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Yes, today we have the pleasure of listening to and talking with Penn Street who survived being bitten twice by a rattlesnake when she was nine and a half. Ok, you may say. So she was bitten. A little antivenom should take care of that. Not in Penn’s case. She had an incredibly severe reaction to the medications and acquired Stevens-Johnson Syndrome (SJS). This syndrome did a lot of damage to Penn’s body including causing her blindness. She decided not to let SJS nor anything else stop her. Was it also due to her seven older brothers? Penn will tell us. After college Penn discovered a talent for sales when she married her husband and joined him in promoting his professional photography business. Today, Penn Street has a podcast entitled “Aftersight” which she operates as part of what she does with the Audio Information Network of Colorado. Our conversation by any standard this time is inspiring and very enjoyable. I hope you like it. About the Guest: Penn Street lost most of her eyesight at age nine from Stevens-Johnson Syndrome (SJS) after being bit by a rattlesnake. SJS is a rare Adverse Drug Reaction that attacks the body by burning it alive from the inside out. 75% of Penn’s body was covered by second-and third-degree burns. All the soft tissue is compromised. Her parents were told if she survived, she would be deaf, blind, cognitively damaged, remain of a feeding tube for life, and would not be able to breathe on her own. Thanks to prayer and Penn’s tomboy spirit she did not only survive, but she exceeded all medical expectations. Penn’s vision, hearing, and major organs were compromised, but that did not slow Penn down for long. Growing up Penn discovered that accessibility was the key to her community, career, and the possibility of living the life she wanted. Penn sought out solutions to her new life with low vision, hearing loss, and chronic pain by learning to navigate life differently than before. Penn was a bright student a held a GPA hovering around 4.0 through her entire education. Penn set her sights on becoming an advocate for people with disabilities. However, life happens, and opportunities arise unexpectedly. Penn met her husband, Moses Street a professional nationally known photographer. Penn became the Studio Gallery Manager where she found the skill of managing a team and sales a strength, she did not know she had. After decades of a lucrative run with the studio and gallery Penn was pulled back into her desire to work with people with disabilities. For the past 15 years Penn has worked at several non-profits as a leader on their development and outreach teams. All the organizations have a focus on low vision and blindness. Currently Penn is the Development and Outreach Director for Audio Information Network of Colorado. Penn sits on several boards and commissions and is a sought-after public speaker. In the winter you can find Penn on the alpine slopes of Colorado’s mountains searching for the best powder and the steepest runs. In the summer Penn enjoys camping, hiking, and paddleboarding. Ways to connect with Travis: You can contact Penn Street through Audio Information Network of Colorado’s website www.aincolorado.org. Follow Penn Street on social media – Instagram https://www.instagram.com/the_blind_chick/ Facebook https://www.facebook.com/penn.street YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@TheBlindChick TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@theblindchicklife About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! 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Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi there once again, here it is another day and it's time for unstoppable mindset. We have a wonderful guest today I got to meet a couple of months ago. Her name is Penn Street Penn is short for Penny. But we're going to call her pen because that's what she seems to like. And she hasn't hit me or anyone else yet for calling her Penn. And she seems to be pretty used to it. So we'll stick with pen. And she has an interesting and I think a great story to tell and we'll get to all of that. But Penn, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. Penn Street ** 01:55 Thanks, Michael. I really appreciate it. Michael Hingson ** 01:59 So, as we were talking about just before we started, you are one daughter among six or seven other boys, right? Penn Street ** 02:09 Actually, there's three girls and the other three Michael Hingson ** 02:12 girls. Oh my gosh, but you were the first girl. Penn Street ** 02:14 No, I was the second. So yeah, my parents had two boys. And then they had a girl and they really, really, really wanted another girl. So they had five more boys. And then I was born. And so story tells us says that my mom looked at me and said I was her her lucky shiny Penny. So she wanted to name me Penny. And then so that's the second girl. And then my little sister almost three years later came and was a complete surprise because my mom thought and dad thought I was it. But my little sister came along which I was very thankful for. Because imagine a little girl with seven older brothers it was, you know, it was unfair at times Michael Hingson ** 03:01 will add an older sister. Yeah. But Penn Street ** 03:03 she was so much older than me. It felt like, you know, she was my babysitter which she sort of was. Michael Hingson ** 03:11 So what was your younger sister's name? Penn Street ** 03:15 Sorry, Ed. She was actually named after my oldest brother's girlfriend at the time. Because he found out my mom was pregnant and you know, his first girlfriend. He thought it would be really cool to say, you know, oh, my mom, you know really likes you. She's going to name the baby after you. And my mom really didn't have another girl's name. So Sherry is out there somewhere. My little sister actually was named after you. Michael Hingson ** 03:46 Wow. Yeah. So older brother and Sherry didn't stay together. Penn Street ** 03:52 Not I doubt if I don't know how long they are teenagers who know? Michael Hingson ** 03:57 Yeah, yeah. Well, there is that. Well, so you you've had, needless to say, an interesting life, which, which we'll talk about as much as you want. But you grew up like any kid and then went to school, I guess. And then did all those things that kids do. But then things changed for you at the age of nine. Penn Street ** 04:20 Yes, they did. I was bit by a western diamondback rattlesnake. And actually a bit me twice and then a bit my little sister sherry. Oh my gosh. But I took the bulk of the venom, which was a good thing because she was smaller than me. So but yeah, where Michael Hingson ** 04:40 were you guys where you weren't supposed to be? Penn Street ** 04:43 That is another story. But we were we were in the woods of Arkansas. And I actually Arkansas has several super venomous snakes, which are definitely not my my favorite animals but but yeah, it was They gave me you know, anti venom, they gave me all the right, you know medication to save my life. But in doing so it triggered a syndrome called Stevens Johnson Syndrome, which was named after the two doctors that came up with the name Stevenson Johnson. And it's a severe, you know, adverse drug reaction. And at that time, the fatality rates for children was 75%. And you're treated in a burn unit, just as if you've been in a fire because your body the way it reacts to the drugs is it burns from the inside out. So all of my organs were affected. 