EP094: From UN Refugee Camps to Law Firms: Vanessa Shaw’s Unique Empowerment for Women in The Legal Profession

So we start to unpack those tolerations and find ways to frankly eliminate them or reduce them at the least, so that when our attorneys are working towards their vision, they're actually we're doing it by simplifying not by adding more complexity. And when we know when we stop tolerating certain things, it means that we necessarily are going to be raising our standards.

Welcome to the 10 Golden Rules of internet marketing for law firms podcast, featuring the latest strategies and techniques to drive traffic to your website and convert that traffic into clients. Now, here's the founder and CEO of 10 golden rules, Jay Berkowitz.

Well, good morning, good afternoon. Good evening, whatever time this podcast finds you. Welcome to the 10 Golden Rules of internet marketing for law firms podcast, we have a great guest today. Vanessa Shaw, from Business Growth Academy is with me, and we'll get to her in just one second. Real quick, if you don't mind, if you've listened to a few of our shows, and you like him, please take two minutes and either click the subscribe button on YouTube or the follow wherever you're on iTunes or Spotify. It helps us if we you know, if we have a lot more subscribers, we look a little bit better to our potential guests. And we get great guests like Vanessa shot today. A couple of things about Vanessa, she'll she'll tell us all about her background, but she's from Britain. And she will be the second amazing person who coaches law firms whose honor our podcasts and you all have probably heard a couple interviews with John McCarthy, the law firm profit coach, and John is just amazing. And he came and he spoke at Teach our live our live event. And I know you all are going to love Vanessa. And with that, no further ado, Vanessa, welcome to the table.

Thank you. I'm excited for our conversation that's going to unfold. So thank you for having me. Yeah, so

you know, fruit before you get into the business growth Academy. Tell us how you got there. Tell us a little bit about your background and working at the UN and all the amazing things you've done. Right?

I know very different backgrounds. So yes, I quickly pieced it together because otherwise it leaves open loops in people's minds. I am British as you can, as listeners can hear. And I studied languages at University in England, French and Spanish and economics, honestly didn't have a clue what I was going to do with them. And ended up getting an opportunity to go across to Switzerland for a three month temporary contract to work in one of the UN agencies. And it was actually a big exhibition building arm for for telecoms back in the day. And I was miserable at the time, I had gone into the city of London to work in underwriting and reinsurance. I was following in my big brother's footsteps, thinking he was cool. I was so miserable. I was so bored. I was like commuting up to London, four hours a day because it was two hours door to door each way. So when this opportunity came for Switzerland, and frankly, I just needed a ticket out of what I was doing. And I hopped on over there. And then 21 years later, is when I actually left Switzerland and moved to the States. I actually live in Arizona, and that happened 12 years ago. But the little bit of the UN kind of story there is Yeah, started on a three month contract. And I worked as I say in this exhibition arm, which was very exciting around telecoms and everything. And then I hopped into another organization, and then literally probably did hop because all those organizations are very close together. It's like a big network. And I got myself a position with the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, which was I really loved that organization. I had a couple of roles there that I found very, very rewarding and challenging. One was actually scheduling the airlift into Sarajevo during the Yugoslav War, and working with different military around the world, again, demanding but like super fulfilling, and another was actually going out to the CIS republics, like the former USSR, and teaching governments about the difference between asylum law and refugee law. And the link for that that is kind of important is I was the non attorney traveling with a group of attorneys inside of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. And that was honestly my first time of kind of being around attorneys. I was the coordinator. I was having to do all the logistics we were going to all these different republics. I just kind of was intrigued, you know, it's like, well, they have like really cool work that they do. So it never, I never, it never took me down the path of I want to become an attorney. But years later, I was reinventing myself, I actually given up the work in the UN my husband's career taken off in a big global career, I wanted to do the family thing, and did the stay at home mom thing for nine years, which is very challenging, actually, as part of a career, full time work, real full time work. And you know, not a lot of pay, not a lot of not a lot of free time. And then I was reinventing myself, and I knew full well, I wasn't going to go back to the UN, two of us in the family would have been too much. And I'd had just had too much freedom at that point. And so reinvented myself as a life coach back in the day. So we're talking about 20 years ago now, and focused on health and well being. And that was kind of my starting out place, because that's what I knew. And it was a place, I felt confident that I could start my own practice. And very, very, very early on in that journey. And again, the real story is there was no encounter on a coaching certificate. I wasn't even like fully qualified, but I was, you know, putting it out into the universe that I was ready to take on clients. And I actually met the husband of one of my female clients, who was looking for some help around, just being in peak performance, he was dealing with a lot of stress, he was traveling a lot. And of course, I'm like, you know, building my practice in the early days. And what I didn't realize is that he was the managing partner of Europe's largest law law firm at the time. And he was, so all of a sudden, I've got this, you know, Attorney thing that's kind of starting again. And we would just, you know, actually, I have incredibly fond memories. And we're actually going to be meeting up again, in Europe this summer, when I go back, we actually haven't seen each other for years. For me, I would, I would actually take him out kind of in the Prealps he wanted to work out, walk, like download, it's a just asked me some questions, I just need to be like, you know, prepare myself for the week. And I loved that time with him, I found it really, really stimulating. He later told me that was like the highlight of his week. And about probably six months in, he said, You know, I'd like to invite you in to come and actually pitch to the law firm. Because what you're doing for me, I've got attorneys that are worth an awful lot of money, they are burning out, they've got a lot of stress, a lot of stresses that are going on outside of the firm as well. And I really believe in coaching, I really believe in giving support, you know, like in a holistic way. And so are you up for flying into London and pitching to our top partners in the equity partners to see if we can launch a coaching program. And again, we are talking as a nearly 20 years ago now. So coaching in Europe, you know, coaching in the States was already probably about 10 years ahead, coaching in the UK had started coaching now in Eastern Europe, which ended up being like the most of the countries that I was working with, was unheard of. So this was very, very new. And I pitched it, we got enough buy in to kind of get the beta program started. And then I realized as well that with all the countries that I would be dealing with and the jurisdictions, I was like, shoot, I'm going to be traveling an awful lot. And that's not what I want to do. I've got young kids, and my husband is still traveling the globe. And so I pitched it to them as a virtual coaching program. Again, unheard of your time. Yeah. Right unheard of time. And so my claim to fame that probably can't be really, you know, supported anywhere, but I'll grab it is, I believe that I created the first major virtual coaching program inside a major law firm. And it really took off it was again, it was a lot of fun partners. Of course back in the day, you know, very skeptical, what is this? Who's this woman? She's a non attorney, how can she help us and then they, you know, gradually got on board width. It's really great to have a sounding board. It's great to have somebody from the outside that thinks very differently. And so this program took off. And so what started as peak performance ended up really morphing into executive coaching. Because once I

