Life Can Still Improve After The Loss Of Loved Ones with Marie Alessi

Ian Hawkins 0:02

Are you ready, ready to release internal pain to find confidence, clarity and direction for your future, to live a life of meaning, fulfilment and contribution to trust your intuition again, but something's been holding you back, you've come to the right place. Welcome. I'm a Ian Hawkins, the host and founder of The Grief Code podcast. Together, let's heal your unresolved or unknown grief by unlocking your grief code. As you tune into each episode, you will receive insight into your own grief, how to eliminate it and what to do next. Before we start by one request, if any new insights or awareness land with you during this episode, please send me an email at info at the and Hawkins coaching.com. And let me know what you found. I know the power of this work, I love to hear the impact these conversations have. Okay, let's get into it.

Welcome, everyone, and welcome to this week's guests. Marie Alessi, Marie, how are you? I haven't really good, how are you in really good. It's cool to be talking to someone who works in a similar space.

Unknown Speaker 1:19

I agree. Yeah, man,

Ian Hawkins 1:21

I really enjoyed being on your podcast a while back for those people who are regular listeners to the podcast would have heard that because I did put it on my podcast as well. Yeah, and I think I said to you at a time I really enjoyed, I really enjoyed that. You able to bring out a whole different way of telling my story that I hadn't done before. And I

Unknown Speaker 1:43

really loved it. It was vulnerable. And I really appreciated that you shared it so openly.

Ian Hawkins 1:48

Yeah, I did too. And I appreciated the space you held for me while we did that. That was cool. So now we get to reverse the roles. So I won't go into too much detail about the journey. But we connected on LinkedIn. Because of that. We're both working in the green space. So yeah. Tell our listeners, Marie, what is it that you do? And how long have you been doing them for?

Unknown Speaker 2:16

So what is it that I do in a nutshell, it would probably be with a label that I sold on like it's grief coaching. So I I just literally hold space for people who are in a space of grief. But I always look at the healing path. So I'll always focus on the healing rather than on a grief for me grief is something that happens on the sideline, naturally if we focus on the healing. And how long have I been doing that? What's that your other question? Yeah, yeah. So the coaching per se for over a decade, the focusing on the healing space in terms of grief, probably for over three years now. Yeah.

Ian Hawkins 3:00

I'd be interested to hear as you look back on that previous 10 years, is a lot of what you were doing was helping people with their grief, even if you didn't know it through that lens at the time.

Unknown Speaker 3:12

Oh, 100%. Yes. Yeah. Because it's all about, you know, for me, if I could sum it up in one word while I do it. So shifting your perspective, that's a huge part of healing, really looking at things from different angles? Yeah.

Ian Hawkins 3:27

Yeah. 100%. Or let's get more into the nitty gritty. So, whereabouts on the grief journey? Are you helping people? Because I know, we've talked about that we do come in at a different angle. Yeah. So see, we're about to the grief journey? And is there a specific type of grief that you tend to attract? And that you tend to work with more and a type of type of person?

Unknown Speaker 3:50

Yeah, absolutely. So I would say my main audience, per se, would probably be widows between 45 and 55. If you want to have the whole demographic of it, work with relatively young widows. However, when I started my movement, loving life after loss, I attracted a whole lot of people that really, that were driven to that to that title to that filter, I call it you know, the loving love after loss part was the difference maker actually the differentiator between what most grief groups offer and what I offer, it's the loving life after loss part that people were so driven to. So it automatically attracted more and more people and also more and more men into the group, although my audience is definitely predominantly female, because that's who I am. That's who I relate to, and usually attract those people who are quite a similar on the path like you are.

Ian Hawkins 4:48

Yeah, really cool. And I'd love to hear a bit more about exactly the process that you take your clients through and Maybe even through the lens of is there a common thread of what people are presenting when they when they show up? They wanting to get to that place of loving life after loss? Which, which I love that title, by the way? Is there a certain cue? Is there a certain patterns that you're seeing repeating? And then how do you help? What's the sort of the style of the journey? To see that from a different perspective?

Unknown Speaker 5:22

So the start of the journey for me is always like, where do I pick people up from? And it's such an interesting question, the end, because the thing is, for me, I don't really talk about loss with this wording anymore, I really don't like the word loss because he can become something so completely different. It really can become a gift. And I understand I'm saying that with a whole lot of love and respect for everybody being in a different space in their journey, it can feel like a slap in the face when somebody says that to you too early. So I want to say that with a lot of respect. I certainly talked about loss a lot when first or when Rob first passed. So Rob is my husband, for those who don't know, and and nowadays, I don't use the word loss as much anymore. I talk about his passing, I talk about his transition I talked about when Rob died. I don't like labelling it as loss anymore, because I received so many hidden gifts in adversity. That's the one thing I talk about a lot. That I don't like the word loss, it's it gives it such a negative label. And, yes, it was a super painful experience in my life. Don't get me wrong. Yet what you do with it is what matters in life. And I certainly created something really beautiful out of Rob's passing. So that in itself already answers half of your question, you know, everybody's journey of grief is so different. And it's just as unique as the person experiencing it. So I do not really follow patterns or steps per se, although I do have a healing journey was seven steps. Don't get me wrong. Because I feel this is like the common element. You know, we talk about shifting perspectives that that is what is underlying in my entire approach to the path to healing. I predominantly work with intuition. Like really, when people come to me, I just looked just like you. And I know you do that too. I feel a lot I feel it in even physically in my body where the pain suits and sometimes I even feel under paying this trapped. And I let myself be guided by that. However, there is a massive tool bill that I have where I'm like, have you tried these? Have you tried that heavy? And all of that can help? And sometimes none of that helps? It really depends on the person. But I do have my tool belt? Absolutely. And I do have certain steps. Yet it's not something that I go like, Okay, this is my constant approach. This is what you need to do in that order. If that makes sense. I hope that answers your question.