75% of my body was covered in second, third degree burns. So you can imagine in a fire, all the soft tissue was compromised. And, of course, your eyes are nothing but soft tissue. So the eyes were definitely the obvious. But, but yeah, they the I was a tomboy, being with seven older brothers, I had to be strong, right, I never would have survived those first nine years, if I wasn't a tomboy, and I, I didn't understand what was happening. But you know, you're a kid, you just kind of this is what's happening today, and I'll get through it, and then tomorrow will be better. And, you know, every day that I survived, you know, the chances of me sir, you know, living increased, and then I, you know, I really did, especially at that time, because I didn't know a lot about Stevens Johnson Syndrome, they really thought that I would be totally blind, deaf, you know, my fever was above 103 for many, many days. So they thought that I would be cognitively impaired, I'd be on a feeding tube, I would never be able to breathe on my own all those things. But, you know, as I as I fought they, you know, unchecked those boxes, from my future. And, and yes, you know, everything is compromised, I, you know, obviously, my vision is compromised, and hearing is compromised, those kinds of things. But really, I don't look at those things as a disability. To me, my disability is my fire doesn't like to keep up with my lifestyle that I like to do my love. So I like to climb mountains, and you know, downhill ski, and I like to do all these things that require a good health. So my heart's not very happy with me most of the time, but neither on my lungs, but it's, it's my life. It's, I'm, I appreciate every single day that I have. And just like when I was a kid, I look at Oh, today is today, and tomorrow will be better. And it always is. Michael Hingson ** 07:55 I bet however, that your older brothers were supportive. Penn Street ** 08:00 They were, I think that they were threatened with their lives that when I did finally get to come home, that they were supposed to treat me different, you know, don't tease her Don't roughhouse with her. She's very fragile. And I was I was extremely fragile, but, but behind the scenes, sort of mom and dad weren't there, you know, they, they, they didn't treat me exactly like they did before. But I did appreciate more than they will ever know, you know, those, those big brother, you know, kind of pushes and shoves and calling me a dork and stuff like that, because it made me feel like me again, ya know, because I didn't look like me anymore. You know, imagine a burn, you know, burn victim. And, you know, I didn't move around quite as fast, especially in the beginning until I, you know, had those skills, you know, the cane skills and, you know, those independent skills that I had to learn, but that they, you know, it was what it was and my little sister and I became super close. Actually, probably closer than we were before, because I was forced to be inside a lot more and unlike me being the tomboy, she was the little princess and she loved playing with dolls and wearing pink and all those kinds of things. And I think she really liked having me sort of forced into being inside more and so we got to know each other more and you know, she she still is, you know, my absolute closest friend on the planet. Michael Hingson ** 09:47 Now, were you from Arkansas originally? Penn Street ** 09:50 Yes. But I was 12 it became apparent that in Arkansas, yes, they had a great Children's Hospital's state of the art that saved my life. But they really didn't have a lot of other resources and services. After that initial, you know, hospitalization and so my parents found out about the Children's Hospital in Denver, Colorado, and it was definitely at that time, you know, the leader in working with children and illnesses and all those kinds of things. And then also just resources, you know, they didn't really have blind teachers. There was blindness was looked at very differently in Arkansas than, than it was in Colorado. And there weren't a lot of teachers and resources and services, and my parents knew that I was going to need those. So they packed us up and moved us to Colorado, which I'm very thankful I love Colorado. And so I was given a lot, a lot better care here, and definitely a better education. Michael Hingson ** 11:01 So what do your parents do for a living? Penn Street ** 11:04 So they're both gone now. But my father was a mill, right. And he worked for a union. So he worked at power plants, all across the country had a very specific skill set. And my mom, when we were young, she was a stay at home mom with 10 kids, it's hard to get a baby's that on. But as we got older, she actually went into health care and worked with seniors. And, you know, with a health care provider for seniors so so kind of runs on my family the work that I do, I think it might lead. Michael Hingson ** 11:42 Well, you certainly did come out of it, and certainly your tomboy attitude. Saying it facetiously or not certainly had to help, because you you had to survive, and you learned how to be a survivor. And certainly Stevens Johnson made you into a survivor, which, which isn't important. And that, of course, is a characteristic and a trait that is second to none that you certainly don't want to live without. Penn Street ** 12:16 That's true. That's true. I really do love my life. I it always angers me when people feel sorry for me, or, or like they say, Oh, I'm sorry. I'm like, Don't be sorry. Love my life. I, you know, I do wish my heart work better. And I do whereas work, you know, I wish my lungs worked better. But it's, besides those things, like I didn't even those things, you know, it's it is what it is? It is what it is. Yeah. And they're part of who I am. And I, I like who I am. And you know, not that I don't want I love learning and growing and I love learning different ways to approach situations and I'm always a sponge when I'm around new cultures and things like that. So it's not like this is it? I'm happy with the way I am. I'm gonna stay right here. Because I'm not. I have a lot more to learn and and to experience of this world. But, but there is nothing to be sorry about or, you know, Michael Hingson ** 13:20 well, when you go into kind of an overexertion mode, if you will, what what is your heart do? What, what how do you notice it? Does it just yell at you and go slow down or? No? Penn Street ** 13:31 Well here, I actually, actually right now I have a pretty crazy heart monitor on a week ago. Actually, a week ago last night, I ended up in the emergency room and Durango, Colorado because my heart decided it didn't really want to work anymore. And it goes from zero, you know, 100 to zero. So I was out hiking that weekend, I had been paddleboarding and camping in the mountains of Colorado and I was over a friend's house in Durango, Colorado, and we're about to have dinner and sitting on the couch and totally blacked out and woke up in the, you know, in the ambulance, which, unfortunately is not abnormal for me. But so we're gonna see what's going on right now. There's definitely an infection going on. And they don't know what that is. But whatever it needs to happen to get me back outside. thoughts and prayers are with you. Thank you. Thank you. Michael Hingson ** 14:34 Well, it's it's interesting. And you're right, we all we all have gifts. We all have challenges. Yeah. And it's it's like anything, as I tell people talking about September 11. We couldn't prevent it. And I'm not convinced that even with the September 11 Report, I'm not seeing enough evidence to say that we could have foreseen it happening. But the issue is Since that had