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All social movements start by moving away from something. But while the 3-Word Rebellion begins with what you are against, it quickly becomes about what you want to create!
Created by my guest, Dr. Michelle Mazur, the 3-Word Rebellion helps business owners to create a positive 3-word message that grows their business into a movement.
Once you have your 3-word rebellion, what do you do with it?
Join us as we discuss
MEET MICHELLE:
Michelle Mazur works with brilliant business owners who are shaking things up...but having trouble talking about it. She combines the tools of successful social movements with the qualitative research skills she earned in her communications PhD to help them craft their powerful, captivating message. The author of 3 books (including the newly-released 3 Word Rebellion) and featured in Fast Company, Entrepreneur and Inc., she knows that speaking about what you do in a clear and captivating way is the key to reaching the people you could help the most.
CONNECT WITH MICHELLE:
For more information about the Unleashing YOUR Great Work podcast or to learn more about Dr. Amanda Crowell, check out my website: amandacrowell.com
Mentioned in this episode:
The Aligned Time Journal
The Unleashing Your Great Work podcast is sponsored by the Aligned Time Journal! The Aligned Time Journal is here to answer the question "But HOW?" How can we figure out what our Great Work is? How can we get started, stay with it, and finish our Great Work so it can go out in the world and have an impact? Click here to learn more, and try it out for yourself!
Welcome to unleashing your great work, a podcast about
Unknown:doing the work that matters the most to you. I'm your host, Dr.
Unknown:Amanda Kroll, a cognitive psychologist, speaker, coach,
Unknown:and the creator of the aligned time journals. Every week on
Unknown:this podcast, we are asking the big questions. What is great
Unknown:work? And why does it matter so much to us? What does it take to
Unknown:do more of your great work without sacrificing everything
Unknown:else? And how does the world change when more people are
Unknown:doing more of the work that matters the most to them?
Unknown:Whether you're great work is building your own small
Unknown:business, or managing a remote team at a multinational company.
Unknown:You'll find insight and answers here. Welcome, everybody to
Unknown:unleashing your great work. I am your host, Dr. Amanda Kroll and
Unknown:today I could not be happier to be joined by Dr. Michelle maser.
Unknown:She works with brilliant business owners who are shaking
Unknown:things up but having trouble talking about it. She's the
Unknown:author of three books, including a newly released version of her
Unknown:three word rebellion, which I've read, and it's very good. And
Unknown:she knows that speaking about what you do in a clear and
Unknown:captivating way is the key to reaching the people that you
Unknown:could help the most. Welcome to the podcast. Michelle.
Unknown:Thank you, Amanda. I am thrilled to be here.
Unknown:Yay. We're equally thrilled. Yeah. So I have a question for
Unknown:you. It's the question I start every podcast with and that
Unknown:question is, tell us a little bit about your great work.
Unknown:My great work is all around communication and messaging, I
Unknown:created a framework called the three word rebellion. And what
Unknown:the purpose of that is to encapsulate the change that you
Unknown:want your business to create in just three words. So think about
Unknown:start with why the five second rule, the four hour workweek,
Unknown:these are all phrases that we've heard before, they are phrases
Unknown:that have made us curious to want to know more. And I created
Unknown:a process that I can guide people through or they can read
Unknown:a book and figure out what their own three word rebellion is that
Unknown:message they want to be known for. And I've, I mean, I've been
Unknown:passionate about communication since I was about 15 years old,
Unknown:I think I started down this path. But I really believe that
Unknown:if we can powerfully communicate the value our business creates,
Unknown:other people will get it, they'll get on board with us,
Unknown:they'll become the messengers of our message. And ultimately, our
Unknown:business can be a bit of a movement maker, and out there
Unknown:doing good in the world and reaching the people we most need
Unknown:to reach with our message. So my great work is all around the
Unknown:three word rebellion and communication. It is what I love
Unknown:and what I'm most passionate about in the world. Love it.
Unknown:So your three word rebellion is three word rebellion.
Unknown:Yes, I'm super moto like that.
Unknown:Yeah. So there's a really interesting word in that, which
Unknown:I'd love for you to talk a little bit more about, like,
Unknown:what is it about a rebellion? Because I've seen you I think
Unknown:your podcast is called the rebel podcast.
Unknown:Rebel uprising. Yeah.
Unknown:Rebel. Rebel uprising. Yeah. So there's something about
Unknown:rebellion that seems to speak to you. What is that? Yeah,
Unknown:it's really this idea of taking a stand for something. There's
Unknown:so much like, Oh, me too, marketing, where everything
Unknown:sounds the same. That all of a sudden, when there is a fresh
Unknown:voice on the scene, you're like, oh, this person is interesting.
