Working WITH your Lawyer to Reduce the Stress of Divorce

Welcome to the wealth and wellness podcast with me Kalee Boisvert. I specialize in helping people to achieve their financial goals. I have a love for all things numbers, and I'm passionate about financial literacy. My goal is to spark healthy and positive conversations around wealth and investment, and create a world where nobody is limited by their financial situation. But wealth is just one piece of the equation of living our best lives. So join me as we explore both wealth and wellness topics. From your net worth to your self worth. Get ready to take confident action. Hello, this is Kaylee. And thank you so much for listening in to this episode of the wealth and wellness podcast, excited to be joined by a returning guest. It's been a while. And so today's topic, I think it's a very important topic. I think all our topics are important. But this is very important, and can have a very big impact on your wealth and wellness. So we're joined today by Christine Shepherd who is a founding partner of Smith and Lidl. And that's where she supports clients on family and divorce law. Her passion is crafting unique solutions for individual families. And she takes pride in being able to translate difficult legal concepts into language that is easily understood by non lawyers, which is very helpful, I think, for clients on the receiving end. Because just like my industry, there's a lot of jargon that we don't understand or know. And we sometimes don't want to ask because it feels sometimes like there is that expectation. But to know that there's someone like Christine out there who's in your corner, who's trying to kind of break that down and make sense of it as well for her clients is is great to know. So thank you so much, Christine, for joining. And we're going to talk a little bit about the divorce separation process, working with a lawyer and ways to really, you know, amplify that make that the best experience that it can be and reduce your stress along the way. With that. So to get started, can you share maybe a little bit about your background? Oh, my gosh, my voice is going and what brought you to to, I guess, create your own firm and do the work you're doing?

Sure. And yeah, thanks so much for having me on again. Kaylee. It's a pleasure to be here. Smith and Lidl was founded I guess about five and a half years ago now by myself and my partner, Kelly, and we fundamentally believe in doing law differently. So our whole practice is premised on, Kelly and I are taking tasks onboard that we feel we are each good at. And so she does most of our litigation, she does our bookkeeping, she deals with the fun people like insurance and kind of business matters for the firm. And like you mentioned previously, I love being able to talk to her clients and help them understand the law and how it can apply to them if they're going through either a separation or maybe they're moving in with a new partner or something like that. So kind of at the beginning, or at the end of your relationship. And then of course, with parenting and child support as well, that can kind of arise at any time. So you know, it's a, I guess, always changing area of law is the other piece of that. So I find it really interesting that way. And of course it intersects with so many different things like property law, and wills and estates law, sometimes criminal law, and you just never really know what you're gonna get. So even though it seems like you know, lots of people undergo separations, you really want to make sure that you're going to work with a lawyer who understands the ins and outs and can identify, you know, you might have a big tax problem coming up, or, Yes, I definitely have seen this before. And I know how to reorganize your corporate structure, or get someone on board who can do that for you, right. So, you know, each separation is different, and each family just has different needs. And that's what I really enjoy doing is kind of being the quarterback to, to all the people that might be involved and making sure that the client has the information they need to make decisions with confidence.

Yeah, that's amazing. And so helpful. You're right, there's so many just different moving parts to people's lives. So we can't just kind of shove them in a box and be like, you'll probably just need that and so really getting to know their situation. And that two perspectives. I really love that about your firm like since I've met you and you share that with me. I think that's so helpful. Just like there's we we have our strengths and whatnot. So it's nice that you guys have a team you've created that's working really well in that sense. Um, so to get started, can you talk about, like how people can and change the approach to, you know, working with their lawyers. I think that's the key term here is, it's your partner, your person that's there to help you. And I think sometimes we go into it maybe with a lot of like fear and stress and anxiety just because like the emotions of what people are going through with divorce and separation are big, like life transitions, and then sometimes, yeah, that maybe it doesn't get off to a great start, or it's, it's just doesn't have a great foundation that relation with their relationship with their lawyer as well. So how can people kind of change that approach to one of working with like, so it's someone who's on your side, and you're really maximizing that outcome.

