Episode 249 – Unstoppable Public Affairs Officer and Writer with Chase Spears

Being a life-long blind person I have never served in the military and thus only understand the military way of life vicariously. There is reading about it, of course and there is talking to military people about their lifestyle. Today you get to hear a conversation not only about military life, specifically the army world, as it were, from a 20-year career soldier, Chase Spears who recently retired from the military as a major in the army. Chase grew up always interested in the news and what was going on in the world around him. He attended college, both undergraduate studies and later graduate work at universities in Tennessee. Along the way an army recruiting officer persuaded him to join the army. By that time, he was well married to a woman who, surprising to him, supported his decision to leave college and join the army. Chase’s telling of this story is wonderful to hear. As you will see, he is quite the storyteller.   He and I talk a great deal about the world of a soldier, and he puts a lot of things into perspective. For those of you who have served in the military much of what you hear may not be totally new. However, since Chase served in public affairs/relations duties throughout most of his army career, you may find his observations interest. Chase and I had a good free-flowing and informative conversation. I personally came away fascinated and look forward to talking with Chase again in the future. A few months ago, Mr. Spears retired and entered into a doctoral program at Kansas State University where he is conducting research concerning how military life impacts the citizenship of those who serve. You will get to hear a bit about what he is finding.   About the Guest:   U.S. Army Major (Ret.) Chase Spears is first and foremost a Christian, Husband, and Father to five children who help to keep him and his wife young at heart. Having grown up with a passion for news and policy, Chase spent 20 years in the Army as a public affairs officer, trying to be part of a bridge between the military and the public. He merged that work with a passion for writing to become one of the Army’s most published public affairs officers, often to resistance from inside the military. Chase continues that journey now as a doctoral candidate at Kansas State University, where his dissertation research explores how military life impacts the citizenship of those who serve. His other writings focus on topics including civil-military dynamics, communication ethics, and the political realities of military operations.   Ways to connect with Chase:   LinkedIn/X/Substack/Youtube: @drchasespears www.chasespears.com   About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes:

Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Hi there and welcome once again to unstoppable mindset. And we have a I think really interesting show today are interesting episode we get to chat with major retired Chase Spears. I've been saying ret all morning because he's got Rhett in parentheses. And I didn't even think about it being not a name but retired. But anyway, that's me. Anyway, he has been involved in a lot of writing in and out of the military. He was a major military person for 20 years. He's now in a doctoral candidate program, Kennedy C candidacy program. And my gosh, there's a lot there, but we'll get to it also. Major Rhett major Chase spears. Welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here.   Chase Spears ** 02:13 just thrilled to be with you, Michael. Thanks for having me. Now   Michael Hingson ** 02:17 that now that we've abused you with Rhett, but that's okay.   Chase Spears ** 02:20 I think God worse. Well, there   Michael Hingson ** 02:22 you are. And by your friends, I bet. So that's what really makes them more fun. But we're but I really am grateful that you were willing to come on and spend some time with us. Why don't we start I love to, to start this way to give people a chance to get to know you. Why don't you tell us some about the early Chase spheres and growing up and all that stuff?   Chase Spears ** 02:44 Well, it's yeah, it's been quite a journey. I grew up in the southeast us My family was out of Florida. And when I was a teenager, we ended up moving we went out to Texas, which was really just kind of a an entire change of culture for us. If you can imagine going from the kind of urban parts of Florida that are really highly populated a lot of traffic, a lot of tourism, a lot of industry. And we went up to North Central Texas in my teen years. And if you can imagine going from from that, you know, Florida to a town of about 9000 people it was a an oil and agricultural cattle town, and Graham, Texas and it was really kind of a culture shock at first, but turned into some of the best and most formative years of my life where I I really learned the value of hard work working on the fields with my dad really got to kind of connect with nature and just taking some gorgeous sunsets in the evenings out working in the fields enjoying the views of the wildlife Hall. I was out working. But one thing that I did learn from hard manual labor, was it made sure that I kept on track for college. And so I ended up going to Lee University in Cleveland, Tennessee in 1998. Right after I graduated from high school, I was homeschooled and met my Hi my sweetie there, Laurie. We were married by senior year we decided neither one of us we wanted to graduate and leave the other one behind. So we got married start a family pretty young afterwards. Went on to the University of Tennessee at Knoxville afterwards because I thought, hey, I want to work in journalism. And it'd be great to have a master's degree in journalism to prove my commitment to the field make people take me seriously. And it was during that time that I ran into an army recruiter while I was working my part time job at a law firm. I was working at the courthouse one day filing paperwork. And this gentleman and I just struck up a conversation in an elevator he was there in his full dress uniform was very impressive to me as a civilian at the time. And so I started asking him questions about what he did. In what army life was like just trying to be friendly, conversational, I was genuinely curious, though I was not looking for a military career. Well, as a good recruiter does, he managed to coax a phone number out of me. And seven months later there I am raising my right hand, swearing into the army in Knoxville, Tennessee. And so we were in the army for 20 years, we moved to several different parts of the nation, we've landed in northeastern Kansas, just on the outskirts of the Greater Kansas City, Missouri area. And now we're kind of starting a new phase of life after the army enjoying being kind of planted Gayndah. Watch our kids grow in a smaller community. And we're excited about what's next. So   Michael Hingson ** 05:42 what is the postdoc? Where are the doctoral degree in, that you're seeking.   