Unknown:They're saying something different. And I never really
Unknown:felt like I fit in, in the like, on line, business space, much
Unknown:like I didn't fit in, in high school. Like I was the theater
Unknown:kid, the Speech and Debate kid. And in the online business
Unknown:world, I feel like there are these like popular people who
Unknown:are really, really well known. And then there's the rest of us
Unknown:kind of quietly doing our great work in the world and not
Unknown:getting attention. So for me, when you kind of stage a
Unknown:rebellion, you're saying like, Hey, I see things and I don't
Unknown:like them. I think we could do things better. We could do
Unknown:things differently. We could be doing more good in the world.
Unknown:And so staging that kind of rebellion is, you know, a
Unknown:necessary step for people who don't feel They fit in to gather
Unknown:their right people around them. And I know even for me, like
Unknown:when I first started this business, I started as a public
Unknown:speaking coach before I was going into brand messaging and
Unknown:positioning and all of that. And my first client came because I
Unknown:wrote this really, really ranty blog post about how not to be a
Unknown:motivational speaker. And it was in response to this woman that I
Unknown:saw who like, took the stage. And she asked us all to stand
Unknown:up. And we did, she asked us to clap. And we did. And then she
Unknown:said, You have given me a standing ovation. And now I must
Unknown:earn it. Yeah. And boy, she did not earn it. And that bond, this
Unknown:ranty blog post about how to do better with speaking. And it was
Unknown:the type of posts that you're scared to share. Because it's
Unknown:like, oh, this is super edgy. But people ended up responding
Unknown:to it. And then I got this email with the blog post in the title.
Unknown:And I was like, crap. I'm in for it. And I opened it up, and he's
Unknown:like, Hey, I love this. I'm looking for a new public
Unknown:speaking coach, I have a big event coming up. Would you like
Unknown:to talk about it? And I didn't have a business or anything
Unknown:then. But yeah, like, no, no packages, no fees, nothing.
Unknown:You're not even you're like, Yes, I can.
Unknown:I was like, yes, yes, let's talk about it. And he ended up, he
Unknown:was speaking in front of Barbara Bush's Points of Light
Unknown:Foundation in front of the firmer former First Lady and all
Unknown:of these famous people. And we work together on that speech,
Unknown:and it was fantastic. So that's that rant, that rebellion really
Unknown:started my business.
Unknown:Mm hmm. So I'm, I'm noticing that and I'm just noticing that
Unknown:it's a sort of a positioning against something. Is that
Unknown:purposeful? Or can your rebellion be for something? Or
Unknown:is it really a strong stance that you need to be against
Unknown:something
Unknown:you need? Both? So I have based this messaging theory, or this
Unknown:messaging framework out of social movement theory, so all
Unknown:social movements are moving away from something and when I work
Unknown:with people, we we name their villain, so my villain now is
Unknown:manipulative marketing, very much against all the bro
Unknown:marketing, the scarcity. Yeah, all of like the swipe files that
Unknown:we see that are loaded with NLP and other stuff that people
Unknown:don't quite understand. And so that's what I'm against. But I'm
Unknown:for the three word rebellion, creating this message that
Unknown:matters. And that encapsulates the change you want to create.
Unknown:So the three word rebellion itself typically ends up being a
Unknown:positive message for people. Like, for example, one of my
Unknown:clients, hers is profit without worry. And she creates marketing
Unknown:funnels for people. And, like, funnel is such a terrible world
Unknown:word that people don't like. But her funnels were so radically
Unknown:different that calling it that was a disservice. So we came up
Unknown:with this idea of like, okay, profit without worry. And her
Unknown:clients, right, clients were like, Ooh, yeah, I want I want
Unknown:that. How do I like how do I do that? Yeah. And that's really
Unknown:the power of that three word rebellion. So you have the,
Unknown:you're against something, you have a villain, you have a foil,
Unknown:but also you're for something and creating a change in the
Unknown:world.
Unknown:So once you have your three word, rebellion, what do you do
Unknown:with it?