So I think from the start, it's really important to look around for a lawyer that you feel comfortable with, and I guess I can liken it to, you know, find a really good pair of shoes or something, right. Like, if they're not comfortable at the beginning, they're never going to be comfortable. So if you call, and you know, you can't get through to the lawyer right away, or you have a conversation, and you just don't understand what the lawyer is talking about, or you're feeling like you're not connecting with that lawyer, that's probably not the right fit for you. And it doesn't say anything negative about you or that way, or it's just perhaps that you're not communicating the same way. Or maybe you have different expectations about the relationship, you know, whatever the case may be, if you don't feel comfortable, kind of right off the bat, that's probably a good indicator that things are not going to get better. So, you know, aside from the obvious, right, I know that people will look, you know, they'll ask around for recommendations. So look at lawyer reviews, and things like that, but, you know, pick up the phone talk to their assistant, see if they, you know, the assistant, Are they helpful, right, that's gonna be the first point of contact for most lawyers offices, at least the ones I know of, right. So if you're able to talk to you, the assistant of the assistant is knowledgeable and helpful. And then you can talk to the lawyer, you understand what the lawyer is talking about, and having an understanding about how the lawyer can help you, in your circumstances, is all really, really important to factor in, right. So, you know, I think it goes back to that old adage, do you know this person? Do you like them? And do you trust them? So you might not know them right away? But do you get a feeling you can like and trust them to do a good job for you?

Yeah, and I think maybe people don't spend enough time at that stage or really dig in, like a bit deeper like, and it's something I encouraged to in my industry is like, interview people, because it's the same thing, that goodness of fit, working with a financial advisor is some people will be a good fit for you some won't. So treating it like an interview, and you're trying to find the best fit for you. And it might feel, you know, that the adds on a little bit of work at the beginning, but it saves you a lot later on, right? It saves you having to literally fire that person and then bring on someone else when you're already deep into the process. So having to do a little bit extra legwork at the beginning, is in your favor to just make sure you're finding the right person. So I love those points. What about that communication piece that you mentioned? Like? What would you recommend for people? When it comes to communication? What are expectations? You know, they can have or, or that the lawyer might have and how we can kind of how they can come together with, I guess on good terms with those communication expectations.

Yes, this is a super important point. And I think one that is easy to overlook on both sides, right on the lawyer side and on the client side, because lawyers are used to doing this all day every day. And so, you know, our office has made a point of including communication protocols and our retainer contract. So we say, you know, here's when you can expect to hear from us. Here's how we like to communicate, you know, please talk to us. And I tell people, right, if you want to take a break, if you want to go on vacation, or this is just too much for you, whatever the case may be, just tell us, I don't want to hear from you for a couple of weeks. That's great. We will stop, you know, putting that on, right. So, and in the same way, if you know, I try and ask people, right, do you want to have in person meetings? Do you like virtual meetings? Do you prefer speaking about these things? Or would you rather have a letter from us setting out your options, right, and we try and communicate with people in their preferred methods so that it's a bit more comfortable for them. But in the same way, you know, this is also the era of Let's do everything as soon as possible. And you know, some people might expect, you know, I want my lawyer to get back to me in an hour when I send an email or, yeah, I absolutely expect that they'll be able to answer me at 10pm or whatever the case is. So if that's what your expectation is, you need to I say be upfront about that and see if you can find a lawyer who is willing to meet those expectations and at least having a conversation kind of right off the bat about what is have a reasonable expectation, what's not? Can we meet in the middle somewhere? Or is this just not going to work at all? Because we're diametrically different communicators? I think that's a really important piece. Because if the communication goes off track, it's really almost impossible for you to get back on track and, you know, keep up with things and then work in that true partnership that you should have with your lawyer.

Yeah, love it. And what about like, I feel like sometimes it's almost like people can be their own worst enemies, like in the divorce process, because, you know, you're you're getting things like advice and hearing things from maybe friends or family or people that have gone through it. And then you're reading things on the internet, and you're, you're dealing with maybe the difficult acts and things like that. And so maybe, unfortunately, they can kind of like you bring it to the lawyer that you're working with. And, and it's maybe not, you know, the best way of communicating or whatnot, or, or things to communicate about. So how can I guess like, what are the biggest challenges people have about kind of being their own worst enemies in the divorce process is what I'm trying to get at? And, you know, what can they do to change that like, almost kind of being a good client to make it productive? Because I know, one of your things is being efficient and effective. And so how can they, from their perspective show up that way?