Ian Hawkins 8:01

Yeah, it does. And I really want to celebrate that because I see too many people out there guiding people to say, you've got to come in and do it my way. And this is how you do it, particularly around something as sensitive of grief as grief. Oh, yeah. Instead of giving them a a space where they can find their own way. And then you being able to give them whatever the unique strategy they need. Yeah, the thing what you're doing, just to just to really celebrate that is yes, the healing is an important part of the journey. And in my own experience, I think about actually having strategies and processes to follow, which will work for me, like that's been the absolute game changer. Yeah. Because then you don't feel stuck in that. And again, we'll use the word loss because that's where most people? Yeah, absolutely. It's like, so, yeah, I love that.

Unknown Speaker 8:55

I think there is some real art to being able to hold space for people and get to know them in that space. So you know, where you pick them up from and what you could even suggest, like really allowing yourself to be guided by their intuition. And I know that you really know what I'm talking about here, because you do it so well. You know, you feel things you you really do hold that space for people that come into your space. And I certainly always feel like when I even just jump on camera with you. There's this instant all this that space for me, you know, and I love that. It's really beautiful to be able to do that for people.

Ian Hawkins 9:27

Yeah, and I would say the same thing for you, Marie. Like I said, when when when you interviewed me, that was exactly the experience that I had, and it's fantastic. And and we need to Well, I believe we need to normalise this more, because there are so many people out there who do this naturally and don't realise that they do it, which is part of that thing that keeps us stuck. Anyway, we might come back to that. Because I want to I want to then go You mentioned you mentioned Rob, but I don't want to make an assumption to the answer to this question. But I asked you if Have you looked at your whole life? What was the moment where everything changed?

Oh, wow, that's a loaded question I can I could feel this whole myriad of things that came to mind. There were a lot of moments that were quite life changing for me. Childhood moments that were life changing. My dad's passing when I was 20 was very life changing, for me, very life changing. And to the point where even now, where I'm dealing with this whole, you know, creating this path for us that loving life after Rob's passing after a loss, where I realise so many hidden gifts that I have received through my dad's passing, that I was even not aware until Rob pass, and I started using them, or I started becoming aware of them, which is incredible. I'm going to I'm going to mention quickly, one simple example that is so huge, even though it's simple, it's so huge. I never had the chance to say goodbye to my dad. And it really haunted me for a long time. And it was really hard for me to accept and learn to accept the fact that I did not get the chance to say goodbye to him. He passed very shortly after my 20th birthday, or 12 days after. And it was something that taught me in a most brutal way, in a most direct way in a most ruthless way. To live a life with no regrets. I never ever left a chance. You know, unused or if that's the right word, to say to somebody, what I feel for them, you know, I tell people all the time, how amazing they are, or something really beautiful that they do. Even strangers on the street. My boys are so so used to it now like that, I will pass and tell the lady oh my god, your dress is so beautiful, it makes you smile look even brighter, or things like that, you know, little compliments, or when somebody's got a really beautiful smile, or a couple in particular. Oh my god, I love love. So I tell couples all the time. You to just look so incredible together, you've got such a beautiful energy, whatever. I just tell people all the time. So it resulted in Rob and I living a relationship of no regrets. When Rob passed, even though it was completely sudden. And again, I did not have the chance to say goodbye to him. I didn't feel the need for it at that stage. Because I had said everything to him that I needed to say. And I did not ever feel oh my God, I wish I would have said I wish I didn't do I wish, you know, I had none of that. So I feel really, really privileged to not have any regrets. Because a lot of people have that when somebody passes. And that is a gift that I received through my dad's passing. Do you know what I mean? So simple, yet huge in the outcome. I really love that I feel very privileged to have that.

Beautiful. And that's what I love about you is that you do like you let people know where they're at. And you can feel that how heartfelt that is, which is we talked before we jumped on, we talked about celebration, and I feel like this is going to be a lot about that is like I really, really want to celebrate that again for you because it's underutilised and undervalued way of living, I nearly said tall. It's not at all. It's just a way of being. And that's amazing. Now, I'm going to work this this way. And I know you'll be able to receive it the right way. For the listeners. This is not the first conversation that Maria and I have had. So I'm not going to say this this way, without knowing that this will be okay. When you answer that question about what was the moment that changed everything, Now, clearly losing your partner is going to have a massive impact. Yeah, it does feel like that. Because you've already been through grief, it wasn't the same impact as actually losing your dad. Is it fair to say that when if we look through that lens, that that was really the moment because I think about all the things you've done in your life since that moment, have you done?

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. 100% It was definitely the biggest change in my life. And also, because, you know, we talked about that previously in terms of milestones, etc and, and things that led to it. And this like if I had to pick one, life changing moment is really hard because you know, there's the birth of your children. That is huge. That is life changing Absolutely. Yet in terms of really significant change. That has an impact on not just me not just my boys, but really the entire planet. I'm playing a really big here, but this is my mission. That was Rob's passing 100% Yeah.

Yeah, that's beautiful. Are you okay? If I just ask you some more questions around that time?

Yeah, absolutely. You can ask me whatever I want. Okay.

