She also started her very own podcast,

breaking the tech ceiling. I'm excited for you to meet her. So

I dive right in and ask her how does she get herself into the

tech world? Anyways, here we go.

Michelle J Kim: When I was in college, I was like many people

trying to figure out like, what is it that I want to do? What's

my passion? And it was 2008. So part of the you know, there was

an economic downturn at that point. And I had a dichotomy

right out two roads diverged in the woods, as thick as Robert

Frost would say. And I went to DC to see if I could get a job

on Capitol Hill. But then I also had alum in my Korean

traditional drumming group, whose sister was looking for

sales reps. So it was either it's two hands, a hand a bird in

the hand or two in the bush, right? So at that point, you

know, just with my kind of my upbringing and my personality,

more at that time, I would say, I decided to go with a bird in

the hand versus two in the bush, and gotten an introduction to

Director of Sales at a tech company named Irene Chang.

She's, I love her, she's my mentor, she's been my sponsor, I

just can't say enough good things about her. And everyone

feels the same about her. And so I interviewed with her. And, you

know, I definitely was bad at negotiating at the time, and

speaking up for myself. But you know, she didn't get solid and

was like, Michelle, no, that's not how much you need to get

paid more than that. So, you know, I don't think she'll get

in trouble 15 years later from now, but like, she really has

shefford shepherded me through the early part of my career, she

has been someone that I go to Time and again, for career

advice, and for, you know, help whenever I have a situation at

work, or my career that I need some mentorship on. But really,

you know, I've learned over the years that I can't just rely on

this, go back to the same wall over and over again. So I try to

give her a reprieve and try to connect with her whenever I can.

But that's how I got into tech. And just for just for everyone

to know a little bit about me. It wasn't just sales. So I

started my career in SAS software, hardware sales. And

then I went into marketing, and I did programme management. And

then I did CS or customer success operations. And then

I've been at Zendesk now for over four years doing sales

strategy and operations. But I will say that it's been a very

common theme through my life and my career to have been this is

very rare, like not a lot of women executives that I talked

to have had mentors and sponsors in their career that look like

them. And and in the regard of I've had several Asian and Asian

American women leaders in my career, I've been very, very

grateful for that. And it actually stems into or I guess,

ties into kind of the theme of my life, I grew up in the bay

area with 10 aunts, blood relative aunts, my mom is one of

10 kids, she has eight sisters, my dad had two sisters. And, you

know, we were a very, I've been very lucky to have grown up in a

very family oriented environment, we would get

together for barbecues and dinners at my house. And you

know, another avenue you just, you just never know, with your

family. I never really never really clicked for me, but I

actually have an aunt, who is was an SVP at Samsung for many

years. And so, you know, like, I never really talked to her about

career pathing when I was younger, so I really encourage

listeners to think about who's in your environment who's in

your network, because you just never know, like the people who

are your you know, if you're a parent, you know, your soccer

camp, other moms, other dads, you know, like making those

connections and finding out like, kind people and finding

those people who, you know, contribute to the world in a

positive way. I think it's, it's really part of what excites me

in life. Right?