I think there's a lot to unpack with that question for sure. Because, you know, definitely I understand why people want to do this, right. It's just, it's such a big part of your life when you're going through this. And it's natural to talk to your friends to talk to your family, and people are always going to have their input, and then maybe you're Googling things. But it's so easy to come up with misinformation, and then confuse yourself about, you know, does this apply to me, I can't remember what my lawyer said, but I don't want to call my lawyer because I don't want to pay to talk to them. And so I'm gonna go into a spiral. And now I think that there are these things that are going to apply, and I'm getting really worried about it and stressed out that this is going to happen, and maybe I'm gonna get kicked out of my house, or I'm gonna have to pay so much spousal support that I can't afford, or whatever it is, right, and people spiral. And they kind of get to this, I don't know, bottom, where they realize, okay, I really do need to, you know, talk to my lawyer and just ask her, most of the time I can, you know, bring it back out and say, No, this is, this is how this applies. This is what we're talking about. And then I always try and ask, like, what led you down this path, right? Because often, there's some sort of trigger some, something that has happened that I don't know about, but of course, all their friends and family know about, right? So I think that's really key is keeping your lawyer up to date about the day to day things that are happening, right? If somebody moves out, or you're thinking about buying a new house, or, you know, your kid's gonna go to a new school, something like that, like, those are all important things to share with your lawyer, and then you can, you know, make plans around those transitions. And it's much easier to do that, at the front end of those as opposed to, oh, yes, now, I've just bought a house, but we don't actually have a property agreement. And so now I need you to, you know, really rush and try and get this house into my name and make sure that I can keep it at the end of the day. Right. So that adds, you know, not only urgency, which adds to stress, and it's unpleasant for everyone involved. But yeah, just that stress, the last minute, and then it's going to add to your legal fees, because your lawyer is going to have to drop everything to address that because of this urgency that's been created. Whereas if you say, Hey, I'm house hunting, I'm thinking I'd like to buy a house, you can start to plan for that contingency, right? So just being honest and upfront, and then they hear lawyer, kind of the first point of call if you have a question about your legal matter, as opposed to your friend or your family member or Google

tele, Google has a lot of information, but it's not always applicable to your situation. So let's remember that,

and it's really hard, I think, to filter it through, right? Because Absolutely, there's some great information out there. There's some great blogs, and you know, some of it is absolutely correct. But, you know, trying to weave wade through that and determine, yes, this is applicable to me, in my circumstances, and this is the correct thing to look at is really, really challenging.

Yeah. And so if people can, like, I think one of the big fears people have about working with lawyers, in this sentence is just the cost. And you've mentioned that like it can get really, I think people get really scared about well, what's it going to cost and lawyers are expensive, and these are the things that circle through people's minds about it. So, you know, I'm sure part of it is that they can, you know, just, again, we talked about be you know, as effective with communication and expectations as possible to kind of make sure that you're not adding to the cost and time necessary, maybe. But how can one maybe like develop those expectations? You know, what are realistic expectations for your clients to expect from the lawyer? What are realistic expectations for the lawyer to have? And yeah, how can they kind of come together? In a nice harmony those expectations?

