What Works for Great Work With Tara McMullin | UYGW053

glowing gold light at the end of the tunnel is being satisfied with yourself and your work and your life at the end of every day.

Welcome to unleashing your great work, a podcast about doing the work that matters the most to you. I'm your host, Dr. Amanda Crowell, a cognitive psychologist, coach, author of the book, great work and the creator of the great work of journals. Every week on this podcast, we're here asking the big questions. What is your great work? How do you find it? And why does it matter? Whether we do it? What does it actually take to do more of your great work without sacrificing everything else? And how does the world change when more people are doing more of the work that matters the most to them? Stay tuned for answers to these questions, and so much more.

Welcome, everybody to unleashing your great work. I could not be more excited today to talk to Tara McMullinn. She's a writer, a podcaster and a producer. And for over 13 years, she studied small business owners how they live, how they work, what influences them and what they hope for the future. She's the author of what works a comprehensive framework to change the way we approach goal setting. The book challenges the lessons we've learned about goals and productivity through culture, and proposes a radical shift, structuring our lives around practice, rather than achievement. She's the host of what works a podcast about navigating the 21st century economy with your humanity intact. And she is the co founder of Yellow House Media boutique podcast production company. Welcome to the podcast, Tara.

Well, thank you so much for having me, Amanda, I'm thrilled to be here.

Thrilled I too, am thrilled. So I have so many questions for you that I have to sort of contain myself by starting with where we always start, tell us a little bit about your great work.

Yeah, so my great work, it seems always revolves around the question, why do we do what we do? And that is a question that has really fascinated me, since I think I was a little little kid. And it's, it has definitely shaped my work in many different ways over the years, it's what led me to study religion in college, it's what led me to flooring sort of the the maker and design sphere, when I was first getting started. It's what led me to thinking deeply about marketing and business and entrepreneurship. And now it's really kind of inspiring me to think about sort of the future of work, and how we can better know ourselves within the future of work, which is a large part of, of what the book is about. And so the book really revolves around to this question of why do we do the things that we do? Why do we believe the things that we believe and how are those two things connected? So that's kind of how I summarize what my great work is.

I like it. So I you know, I got my hands on the book, which I can't be more excited about. And anybody out there who's thinking, Should I buy that book? Yes, yes, the answer is you should buy that book. It's, it's really good. But so I kind of know what you mean by why do we do what we do? Right? But how would you summarize the sort of perplexing situation we find ourselves in, that you sort of explore in the book, I don't want to summarize it for you, because I'm sure you'll do a much better job.

Well, we'll see about that. But so the perplexing nature of it is that different humans do different things for different reasons, right? And part of what fascinates me about this, and part of what makes it such a driving question in my life is what I have recently learned is my autism. And so I think through the world in a different way than a lot of people think through the world and what a lot of that means it's making sense of how other people are behaving, because it largely doesn't make sense to me, right? Or at least it doesn't make sense to me on that sort of just instinctual level that it does for many other people whose neurology kind of lends itself more to those two slightly easier social situations. Right. So, you know, that's, that's sort of always an at the ground level of how I'm approaching things. But when it comes to the book, specifically, what I'm really what I was really interested in exploring was how so many of us relate to the idea of success, achievement, you know, moving up the ladder in different ways, I am in anxious chronic overachiever. I've never, you know, seen a merit badge that I didn't want to earn or a trophy that I didn't want to win, right? Yep, I'm that kind of overachiever. And I know a lot of other people who are as well. But I also know a lot of other people who just think, oh, that sounds like a terrible way to live, like my husband. Totally, is not that kind of person. And of course, there's a whole spectrum of people in between as well. But I'm really interested in sort of what makes that spectrum of personalities, spectrum of character spectrum of reaction to the world, right? Possible. And what are all the different sort of cultural inputs, historical inputs, religious inputs, spiritual inputs that we have coming in, that then express themselves in so many different ways? And so what the heart of the book really is, is examining that from the perspective of why do we value what we value in terms of goals, planning, success, achievement, productivity? And how does that appear in different ways in our behavior? And is that behavior? And are those beliefs really serving us? And if not, how can we reconstruct a, a system for our lives as scaffolding for our work so that we can operate in systems that serve us rather than just sort of defaulting to the inputs that we have?