I mean, it just sounds like you were able to

capitalise know who the people in your circle are your

community and it's true. I think that sometimes people

underestimate how in people they do really know. I mean, they

don't like Think it's they don't mean just to do that exercise is

sit down, who can I reach out to or who's in my circle whose

mind, maybe they think about the immediate circle, or never

there's probably a tonne of people outside the broader

circle. And people nowadays I feel like are willing to help

are willing to especially if you are someone that is just genuine

lying to people, you know, we just to be surrounded by these

type of people, and to know who to call to I think people are

just willing to do that to route. Yeah, I mean, look, we

use your really relationships to get in the door for work, and

also learn and have a mentor, which is

Michelle J Kim: rare. Yeah. And I mean, it was really kind of an

accident. I mean, I don't think I was very intentional about it

when I was starting out in my career, but, you know, they say,

I think I had a Berkeley UC Berkeley professor, say, like

your six degrees? Or maybe it's like six degrees away from Kevin

Bacon thing. Yeah, you know, so like, you just never know

who to who never know, especially

Michelle J Kim: the cousin of the doctor, you know. So, yeah,

you

want social media and just say, Hi, how are you

doing? And you just connect? What are your degrees of

conviction? So tell me so what it sounds like you have a

fascinating industry, tech, career journey in the tech

industry, you went through a lot of different different roles,

and you climbed a ladder in the, in the tech industry. So what

are the hardest was one of the hardest things in that industry

as a minority woman leader.

Michelle J Kim: There's two things I'm going to call out

that have been a challenge for me personally. So I think in

general, one of the hardest things about being confident in

the workplace for myself is self doubt. And I don't know if

you're familiar with the different types of imposter

syndrome that exist. And I don't I actually even don't even like

that expression of imposter syndrome, because I don't think

it's, it's not a syndrome, it's something that, you know, many

people feel as a result of, you know, what, pressures we that

are expected, you know, expectations of us. But, you

know, I, I have a lot of, quote unquote, impostor syndrome

around like, not being not knowing enough not being an

expert. But, you know, I know a lot. I mean, there's a reason

I've changed roles I've been promoted at Zendesk, I've been

here, for four years, I got promoted twice within the first

few years. And so you know, it's not, it's not for nothing. But I

would say that, as a female, as a Asian American. in tech, it's,

it's really hard when I have that self doubt, and I'm doing

everything I can to build my confidence to build my

competency, so I can feel more competent, because I'm confident

because that's, you know, where my, where my, where my

challenges are. But I think two challenges, specifically one is,

and this is just the case, it's not me calling out good or bad.

But the majority of leaders that I work with, are white men. And

I already doubt myself enough. But when there are white men in

the room, who start to doubt me in a public forum, that's really

hard. And I take it kind of personally, and I really, I work

with an executive coach that got mentors, but that's something

that's been really hard for me to overcome. And I try my best

to just shake it off, right, dust off your shoulder, get up.

And don't take things personally. But you know, when

people question your expertise, and you have to constantly

reinforce and reiterate that you are the expert, that you have a

lot of the domain knowledge that you have information that they

don't, that is exhausting. And then I say the second thing

that's really hard, is just constantly being interrupted and

talked over. And I don't think people realise, at least in my

personal experience, and I can only speak to my experience,

right? I grew up in a culture where you're not supposed to

speak over people. You're not supposed to speak back to your

elders, and it's taken 15 plus years of experience in the

corporate space to realise you know what, unfortunately,

sometimes I do have to talk over people, because otherwise I

won't get heard. And so, you know, I've been told like, I was

really surprised because I'm someone who's quite vocal, and I

will share my opinions. And so I've tried very intentionally to

do less of that sometimes because sometimes it's not

warranted. But you know, What's conflicting? Right? Because when

we're the theme is executive presence, you need to speak up

and be heard. But what's the balance right? When you have

people who are constant interrupters, people who just go

on and on and on, it's really hard to get a word. And so I've

really been intentional about trying to choose my words

wisely, take pauses, give people time to react, take some time

before I react. And before I say something, and obviously, I'm

not perfect, but those are two challenges that I've faced, just

from like a, you know, my personality and how I have shown

up in my life prior to gaining more confidence, I would say.

And just like from a cultural background, right, like, even

though I'm very much a Americanized person, I was born

in the United States, my parents immigrated here they met, and

they had me I was born in the Bay Area. But I'm gonna

reference Jane Hans book, breaking the bamboo ceiling

where she talks about, you know, cultural assimilation, which I

am very much an American. But it takes generations to get past

the value, values assimilation. So it'll always be hard for me

to it's not hard, necessarily, but it always will feel a little

weird to me to kind of like speak over people or like, you

know, just because I'm not getting a chance to be heard. So

I think that all plays into executive presence and

communicating with executive presence, because there's a

degree of forcefulness that has been traditionally been marked

or identified or treated to executive presence that I think,

really thankfully, as I'm seeing more, you know, millennials more

Gen Z, or people, younger people enter the workforce, that's no

longer really acceptable. So I'm actually very excited for that

time when I won't have to force myself into the conversation.