Yes, that's fair. And I think from the outset, having that discussion, right, how much is this going to cost? So the lawyers need enough information about what's going on, so that we know, okay, here are the next steps that we can first see, at that point, a lawyer should be able to give you a ballpark about what things are going to cost. So on our billing model, we don't go by the hour, and we don't have a flat fee model. But I will tell people, you know, if we work together for six months, if we work together for a year, if we have a three week trial, three years from now, like I can give you all those numbers, I can tell you what the average divorce costs for our firm, I can give you all of those things. And of course, there's contingencies, are you going to be able to work it out? Right away? Do you need mediation? Do you need some sort of other third party to help you get there? Do you need interim court applications, so there's a lot of factors that go into it. But if you give your lawyer the opportunity to have an understanding about where things might shake out, then, you know, at our firm, we give you the numbers, and we let you budget for it. And I say even on the billable hour model, your lawyer should be able to give you a ballpark estimate of what things are gonna cost. Like, if you need to have a short hearing about interim child support, your lawyer should be able to tell you, Okay, I estimate your costs are going to be between x and y. And then that lets you budget for it and decide is that worthwhile to take that step at this time? Or maybe not? So that's part one. Part two is, you know, organization. And I know you mentioned efficiency, and as a huge part of this, when your lawyer asks you for all your financial documents, or something like that is so much easier for us, if you put them all together as best you can and send them off in one big stash to us. So we can kind of go through and see, okay, here's what's missing still. And it's much harder to do that if you're sending a bank statement at a time. It's also really helpful for us if you give us a roadmap, or some sort of indication about why you're giving us stuff. So if I've asked you, you know, for the last three years tax returns, and you give me your last year's tax returns, but also a bank statement from four years ago, I'm left wondering, should I know about this bank statement? What am I looking for? Right? And I'm gonna have questions right away. But if you say I'm giving you this bank statement to show you that, you know, the down payment for our house came from this bank account. Great, right? Like, I've got that right away, we don't need to have back and forth on it. And I can make that note and move forward. In the same way, kind of just taking a second to organize your thoughts, right? People are gonna have lots of questions about the process as you move through. And that's totally understandable. But I also tell people all the time, it's really hard for me, if you send me an email every time you have a thought or a question about something without context, right, context is key. So if you can give me a little bit of that background and say, you know, like, back to our house example, previously, I'm thinking about purchasing a house. How does that affect me? Can we have a conversation about that? Great, as opposed to just send me something saying, does she have a claim to house located at whatever new address? I didn't know about this new house? What are you talking about? Did you buy something? Immediately I go down this spiral? On my own? So again, it's so much easier if you just tell me, yes, I would like to, you know, buy something or, you know, worst case scenario, I have already bought something. Please tell me how this affects us. Right. So just giving some of that context. And then having that conversation and being forthright with your lawyer about what's happening is the easiest thing to we have heard most of it. I won't say we've heard at all, but we've heard a lot of what's going on. And that's the other thing is it's really important for us to have the context of your relationship to Right. Was there adultery? Is there addiction issues? Was there family violence? These are all really important considerations for us, because I want to know those things when I'm suggesting how we can resolve your file, like is mediation appropriate for the two of you? Do we need to have some sort of safety measures implemented? You know, is this something where maybe one side is just not quite ready to have a divorce? And so it doesn't matter what we do, they're going to bury their head in the sand and just not really be ready. Right? So having that context also is really helpful. But if you, you know, hide about it or are not forthright with your lawyer about it, and it comes out in an affidavit in court. That's so much worse. Lawyers really can be most effective if they have all the information and they're not blindsided at the last minute.

Um, That's all very, really like interesting and good points, it just goes like it's a good reminder of how beneficial it is to have a lawyer working with you when you're going through this because all the things you bring up and talk about are probably things that don't even we don't consider and think about. And it is pretty complicated thing to try to manage or navigate like on your own or trying to do it maybe a way that you think of if you can sort of take a do it yourself approach. This is why lawyers are here. And again, it's having that this conversation we're having is about having a lawyer on your side, like it's that they're your ad, they're there to advocate for you to help you to help you get through it. It's not like an adversary relationship where you have to be worried and scared. Because I know when I went through that with my daughter, and child custody or child access, and things like that with my accent was not a good experience. And I think I ended up being more scared of my lawyer than anything else. So