Chase Spears ** 05:47 So I am in a program entitled leadership communication. But I'm kind of a misplaced public policy scholars what I've learned, but the faculty there have been so wonderfully gracious to me, and I've been very supportive of my research agenda. So I'm a career communicator. In the army, I was a public affairs officer. So everything I did was about stuff like this. I didn't community engagement, I did interviews, I was did social media strategy, I was part of the bridge that the military tries to build between it and the public, which is incredibly important in our form of governance. And so I love all things communication. And I also love team leadership, small organizational leadership, I had the chance to, to lead teams, I had the chance to lead a company while I was in the army, so fell in love with that. So when I saw a degree program that merged both of those, you know, they had me at hello, I was a sucker from the get go when I saw the marketing. So I applied and they very kindly accepted me. So I've been studying leadership communication, but my research agenda is actually more in the policy realm. My dissertation work is studying how did we come to this concept that the military isn't a political and air quotes institution, when it is funded by the government when it is commanded by elected leadership? When when we exert our national will, on other nations with it there absolutely political connotations to all of that. And And yet, we kind of say the opposite. So I was curious, I was like, this would be something fun to explore, how did we How did we get to where we believe this in spite of what we do? And so that's what my research Jind agenda is all about. And I'm having a lot of fun writing.   Michael Hingson ** 07:37 Well, and I guess we could go right to why well, so why do you think the reason is that we are not a political but we say we are? Oh, are you still researching it to the point where you're not ready to answer that yet? Well, I   Chase Spears ** 07:57 have, I have some theories and what I believe are pretty educated guesses. I'm trying to make sure that I don't bore your audience going too deep in the weeds on this. It's really kind of comes out of the Second World War. When you look at the history of the United States. Traditionally, we are a nation, our ancestors were part of a nation that were really cautious about the idea of having large standing military forces during peacetime. Because there had been this historical observance over hundreds of years, particularly in Europe, that large forces during peacetime ended up causing problems for society and the nations that bred large armies inevitably found ways to use them, that might not always be to the benefit of the populace. So we come out of the Second World War, and the nation has decided we're going to become the global military superpower, we didn't want to be caught off guard again, like we were for what Germany had done in the years after the First World War. And we also have a rising Russia, we need to counter that. So we decided as a nation, yeah, we will become a global, permanent, large, highly industrialized, highly institutionalized force. Well, how do you gain public support for that when the public has traditionally for hundreds of years been very, very suspect of that and very much against it? Well, Samuel, in walk Samuel Huntington, a brilliant political scientist who writes the book, the soldier in the state, and in it he proposed a theory of military supervision in which officers would abstained from voting and then over time that grew legs into Okay, well, now we're just not involved in politics and then in time that grew legs into where a political, but if you go around the force and ask most people what that means, if you ask them to define that word, few would actually be able to define it. It's one of those kind of discursive terms that we've come up with kind of like for the public good. Well, what is for the public good? Can you actually define that, and it's largely often in the eyes of the beholder. So that that's where I believe it came from, I'm still doing quite a bit of work and reading in that. But historically, it's very fascinating to see where we've come and just 70 years on that topic. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 10:25 And also, we're in a phase of all of that, where it seems to be at least that it's changing and morphing again, I mean, with what's happened in the last seven years in this country, and the, the lack of desire for discourse, the the desire on some people's parts to really involve the military and a lot of things. It seems like we're possibly changing again, or perhaps even strengthening the military in some way. And I'm not sure what that is.   Chase Spears ** 11:04 We there's really kind of been somewhat of a public backlash, the last, I'd say, five to 10 years, we saw an increasing comfort with military members publicly advocating for political policy for political parties, which is absolutely within their constitutional right to do, George Washington himself said, we did not lay aside the citizen to assume the soldier. But again, that that discourse coming out of the Second World War, really kind of conditions the American public to think that when you're in the military, you do give up your rights to expression that you do give up your rights to citizen agency, and, and, and meaningful involvement in civic processes. And while we do rightly give up some expressive rights, and that is captured and codified in military regulations, and the Uniform Code of Military Justice, there's some legitimacy to that argument. But I would say, you know, if you're, if you're holding a ruler in your hand, the regulations kind of restrict us somewhere between the two and three inch mark on the ruler, whereas the perception that's just kind of come out of the repetition of these terms and ideas is more that we're up around the nine or 10 inch mark on the ruler, if that makes any sense for you. So we we've seen in the last few years, more military people being willing to get involved politically, and there has been somewhat of a backlash to it. And therein is the problem. You if you're going to hold to a belief to a doctrine to a discursive claim, then you have to match it. And the military is really kind of at a point right now they have a decision to make, are we going to hold on to this discourse to this idea? Or are we going to acknowledge that? Well, the regulations are much less restrictive than what people have been led to believe? It's it's a tough spot to be there's not a perfect answer, to help the institution requires cracking down on constitutional freedoms. And well, what is the institution there to serve? So it's a very sticky issue?   