Yeah, so I like that a lot. And I think what's interesting about it, to me is sort of you have this ladder climbing this ladder, which is a common metaphor, right? Like a corporate ladder, like looking for more always seeking more more direct reports, more money, more prestige, more decision making power. And using that as like a way to sort of establish this default way that it's, it's this pursuit of more, and if you're not in pursuit of more than you're doing it wrong, right. Even the way we talk about the economy is it's like we're we're always moving for greater GDP. And if we have to have a recession, to self correct, and whatever, I guess we can live with that for a year or two. And then it's back on the path for more and more and more. And what's interesting is, even the people who aren't on the path, right, are in relationship with that they're rejecting that, because that's the organizing principle that our lives are built on. If we sort of sit in this default space, which the vast majority of us do, I was recently doing a keynote at the University of Toledo. And we were talking about how it might have felt to them all through college or no, sorry, all through high school, that there was only one path, and everyone was on it. And now that you're here, they were starting, and they were like freshmen. Like you actually, it's can be very overwhelming when you realize actually, all y'all adults are just making it up as you go along. And there is no path, except that we then sort of close our eyes and pray for home and stay on the more and more and more path. So but what's the alternative? Like? How can you create in your own life and in your own spheres? Like what can you create for yourself? If you reject that paradigm? If you leave the table, as it were?

Yeah, well, so first off, I think that it's it's important to recognize that the striving for more, more more, seems to benefit us, right? It seems to meet our needs. Help us feel like we have a purpose that we feel like we're on a mission feel like all these things that are psychologically satisfying to us or should be that our needs meeting all that good stuff. However, we also know that people are lonely. They're, they're anxious, they're stressed out. And they're in debt. Right? Yeah. So really, what happens in this process of striving for more and more and more and more and more is that the system is turning us into a particular type of consumer. Right? And within that, that paradigm of consumption, it is hard to feel satisfied with what you have and satisfied with what's around you and the people that are around you. And that's very deliberate. Right? That's what keeps the system going. That's what Yeah, use that GDP growth, right. I mean, fundamentally that rise, kind of where that goes. So in terms of what alternatives there are, I think that awareness is really key, we realize that our striving is not for the benefit of us, but it's for the benefit of others, then we can say, Okay, well, what? What might it look like? If I worked in a way that benefited me? What would it look like if I if I lived in a way that benefited me? What if instead of my behaviors, my choices being directed by outside forces, right, recognize that those outside forces were there that they are real, that they make things difficult in a lot of ways? But what do I want within this system? Where do I want to explore within this system? And within that, then how can I meet my needs, and be curious and explore and pursue growth in the way I want to be curious and explore and pursue growth. And so the main sort of the crux of the book that I present as an alternative is this idea of valuing practice over achievement. Achievement is super future focused, right? It's always very outcome oriented, you're thinking about what's the next step. And the next step. And the next step, it very much is this striving for more kind of paradigm. And that's the structure in which we live our lives or as you, as you very astutely pointed out, it's the the structure that we reject, and therefore are in relationship with all right. And so we need the alternative. And to me, the this alternative is practice and practices is very much about presence, it's an it's very much about looking at the choices that you have right now in front of you and choosing the way you want to be in the world that is and what the choices that you actually have. And it's an opportunity to grow. With each action that you take or to explore with each action that you take, as opposed to feeling like you don't grow, you don't get to the next place until that next achievement. And so that practice, the thinking in terms of practice, and recognizing the power of habit and routine and process creates an environment in which we can be much more satisfied, right? We can, we can actually recognize, oh, this is what I have, that maybe this is what I don't have, these are the choices that I have. These are the choices I don't have. And from that place, it's less about hurtling yourself into the future, which is always always always going to have that kind of consumptive motivation behind it. And instead really easing into something that's more intentional, more aware, and more present.

Yeah, absolutely. So you mentioned in your story at the beginning that this was sort of your own experience was as a as a high achiever as it were. So have you like is, is this your story overall? Like, are you reflecting your own journey in this book from future focused, always focused on like, more, more more into something more present? Like, what's your story?