yeah, that's that's not what you want. Yes, sorry, you just reminded me of another point too, about the benefits of having a lawyer. And I think one that is absolutely overlooked is, when you're going through this, it's emotional, and it's terrible. And like we've said stressful a few times. And I think that's even the case where you're, you know, getting along well, if it's an amicable split, it's still hard, because you're restructuring your family, you're going to have concerns about money, and all of a sudden supporting to households, when there was only one before and things like that. So it's hard for people to separate themselves emotionally, and make more logical decisions, which is what you want to be doing when you're making, especially financial decisions for your family. And so I also always say, you know, if you can't like go see a counselor to write have supports, and your friends and your family and people to talk to you and support you in that way. So that as best you can, you can try and make logical and rational decisions, and not let the emotions get the best of you and your family matter. Because as far as I can tell, that's absolutely where legal fees get out of hand, where people are going to trial about stuff is they've just gone down that emotional path, and they can't see the forest through the trees, and they just get so hung up on being right or making sure that they, you know, point out that this spouse of theirs is a big liar. And that becomes the be all end all. And they just cannot settle their matter, even though maybe there's not the money there to fight about it. Maybe you're using your kids RSPs for a trial fee, right? Like, that doesn't make anybody feel good as the lawyer, I want to make sure we're working with you efficiently we can get you, you know, in and out as soon as possible with a really fair outcome. And, you know, it's people who are not able, I think, to look past the emotional side who wind up in those worse situations.

Yeah, yeah, that having that person like that, with that level experience, you've gone through it with many different clients in many scenarios. And so you know, sort of already how it plays out, like, let's not, I guess, downplay the expertise of a family lawyer, because you've, you've done it, it's not your first divorce, it's, you've gone through so many in so many different scenarios, that that is extremely valuable knowledge for us to be able to kind of access and have as, as far as working with a family lawyer that we wouldn't know ourselves because in life, it's well, how many, you know, like divorces? Are we personally going to go through? Probably not? Not many, I would hope and, and so as a divorce lawyer, though, you've done you know, many, many and gone through it over and over and over again. So you get to have that level of expertise that you can share with clients working with you. And yeah, we can't, like downplay the importance of that, and, and just having the ability to see, you know, this is generally what I see play out if we, if we go down that path, and hopefully kind of helping people bring that back to that cake. Can I get back into that emotional or rational headspace? Of course, there's a lot of emotional you know, like thoughts and feelings going on. But can I get into that? Back to that? Okay, how do we get through this though? How do we get to a resolution? What would you say for instance, situations where like one side, you mentioned it briefly, but like with one side that isn't maybe ready, or if they're dragging their feet? Like how can if it feels like you're like you're on track, and you're ready to go, and that side isn't like what can you do in those scenarios?

Yeah, so unfortunately, I don't know that there's a lot of good answers and it really depends a lot on the relationships still between the former partners. Sometimes what we've done is we have recommended counseling for both of them, where they can go and you know, have a discussion about how they're going to, you know, for example, look at parenting now and have that counselor, help them accept that the relationship is over. And there are now some decisions to be made about what's going on. Unfortunately, like, you can't force that on someone. And so if they're not willing, then we're looking at maybe we have to bring court applications, or we have to be a bit more direct about what we're going to do to get financial information to start moving this forward to get into a mediation or a case conference in core to have these discussions. And unfortunately, it's it's left to the client to decide how strong are you going to be in trying to move this forward? How long are you going to continue this to stagnate? And sometimes it depends too, financially, right? Like, maybe the client can't wait for the other to be emotionally ready to move on. It just has to has to happen now. So, you know, unfortunately, like I said, no real good answers there. And they just, yeah, unfortunately, the, the other partner just kind of gets dragged along with the process if one of them is just ready to go.

Yep. Okay. Makes sense. Um, you're just what I love about chatting with you is you are just so approachable and you can break things down so well and and make sense of it, too. And so I think with lawyers, there's often again, there's like this fear people have this fear of lawyers. I'm not sure why but, or sometimes, like allergies are scary. Um, so what are maybe some common misconceptions that you can kind of, you know, share with people that aren't exactly true about lawyers and, and some of the benefits to actually working with lawyers? Like I think we kind of briefly touched on that, but maybe like, kind of myth busting, myths, misconceptions.