Michael Hingson ** 13:11 Well, it does seem to me that in no way, because the person becomes a soldier. And even in their oaths, do they give up the right to be a citizen of the country? So I'm with George Washington?   Chase Spears ** 13:26 Oh, absolutely. No, I am with with George Washington himself, you know, the greatest American? And I think we would, it's a, it's a good reminder of the importance of knowing our history and knowing where we came from. It's in my interviews with military members on this topic. In my research, I'm finding that that like me, most of them were just kind of told these things verbally. They were never pointed to the actual rules. They were never actually pointed to the actual laws. I only know the regulations because I have a personal fascination on the topic. And I went and looked them up. But no one ever told me where to find them. That was research on my own team and figure out where do I look for this. So it's, we really need to do better, nationally, to know our history and know where we came from.   Michael Hingson ** 14:14 We do have a really interesting paradox in the world, because we've gotten in the last two government administrations, to different views of not only how to govern, but to a degree how the military needs to be a part of it, and that's gonna not be very helpful to things either.   Chase Spears ** 14:34 Absolutely. The the military at the end of the day is controlled by the Civilian governance. Now. I'll acknowledge that General Mark Milley didn't really seem to think so and there have been other figures in military history who MacArthur being one of them who who seemed to challenge who was actually in charge of the military. But at the end of the day, constitutionally, we We are governed by by civilians. And that that is right, that is proper any anything else would be a coup and you don't want that. So we, it comes down to how does the military try to hold a consistent line? When you have governments that change every two to four to eight years and have drastically different perspectives on policy? How do you as a military hold an even keel and another wise stormy sea. And in previous generations, we had senior general officers who were pretty good at that they were pretty good at saying, regardless of what the ship of state is doing, the ship of military is going to remain on a heading to serve everyone. And there's been somewhat of a lack a breakdown of discipline at the senior ranks in the last probably 10 years, that's really kind of shuttered the ship of the military. And I think the current some of the recently promoted, general officers understand that I think General GA is the new Chief of Staff of the Army, I think he understands that and he's trying to do some things to reintroduce some stability, but it's a hard thing.   Michael Hingson ** 16:16 Yeah. And the other part about it is that the military, in some ways is a part of society. So we've had things like the whole Don't Ask, Don't Tell dealing with LGBTQ types of issues. And, and of course, even women in the military, and there's been a lot of things that haven't necessarily been as visible as they have become, and are issues that we are starting to face and deal with more. But it seems to me that the military, like it or not, is part of society. And we do need to recognize that collectively, as well.   Chase Spears ** 17:02 We were absolutely drawn from society. We serve society, we exist, you know, for the protection of society. But I will say there's one thing that's all always kind of set Western militaries apart a little bit, and the US military hails from that Western tradition of understanding that just because society chooses to take a move in one direction, doesn't necessarily mean that it's in the national security interest of the United States for the military, to follow suit. And then there's kind of a reason that the military has always tried to, in some way, set itself apart, of acknowledging that there's some things that society will do or want to that are affected by the times as Shakespeare himself noted, there's always a tide in the affairs and man, the tide comes in the time tide goes out the the, the winds shift. And but one thing that was said at the military part was this idea of, at the end of the day, if it's a societal change that enables us to better defend the nation, then that's the direction we'll move. If it's a societal change that could potentially be a friction point or cause additional challenges in securing the nation, we might, we might think on that one a little bit harder, we might be a little more a little slower to adopt that. And we've seen that has kind of broken down the military is very much going out of its way to be reflective of society. And in some ways that can be good in some ways that's caused additional unnecessary frictions to the force and is rightly being having questions asked about it.   Michael Hingson ** 18:45 And that's where having good solid leadership in the military at the highest echelons, has to be an important part of it, because that's where ultimately, the direction that the military goes, is at least in part, going to be authored. Yes, there is a civilian government that and civilian commander in chief, but still the military leaders have to really be the ones mostly to figure out where the military should go in terms of policies and how it deals with different issues or not, I would think.   Chase Spears ** 19:27 And the key word that you hit on there, Michael is leadership. Back a few months ago, I wrote a piece that was published by real clear defense called seven new things the new Sergeant Major of the Army could do to restore trust in the force. And the argument that I made his predecessor was one who was very kind of reactive to the, to the whims you might say, of a the younger generation of soldiers. He was very much all over Twitter about telling me your issues. Let me get involved in your issues. And he was, in some ways a very divisive, senior official in the military. And I equated it to you, you want to look at kind of the British constitutionalist position, the British Crown, if you're looking overseas, it has traditionally been something that it's kind of the rock, unmovable, unshakable, the parliament will do what parliament will do that the Tories and Labour will do what they will do, but the crown is unmovable the crown serves all. And that's kind of something that the military reflected, and I call out to the new rising generation military leaders to remember that, to remember that we don't own this, we owe nothing in the institution, we all leave it one day, as I left it a matter of weeks ago. All I have are my memories and and hopes that I was able to leave some things better than I found them and that the people I served that I hope I served them well. But at the end of the day, we hand it off to someone else. And it's so important for to have good leaders who recognize that we we steward the profession, that we we want to do the best we can with it in our time, and recognize the decisions that we make, will impact those who serve long after our time and do our best to hand it off in the best possible condition that we can for them. Because then to the to society, we returned. And then we depend on this who came after us for our national defense. And so it's the steward mindset to me as key.   