Yeah. Oh,

my gosh, thank you so much for sharing that. That

really means a lot. I mean, I think that it's very inspiring,

because when I met you, but we were at the same conference, we

kept you know, we hit it off, had a great conversation, it was

a great conference, and I was one of the speakers. And then

Michelle and I met, we got a chance to talk and you just

exude so much confidence, you have you, you're a leader in

your industry. And then so to hear this backstory, it just,

it's so inspirational, because we all have this, so it does, it

helps us not feel alone. Because we have all been there where

we're trying so hard, we're doing everything that we can

know, you know, to be the expert in the industry, and then to be

put on the spot to be able to, to where people are addressing

or asking you questions to make you seem like you don't know

things, it's so it can be very tough, and to not be spoken

over. And so thank you so much to share that so that we

everybody can all have a connection that way. And so can

you share what what like any tips, any advice? What are some

of the techniques that you learned along the way?

Michelle J Kim: So I would really figure out, what is it

that stopping you from being confident? Or I guess that is it

because you just don't know enough? And that could be valid,

right? Like there are times when you just don't know enough to

study up, you need to learn, you need to research you need to

interview people. So for me, I've always like the

stereotypical, I've always been an excellent student, I learned

really well in classroom settings. I'm an auditory

learner. And so, you know, and obviously, like, application is

important too. But I've been very blessed to have a learning

style that allows me to learn not necessarily by doing so

finding out your own learning style and figuring out like, is

it because I don't know enough? Is it because I'm not

comfortable with the material? So whatever it is that you're

not feeling confident in pinpoint? Why is it like

question yourself, stop yourself. And I'm really proud

of myself because I would say that for most of my life, I had

a lot of negative self talk. And it was really unwarranted. Like

I said, I was like, top of my class, I went to UC Berkeley,

very successful, outwardly successful person, you know, had

multiple jobs at like companies like Seagate, LinkedIn, but I

just never had that confidence in myself. I sat back and I

asked like, what the heck why?

Right. So this is a clear discernment, right? Is it

that you don't know enough because sometimes it is the lack

of knowledge. But then there's other times where you're

studying and studying and then you just have to stop that.

There's just so much more that you can continue to study and

then at They're knowing and having that discernment of I

know enough for today, and then deciding whether okay, even now

that I know enough, is it still that I have the lack of

confidence? Yeah. And I think what

Michelle J Kim: I really learned is, I'm very confident in my

ability to learn and figure it out and get, right. So find out

what your strengths are, find out what will help you shine

best. What do you enjoy? I think, you know, there's this

preconception or idea that, you know, maybe it's society, maybe

it's media, it's like, we have to be all, we all have to be so

well rounded, we have to be good at everything. No, it's fine to

like what you like, and it's fine to do more of what you're

good at, because that will help build your confidence. And I

really challenged myself to go out of my comfort zone, and try

different things like how the heck am I supposed to create a

podcast? Like, you know, this, it really came out of me taking

a class because my my friend was starting one. And I was like,

why? No, I've spent a lot of time in the in the fall like

working really hard at work. And I just decided I want to

dedicate two hours a week for just a few weeks on how to learn

this new thing. And that's, that's what started that

podcast. And like, I just didn't know, and you don't know things

from at least like I said, for myself, I don't have as much

confidence. But once I learned, like, Oh, this is this is all

you need to do. I can do it. And you just try it and you put

yourself out there. And you know, just in the case of my

podcast, it's really opened a lot of doors for me. And it's

really more than that I get messages from strangers, saying,

oh my gosh, thanks for doing this. This has inspired me or

like, you know, this was really helpful. So that's really all I

want to do. I you know, I am very lucky to have found a

career and a space that I'm thriving in. And so what can I

do to give back and help others feel that same sense of

achievement and success? Because it's available to all of us if

we can access it? Yeah,

yeah. Yeah. So like, you're stretching

yourself, putting yourself out there. When you're doing

something fresh, new, you have knowledge you do the studying.