Unknown:So once you have your three word rebellion, you get to create
Unknown:more messaging. Because it's like those three words are there
Unknown:to create intrigue, to create curiosity to grab people's
Unknown:attention and make them think like, okay, she's doing
Unknown:something a little bit different in the world. But what happens
Unknown:next, is that, great, you've got their attention. Now, how do you
Unknown:get their buy in? Well, you need more messaging that really
Unknown:builds a persuasive argument for your work, and reaches people
Unknown:along the customer awareness spectrum. Right. So this is
Unknown:Eugene Schwartz breakthrough advertising. He talks about
Unknown:like, the unaware audience, the people who don't know you yet,
Unknown:how are we reaching them? What conversations are we having? And
Unknown:then how do we get them to have like a belief shift or realize
Unknown:what the problem is they're having? What are those
Unknown:conversations that structure this argument and move people
Unknown:along to being bought into what you're doing and being ready to
Unknown:work with you? We're not selling we're not convincing. We're
Unknown:helping people get ready to work with you. And then once we have
Unknown:that structure, You're down, which ends up being like a
Unknown:pretty large piece of messaging that you just use throughout
Unknown:your marketing and your copy, then we can fill in like the
Unknown:stories, you want to be telling your stories, your clients
Unknown:stories, and how that all relates to your work. So once
Unknown:you have all of that, then it's like, okay, you have this
Unknown:comprehensive messaging strategy that you can use in your
Unknown:marketing and your copy into your sales. And then it's really
Unknown:about applying it to your marketing strategy, because I
Unknown:really believe that any marketing strategy can work if
Unknown:your message is dialed in, it actually resonates with your
Unknown:audience.
Unknown:Interesting. So Michelle, who are you that you would be doing
Unknown:this work? Like who like, tell us how you got here?
Unknown:Yeah, so I have a PhD in communication I was in academia
Unknown:for ever was an assistant professor at the University of
Unknown:Hawaii teaching persuasion in our University of
Unknown:Hawaii. Yeah. Was it awesome? or No?
Unknown:It was not my side. I mean, Hawaii is a beautiful place.
Unknown:Yeah, it's gorgeous. It's very hard to live there. Because I
Unknown:mean, you are in the most, you're on the most isolated
Unknown:island chain in the entire world. Right? Yeah, five hours
Unknown:to get to California, seven hours to get to Japan. So there
Unknown:is, yeah, so you're on your own. And the community tends to be
Unknown:very insular, like, it's hard to break in, it's hard to meet
Unknown:friends, because they see that how lay, which means white
Unknown:person in Hawaiian, okay. Like, they'll just leave in a few
Unknown:months. So it's not worth to get invested. So it was this very,
Unknown:like, isolating time, and I was single at the time as well. And
Unknown:it just, when I was at the point where I had to go up for tenure,
Unknown:it was this decision of like, go up for tenure and commit to
Unknown:living here. Or leave and try to find build a fulfilling life
Unknown:somewhere else. And so I chose to leave.
Unknown:Yeah. And was it just Hawaii? Or was it something about academia?
Unknown:And it didn't really suit you, too?
Unknown:Oh, yeah, academia was I love teaching. I love doing research.
Unknown:I do not love the politics, like I am not a very, I mean, I can
Unknown:be political, however, like, you can always read exactly what I'm
Unknown:thinking and what I'm feeling on my face. So like having that
Unknown:poker face that you would need to go through faculty meetings
Unknown:was not my jam.
Unknown:Yeah, I can, I can see that. And yet, you mentioned that you do
Unknown:like politics. So that's something that you mentioned in
Unknown:your book, actually, is that you sort of started out as somewhat
Unknown:political, but your political dreams were crushed in the third
Unknown:grade. Third grade, that totally changed the course of your life.
Unknown:Yeah. So I was like, I don't know. Like, I was like four or
Unknown:five years old and already into politics like Jimmy Carter,
Unknown:Ronald Reagan, like I knew that this presidential election was
Unknown:happening. I knew I was a Democrat, like, I don't know.
Unknown:How do you know you're a Democrat, but apparently I was
Unknown:and I am. And I just really thought that, oh, politicians
Unknown:are here to help people. And that was so inspiring to my five
Unknown:year old mind. So I thought, Okay, this is my life path. This
Unknown:is what I'm going to do. And then I ran for student council
Unknown:and I realized that a it was really hard and be hard to talk
Unknown:to people, which has a little bit introverted and shy at that
Unknown:point in my life. And I did not when I got crushed
Unknown:Oh, so brutal. Counsel,
Unknown:I know so that dashed my dreams and politics.
Unknown:And yet you persevered and you got a PhD in communications
Unknown:became a professor. And then the politics again cast your dreams
Unknown:or changed them, I guess. Yeah. So what what? Tell us about that
Unknown:moment when you're like sitting in Hawaii feeling isolated and
Unknown:out of place, and yet, I mean, listen, I have a PhD in
Unknown:cognitive psychology and I was 100% on the researcher track
Unknown:period, full stop. No, no train to burn up no sleep till
Unknown:Brooklyn. I was on my way. And then I remember the day that I
Unknown:was like, what if I don't do that? But I have to do that. But
Unknown:what if I don't do that? That little voice right that's
Unknown:whispering in the back of your mind. What if you don't do that
Unknown:Amanda? What if that's not what's right for you? And
Unknown:thinking like That was a very hard moment. Maybe it wasn't for
Unknown:you. But it was for me like, What was that moment like for
Unknown:you? Well, it
Unknown:was interesting because I had several moments going on, like
Unknown:my mom had passed away. Four or five months prior to this
Unknown:decision, I had a boyfriend in England and I had just when my
Unknown:mom passed away, I was actually living in England and teaching
Unknown:there, which was an amazing experience to live in London.