Michael Hingson ** 21:41 Yeah. Well, and going back a little bit. So you're in graduate school you got recruited in and accepted and went into the military. What did you do? What was it like when you first went and that certainly again, had to be quite a culture shock from things that you would experience before? Ah,   Chase Spears ** 22:02 yeah, I figured absolutely was you'll never forget your first shark attack at basic training for for anyone who's unfamiliar with that, it's when you once you've done your initial and processing there, whatever base you get your basic training at, for me, it was Fort Jackson in South Carolina. And then they eventually buss you off to your your training companies, which is where you will actually conduct your combat training. This is after you've received your uniforms and done all your finances, paperwork, and life insurance and all that. And then the buses stop and the drill sergeants, they're just there waiting for you. And it's a moment you never forget. And of course, you jump off the bus and they're giving you all these commands that they know it's impossible for you to, to execute to any level of satisfaction. And then when you fail, as you inevitably will, you know, the entire group just gets smoked over and over and over again. And I remember that moment just having that realization of I have not in Kansas anymore, like the next next few months of my life are about to be very different than anything I've ever experienced. And it was it absolutely was. I got through that. And I think the first thing that was really kind of shocking to me be on to the training environment was the use of last names. So yeah, I go by chase my friends call me chase people who know me call me chase. I'm I'm not hung up on titles. I'm a simple guy. In the military, you are your rank and last name. I was specialist Spears sergeants First Lieutenant spears or LT Captain spears, major spears. And I remember at my first unit, there were other other people who in my unit there were the same rank as me. And so I thought were peers I'd call them by their first name. And they never gave me problems about it. But our higher ups would you know, people have rank spears, we don't go by first names spears. And I never I never 20 years and I still never really adjusted well to that I learned how to how to keep myself from getting as many talking to us about it over the years is I had in previous times. But that was a culture shock. And, and just the the constant what we call the military, the battle rhythm, you know, civil society would call it your work schedule, while in the military. It never really ends your day start very early. You have physical training that you're doing with your unit at 630. Depending on what unit you're in, you may be off at a reasonable time in the late afternoon, early evening, or you may be there. I've remember staying at work one night till 4am Just because the boss gave us a job to do. Frankly, it was an unreasonable job. But he gave us a job to do and an extraordinarily tight deadline and it took us till 4am to get the job done and And I was at work by 630, the next morning. So you never, ever really do get used to that in some ways, because you kind of come to accept it. But it's been really eye opening to me in the last nearly three months now that I've been now, looking back and having some control over my schedule now for the first time in 20 years, and realizing, wow, that was such a foreign existence I lived. But when you're when you're swimming in a fishbowl, you don't know you're wet. So every time you do adapt to it, but it's been neat being on the other side and realizing, you know, can kind of breathe in and start to have some say over what a schedule looks like, because I'd forgotten what that was, what that'd be like.   Michael Hingson ** 25:44 But as you rose in the ranks, and I assume took on more responsibility, did that give you any more flexibility in terms of how you operate it on a day to day basis.   Chase Spears ** 25:56 It all depended on the position, there were there were some jobs I had, where were, regardless of the rank, I had flexibility. And then there were other jobs, where I absolutely did not even as a major want, there was a job that I had, where the boss was very adamant. This is the time you will be here and you will be sitting at this desk between these hours and you are authorized authorized is a big term in the military culture, you are authorized a 30 minute lunch break period. And you will be here until this time every day. And this was when I had you know, I think I was at my 1718 year mark. And I remember thinking to myself, golly, do I need to ask permission to go to the bathroom to see, it seemed I didn't. So it really kind of depended on your job. There's a perception a lot of times that the higher you go in rank, the more control you have over your life. And I observed that the opposite is actually true. The higher you go, typically, the more the more demands are placed on you. The more people are depending on the things that you're doing. And and the bigger the jobs are. And the longer the days are was my experience, but it had been flooded depending on what position I was in at the given time.   Michael Hingson ** 27:17 Now, when you first enlisted and all that, what was Laurie's reaction to all of that.   