Yeah. And so my story is woven throughout the whole book, it's very much a personal narrative, as well as research and observation of hundreds of high achieving entrepreneurs and workers over the years. But my story really is starting from this place of feeling like I always needed to be chasing that next goal. That's, you know, if straight A's were possible, then I was going to get straight A's if get first chair trombone, and the orchestra was possible that I was going to get first chair trombone. If being the starting pitcher was possible, I was going to be the starting pitcher, like it's, you know, from the earliest age, these were the things that I defined myself by, so Why

were those the things that you defined yourself by?

Because anything that felt possible for me to succeed at? I had to like, I was, let me back up, I would only pursue things that I felt like I could achieve a certain level at and that certain level being the highest level, or the highest level, you know, at least in my local area, or whatever it might be. And so, things like music, grades A sports to a degree, those were things that had always come easily to me, they were things that I enjoyed doing. But they were also things where I got a lot of praise, I got a lot of validation for those things. And so even before I started to think about my life in terms of how much revenue I could generate, or how you know, prestigious this award or that award might be, I was starting to think in terms of an identity around those accolades. And that that validation of No, you are useful, you do belong here, or you're you are worthy of being here. Because those are some of the big fears and questions that really kind of plagued my life. So that's kind of where I was starting from in college, it was the same thing. After college, even though I had just gone through, like, deep depression, deep burnout. As soon as I started to think about, okay, where do I go from here? You know, I was working at a retail job. And I thought, well, I'll we'll all work, work my way up the ladder here, right? Like, was very just whatever I was doing, I could do the next level higher, and then the next level higher than next level higher. And they told me, Oh, yeah, go ahead.

Well, I just want to name that. But I have read, I only got your book today. But I have read the first chapter. So like, I sort of know what the punch line here is. But it feels very much like, as you're like, pivoting around yourself and looking out to the next thing. It's like you're out running something, you know, like, what were you out running? Your belief almost has to be your belief about yourself some belief about yourself that you just can't stand sitting with or experiencing or grappling with or something because what you know, because it sounds really like even when you're describing it feels very forward like, out running feeling. Yeah,

I mean, I think the thing that I was running from was the fear of not being worthy, not being good enough, not being not not being what I needed to be to kind of survive,

to be allowed to exist in the

world to be allowed to be

viewed. Right? And yes, exactly. And can we just talk about the fact for a second, that all of school is set up to create that outcome? Right, like, why would we have a first trombone, right? Why would we talk about the valedictorian from the day that you start? Ninth grade? Why is every, like, test shown for like, who got the top grades? Like, there's something so maniacal about this idea that children are humans at all, are in competition with each other just to exist, just to be valued when valuing and belonging and existing and being a part of our of our tribe in our pack? Is what we require to survive? Like, it's very manipulative when you really start to see it?

Yeah, yeah. And it's, like I said earlier, it kind of feeds this need this economic and political need for people to fit into society in different places. And I think it should be said that this is something that is particular to Western capitalist society, it is rooted in white supremacy, it's rooted in the White Man's Burden. It's rooted in colonialism, and that there have been many more systems where people don't rank each other where they don't compete with each other where it's not this constant battle for who's better than the other guy. Right. But our culture is embedded with this deep fear of inadequacy, because we know that you have to compete at a certain level to have any sense of comfort in your life at all. And I think that's that's only becoming even more true today. I mean, yes, in so many ways, our quality of life obviously is better than it was 100 years ago, certainly 200 years ago, and there are fewer ways to make a middle class living with benefits and some paid time off. Then there has been in the last 100 years right So that's, that really just feeds this the sort of the cultural infrastructure with a real sense of precarity. Right. So we do get these lessons from school from the earliest age, who's better, you know, is Peter better than John is Rose better than Sarah. But that's also fueled by a very real need that we have, which is to survive in

our planet. So you're saying people perceive in their adult lives that they have to be the best in order to get the jobs to get the promotions, and they turn around and then convey that cultural information to children? Yes, the best way they know how, and tell them how smart they are, and how right which is. Yeah, go ahead.

And I'm not a mute. I do the same thing with my kid. Right. I try really hard not to.

It's hard. It's really,

but you know, she's, they

love to hear it.