But once you have that, than just continuing to do yourself,

the favour of stretching yourself taking the risk, yes,

it's gonna be uncomfortable, like your podcasts in the

beginning, it's a little uncomfortable, what am I doing?

And then eventually you get there, and then the confidence

builds, and then you're like, oh, okay, I figured that's how

you do it. It's not too bad. It's very uncomfortable in the

beginning with anything that we're learning anything new. And

Michelle J Kim: there's, I think, I just cannot remember

her name. But she's actually the the, there's a woman, I think

she's maybe the founder of Girls Who Code, I can't recall. But

just, I think for women, we as children, specifically, at least

the United States, we're kind of conditioned right to just be

perfect to, like, get good grades to be polite. And

sometimes boys are more encouraged to try and, you know,

be encouraged to try you know, and so I think that's part of

how I was conditioned, not necessarily through any fault of

my mom, or my dad or anything, it's just like the way society

is. And so for myself, like I said, I've been successful. In

my academic career, I've been successful in a lot of ways. But

many times I just always had this fear of failure. And you

know, what, one day I just decided, like, I need to just

try to fail more, if that makes sense, because I don't if I'm

not failing, am I really growing? So, you know, just keep

you got to keep at it. You got to keep trying new things. And,

you know, it's a balance of trying to do the things that I

love that I like that I'm good at, and but also pushing myself

to do things that I haven't ever done before. or learning about

things that I don't know about. And just approaching things with

curiosity rather than worry or fear is something I continue to

challenge myself to do every day.

Mm hmm. Oh, I love that. Very inspirational. And a

good reminder, a good, good reason to step out and look at

not be so afraid of failure. And want to revisit back the the

conversation you were just mentioning when people talk over

you or there had been meetings or people would talk over you

any tips on what would you do in that situation?

Michelle J Kim: I'm going to cite a person that I learned a

lot from in terms of executive communication. I used to work

with Jamie buss who was the SVP of sales North America sales

Zendesk when I started and she has since moved on. She has a

CRO now, which is amazing. But I learned from Jamie, that pre

socialisation is really key. So if you and as an addition, I was

a programme manager. So you know, running meetings and

figuring out like power dynamics in the meeting is very important

and you need to be aware of those things. But if you can set

yourself up for success in a meeting, so that you've already

pre socialised with the potential naysayers, you know,

there are certain people you know them who are going to speak

up or disagree or be, you know, have grumblings So figuring out

how can you neutralise that almost not threat, but like

situation in advance, and be helpful? If you can find your

allies, like, you know, certain people agree with you, your

manager is going to be on the call with you? How can you work

together to reinforce the message? You know, figuring that

out? I think that's a really good practice to try and do I

know, we're all so busy that it seems like how do I find the

time to meet with this individual person before the

group meeting? But when you're in a group meeting, airtime is

very valuable? And if you haven't sorted out in advance,

like what is the purpose of the meeting? What is our goal? What

is the expectation of the people in the meeting? Are they there

to contribute ideas? Are they are we there to make a decision?

Are we there to be informed? I think making a very clear

purpose for the meeting, if it's yours is really important. So

those are just some some tips. I would say if you are the meeting

attendee and it's not your meeting. I think it's hard, it's

the best you can do is really like if I employed this a few

times, even just today, you know, if so many people are in

the meeting, and no one's giving you a chance to talk. I put it

in as the Zoom chat. Mm hmm. Hopefully, you know, usually

there will be someone who's like keeping an eye on it. And

hopefully the most senior person in the room or the meeting owner

or someone will look at that and acknowledge that. And so that's

like one way to kind of make your voice heard. And I think as

a leader, as leaders, yes, we need to set that example, too.