Chase Spears ** 27:23 I was shocked. She was so supportive. She actually grew up in an Air Force household. And so she knew military life pretty well. Her dad had been been in, he spent a lot more time in the air force than I did the army. And then even after he retired from the Air Force, he went on and taught at the Naval Academy as a civilian. So she is just always had a level of familiarity with the military as long as she can remember. She joked with me that when she got married to me and then had to give up her dependent military ID card that it was kind of a moment of mourning for she didn't want to give that thing up. So one day, there we are Knoxville, Tennessee, and I approached her. And I'm trying to be very careful, very diplomatic, very suave, and how I bring it up to her and let her know I've been thinking about the army. And I'm kind of curious what she might think about that. Because it'd be such a drastic lifestyle change from everything we've been talking about. And I was bracing for her to look at me and be like, are you insane? And instead, she was like, Oh, you won't get in the military. And I get an ID card again. Yes. She was she was supportive from from Jump Street. And so you talk about a wife who just was there, every minute of it, and loved and supported and gave grace and rolled with the punches. milori Did she was absolutely phenomenal. Though, I will admit when it got to the point that I was starting to think maybe 20. I'll go ahead and wrap this up, because my original plan had been to do 30. But when I started talking with her about that she was she was also ready, she was ready to actually start having me home regularly for us to be able to start making family plans and be able to follow through with them. Because we had the last three years we had not been able to follow through with family plans, because of the different positions that I was in. So she was very, very supportive of me joining and then she was equally very supportive of me going ahead and and calling it calling it a day here or the last just at the end of this year. But what a what a partner could not have done it   Michael Hingson ** 29:41 without her. So where did she live when you were going through basic training and all that.   Chase Spears ** 29:46 So she stayed in Knoxville for nonGSA. Yeah. And then from there, she actually ended up moving up to her dad's and his wife's place up in Maryland because my follow on school after base See training was the Defense Information School. That's where all the Public Affairs courses are taught. And it's so happens that that is located at Fort Meade, Maryland, which is just about a 45 minute drive traffic dependent from where her dad lived. So while I was in basic training, she went ahead and moved up there to Maryland so that while I was in school up there, we could see each other on the weekends. And then from there, we didn't have to go back to Tennessee and pack up a house or stuff was already packed up so we could get on the road together there to wherever our next duty station was. And it turned out funny enough to be Colorado Springs, Fort Carson. And here's why that's funny. When, when I approached Laurie, about joining the army, one of the things that she was really excited about was seeing the world if you're in the military, you get to see the world, right. And my first duty assignment was the town that she had grown up in, because her dad had spent the last few years of his career teaching at the Air Force Academy there on the northern end of Colorado Springs. So so her her dreams of seeing the world with me, turned out that our first tour was going to write back home for her.   Michael Hingson ** 31:14 Oh, that has its pluses and it's minuses.   Chase Spears ** 31:17 Yep. So it was neat for me to get to see where she had grown up and learn the town little bit.   Michael Hingson ** 31:23 I've been to Fort Meade, and actually a few times I used to sell technology to folks there. And then several years ago, I was invited to come in after the World Trade Center and do a speech there. And so it was it was fun spending some time around Fort Meade heard some wonderful stories. My favorite story still is that one day somebody from the city of Baltimore called the fort because they wanted to do traffic studies or get information to be able to do traffic studies to help justify widening roads to better help traffic going into the fort. So they call it the fort. And they said, Can you give us an idea of how many people come through each day? And the person at the other end said, Well, I'm really not sure what you're talking about. We're just a little shack out here in the middle of nowhere. And so they ended up having to hire their own people to count cars for a week, going in and out of the fort was kind of cute.   Chase Spears ** 32:23 Well, there's quite a bit of traffic there. Now that basis when   Michael Hingson ** 32:26 I was then to there wasn't just a little shack, of course, it was a whole big forest.   Chase Spears ** 32:32 Yeah, yeah, it's I was back there. Golly, I want to say it wasn't that long ago. But it was about five years ago now is back there. And I almost didn't recognize the place. There's been so much new built there. But oh, I know, as far as army assignments go, it's a it's a pretty nice place.   Michael Hingson ** 32:50 Yeah, it is. And as I said, I've had the opportunity to speak there and spend some time dealing with folks when we sold products and so on. So got to got to know, people, they're pretty well and enjoyed dealing with people there. They knew what they were doing. Yeah,   Chase Spears ** 33:07 yeah, that's a it's a smart group of people in that base.   Michael Hingson ** 33:10 So you went through basic training and all that and what got you into the whole idea of public relations and what you eventually went into?   Chase Spears ** 33:20 Well, I had studied in college, my undergraduate degree was in television and radio broadcasting. My master's was in journalism, I'd grown up kind of in the cable news age, and the at the age of the emergence of am Talk Radio is a big, big tool of outreach. And I grew up thinking, this is what I want to do. I love communication. I actually thought it'd be really neat to be an investigative reporter on if, if you remember, back in the 90s, it was this big thing of, you know, Channel Nine on your side, yeah, had this investigative reporter who tell you the real deal about the restaurant or the automotive garage. And I always thought that would be amazing, like what a great public service like helping people to avoid being ripped off. And so I wanted to be a news. I'm sure you're familiar with the Telecom Act of 1996. That That caused a tremendous consolidation of media for your audience who might not be familiar with it. It used to be that really, if you had the wherewithal to buy a media station or a television station or radio station, you were unlimited in what you could you there were limits, I should say on what you could buy, so that you couldn't control too much, too much media environment, the Telecom Act of 1996, completely deregulated that and so large media companies were just swallowing up the nation. And that meant there's a tremendous consolidation of jobs and the my junior year in college. I was in the southeast us at the time at Lee University. Atlanta. Nearby was our biggest hiring media market, my June Your year CNN laid off 400 people. So I could tell really quick, this is going to be a chat and even more challenging field to break into than I thought. And that's why I ended up working part time in a law firm was in, in Journalism School. Afterwards, because I