want to get into the coaching and women and I just before we get too far away, I want you to tell us one amazing story from your time at the UN. One

amazing story. Oh, oh So, let me think

you have dozens, but you know, what's it like airlifting into Sarajevo in the middle of a war?

One amazing story, but it's the one the minute you ask that question, actually. And it's a really sad story. And it was one day when we felt like we were doing some really good things, right, you're airlifting in supplies, journalists to keep, you know, cover the the news coverage, and made evacs. So people that needed to get out that were in desperate, desperate need. And actually, one of my really sad stories was that I needed to get a young girl medivac back in, we'd met her back to out, and she was actually dying. And so she was probably an 11 year old child. And I was having to work with NGOs and everything, and to make sure that we were basically flying a child back home to be with her parents.

Oh, that's so nice. And that that one,

it felt obviously meaningful, that you're making that contribution. But of course, that was one of those ones that really hit home of the like the seriousness of what we were doing,

and tragic that you couldn't make the save, you know,

absolutely tragic.

Thank you for all your, your many years of helping people, because you told me some of the other stories. It's fantastic. So the question I had from that time, why were there so many attorneys in that those un roles.

So this was just it was just to do with the nature of the bureaus that I was working for, and they would have what we call desk officers, and many of them had had legal backgrounds. And again, because of the work that I was involved in, especially once we got into the refugee agency. Now they need, you know, there were a lot of people that needed a legal training in international law. You know, there was, and then, you know, the immigration law,

because you're moving people and supplies and exactly, dealing with countries and politic.

