Ep 459 - Overcoming High Functioning Depression with Chloë Bisson

Ian Hawkins 0:02

Are you ready, ready to release internal pain to find confidence, clarity and direction for your future, to live a life of meaning, fulfillment and contribution to trust your intuition again, but something's been holding you back, you've come to the right place. Welcome. I'm a Ian Hawkins, the host and founder of The Grief Code podcast. Together, let's heal your unresolved or unknown grief by unlocking your grief code. As you tune into each episode, you will receive insight into your own grief, how to eliminate it and what to do next. Before we start by one request, if any new insights or awareness land with you during this episode, please send me an email at info at the Ian Hawkins coaching.com. And let me know what you found. I know the power of this word, I love to hear the impact these conversations have. Okay, let's get into it. Chloe basin is fast paced, she's high energy. And you'll hear that very quickly in this conversation. But it hasn't always been that way she experienced deep depression. What's interesting is she'd actually had depression for many years prior to that from a young age. But she'd done a great job of suppressing it. And then when everything sort of ground to a halt in her life, and it was pointed out to her that's what she was going through that she'd been suppressing it then everything came crashing down. Like with most people who have come out the other side is that there's so many lessons from that. And the lessons that Chloe has learned has helped her limiting to bring herself back to a place not who she used to be, but who she wants to be, and allowed her to create an incredible business. But she's now helping other people as well. Because like with anyone who's been through tough times, we don't want to see anyone else go through what we've been through. If you've experienced any depression, perhaps if you didn't even identify with being depression, and you've just had struggles where you're unable to move forward. You get so much value out of this. I love that Jesus similar tools that to what I do. And I really enjoyed this conversation mainly because I already knew Chloe and medical relationship, but it flowed really nicely because we were talking the same language on so many different things. Enjoy. Hi, everyone, and welcome This week's guest, Chloe Besian. How are you Chloe?

Unknown Speaker 2:39

I'm good. I am thank you so much for having me. How

Ian Hawkins 2:40

are you? going very well. How are you?

Unknown Speaker 2:43

Yeah, fantastic. Excited to be here.

Ian Hawkins 2:46

Excellent. So when we start, you said something to be before we jumped on, which was around you experiencing depression. But also, you've been experiencing it for some time before you actually realize that's what it was. And that's something I can relate to myself my own journey. I remember why kinesiology was saying to me, you know, we're going to clear some stuff around depression. And I'm like, What do you mean? He goes, Oh, you've had it since you were 15? And what? This is like when I'm in my 40s. So tell us about if you didn't know as depression, how was it showing up? And why didn't you know it was depression?

Speaker 2 3:31

Yeah, every time people say their stories, it happened to so many of us. I was completely in denial. So I had been feeling unwell, like physically unwell feeling sick. And I thought it was to do with my job. I wasn't sure if I was enjoying my job. And I remember waking up every morning feeling queasy and dreading going to work. And I remember I think it was making a cup of tea one morning and I heard some women on the news saying that she'd she was battling depression and she was explaining the symptoms. And I was like, kind of similar. But then the denial kicked in. And it was like, No, I'm fine. I'm the most positive person everyone's ever met. I'm always smiling. I'm always chatty. And then it was actually my mum said I think we should take you to a doctor. And honestly, and I was sat on the doctors and it's a family doctor. So she knows me really well. No, Mrs has a baby. And I honestly thought she was gonna give me some tablets for my stomach ache. I just turned around in about 10 minutes. And she says you've got severe clinical depression, not just depression, not just clinical severe clinical depression. And she said, she said, yeah, you've I believe you're in denial about it. And it's it's quite bad Chloe. And I was sat there and I was actually quite rude to her because I was like, There's no way like I was just in complete shock. You know? Let's get out of here like this is you know, just just go see somebody else. And my mom was quite like calm like Chloe sit down. Let's let's talk about this. And so long story short, I left and she signed me off work for six months, right? You just need some time. And she said to me about it. This was a Wednesday I remember so vividly. And I went home and my mom said come and stay with us. was for a few weeks, because I lived on my own short commerce hours, I'll come and stay for a little bit. And she's the doctor said to me, it's Wednesday today, I'll renew in two days on Friday and see how you're feeling. But just take it easy. And there's me still thinking in this woman's crackers. Like, she's like, I'm fine. And so is that my mom's house and we were just, you know, having two days off. And I was in this like, okay, great, I'm having a bit of a holiday. And the doctor was right. And within two days, that whole denial had lifted, and it was like a ton of bricks. And I remember when the doctor called me and she was like, so how are you feeling? And I just burst into tears. Because it was like, she'd almost pop that veil of ignorance. And it was like, then it was just this overwhelming feeling of just sadness and heaviness. And it was actually quite impressive to think that I had the power to hide all of that totally, unknowingly for for so long.

Ian Hawkins 5:49

Yeah. And as humans, we get really good at suppressing stuff, right?

Unknown Speaker 5:55

Oh, yeah. Little did I know.

Ian Hawkins 5:58

Yeah. So if you think back to those times, how, like, How else did it show up? Like, because for me, it would have burst out in frustration at different times, it would have burst out in being like, treating people close to me like sarcasm, for example, like, all different ways to try and cut other people down to make myself feel better, which I didn't realize at the time, and actually, some of this is just kind of dawning on me now to break me out of the downplays I was in.

Speaker 2 6:32

Yeah, for me, I, I was actually saved the rage. And the you know, sarcasm actually came afterwards when I'd accepted it, and I'd realized it. But what did happen was I just had this random phase of just numbness. So I would be, you know, had a whole weekend of no work and my friends were busy. And I think, you know, I'm just gonna just literally just numb on TV and not think of anything for two days. And that I honestly thought that was my way of relaxing, like, I had a really stressful job. Everyone says, have time to have downtime. And I was like, oh, yeah, this is healthy. I'm having downtime. It wasn't a healthy downtime. It was just I'm gonna ignore the world for two days. And it was things like that. I never had the sort of traditional depression where people don't want to leave their house, or I had that after I'd realized it. But at the time, my denial was so powerful. I was so high functioning, was still going and doing my job. I wasn't showing up badly at work. No one No one knew. So when I started actually opening up and telling people, everyone thought, though, like, there's no way she can hide it this well. And it turns out, I could have you Oh, wow.