happened, the issue is how we deal with it. And you're facing the same sort of thing. Every day, excuse me every day as we all are, yeah, we, we have challenges. And the issue is we either deal with them and we grow and become better or not. And that's our that's our choice. Yeah, Penn Street ** 15:19 absolutely. You know, people, even right now, they're like, Oh, you have to rest you have to, and I am resting. This one was pretty scary. And it was still so recent. But I'm like, you know, if my heart wants to blow out, or my lungs want to keep up, I'd rather be doing that standing on top of a mountain or, you know, rafting a river or, you know, doing something that I love, and instead of sitting on a couch, you know, it's or it but that's the way I am. I'm not saying that's the correct way, you know, other people may totally disagree with me. But it's, it's my life. And that's the way I want to live it and Michael Hingson ** 16:02 well, you can decide when you want to not be so, so active on any given day. That's your choice. Penn Street ** 16:11 Absolutely. All of us have that choice, though. Michael Hingson ** 16:15 Absolutely. Absolutely. We all have that choice. So you but you How did school go for you after that? After Stevens Johnson and so on? Penn Street ** 16:25 Actually really well. I have, I don't know where it came from. And I don't know, school was always easy for me. It's not that I'm the best student, I don't have a super IQ. I don't know what my IQ is. But school was always really easy. To me, I always looked at it sort of as a puzzle or a game. Depending on what the teacher needed or wanted from me, that's what I gave them, which got me good grades. And it just it always worked for me. I was always a good problem solver. And so, whenever I got a new teacher, which was you know, every year, or every quarter, whatever, whatever grade I was in, I really studied the teacher and what they needed and wanted and, and that's what I gave them. And so even though because of, you know, my bad, bad health or whatever you want to call it, I was kept home a lot. I don't think I went a full week of school when I was finally allowed to go back to school. You know, I think if I hit four days a week actually being, you know, my butt in the seat left classroom, that was rare. And but I still made I made straight A's I was I was always on the honor roll even in college. You know, when I went to university, I made the Dean's list, I worked full time. It was I I don't think there's anything special or gifted about me. I just, it's just the way my brain works. And I learned what it took to get good grades. And that's what I did. And I and I was disciplined about it. You know, and I did my work when I'm supposed to do my work. And it just worked out for me, Michael, it was, you know, I did go through public school, there was a time in middle school that my parents were concerned because I started you know, typical started getting teased and all that kind of thing. And they were they were concerned about my mental health, you know, but then I did i They allowed me to go, you know, research it and I even did, you know, some visits with a couple different schools. You know, and it just I it didn't feel right. I wanted, I wanted to be in the public school system. And it wasn't just because that's where my friends were. It's it's just that's what felt like what I needed. And Michael Hingson ** 19:04 so what year was this? What years were you in high school? Penn Street ** 19:07 I graduated in 87. Michael Hingson ** 19:09 Okay, so, you I never had any of the real teasing and bullying growing up as a blind kid. Because we lived in Palmdale, which was a pretty rural area 65 miles north of Los Angeles, but I know that over time, I guess more and more bullying happened. So maybe there was more of it. When you were in high school then even I experienced Of course it's a whole different ballgame now with all the things that exists but Penn Street ** 19:37 I was I can't imagine now. Yeah, I Michael Hingson ** 19:41 I wouldn't want to be a kid now. It's got to be so challenging. Exactly. But I was very fortunate that I didn't really have a lot and I I did have issues. I was denied access to the school bus for a while in my freshman year of high school because we had a bully of a superintendent in the district, we had a rule, we had a rule that said no live animals a lot on the school bus, which I understand. But there was a state law that said that, that blind people with guide dogs could take their dogs anywhere that the public could go. And under case law that included meat taking my dog on the school bus, well, the superintendent didn't care. And so I was actually denied. And when we got a board meeting about it at the local school board level, the board sided three to two with the superintendent, even though we showed them what the law said. And it actually took reaching out to the Governor of California who was at that time, Edmund G, Pat Brown, Jr. To get it reversed, and the superintendent then left us alone, but it took that level to to make it happen. But that's the but it was a great lesson for me, because I learned that you can fight city hall and when you gotta do it for the right reasons. Penn Street ** 20:59 Yeah. Yeah. Wow, I that is crazy to me. That it's ignorance, right. But I always wonder where did that I always want to sit down people like like that, like that superintendents. Like, where's this coming from? It Michael Hingson ** 21:23 from everything I knew about this guy, it was you do what I say? And that's all that matters. And so I don't know. But that's what I heard. But you certainly went through a lot. What did you major in, in college? Penn Street ** 21:36 Special Education in journalism? Michael Hingson ** 21:39 Ah, oh my gosh, that's two divergent majors. Penn Street ** 21:42 Yes, I always wanted to be a writer. And, but I also, I was, I feel like I was really lucky that I always had amazing mentors. Not every teacher was amazing. But I always learned something from each one of them. But I, but there were a few really big standouts and, but I always had these people in my life that were just really awesome role models for different, you know, different reasons. And, but one of the things that I think my mom, you know, she was, she was a very caring person. And she was a big believer, you know, we went to church and things like that. And I always saw her giving, you know, rather was like, you know, taking soup to somebody who was sick, or we had a neighbor who, across the street who was in a wheelchair, and my mom would go over, and, you know, just do chores for him not get paid, she just did it because she was a good person she wanted to, yeah, and that she didn't, we didn't ever really talk about it, but it really instilled in me that there are really awesome people out there. And whenever you can give back you should, and will on as a kid with a disability. You know, I, I was, you know, I was given things and I was given opportunities that my other siblings weren't given, you know, I got to go to summer camp, they didn't none of them a summer camp. You know, I, I, you know, had I was I took bowling lessons, you know, nobody else in my family to bowling lessons. So they're always, there was always this opportunities. And so as I got, you know, even in high school, I was given the opportunity to be a teacher's assistant in the special deeds class, and all of the students that were in there, you know, had different different abilities. And I, I loved it, I loved it. And they were my tribe. I didn't think of them