Yeah, so that was that. Yeah, the the link. I

can't even imagine the complexity of it. All. Right. Well, you know, what's one of the things that you took from the time that you really started to apply to helping law firms? And, and let's get into some of the really tangible tips for law firms? Yeah,

so I would say in all honesty, I mean, there's not a lot from the UN side of things. I mean, there is but you know, that these are very, very different worlds. And for me, there was many years that have passed in between, right. So I think the big piece that I can bring to the table from that UN piece is definitely a level of diplomacy, a level of dealing with many, many different cultures, ethnicities, languages, you know, just that difference that for me, was so normal, every single day, that's what I'm, you know, that's just the the, you know, the air I'm breathing, which for other people isn't. So I think I, you know, I see the world through a very different lens because of that. And then I would say, once I started to really work with the, you know, attorney, so I've now got this, you know, coaching program that we're building. What was really interesting there, and what I discovered for myself was that there were really two types of attorneys. There were the attorneys that actually loved doing the law. And they really prided themselves on you know, the practice of law. And then there were the attorneys that were more of the rainmakers. And we we used to call them like, intrapreneurs. Like they weren't, you know, entrepreneurs, because they obviously had their own book of business that they had to grow and retain everything. But it was those rainmakers and those intrapreneurs that I really loved working with.

Talked a little bit about Eos, the Entrepreneurial Operating System, and they're the Canaries right, they're the the rainmakers bring the work into the firm's. And then they typically have a partner, who's the integrator, who, you know, we used to call a CEO and Chief Operating Officer, so, you know, Director of Operations, who make stuff happen on day to day basis and, and holds both the visionary at bay with all their ideas, like I just came back from a conference, and I've got a book 20 things I want to our firm to do. And they're like, whoa, whoa, yeah, you can do the easy one, but like the other 19 We'll have to save for a rock discussion next quarter. Totally,

totally. And so and then what was really happening is, so as I started to discover there was a certain type that I really really enjoyed working with, they wanted to build teams, they wanted to get bigger cases, right? They wanted, they kind of thrived off, like the complexity of learning. And then I was just naturally learning a lot around their business development, because again, they're sharing, right, their ideas, I'm a sounding board. And so you know, I was then helping them with business development, some of them are wanting to go off into China and open new markets or off into Russia, like really, like really big things. And so I think there was that side that I found just fascinating, that the other side of it, which I is still a place that I bring a lot to the table with today is attorneys, you know, I mean, a they're not taught how to grow business in law school. That's one thing. So if the internal training is their buy in to develop a book of business, but then not they're not in this entrepreneurial world in the same way that say, you and I aren't things that systems like Eos, right. And all those books that you and I probably like devour. Yeah, the other piece is I discovered as well, but like soft skills, and personal leadership is like the massive, massive missing link. And everything was about technical skills. And so as I was now inside and developing this program further, and I become acutely aware of their stress levels, the stress that's affecting performance, lack of EQ, or let's say, lack of EQ, or emotional intelligence, like real opportunities as they were going to be growing up in their in their roles. These are pieces that were just completely missing an absence. And as I say, people often call them like these soft skills as if well, we don't really need to worry about that. But yeah, they were the very things that were getting in the way. So this became, you know, I was then developing, I love to test, like, if they were open to it, I mean, like, Are you open to us having some new discussions, coming, kinda like test some ideas here, so that we could bring things like emotional intelligence, resilience, stress management into the organization as part of that program? Right.

And your sweet spot today is dealing with women attorneys, right? Yes. Yeah. So how did that evolve? And what, what are some of the skills that you teach for women that, you know, is become your niche?

Yeah. So again, interestingly, back then my practice would have been 80 90% Men, when I moved to the States, I was already I'm wanting to flip and really start working with a lot more women, partly because there are just some very unique, you know, challenges that women have, certainly in terms of leadership roles, stereotypes, you know, in, there's so many concerns about how women are perceived when they want to get ahead. So with guys, and again, we're talking general right here, of course, there are always exceptions. But you know, for generally speaking, for men, it's totally okay, more than okay to be ambitious, right. It's like you are rewarded for

that. Women we are, especially in this country,

especially in this country.

You know, like, like you came from the UK, I came from Canada. And you know, it's almost like, it's not expected and it's not classy, to be vicious and to be net, like networking was a swear word, when I grew up. And here, it's just, you know, fantastic entrepreneurism, but it takes a little time to adjust. totally