Ian Hawkins 7:29

It's amazing, isn't it? And and I'm just thinking about different people I know. And when they run into problems, it's exactly the same conversation you have you like, really? They're not going on? Well. And it's just another example that we shouldn't make assumptions about what's going on in people's lives because we see the smallest fraction over.

Speaker 2 7:47

Yeah, and I think we're, we, we think we know what depression looks like, because we see on social media talk about it, we see it on TV, we think it needs to be a certain way. And I remember my best friend, and we were I was uneducated about it. They were uneducated about it, no one had ever experienced it, especially in our town or talked about it, if they experienced it, after I started opening up, and then she'll probably tell me, and I'm quite an open person, I'll tell anyone anything. And if it helps everyone, that's when people start coming to me going, Oh, my God, I felt like that, or I've had depression. And it was like so many people telling me and I thought, God, how many of us have stayed silent. But my friend was so uneducated. I remember the first time I bumped into him, or we met up after my depression. And he said to me, Oh, I actually came and he said, I thought you'd be crying more. No, that's not what depression is always like, you know, that's part of it. It doesn't have to be. And I think it's just it comes in so many ways. And it's all everyone's got different coping mechanisms. It just depends on how we choose to cope and whether we want to hide or not for the people.

Ian Hawkins 8:47

Nice segue, this conversation is going to flow nicely because it wasn't the question was like, what what coping mechanisms? Did you develop that? Had you shielding yourself from the

Speaker 2 8:59

debris? Yeah. In terms of what shielded me before I realized that like housing, like, threw myself into work. So I, I had put my whole life focused on my career from a very young age. But I go into too much backstory, my parents divorced when I was quite young. And so when it came to choosing to go to university, we couldn't actually afford it. So where I'm from, in the UK, you have to pay quite a lot and what they got overseas, so I have to pay a huge amount to go to university and we just couldn't afford it. And so I went into educate, I didn't go into education, I left education that at and I went straight into work. But I still wanted to prove myself that I was still worthy of having a career. And so I studied and worked at the same time. And so, from 18 I was constantly proving myself so that by the time I was 21, I was a chartered accountant, I was a manager, but I was 24 It was a director. And it was like I just wanted to prove myself to everyone and to myself that I could get so far. So I was using work as an escape. So when I looked back to what the core trigger of my depression was, I can see, that's where my busyness actually got worse. That's when I threw myself in, because that was the fix I was getting. If I felt bad outside of my world, when I was in work, I felt great. And I got that hit, and I got that kick, and I got the affection and the accomplishment. And I felt that success. And that's when I noticed that is, and it still is something I noticed about myself now. And that's one thing I've noticed going on this journey, the last sort of, well, where are we now 10 years, it's really been a process of noticing my triggers. And now if I noticed that even now, 10 years on, if I notice that urge to just go, I feel a bit low off just gonna do a bit of work to get that fixed. It's my flag, and I'm like, Whoa, this means I need to take a step back. And it was in hindsight, I noticed that I was doing that a lot in my life.

Hmm, interesting. So if you look at that, from that perspective of trying to prove yourself did, was there any behaviors about yourself at that time that you didn't like? Or was just not as great, I love it?

Speaker 2 11:07

Good question. I thought I'd always been a people pleaser. So I've always been the sort of person that always wanted to make other people happy. And I think I was always trying to prove to my parents to my loved ones that I could still get results. Even if we weren't, I wasn't going to university, because it was very, like the school I was in. It was very much like, if you're not going to university, well, you know, what's the point, really. And I remember going to one actual class with the teachers, learning how to apply for university. Don't have that in Australia. But here, they have a whole segment of just how to apply and pick University. And I remember the teacher saying to me, Oh, you're not you're not applying for university. I said, No, she went, Okay, well, you know, there's no point you being in this room in this classroom, then, you know, go and have a free period, go and enjoy your time and you're like extra lunch. And I was like, What help you're gonna give me then. So I think there was always this experience of trying to please people trying to prove myself to people. And I've noticed that in my behavior that I would say, I wouldn't say it's something I don't like, but it's something I've got were very cautious of, because it's a pattern I can fall into so easily that I've learned from that part of my life.

Yeah. I want to just just go with something I've just noticed. Now, that's reminded me of what I already knew of you. So we haven't probably chatted for about five or six years. But I remember from that time that you always high paced, efficient, straight to the point. And even now, like you're telling the story almost 100 miles an hour, because it's just how you're already your best. Right? So that must like having that switch to go into that space. I'm sure it's got lots of positives. But does it have a downside? Oh, gotcha.

Speaker 2 12:43

So I had a big realization about six months ago. So in reality, we, in my, in my team, we call it slowly speed, because I built up quite a big team of 15 people. And it took a while to notice that not everyone's gonna go at Clary speed, and actually clearly go Chloe's speed is not that time. So I'm really consciously dekat, making an effort to slow down. Because one of the things I noticed was in our world and personal development, you know, you set a vision at the beginning of the year, and you process your goals, and you remove the limiting beliefs and you achieve it. And then you reflect on it. And I found myself feeling like I was broken because I was constantly redoing my vision. And I kept thinking is my vision not big enough, because people, you know, everyone else's got one vision for a year or three years. And I'm in three months wanting to change my vision. And I used to think I was broken, because I used to think well, maybe maybe it's not my true purpose, maybe my vision isn't exciting enough. And what I realized was actually, because I am very highly efficient, I do do things quite fast. And if I get an idea, I've learned now to spend a bit of time processing it, you actually do implement quite fast, I'm such an action taker, which definitely has its downsides at times, but what I've learned is that I do tend to process my visions quicker because of that. And so I mean, I, I set an intention at beginning of this year to launch my own podcast, my own show. And we started recording in February. We launched it by June. And, and I've loved the journey. And now I'm like now what know some people spend two years planning something like that. And I used to think I was broken. But what I've learned now, is that such it's a strength, but it also has its weaknesses with that, and oh my god, how long have you got the amount of actions I've taken that I could have just spent a week to think before I've just gone? Let's do it, you know, which meant that I've failed fast, and I've learned fast as well. So there's definitely pros and cons to it.

Yeah, I know a bit of work with personality and strengths and that sort of thing. And the big picture thinker, right. You've already seen the clear vision in your head. So you're just like, let's just do it. Yeah. And then you've got team members who are kind of on the opposite side of the spectrum, and I'm sure they're valuable for you to slow you down and just get get you out. Okay, let's let's get to the nuts and bolts of this.