as being any different than me. And I think that's why we all got along. And, and then I became involved with the program. It's called Cooper home, where seniors in high school that had various disabilities could go there to stay after. Yeah, Monday after school, and then they would come over and then, you know, so Monday night, Tuesday, Wednesday night, Thursday night, they would come over after school, and we would teach them independent living skills, transportation, all the things that they needed to be successful when they went, you know, left home after they graduated high school or went on to school or whatever they were going to do. And again, I just, I just loved it. Teaching was fun to me. It was It fills my cup. And I always learned I think I learned more from them than what I was teaching them. And it was it was just a gift take situation and And I really, really liked it. And so that's why I went into I wanted to be a teacher. But I also loved writing. And so So yeah, so it was it just made sense that that was the direction that I thought I was going to go with my career. I think we know our best, right when we're able to Michael Hingson ** 25:20 get for thinking right. Now, are you totally blind? Penn Street ** 25:24 I know I'm not I'm my ride is prosthetic, I finally made the choice a few years ago, it was an eye that was not usable. I had no vision and it hurt. Oh, and I, but I have on you know, like, well, someday I'm going to be the bionic woman. And we're going to come up with the bio. And I was like, why am I wasting all this energy being in pain was something that it's just paid. And so I had it removed and then my left eye, I have a little peripheral on the on the outer at the left hand side. But it's fuzzy. It's super fuzzy. That's what I call it fuzzy. Michael Hingson ** 26:03 Got it? Yeah, I was just curious to put it in perspective. But you went on to college, and that was was a certainly cool. And you You certainly seem to have a very positive attitude about you and about being blind and so on. You don't pity yourself. Why do you think that is? Penn Street ** 26:21 It's exhausting to feel sorry for yourself? Michael Hingson ** 26:25 Good idea. Good answer. Penn Street ** 26:28 I don't know. I think it's my, my, it was my parents, it was my teachers it was, you know, I think even before I got, you know, Stevens Johnson Syndrome, I had to learn to sort of pull up my bootstraps. And, you know, and again, I do think it was having seven older brothers, you know, they, even though I was way smaller than them and could never keep up with them. They expected me to, you know, like, oh, you can climb to the top of that tree, you can, you know, jump your bike over the obstacle. So, I think I was always pushing myself physically and mentally, that I just kept doing that, you know, and, you know, and again, that problem solving and, you know, in my mother, my mother was visually impaired and hearing impaired. And when she was a young child, she got very ill. It was from a medication. They think that possibly she had Stevens Johnson Syndrome, but not as, you know, as ferocious of cases I had, but at that time, they didn't call it Stevens Johnson said, Yeah. And so she just growing up with a mother that was visually impaired and hearing impaired. She, she didn't drive, but boy, could she ride the bus or walk across town through alleyways and that I didn't even know existed, right. And she was she was a really good example of, okay, you can't hear well, you can't see well, well, then you walk. You know, you use what, what assets you do have and you strengthen those. And it was sure No, I do. I think it was just part of my DNA. That Michael Hingson ** 28:30 it certainly did. certainly good for you. How are all your older brothers today? Penn Street ** 28:38 Um, I've I've lost two of them. And the oldest one passed away. He was he was actually in the at the very tail end of Vietnam. They think that it was some of the, you know, the war things that happened to him, that he, you know, he didn't live a very healthy life when he came home either. And then my brother who's just older than me, Tim, he was my Superman. He, the three the three of us, you know, Tim Sherry and I were, we were a little you know, the three musketeers and we always stood up for each other and he esophagus cancer runs in my family. And so he he passed away with the esophagus cancer, I have two other brothers that are still alive that also live with you know, the effects of the esophagus cancer in the My father's mother, my grandmother passed away of the esophagus cancer, so sorry to hear it. Yeah, but but they, you know, I don't I'm not real close to my other brothers, even though there wasn't a huge age gap between us. It was just enough, you know, but my little sister and I are very close. She lives in Colorado, too. So we we get together as often as we can, and at least send a funny emoji or some text every single day. So Michael Hingson ** 30:00 My brother and I were two years apart, but clearly very different. He was not blind. And so we weren't as close as we could have been. We did communicate, but still definitely different lives. So I understand what you're saying. And sometimes you're just not as close and at the same time, they're still your brothers. And and so it's still part of part of you in every way. Penn Street ** 30:25 Yeah, I posted. I'm on Tik Tok. And I posted a video about bullying. I don't know, a month or so maybe it's been two months now. And one of my older brothers who lives in Kansas, he posted like anybody messes with my little sister, they have to come through me. And then at the end, he goes, Well, what am I saying? No, she could probably kick your butt. Probably more than I can at this point. For him, yeah, but it was it was still nice to Michael Hingson ** 30:55 have some. What did you do after college? Penn Street ** 30:58 So I met my husband, Moses, and did you have one of those around? Yes, it is, he is a professional photographer. So the complete opposite scope as I am as far as visual goes, and he, we, I always say I hear he, he has had two little girls. And I always tell people, I fell in love with the girls, but and then he was just the icing happened to be there. Exactly. So yeah, so and a lot of it was because of meeting houses, my life really changed. My career changed my, what I what I thought it was going to end up doing in life changed, he, I was a really good salesperson. And I think it's because of my positive attitude. And, and if I'm passionate about something I can, like sell it. And so he was looking for a studio and gallery manager and even though I was visually impaired, you know, or low vision or whatever term you use, I, I really believed in him and I believed in what he was doing, he has a philosophy with photography, that how you look in a photograph has nothing to do with how you look, or the makeup you're wearing, or the hair or the clothes or whatever it has to do with how you feel. And if you feel beautiful, if you feel strong, then that's the way you come across in the photograph. And so that whole philosophy is of his i That's I, I, I bought it hook line and sinker. And it was something I could sell. And boy did I you know, we, we had decades of a very wealthy lifestyle, because of, of that, and, and it was it really changed lives, you know, people would come in that, you know, it could have been their wedding was coming up, or, you know, whatever the event was, and they would take this class, this photo class, and then Moses would do the shoot, the photoshoot, and their lives