was looking great. I was looking for a backup plan. I thought if journalism doesn't work out, I also love the law. It'd be nice to get some experience working in a firm to see if I want to go to law school. So it was a natural fit for me when the army recruiter started talking to me. And he was asking me what I was interested in. And I told him, Well, here's what my degree is in, here's what my career plan had been, here's who I really want to do with my life. And he said, we have public affairs, I said, What's that? It turns out, the military has radio stations, and they have television networks and you PR, I had no idea. I was a civilian. And I was like, Well, that sounds good. And so I thought, yeah, sure, I'll I will enlist for that come in, do one four year contract, I'll build a portfolio and and then I'll be able to take that portfolio out into the civilian realm. And hopefully that will make me more competitive for a job in the news market. And of course, a couple of years into that. I was in Kuwait deployed to camp Arif John. And my brigade commander sat me down to lunch one day, and made it very clear that he expected me to apply for Officer Candidate School, which was nowhere on what I was interested in doing was nowhere on my radar, I applied, I really didn't have a lot of confidence. I thought, I looked at officers and I thought they were people who are way, way more intelligent than me, way more suave than me. And I really didn't know if I'd get in, well, I got in. And after I commissioned officer candidate school is about like basic training all over again. So that was fun. And I ended up being assigned to a combat camera unit. And then afterwards, I was able to put my paperwork in to branch transfer right back into public affairs, it was a perfect mess was everything I wanted to do. I didn't get to work in news directly. I wasn't a reporter. But I got to work with reporters, I got to be an institutional insider and help facilitate them and help to tell the stories of what some great American patriots were doing, and wanting to serve their countries. And so it was, for the most part, more often than not, it was a really, really fun way to earn a living living.   Michael Hingson ** 37:34 I collect as a hobby old radio shows I'm very familiar with but back in the 40s was the Armed Forces Radio Service, then it became Armed Forces Radio and Television Service. And so I'm aware a little bit of, of the whole broadcast structure in the military, not a lot, but but some and know that that it's there. And it does, I'm suspect, a really good job of helping to keep people informed as much as it can as they can with the things that they have to do in the world. It's   Chase Spears ** 38:04 definitely it's a comfort over the years, if you're spending a lot of time overseas to have kind of that that taste of home and our forces network does a really good job of that letting I think we're starting to see some debates inside the military. Now. What do we want to continue of it? Because now information is so ubiquitous, if you will, you can pull it down, you can stream whatever you want, wherever you are in the globe. So I kind of wonder in the next 1020 years, will it still be a thing, but during my early career during my early deployment before he could stream stuff, it was really cool to have an AFN radio station to tune into is really cool to have an AFN television network to tune into to be able to get a taste of home. That was much a comfort,   Michael Hingson ** 38:52 right? Yeah, it is. It is something that helps. So you can't necessarily stream everything. I spent a week in Israel this summer. And there were broadcasts I could get and pick up through the internet and so on. And there were stuff from here in the US that I couldn't get I suspect it has to do with copyright laws and the way things were set up but there was only so much stuff that you could actually do.   Chase Spears ** 39:20 And what a time to be in Israel you will I bet that trip is even more memorable for you now than it would have been otherwise.   Michael Hingson ** 39:27 Fortunately, it wasn't August. So we we didn't have to put up with the things that are going on now. But still Yeah, it was very memorable. I enjoyed doing it. spending a week with excessively over there and got into getting to meet with with all the folks so it was definitely well worth it and something that that I will always cherish having had the opportunity to do get   Chase Spears ** 39:51 for you. If it's on my bucket list. I've always wanted to spend some time over there.   Michael Hingson ** 39:56 Hot and humid in the summer, but that's okay. Let's say but they love breakfast. Oh, really? So yeah, definitely something to think about. Well, so you, you joined you got you got the public relations, jobs and so on. So how did all that work for you over? Well, close to 20 years? What all did you do and what, what stories can you tell us about some of that?   Chase Spears ** 40:25 It was it was fascinating. It was fascinating because everything that I got to touch was, in some way a story. And so my first job was in radio and television production. I did quite a bit of that in Kuwait. And it was actually there that I got my first taste of crisis communication, and I was immediately addicted. Do you remember back in? It was December 2004. Donald Rumsfeld said you go to war with the Army you have not the army want or might wish to have it another time? Yeah. I was there. That that was uttered in camp you're in Kuwait. And that was such an interesting moment. For me in terms of a story to tell. I was with the 14 Public Affairs Detachment we were deployed to camp Arif John to provide public affairs support for for Third Army's Ford headquarters. This was back during the height of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. And so there's a lot of military going over there. We were part of that. And I remember hearing this tasking that had come down that the Secretary of Defense is going to come out here is going to do this town hall meeting with the troops. There's going to be no question that you can't ask. You're going to be allowed to say anything you want to say to the Secretary of Defense, nothing's going to be scripted, nothing's going to be put through for review. And by the way, 14 pad you guys are going to make sure that it can be televised live back to the United States. And so here I am thinking what can possibly go wrong. And so we helped we all the event, Secretary Rumsfeld hindered and handled it really, really well. They set up this big, you know, fighting machinery display, they're in a in a big aircraft hangar epic camp bearing which is in northern Kuwait, just not too far south from the Iraqi border. And he gets up he gives the speech. He's well received by the troops. And it goes to the q&a part. And soldiers were asking him all sorts of questions. Most of them are jovial, you know, hey, when when do we get to go to Disney World, stuff like that. They were kind of big jocular with them.   Michael Hingson ** 42:42 Seems a fair question.   Chase Spears ** 42:44 Yeah, you know, I felt them right. And so finally, this one guy, I'll never forget his name, especially as Thomas Wilson from the 2/78 Regimental Combat Team. Tennessee National Guard asks him a question about when are they going to get the body armor that's needed? And in true Rumsfeld style, he's he says, Well, I'm not quite sure I understood the question. Can you ask it again, which is a great technique. He used to buy him some time to think the answer. And then it came back after the second question. And the whole hangar about 1000 of us in there. It was hast. I'll bet you could have heard a plastic cup hit the floor at the back back of the room. I mean, everyone was like, what? Oh, no, what just happened? What's about to happen? And Rumsfeld makes that remark, you go to war with the army have not the one you want or need. Yeah. And and then the questions went on. And there was not be after that. There was no awkward moment for the rest of the time. And I and I thought, wow, that could have gone south. But it didn't cool. It was just it was neat to watch. I was running the television camera that caught the moment. I was in the room. And so we me and my sergeant had to stay up there the rest of the day because there were some other television network interviews with other officials that we were running the satellite transponder for. And it was a long day our commander was kind of being a jerk to us. So by the end of the day, we were tired we'd been up there sleeping on cots for a couple of days, we were kind of just ready to get back to data camp Arif, John to our beds and put the whole mission behind us. And then we drive to three hours through this pouring pouring rainstorm in Kuwait, and a Canvas side Humvee that's leaking. All you know, water just pouring into this thing on us. So we're done. We're done. We're done. We're like, we just want to get a bed. We get back to our base. We're offloading all the equipment, putting everything away. And at this point in time, I forgotten about the moment earlier in the day when that question was asked, and I walk in and there we had this wall of televisions you know, tracking all the different news networks back in the US and on all of them Their Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, you go to war with the army have not the army won or wish to have another time. And at that moment, I was like, it's about to be an interesting few weeks around here. And it turned out, it turned out indeed to be an interesting few weeks, an interesting few months. And I got to be on the front end of what the public affairs response to that looks like. And I can tell you, I've never seen armored vehicles flow into a place as quickly as they did in the following month. So the power of a message transmitted is a real thing. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 45:39 so whatever happened to specialist Wilson?   Chase Spears ** 45:44 I don't I don't know. I know that news coverage. When that news reporters were asking that very question and coverage that I saw said, Oh, his unit, his assured that nothing bad will happen to him. He was a national guardsmen, so he kind of fall under a different, different command structure than us. From time to time, I have wondered that and I've tried to look him up online, and just try to find out what happened to the sky and what was life like for him? I'd love to talk to him and ask alright, what was it like, man, what is your unit do? But I, I have no idea. I can't find him. I presume he's gone about his life and doesn't want to be famous about it. But it also goes back to National Guard culture versus active duty culture. We talked earlier about the citizenship aspect. And the National Guard gets that way more than the active component. At the end of the day, they demobilize. And they go home. Right, you're running into the same people you serve, with the church, at the grocery store, at the grocery store, at the PTA, places like this, some of them might be your neighbors. And so they have an entirely different outlook. This is what they do to serve the country when needed. And then they go on about their lives. I don't think you would have seen an active duty soldier ask that question. I really don't because the culture is so so markedly different. And there's a level of kind of freedom of thought and expression, present that guard that that is much more lacking in the active component.   Michael Hingson ** 47:19 Should there be more freedom, in that sense in the active component? Or do you think that it's really appropriate for there to be the dichotomy that you're describing?   Chase Spears ** 47:32 And the act of force you need discipline? You need a discipline force, who, when they're given a lawful order, will carry it out hastily, because lives could hang in the balance. That's absolutely important, and we can never lose that. But sometimes we can use discipline I say sometimes, often, more is the more appropriate term often we confuse discipline with silence. We confuse discipline with a lack of willingness to ask tough questions. We confuse discipline with just saying Yes, sir. When you know, in the back of your mind, there might be something you need to dig into more. We we need, unfortunately, since the end of the Second World War, going back to my comments earlier about this large, industrialized, institutionalized force we have it breeds careerists. It breeds a mindset that's fearful to ask tough questions, even if you know they need to be asked. Because you want to be promoted. Right? You want to get assignments, right. And it breeds a culture where you really are much more timid. Or you're much more likely to be timid than someone who's maybe a reservist or National Guard member. We need people who will ask tough questions. We don't need indiscipline, we don't rush showmanship, we don't need people who are being performative just to be seen. But there are valid questions to be asked is, you know, is US defense policy? Better set for a 400? Ship navy or a 300? Ship? Navy? That's a valid question. Is it better for us to use this route of attack versus that route of attack? Given the Give Me Everything we know, those are valid questions. We need people in the military who who are willing to be critical thinkers, and there are a lot of extraordinarily brilliant people in today's armed forces, as there always has been. But there is on the active duty side a culture that works against original thought and that's really to our detriment. And I think the manner in which the evacuation of Afghanistan ended is one more blatant indicator of that.   