Speaker 2 15:02

Exactly. It's funny you say, actually, we did the assessments with our team, I've trained on four different personality profiling, right. And they're all you know, they're all very similar to each other. And I'm the big picture thinker, the visionary. And a lot of my team are detailed, orientated, very consistent, people like the process. And then I've got a bunch of team, especially in my coaching business, who are very like selfless givers, carers, and it's duck, I'm very caring, don't get me wrong, but we're very different in our core personality. And it is quite an interesting dynamic, when you see us as a group, and, you know, they slow me down, and I have to read their body language and their facial expressions to maybe this is their way of saying, Chloe, can we just think about this?

Too polite. So what's the downside? because there'll be plenty of big picture thinkers listening to this thinking, you know, I fall into that trap as well. So what, where does that go wrong? And how have you learned to deal with that?

Speaker 2 16:02

Yeah, fantastic question. So it can go wrong fast if you're a big picture thinker, if you also take action too fast. So big picture thinkers, often, their biggest fear is failure. If you go into like the layers that I've learned after going through this, which means we often push through to get results, we just want to get results. And there are things on the way that we can forget. So you know, it might be steps in a process that we might skip or cut corners, because we just want to get the result, there might be people that we may be not as supportive to you, because we just want to get the result. So often, what I find is a big picture thinker. My advice to anyone else that's like this, is surround yourself with people who are not all big picture thinkers. Because if you've got a team that are all big picture thinkers, you're all going to go in that direction, and you're not going to have anyone to challenge you. Because also, what I've learned in years of managing teams with this part of my personality is not big picture thinkers are quite hard to challenge because they're so passionate about the vision, pair that with someone who can be quite inspiring and convincing. It's very hard to get someone to say no to you. And I've probably trained my team for about two years in, this is how you say no, I want you to say no, and it's you know, because they're also that I love the idea, though, and I might but have we thought it through properly. So my advice to any big picture thinkers is surround yourself with some analytical people. Some really like people focus, compassionate people, some detail orientated people, because they will be thinking of sides of the picture or the project that you've not thought of. And they'll think of things and you'll go, oh, actually, and you'll probably still be the one to come up with a solution because you are the big picture thinker, and you're the results focused person. But it's about understanding that everyone part, everyone has a part to play and they all complement each other if you've got the right team.

Love it so good. Can I just go back to the the depression diagnosis, because we got a bit sidetracked there, but there was all a very good side drag. When When the reality starts sinking in, and you said then it all sort of everything just crumbled. How so like, we just like you said, you were high functioning up to that point that you then become non functioning

Speaker 2 18:13

completely. Yeah, completely. So at that point, that's when the traditional signs of depression kicks in. So that was when I didn't want to socialize with anyone, that's when I didn't want to leave the house, that's when I struggled to even go go and buy some milk and some sugar on the in the corner shop, you know, it was just it was one of those things where I just didn't want to do anything. If there were days where I could get from the bed to the couch, it was a success. So a lot of people face that earlier. And that depression for me my high functioning durability, and my denial protected me from all of that. So when I said hit me like a ton of bricks and everything came crumbling down it was then it was almost like the way I describe it cuz I'm quite a visual person. It was like, the shell came off. And then it was actually what depression is like. And that's when it really kicked in. I remember there were times where I was, I was I lived in a block of flats. And inside there was a supermarket I didn't even have to go outside the building. I was so anxious to go into that shop in case I saw anyone what would I say to them? If I looked different, you know if what the shopkeeper was asking me what if I didn't have the right cash on me? Or the right amount of money? What if my card failed? And it was what I noticed now after going through a lot of therapy through it was my denial of my depression made me anxious and that actually created an issue with anxiety because then I became paranoid. It was like How did I not know this about my brain? How does this how is this been going on in my life and I don't know if you'd experiences from your you know, it was going on your life for quite a while as well. I was so just like unaware and then I became paranoid. What if it comes back again and I'm not aware? How will I handle that? You know what, why didn't I notice it? Am I broken does everybody else say about me? And that anxiety then it started with the fear of not noticing my depression Done. And it just spreads, it got to the point where I remember about three months in. So remember, I was off work for six months, halfway through, I thought I was getting a bit better. And I agreed to go out for dinner with a few friends. And they booked the restaurant and I was like, hang on, which restaurant Have you booked? Which table are we going to have? Where will I be sat on the table. And it was like my brain, I had to pre plan what CLB sat in, because of what I've ever seen the door who would be able to see me first. And it was just like, so many irrational thoughts that were my day to day. And then also don't forget, pair that with not having a job because I'd been assigned off. I had nothing else to do but think every day. And it was just became such a spiral.

I can relate to that. But probably in a little bit of a different way. I think whenever you go through really challenging times, and you start sort of processing and coming out the other side that part of the process is that paranoia. I've got an individual episode on exactly that. That the paranoia of awakening, because it's like, suddenly you're going, yeah, like you said, you start going. Did everyone else know this? Am I on some inside joke? And everyone's just been really kind and gentle to me. But really, like they've been looking at me? Yeah, like all sorts of thoughts go through your head. And I started thinking, maybe I'm one of those special people that that you see there that everyone's really slow with and online with? The the anxiety thing makes sense, right? So when we suppress anything, then it will turn into something else. Now, for me, probably not so much anxiety, mine was just, like, shut down. That's where suppressing it will then lead to shut down. After again, the awareness piece came before then it's just carry on and cope. And I would have probably been shutting down but just we're just going to keep going. But I've had people if they're suppressing anger, then their default is anxiety. So I guess it doesn't really matter what big emotion it is. But if you're if you're suppressing, it will manifest as something else until it gets your attention.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

So then you went to the low functioning. Well, how did you then come out the other side? And I know that's not a short answer. Like, yeah, what was was there? Were there battles there through that? Time? Were there moment light bulb moments where you're just like, oh, this is starting to make sense.