Yeah. And she's been anxious about getting into college since she was 10. Like, I know, it's like, I'm glad you're thinking about this on one hand. Other hand, it's like, let's talk about something else.

Yeah. Right. What else should we talk about?

That's an excellent question. I think what else we should talk about is, well, there's a couple of different levels. There's sort of like the individual level, what should we talk about, in terms of satisfying our own needs are our own curiosities? And then what should we talk about in terms of a more collective approach to how we make change? And I think those two things are really important to do together. So from an individual perspective, I think that we need to be looking at the ways in which our values are hijacked on a regular basis. And so what I mean by that is that, you know, we exist in these different systems that want to turn everything into a quantitative measurement, right? Whether it's existing on Twitter and seeing your likes, or retweets or follower count go up or down, there's that. There's also you know, performance management at work, there are the productivity apps that we use, there are the fitness trackers that we wear, right, everything becomes quantified. And once everything becomes quantified, then nuanced goes out the window, complexity goes out the window, and you know how to play that particular game. And when you're playing the game, you're not thinking critically about whether the rules of the game or the landscape of the game is something that you actually want to be playing in. So that's always the first place I start is like, Where can we notice the ways in which the game has taken what we think we want, what we think we value what we think the future could look like for us, and changed, it manipulated it to meet its needs, even just being aware of it, making no other changes, but even just being aware of it, recognize it, recognizing it, I think it's hugely empowering.

So let me just pause here for a second because I feel like an example here would be helpful, because I'm 100% tracking. And I think, you know, it might feel like one of these things we not along to but really have we like, do we really know what we're saying? So what's an example? Like, let's say that, you know, you think you want the new Tesla and the corner office, right? So let's assume that this person has had their values hijacked. What did they actually want? How did this happen? Like, can you unpack that a little bit for us?

Yeah, I mean, in terms of those two examples, the Tesla is all about the marketing, right? And so marketing hydraulics values very, very easily. It says, you want to be on the cutting edge. It says you want to be environmentally savvy, it says you want to be seen as having this particular status symbol, right. And those things may be rooted in real values. Obviously, sustainability is a real value that many people hold. Being a sort of a first mover on technology is an identity that a lot of people hold I hold that I and it's an important one to me, I love being associated with with understanding technology. However, consuming a Tesla does not make you Any one of those things, right? It is an object that is used to stand in for those identities and those values. And so and that's what marketing largely does, right? The same thing is true of the corner office, it's just that the marketing looks like career training. It looks like meetings with your HR person, it looks like meetings with your boss. And the same stories and messages. Take your value for, for mastery, maybe, or just even six songs broadly belonging Exactly. And it hijacks that to say, Well, if you do this, this, this and this, and you make this much money for the company, and you reduce cost by this much, then you're you'll eventually get into that C suite. Right. And so that's what the marketing looks like on that side. But another example that I like to use with this is fitness tracking.

Yeah, yeah. They think to me about it. Yeah, so hate those trackers.

So this is a place where I'm so torn, because I love my tracker. And I also know how bad it can be for me. So I've worn an Apple Watch since the end of 2016. And at the end of 2016, I was a pretty sedentary human being. Since then, I've run multiple five K's a couple half marathons, I'm training for a 50k right now. So I like

a lot. Okay, that's lots and lots of K. It's

lots and lots of kids. Yeah. So that's, that's a, that's a big change in my life. And, you know, my Apple Watch has, has been there for all of that it's helped me manage that change. And there are times when it's led to really destructive behavior as well. So early on, right, when you're making progress on something like becoming a runner, having that motivation of a goal that is kind of regularly increasing and and seeing your baseline improve a little bit by little bit by little bit over months and months, is hugely helpful for a lot of people certainly for me, right? When when it taps you on the wrist and says, Hey, you're doing great today, or like that was your longest run ever. That is amazing, right? So motivated. But here's what happens. So a couple of years ago, pre COVID, I was training for a marathon, which I did not run because of COVID. But so I was training for a marathon. And that meant that my watch was sort of picking up on my baseline activity getting higher and higher and higher, right? Because you kind of trained over 16 weeks or longer increasing your mileage every week. And so my watch is like, cool. You ran 20 Miles last week, see if you can run 22 This week or you collect it, you know, you you ran this speed? That's right. So it measures that baseline, and then it keeps pushing you can you go a little higher, can you go a little higher? And at some point that is not healthy? No anymore? Yes. Right. And so there there have been times right, where I'm averaging three hours of exercise a day, and it's like, Could you do three and a half? No, chirk stop it. But what it what it's doing there is Hijacking My ability to listen to my own body, my ability to manage my own training, it's inserting a level of doubt when I have a needed rest day or a D load week. And that is enough to just bubble up that little bit of anxiety that you're like, Oh, am I am I is it okay, that I'm like following my program and taking a day off? And that's exactly what happens in our lives, too.