right. And it's that go getter and everything is to say, obviously, there's cultural differences. But you know, women that really want to go for it, you know, I mean, this is why I say that ambition, you know, ambitious becomes ambitious, right? They are perceived poorly. And then women start to think that they have to be a certain way to get ahead, because most of the role models have been male, and particularly in law firms. And I was privy to conversations with women were again, they were very stressed, they were might have been dealing with aging parents, they, you know, like they may have had young kids, they're juggling it all. And again, they couldn't admit, like what they were dealing with. And they were really having to like wear a mask the whole time, but behind the scenes, like there's massive impact to their stress and well being. Because if they would admit it, they're perceived as weak, and then they can't get ahead. And so, now when I'm working with, you know, women, law firm owners, which is really you know, our speciality niche, A, it's very much about sort of, um, programming, right, a lot of how they think things should be some of them may have come from big law, right, or, you know, they've seen those models and they're very much wanting to Create, you know, businesses that firms that support their life so that they can be mother, they can be wife, they can travel, they can be unplugged, they don't have to have all of this stress. The other big area as well, that we see, and by the way, when I say those things, it does not mean, oh, and that means you pay yourself less, you're taking less revenues, not because this is this other big area that we work with is around money, particularly the mindset around money, which again, women have inherited, very different scripting. You know, again, the classic male provides kind of deals with the finances, most financial programs have been set up by men. And women think differently. And then there's a whole emotional component. So we are working with our women to be like, it is okay. Like it's more than okay to be financially secure, financially empowered, but we have a different approach to finances. So that makes it more, let's say palatable, for the women that we work with. And again, even that we work with incredibly smart women, the majority of them will readily admit that, you know, they they feel scared, or their finances, you know, they don't understand them, you know, they've got bookkeepers and accountants that are giving them reports and like, I get my stuff, but I really don't know what I'm supposed to do with it. And again, it's back to the business side of things that great attorneys, but some of these other skills have got some great opportunities, just

for the record. Lots of male visionaries, speaking for one, also, don't love you the meeting with the accountant every month. But you also touched on it, because you've got one of the greatest podcast names of all time. What is the name of your podcast? Thank

you. So get rich without being a bitch.

Oh, I think we just got got muted. Yeah, get rich without being a bitch. Yeah, I love it. I love it. And you talked a lot about a matter of fact, I met with an attorney yesterday. And she said she was at a firm. And she, you know, had worked for many years and finally got pregnant. And the firm was not treating it. Well. I won't try and put her words. And and she you know, she that was the final straw because she was also being paid about $20,000 Less than a male counterpart that she considered to be, you know, half as good as her. And yeah, and his did half as many billings was his quant quantitative, according to her. So I definitely heard the story of many of your clients yesterday, it

still exists, right? You know, like, again, a lot of people say, oh, there's so many women opening businesses and this and that. I'm like, Yeah, but you'd like let's look at the stats. And let's look at what women are earning compared to men, even when they're in business and how many women are hiring compared to men, and everything is very skewed. And so for me, again, that's the conversation, I'm really passionate about changing because it runs way deeper than just our own mindset, right? We've got a lot of unraveling to do. And women need like some really good role models that they can kind of be fully themselves and build a firm or a business on their terms. And live a phenomenal life as well.

Yeah, yeah, we've had some amazing women on on this podcast, and I've had the pleasure of hearing the story of success. Actually think Emily, who introduced us from back office, Betty's, you know, that show, and Dan Neff is a great business coach law firms as well. So, you know, coaching a lot of people, you know, still don't understand coaching, like you said, 20 years ago, but talk a little bit about the model, like, what does it look like? How do folks engage with you? And what's the cadence of your coaching?