Because if I'm going on and on and on as a leader, the most

senior person on the call, and I don't check the chat, or I don't

notice people's like facial expressions, and I just go on

and on. Like, you're just what's, what's the whole point?

That's not executive communication? It's like doing a

monologue. Yes. I don't know if that's like one tactical helpful

tip. I think just getting mentorship, I mean, it's all

just experience, like I'm a really huge proponent of

mentorship, a part of a free community called Women in

revenue. And we have, they have a mentorship programme that's

free. But just talking to people who are good at that, like not

being talked to her is another tactic, getting some mentorship,

like if you notice, like you're in a room, Zoom Room with 10

people. And you know, someone gets talked over and you notice

that they handle it gracefully. talk to that person, ask them

for Hey, can I buy you a coffee? And can I chat with you about

how you dealt with that situation? Because, man, I would

really love to be able to do that myself. I think that's

another kind of tactical tip that you can employ as well

finding a mentor someone in your organisation and your company in

your team that handles those situations. Well,

right. I think actually, your tips are so

powerful, too. I mean, I think that there are key and anyone

who's listening who's struggling with this, just staying in touch

with what Michelle just said and committed to it. I think we'll

go it just meeting with the people the pre networking, the

pre socialisation before any with the naysayers, and then

also find your allies. Those are huge. And then again, if you're

still not feeling heard, you can use the chat and then reach out

to a mentor.

Michelle J Kim: Yeah, and if it's happening to repeatedly

Yeah, you know, it could also be just an indication of the

culture. Right, the culture of the company. Like I'm very

grateful because Zendesk has a great culture. But yeah, there

are times you know, to be frank and when that does happen. But

yeah, really being conscious of like, what environment are you

in? On a day to day basis? And are you okay with this? Yes.

And, you know, are people aware, their self awareness is such a

big part of being a leader and executive presence. They can't

self diagnose, like, oh, shoot, I made that person feel really

small by saying things this way. Like that's, that's something

that, you know, is really important to be cognizant of.

And You know, what does executive presence mean to me?

Well, I'm still figuring out but one thing that I want to point

our listeners to is a Harvard Business Review article called

The New Rules of executive presence, where they did a

comparison, it was a study, I think they must have done

surveys back in 2012. And they did the same kind of survey 10

years later in 2022. And back, then, you know, I think they

kind of have a couple of categories, grab a toss,

communication, and appearance. And things have shifted, like,

in a good way, you know, 1010 years ago, like, I think

confidence and decisiveness are still very important parts of

gravitas, but 10 years ago, pedigree like where you came out

of school, like that was really important part of your gravitas.

And now, I'm so excited that this is part of, you know, how

things are moving. inclusiveness and respect for others are

actually have replaced Marvel three. And that's important, I

think, you know, in addition to gravitas, your communication,

then it was, you know, like I said, being forceful or joking

or bantering, you know, jokes and banter. And those have gone

out of trend. And now it's more presence on Zoom. Like, how can

you communicate well on Zoom effectively with Zoom? Yeah. And

how do you are you listening to learn? Or are you just like I

said, it's like, is it forceful? Or are you there to receive and

actually listen and give your opinion and thoughts on the

matter in a way that is reflective of actual active

listening, right. And then, in addition to grab a toss and

communication, appearance, so like, I just thought it was so

fascinating, because 10 years ago, people ranked physical

attractiveness, tallness, slimness as high factors for

contributing to like, this is what executive presence looks

like. And I was so happy to see like, 10 years later, that's

those are not on the list at all. It's actually more

authenticity. And surprisingly, not just your ability to show up

in person. But your online presence, like your social media

presence is also another indicator of executive presence.

And so I all credit, finding this article through Peter on

who is a tech sales coach. And yeah, after he shared that

article, I just was like, wow, this is such a positive thing,

right? To show that it's evolved so much, even just in 10 years.