would really be changed because of it. And it's things that it's not like you come in and you do it, and then you can't redo it when you're your home or with your when you're with your family or your community. He actually taught you how to use the skills so that you could go on and be photographed by your Uncle Joe or, you know, the local newspaper or whatever it was, and you could still use those tools. And so it was it was a concept I really appreciated. And yeah, and so we so I went into sales, and I managed our studio and our gallery for four decades. And then we kind of hit this point, I lost another big chunk of vision overnight. And I was like, you know, it's it's time for me to get I really miss the teaching and the writing and, and I miss working with people with disabilities. And so we made the decision that I would I went back to I went through Division of Vocational Rehabilitation and you know, sort of sharpened all those skills Michael Hingson ** 34:27 needed to be a survivor, but go ahead. Penn Street ** 34:30 Yeah, don't get me started. But, but and then i i You know, put my resume out there and got scooped up by a nonprofit and the the rest of sort of history I you know, I do get to write now and I work now I work pretty much specifically with people who are blind or visually impaired, but I've had several opportunities to work for amazing organizations. that have that I've gotten to travel and meet extraordinary people. And do, you know, really, life dream? Things like I got to wrap the entire Grand Canyon with a group of high schoolers that were blind, you know, low vision. And one of them actually was profoundly deaf as well. And boy with this was that an experience of a lifetime and loved every moment of it. So I, you know, we don't make you know, we're I work for a nonprofit. So we're not making those huge dollar amounts that we did when we had the studio and gallery but life is life is just this Michael Hingson ** 35:43 rich. But But Moses is still doing okay. Penn Street ** 35:46 He is he's semi retired. And he he, he probably does, I would say, maybe a dozen jobs a year, but that's fine. It's fine. We like we like we like where we are, you know, we have a beautiful life. Michael Hingson ** 36:02 Well, if you if you ever have to just point out to him that no matter what he says, it may be the picture's worth 1000 words, but they take up a whole heck of a lot more memory. I like that. Yeah, I saw that once a few years ago. I thought it was great. Well, you, I do. figure I might as well since you brought it up. I do like to use the term low vision as opposed to visually impaired. And I'll tell you why. I've talked about it a few times here. But I think there are two problems with the whole terminology of visually impaired first of all, deaf people would shoot you if you call them visual or human hearing impaired? Oh, yes, absolutely. Because they have recognized that they shouldn't be compared to a person who can hear and if you say impaired, you're immediately putting a stigma in the same way visually impaired. But the other problem with visually impaired is visually, we're not necessarily different just because we don't see, 36:59 unless we look, some of us look exactly Michael Hingson ** 37:02 the same. Some of us not necessarily, but that's why low vision is so much better. And we we've got to get people into the habit of trying to stop comparing us. Penn Street ** 37:12 Exactly, yeah, I actually I interviewed you for my podcast after sight. And we had this discussion. We have a hike coming up. And I actually purposely banked made sure that I put low vision that are visually impaired, and I've been trying pretty much daily trying to get my team where I work to use low vision instead of visually impaired, Michael Hingson ** 37:40 it makes a lot more sense. I mean, you can make the case of low vision isn't fair, because so we don't see good. We got lots of vision. But I can cope with that, you know, because eyesight and vision are so closely equated. And I don't think you're going to get rid of that one. But visually impaired is a ridiculous thing. Anyway. But so you're working with nonprofits. And and you mentioned after site, so we should talk about that some because you have a nice, successful podcast. And that seems to be going pretty well. Penn Street ** 38:12 Yes. It's called the after site. And it's all one word. And when I started working as the development and Outreach Director for the nonprofit audio information network of Colorado, here in Colorado, they had had a previous podcast, it was called Community Conversations. And they but if they hadn't had it in several years, and so they asked me if I would, you know, bring it back to life. And I did, but I didn't really like community conversations. I wanted it, it was so broad. I wanted Michael Hingson ** 38:49 something doesn't mean anything necessarily anymore. What does that Penn Street ** 38:53 mean? It sounds I don't know, it. It just, it just didn't strike home to me. And so I went to, you know, the executive director and the board and I said, you know, I really would, I really liked doing the podcast, but I would like to be more focused. And, you know, since we work, you know, our resources and services that we're providing here are for people who are blind and low vision is it should be about vision loss, and that's, that's my wheelhouse, right? You know, and I and I know a ton of people that have incredible stories and incredible resources are incredible services. And I that's where I would like the focus to go and so we actually with my, my grant manager, and I were brainstorming, and he's the one that came up with after sight. Because I often say there is life after sight, you know, after losing your vision and so he so it's stuck and so that's why it became after sight, and I do love doing it. It's I I just, I've met so many just amazing people worldwide through it. And they it became so successful that it was becoming a little overwhelming to keep up with, along with my, you know, my regular duties being development director and doing outreach. And so they hired a Podcast Producer Jonathan, shout out to you. And Jonathan really took it to the level where it is now. And because he knew he had the skills and so he brings on just amazing guests. And I do you know, throw him a few people that I know like you with you, Michael. You know, I had your name on the on my list for quite a while before, our mutual friend Kevin, you know, introduced us again, so Michael Hingson ** 40:49 well, and it was fun doing that podcast. And yeah. And I hope that people will seek out after site as well. How long have you been doing the podcasts now? Penn Street ** 40:59 Two years now? Okay. Michael Hingson ** 41:02 Yeah, we're coming up on our second year in August, we reached out to a lot of people on LinkedIn who have expressed interest in being on the podcast, and because of that last year, we've gone to two episodes a week. Penn Street ** 41:16 That's me. I, we had talked about that. But I just I'm like I, I can. Michael Hingson ** 41:22 Yeah, well, it's fun to work at home. So I'm able to do a lot of that you're actually the second person today that I've had the opportunity to have an interview with, but it's careful. But it's fun to do. And, like you. I love learning. And I've learned a lot from every person who I have the opportunity to talk with. Yes. And so it's so much fun. Now, you use you use a guide dog, as I recall, Penn Street ** 41:54 I do which he barked earlier, which I'm glad he isn't doing Michael Hingson ** 42:01 well, as Jonathan