Unknown:And so I had broken up with my boyfriend in London, and was
Unknown:like, No, I'm done with this, like, I'm just done. And it was,
Unknown:it was like this point in time of my life. I'm like, Just gonna
Unknown:burn it all down. Like, I am not happy doing this. There are
Unknown:parts that I like, uh, but it's not enough to keep me here.
Unknown:Like, I have nothing for me here. And especially, you know,
Unknown:after losing my mom losing a boyfriend, it was just like,
Unknown:well, what's one more loss? we'll just, we'll just move
Unknown:through all of this grief together at once. And it just
Unknown:made a lot of sense that I was going to leave and do something
Unknown:different.
Unknown:And where did you go and what did you do? So
Unknown:I am in Seattle, that's where I moved to. And at first, I still
Unknown:was doing some adjunct teaching at the University of Washington.
Unknown:And I also took a research job at Harborview Medical Center in
Unknown:the psychiatry department, which was
Unknown:Wow, psychiatrists.
Unknown:Yeah, yeah, they're an odd group.
Unknown:It was it was a very interesting job. I wasn't working with
Unknown:patients, I was really just doing some like data analysis
Unknown:for them. And then I moved into market research of the Ford
Unknown:consumer product goods. companies like General Mills,
Unknown:Kerrygold. Butter, I, then I was doing some then after that I was
Unknown:doing work with like Microsoft. So I've Yeah, so it was really
Unknown:into market research and doing all of that because I was like,
Unknown:Well, I'm a researcher. So my skills translate, except I'm
Unknown:also psychologically unemployable. I'm a terrible
Unknown:employee.
Unknown:Wait, I'm sorry. Psychologically unemployable. Tell us more about
Unknown:that. What does that mean? Yeah,
Unknown:it means I really don't like people telling me what to do.
Unknown:And the word
Unknown:Siri? Thank you, Siri. But I want Michelle to answer that
Unknown:question. Is Beautiful. So funny.
Unknown:Yeah, I'm not great at taking orders. I always had a lot of
Unknown:questions. So people be like, Well, I think we, you know,
Unknown:like, Michelle, you need to do this. And I'm like, But why and
Unknown:why are we doing it that way? And what if we did it this way.
Unknown:And so I was always this questioner at work, which made
Unknown:me a huge pain in the butt, I'm sure to rebel. Yeah. And so at
Unknown:the same time, I was doing the job, I was blogging on the side,
Unknown:just kind of because I had all of this information about
Unknown:communication in my head, and I really wasn't doing anything
Unknown:with it. And a friend of mine was just like, you should blog,
Unknown:you should do something, get all the goodness out of your brain
Unknown:into the world. So that's what I did. And then eventually, I was
Unknown:at a job and my boss who I loved, he was a great boss. He's
Unknown:like, I'm being promoted. And he's telling me all about this
Unknown:excitedly and like my future at the company. And like, in my
Unknown:head, I'm like, spinning out because I'm like, I don't want
Unknown:to stay here. I don't want I mean, I was planning on quitting
Unknown:in the next six months. I was not planning on telling my
Unknown:employer that soon, but he's honey here. So it was like he
Unknown:was excitedly talking about all this great stuff. And then he's
Unknown:like, so what do you think?
Unknown:I think I'm gonna quit. Oh, wow. Yeah,
Unknown:I'm just like, not today.
Unknown:Wow, what an internal compass you have. Mm hmm. It's like,
Unknown:it's like a dictator in there. It's like, No, you will ask this
Unknown:question. You will quit this job. So tell me like,
Unknown:I just I just couldn't lie to him, right?
Unknown:Yeah.
Unknown:Yeah, but just, it just didn't seem right. To like, pretend
Unknown:that oh, yeah, that sounds great. And I'm totally gonna
Unknown:stay when I'm like, No, I want the hell out.