Speaker 2 22:28

Yeah, definitely. So where I'm from the health system is terrible. Let's just put it out there. So you know, I was on private insurance, which means that the company I worked for paid for it, and I still had to wait, wait, wait eight weeks to see a psychologist. So given how severe it was, for me, I thought what are people who have not got this severe level of this experiencing? And so I was just in such a low place was for weeks and my my dad actually had contacted my auntie now I'm having this closest Auntie in the past, but she's lovely person we just haven't seen each other often times actually was a life coach. And I had no idea what a life coach was, at that point in my life. I didn't even notice that depression. So I was so not awake, it's a real. And she came around for dinner. So I just want to chat with you. And I said, Okay, I honestly thought she was like a company trainer or something. I know what it was. She did. And she said to me, one very, very powerful question. So Chloe, what are your core values? And I sat there and and I was like, what are they? All I'd known was company values, you know, painted on the wall in an office and integrity and honesty and you know, communication. And so when she said what are your personal values are, what your core values are thought, what she's talking about. And that was where it was like this eye opening experience, if I'm allowed to have those was honestly my reaction. Now, knowing what we know. Isn't that just like, now I'm like, of course you got values, but I was so I become someone for some so many other people, I've completely lost myself. And that is so cliched. And so I then just start I honestly started from the lowest point I could possibly be at with a blank piece of paper. And she said right, I'm going to give you assignments each week and I want you to work on this. I personally thought she was doing it to distract me at first because then I wouldn't be doing anything stupid and I definitely to focus on but what she did was gave me different exercises. She gave me the core values she gave me beliefs exercise the wheel of life, like look at every traditional sort of method you go through in the coaching world. And it just slowly unraveled me and it was like in a good way unraveled the negative thoughts on it, but it also then helped me see that there are other parts of my life other than my career, which I just put my blinkers on to to hide from the pain really. And then I remember when that and I then had the cat the psychology appointment. I'm not saying I was fixed but I was going in like I'm we're a little bit late because I think, a hell of a lot of the other work. And then I had the session with her and she That's me, Chloe, I think you've done you have done a lot of the psychology psychological work, sure. But you're still not really moving much you're still in your house every day, I'd encourage you to do some exercise. And so it was the combination of that work and the exercise and I started forcing myself one minute it was like, just do a walk around the outside of our building, then it was like, let's a walk here. And slowly, I got to the fact that I was going to the gym every day. And it was just walking on a treadmill, listen to music, but that physical change in my environment was like, then I felt normal again, I felt you know, it was on the on the app. And I now know why, well, those of them since why that ye that was the effect it had.

What I love about that is that it was so subtle from her that you were doing it without even realizing. Yeah. And at the same time empowering you because you were taking the action. Yeah. That's cool. And that question about values, I imagine. Because that would have been the case for me too. Like when you start doing coaching, it's one of the, like you said, it's one of the early things that you need to get in place. But back then you don't know what you stand for. So as a people pleaser, I stood for everything. Like I want to defend every cause I wanted to be there to like I see, like, emotionally engaged in all these different things. And thinking about it. Now I see so much of that now. People are avoiding their own stuff by throwing themselves into all these different causes. Yeah. So come back to causes because I'd love to hear more about that from you. But you go through those early stages, and you get back exercising, and then and then what's the well, I guess it's important to pause and just realize how important it was for your mum to actually intervene in that place? Yeah. Do you think about that, if like, what would have become if she hadn't?

Speaker 2 26:54

Yeah, you know, it's weird because she and I talked very openly about this, my mom knows my opinion on it. So you know, she's definitely gonna be surprised by this. But she probably struggled with my depression more than me. Because she intervened. And she I think she saw it, she noticed that she'd had depression at a young age as well. And she had postnatal depression with me. So she I think she never told me this at the time, I think she saw the signs. But when it then was it transpired, how bad it was, she really struggled. So she, we've talked about it a lot now, but what she said is that it was really hard for her because she couldn't help me, you know, or any child and she wants to help me to be the best version of myself. And she's also always been motivating me to do better and achieve more and because that's what she values as well. And it just, she just couldn't help she, you know, those moments where she was trying to help me and I was just in tears, and I was low, and I was anxious. And she was really stuck in a genuine belief. I've been through it since with family members who have had depression, I actually would say it's harder for people around the people experiencing it, because you love the person so much. And you really want to help, but you just can't. And it got to the point where my mum was saying things like our mind over matter, snap out of it, you'll be fine, you know. And we all know, she knows now as well that that is the least helpful language you could possibly say to anyone that's facing a mental illness. But it was her only way of getting on top of her feelings. Because if she had gone there with me, she possibly could have stayed there with me. She could have gone low and gone depressed. You know, who knows. So I generally believe that's her coping mechanism. And she openly says now because I run a lot of events. And I wrote a book about my depression. And she speaks at my events. Sometimes she's like, Yeah, I've learned so much from Chloe, because of what I used to do. And I She's like, I was the one that was saying these things, because she knows now it wasn't supportive, but it was just how uneducated she was, as well.

And as a parent, I imagine guilt. Because like I've done this, like what what have I done that my child's like this shame, all of those things that go hand in hand with grief. And the other thing that comes to mind is you said there about harder, it's harder to help other people through the Depression. And again, that that marries up with all forms of grief. It's an i My mother in law talking about when when she was sick, so she's a cancer survivor. She knew she was going to be okay. But everyone else around it was just in panic mode, because they're looking at all the different possibilities. And I just wonder if that's the case, through all levels of grief where, where the person dealing with it's able to cope, but everyone from the outside they're not really sure what to do because we don't have the skills right.

Speaker 2 29:42

Yeah, exactly. And also a lot of the time, yes, with you know, physical illnesses. You can see sometimes even physical illnesses. Sometimes you can't see anything, especially with mental illnesses, you can't and so we struggled to, from my experience of how psychology works as we struggled to Risk assess. uncertainty creates that reaction. Because we can't see it, you know, okay, I can see that you've broken your leg? Well, in my experience that takes XYZ amount of time to fix, for example, but when you can't see something, you don't know how severe it is, you can't if you've never experienced it yourself, maybe it can be quite challenging. And also, we're like, Well, how do I help you, you know, especially when it comes to mental illness or any sort of grief, you know, Grief can show up in sadness, it can drop in anger, it can show up in loads of different ways. I don't know how you're gonna, I don't know what version of you're gonna see today. So, so much uncertainty that comes with it. And I think, you know, it's hard for the person experiencing it. But imagine being that person that doesn't know how that person is going to show up, or what to say what not to say, I literally wrote this in my book, it was a chapter of conversation with my mom, pretty much it wasn't like that at the time. But it was like, This is what not to say, this is what to say instead, because I wish someone had given that to my loved ones when I was going through depression.