Can you can you remember back to that time like for me, like my dad's passing, it is so etched in my memory, different, different moments, I mentioned some of those, when you interviewed me about like, the way my head went, and like, I can't believe that that's what I was thinking at the time. But can you remember some of the thoughts that that came up for you? And those moments of like, you know, just, yeah, what sort of what came up for you in terms of your own way of acting, maybe showing different insecurities or fears or anything? Oh,

I, seriously, and I was not equipped at all, when my dad died, I was not equipped to deal with it. Haha, saying that allowed us like you saw where Marie, but you know, I didn't feel I was equipped, you know, like, seriously, I still remember. And it's really, it's really so beautiful and emotional for me to say that, because I've actually, just for everybody, for context, I've got my mom's sitting down there in the living room, and I'm looking down because usually I would be downstairs in my office, which is now my guest room while she's standing here. So I'm up here in my master bedroom, I'll set up my my little office office space. And I'm looking at my mom thinking, you know, is this incredible? Because she was the one who walked into my apartment and told me that my dad had passed. And also for contacts for context, like my two sisters and me. And there's five of us as two more brothers, my two sisters and me, we're living in the same house, like my parents, but we all had our own apartment already. So my mom knocked on the door. And she walked in and told me that my dad had passed, you know, and I also vividly remember I had this loft bed that my dad had built, he was a constructional engineer. And I jumped off the loft, but I didn't even use the letter, I chopped off the loft bit, and have my mom and I said, we can do this, I still remember that. And from that moment on, I took over, because I knew that she didn't have the strength. And for whatever reason, I knew that I did. And I didn't think it through clearly. I didn't think those words or I have the strength and she doesn't or whatever. I just felt it. I knew what it was like an intuition that just took me and I went with it. So we drove to the hospital, like I was the one driving out to the countryside afterwards, after I saw my dad in hospital. I still remember because his body was still warm. And that is really, it sounds full on talking about this. But I remember holding his hand. And because he was warm, I literally felt as if he were squeezing my hand. And I know it's physically not possible. But that's what I felt clearly. And I still remember the feeling in my hand when I when I felt that. And I also remember that I was the one who covered him with the sheet when we left. And it is such a closure gesture to do that. Because I did not want a nurse to do that as part of her job. I wanted to be the one who did that. And then I drove out to the countryside. Well, my boyfriend at the time we've been together for two and a half years. You know, my dad was like a father figure to him. He drove out with me to the countryside because my brother had just moved and didn't have a phone line yet. So we couldn't even reach him we had to drive out. And I remember driving there and it was such a small country towns on luckily, people in the local little park knew where he lived. And we drove there and a walk into the garden to his house. And the garden was full of balloons and everything. And I was like, Oh my God, you have a housewarming party with 100 guests that day. And I walked in and had to tell him this. It was unbelievable. I still get emotional. Now when I talk about this because he was so intense. I was the one doing all these and I was the youngest in the family. So it was really, I just took over I took all of that on because I knew I had to it just felt like this was my duty to do that.

At this point, I'd usually ask a question, but I'm gonna just tell you what came through because I know you'll get this. Yeah. It felt to me like that moment of you just instinctively jumping down and and supporting your mum was because yes, in your heart, you knew that that's what you're meant to do. And that's what you're built for. In a way. It kind of feels like the sadness, the wave of sadness that came over me when you were telling that story. It's probably it feels like a combination of how much of other people's stuff you took on at that time and perhaps Yes. Maybe I was gonna say maybe you didn't grieve enough, but maybe it's, maybe you're going through grief in your own way. But it was more like, did you identify that? And if so, like, how did that play out for you? Because I did.

Yeah, I did, identified and I did way too late. And honestly, I have to say, after my dad passed, it took about a year, a year where I was really just really just not knowing who I was and what to do and who I wanted to become. And, you know, I was in the middle of a two year advertising college that I went to. So, you know, literally, he passed in the school holidays, and I still had another year to get through, I have no idea how would have gotten through if the teachers literally didn't carry me through that year, they were so supportive. And I remember after that year, a very close friend of mine, Issa, thank you so much, if you ever listen to this, and I've said it to her so many times in life, I thanked her for that. She really took me under her wings, and she recommended a book to me that I read back then, that also led me and that was the aim of the book, to start therapy. And literally a year after my dad's passing, I started doing therapy, and in a course of 10 years was on and off breaks, like, there were like a year or two where didn't do anything. And then I went back and I tried different forms of therapy, group therapy, Gestalt, you know, just talking, it was really incredible work that has been done there. And during that time, I'm so grateful I did this, I cannot recommend this highly enough for anyone to really seek out help from the outside, whether that's a counsellor, whether that's a coach or psychiatrists, whatever you need, what feels right for you. Trust your gut, feeling trust your heart when you meet someone, if you feel like they're helping you or not, because you're always right in here. Okay. So through all of that work that I did, I realised that that exactly what you just picked up was the key moment where I took on so much more than was mine so much more than I could carry. That whole, we can do this together resulted in a very unhealthy relationship, that my mom and I lived for a really long time. And only through Rob's passing only, actually through a book that I was recommended. Again, a book, it's really interesting. About half a year ago, I healed my relationship with my mom, after all these years, you know, it's been incredible. And having her a year is such a pleasure. Now, it never felt like that before, you know, it really was a very different experience before. Not that it wasn't a pleasure. But it was not pure, if that makes sense. So it was really, yeah, there was a lot of heaviness that has just lifted now and I love it. It's really, it's really beautiful.

Yeah. And the point you make then is really is really powerful. Because we can have a great relationship with someone, but when there's an underlying stuff that maybe at the time we don't even understand, but we just know that something not quite right. And they didn't. Yeah, yeah. And that, and it's what a blessing that you get to now. Go through that journey with your mom together. Because I know, that's the bit that I wasn't able to do with my dad is I wasn't able to move through my own stuff there. Because early days, it was all blame towards him. But me moving through my own stuff of whatever had going on through that. And really, it's all of our own journeys, right. While we were taking responsibility for the part of that we can.

Yeah, I feel very drawn to say one thing, yeah, that just came out for me, I'm just going to trust my, my instincts here. I, for a very long time, I'm talking years here really years, or maybe even decades after my dad passed. I felt like I was running around like a preacher, you know, like with every again, particularly in my early 20s telling all of my friends that were literally excuse my French here bitching about their parents going like, please make peace with your parents, please do this, please do that. And I was always on and on about how important it is. And now that you still got them and I was very much coming from a poor me perspective from a victimhood perspective. I was in my early 30s When I realised that most of my life was spent in victimhood perspective and I didn't like it so I changed it. But you need to recognise it for the first before you can change it you know, so I was running around for like a good decade. telling everyone you need to make peace you need to make peace and then it hit me like a tonne of bricks. But I think it actually happened outside of my balcony. I kind of feel like I still remember that. That feeling where I'm like oh am G here am I pray? To everyone else, you don't have any of my relationship with my mom, because my only focus was on my dad, and how I didn't have the chance and how I missed and how victimhood, victimhood. And then all of a sudden, I was like, huh, all right, you got some work to do, lady. Back to me, you know, everything you teach is always a lesson for yourself as well. And I love that once you recognise and accept that, and it's beautiful

100% of it comes through, I'm glad you did share that, because the thought that comes through is, as you were saying, that is if I look at my own journeys, we spent all this time because because I think anyone who's been through a beat change falls into that same trap. They just like, I don't want anyone else to go through that. So I'm gonna go out there until everyone and people don't want to be told your focus gets a bit sticky as well. It does. Yeah, absolutely. You could well mean well, many. Again, through is when, like, you know, make peace with your parents. My journey was realising that it wasn't about me making peace with anyone. It was about me making peace with myself. And so if that resonates with you do Oh, yes.

I said, Of course it does. I love it. Yeah.

So can we can we talk more about their relationship with your dad? There's early Yeah,

absolutely.

What was that relationship like? And are there things? So? Yeah. Are there things now that you look back on and go, Oh, that probably could have been different.

I luckily, have no regrets with a relationship with my dad, I really don't. I had many moments after he passed, or like, I wish he'd still be around, like, every time when I had, you know, a huge epiphany or a huge release around something that I've been carrying around for way too long. I wish I could have shared that with him. But I always have this you know what, he's good pole position. Anyway, he's got the balcony view, you know, he gets it. So I'm quite at peace with that. And I'm just like, thanks. You know, thank you so much for holding the space for guiding me in the wrong path on the right path. And it's just something. So in my upbringing, until about the age of 12, I was very much you know, Mom focused. And then after, like, from 12 ish onwards, my focus was fully like my dad, I became daddy's girl. Absolutely, I was just so drawn to him, I loved the wisdom that he had, the calmness that he had, he had such a presence, like, people just adored him, he was just one of those people that people naturally adored. And he was so modest about everything, you know, he had all these titles that he never used, and he was always like, can you just not use them? You know, he always just use his first name. It's like, um, Norbert, can you just not, you know, have the doctor blah, blah, blah, all these I don't even know what all these titles are called in English. But anyway, so it's like, it's not about money just. And I love that about him that he was so modest about who he was. And people were just naturally drawn to him. And so that's why I was so drawn to him, I just saw wanted to be like him, I, I loved his calmness, his presence and any excuse, you know, to spend quality time with him. It was usually walking in the ice cold in the snow with our dog in winter, and but it meant quality time with him and I so there were a lot of stargazing and deep talks about life, you know, walking our dog, so I really have beautiful memories of that. So it hit me really hard when he passed. I'm like, hold on. I needed so much more a few hours. He can't leave me. And yeah, I see it very differently now. But back then I was not equipped with those perspectives that I have now.

That that line that you said they I needed so much more of you. I think what I know, so many people, I'm sure that people you help as well. That's part of what's going on is like that. Yeah, it's it's Yeah, can't be over.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

I might come back to that, because I wanted to touch on something else is like, Clearly. Clearly, you have the ability to help absorb people's emotions. And from my experience is that we learn this behaviour from a really young age. Like, I know, for me, I was absorbing from in the womb based on these recurring nightmares I've had that have taken me back there. Yeah. Yeah. So we can we can fascinating love it. Yeah, we come back. We look back on our life and we realise that will not look necessarily backward. This is what I've learned. I just want to see how this resonates with you. So we become we get celebrated When I say celebrated, the feedback we get from life is that when we help other people to deal with their emotions, that gives us whatever need we need. Yeah. So for me, can I got connection? If there was a time where I wasn't getting it by picking your fight, and at least I got attention, because that was my journey of feeling like I wasn't getting attention. So it got validated through attention. It's only now that I realised that what actually came through and when I was watching my son do the same thing he was picking a fight with, when when he could tell there was something going on for me, maybe not consciously, but unconsciously, I feel myself reacting. And then I realised like, oh, wow, he's repeating. Yeah, that's what he's doing. And what happens, people will it is, but it also, we live a life where we feel responsible for how everyone else feels, and it shows up what you described, which is nice is you step into that responsibility role, and you take on that responsibility to make sure everyone else's okay.

Yeah. So just say this, you know, sorry, I know overtopping you that response. ability. If you have that. You use it. And we use it so much more than you sometimes actually need to, you know, so it's, it's really quite amazing. Picking that out? Sorry, put

it on. It's actually it's a great point. It fits in beautifully, because it is a gift. And so we're not talking about it being a bad thing. Well,

it is. At the same time. Yeah,

exactly. As long as we're managing, like any gift in the right way. And so for me, it played out in like, like people pleasing, always need to be responsible for evidence feeling. So I'll go around and make sure everyone's okay. It, it played out. Yeah, so if there's something going on, I have to be there because we will miss out on. So like, what sort of, can you identify patterns for you that have played out with that sort of natural responsibility for how people are feeling?

Oh, wow, I felt responsible from a very, very young age for the peace and happiness in our family, I took on this responsibility. Literally, I kind of feel like I was born with it, I was born into it. And you will love this en because I'm not really sure if you know this about me. But I was born into a family of four, that then became a family of five kids. And people often ask me, you know, where do you sit, you know how people always say, oh, every every number of sibling has also got, you know, certain behaviours, et cetera, et cetera. And I always tell them, well, when they asked me, What number are you? I'm like, I'm number one, number four, or number five, depending on how you look at it. And it was like, What am I okay, so I'm the youngest of five. So it makes me number five. I was the fourth one to come into the family. So it makes me number four in that case, but it was the first one who was who was born into the family. And then they start to click and I was like, Ah, okay, so I had three adopted siblings that came before me. First one at the age of four. And then my brother was for a year later, my two sisters who were three and one, then six months later, I was born. And then two years later, my oldest brother came into the family at the age of 11. So that in itself is already, you know, a dream for any psychologist to work through. It's like, yeah, it's very quite interesting when you look at it. So I was coming into the family, as the only one born into the family. And that made me automatically an outsider, in my own family. Family Constellation perspective. Like I've done so much work around it, believe me, I'm literally loving this myself now working through this because so often we're like, okay, that's why Okay, that's why I Yeah, that's the first one syndrome. Yeah, of course, I do that because it makes so much more sense. It helps me to understand me better why I react in a certain way. And that's why I was the one who took on all the responsibilities when my dad passed. That's why all my older siblings were I was hoping that they would help me grow up and protect me when I grew up. And I have somebody to come to, because they'll all other than me, it was vice versa. They all came to me my eldest brother came crying to me when he wanted to visit my dad's grave first because he couldn't do it on his own. So you know, I took on both of my brothers not at the same time, but for like half a year or a year that lived with me when they were going through stuff in their life. And I did it wholeheartedly and happily, yet I kept taking on way too much for my age and for my position. Oh, was always like, so was looking after me. I grew up with that. So he's looking after me, you know, not consciously like now.

Yeah. This is great utilizations. God, how many hours? Yeah. Listening can't see. But the notes I was scribbling. This could go on for days. But did your parents, parent, you or the adopted kids differently and I asked from this perspective, a friend of mine said how he was the adopted child. And he felt like his parents just tried to pander to him so that he would feel included, but he is similar to exactly what you said. Yeah, actually. Yeah, it felt like the outsider, because he wasn't getting treated as the same as the other people. And that has played out for different things in his future. Yeah.

I saw I agree. And I have this discussion with my mom as well. I'm looking. I'm looking over to her again. She's so completely oblivious to what's going on here. I love it. Probably she feels like energetically. I don't know, I'll have a chat. But, but I actually said that to her. I said, I know for a fact that he treated me differently to my siblings, and, and she often said, you know, it's like. And she said it herself. She said, sometimes I had the feeling that I wasn't giving you all the attention that you needed, out of fear that they could feel like I'm giving you more or whatever. And I can so relate to that. Because I'm a mom myself now. Now. Now I understand, you know, growing up as a teenager, you're like, I know what you're talking about mom, I know, I know, you know, you grow up thinking that you know it all, but you just don't you just don't, till you're a parent yourself. I can absolutely vouch for that no matter how much you think, you know, you don't know until you go through it, the love that you feel the fears that you have the worries of not being fair or treating them unfairly, or one thing that you love the other more or, you know, all these things that you have in your head, it's just a natural thing. Every parent goes through that no parent can told me that they don't ever think that or I never had this thought before everybody goes through it. It's how you deal with it, it's probably different in every situation, yet, going through that now having two sons that are so different, and also being a sole parent. Now, before I had rock there, were like, you go and deal with Flynn and I deal with Chad and vice versa. And then we swap. Now now it's just me, there is no splitting myself, I have to take one or the other first or whatever. And I'll try to keep it as fair as possible. But do they always feel it's fair? Definitely not. Both of them had feelings were like, Well, you always prefer him and you always prefer No, it's just situation. And I'm only human to and I'm okay with that now, but it took me a long time to be able to go like, you know what? I own it. I make mistakes. I'm human. It's just you know? So yes, certainly certainly did. Parent differently. I'm absolutely convinced about that, even if my mom did not want to accept that fact. Like when I said to her, that there is a different bond that you have with adopted kids or with your own child. And she did not want to accept that as a fact as a truth. And so obviously, it's not her truth. And that's fine. I never had the chance to talk to my dad about it. So I can't really tell what. Yeah, what he said about that.

Just listening to his talk, then every child's going to have a moment where they feel like it's not fair because we all have needs that aren't being met. And then we become in kids as adults and yes, do not having. And I think that probably responsible for a lot of the tension that goes on in the world and particularly online because there's that sense of it's not fair because someone's getting something that I'm not and it's just amazing how these patterns can play out. I'm curious about like your children clearly autofill this deeply, clearly, you are extremely gifted. Now I say this, everyone is extremely gifted in this particular space around emotions. And when you were talking about your family, like your intuitive abilities and space holding abilities, it's no surprise to me that you are having such an impact for the people that you help. I wonder Do your children well, I know your children have not just similar abilities, but probably even more advanced because you've been able to provide

I think he does.

Yeah. Well, how does that show up? And how is that challenging for you? Given that? That's just the reality of when we go on these journeys?

Yeah. So obviously I'm biassed I have to put it up front. I think my children are friggin Amazing. I really do. I also do know that they are very gifted, and they have been before Rob died, and that has just really amplified after Rob's passing. So, Jed Mlilwane, who's now as he was eight, when Rob died, he is now 12. He is a huge empath. He really has this absolute gift, like beyond measure, to feel people's emotions to understand things that people are going through for his age, which is really, really incredible. He had that from very, very young age. Like I really feel he's he was born with that, or he took it on. I don't know. But it was just really something that really stood out for me absolute huge, hard empath. Yeah, Flynn, my oldest son, he was 10 when Rob died, he's now 14. He was pure energy when he was born, bounce, bounce, bounce. And then of course, when the second son came along this whole, you know, attention seeking behaviour and having all of a sudden there's somebody else who wants love, and you're aware of the whole five love languages, aren't you? Yeah, yeah. So here I am, I rob being physical touch and acts of services, me being physical touch and quality time, having the first son where we had no idea at first, I never thought about it, at that, at that age, only when jet came along. And dynamics started to change. I looked into the love languages, and I'm like, Oh, my God, you know, Jed, my little one physical touch. So he got his love tank filled automatically with two parents who've got physical touches, main love language, and Flynn. On the other hand, he shares one with Rob, which is acts of services, and quality time. So his physical touch seems like nothing. He's like, he just felt he was missing out all the time. And with having quality time is one of his main love languages. He constantly felt like since this guy came along, I'm missing out. So there was huge jealousy that was huge attention seeking behaviour. And fast forward through Rob's passing, which resulted in Flynn being the oldest male in the family, all of a sudden, at the age of 10. Wow, no matter how much I said to him, Flynn, you're still a child, and it's okay to be a child, you don't have to take on dads do this, you don't have to out on the other hand, he was the oldest male in a family all of a sudden, you need to honour that too. And finding that balance of allowing him to stay a child. And naturally, owning what has happened is huge. It was really challenging for me, to allow him both, and to hold space for him to be able to do both. And the transition that happened, I'm having goosebumps all the way down my right side saying this, the transition that happened for Flynn in particular, between 10 and 14, going through his natural becoming a teenager, everything losing his dad, all of these things at once, you know, he now is the most calming rock in our family. He's got such a beautiful, calming presence, the presence that this child has is incredible. He's not even aware of it. I keep telling him how beautiful he is. And I'm not just saying from the outside, it's just I'm you can tell I'm a full on proud mama bear that mom in shining armour. So I really think it's incredible the gifts that they have. And it really shows when you see them with other kids, the depths that my kids go to, in terms of empathy in terms of picking up where people are at, I had the most deepest conversations with Jared about I had a relationship after Rob for 14 months. And the break up and the whole church was like I told you, I told you hearing that from your son about your relationship at the age of 1112. Very fascinating. 11 So we had this conversation about being told something about a personal having to experience yourself and what lessons are in there was such a deep conversation so beautiful. And I use one of his friends as an example that I always felt didn't have a great influence on him, but he really loves hanging out with him. So I talk about the gifts that people bring in, even if they might not be good for you for the rest of your life. And that was so beautiful to have the conversation at the age of 11 It's just, it just blows me away, you know? And he really got it. It's like, far out mom. I really get it And hearing that from your 11 year old son is like, yes. Love it.

So good. I gotta tell you this, because when I, the thought came to me, I just got full body goosebumps. So you describe your younger one as empath. Oh, let's see. Your eldest Jed. Yeah. Now the eldest is off when he was younger one. Yeah. The oldest Flynn has the same depth of that empathy. It's, it's demonstrated back is through that lens of what you said the love language? Yeah. And it's really fascinating because because we've really similar in in our two children, similar differences, similar ways they express it, and a realisation, or you will see in one just turned 18, which is, which is exciting. nerve wracking for for a month. But we've we've I mean, I think what's really clear as as you go on the healing journey that you have, is that one of the key areas that improves is your parenting, and just can't not, and providing a space for our children to be able to go and learn all the things that we didn't. is so helpful for them. So yeah, one at 115. And just watching those similar things happening, and for the longest time, I'm thinking, Oh, one's very much. Listen, one's very much well, this is actually more similar than what I think it just it's how it shows up through those different patterns. So So, so I'm curious, like, what they would both think about that, like, imagine you've had conversations about empathy and their ability to Yeah, to be responsible for other people's stuff, and how important it is for them to not realise that they have to be, because that's that both of mine have drifted into similar patterns as their parents, which is wanting to be able to help so many people but to their own detriment. Yeah.

I want to share one, one conversation that I had with my boys. And it was about a year after Rob died. And interesting enough, it happened like right here. Flynn was sitting here on the on the window, a seat, and I was in the room here, I think it was just falling, washing, whatever. And all of a sudden, the conversation came up that I saw wanted to have with the boys and did not know how to approach it. And Flynn was the one who addressed it, Flynn has got the ability to bring conversations up straight to the point like really, like, there's no mucking around. He just brings it up. And I'm so grateful, because I'm like, I would have never said that. I had a very different reason why I wouldn't have brought it up because it was the conversation about what would happen to them if something was to happen to me. And after Rob died, I did certainly not want to meet be the one bring up the conversation. Because I thought if I bring up the conversation, I would bring up fear in them. Oh my god, something came to mind as well. Now, you know, and they might have not even thought about this. So it was not my place to bring that up yet. It was my absolute heartfelt wish to talk to them about it. And then of course, Flint boarded up and it brought up the most beautiful conversation between the three of us, you know how I said, look, as we all know, we don't have any guarantee of how long anyone will be around. However, do you have the feeling that it will live a long and healthy and happy life? I've always had that feeling. And I sit at it I remember I think it was a congenital brought it up. I can't remember now it doesn't really matter. But it was that whole I always had the feeling that I would live up to 93 and Jim was like 93 Why is that? I said, I don't know maybe just because I always have this thing with the you know, numbers in threes happening all my life, you know, the whole I don't know what it is. It's the three of us now. It's like Rob died on the 12th of June 2018 It's all in threes. My dad passed away on the 12th of the ninth it's everything and he was born on the 15th of the 12 so I've always been followed by number 12 and 1512 and 15 both my dad and Rob were born on a fifteens both my dad and Rob died on a 12 They are so similar they couldn't like they never met but they were so similar. It's ridiculous. So we're having this conversation I said I don't know maybe it's because I have to think of threes but I always felt like 93 and all he had to say was like Do you think you can make it to 100 and I said you know what? I'll try that was my whole I want to live a healthy and happy lives so that I can grow up watching my kids grow up watching my kids become parents and you know all these things. I want to be a grandma I want to meet my grandkids I just you know, this is all this stuff that is So much to live for, I want to do that. And then came the one sentence that, really, I have no words to describe it. And I don't think I need any, I'm just gonna say what it was. And you'll feel it. how impactful that was for me to hear that. And that came from Flynn. And I actually asked his permission to share that in interviews, because I thought it was just so incredible. Flynn looked at me and he said, Mom, I have something I need to say to you. And I don't know how. And I instantly, you know, you just feel a heaviness of it. And I said, What is it, Glenn, you can tell me anything. And I know my heart was pounding, you know, and I'm trying to be as cool as possible and hold space for him. And I'm like, just, you know, what is it? And he said, those words to me, he said, You know, I feel that our lives have sort of gotten better since that past, my heart drops in that instant. And I'm still looking like nodding on the outside looking at him going like what on earth. And he said, and it's not because he passed, it's because of what you made of it. And he was like,

I was so floored. This was the biggest gift that he could have given me. He has no idea how much that meant to me. And I know that I will revisit that conversation at an appropriate time. And I had asked him if we have revisited it, but not, not since, you know, asked him if I was allowed to share this because I felt it meant so much to me. And I think it would also give a lot to people hearing this, what a shift it can have when you do choose happiness in your life. Because that's what it is. Healing is a choice. Happiness is a choice. And I took that choice every single day after Rob died, because that's what we wanted. So hearing that, from my then 11 year old son, it absolutely floored me. It literally it was such a proof for me that I had done the right thing. And as a parent, I don't need to explain to you what that meant for me, you know, I I could have just cried. I just hugged him. And I was like, Thanks, bye. It's just, you know, it was incredible, absolutely incredible gift.

I didn't feel any heaviness through that all I felt was unbelievable joy. Yeah. Yeah. And I understand it was

just the way when he said that, you know, of course, I need to tell you and I was like that heaviness was gone up. And he said that I can promise you.

Yeah. I don't know how all this works. But I know that there is some divine reason for all of these different things that we experience. And what a gift.

Yeah, absolutely. Wow.

And it's, oh, that's taking my breath away. That is magic. And so I don't know if you if you intentionally guide your clients on this. But to me, this is the part that a lot of people get stuck on, is finding that life can be better. Yeah. And you're a living breathing example of that. Because I imagine the first time when your dad passed, that wasn't the case.

No, absolutely not. And when I was more in survival mode, but definitely not in striving, or living or enjoying loving life, you know? Yeah.

And I think I've shared this on on your podcast when I talked about having that moment where, where I was looking at it from a perspective of the of the young fellow that I was managing it at work at the time. Yes, yeah. realisation or maybe Maybe he got everything he needed. And then I remember

and that touched me so deeply. That was my, one of my biggest takeaways, with the interview with you, I, I loved it.

I'm not sure if I mentioned this at the time, but what's coming through now is like, and then trying to rationalise that with my dad's parsing and finding that with the full body experience confirming that it was true, but the logic part of my brain going, how can that possibly be a good thing? How could it possibly be that in a podcast that was beautiful, and like you just sit in it, there's nothing like hearing from the purity of a child to say not because they're gone, but because of how you've dealt with it like that. If there's any message for people to take from this podcast as exactly what Marie is just shaving from, like that innocent pure love response from your son. Like that's bringing so much emotion through there's so much beauty and power and strength. What What an unbelievable gift?

Yes, absolutely. Oh

I'm drawn to asking you about your mum. And I know she's sitting there so I'll let you this whichever way you feel

is there a part of you that took on a bit of the role that your dad played for your mum given you? Oh,

yes, I similar 100% Do you think?

If you think back now, and I know you guys have had moments of of working through this, but if you think back now, do you think they would have been challenging for your mum? Maybe not consciously, maybe consciously, but maybe unconsciously that what you just reminded her so much of your dad?

I honestly don't think so. I think it was more a blessing in that and not saying I was such a blessing just from a mom's perspective myself. Now I think it is a blessing because I see that in Flint. Now Flint saw reminds me of rock. Like physically everything is like it's literally. And the other thing is both my boys have been wearing nothing but ROPs T shirts for the last four years. And that is something that I can't and don't want to change. They're literally falling off them already. They're just so old and baggy now, but I cannot change that because I know how much they need it. And I know that will naturally change over time, but I'm not forcing it. So seeing I almost wanted to say ROTC that's the thing seeing Flynn walk around in Rob's pants in his in his jumpers in his T shirts, and literally filling out that because he's got that she seat as well. Now he's actually three centimetres taller than Rob was. Now he's grown so much he had so many growth spurts. He went from being shorter than me to being taller than brought in the last four years. So that is a blessing for me. It's never a challenge. I think that I can speak for my mom as well, that it would have been a blessing for her as well. So what what I feel happened between my mom and I, it was not so much that I was taking on the role of my dad in our relationship. I feel that my mom and my relationship flipped from being parents daughter, if that makes sense. So she came to me for advice for everything. How do I cook this? How, what should I wait for that? And I'm like, You were the one who taught me all of this, why? Why are you coming to me. But I understand that now she needed attention. She needed help. She needed that nurturing part. And she was seeking that from me because I was closest to her. And she didn't have that from my dad anymore. And I understand that parts. So well know, you know, when we talk about in a preset, and I go, Oh my god, I'm bragging, you know, but all these things have been happening. But at the same time, I'll just I'm just so happy to be able to share with someone who understands it and you're like, No, no, I get it. And because I don't have that in my life anymore, as in, you know, Rob would always be the one put me on a pedestal and go like gold bay that is also you know, and, and that is not there anymore. Because as I said, My boys are not as excited about you know, when a certain TV channel contacts me that I'm not mentioned yet before the article is out and, and things like that, you know, it's just, it's exciting. It's amazing. It's beautiful when these things happen, and they do get excited, but they don't really understand the vastness of it or what that actually means or what impact that has. So in my mom and my case, our relationship flipped between parents daughter, it really flipped, she came to me for every single advice she wanted. And as in the role of my dad, I took that on in the family more so than with with the connection between me and my mom, because he was a peacemaker. He was the glue that held the family together. After my dad died, our family literally fell apart and unfortunately has never really fully recovered. So I'm still to this day, the only person who's got contact to everyone in the family to almost siblings and to my mom. Between the siblings, there's hardly any contact between my siblings and my mom, very, very their contact if, if at all. So it's really fallen apart. It's like this whole dynamic for our family was never healthy. And we tried to pretend our entire life that he was but it wasn't. And the truth always comes out and it has fallen apart. It's sad to say but I have accepted that now I stopped trying to fix something that maybe doesn't want to be fixed or it's not meant to be fixed. I'm not really sure I'm not the one to make a judgement about I've had, I just know that my focus is somewhere else, my focus is on my family and keeping my family happy and, and keeping my relationship with those who are want to have a relationship with and whoever was super good i that that's fine, you know, and everything else I let go off on saying that. Yeah, it took me like four decades of therapy to be able to say and do that. But yeah, I've gotten there in the end.

Yeah, it doesn't mean you don't care. Doesn't mean you don't care doesn't mean you don't want to relationship. Yeah, it just means that you, there's only so much you can do. And again, and one of the great challenges, I think in life, we've all experienced some kind of loss, we all have these different behaviour patterns. Interesting family dynamics. Yeah, ultimately, yeah, comes back to what we talked about before, we need to make peace with ourselves first, or there's no point trying to play that peacekeeping role, which again, I can identify, because, yeah, I did that in so many different areas of my life, my wife's the same, and you do it to your own detriment. And that's, like, if I if I take anything from this chat, it's the space that you've created, to be able to help your children with that, but, but as importantly, maybe more importantly, how open you are to learning from them. And risk receiving guidance from them. Embracing that I get what a gift.

Our children, really our biggest teachers, like, seriously, it's so beautiful, the things that I can learn from them. And I love the relationship I have with them.

So good.

All just waiting for anything else to flow through. But I think we're done. I'm gonna say this, Marie. And I know you will take this right away, you said, you're really big on saying what needs to be said and sharing whatever needs to be said. So I'm going to say this as a completely happily married man, from a purely from a human connection point of view. I love you. I appreciate you on the work that you are doing in this world, because you are truly making a massive difference, not just changing lives, but changing the world. So thank you for coming on here and sharing that. I really appreciate it.

Thank you, thank you so much, and so much love right back to you. I love the beautiful and very respectful preframe that you've given to that those really absolute mutual love here. And I really, really, really admire the work that you do the space that you hold. And I just want to say thank you so much for the space that you held for me today for Yeah, sharing my story in such a different way. I really love the intuition and what you have to give that you have to feel things and to ask the right questions at the right time. Love it. Thank you so much.

You're welcome before we go for those listening, particularly the young widows perhaps where can they find you? Where can they afford to find out more about you and hear more of your journey and hear more about how potentially you can help them.

I think that easiest would be my website. It's Marie alessi.com. So you can see it here for those watching. For those listening. It's Ma Ri e a l e wsi.com. Marie loc.com. That's my first and last name. And from there, you literally got all the links there is the link to my group loving life after loss is the link to my books that I've read, that have written my TEDx talk, the journeys that I offer the healing journeys to the grief programme, the retreats that I run for my next ones coming up in July. I love the work that I do, and everything that I've done, media, you can find everything on my website, and you can even book a chat with me if you want that. So yeah, that would be the best way to start, I guess.

Brilliant. Awesome. Thank you so much, Marie. Appreciate you coming on. And I look forward to connecting with you again soon.

Thank you so much. And

I hope you enjoyed this episode of The Grief Code podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Please share it with a friend or family member that you know would benefit from hearing it too. If you are truly ready to heal your unresolved or unknown grief. Let's chat. Email me at info at Ian Hawkins coaching.com You can also stay connected with me by joining the Grief Code community at Ian Hawkins coaching.com forward slash the grief out and remember so that I can help even more people to heal please subscribe and leave a review on your favourite podcast platform