Well, thank you. Kaylee, I try really hard not to be scary. Or office is actually pink because we like it to be welcoming. And, you know, I know that it's never going to be a fun phone call if you have to phone a divorce lawyer. But I would hope Yeah, that people have that kind of breath of relief when they when they talk to us. But yeah, so misconceptions. So I think, firstly, that lawyers are always more expensive than some of the other services out there. Not the case. We have seen, you know, separations agreements, where I go, like, oh, I would have done that for a few $1,000 cheaper. And this was, the other thing, too, is where's we have so much insurance, and we are held to a very high professional standard that we have to meet, we have to give people good advice, we have to treat people with civility, things like that, if you go to one of these other non lawyer services, they don't have those professional regulations, they don't have insurance. So if you, you know, have a good agreement of the end of the day. And maybe it's not the best agreement, maybe something was missed, you don't have recourse as against that person, really. Whereas if you if your lawyer messes things up, you have all kinds of different things that you can do. So, you know, I think just having that safety mechanism, that understanding that this person, you know, has the education and has the qualifications is able to practice law in Alberta is something that should give people a lot of confidence. And then the other thing, of course, is sorry, I've really lost my train of thought here, can you cut this part? But it gets just the complexity of family law to begin with, right? And you want somebody who's going to have or you can be confident that we'll be able to identify future issues for you. They can say, Yeah, I see there's a big tax problem coming here. And I can give you legal advice, because that's the biggest difference between a lawyer and a paralegal is, you know, paralegals or non lawyers are not able to give you legal advice. They can't. So if you ask them, should I pay child support? Or how much those reports should I give? Or, you know, do I have an exemption in this property? They can't answer those questions, nor should they, because that is something that requires a lot of training and experience to answer and it's not. It's not simple, I guess is the the key at the end of the day is family, while like I said is really challenging because it does touch on so many different areas of law, and it's always changing. It's constantly being updated as society changes. So there's just a lot to to know and it takes a lot of educational experience to give that good advice that people can be calm. Put it in receiving.

Okay, love it. And then what would be your top tips for people for having a cost effective and efficient separation like so if we could sum it up as some of the top tips you have for people to make sure it's as good of an experience as it can be? What would that be?

Sure, if so, organizing yourself kind of from the beginning, making sure that you choose somebody who you're able to speak to you feel comfortable asking them questions, and you understand what they're telling you in reply. Those are keys, then keep that organization going and keep the communication going. If you lay the groundwork for that good working relationship, at the outset, things are going to go much smoother as between you and your lawyer. Of course, we can't guarantee your whole file will go swimmingly. But at least you'll have that good working partnership. Be as efficient as you can with your time, you know, collect your questions, and then have a meeting, as opposed to, you know, trying to ask things piecemeal or in a vacuum. And then I don't think we've touched on this part yet, but use the lawyer staff as much as possible. They are super helpful. They have a wealth of information, and they can answer some of those non legal advice, questions about, you know, I'm not sure if I should send this in as part of my financial information. Does Christine need that document and our staff can answer those types of questions. They can help you schedule things they can walk you through, you know, the process of divorce and things like that, without giving legal advice. So if you are able to cultivate that relationship and just work with the Office as a whole in an efficient way, then that will help you hopefully reduce your own stress as you go through the process.

Yeah, absolutely. Those are great tips. And, and it's just a reminder that you know, yourself and your situation fully. And so there is some onus on you, as a client to really step up and be the best you can be as well as, as a client to kind of check those boxes off to make it as exactly as efficient, as easy as helpful as you can be in the process too. So don't think that it's completely out of your control, and you're just sort of at the mercy and the lawyers will take the lead, but the more you can step up and help and be Yeah, a part of that, the better and the more smooth, probably everything works as well. So thank you so much for that. This is great conversation again, you're so approachable. So for anyone listening on this conversation, I highly recommend if this is something you're going through a friend or family member, reach out to Christine and her firm and they are amazing. Amazing to talk to. How is it pleasurable reach out and find you what's the best way?

Probably by phone is our preferred our phone numbers 403-999-1650 Or if they prefer email, it's legal, l e. G al at Smith and little.ca.

Perfect and I'll include that in the show notes as well. Thank you so much, Christine, and thank you everyone for listening into this episode. I will catch you all on next week's episode and goodbye for now.