Unknown:Yeah. Right. So you have a very strong regulator in your
Unknown:psychology. And, and a really strong sense of
Unknown:conscientiousness, it seems like that seems to be something that
Unknown:runs through both like your lived experiences as you're
Unknown:telling them to us here. As well as through your model of your
Unknown:three word rebellion writes like a lot about who are you really
Unknown:what do you really think stop with all the nonsense and trying
Unknown:to like force or fake or trick people in to working with you,
Unknown:and instead just say who you are, sound,
Unknown:yeah, who you are what you believe, get in touch with how
Unknown:they're feeling empathize with people like all of this, like
Unknown:I've always been really aware. And I think because of training
Unknown:and communication of how my words impact other people. And a
Unknown:lot of what we see in business is the people completely unaware
Unknown:of what they're saying what they're promising, and how that
Unknown:impacts other people how it's received. And I am always very
Unknown:tuned in to that. And I think I mean, I think that's what makes
Unknown:me really great. And messaging and communication. Because when
Unknown:I work with a client, I'm always filtering it through this lens
Unknown:of like, how would this person feel if they hear this? Is it
Unknown:going to be like, Oh, push them away? Or is it going to make
Unknown:them come in closer? And I always want to make the right
Unknown:people come in closer?
Unknown:Yeah. Well, it's interesting, because I think you're right,
Unknown:that the vast majority of people are totally unaware of the
Unknown:impact that they're having on other people and the role that
Unknown:they're, you know, the things that we remember that we carry
Unknown:forward in our lives that we help to define ourselves are
Unknown:often just one off comments from other people. And that person
Unknown:had no reason any reality or any sense that what they were saying
Unknown:was gonna carry that person forward for years, or haunt them
Unknown:for years. Yes. And I think what in the interesting thing is that
Unknown:you've got like that juxtaposition. On the one hand,
Unknown:there's all these people sort of blindly unaware of the way words
Unknown:impact them and the way their words are impacting others. And
Unknown:then what you pointed to the people who are acutely aware of
Unknown:exactly which words to say, to get people starting to feel like
Unknown:their scarcity and urgency, and I'm going to FOMO, I'm going to
Unknown:miss out on this. And it's, it's gotta be hard to be the one
Unknown:saying, walk away. First of all, it's actually not that easy to
Unknown:manipulate people into doing what you persuasively want them
Unknown:to that's why like, 1% of people are successful at moving big
Unknown:numbers through sales funnels, and really making millions of
Unknown:dollars. And everybody else spends three to $5,000 trying to
Unknown:do it exactly that way. And then they fail. Right? But
Unknown:nonetheless, your voice it really isn't rebellion, right
Unknown:like that. You should just stop try to opt out of that game. So
Unknown:tell me what struggles have you had sort of bringing this
Unknown:message to the world this this great work of yours? Oh, so
Unknown:many struggle. I mean, it was interesting. So when I first
Unknown:came up with the three word rebellion, it was through a
Unknown:conversation with a book coach named Jenny Nash. And she was
Unknown:like, Oh, you're really onto something with this. You can
Unknown:call it something like the three words speech and I'm like, Cool.
Unknown:I don't want to do public speaking coaching anymore. Like,
Unknown:I like the three words. And then my brand was already
Unknown:communication rebels. I was like, Okay, it's the three word
Unknown:rebellion.
Unknown:And then it felt so bad. Like, it's like, oh,
Unknown:this is a message that it's choosing me like and who am I to
Unknown:deliver this? And we, I totally had this imaginary Nemesis with
Unknown:Donald Miller, the building the story brand guy happening,
Unknown:because Okay, is the guy that is kind of known for messaging.
Unknown:Like, if you go into a Facebook group, and you ask, like, I need
Unknown:help with messaging, someone I can guarantee will recommend his
Unknown:book because it is everywhere. And so he became this like,
Unknown:imaginary nemesis in my head, like, who am I to think that I'm
Unknown:an expert that I am the best in the world at doing this kind of
Unknown:messaging when Donald Miller exists. And, look, he has this
Unknown:New York Times best selling book, and oh, and, and everybody
Unknown:recommends him and he's on all of these podcasts and blah,
Unknown:blah, blah, blah, blah. And it really held me back from putting
Unknown:my work out there. Like to a point where, like, I had
Unknown:multiple coaching sessions with my coach talking about this man
Unknown:who doesn't even know me. Yeah. Yeah. He doesn't know me, but in
Unknown:my head, it's like, I couldn't do the work that I meant to do
Unknown:because he exists and he has this book, and what I mean,
Unknown:looking back, I'm like, Okay, this was so ridiculous, because
Unknown:he and I are so different. We served kind of different
Unknown:clientele, even though he's just recommended to everyone like I'm
Unknown:always serving like the rebels, the misfits, the people who are
Unknown:like swimming in the blue ocean with their new idea, or they're
Unknown:doing something in the intangible results realm, and
Unknown:the story brand never was designed for them either. was
Unknown:never designed For My People, and it took me a while to kind
Unknown:of untangle that.
Unknown:How did you untangle it? What did you need to realize? What
Unknown:did you need to step into?