Yeah, so again, kind of have two main ways right now. So we've just got a very simplified business model, because again, I want to kind of rock role model, not complexity and stress out, right. And so what we've what we've found is a mix of one on one personal and group coaching really works well. So that people are getting that level of support that fit that feels very pertinent to them, we can dive deep. You know, yesterday, I was working with a client. And again, there was a lot of stress that had come up. And we were able to do some really powerful work in a one on one. There's no way that she would have felt comfortable doing that work in a group, I'm sure right, and it wouldn't have been as impactful. But then when it comes to group, it's so beneficial because somebody asks a question that they're struggling with that somebody else hasn't even thought of yet. And they're like, oh my gosh, you know, you've opened my eyes to that. I can be coaching somebody in in a group around a topic, and then getting feedback from everybody else. And then I Oh, gosh, I didn't even realize it. thought that way, but now you've shifted my belief around something. So even when we're coaching in group and somebody's just the sheer fact of somebody listening to somebody else's experience is really powerful. Now, what we think are very different. And the piece that I'm super passionate about is the combination of personal development and business development. So we hold a belief that, you know, core philosophy that says business can only grow by the amount you're willing to grow yourself. And this is back from those days of me working in big law of saying, we have to have personal leadership and personal development, this is massive, we need to understand what the blocks are the psychology, you know, where is my emotional state getting in the way? Like, how do I expand this version of me so that I can fulfill on the vision, right, as to you saying, like the visionary, like the visionary, the vision that we want demands another version of ourselves. So we're constantly on this tension between the personal development. But of course, as we grow a firm as well, their skills development, it's not just about mindset. So we do a lot of content around around leadership around team around hiring, it's not just me. So these are not topics that I necessarily in teaching and coaching around finances, we have a bit of a slant towards like a profit first type of approach. But again, it's so that our women attorneys are building the skills, you know, how do we have those difficult conversations, right? When do we know it's time to hire? When do we know it's time to fire? And what does the marketing need to look like? What's my sales process? So very holistic, and we really cover every aspect of a business model. And typically, our clients work with us, I would say anywhere about three to four years. Because they're getting great results. Not because they're waiting around to get results, right. But it's like my, my goal, because we get very close to our clients as well, is that, you know, we're working together for a long time, because then we just have these deep relationships. And frankly, it's it's just a wonderful experience. But like, I know, I know what their some of their triggers are going to be. I know where the pitfalls are going to be. That means we can dive in quickly, right? Well,

I love it. I love the holistic nature of it, where you're dealing with the mindset, finance, HR and skills as well. And, you know, one of your calling cards, and another one of your calling cards, is the million dollar question. What is the million dollar question? Teach us a bit about that?

Yeah. So we say you don't get what you want, you get what you tolerate. So traditionally, when people are thinking about vision, like we look at adding things, and that was really what I saw, when I get when I was working in big firms, the getting to that vision was all about more responsibility, more complexity, adding things, and it was so little about subtraction. And when we're working with again, we're in the, you know, we're in the solo small law firms space, that we do a tolerations audit, the million dollar question came from actually it was a doctor that I was working with that when she heard me talk about it, she did a quick audit of what she was tolerating in her medical practice. And in her particular case, she was tolerating an insurance based practice when she really wanted to go concierge cash pay. And she's actually one of the top functional doctors in the states highly experienced. And she said, I've done the math on this, it's costing me a million dollars to not make this transition. And then hired me and my team to basically make that transition and go fully concierge and put that million dollars where it belongs, which was back in back in her own medical practice. So we ask our clients, you know, what are you tolerating? Let's, let's look at this. There's some things that will be surface level that are kind of easy to identify. There are other things that we don't even realize they're in the subconscious. But again, surface level can be I'm tolerating, you know, back to back calendar. I'm tolerating late payments I'm tolerating no payments I'm tolerating, you know, a team member that's getting really disrespectful, right? So we start to unpack those tolerations and find ways to frankly eliminate them or reduce them at the least, so that when our attorneys are working towards their vision, they're actually we're doing it by simplifying not by adding more complexity. And when we let me know when we stop tolerating certain things, it means that we necessarily are going to be raising our standards. So, again, there's a I We can make sure that we've got a link to the book because I actually unpack the whole process so that listeners can go through it. It's super practical, it gets us closer to our zone of genius, and makes life a lot easier, and frankly, a lot more fun.

What's the book called?

So it's directly on the website. So business growth academy.com, actually, forward slash book will take listeners to a direct link. But even if you just go to business growth, academy.com, you'll find it there on the website. Fantastic.

Got a little bit of time for maybe one more tip, let's say for a young female attorney who's, you know, thinking of going out on her own or just started went out on her own, you know, what's a great tip for a young, a young attorney making that jump? Yeah,

there are so many, but I think one of the probably the one that can feel like the scariest, but it will make life easier. One of the big mistakes, but it's something that can I can make firms more complex than they need to be, especially when they're small is they go out on their own, and then they do the full service law firm. And it's like we're doing a bit of this, we're doing a bit of that, you know, we're doing business, we're doing criminal, we're doing estate planning, right. And it's all across the board. And I would say for us, we really look at you know, what are honestly the problems that you love serve solving all day long. I love solving business problems, but I love solving like anything that's related to money for women like that's, that's a conversation I never ever get tired of. Right? So it's like, what are those problems that you really love to solve? Who are the people that are really a perfect match for you? Because everybody, you know, if we take two estate planning attorneys, whilst the estate planning process may look similar, they could be such different audiences, because there's a certain demographic or an audience that you're really passionate about. So say, think about the problems and think about then who feels like a really great match. Because inevitably, we spend a lot of time and energy with clients. We call them champagne clients in our business, champagne, wine and beer, I think it's probably quite self explanatory. And the idea, right, is that we want to be working with more champagne clients. And I think that that is one of the places when people are starting out, we want to they the tendency is to be something to everybody. And again, it means it gets very difficult for marketing, as you would know, because right. That's your business, like when we're trying to market to multiple avatars. But it's also internally, it means we have to have so many different systems. And frankly, for attorneys as well, like developing expertise and becoming really well known in a market and a juristic. Diction is one of the ways to be able to command considerably higher fees as well.

Well, it's a great question. And we went through this exercise when we picked our niche. And people always say like, how did you end up only doing digital marketing, and only doing it for attorneys. And about five years ago, we had two big categories. We had attorneys who had worked with for 15 or 16 years and we had seminar event folks, and we're big Tony Robbins seminars with a shark tank guy and a guy selling stock training and a guy selling out to flip your host training. You know, the full day events at the at the local conventions. And so, for us, the decision was a little bit easier because we really liked working with the attorneys. They were really business people. And one thing that they were very good at was paying their bills. And the seminar and event guys were kind of like the modern day carnival barkers they rolling down and if they sold enough stock courses, they'd pay their bills, if not, they move on. And next time they came back to Philadelphia, they changed the name of the conference. But um, on a more serious note, you know, I'm involved in a mastermind as well called seven figure agency. Shout out to Josh Nelson. And we've been very successful since we picked our niche. And yeah, a lot of the young folks who come into the, the group asked, you know, how do we pick our niche like we've got additional agency, we service everybody, we see how much success everybody's having being specialist in one area of one niche. And one of the things that I wish I thought through and unfortunately worked out, and you pointing to it exactly, is you're going to be spending a lot of time with these people. Yes. So I tell people, you know, go to like for us. You know, I was at a conference last week in New Orleans and it was there was 550 lawyers. And today I've been on a call, you know three or four calls with attorneys and having lunch tomorrow with the Florida lawyers network. We have these mini lunches. I'm going to be with fourth four or five attorneys. So invest some time when you're picking those that niche and you Make sure that you, you know, and you don't necessarily need to pick the champagne clients, you know, likes the champagne clients. I'm happy with these attorney clients. But you know, a lot of my guys in my seven figure agency there, they actually liked the roofers, or the owners, and they're much happier not putting a sports coat on. And it's funny because when we're at seven figures, there's like, three of us who wear a sports coat. And the three sports coat are all the three guys who target the Lord. It's like, we're just sports coat lawyer, people, we're comfortable in that environment. But a lot of the guys just want to wear shorts and a, an A ballcap. And that's what they were saying, guess what, that's what the plumbers and everything actually wear to their national convention. So that's a really great piece of advice. Well, we're gonna go to the short snappers and I did give us a little bit of a heads up. But I'm, I'm I always like to throw a couple of curveballs. So let's say we go make the first one easy. One of the things I love to learn from successful people like Vanessa is, what are some of the apps you use or techniques for personal productivity? So

this one, honestly is? It's a great, a great question. And I'm going to be super honest about it right now, I have slipped on some of my habits around this. So I'm actually like, reining myself back in as a human being. Because I post it notes. By that I love post it notes. However, post it notes get messy. They do. And I found myself kind of going back down and was like, gosh, I've got to stop this, you know, the all these post it notes everywhere. So actually, one of my now why that's important is I still prefer non digital productivity things, I find that the written but my, you know, writing things down actually really helps me. And so there is a journal that I love. And I've got sitting right here on my desk. That's called the oak journal. And it was developed by an entrepreneur, I think, in the end eoA. So I know we've talked about EOS. And some of those great entrepreneurs have created it. And what I what I love about it is it has gratitude, so we can practice, you know, gratitude, establish the vision for the day, kind of like the top three things for the day. And it's written down. So I can actually check things off, which I still get a massive kick out of, to this day, putting a line through something it's

yeah, by the way I suck. I mean, this is just a sample that I do that too. And I just have to take the sticky notes. If you're listening to the audio, I'm showing a bunch of sticky Yeah, me too. I have the sticky note pad on my desk, I write these little notes. And it's terrible. I'm looking for this, we did this as a book club. I've mentioned this on a couple of them. Yeah. Great book from Brian Tracy called Eat That Frog. And essentially, it's that concept of write down the three things that are the most important things for your day. And sometimes they're the biggest projects, you got to get a start on, sometimes there's something you've got to brief somebody else on, because they've got to do the work. But if you don't get it to them first thing in the morning, they're not going to get it accomplished. So there's a great book, Eat That Frog and a great strategy of writing down those three big frogs. And the concept Prague is like, if you don't eat them when they're little tadpoles, meaning if you don't do the task, and the deadline looms larger, the task becomes more and more ominous. And then then you really can start procrastinating.

Oh, totally, totally. Yeah. And we said the same thing. It's always three things to stop overwhelm. And what I say the, the rule of three will set you free, because it's like three big rocks, right? Like three big priorities for the year, three big priorities for the quarter, three for the month, three for the week, and three for the day. And if it's a massively stretched stress day, then we go to one, but that rule of three, not 26 things.

Yeah, and the three big rocks also as part of Eos. Totally. What are some of the blogs, podcasts or YouTubes that you subscribe to that when it hits your feed? You know, it's the first one you listen to every

every now right? So interestingly, I am really working on less consuming right now I'm more creating, because I know I can get lost in them. So YouTube is not something I have used a lot but now with the relaunch of my podcast, it's going to be on YouTube. So it's kind of oh, okay, so I need to I need to start to wake up to this but the podcast that I have been really enjoying recently is Diary of a CEO. I have been pretty much binge listening to that. Lots of things things, lots of things around health as well. And longevity. So I go off and play tennis. I've got nearly a 20 minute drive now to get to my court. So that's what I find is my podcasting time

is Diary of a CEO. Is it? Is it a parable, like is it told in a story format? Or is it just so

he is it is I think it's the fastest growing podcast in the States at this point in time, is actually a Brit. But he's like between England and the states. And he's obviously a big entrepreneur. And he has got some really big names on so

it's great. So. Yeah. And you mentioned tennis, Vanessa and I were were chatting before, we're both doubles, tennis players. So for balls coming straight at you, or your backhand or forehand.

One straight and a buddy today. And I think I did something really weird. So if it's coming straight at me, probably

backhand and you win the test. You choose to serve a return. Oh,

gosh, that one really depends. Probably return when we're in leagues kind of warm up and get over some of those nerves.

You get that early break. It's always a win. I agree. Right. And who's your NFL team?

I'm not an NFL.

Football team. I British football? Nothing. No sports, tennis.

No, I'm tennis.

I am. Yeah, as a matter of fact, I used to tell people yes to SAS we my team four or five years ago. And that's it. Well, to be honest, my favorite sports team was the Brian brothers. Those guys were six foot four identical twins born in California grew up playing tennis. One was the lefty one was ready. And they won 115 or 117 titles, and won then in the Olympics. And they went off for a Grand Slam titles many times. And I loved watching these guys because I was a doubles tennis player. And

I love watching tennis. I've got the Tennis Channel now so I can track and of course we've got the French Open is about to start. So can

be rough was last French Open it it could be June in this year. Couple more. What's your best business books that you recommend to your your clients and the young attorneys?

Yes, so the one book and it's not necessarily business. But again, this comes back to the personal development side of things that I get people started with is the big leap by Gay Hendricks. Then if you've come across it j it is it's timeless. The concept inside that book. It's an easy read as well. I mean, but yeah, there's so much wealth in there. The concept that gay has established is all about that we all have an upper limit. And I can see this as always true. Like we have an upper limit of performance. And again, it's back to mindset and where we stop ourselves and kind of where we might sabotage create distractions. And it works for personal and business. So that is the book that I recommend to all of our clients to get started with.

Fantastic. And the last question is an easy one. Where can people get in touch with

you? Yes. So at business growth academy.com straight there on the website. And they'll always find some goodies there as well. Things to download. And again, I'm on all social channels as well. So Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn.

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time and a great conversation. Very inspiring and entertaining. Good luck with your tennis. And again, thank you for being here.

Thank you so much. Well, I hope we get on the court at one point we have some mixed dubs going on. My partner though not opposite the net. If you

come next year to tgr live I promise you will get a great mixed doubles game. Oh, there

we go. That's a date. Awesome. Thanks

so much, Vanessa.

Thank you for listening to the 10 Golden Rules of internet marketing for law firms podcast. Please send questions and comments to podcast at 10 Golden rules.com That is podcast at t e n Golden rules.com