So good. And I think that's the case. Again, if you look at grief, from a loss perspective, from from maybe someone passing away, often people don't know what to say. And then they say things that are really not helpful. So similar scenario, or they just retreat and say nothing at all, because they because they're not sure. And having been on both sides of that, like, it's, it's tough, because again, unless you've got some strategies and tools, then not really sure what to do. So I was gonna ask this later, but it seems appropriate now. So you have a business that doesn't necessarily relate to this. But is there a, is there a part of you that has a real desire to help people through? I mean, it sounds like you're doing it with with people, you know, anyway. But is there a desire to have a bigger positive influence in this space for you?

Speaker 2 31:41

100% Yeah, and it's funny, because you mentioned that it doesn't really connect my business, and it doesn't. But what I've noticed is my business is slowly niching into this area. So what I run a bit publishing business on a press and PR business, and I'm noticing now that I'm attracting people, because the whole brand is inspired. So the podcasts and the the book publishing business called Inspired by publishing, right, and I'm noticing that I'm attracting people that have inspiring stories that have self help books, personal development, books, spiritual books, healing books, and I'm noticing that my passion for this, and my experience in the depression and the anxiety, and everything comes with that, and merging together. And actually, now I'm noticing when I'm selecting books to publish, I'm always leaning more towards Oh, I'd love to learn how that I'd love to read your story, I'd love to. And I'm noticing and you know, I've had some incredibly successful people that teach things that have nothing to do with this. But I'm like, Oh, I'd rather publish that person's book, because I really, I'm really interested in it. So it's definitely marrying up. And I think the mission I'm on now is to help other people learn that they can inspire others through their story. So many people are ashamed of their story. You know, I can't tell anyone I remember when I, when we first met, we were both, you know, working with a mentor. And I was just starting to tell my story of my depression very early on in my journey. And, and I remember other people saying to me, you can't tell people that you've had depression, no one will invest in you, if you've been had depression, people will think you're American, you know, you won't want to have a business if you're depressed. And I was. So just like, shocked by that. Because, you know, people thought I would be broken, and I wouldn't be inspiring. But what I've learned now, and what I try and encourage people to do is your inspiring story matters. And if we hold on to it, because we're ashamed, or we're scared, or we're nervous, we're not doing we're doing a disservice to us, we're doing a disservice to the people that need it, you know, and so you're absolutely right there. The worlds are colliding.

As we progress through, very cool. Yeah, I think the reason that most of us are drawn into that space of helping people is because of our own pain, and be wondering if this equates but if the pain is big, then then your ability to help people is big. And I think people, I don't know, if you've experienced this, maybe you don't do sort of as sort of tailored social media now. But when I put out my posts about the bad stuff that's happened. That's the stuff that gets the best engagement, because people are like, oh, right, rally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, like you said, I've made mistakes again, and again, I've had things go wrong again, and again and again. But the desire to then come out the other side is what helps you to be better at what you do.

Speaker 2 34:21

Yeah. And it's because people connect with humans, you know, we're all human. And if we can connect that have a connection with other people, I think a lot of people love it when we're just vulnerable on social media. Like, you know, it doesn't matter if you've got 100 followers or 100,000 followers, if you can show your vulnerability people are like, Oh, it's a real person. Chloe is a real human. She has good days bad days too, you know, not saying do a Facebook Live of you crying your eyes out. I've done that once before. I would not recommend it. It's one of those things. I think it can just help us show that not not everything is sunshine and roses and perfect all the time.

Yeah, absolutely. So So Where where's the turning point? So You said that you went, you went through that time, and then you started to get some help? Was it just a gradual step? Or was there a moment breakthrough moment? Or like, how did it unfold for you after that?

Speaker 2 35:13

Yeah, so I wouldn't say it was a turning point. So it was a turning point. But it wasn't a quick thing. So I had gone on this journey, and I started healing myself. And I'd say the last month of my leave, I was starting to feel a bit better. And I had started studying psychology, which is relevant to this because I was high achiever wanted to understand what was going on in my brain. When I had been depressed. I don't remember this, but my mom remembers it really well. Apparently, everyone kept offering me self help books. And apparently, I said to her, if someone gives me another self help book, I'm gonna throw it at them. I was like, I do not want to read any more self help books about anything to do with this. I just want to know what happens.

The irony of what you're doing now is Yes,

Speaker 2 35:55

right? Isn't it? I'm like, Yeah, let's just publish more stuff up. And apparently, I said to my mom, in my depression, one day, I'm gonna write a book about this. And I'm going to tell people, not the facts, not the psychology, but I'm gonna tell them the real stuff behind it. And that's what then I did four years later, and I don't remember even when I was writing the book, my mom said, You do know you've always planned this to die. The High Achiever of me must have thought there's got to be, there's got to be a result out of here somewhere, you know. And so I started journaling my process, and I started learning psychology. And that was the big turning point for me. Because my High Achiever wanted to understand in my brain, well, what's actually happening? What is going on, you know, people say it's a chemical imbalance, what what does that mean? And how can I fix it, I studied Neuro Linguistic Programming wanted to understand like the user manual of our brains. And that was when it changed. So then when I went back into the corporate world, I was nowhere near the same person as I left, and it just was not the same. It just felt so different. And then the real turning point for me was then, as I was back, the company I'd been working for had been transitioning, and obviously being on for six months, I'd be making loads of plans. And basically, my role didn't really exist anymore. And then flash forward a few months, I was made redundant.

So they had to lead enough time past that it was not too ruthless, but they didn't already. They already planned it by the sound of it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, that must have been a setback in itself. Was it? Or did that actually? Yeah.

Speaker 2 37:22

Oh, gotcha. It sent me right back. I wouldn't say as far back but the one thing when I'd say about two to three months left of my time off, and my sick leave. The only thing getting me through it was pushing back to getting into I want to find my old stuff again. That was constantly I don't know if anyone can relate to that. But I want to be the old me, how can I find the old me back? Little did I know that she wasn't there anymore, nor that was healthy to try and go back there anyway. And so the person I knew had been great at my job. And I wanted to prove I could still get back to work. So the sole thing I was focusing on big thinker vision was just get that result, just get back into workplace just prove myself. So then when I came there, and then was made redundant, it was like, what now? And it just set me back. But I had more tools in my toolkit to handle it. So it was like, well, actually, I journaled it out, did I even want that job? You know, what are my values that I've now found? And how did they, that Job didn't align any more. So that's why I didn't feel the same coming back. And that's when this whole like, I think I'd love to help people with this, the whole journey started and that it was actually the medical professionals. When I when I got made redundant, they said, Look, we can sign you off again, if you want, because, you know, this is another loss, happy would meet the definition, you've had depression in the past. And they said, Look, we can either, you know, you've got two options, you can either go and get another job, or we can sign you off, and just have you know, even more time off on paid leave. And I was sat there going, I don't really want either of these, you know, I'm 2024 years old. I what they were implying as well, they didn't say it legally, they can't. But they basically said, just get an easy job. You know, just like get something where you don't have to stress yourself, you know, that's probably the best for your future. And I certainly don't, I'm 24 years old. I'm such a high achiever. I'm so stubborn, I'm so determined by didn't want either of these options. So I just create a third and start my business. And every thought was absolutely crazy. They were like you've got you just have depression. You've just lost a job. You're a no fit state start a business. And I was like, watch me.