Unknown:Oh my gosh, yeah, so multiple coaching sessions and really
Unknown:monitoring what my thoughts were around him. Like, oh, because
Unknown:the thought was, oh, yes, the New York Times best selling
Unknown:books. So he's better at this than me. And my coach at one
Unknown:point was like, is that true? Is that like, is that like a true
Unknown:thought that he's better than you? Because he has this New
Unknown:York Times bestselling book? Or has he just had a different
Unknown:opportunity than you? And I'm like, oh, and honestly, like I
Unknown:wrote a lot in my journal like, and sometimes it's just
Unknown:repeating, like, I am the best in the world at creating three
Unknown:word rebellions. Like and then, you know, like when you start
Unknown:just kind of practicing a new thought, you start seeing proof
Unknown:of it in the world. So all of a sudden, you're somebody shares
Unknown:about the book and how finding their three word rebellion and
Unknown:what that meant for their business. And I'm like, Oh,
Unknown:interesting. I get feedback from a client. And they're like, I
Unknown:just had the sales conversation. And it was incredible. I use my
Unknown:three word rebellion. And they were super curious. And they
Unknown:ended up signing up. So it's like, a way I'm seeing like all
Unknown:this proof that I would have shut out before because I didn't
Unknown:have the New York Times bestselling book. And it's, I
Unknown:mean, it's funny, because I mean, it's a couple years
Unknown:removed, but it feels so it feels so silly now, but I know,
Unknown:I'm not the only one. Not at all who compares themselves. Someone
Unknown:else in their industry?
Unknown:Right? Well, and I actually don't know the story brand guy,
Unknown:because I'm not in messaging. But it is. I'm assuming that
Unknown:some of it is not really that you're comparing sometimes
Unknown:people say don't compare your middle to someone else's end.
Unknown:Yeah. And that there's a way that that could be interpreted
Unknown:as somebody who's like, so expert, and so capable, but I
Unknown:don't mean it that way. I mean, like, we have this way, we are
Unknown:comparing, like, I'm writing a book, but my book is written
Unknown:Thank the Lord. But you know, as I was writing the book, and I'm
Unknown:reading my drafts, and I'm like, This is the worst thing I've
Unknown:ever read. Right? Like, yeah, that you've written a book,
Unknown:you've written a few. So you're like, This is the worst. This is
Unknown:not bad. This is the worst. It's really a roller coaster. Maybe
Unknown:yours wasn't like that. But like that for me. But it's
Unknown:interesting, like his book was out there. He had not really
Unknown:like, it's not that he was so much more capable. But he was
Unknown:more just like, all the collateral, all the
Unknown:testimonials, all the word of man, like, had just built up and
Unknown:accumulated for him hadn't accumulated for you yet.
Unknown:Exactly. Exactly. And you know, he was first to market with a
Unknown:messaging book. And I think that's always a big advantage.
Unknown:And it Yeah, and it's like, oh, yeah, he's been at this a lot
Unknown:longer than I have with his story brand framework. He'd
Unknown:been, you know, doing workshops and groups and all that kind of
Unknown:stuff for years before I came along and came up with my
Unknown:framework. So yeah, you do you accumulate a lot, especially
Unknown:when you're first. And you've, like, I love that idea. Like,
Unknown:you've accumulated all of this momentum and this capital around
Unknown:this message around this framework. And so when you have
Unknown:a little upstart coming in, like you can't, you can't compete
Unknown:against that. But then that person for me just kind of looms
Unknown:larger than life.
Unknown:Yeah. Yeah. And it's, I wonder, like, you sort of overcame that
Unknown:you put your stuff out in the world, and you had the courage
Unknown:to let it accumulate some and started to convince yourself,
Unknown:and then you find yourself, maybe you maybe you have an
Unknown:experiences, but I bet you have that. Now you're at your New
Unknown:Edge. And now there's something new that you're going to feel
Unknown:like an imposter about that you're going to be looking at
Unknown:everybody who's further along with more accumulation than you.
Unknown:What other things have you sort of, you know, come up against
Unknown:that are like that, like new edges that sort of put you back
Unknown:in that place?