So, you know, that's, that's kind of what you know, I'm

figuring it out. But I'm really glad to see out in the world

that things are moving in a direction where it's less what

is the right word for this less old traditional old school?

Yeah.

Cold knowledge. Like yes, you it's great to have

the pedigree and the expertise but I think it just without just

with that component alone is not sufficient. Absolutely. No.

Yeah. And I love the authenticity part is in there,

that's awesome.

Michelle J Kim: I would say it's kind of a tough spot to be a

millennial, because you kind of still like the people who are my

managers and VPs are still there older than me generally. And

they might still have the older perception of executive

presence, right executive communication, they might still

have that there are definitely a lot of great amazing leaders

I've worked with who are actually trending more toward

like this new this new definition of executive

presence. But it's it's a balance of like, okay, how

authentic can I really be with this person? You know, like,

because I'm a pretty off like I'm very authentic. It's hard

for me to hide who I am and I'm so grateful to work with the

younger generation of Gen Z alpha who are just like they

love it. They want to be real they want people who are real

with them in a real be real Yeah, it's a line down so

yeah, to answer that I mean, reflecting back on

your career and we don't have that much more time but I just

have so many questions for you we could probably do a part two

but just Michelle you're you bit your success and you grow you've

expanded in your role and adopt a new roles like work could you

credit, your expansion your development, your growth, your

new climbing up the ladder to is competence or executive presence

a part of that?

Michelle J Kim: Yeah. So I always say that Competence and

Confidence go hand in hand like they really do like for me, you

cannot, there is no reason you should be confident if you have

no credibility. Right. Right. So and it's a question of like,

well, how much is enough? Michelle? And yeah, it's you

just always have to have that shoshan That beginner's mindset

always willing to learn and grow? Yeah. So I think for

myself, even

okay, even as you're beginning to learn and

grow, still having the confidence. Yeah.

Michelle J Kim: Which is like, like I said, I've discovered I

really, I am confident in my ability to learn, yes. So

figuring out like, what is it you're good at? And how can you

develop in those areas in like a safer, quote, unquote, safer

way? Yeah. But really, I will say, of outside of the podcasts,

which I just said, ended my season one of breaking the tech

ceiling, where I interview VP and sea level woman and go to

market tech roles about how to get from director, Senior

Director to VP, from VP to sea level, in revenue roles. And

after talking to not just those women, but they almost probably

100, plus tech executives across many different functions. You

just don't advance your career unless you're intentional about

it. And for me, so I do strategy and operations. So thinking

about my life and my career from a strategy and operations

perspective, what's the end goal for me? And what are the steps

for me to take to get to those points. And sometimes you don't

always need to have like an end goal in mind, maybe it's fine to

stay where you are, maybe you don't need that promotion. And

maybe there are other ways to enrich your life, but only you

can decide what is right for you. So a big part of what I do.

And what I'm passionate about, is professional development and

goal setting. And I literally have some I have a F in front of

me, I have it with me always. It's called the purpose planner,

I have a planner that I live and die by. And what's really helped

me I used to have a lot of negative self talk. And I've

helped quiet that because I write things down. I don't want

to keep things in my brain, we need to save our brain capacity,

like processing capacity for important things not, you know,

I have to remember to pay, do my taxes, I need to remember, like

these are all things that you can schedule. So I'm I'm very

much a proponent of planning out your life and your career. And

this is not for everyone, like really not for everyone. Some

people hate that. My husband and I are very opposite. He doesn't

like to have a plan. He won't even tell me when he's coming

home for dinner. So it's like, someone who's like, I want to

know what meals I'm having the rest of the week. So it's, you

know, just it's different for everyone. But for me, that's

what's worked. Yeah, absolutely. Trying to figure out what can I

learn. Last year, I had a goal to be a better speaker, public

speaker. And I took Stanford continuing study classes at

Stanford Continuing Studies class, a woman named Amy Eliza

long, she's amazing. And that was so powerful, and like doing

all these other things. In addition to that, that I won't,

I won't go into too much detail here. But you know, culminating

to going to your workshop, Melinda, and you had us all do

an exercise in small groups. And, like, share, like what was

like a one minute, like something you're passionate

about, do one minute little, you know, chat on what you're

passionate about to your small group. And everyone gives

feedback. And I was just so proud of myself in that moment,

because I nailed it. I killed it without any sort of preparation.

And so, you know, that just really made me happy to be in a

spot in my life in a skill area that I concentrated on improving

and seeing it pay out in that way. So yeah, so I really I

really believe in that the power, right of intentionality

of planning, like I said, all of those executives that I've

worked with, when I asked, How did you go from it? Was it an

accident? No, it was never an accident. There's a lot of

things that need to go right, in order to go from a director,

Senior Director to a VP from a VP to sea level. And you know,

there's different things required at different levels.

And it's not just going to happen to you can't just sit and

wait around and pray that you're going to get that promotion.

I agree. I agree. I love that. Yeah, I have the

intentionality. What are the things that I need to do? How

can I stretch myself? How can I fail fast and learn Quickly get

feedback, get a mentor, and move up and not be afraid of those

things. And then you'll watch yourself just when you focus on

something like you like, focus on the speaking. And as soon as

you focus yourself, of course, you're gonna make mistakes along

the way. But then once you do that, then you can expand and

then you you look back and you say, oh, my gosh, I did it. And

now, now we can move on to something else. Yeah,

Michelle J Kim: and I want to say one, one thing, I, I really

am a proponent of mentorship. But as I mentioned, at the

beginning of this conversation, like I don't go to my mentor

anymore for every single thing, because it's not sustainable. I

highly recommend people who are serious about career

progression, find yourself a career coach, find yourself an

executive coach, and have that person, be your or even find a

group coaching, right? Worst case go to a better is a better

a better prop. No better up as a teaching a coach, you got it.

Got it. That's the worst case study, you can find coaches. But

if you're serious about career growth and career progression, I

really recommend finding a coach that will hold you help you hold

yourself accountable, yes, to do everything for you. But like,

you know, just for me, that was another big shift in my career

journey. When I was sponsored for a career career coaching

programme at Zendesk, it was very lucky for that. Thankful,

and I'm thankful for it. Because dedicating it was a 30 minute

call every two weeks. And I always prepared 10 minutes

before like, it wasn't even like, you know, a long time it

wasn't an advanced was just literally 10 minutes before that

call, I sat down and I wrote down, what is it that's going on

in my career in my role in my life that I want to talk to

about this coach. And that really helped accelerate things

for me. You know, it's not, I always talk about mentorship.

But it's not enough. Like if you really want to invest in

yourself, it'll pay off into this now. Yeah, first that

I totally Yeah, because it gets it out of the

head, you have so many bounced, you know, somebody you trust

that you can bounce ideas off of, and just support you along

your journey along the obstacles and kind of overcoming them. And

so, I love that. Thank you so much, Michelle, I had so much

fun with you. Thank you, lots of great insight. I learned a lot.

I trust that the listeners got some really good golden

takeaways. And so really appreciate your time, Michelle,

your leadership, your expertise and helping us grow. Think about

executive communication and how to break that glass ceiling,

whether in the tech industry or whether in any industry, I think

that you've got some good nuggets from Michelle today. So

thank you,

Michelle J Kim: thank you so much for having me. Yeah, I

really, really thoughtful. And I really hope people become

intentional about how they want to spend their time on this

earth. And it doesn't have to be your career. Just Just know that

just figure out what it is that's right for you in this

time. To change you can change your mind. But you know, don't

stress out so much. This is kind of like the parting advice that

I would give

to what are the memories that you want to have

hold for yourself? Yeah, to take away. Oh, thank you so much. And

thank you, dear listeners for joining me until the next time I

see you Take care. Bye bye