Love it. And when I said before, it's probably five or six years since we chatted just thinking about the pandemic three years, which is skewed our memory is probably even closer to 910 years because it wouldn't have been too long after this stage, would it?

Speaker 2 39:26

No, it was I think was straight after I think we met we met must must have been six months since I think I don't Yeah, about six months of being in business.

There. Wow. lots changed since then. If you look back in hindsight, would the timeline match up with the suppressing depression around what you said like the separation of your parents?

Speaker 2 39:53

Oh, yeah, definitely. So I I didn't realize at the time, the impact that My daughter My parents had had on me. So tiny bit of context. They were I was an only child. And they divorced when I was 10. And they didn't properly speak into my 21st birthday. So I was sort of the middle person I'd be planning, which has some staying. And, you know, they didn't know any different at the time. So I don't you know, they had the best they had with what they could, what they had done was they wanted me to have the most stable environment and not miss out on seeing either them. So I basically moved house every day. So it was like one day, my mom's want that my dad's one day at my mom's or that my dad's. Now what I know is that's maybe not the most stable environment for a child, but they didn't know any different needed a medical threat for. And so what I learned was I was constantly adapting. And I was constantly changing, because I was changing locations. You know, how my dad was how my mom was very different. And so I could that was one of my people pleasing was love from such a young age. Because in order to please my mom, I had to do this. And what if he's my dad, I had to do this. And they were both in pain. They were both so suffering with the divorce, but neither of them talked about it. Kids are very intuitive. We know that. I didn't know that time how much I learned and picked up from that. And that just completely, you know, the only way I saw them both happy at times was when I did well. So I got a good grade, Chloe's so Chloe, you're fantastic. I did this. Well, you're great. And so I learned that me being a high achiever made them happy. Hence the journey on to I want to get the best job I want to I can't go to university to prove everyone wrong. I want to get you know, I want to be a manager. I want to be a director. And

yeah, and the fast pace, right? Yeah, literally jumping from one environment to the next every single day. Yeah, like, cool. So you be interesting, you probably don't have it necessarily have a memory of it. Because I always thought that these patterns were created at a much younger age. And maybe they were, but really noticeably reinforced through that time, like, amazingly, it's something that really shines a light on something I'd say on here all the time is like it's not your fault. It's like these circumstances that have led you to this very moment of so much of a product of things that just out of your control, like you're a child doing the best that you can, with parents who are also doing the best they can. And stuff happens it gets you off track. Yeah. You then went from the dog and settled down for everybody. You just went you went then from into a space where you at some point that you got to I got a relationship, a serious relationship. Now, you said we before we jumped on, we did the sort of fast version. But you said that, that that also didn't end very well. Do you see the link between what unfolded for your parents as well? In any way?

Speaker 2 42:56

Yeah, me. So what I learned was, because I'd never seen a healthy relationship. And I don't mean that in a in a harsh way to my parents, you know, they both loved each other, but they just weren't a good fit. And so, you know, from an age of 10, both of them are going their separate ways, both and trying to find their own journeys again, find themselves again, I'd never been around a couple that what love looks like, if that makes sense. I've never been a child didn't have like, I wasn't very close to the rest of my family quite isolated. I never saw artists and uncles who looked like a good relationship, you know, so I was always looking for that. And I had been in a relationship with someone for four and a half years. Thought that was it. You know, I think we'd got together when we were I was at 90. And I was like, you know, match made in heaven. Both got great jobs bought house together, you know, it was on the narrow road to the future kids, family, everything. And, and I was what I've learned now was I was trying to find this stable home with a family and a house and a partner and everything I didn't have growing up. But to the point where I always wanted to be the best girlfriend, you know, I was very, you know, people pleasing. Oh, sure. You want to go party with everyone off you go, I'll be home when you're ready, you know. And what then transpired him was him being quite unfaithful. And he was unfaithful behind my back for about three months, with a close friend of mine actually. And so when that whole thing came about, I then found that was the what I've now learned was the main trigger that triggered my whole depression coming in the first place. Because then what happened was, that was where, you know, I wasn't in denial of anything, everything was good. But that was when my big you know, people say there's a big event that usually triggers such a breaking point. That was it. Because everything you thought I knew, I thought I'd had a great relationship. I thought I had a great home. I thought I had great friends. It was like the whole thing came crumbling down. And what I've now learned was that the trauma experience and that was me thinking oh my god, I felt like my parents did. It was like they couldn't match Is your relationship, not no fault of either their own, by the way, like they're both very happily in other relationships now. But that was my thought process unconsciously, which I've learned was that I've learned that behavior. And I remember, because it was so severe the cheating a lot of my friends were like, as if you're even considering staying there because didn't have kids. We weren't married, it wasn't like we had that. I think it's different when there are other things involved. Other than a house, we didn't have ties. And I really believe the only reason I considered it was because I didn't want it. I didn't want to leave and have the same pattern. As my parents. I was so adamant. I wanted this really healthy relationship, and I wanted it to look good. And I wanted the house to be good and everything. And then in the end, I did walk away, because I was like, this is just not, this isn't right for me. And, yeah, it was a bit of a big lot of trauma. But I didn't know at the time because again, results focused brain went on right, let's just, let's just practically deal with this. And

and I imagine the high performer in you didn't want to admit defeat right. Now I can still make this work.