could probably tell you, if he edits podcast, you could actually edit that out without any difficulty. There is technology today to do all that kind of stuff. It's pretty amazing. But what what made you wait so long to start to use a guide dog? Penn Street ** 42:16 Well, because of the Stevens Johnson Syndrome. I don't have any I shouldn't say don't have any, but I have very little mucous membranes. And so breathing and dog hair is not I mean, I will occasionally on special occasions, I'll do it. But I usually pay for it in the end. But so I never thought I could have a guide dog because I only knew of shepherds and labs. And so I never really researched it. And then a friend said, when I saw this article about they're using standard poodle, as guide dogs, and I was like, You gotta be kidding me. And I, as a kid, I love dogs. And so I had a, you know, the miniature poodle, little Behringer and then even when I met Moses, our his, his oldest daughter, who you know, is my stepdaughter, she she really wanted a dog and so we got to beach on Friday, which again, is hypoallergenic and, and so one I don't think I'd ever even seen a standard poodle, like I couldn't pitch are these enough to guide me around? I'm five nine. So it's like I did, but I did some research and and at that time, the Guide Dogs for the Blind out of California was they had a poodle program. So they went through their whole thing where they come out, they do the Juna walk and all that. And but then every poodle that came up, got reassigned to something else. And they finally gave up on poodles. If but they've referred me to pilot dogs, which is where I met you, Michael for the first time. So many years ago, they referred me to pilot dogs because the executive director at pilot dogs at the time, really love standard poodles and they actually had a pretty big vibrant program. And so that's how I ended up there. And my first two guide dogs was through pilot dogs. And then I went on to my last two dogs have been from the Guide Dog Foundation for the Blind out of Smithtown, Michael Hingson ** 44:30 New York, right? So all peoples Penn Street ** 44:32 all poodles, I did try. What are they called? The poodle lab crossover doodles. Yeah. But I was still enough allergic like they were still laugh enough in there that it wasn't. It wasn't a good match. Michael Hingson ** 44:49 I have to be careful how I say this, because there's somebody over here on the floor listening but so the story goes poodles are about the most intelligent dog there. Penn Street ** 44:59 Release they are, which is quite, Michael Hingson ** 45:03 he's not gonna bite me. Penn Street ** 45:06 But that's sometimes not a blessing, because they are so intelligent that they can be stubborn. And you really have to be the alpha dog 24/7 Because they, they will, they will test you, you, you have to have a certain, and there's that tomboy attitude. Right. You know, and, but I've been very, very fortunate with with my dogs and they I every time it will, you know, Michael, they know they don't live that long. And it drives me crazy. And they definitely don't guide as long as we would like them to and no. So the last one I, I was like, This is it, I I'm gonna go back, I'll just be a king user, like, I'm fine. I have good cane skills. And but here I am. And so now with him, he's nine and a half. And I have a feeling guy duck foundation will send out their trainer to do his evaluation in the spring. And there'll be like, I think it's time because he has slowed down a lot. And he's got some arthritis in his hips and that kind of thing. He's healthy. He's, he's 60. But it's not fair to him. And I'll keep him though. Sure. I will not even though I have a list of people, like I'll take him on like, no. But I I thinking he might be my last guy. But I thought that last time, so I should be open to whatever. Michael Hingson ** 46:46 Yeah, I I agree. I think the issue is that these dogs love to work. And they would work till they drop. And so it's up to us, as you said to be the alpha dog, but also to be the real team leader and understand when it's time to retire. But it doesn't mean that you shouldn't get another one, it just means you're going to develop new memories. We had a cat, my wife had a cat named Bojangles. And Bo was, was a she lived to be I think, almost 15. But she so when I got married, I got married to both of them. And when she passed the The vet said, don't wait a long time to get a new cat. Remember, you're not replacing the memories or the cat, you're going to create new memories. And I've always told that to people, both getting animals after one died and and also just dealing with guide dogs and so on. The reality is it's new memories, you're going to learn new things. And it's an adventure. So you should you should continue. Penn Street ** 48:00 Yeah, yeah. I mean, I can't imagine my life without, you know. I mean, they are sort of part of my identity. But it's we'll see. We'll see. Michael Hingson ** 48:13 Yeah, you'll do what's right for you. Now, I understand that you've met Erik Weihenmayer. Tell me about Penn Street ** 48:19 that. Yeah, Eric and I are good friends. I've never met Eric. He's he's a big goofball is it's in very giving. He So Eric is the first blind person to summit Mount Everest. Now, Lonnie Bedwell. I don't know if he's, he's up on Everest right now. If he summits he'll be the third. So I remember when the second I can't remember his name. The second blind person that summited Everest, Eric, Eric had to change his title to first instead of the only blind person Michael Hingson ** 48:56 they have to grow and change, you know? Yeah. Penn Street ** 48:59 So I met I met Eric I, when I think I mentioned I lost a big chunk of vision pretty much overnight and, and even though I had all the skills, the tools to took to move on, but it kind of put me in a dark place. Mostly because it I was really afraid of my career, which at that moment was working the studio and gallery. And so a friend of mine Diantha she's from Czechoslovakia. She goes, You know, I heard that there's this blind guy that summited Mount Everest, and his his premiere of his filmless is showing and I think we should go on top of the world, right? Yes. And so she pretty much kidnapped me forced me to go and she of course had the best seats right up front. And I couldn't really see the screen. But I could hear everything. Yeah. And, and then Eric, and his, you know, group of goofballs that submitted with him got up on stage. And it was the first person. I mean, I had met other blind people, but it was the first person that who was blind that was alive. That became a mentor to me. And I met him afterwards because we had, you know, the VIP ticket or whatever. And we just really hit off this friendship. Now this was before, he's the Eric, why, Marius today. So you could just walk up and meet him. And I was working for the actually the Stevens Johnson Syndrome Foundation, and I was putting together a fundraiser, and I said, Eric, this film would be great for me to, to use as a fundraiser, and I did pay the, you know, the filming rights and stuff to show the film, come up with the money. And I did, he didn't give me any favors, discounts. And I showed the film, and it was a huge success, and and then he started asking me to volunteer for his nonprofit, which has no barriers, and I would go to speaking gigs and, you know, do different things for him. And we just a friendship grew out of that. And then there was a position open with no barriers. And I, I applied, and I got it and went to work full time for him. And it was, it