Unknown:Yeah, that's such a good, good question, as well. And so what
Unknown:it's making me think of is my friend Maggie Patterson, and I
Unknown:have a podcast called duped the dark side of online business
Unknown:where we sit. It's really a consumer advocacy podcast where
Unknown:we kind of break down what we see in them online marketing
Unknown:plays from like, how things are priced to manipulative marketing
Unknown:to messaging tropes, like courses, like all of it and talk
Unknown:about like, how do you figure out if these things are actually
Unknown:right for you? How do you make informed decisions, how do you
Unknown:critically think through these decisions for your business? And
Unknown:it's so interesting because Maggie and I both have this
Unknown:experience a lot, where we do a lot of research and a lot of
Unknown:original analysis for the podcast. And then we see some
Unknown:other online business owner who just takes our work and shares
Unknown:it as if they're, it's their own. And you and I are both
Unknown:academics. So we're like, gonna cite sources man, always sources
Unknown:like right brained and us. And it's always so hard to see it
Unknown:because I like read something. And I'm like, Oh, I said that,
Unknown:like, that's my thing. Yeah. And you're taking credit for it. And
Unknown:that is it. Like, that can be an incredibly hard edge as well,
Unknown:that just kind of like ticks you off. And you're like, I mean,
Unknown:and this is a problem. I feel like universally in online
Unknown:business. Like we actually did an episode about plagiarism
Unknown:podcast, because it is so rampant. There's this idea of
Unknown:just like robbing duplicate in the online world. But if you're
Unknown:the person being robbed and duplicated, it's really hard to
Unknown:see your work coming out of somebody else's mouth, and then
Unknown:people responding to them, like, Oh, you're so smart, saying this
Unknown:thing. And you're like, No, you're not.
Unknown:I bet that gets more and more common, the bigger you get.
Unknown:Yeah, yeah. Well, I, you know, I often talk about like, Simon
Unknown:Sinek. And start with why, and how I see so many people talking
Unknown:about start with why without even mentioning him. Yeah, I
Unknown:mean, and it's cool. Because like, he's moved on from the
Unknown:thing, right? Like he's doing a bigger, better things like he
Unknown:has, like in his company, other people speak about it. So he's
Unknown:totally like, let that message go and take him a life of its
Unknown:own. And I was like, well, good on you. Oh, but for me, I'm
Unknown:always like, Oh, this is really hard.
Unknown:Well, Simon Sinek also has like a massively popular TED talk
Unknown:called Start With Why so if you do write your Google search,
Unknown:even a single Google search, you're going to come up with
Unknown:Simon Sinek. It does happen. I think more pervasively, too.
Unknown:Like I was just on a I don't know, mastermind or something
Unknown:with Bob Berg. You know, the guy who wrote the Go Giver? Oh,
Unknown:yeah, yeah. Yeah. So he was talking about the fact that
Unknown:nobody ever remembers, like, so you're, you and Bob Berg are
Unknown:sharing the same like Cliff of difficulty, that no one ever
Unknown:remembers that it was his book, endless referrals that first
Unknown:coined the know like, and trust all else being equal. People
Unknown:work with you if they know like, and trust you. Oh, yeah. He was
Unknown:just talking about how like, very few people really
Unknown:acknowledge that that was his work. And yet it's pervasive.
Unknown:It's everywhere. No hurt.
Unknown:Oh, yeah. Like, I feel like when I was teaching persuasion, like
Unknown:Robert Cialdini talked about that in his book and mentioned
Unknown:Bob Berg, right. I guess. I have that book sitting on my desk. I
Unknown:can probably go look it up afterwards. Yeah, let's
Unknown:check the check the back notes and notes of it. Yeah. Yeah.
Unknown:That's interesting.
Unknown:Yeah. It's like, the message becomes part of the cultural
Unknown:zeitgeist, and then people don't cite it anymore, because now it
Unknown:feels like common knowledge.
Unknown:Right. Right. Well, common knowledge. Is that right? Yes, I
Unknown:agree with you that that's probably exactly what's
Unknown:happening is they don't even know where they heard it. I
Unknown:mean, think about like, I find this happens a lot, right? Like
Unknown:after, what, nine and a half years of graduate school, like
Unknown:between my masters and my PhD, actually is probably six years
Unknown:but still right in my undergraduate four years. So 10
Unknown:years, right of formal education in cognitive psychology. I know
Unknown:things because I feel like I know them. I don't remember
Unknown:which theory was the first one to really bring that piece up.
Unknown:I'm sorry.
Unknown:That's okay. So yeah, I guess it makes sense that people would
Unknown:struggle with that. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and yet, it's super
Unknown:annoying.
Unknown:It's really hard. And, you know, for us, it's like, the stuff
Unknown:hasn't been around very long. So it's not like, you know, the,
Unknown:you know, it was a book written 10 years ago, or we discussed
Unknown:this. It's a podcast that came out last year, or we're doing
Unknown:some of this original analysis.
Unknown:Yeah. Well, originally Natalie a very different thing than a
Unknown:phrase
Unknown:too. So. Yeah, that's hard. Yeah, it's so that's kind of
Unknown:like an edge that I bump up against and not letting like, I
Unknown:feel like at this point in time, I'm just like, oh, just forget
Unknown:it. I can't, I can't like, deal with these battles. I have my
Unknown:own business to run. And if people actually did their
Unknown:research they would find out who actually said this first, and
Unknown:those are definitely my people. Right, right. And the interim,
Unknown:it's like if we want to make change in the industry, then we
Unknown:need people to be sharing the work. And sometimes you just
Unknown:have to let go of getting credit for it.
Unknown:Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's fast wise, that's wise and hard buys
Unknown:and hard. Two things that commonly go together. Yeah,
Unknown:yeah. So But dude, is not your only podcast. You have two
Unknown:podcasts? Yes. Yeah. So
Unknown:duped is our seasonal podcast that I co host with Maggie. And
Unknown:then I have the rebel uprising podcast, which really focuses on
Unknown:how do you cut through the noise and as
Unknown:to Oh, your microphone? Maybe got something weird is happening
Unknown:is echoey. Ah, hold on.
Unknown:What is going on here?
Unknown:Now you're back. Oh,
Unknown:okay. So weird. I don't know what happened there. Sorry.
Unknown:Okay. No,
Unknown:it's fine. So you were you were saying about your podcast?
Unknown:Oh, yeah. So the rebel uprising podcast is really dedicated to
Unknown:cutting through all of the noise and Bs advice to really help you
Unknown:build a business that stands out and gets noticed. So I talk a
Unknown:lot about marketing. I talk a lot about persuasion, argument
Unknown:building messaging, three word rebellion. Like this month,
Unknown:we're talking. I love to challenge arguments, like
Unknown:something that is widely accepted, like your business
Unknown:needs to be on social media. And yes, the question doesn't
Unknown:really, really need to be on social media to build the
Unknown:business. Are there other options? And there's other
Unknown:options?
Unknown:Nice. Yeah. Well, I am 100% sure that somebody was just like,
Unknown:Wait, what are the other options? So if somebody was
Unknown:like, now dying to talk to you about that, or any of the other
Unknown:things that you've said so far? How could someone find out about
Unknown:you or spend time with you or learn more about your message?
Unknown:Yeah,
Unknown:so you can find out about me at Dr. Michelle maser.com. So
Unknown:that's where my podcast lives. And the podcast is available
Unknown:everywhere. You can also find the book, or get a taster of the
Unknown:book at three word rebellion.com. And right now I
Unknown:am in the middle or beginning to run a community project. And
Unknown:it's very much related to what you and I were talking about
Unknown:kind of that the struggles, the messy middle of success, and
Unknown:that's called, it should have been me a project exploring the
Unknown:messy middle of success. And I'm gathering 20 other business
Unknown:owners to talk about, how do they deal with that comparison,
Unknown:those, you know, ah, I really wish I would have gotten that
Unknown:opportunity that my friend got, like, You're so happy for them.
Unknown:And yet, you're like, oh, it should have been me. So how do
Unknown:we navigate through those and get our important work out into
Unknown:the world? And so that goes for the whole month of March? You
Unknown:can join anytime. And you can do that at Dr. Michelle
Unknown:naser.com/me. It's short on a little pond. Yep, just okay.
Unknown:I'll definitely put it in the show notes also, so they don't
Unknown:even have to remember, they can just click it.
Unknown:Yeah. And so yeah, it'll be short, little actionable podcast
Unknown:episodes that come out every day just to like, give you some
Unknown:insights, inspiration and help you keep going to get your
Unknown:workout into the world.
Unknown:Wow. And are you running that inside? Like a Facebook group?
Unknown:Or are you having a rebellion over on Discord?
Unknown:And so I'm actually doing it on Instagram. So yeah, my, my, the
Unknown:person who's helping me organize it. She's like, well, you could
Unknown:do a Facebook community. And I'm like, I'd rather not. Do not
Unknown:love Facebook. I
Unknown:wish this was a video podcast, just so people can see the face
Unknown:you just made when you were like,
Unknown:I know. Like, yeah, like I struggle with Instagram, too,
Unknown:but not as much as Facebook.
Unknown:Yeah, I can totally see that. Wow. Well, I want to thank you
Unknown:so much for coming on and sharing all this wisdom,
Unknown:everything from the your story and your program and your book.
Unknown:And just the way that you think about things so interesting and
Unknown:rebellious. I want to thank you so much for being on the
Unknown:podcast. I'm glad
Unknown:to be here. Thank you for having me. Yeah. My pleasure.
Unknown:Thank you for joining me today on the unleashing your great
Unknown:work podcast. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe and
Unknown:leave a five star review. And hey, don't forget to check out
Unknown:the aligned tank journal. You need support to get started.
Unknown:Stay at it and unleash your great work out into the world.