Speaker 2 46:01

Yeah, yeah. And even worse when it when such a funny story that we laugh about it, because I actually do speak to both of them now. It's quite funny. At the time, when it all happened, we had a very close group of friends. So our whole friendship group sort of like went separate ways. And I remember we had a friend's birthday party about a month later. And I was like, I'm going to this birthday party, because everyone thinks I'm damaged right now everyone is looking at me, you know, feeling sorry for me and wondering how close he is. And you're gonna be going because you're a social butterfly, and you like to be around everyone. So this is what's going to happen. I remember having a conversation with him on the day, I said, Look, we're going to go into this pub, we're going to see everyone at the party, and everyone's gonna be watching to see how we react. So we're both gonna go to the bar, or you're going to buy me a drink, we're going to chairs and we're going to go our separate ways, but we're going to have a smile on their face. And he said, Okay, and we did it. And you know, and it was hilarious, because everybody walked in, everybody just watched to see what was going to happen. You know, it's a bit like people checking the dynamic of a room, you know, and we had the drink, to be fair to the guy and he bought me a drink cheers me. And we went our separate ways. But the whole energy changed. And it was like, okay, we can all relax now. They're fine. But what I learned, that was my people pleaser, again. Because I wasn't fine. I was livid. I was so frustrated at the person. But I thought I don't want to lose my friends. I don't want people to feel uncomfortable, which I think when we go through grief, we're often thinking other people, I can't tell them, it will make them feel uncomfortable. I didn't want our friends to feel uncomfortable. I also didn't want him the guy that cheated on me to feel uncomfortable. I wanted him to still have a normal life. And so I just realized I was doing this whole pattern again and again of just pleasing to make him feel comfortable and everyone else feel comfortable when I was not comfortable at all.

Hmm. Do things come up, they're even presenting to the world, you wanted to make sure that was a high performance. So you you strategize than you planned and put all that in place. The other thing is, is another thing that I've I've seen with grief, and particularly for the highly sensitive people like yourself is even in those dark moments, more worried about what's going on for everyone else than what's going on for yourself, which I guess is another form of suppression, right? Yeah. Yeah. Is that something that shows up in other ways as well, like, putting other people like because I know, as a reformed people pleasing myself, it can still grab you at those moments where you're like, why am I doing this for me? Or am I doing this for someone else? So So is there a good example of that, where that might still play out at times?

Speaker 2 48:29

Yeah, all the time. I think, especially when you're in a caring business like we are, you know, we're around other people that care, where we support other people. It can creep in a lot. I've noticed it when I'm working with clients, and I want them to book their book to get done. And then they miss a deadline I got off, you know what, we'll just can't squeeze it in anyway. You know, and that's a small thing. But if it impacts me working late, it impacts me asking the team to work late. One thing I've noticed that catches me as I'll never ask the team to people, please, I'll always people, please. So I've noticed that if it's them that has to work late, I'll be like, No, we can't do it. And I'm very protective of our team, with our clients. I'm like, sorry, you miss your deadline, I'm not gonna ask the team to work a weekend because of my boundaries around them. But I've noticed with myself, I'm not quite as there yet. You know, even like this interview, you know, getting up really, and I'm like, No, I'd love to drag you in. You know, it's, it's, it's one of those things, but I've noticed, you know, you mentioned it's like, Am I doing it for me, or am I doing it for them and I've got to check in on that I love doing this, this I'm doing this for me. There's so many times I'll be like, like I speak a lot of events and I I'll travel for a whole day pay stay in a hotel, go to an event and I'm just like, Oh, am I hang on? Am I doing this? Am I speaking on their stage for them or me? Like is this gonna give me you know, feedback, a good result, whatever. But I find that there is that balance of that check point because it's it's a habit and for me it was formed at such a young age. You know, it takes a while to catch yourself and go hang on is this is this a me or them and my check point is normally, if I say yes to this So to them, does that mean I'm saying no to myself?

That's a good way of looking at it. Yeah. And I find that no matter how much you continue to get better at boundaries, there's always another layer to it. And the one I'm working through at the moment is the people pleasing through, like taking on other people's stuff like, and that's something I've worked on for years and years and years. But it's like, at the enth degree, like I have the ability to be able to tune into what people are going on, but I can choose not to. Yeah, it's just that validation from, like you said, from a young age that it's always been validated. So how do I find another way of validating that fascinating space? And again, I guess it's what drives us on to continue to try and improve so that we, we can be better, which of course then flows through onto the other people? That's so that's a great question, is this actually happy isn't going to make me happy is doing this for me? I wanted to ask you another question around your own strategy, because fast paced, people can often find it hard to slow down. So what strategies you put in place, because I know you've worked hard at this, just slow yourself down and to be able to give yourself that space to be able to switch off.

Speaker 2 51:15

Yeah, oh, God, it is an asset, a constant battle honestly. And people sound like it's such a, it's such a great problem to have, it can be really challenging. So I'd sort of describe it, I feel like I live my life on a treadmill, that's going too fast. So if anyone's ever experienced that at the gym, where you're walking, and it's a bit too fast, it can't go like Should I slow it down? Should I not? That's how I feel I live my life, you know, I send a voice note to someone and they're like, God, this is on 1.5 already, and I can't slow it down. But everything is so fast, even when I talk about results, because they've got to slow myself. So I it is a constant thing. couple of key things I do is just daily habits, I don't believe that there is one thing you can do that will change it forever. It's a constant thing, because it's a constant way of life. So for me, it's so mentioned a lot. But for me it's journaling and meditating. I do it every morning without fail. Yeah. And I also added a new thing, which I haven't done today, because I got really early today. But I normally go for a walk in the morning at half an ounce The first thing I do in the morning, certainly, and I travel so much no matter where I am, before I go into my hotel, I check out what's around me, and I'll do a 20 minute half an hour walk. So within 10 minutes of waking up, I'll just go and just be somewhere outside with nature, it might be raining, especially in the UK, it rains a lot. It might it might be you know, sun, and those sorts of things, just bring me back to the moment. So I would say that my three daily habits no matter what. And then the other thing is my boundaries, but time boundaries. Because everyone has the same amount of time in the day, we'll talk about it right well got 24 hours in a day. But what I've noticed people who do are high performing or have, you know, strong need to succeed is they will try and do more in less time, because that's the feeling of succeeding, I need to tick things off my to do list. So instead of working a five hour day, or a seven hour day will go up to 12 hours, I can stretch that muscle, and I have stretched that muscle and I can do 16 hour days comfortably, which is not healthy, and I do not recommend it. So I've physically put markers in my diary, where I've blocked out off from after five o'clock on an evening and before the morning, and there might be times like this where I'll move it because that's something I'm passionate about. But I'm so strict on that. And I've had to actually grayed out and my calendar, like you can't put anything on top of that. And it's just respecting that time and time again.