Yeah. Well, I think it's a great example. And I also think like it like it sort of underlines what seems to be the solution that you found, which is like you, how can you anchor into your own values, examine the systems around you figure out who you are, and then view things appropriately? Because the Apple Watch is a tool, right? Right. It's just coded to add 10 for 3% a day or whatever it is, right? It's just following it's coding. And coding is neutral, right? But which is questionable, but let's just That's it for now. Pretend that coding is neutral, and that the tools that we choose, are, are good insofar as we are actually choosing them. And we're not my prom with the Apple Watch It is that it chose me, I too have worn an Apple Watch since 2016. And I was like, stop it for at least three years, it was like, it's time to stand up and like you don't get to decide for me when I'm going to stand up. And I could not figure out how to turn it off. I like it really almost broke me. It was like a whole thing. But my husband at the time was like, Well, no, not my husband at the time, my husband, who is still the same husband common time that this back end was like, it's just a watch, like, why are you letting it bother you like that? And I was like, I really did stop and think like, why am I I am the one letting it harass me, instead of just acknowledging its neutral programming. And I think that what you're pointing to really, is that we have so much default programming from an entire lifetime of being told that we are not enough it is not like, and I'm not saying that from some kind of like, poor me with my tiny little like violin, I'm saying like our programming from school and corporate America, you're not. You don't have enough house, you don't have enough car, you don't have enough money. You don't you should get that credit card. So you can buy the things like the programming in the marketing, the programming in the school curriculum, the whole thing is designed to create a consumption

bot. Right? This is what you're saying.

And if you haven't deprogrammed most of that, then your Apple Watch harasses you. If you have deprogrammed it, then your Apple Watch goes back to being a tool, which is like a lot to ask of the regular person in order to like feel good about themselves.

It is it is but yeah, I mean, you have hit the nail on the head coding programming is one of the metaphors that I use in the book. And I think one of the ways I talk about it is like, if you imagine that you are an iPhone, with your particular values, and your particular hardware and your particular, you know, all of the things that are particular your iPhone, it's like we're iPhones running Android systems, right? The the system isn't actually made for the device that Right. Right, and, and it doesn't work, right. But we keep trying. We keep powering the thing up. We keep trying to make calls. It's like why isn't this working? Why do I feel so bad? Yeah, well, it's because you're running the wrong system. Or system, you're running someone else's sin Yeah, competing system. And that's a big problem. Obviously, we need to run our own system. And so yes to the deprogramming, I also turn to the notifications off on my watch this year. And I've always had most of the notifications off, but I turned the notifications off. And I still will feel driven by closing my rings, many more.

Rings. I gotta go for a walk around the block. I'll be right back.

Yep. At the end of the night. I don't get those taps on the wrist. That makes me feel bad anymore. Because I had I had the exact same thing. And if we think about all of the the ways in the rest of the world, that we get tapped on the wrist to make us feel bad about some right

to direct our but to help us improve. Yeah, wouldn't wouldn't you like to respond to Google? Would you like to respond to this email? You got five days ago? No. I wanted to respond to jerk. I feel like, yeah, I feel like so much of what you're saying is as like spot on. And it's it was at the core of my book, too, which is called Great work. And it's all about like, how can we kind of, it's almost like, this pretend thing that you can't really do like, I feel like you have described how do we deprogram like, how do we actually step by step just get to Basecamp one where it's like, I am a human being, I am good. I am lovable. And I am here. Why are we here? Why are we on this planet actually, right to love each other, to make cool things together, to maybe care for our planet and like, I know, live in synergy and or just repair it enough so that we don't like get thrown away by our planet, right. You know, like collectivism, like we're here to build things together to have fun together to enjoy the amazingness that happens when humans come together and try to accomplish things. And so if that's what we're trying to do, I called all of that great work, right? Like artistic, creative, scientific parenting, like whatever it is that calls to you from the inside. If you can listen to that voice, sometimes without you can sort of find your way into this little world. Um, hold come out the other side blown away by what everybody else is still over there robotic about, you know, like, if you're done with your work, I'll do something else. I feel like I'm whispering from the, you know, from the dark side, turn off your computer and I feel like you're doing the same thing. So what would you say? You talked about it as practice instead of accomplishment. But just unpack that a little bit for us. So that we can kind of know where we're headed. When we buy your book and deprogram ourselves like, what are we really heading towards? What's the the glowing gold light at the end of the tunnel?

Yeah, I would say the glowing gold light at the end of the tunnel is being satisfied with yourself and your work and your life at the end of every day. I mean, why

wait to the end of your life, where you're hoping you maybe had five years to travel after you? Retirement? Which I'm gonna go ahead and put in air quotes? Because? I don't know. I don't think that's really guaranteed anymore. No. Yeah. So at the end of every day, I like that continue.

Yeah. And satisfaction. Being satisfied does not mean having fun all the time. It doesn't care getting to do whatever you want to do. Right? We don't live in that world where, and I don't know that most of us would even want to live in a world. I think most of us love a challenge. We like to figure out problems. What we don't like is to feel like we are constantly out of fuel. Right? And so to me, satisfaction is what comes when we have the resources to do what what needs to be done and what we want to do in a day, or an hour or in a week or in a month or a year, right. And so much of everything we've talked about so far really is designed to keep us running on fumes. Yeah, right. Productivity guidance designed to keep us running on fumes, all of the stuff about, you know, networking promotions, do this do that do. It's all about keeping us running on fumes. Because we're running on fumes, we're way more likely to buy stuff, we're way less likely to make to quote unquote, trouble at work and maybe start to unionize our shop or whatever it might be asked for a raise. And so what what will it take for us to say, at the end of the day, I am not running on fumes, I feel satisfied by what I've done. And I feel like I'm ready to do it again tomorrow. That's what I'm looking for from my life. That's what I want for everyone, recognizing that we are all coming to what I think is sort of the work of being a human in this world. It's a different bucket of resources, a different capacity for all of that and different needs that need to be met. Right. And so, you know, obviously some of us have a leg up on that some of us have major headwinds slowing us down, right. But I do believe that if we can shift the way we are perceiving the how we move through the world and how we're showing up and proceed changing how we perceive even the idea of what do we say yes to what do we say no to Yeah, how do I change my my attitude or my relationship to this thing, or the other thing, that everyone can achieve some level of that satisfaction, some knowing that our resources are well spent on what we do during the day? It might be harder for some than others, obviously. But I do think that it is it's possible. And that I think we owe it to each other to start figuring that out.

Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree with that. Well, honestly, I could talk to you about this for the next 16 years. But we have to keep this podcast relatively short. So I would love for people to hear a little bit about you, because you are multifaceted from what I can tell you. This book just came out. And what works. So obviously we want to buy that book, but how can people get to know you or work with you? Or have you come speak or whatever it is you're doing?

Yeah, so I produce a podcast every week called what works. The book podcast is probably the best way to get to know me. All of the episodes that I put out this year kind of touch on themes from the book, but I don't think that there's they're not like there's not a ton of overlap. So If you liked the book, or you like what I've talked about today, the podcast is a great place to go. I also released the podcast as a newsletter, so has written articles and essays every week. And you can find that at explorer, what works.com/weekly. The book? Yep. And then the other way that I work with people is as a Podcast Producer, with my husband over at Yellow House Media. And we're all about helping people with something to say or questions to ask produce standout podcasts. So that's the that's the bulk of my work.

Love it. And we will put all of those links for sure. Also, in podcast show notes, so that they don't have to remember they can just click, I want to thank you so very much for your time today. I really, really enjoyed talking to you. I can't wait to read the rest of your book, and listen to your podcast.

Thanks, Amanda.