was incredible ride. Incredible, right? They just did a big hike actually on Saturday, which I was supposed to be at, but with what's going on with my heart right now. I didn't dare I didn't even go up to to the mountain. And I was thinking about, well, I'll just go up and I'll just sit at the base camp. But I didn't, it was too, too painful. So I usually do one hike a year with him. And that I think I might get another opportunity in August, hopefully. But But yeah, we he really did become a mentor of mine, because I love the outdoors. So much. And I really didn't know anybody who was blind or low vision that did outdoor sports until I met Eric. And then of course, I met Eric and he introduced me to, you know, everybody, and it was it was like, oh, again, it was like, okay, no big deal, I just have to do it a little bit differently. And so I kept doing it. And it's it's, it really opened a door that I didn't even know existed. So I really, really appreciate. Appreciate what and he's done that for 1000s of people. And and I shouldn't say you can't just walk up and meet him, you can if you if you're in the right place at the right time. And he really is generous with his time. But he definitely has that buffer now, you know, between himself and the general public because he has to he can't, he can't be there for everybody all the time. You know, he has a lot of responsibilities with what he does. So Michael Hingson ** 53:31 well, you had to face a lot of things and in your world and in your life. Well, how do you face your fears? And why is it important to face them? Penn Street ** 53:42 That's a really good question. I think I think when you don't face your fears, it gets it gets harder to face the next one, where if you keep on top of them, it I think it becomes a little bit easier. And so to me, if I if I come across things that scare me on whatever level whether they're physically or or mentally or it could be somebody telling me oh, you can't do that because you're blind. i It makes me want to do it more. Because Because I'm afraid it will if I if I don't face this fear, then the next one that comes along I'm not going to be able to face that one. And so and I do pick, you know, I I pick my battles, but you know, I don't I don't I don't think I seek out fear. I'm not I'm not I don't think I'm adrenaline junkie, you know, but on any level, especially compared to people like Eric Kim, you know, and that level of athlete, but I really think that we have to keep on top of our fears, because there's so many things out there day to day things that are scary. You know, and if we don't keep that fear in check, and, and Michael, I mean, you know this if you face a fear and you're able to break through it and learn from it and grow from it, the next one that's just doesn't seem as scary. So if we, I feel like if I get lazy about that, I'll give in and be like, I'll let the fear take over there. There was a book that came out, I didn't even read the book, it was just the title. I think it came out in the late 80s, early 90s. It was called fear, feel, sale, the fear and do it anyway. And just the title of that book became my mantra, you know, it's like, it's okay to be afraid, it is totally okay for me to be afraid. But to feel that and acknowledge it as a feeling. But I can go ahead and do it just just because I'm afraid of it doesn't, there's not a stop sign, it just means that it's I'm afraid. Michael Hingson ** 56:15 I think we talked a little bit during our time on after site, podcast about fear. And one of the things I talked about as we're starting to write actually, it's now at the publisher being looked at, it's called a guide dogs Guide to Being brave. That's our working title. But I realized during the pandemic, that what I haven't done most of the time I've been speaking, is while I talk about not being afraid, I've not really worked to try to teach other people how to deal with fear. And I put it that way, because I'm not going to say how not to be afraid because I agree with you fear is part of what we do. The issue is, can we learn to control our fear? And the answer is yes, we can. And there's no question that we can learn how to not as I call it, be blinded by see her. And that's what we need to do. So I started working on that during the pandemic, I have a friend, I'm working with Carrie Wyatt, Kenton. So we've written the book, and now we're waiting to hear from the publisher what they want to edit or change or or do, we've done that once. And now we're, we're on our second shot at it, and we're working toward it, the expectation is that we can put something out. And it's called a guide dogs Guide to Being brave, because we base it all around the eight guide dogs that I've had and lessons I learned from them and how they behaved. And one of them could not face fear very well, and actually created her own fear, and only worked about 18 months before having to retire because she couldn't get any more she was too afraid of it. But it's a it's a fascinating set of stories. So looking forward to that coming out. But I agree with you, it's a matter of facing fear. But learning to recognize that fear can be a very powerful, positive tool for each of us. Penn Street ** 58:10 Yeah. I agree. You know, I think some of because even rafting the Grand Canyon, I am not a good swimmer. I'm not a big, you know, like dog paddle. And I had never rafted in my entire life. And guess what there's lots of in the Grand Canyon snakes. So I, but I've really wanted to do it, I really, really wanted this experience. And I wanted to meet these kids from all over the United States, and do this adventure with them. And I it was really, it was sometimes hour by hour. And it was day by day, but but I also I shared my fear with the kids. And, and at first I wasn't going to because I was afraid to tell these high school kids because high school kids, they can be rough on you, and especially my experience getting bullied in high school. And so I was actually afraid to tell the kids about my fears. And I talked with the other leaders on the group and they said you you should tell them. Yes, I bet you. I bet you these kids have fears of their own. And you're here to be their mentor. So Michael Hingson ** 59:39 plus, plus, if you don't, they'll see through you every time. 59:46 So I did I told them about, you know, how I lost my vision and with the rattlesnake by initiating the whole thing. And it was amazing. So at night The kids because we slept outside on Paco pads, of course. And they would put their their pads around me in a circle. And they said, you know, Miss Penn, if we feel a snake golfer as well, yeah, well, before it gets to you, I don't know if that's gonna help. But Michael Hingson ** 1:00:19 that probably isn't a good idea, but nice, but good thought nevertheless was, Penn Street ** 1:00:23 and they shared some of the fears that they had, and that they had not shared in their paperwork, you know, because you have to fill out a book, you know, booklet of paperwork before you get to come. And it was, it was amazing, because they got to be vulnerable, and they got to share their fears. And then the other kids got to support them, you know, and getting over their fears. And, you know, it was, and what ended up happening is we all learned each other's strengths and weaknesses. And so, you know, the really strong swimmers did the swimming, and then they taught some of us weaker ones, you know, some of the tricks, you know, and gave us some skills. And it was it was just, it ended up being a really neat thing. So I think it's okay to, and I