Yeah, so good. It's usually counterintuitive, like, just because you're good at it. And just because you can do it, it doesn't mean you should. And high performance, done the right way will be positive, but high performance to the extreme. It always has a negative payoff, I actually did a bit of high performance stuff posting. Like I literally recorded that just before we came on, which is fascinating. But the people listening to this will have gotten it a couple of weeks ago. And it was exactly that on that like you can, you can get like they're a great performers and high achievers all over the place. But if they're pushing themselves too hard, it's always going to come with a trade off, whether it's impacting family, whether it's impacting their friends, their health, all of these things. So those two things that you mentioned those three things right exercise as well. I'm so glad you brought that up. That's why the big beaming smile because the longtime listeners hear me talk about journaling and meditation all the time. Because if you are not ready to get help from someone else, then those are the two key skills. So I'm glad you shared that he's a high performer sharing those two skills. Things. Fantastic. Can you share with us? You said saying no is so important. Now I know that that is something that can be so very difficult for people. So how do you build that muscle of being a How to say no. Particularly when you're a people pleaser and that find that so difficult.

Speaker 2 55:04

Yeah. So the first thing is create time. Most of us say yes, straight away without thinking. So that someone says, how are you? I'm great. How are you? You're not. Some of us are not great, but we say it anyway. It's autopilot. So when somebody says, Can you do this? You can say yes. And then think afterwards, actually, oops, I probably should have said no, or I'm not sure. So firstly, I always say to people is never say yes to anything too quickly. Whether it's a message, you can read it, don't reply for 20 minutes an hour. If it's another conversation, you can say, Oh, gee, lots of great, great idea, I'd love to do it. But I don't want to over commit, let me just let you know, by time, because when you have time, then you can check yourself because remember, people pleasing is autopilot for many of us. So we need to create space to think about these things. Then when you've created space, the thing I always do, which sounds so cliche, but I just checked my values. So I will say is this in line with my values. So for example, one of my values is flexibility. I love the fact that I can travel those places and speak on stages and be anywhere. But if I'm then stuck to a routine of one thing every day in a certain place, and I like does that allow me have flexibility? No. So then I'll say no. So it becomes for me, it becomes easier because it's not my decision. It's my values decision. It's like, all right, values aren't allowing that. And, you know, that's just my way of doing it. Rather than thinking, I'm saying no to that person, it's like, this isn't my decision, almost a bit like I've got a board of directors that I check in with, which are each of my values. I'm not just me.

Yeah, that ties in nicely, again, with high performance strategies, like you stick to process because I'm taking the emotion out. And so having that values check in is another process that will allow you to make a decision without the emotion. That's so good. I'm gonna use that one. Actually, we've been thinking, as you've been talking, I've been in businesses where the values are up on the wall, but they're merely stuff on the wall. Whereas I've got mine in a document and I know them, and if you ask me, I dig them out. But it might they need to be there. So I can be running it through that filter every day as well. That's cool. Thank you. Now, I mentioned before about the cause, and you said, yeah, absolutely. And you're and you're finding that you're attracting people in there with that similar cause. But is there something beyond that, that you love to be able to give back to people who have been through what you've been through? So they don't have to go through the depths that you did? Yeah,

Speaker 2 57:21

I'm just, it's one. It's such a passion thing. You know, as I said, I mostly go on podcasts and speak on stages about book publishing and marketing. And so, you know, when logically, people say to me away from an a podcast about grief or depression, like I could do this all day, because for me, it makes that pain worth it. So if I can tell it speak on stage and or on podcast and tell people, you know, you might feel damaged now, but I promise you, there is a way out if you follow the steps, you know, I It has absolutely nothing to do with my business. But I could do it all day, because I just think is we don't need to suffer in silence. And I think a lot of people say, you know, talk about it, you know, it's okay not to be it's again, it's okay. I actually disagree. I don't think it's okay to not be okay. It's okay to not feel 100% But it's not okay to sit there and not be okay. I've said that. Sounds a bit weird now, but you get my jest. It's like, I think the worst thing we can do is one, try and talk to someone who's maybe not supportive or because they're struggling with the idea of it, or to not want to tell anyone, because the world we live in now says Oh, it's okay not to be okay. It's okay to just sit there and be sad. Well, no, it's not because every day of your life is worth living. And that's such a cliche phrase, but you've got to get through this stuff. So exactly like study. And I always say to people, you know, even if you don't want to talk about you don't have anyone to talk to, you know, you've always got a journal, you've always got something you can write down, you've always got something you can process. Ask yourself curious questions. That's one of my other values is curiosity. I'm so nosy. And I'm nosy of myself. I'm like, Why did I do that? How did I do that? Where did that come from? You know, and I'm just so curious. So unpack the layers on my own now in my journal. So I just for me, I just want to I want if I can talk to me about this every single day and just help other people get inspired and feel different. Or even just that take that 1% away where they think you know what, I'm actually broken, then. Yeah, so worth it.

Fantastic. Chloe, where can people find out more about your story and if they're so inclined to get their book published?

Speaker 2 59:18

Oh, how exciting. So first of all, I'm on all social media channels clearly based on official. And also I have actually written a book about my journey of depression. It's got absolutely nothing to do with my book publishing business, nothing to do with business at all in there. However, you can have a look at it, get grab a coffee, get a copy of it, it's on Amazon, it's on Barnes and Noble water all the usual platforms. It's called determined and dangerous. I wrote it four years ago. And we've recently just re published it with some new extra value in there that I've learned on my journey. So obviously, as I said, absolutely nothing to my book publishing business other than the fact that is a book but it has helped 1000s of people say I would love for you guys to grab your copy and I can't wait to hear what you think.

Love it. Nothing and yet everything at the same time. Okay, exactly. It's one of those things you're like, oh god. Chloe, thank you so much we talked about before we wanted to get this into an hour because you've got somewhere you've got to go was never going to be in doubt, fast paced, but to the point and so much value. Thank you so much.

No problem. And thank you so much for having me.

I hope you enjoyed this episode of The Grief Code podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Please share it with a friend or family member that you know will benefit from hearing it too. If you are truly ready to heal your unresolved grief, let's chat. Email me at info at Ian Hawkins coaching.com You can also stay connected with me by joining the Grief Code community at Brooklyn's coaching.com forward slash The Grief Code and remember, so that I can help even more people to hear. Please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform