Making Adventure Part Of Your Everyday with Dan Zehner

Ian Hawkins 0:02

Are you ready, ready to release internal pain to find confidence, clarity and direction for your future, to live a life of meaning, fulfilment and contribution to trust your intuition again, but something's been holding you back. You've come to the right place. Welcome. I'm a Ian Hawkins, the host and founder of The Grief Code podcast. Together, let's heal your unresolved or unknown grief by unlocking your grief code. As you tune into each episode, you will receive insight into your own grief, how to eliminate it and what to do next. Before we start by one request. If any new insights or awareness land with you during this episode, please send me an email at info at the and Hawkins coaching.com. And let me know what you found. I know the power of this work. I love to hear the impact these conversations have. Okay, let's get into it.

All right. Welcome, everyone. And welcome to this week's guess. Old friend of mine, Dan Zehner, how are you doing?

Unknown Speaker 1:15

Good to see you, man. It's been a while.

Ian Hawkins 1:18

You've got the Ozzy vernacular in there as well.

Unknown Speaker 1:20

I'm an accent chameleon.

Ian Hawkins 1:23

Very good. And probably good to give a bit of a background on how we came to know each other. We were just having a bit of a reminisce then. So Dan was one of my very first clients going back. Was it 2015? Or 16? Was it?

Unknown Speaker 1:39

Yeah, I think it was 16. Yeah, it was just crazy making them.

Ian Hawkins 1:44

Yeah. And probably like, from a from a personal perspective, it was you got such awesome results. It was a real great validation for me at a point where I was just finding my way in the coaching world. And even just to hear about some of the things that you've been talking about what's unfolded since then, and how much value you place on that work that we did way back then

Unknown Speaker 2:08

yeah, I still have my original vision board that I made from way back then. And like 70% of it has come to fruition.

Ian Hawkins 2:18

That's awesome. Awesome. Might be time for a new vision board.

Unknown Speaker 2:22

Yes, I actually, I actually was thinking the same thing myself.

Ian Hawkins 2:27

Excellent. Now often I talk to business owners, and it's about talking about their business. And we will do a bit of that the anthem of the adventure that may or may not become a business, but it's more of a lifestyle than anything. So tell us a little bit about anthem of the adventure and how that came to be.

Unknown Speaker 2:45

Yeah, it's currently not making a sense, but I'm okay with that.

Ian Hawkins 2:49

You've got plenty of other things going on. We have other

Unknown Speaker 2:51

things going on that Yeah. Everything else is fundraising for this. How it came to be was essentially, I got really obsessed with my own comfort for a very long time. And I suddenly got tired of it. And it wasn't working for me anymore. And realised through a really helpful book, wild heart by John Eldridge, like, I need to adventure in my life. And so to all of us, and there's a lot more guys like me, who are at some point in their career going, who trapped me in this beige cubicle. Oh, I did. And so it came out of that and then a conversation with with John, like, what the heck do I do with this? And he's like, Well, you should talk to God about that. And like how, and had how to buy, funnily enough, like, grew up in the church been a Christian since I was a kid. First like two way conversation with God and heard like, you know, really clearly and that like a vow shalt do this kind of thing. But it's in the unique way he talks to me of kind of these Inklings and and promptings you should start a podcast and you should invite these people to be on it. And I said, Okay. And I suddenly had a podcast about adventure. And explored through all the guests and writing a blog and working on book is just this idea of like, what is important about adventure? Why is it necessary our lives and then me being an engineer, an engineer by training, kind of how do we pull it apart? How do we how do we design an environment where we are prone to adventure, rather than making adventure a really hard thing.

Ian Hawkins 4:48

Love it. And you've not just about taking people on adventures, but you've actually made adventure part of your life, right? Like you take the kids on adventure. Oh yeah, you hope Family. So I'd love to hear. Well, we probably crossed both those bridges. But I want to hear more about how you've become like the adventurer yourself and maybe some of the cool, cool experiences you've had as a result. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 5:15

the biggest thing was started with the work that we did together and then compounded itself. With some other coaching work I did, with my good friend and guy that I work for now there. Yeah, she's a retired Navy SEAL. But around this idea of, we all have choice, we all have agency in our lives. And we can either choose to the heart of suffering wherever we're at, and being stuck in the beige game will go the rest of our lives. Or we can choose the hard of setting a different idea for how we want our future to go of how we want it to feel to look what's there, what isn't there, who's there, who isn't there, and then doing the training and building the team necessary to produce that, which is what I've been doing the past six years. And it started with simple things like just adding a day on to a work trip to go skiing, instead of just staying in a hotel next to a university that was going to an Oregon, I stayed at an AirBNB in the mountains and men, an amazing lady who had a house full of beautiful furniture. And we talked about my love of woodworking, and then I went skiing on Mount Hood and listened to the audiobook of Wildheart on the way, like nothing crazy. It didn't cost me hardly anything extra than it would have. Had I just done the normal thing. But it's always taking that creative step to say, well, what can we add? What can we change here to just make it more spicy, make it more flavorful.

Ian Hawkins 6:46

That's brilliant. And, and particularly for that person sitting in the beige office, which which, true across the states, I'm sure, definitely true in Australia was definitely true for me, looking for something else. It's not about completely blowing your life up. And starting again, it's what can you bring into the day to day now. So I love that.

Unknown Speaker 7:06

Yeah, and the world will tell you, Oh, just hustle and grind and start your side hustle and build your kingdom and all these things. And I'm here to say that that may work for you. But it's gonna catch up for you eventually, if you do that in your own strength. And if your character isn't there to handle it, you're going to detonate your life. And I didn't want to do that. Partially, originally, it was frankly out of fear. But now, now it's more out of choice that I really do need to build my character and be more of the person who can handle an adventurous life who can handle a business henselae of Anthem, and the adventure doesn't make anything. Because I'm building the team. Slowly, I'm still refining the message, I'm still refining what we offer to people so that when we're ready for people to start giving us money, that we actually worth it to them. And it doesn't scale so fast that my my way of being causes harm to those under my care.

Ian Hawkins 8:10

I love that. And anyone who's started any project, like business or something like this, that you're created, knows that it can it can be a massive disruptive to life. And most people go oh, I'll get it all set up. And then I'll worry about bringing back the balance. But what you described there that that's where it needs to be like how you do one things, how you do everything. So I love I love how you're doing that. And also incorporating those messages and guidance from God rather than it being ego based and trying 100 miles an hour like you said that, that we're bombarded with hustle, grind, push Arlo, hard work hours, all this sort of stuff. No, no, there is you can do it in a way that's more gentle and flowing and ease. And there's so much more joy in that right. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 9:01

and I'm not there yet. I don't want anybody to get to get the message of oh, he's got it all figured out. Like, I'm still the kind of guy who's prone to the squirrel or shiny object syndrome moments. But I'm coming to recognise those a bit quicker now and kind of pull myself back from jumping off a cliff without a parachute. Yeah, there's a really good, good friend of mine who I really enjoy his work. Morgan Schneider, and he talks about committing yourself to a decade of excavating your heart to build a foundation for something new. He quotes somebody else in his book becoming a king and I can't remember who he quotes here, but he talks about how a 30 year old man's heart is like a densely populated city and you have to knock something down before you build something else in its place. So I'll be turning 35 On Friday, some halfway through the decade of my 30s and have definitely found that to be true of wow, I've got a lot of excavating, left to do and a lot of foundational work to do before. I feel like it's appropriate to build a skyscraper on top of it.

Yeah, I'd love to come back to that. Because I think that that's going to be something that's hugely value for people to listen to. And even if you've gone through the 30s, and you haven't done that, excavating, it's never too late to start. And poor. Yeah, I definitely want to come back to that. So you mentioned before working with Larry, and I've had the privilege of being taken through a session, my wife and I were talking through a session with Larry and Ann. And we still have that statement that we got from that session. And it's, I'm getting tingles through this of like, how that vision that he helped us create is coming to fruition. So tell me how you go from? Well, actually, well might be jumping the gun here. I want to hear more about exactly what you're doing now. So you have your day job. And you're you're slowly transitioning, as they allow you to bring in more of this. So you're doing coaching with me. So tell us a little bit about operate more curious about the coaching than anything? Yeah, yeah, your day to day and plus that work that you do with Larry. Yeah, so

the mix of Larry and everything else. I'm looking at a picture of another friend of mine who's in he started a company called go rock. This was kind of my reintroduction into adventure and kind of awakened to all this thing, as well as my obsession with special forces. So his name is Jason McCarthy. He's a retired Ranger. And he has a company built around rucksacks, and we call it rucking. So carrying a weighted weighted rucksack and other awkward heavy objects for miles and miles. And what I've really come to appreciate about the world of rucking is building relationships through doing hard things together and being weird. And the more that I've embraced kind of that ethos, the more interesting and fun life gets and people leave me weird looks like are you carrying a sandbag? Around our neighbourhood? Like, yeah, how much is in that thing? 120 pounds. What's I love those kinds of conversations, because it gives me a chance to talk about one of the things that I teach with Larry, we talked about the importance of self regulation of how our neuro chemistry how we've been created is, we have one bank that we draw from when we need to regulate ourselves mentally to focus on a task, physically when we're in a harsh environment or pushing ourselves or emotionally, when we need to not yell at our kids when they're trying to kill their siblings. And so, and that is actually the fourth pillar out of the six that I teach with Larry. And I love talking about my friend Jason and his company, because they really embody that self regulation pillar and its effect on people. He's built a tribe of 1000s around that idea, and actually the City of Jacksonville, Florida is recognised him as a leader in that space. And he just got back, I think yesterday from a meeting with the mayor, him and his wife there, anyway, is really cool. So rucking has been a big part of getting into this adventurous lifestyle. And it's taken me everywhere from down the street around my block and getting weird looks all the way to the beaches of Normandy in France on the 75th anniversary of D Day and doing a go ruck challenge on Omaha Beach.

Yeah, two things come to mind. One is, I don't know if it was when we were actually doing the coaching or a phone call or a video call that we had after the fact. But I remember you saying you were in your office. And you were saying I have the rakia. And during my work day, I put it on and I might do some push ups or squats or whatever. But again, it's bringing that that transitioning into more of that adventure and holistic within the parameters that you already had. Oh, yeah,

yeah, I, I put something together and I can't remember Photoshop or something. But like six pictures that represented a different exercise. And I printed out stuck it on my wall. And every time I went to or from my desk, I had to pick something off of it and do it and check it off. Brilliant, like super easy. But doing that for six for six months, I lost 50 pounds.

Yeah, amazing. Amazing. And the other thing that came into mind was you shot a video of that. That trip to Normandy, and you're coming from the water to the beach. He don't get tingles, because I remember. I remember watching it back and, and again, for anyone, for anyone listening and we'll and we'll get, we'll get to how what Dan's had to come through to get to this other side. But you don't have to start a business. You don't have to go changing the world to bring in these just blissful, divine moments where not only at the time is it like, wow, this is stunning, but then that has an influence on other people by you sharing that story. And so tell us about that. Because that I remembered like you were like, a kid at Christmas, when you were telling me about that trip? Like just how excited you were.

That so that was a year long, actually, really five years, we'll we'll cut it down to the last year of the journey. So it started with a Facebook post. So Jason posted on the go rock page, hey, we're doing an event or series of events in Normandy, you all should cut? And I was like, No, and I like looked at him in the comment section. Yeah, I'll bring my wife and three kids will make sandcastles on the beach. And he was like, I'll see you there. I'm bringing my kids to like, Oh, crap. We started I actually saved the some screenshots of the our conversation. It was hilarious. And then couple months go by and I ended up talking to his wife about it. And Lee and I was like, Emily, I talked to Tracy about this, like, I think we should do it. But she's seven months pregnant. Like, this is insane. This is like absolutely insane. And, and so she kind of coached me through how to how to have that conversation. And we waited until Felicity was born. But we're in the hospital. Tracy isn't labour, Jason sends me a message is Hey, now it's time to use your go wreck training. Don't fall asleep on her drink your coffee outside rubber feet, bring her ice chips. You got this? Awesome. Like that moment of just one dad to another, you know, coming together say, Hey, you got this man. Like this point we'd never met in person. never even talked to outside for a couple of random exchanges on Facebook. And this guy cared enough about me as a dude, to just send me send me a quick text. It was awesome. I was like, Okay, I'm going to France. So talk to Tracy A couple months later originally, she was like, Huh, what do you mean go to France with all of our crazy kids. Later, we decided we're going to leave the older to my parents bring the baby along because she was fairly easy. And the McCarthys wisely decided to leave all their kids at home. And we ended up going to France for nine days. It was amazing. We stayed in an Airbnb in this Lady's garden in the countryside of Normandy. And I remember so many things about that. I'm gonna get to the beach next. But one of the things that really hit me actually, and I've never been moved like this before, by art, but we're standing in the room that houses Monet's water lilies. I don't know if you're if, as listeners if you're familiar with this, but Google it. It's two oval shaped rooms. And the entire wall is a painting, actually series of paintings that just looks like one. And I walked in and I wept it Wow. Just just overwhelmed by the beauty. And then contrast that with a couple days later. 530 in the morning, the sun is just creeping over the North Sea there. And hearing a retired Army Ranger talk about the events of the D Day landings and all of the horror and fear and bloodshed that went and it's just really stark is a peaceful pastoral scene that we're in 75 years later, because of the sacrifices that those men made was just incredible. And then we got in the water at sunrise, and charged onto the beach to the sound of bagpipes playing and it was incredible.

Awesome. So good.

It was incredible.

And to then, like what a gift to be able to help other men who, as you said desperately in need of that.

And now so we're in a bit of a hilarious story. So brought him in to work with our team at Purdue University where I still have a day job because they pay for my insurance. And we're working with him got an opportunity where I was able to train as a coach with him. And then I've been coaching with his team ever since and growing and my ability to coach others. And now I work with, with CEOs and their teams, to bring them through what we call the six pillars of success. So redefining success as not achieve achieve achieve doo doo doo. But an optimised daily experience that's sustainable over time. Beautiful, and producing those feelings for yourself for your team and those that you serve. That is the purpose of your business, your business can't be successful in it. Because it's not a person, only people can feel success. So that's the first thing we talked about, then, to do that, you need to build an effective team, to be able to Team effectively, you need to be able to influence your own behaviour and the behaviour of others talked about that. And then we get to the self regulation piece, which I mentioned earlier. Because to be able to influence your behaviour, you need to be able to self regulate. And then we talked about leadership, like after we've worked on ourselves, only then are we able to lead others. And then when we're leading others, then we need to be able to plan effectively. So that's our, our system that we teach. And I've been doing that for five years now, which is crazy. And through all that my wife was a music teacher, she's got a master's degree in music from a couple of prestigious schools and, and was an underappreciated elementary music teacher, and COVID hits. And we had a decision to make when her school district was making plans for how to come back in person that were, in our estimation unsafe. And she had seen me trying to build a business and a podcast and, you know, change my career to a certain extent towards coaching and teaching and adventure and all these things. And it gave her the confidence to to ask, What if I resigned? Say, how can I support you? You know, is that gonna help you achieve? Not cheat, not achieve, but produce your desired end state? And we talked about? Better? She's like, Yeah, I think so. Okay, let's do it. We'll figure it out. Together. We prayed over it. And both of us heard really clearly, she should start doing private music lessons. And we should not do any marketing, we get one Facebook post and one email. And we'll always have enough. And we had for a year and a half. She taught private music lessons. And we always had just enough students never an abundance, never to shoe, always just enough to cover exactly the difference in what she was making as a teacher minus childcare because she was taken home to stay at home taking care of kids always had enough. And good. And a few months into that. She's like, Hey, I think I'd like to go back to school and get my PhD. It's like, Great in what music education? She's like, No, actually, Human Development and Family Studies. Okay, hard left her. Cool. How can I support you? I guess just make sure I have time at night to do my application. Okay, great. Yeah. You know, prayed over, it's like, oh, yeah, absolutely. That's what fills her up is helping teachers be more effective and serve their kids better, especially in developing their ability to have learn socially and learn emotionally, and through music. And so she's now a PhD student at Purdue. Brilliant. She's she's just finished her first year of graduate school. Well, again, I mean, she's got a master's degree, but and absolutely crushing it, like doing statistics for the first time ever. Kill it. And I'll let you ask the question before I give the big turning point here.

Well, yeah, and that's what I want to ask because for anyone listening and not full body, like goosebumps now, as we talk about this, for anyone thinking, Well, how do you get to that sort of composure with your wife and so you can't

years of work? Yeah, little things.

100% You can't come to the place that you've got yourself now, where you you're getting all these different opportunities where you're made so many different positive changes to your life and your relationship with God and with your wife without having to go through some challenging times. So yeah, so what was that moment in your adult life? If that just changed everything were Yeah,

yeah, it was. Very shortly after our second child, Jane was born to just turn six this last week, which is mind boggling to me. Right after she was born, I was way heavier than I would have liked. Like to be. It wasn't showing up. Well, for Tracy, I was dissatisfied with my career, my physical abilities were not where I liked him to be, and just generally didn't feel great about myself and I was tired. I was sick and tired of feeling sick and tired. Yeah, and, and prioritising my own comfort at the expense of my soul. Yeah. And so I reached out for help, I checked my ego and, and put a post on a dad's group, the dad edge, which is still going and I'm part of the coaching team on for now. So hey, guys, I need some help going through some stuff. I'm doing things to to myself that I don't like. I'm in addictive behaviours that are not serving me or my family. Well, and I'm, I'm done with it. I've done everything I could think to do at this point. I need help.

And can I add that? Because I know you said what you're saying that your end is a little bit challenging, because you may have young years in the background. So I'll start with because, yeah, because I know that part of the story, right? And so you said, you know, you're at that point where you're, you're going back into some of the addictions, the usual stuff, videogames are creating this isolation, but you said, Actually, one of the big ones was was porn. And one of the turning points was actually, like, when your wife Tracy actually found your searches history and how that was like, yeah, that just had such a massive impact on on you, but also your relationship, right?

Yeah, yeah, it was, it was huge. And really a big wake up call, man, I, I can't keep living for myself anymore, you know, married for a few years after then, but really not. Not prioritising the restoration of my own heart. And and what I needed to get right between me and God, and not just in isolation with myself in him, but in a community of support, because that's how it's meant to be. And I had misplaced a lot of my focus to give Tracy the ability to validate or invalidate me as a man. Yeah, and all sorts of things.

Want to, I want to come back to what you just said there, that invalidation because it's an important part of your journey. But I just want to tap more into that moment, like, like your heart mustard has sunk rod

just turned to dust

yet? And then what are the sort of feelings that come up? Like? guilt, shame, or all of all of the usual things that we go through? Right?

Yeah, all of that real, real hard? How can I do this? How can I continue to do this? Why am I not good enough to be able to stop this on my own?

Yeah, and again, all really normal conversations for all for all people, specifically men when it when we talking specifically about addictions to things like porn. Yeah, it's, it's those questions that that we all ask ourselves from time is like, I should be able to do this, why can I do this? Why do I keep repeating these patterns. And I know, this is something that you've learned and learned and know that for the listeners, it's like, just to reiterate what I say a lot. It's not your fault that these patterns are here. It's not your fault that there are certain things that are, it feels like they're controlling your behaviour, because they are liking these moments from our from our youth, that for like, right back to a young age where we just dealt with things the best we could with our young brain. And then when we get into the lie in a lady's life, the patterns repeat and then we start beating ourselves up as if it's our somehow our fault and a slob we need we need to just give ourselves a leaf pass on that one and realise that yes, we can take responsibility to change. But there's just no value in beating ourselves up through this angry.

Yeah. A lot of what I've learned in a journey with a good therapist and a spiritual director and good coaches is what, what seems to me to be kind of normal growing up was Trump and I grew up, don't get me wrong, I've had a very privileged childhood, you know, grew up in white middle class Midwest. And that's part of like, why it's so hard for me to identify trauma in my life is like, objectively hasn't been much. And I still need to acknowledge the times where I've been wounded because it happened and it mattered to me, and I can't compare my story to someone else's, like, Yes, I didn't grow up in a war zone, and I wasn't abused or raped or anything. And I'm not discounting anybody that has had that happen to them. That's awful, and it shouldn't have happened. But the things that happened happened to me and they mattered, one of the biggest ones was we moved when I was at a very formative age, and I was 12 years old, moved to the middle of the school year from our home in Minnesota, to Illinois. And for those who aren't in the, in the, in the US, that's the nearest makes no difference with 1000s of miles. This big shift, huge cultural shift, and a big time in my life, where I was finally making really solid, rooted friendships and just just gone. And this was before FaceTime, and Skype and all that and you know, those those friendships didn't last. And at the time, it felt like my life was over. And I changed my entire identity to protect myself, so that I would be liked and accepted. I prioritised relationships with girls instead of guys. Because they were safer, and accepted me for who I was, instead of having to feel like I had to pretend. I've always still did. And then as we mentioned, a bit of discovering, self medicating, self soothing behaviours that helped me feel good at the time, but ultimately created a cycle of self sabotage, continued into adulthood.

Yeah, and what you said there? I think not, I think I know it's really important for us to, just to touch on a bit a little bit stronger way is that whatever you've been through, it may not be as bad as what you go out there. And you look and you see, and we're presented with enough of that in the news on a day to day basis, and we hear it from stories from friends, and so on. But every time you say, well, there are other people that have got it worse off than me, we're actually doing ourselves a disservice. We're devaluing your own journey. And what you see out there, what you went through matters. And it matters because of what you talked about there. The excavation, excavation of your heart, if that's not dealt with, if you don't acknowledge that, that was something that caused you trauma caused you pain, it's caused patterns of behaviour that aren't healthy, well, then you can't feel better, you can't get better. You cannot make changes, you can't heal, and be able to go and be the best husband, father, friend, leader, all of those things that you want to be right.

Yeah. A lot. A lot of what I've been excavating lately, and this is this is really recent, is with the help of really gifted friends and caring allies, praying into those moments, like, Where was Jesus that first time that I decided to self soothe in that way? What was he doing? What was he saying? And I'm getting choked up just saying, and the first time I asked that, I saw him standing there and not in judgement, but a saint, buddy. I'm right here. Yeah, I wish you would choose me. I can understand why you don't. I'll be here when you when you want me.

And imagine if we could imagine if we could judge ourselves the same way with action zero judgement.

Yeah. Exactly. So that's, that's a lot of the journey that I've been on on lately is not shying away from those emotions when they come up or from that behaviour when it comes up again, because it still does occasionally go. What's going on here? Like what am I trying to soothe here? Because by Her life is changing right now. It's getting over the trauma we've been through as a global society in the past two and a half years. Yeah, and all the things. And I'm trying to rush it. I'm trying to rush to getting back to feeling good.

Say, Good, Dan. And I'm just loving the certainty and the certainty in the path, the journey so far, the self awareness, you know, you're not perfect, you know, there are certain things that still need to be resolved. And you're honouring that. And you're giving yourself that space. And I think as, as humans. And again, from, from my perspective, particularly for men and the different challenges that we have, it's so important to give ourselves that space.

Yeah. And we were so hard on ourselves, and just I got to perform, I got to do I'm going to achieve, and sometimes you just need to be, and that sounds kind of woowoo squishy, but like, what that really means is, sometimes you need to turn your damn phone off, and go and sit in the tree for a little while. Yeah. Or go sit next to a stream and just listen to it. And feel some things. Or go lie in a hammock in the sun for an afternoon. And let your email sit for a little while because it'll be there when you get back. But yeah, tending to your heart in those ways are really important.

Yeah. If you can't get into nature, just taking a moment, wherever you are, like there's always an opportunity, find fresh air or sunshine. And it's, or listen to

some good music that you once loved as a kid, like, I love Dave Matthews Band. And one of the songs that will continually move me to tears is the song that I played, in my naivety for my wife on our first date, thinking, Hey, she loves piano, I know what she'll like to listen to a dance with me a 20 minute long song with a five minute piano solo in the middle. Brilliant. But it works. She just she didn't run away. But like listening to that song again, and just and just letting it sink in. And think of all the moments that I've listened to that song over the years and where my heart was and what it needed and what it still needs. It's just so nice.

So good. I really want to emphasise something there. And it's a lot of people can have a fear around sitting in that space that you talked about to feel. Yeah,

that's a true adventure there. Like, don't get me wrong. I love rucking and mountain biking and blowing things up and driving over things in my Landrover. Absolutely, yeah, 100% I love making bacon and eating it in any setting. And I find the most fulfilling adventures long term or the emotional ones.

The thing, I love how you describe that, because that's so cool. Living the dream, and particularly the blowing things up. We all want to do that. Oh, yeah. It's people have a fear that if they give themselves that space, they know there's some stuff there that they worry about what they might find. Yeah, and and what I want to show and particularly through Dan's story is that 99.99999% of that stuff? Is things like your parents moving at a young age. It's things like an experience you had at middle school or, or, you know, something where there was some moment which is not much it's for moments when we're really small children when our parents had an experience that we observed, which was stressful for them around something that wasn't really that stressful in the big scheme of their lives. But we we took it and created some sort of trauma that's that's influenced our decision making adult years

and even the bigger ones like the really objectively capital T trauma. Yeah, healing is available. If we look for it.

100% And, and it doesn't mean you have to go wading back through the mud of at all, there are so many different ways and I know you've experienced a heap of them. I know I have as well. But there are ways that you can do that in a much more pleasant experience

is a great example. So me getting to co create with the healer will say because I'm only taking responsibility for just taking action, not the actual healing itself here. So I'm down in New Orleans for a conference. And I found this amazing restaurants. There's a Vietnamese French fusion place, it's so cool. And I found it completely by just following these little spirit nudges, like the place I wanted to go for dinner was closed. I was like, Okay, we're gonna go for dinner God, like, walk this way for a little while. We go by a pile, but we're gonna hear that keep going. Chinese place now Japanese place now, another Chinese place. Now keep going. And see these orange lights in the distance like these flickering gas lanterns. He's like, going on there. Okay, and come across this little bistro next to a hotel and it's playing this really nice music and it's just beautiful. It's Listen, the Elizabeth Street Cafe. Like, that's the spot. Okay, Vietnamese noodles, and bakery, like, interesting. So I walk in, and just amazing smells, croissants and spices and all the things and there's white subway tile, it's really clean. And the guy behind the counter is a tall black guy who's got a black T shirt, skinny jeans, and a navy blue silk shawl with flowers and a fringe on it. He's got like a bunch of rings, and he is floating around the room. Like what in the world to have, like you just stepped into. So he sits me down and I bring up my notebook into my pen and I'm writing working on my book. And he's like, Hey, y'all writer, like, I never said this to anyone before. I was like, yeah, actually working on my first book, and told him what it was about and, you know, adventure and persevering through hard things and, and basically getting to breakfast at the end, like getting to the sustenance that we need to sustain us through through the rest of the adventurous life that we want with God. And he's like, Whoa, I want some of that. Like, really, I mean, to this point, I thought, everything I was writing for was for white dudes like me, and you know, guys who dwell in a cubicle, but this guy could not be more different from me. And I was like, wow, there's something here, guys, like, yeah, there's something here. Okay. And so finish my meal. It was amazing. I mean, I call it last meal. Good. Like, if I had died that night, I would have died a happy man. That good. That's good. So this guy gets a few minutes or like, he's like, Hey, can I show you around the hotel, a calf salutely. So he shows me around this historic hotel, and then and then we're talking a while. And then he tells a bit of his story. And it's capital T trauma. Wow. And I'm just listening to him. And I'm like, This may sound weird, but can I pray for you? And he's like, Oh, I'd love that. And I just pray for him. Like where he was about, you know, the warfare he was dealing with and the affliction that he felt just not feeling like he could be himself and not feeling like he could choose God in these moments and not feeling like he could get out from under the choices that he'd been making. And these agreements that he'd made about himself and who he was and, and it didn't take long, just a few minutes. And he could see just the lift of His Spirit. And I thought that was it. I was like, that was pretty cool. I came back like five more times that week, because it was so good, that their almond croissants for breakfast are insane. And I saw him one morning and he's like, You will never guess what happened to me. Trying. It's like, after you pray for me, I got home. And demons attacked me. Like, I saw them. And they're like, spirits of witches coming out of my walls. I'm like, okay, yep, I don't believe it. But I know what's true. And like, Man, this is wild and like, you know what happened? You suddenly became dangerous. Like, wow, so we made a choice to align with somebody who all those His people really don't like you aligning with. He's like, Oh, I guess you're right.

That's it. Like, he wasn't like, miraculously 180 degree healed, but it was, it was a good shift. And just being able to see the trajectory of his of his life turned at noticeable amount through just a short conversation and just listening and, and being open to whatever the spirit was wanting to do through me that night.

Yeah, and from his perspective to, like, he was heard.

Yeah, yeah, and his perspective to like, have the courage to connect with a guy you never knew. And it looks a little weird, and some white bearded dudes sitting at your table and, and having the vulnerability and the courage to share what's going on in your life. It's really tough stuff. That takes a lot. And it's available for anyone

100%. And not a lot of us do that. Take any? Yeah, when

when you feel that there's, there's somebody sitting across from you, or there's the grocery store checkout line at home, Mark, that is trustworthy, and is going to handle your story? Well, having the courage to share it with them, can be really healing

100%. And, sorry, I thought you'd done it, there was a slight drop out there. So I thought you'd finished. But I was going to add that a lot of my listeners are the sort of people who have that trusting energy. And they are on the receiving end of suddenly, people opening up about their life story, a client of mine at the moment who shared when she went to the dentist, I think it was. And suddenly, she's the patient at the dentist and the dentist is just opening up about her life story. And we just talked through how the energy that she comes with his trust. And that energy that you bought is trust. And if we go back to what we talked about, at the very start, you don't have to have this plan to have a business or this massive impact, to not only change lives, but you think give every life that that person is going to touch now, because you showed up in your fullest and allowed him space to talk and then connect him to God. And if you're not that way inclined to speak through that language to a higher power to spirit to source to, to universal energies to love, well, then, that's how all of us can go out there and make a massive positive difference in the world

that comes back to this tangent that we left hanging while back of what's going on now. And so we're talking about how my becoming more of my true self created helped create an environment and some space for Tracy to step into that for herself. And so I'm sitting in a appointment with my spiritual director and saying how nice it was that Tracy is in her PhD programme just gonna be at this for five to seven years. We're gonna be here for a while. It's great. Get a text from Tracy, I was about to shut my phone off, says hey, do you wanna move to Oregon? Like sometimes she'll joke and like, send me houses that she's looking at just for fun. And I'm like, I'm thinking it's a joke. So I shut my phone off. Turn it on after the appointment. She's like, No, it's not a joke. Like, oh, really her PhD advisor, and funnily enough, was trying to leverage applying for a job at the University of Oregon Eugene to get a higher salary at Purdue, and ended up taking the job. Brilliant. Because they are I mean, it's a super rare thing. She's getting a grant to start a new research lab school of education in Oregon, which is one of the best education schools in the country. And along with that comes the ability to bring graduate students and she wants to bring Tracy along with her because she's killing it. And so Tracy is like, Hey, you want to do this? I'm like, Are you kidding me? Of course I want to like you serious Oregon, like I can go mountain biking on Monday. whitewater rafting on Tuesday, fly fishing on Thursday snowboarding on Friday. Yeah, go to the coast on Saturday and wrap it up with cooking forage mushrooms from our backyard on Sunday. Yes. And like that doesn't even cover the game. bit of adventures available out there. Yeah. And it was such a redemptive moment from my story of moving as a kid to, were able to choose to move our family for something really, really good, rather than away from something or towards protecting something in desperation, and Tracy was able to have the courage to invite me into this adventure, because she felt safe enough to know that I would take care of what I needed to take care of, and allow her to take care of what she needed to take care of. Allow, enable. She's a grown woman, she's awesome. I'm not allowing her to do anything. And we're a good team. And just that she could feel safe and secure in being able to take a leap and have adventure knowing that I'm not gonna let her hang herself. That is one thing. I won't let her do. Right. Yeah, so I know. We talked through it, prayed about it, we sought counsel from people we trust, and, and got to a point where we were about 51%. Sure, we should do it. That was all we got. And it's like, okay, that's all we need. From a few friends are like, that's all you're gonna get, dude. One really helpful category that a mentor of mine told me is like, God's will is not so much a map. But I match. Just a little source of heat.

Brilliant, just follow the heat. Yeah.

And we're not promised that we're going to get the entire plan laid out, we were only promised the next place to stick our foot.

Yeah, which she so beautifully explained. In your little trip to find somewhere to eat? Yes, that you just kept following the little sparks. And this is something I wanted to talk about is that your faith in God, and your trust, that it's going to work out how it needs to work out? Again, for those not so religiously minded, like, call it the universe or higher power, but have faith in something bigger than yourself. has allowed all these moments of synchronicity. Yeah. And all of these opportunities, which as it turned out, aligned to what you want more of in your life anyway.

Yeah. And start with moving to Oregon. Night, it started with, hey, maybe you should add a day to that work trip, go skiing. That's actually a really good idea.

Well, even before that, even before that, it started from going through a moment of grief. Yeah. And then deciding you want to change and, and so this is like, one of the things I love celebrating with my guess is, it's the gift from that grief, of like, okay, I want my life to be better. And it's not about trying to get it all done at once but as you've just so perfectly described is that each step needs leads to the next leads to the next. And, and like that must just give you so much joy to know that the more you deepen your faith and you deepen your trust, not just in God but in yourself. Like, how many of these opportunities just keep presenting to you? Yeah, and it's

it's crazy how like, I don't know it until, until it culminates in something it's like, oh, this is the last six years of my life towards Yeah, I'll go back to the references my my buddy Morgan Schneider. Again, something that he says it's so brilliant. Do in the daily measure in the decade. Love it and be able to look back at 25 year old me man, I'm getting chills now just thinking about that. 25 to 35. Wow, all of those little micro decisions, all those little daily missteps and bright steps, everything led to I've got an environment, a community, a family that wants to that supports me in being adventurous with God on a regular basis. Brilliant. I want to just relieve so much of the pressure to like, as as dads to like you look at it like I remember last summer so my son's eight. He's not quite 10 yet. But thinking back to a couple years before he was born, leading into that decade. We were at one of our favourite things to do every year. There's a convention called Gen Con. It's the world's largest tabletop board game convention. and it's held in Indianapolis every year. And we were at a booth for our, our favourite game BattleTech, big stompy robots and blowing things up. All that kind of thing. And we were looking at this array of miniatures on the table, and he was able to say, Oh, that's a, that's a dragon. And that's a timber wolf. And that's a whatever. And there's this guy looking at us from across the table, like, how will the see? He's eight. How long have you been playing this game? Three years, we've been playing together since he was five. Are you kidding? Like, he's like, I can tell the bond that you guys have was father and son, and especially through this game, he can't pick out any unit on the table. I'll buy it for you. Well, he walked out of that booth with $40 with a free miniatures because the the connection we had as father and son and just seeing him light up being next to his dad doing something that we both love together.

On now I'm getting the tingles. I imagine that would have given you so much joy taking you to write.

It was amazing. Yeah, I almost cried in the middle of a bunch of dudes. Yeah. Yeah. It was incredible. And, you know, throughout this winter weeks leading up to that, as as we all do, I've been feeling like a pretty crap dad for a number of reasons, yelled at my kids or whatever. But it reminded me in that moment, like, oh, yeah, don't pass judgement on yourself until you look at yourself from a decade ago. And even then, think about it.

Yep. Doesn't mean you get it right now, but it means that while you keep going on that journey of improvement, then you look back at that decade. I love that. It's like, you know, the was it proverb, Proverbs, Proverbs, sorry. When's the best time to plant a tree 20 years ago, when's the second best time today. But you'll never be able to look back at that decade, through a period of 10 years of growth until you start something and wanted to come back to that thing around validation with your you talked about external validation. And if we link that back, you said, Well, when you when you have to go through that moment of grief in your younger years, where you moved, you not only got validation, but you got support and safety, from hanging out with the girls. Yeah. And then you said, but the problem there was then when you got to college, and then you were still seeking validation, you go through a breakup? And then and then how that played out, like all through a repeat of patterns into, into that went all the way into your marriage. So can you talk a little bit about that? How that, how you able to identify that and what you were able to do about it? Because to me, this is the key part of how you're able to have this relationship with Tracy now is because be having that self awareness around it. And then being able to actually take the steps to do something about it.

Yeah, it's getting away from her having the ultimate report card. Like she absolutely has permission to give me feedback. But I also have the agency to say, I'm not going to take that. Yeah. And let's say yes, I appreciate and absolutely validate your point of view. You're totally right, in your perspective. And I'm secure in my identity as a son of God. And nothing you say or do you can change that. Now? Absolutely. I want to change my behaviour to be a better husband. Absolutely. I want to change my behaviour to be more pleasant to be around. No question. But it doesn't invalidate me as a man when my wife's having a bad day.

Well, that's good.

And, and that can come through years of, of consistent work and guys holding me accountable to it of like, Dude, you're given her a little bit too much influence over over your heart condition. Right. That's not you.

To me, the word that comes to mind is control. Yeah, exactly. We grew up in at a time where and it seems to be pretty common across most Western countries, particularly Anglo English speaking Western countries is very similar patterns, lots of really strong control and how we were parented and then trying to break those patterns. That's the tough gig, because it's just so hard wired. Right. And oh, yeah. What you're talking about there is the being able to go through this journey is allowing you to come back to self control, rather than having to control

Yeah, and also, yeah, I did have very, very controlling parents. You Loving, but controlling. And part of that I think stunted my ability to self regulate. Being able to actually say, Yeah, I am not going to do that. Or no, I'm not, I'm not going to commit to that. Sorry, I need to go to I need to go to sleep now. Or, No, I'm not going to commit to that other project. No, I'm not going to do overtime, just because you said so No, boss, sorry, I'm not going to do this thing for you just because you asked me to. Because the more I say no, or or maybe no and, right, especially if someone's paying me to do it like, yeah, no. And this is what make it would make it Yes. Right. It's not about being stubborn and obstinate. But it's about being more centred in who I am. And what what makes me tick, and what helps me be the best me that I was created to be, you know, like, one thing I'm finding is I'm not actually a very good detail person. I can be detail oriented, but it takes a whole lot of energy. So if you needed me to be detail oriented, you better only give me one thing to do in a day, and I need a nap afterwards. Like getting getting through it with loud music, and caffeine, just ain't gonna do it for me. Or at least not sustainably. So anyway, things like that, of that, that I'm been learning and bring it back down back to relationship of, you know,

so what we'll be talking about, then?

Oh, validation and like, Miss how that Miss was misplaced? And how have you been able to not take so much of my validation from Tracy? But but get it from truer source?

You were talking about? You talking about? The work environment? Or you're talking about work and being able to say no? No, but And

yeah, so that kind of gets so so being able to say no, and to something, you know, the work sense of like, I'm always able to say absolutely no, and be obstinate about things. But it's more putting you're putting up boundaries. And not in a way that say that's putting up boundaries is a kind thing to do. This is what I've been working on for the past couple years here. Yeah, putting up boundaries is actually a kindness to those around you. Because it really shows them where you start and end. So helps you to be able to coordinate. So just being all nebulous and amorphous.

Brilliant. So just getting back on track, you've seen we've dropped out now we're going to have to, hopefully, that when you're listening and watching this, you haven't noticed that because we've edited out

some water though, so that was good.

So we're getting towards the end now. Dan, and what I'm drawn to is that you you have this platform that you now have, you've got the podcast, and you're writing a book. You've also helped other men through different things from your community, from your church. If there's anyone listening, where can they reach out to you because they want to find out how to bring more adventure into their life? To find out more about anything that you've talked about? Where can they what's the best way for them to reach you so that they can I know, you'll be someone who who loves connecting with new people, you're someone who loves connecting people with other people who you think will be good for them as well. So where can people reach you to do that?

Yeah, thanks again. So Anthem of the adventurer.com is the website and then at Anthem of the adventure on Instagram, pretty easy to reach there. Feel free to private message me comment on my posts, I'd love it when, even if, and especially if there's something you don't agree with. Because I love to understand, like, where those gaps and understanding are so that I can be more effective in in how I communicate with people and and learn something from from people who think differently than I do. So yeah,

I love that. And I guess the other thing that I wanted to just come back to so as I get my concentration back after that little power outage was so you being able to go on that journey of peeling back those layers of seeking validation, like it's allowed you to get to this point where you're at now where you've got when you describe your relationship with your wife and how you're able just to be there for each other in a way that like I've imagined a lot of people would be listening I Want a bit of that in my life?

Yeah, let me share with you a text thread from today. Yeah. And I'm going to try not to just break down crying. So I was thinking today how grateful I am that are, this is what I texted Tracy, I was just thinking today how grateful I am, how that our marriage has grown into one that's more about being with each other, and enjoying who God has created us to be rather than performance and expecting what we can do for each other. I just, I love being with you. And she was she was like, Oh, I love you too. And I'm talking about, you know, some she was with her son for grad school friends today. And that one of them bought a ring, and he's ready to propose. And she's like, we had this discussion about marriage and weddings. And I was telling him how much more I like and love you now than when we were dating. And we've been married for almost 13 years.

Yeah, that's good.

I mean, I think you've had a similar experience that you've got a few more miles out Amara than I do. Most people have been married the length that we have, don't have that kind of experience. Sadly.

Yeah. And and what generally happens is that those first few years when the kids are young, which I know you're still amongst it, is really challenging, because you go from just having each other to then having to deal with that, and then trying to regulate your own stuff. And, and if you've never been shown, well, then you don't know how, right and you've only ever been modelled. One thing, which won't necessarily work for you, even if it would be Aaron. So then you're going to run into these problems and, and you get a choice, what you've talked about, you get a choice, and you can take a moment to, okay, if there's an opportunity for you to open up and tell your story and have a safe place for you to do so. Well, then you can start to make those changes. And you can bring that into your world and like so we have these conversations Kate and I as well, where it's like, it's so great that we are excited about our future. And just even though we go through tough times, still still challenging moments, like big moments, but we're able to work through them and always come out at a much better place. And yeah, that's, that's living, right.

Yeah. And that's and that's the fruit but the I'm gonna get a little crass here. And I'm quoting Morgan again, here. Good fruit comes from a good tree. You don't get a good tree without good soil. The way to get good soil through a lot of shit.

Yep, I love that. I think that's probably a good place for us to wrap it up.

Yeah. And just to wrap it up with a tactical practical piece here again from Morgan because he's great with this. Yeah. And I didn't realise that I've been doing this for years, to some extent, but now I'm doing it much more intentionally. He talks about this relational model, like a like a triangle. So the base of the triangle, the biggest area of your focus should be time with God, like, soaking in his presence, receiving his validation. As a son as a daughter, boom, biggest piece should be there. And then it's your own sole care. Like the things that bring you joy and fill you up and all those things. Then family but marriage first, then kits, which we do we've been doing rather well for the past 13 years. Yeah. Then when he calls like hearted kings, like you, the very few people who have access to you who want the same things out of life that you didn't gotta fight through the same crap to get there. Yeah, love that. And then there's this tiny little sliver, that's everything else.

Yeah, and how often do we get caught in the everything else when it should only be this leather

finger and I'll be the first one to say I don't do it particularly well on a moment to moment daily basis, but over the half decade in the decade gone rather well. Yeah,

improving like you said, looking at the decade and looking back at how far you've come in that space. I certainly don't get it right all the time either. And I can get drawn into the things that aren't important but unless you have that certainty on what most isn't is most important and have that committed to paper or somewhere that makes it tangible that makes it true that that removes us removes any of the confusion and yeah, like you're gonna you're gonna keep running into those things, but if you have them in habit somewhere then it's gonna make it so much easier to keep yourself on track. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So

So yeah, if you want to follow along with my journey as I continue to unpack and riff and combine and have My own ideas about this stuff. As long as and random ramblings about things, thankfully, I have a team to keep me from random rambling too far off the reservation now. Natalie, Armando, Brian, Jeff. Darren, super great team, the end of the adventure on the greatest side of things. So definitely enjoy working with them and, and riding with them. It's just been really great to be around the Leichhardt. People who are going in the same direction and find do the same craft to get there.

Fantastic. Well, then, it's always great to reconnect with you. Like we've talked about one day, we'll get to do it face to face, hopefully sooner rather than later,

fingers crossed that my Purdue gig sends me to Sydney for a coastal engineering conference in December.

I'm already planning the renovations for your whole tribe, but always a joy to hear experience. And thank you so much for sharing so openly. And honestly, your story and your learnings and the difficult times. I appreciate you and I appreciate you sharing.

Yeah. Thanks, brother. Appreciate you, man. And it's always so good to connect and just looking forward to the next time.

Absolutely. Thanks, Dan.

I hope you enjoyed this episode of The Grief Code podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Please share it with a friend or family member that you know would benefit from hearing it too. If you are truly ready to heal your unresolved or unknown grief. Let's chat. Email me at info at Ian Hawkins coaching.com You can also stay connected with me by joining the Grief Code community at Ian Hawkins coaching.com forward slash The Grief Code and remember, so that I can help even more people to heal. Please subscribe and leave a review on your favourite podcast platform