think it's important to tell people when you're afraid, yeah, no, Michael Hingson ** 1:01:19 I agree, it's important to do that. And everyone is different. And some of us don't necessarily face fear, and have negative reactions a lot. I think that's a lot of my upbringing, but some of us do. And there's no right or wrong way. It's a question though, of what we learn with it, and, and how we learn to address and deal with fear and challenges that we face. I'm assuming that you did not encounter any rattlesnakes in the Grand Canyon, Penn Street ** 1:01:50 not any of that were alive there. What we thought we did a hike one day back into where this waterfall was. And one of the I was at the back, I like to be it's called the sweeper, it's the person in the back of the pack that makes sure nobody gets left behind. And that's always my favorite roll. And one of the kids came back coming to me and I was like, you're supposed to be going the opposite way. And they said, Miss Penn, there's there's a rattlesnake up there. But it's in it's right on the side of the trail. And it's right when you get to the waterfall. And and it but it's Dad and I said you could lead with it's so it was really sweet. When I got up there. I say like, do you want to see it? It's dead. I was like, Nope, I don't Michael Hingson ** 1:02:37 need to have enough exposure to them already. I've ever been there, done that. But then Penn Street ** 1:02:43 I was standing in the pool at the bottom of the waterfall. And one of the guides, you know, he's been a river rat forever, has hundreds, probably hundreds of times, rafting the Grand Canyon. He was standing near me and I said, What do you think killed that rattlesnake, you know, was its head crushed into something? Because Oh no, it probably got caught in the current above. And then when it came down the waterfall either got sucked under and drowned or just the impact of and I said, so there are rattlesnakes coming to Vegas? Well, it's probably rare. But yeah, I was like, Okay, I'm gonna go stand up. Michael Hingson ** 1:03:25 He could have told you that it was afraid of you. Penn Street ** 1:03:27 But now they'd have mentioned that. Yeah. Michael Hingson ** 1:03:31 So what's next for Penn Street in the world? Penn Street ** 1:03:34 Oh, wow. I I am really, uh, you know, I'm, I turned 55 This year, which, to some people doesn't sound old to others. I sound ancient. But, you know, my, my body is definitely maybe plateauing. And so, I'm really looking at these next few years of things that I really, really, really want to accomplish physically, and make sure that I do those things. So, you know, there are trips my brother who I mentioned my Superman when he passed away, my father's side of the family is from Scotland and, and Tim was really proud of his Scottish roots. My mother was Cherokee, Choctaw, Native American Indian. But Tim wanted his ashes taken back to Scotland and so it's been 10 years, next year will be 10 years. So we are going to some family and really close friends of my brothers are we're going to take his ashes to Scotland and I'm looking at different either biking trips or hiking, you know, trails that I would like to do there. That's a really big deal to me. And then the there's just there's some big trips like that that I want to accomplish. In the next couple of years, and I really, really would like to rap the Grand Canyon one more time, while I'm as healthy as I possibly. So, that's, that's really what's what's next for me. I love working at audio information network of Colorado. And I am so blessed to have such an amazing team. And Kim is such a great executive director. And so I see myself hopefully, you know, knock on wood here, that that's where my career will, you know, go until I retire, but who knows, you never know what what doors are gonna open and Michael Hingson ** 1:05:44 well, when you go to Scotland, you'll have to go eat some haggis Penn Street ** 1:05:48 hog I've heard about haggis. No, thank you. Michael Hingson ** 1:05:52 I went to New Zealand and had haggis pie was very tasty. Now I don't know what was in it, as opposed to what they say is in haggis. It was very tasty. So you know, I'll bet it will be not not so bad. When you go there. Go to a restaurant and get haggis. I bet it won't be what? I would try it. I think it's worth exploring. Be brave. I will. I will. They won't have rattlesnake in it. I guarantee you that Penn Street ** 1:06:19 that's good. I guess there are places that serve rattle steak in the south. But I've never Michael Hingson ** 1:06:28 I had steak once somebody gave me a piece of snake and it tasted like chicken. There was way too much cartilage. And that was enough for me. I don't need to do it anymore. I can say Penn Street ** 1:06:39 I'm a pescetarian I guess they call it I'm vegetarian, but I will eat salmon. You know fish occasionally. Yeah. And but you know, when you're traveling, especially abroad, you kind of need to go with the flow and open Michael Hingson ** 1:06:53 you to give me a good piece of garlic bread any day. Yes. Well pin this has been absolutely fun. And I'm really glad we had a chance to do this. And I want to hear more about your exploits as you go forward. So we need to do this again in a year or two when you've done some of your other adventures. And I hope everyone has enjoyed this. We'd love to hear your comments reach out to us. But how can people reach out to you and learn more about you and what you're doing and all that kind of stuff? 1:07:27 Absolutely. I'm on most social media, Tik Tok, Instagram, Facebook, you can either use my name Penn P E N N Street, or my tagline is the blind check. Which came out of me running for city council. And so that's another story. But the blind check. And also you can reach out to me at audio information network of Colorado and find out more about what we do there. We are state based so if you're in Colorado, check us out it but it's Penn p e n n at A I N Colorado dot O R G. So I'd love to hear from you. Michael Hingson ** 1:08:11 And after say podcast has a website. 1:08:14 It does not have a website that you can reach it through our website, which is the A I N colorado.org. Or it's on everything Apple, Spotify, Google, you know all of all of the big podcast platforms. Just it's after sight all one word. And yeah, we'd love to have you check us out there as well. Michael Hingson ** 1:08:37 Cool. Well, we appreciate you being here and telling us all that as well. And for all of you out there, go seek out Penn street, I think it will be a treat. And she's got lots of interesting and relevant things to say needless to say. And again, I want to thank you all for listening. Please give us a five star rating wherever you're listening to us, we would appreciate it. And I hope that you'll reach out to me I'd love to hear what you think of today's episode. You can reach me at Michael M I C H A E L H I at accessibe A C C E S S I B E.com. Or at WWW dot Michael Hingson M I C H A E L H I N G S O N .com/podcast. So we're findable. And we'd love to hear from you. I'd love to hear your thoughts and Penn for you and for anyone else's thing. If you've got any thoughts of other people who we ought to have as guests. We always appreciate introductions and emails about that. So please let us know and introduce us to anyone who you think we ought to have as a guest. We'll do it. We're glad to and once more Penn. I want to thank you for being with us today. This has been an absolute joy. Penn Street ** 1:09:49 Thank you, Michael. Michael Hingson ** 1:09:53 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.