Michael Hingson ** 49:48 It was not handled nearly as well as it could have been as we have seen history tell us and teach us now   Chase Spears ** 49:56 Absolutely. i It broke my heart. I'm A veteran of that conflict I'm not one who cries easily, Michael but I can tell you that morning when I saw the some of the images coming out of cobbles especially there's a video of a C 17 cargo jet taking off and people literally hanging to and falling to their deaths. Just i i fell off, I fell off my on my run into a sobbing human being on this on the ground for a little bit it is there's a lot to process and it has continued to be a lot to process. And there again, there's a great example of why you gotta be willing to ask tough questions. There was no no reason at all. We should have abandoned Bagram and tried to evacuate out of downtown Cabo. But that's a whole nother conversation. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 50:52 Well, speaking of you, I understand that you weren't a great fan of jumping out of airplanes, but you got used to doing them? I   Chase Spears ** 51:01 sure did. Oh, yeah. I always thought that would just be something that no, I don't want to say no sane person would do. I mean, I enjoy watching skydivers, I think it's really cool. And obviously, they're saying, I never thought I'd be among them. I thought, Nah, that's just something, I don't think I'm gonna do that. And when I was an officer candidate school, I was roommates with a guy who had been to Airborne School earlier in his career. And he was like, man, don't do it. Don't let him talk you into going to Airborne School, though, you'll be stuck at Fort Bragg, you'll just you'll be broke all the time, you'll be hurting all the time, the army takes the fun out of everything. And he's right. To an extent the army does take the fun out of most things that touches. But I got to my first unit as an officer. So I'd done enlisted time for three years, then I went to Officer Candidate School. And then my first job as an officer was at the 55th combat camera company, which is not a full airborne unit, but it's a partial airborne unit. And they had a hard time keeping enough active duty paratroopers on hand. And so I remember day one, when I was in processing the unit, there are all these different places you go, when you're in process, you gotta go see the training room, and you got to go see the administrative room, and you got to go see the Transportation Office and all these places, and they're just checking your paperwork. And so I see the training room, and there's the sergeant in there. And he's looking through my list. And he's asking me all these questions, you know, when was your last PT test? Where's the last physical, you know, making notes on me for the unit record? And then he says, Do you want to go to Airborne School? And without thinking, I said, Absolutely not. I have no interest in going to Airborne School. And his reply to me was go ahead and get an airborne physical. And I thought, There's no way I'm ever getting an airborne physical because I'm not going to Airborne School. So a few weeks later, I'm in the unit, I'm more comfortable. And I'm across. I'm in a different office across the hall from where this guy worked. And I'm joking around with this other sergeant. And I'm like, sir, and you're just such a cool guy. Like you've got all together, you're, you're like everything I want to be when I grow up. What how do you do it? He said, Well, sir, you got to go to Airborne School. That's step one. The other guy across the hall ever hears that, you know, mouse ears, I don't know how. But he darts out of his office across the hall into this opposite we're in, looks me straight in the face and said, Did you say you want to go to Airborne School? Like no, is not what I said, I absolutely have no interest. I'm not going to Airborne School. And he again replies with schedule your physical. And I thought, I'm not going to disappoint me scheduling a fiscal. So I get back to my office that later that day. And I thought this guy is not going to give up. So I came up with this brilliant plan. It was smart, smartest plan you'll ever hear of, I'm going to pretend I'm going to get my airborne physical and then he'll forget about me, leave me alone. So I called him and said, Hey, Sergeant, what's the phone number I have to call them schedule an airborne physical and it gives me the phone number and the the name of the person to talk to and I said, Great. I'll talk to him. There were two or three other lieutenants set to show up to the unit next in the next month. So I thought he will assume I'm getting a physical which I'm not getting and there's other guys will show up and he will convince them to go and I will fall off his radar. I was incorrect. That was a bad bad miscalculation on my part, you might say a flawed operation   Michael Hingson ** 54:39 with your the and you were the one who was talking about brilliant people in the army Anyway, go ahead.   Chase Spears ** 54:43 I know I know. Right? Yeah, I am a paradox. And so that within an hour I get an email from him with my he's already put me in for school. I already have orders generated to go to jump school. And then he calls me he's like Hey, by the way, your report in like three weeks, I need your physical as soon as you can get it. And I thought this guy, I told him I'm not going to Airborne School. Well, at the same time, our unit commander was a paratrooper, and he loves jumping out of airplanes. And I had two or three paratroopers in my platoon who were underneath me. And I thought, There's no way I can go now. Because if I, if I get the commander to release me, one, I'll lose face with the old man. And I'll lose face with the troops that I lead because the soldiers have to compete for this. They're just giving it to me. And so I went, protesting, kicking, screaming the whole way. I hated ground week. I hated tower week. And then they put took me up to the 250 foot tower and dropped me off the side of it under a parachute. And I loved it. I was like, Oh, this is fun. I actually asked if I can do it again. And they said, they don't get what's right. So the next week, we go into jump week in there I am in the back of an airplane, and it comes to my turn to get up and exit it. And I do, and I get to the ground and I survive. And I literally just sat there and laughed uncontrollably because I couldn't believe I just jumped out of a plane. And it was my first of 40 jobs. So I was I was absolutely hooked from that moment on.   Michael Hingson ** 56:20 And what did Lori think of that?   Chase Spears ** 56:23 She was a little bit surprised. She She again, was supportive. But she was surprised she never thought it's something that I would take to and it ended up being a great thing for us. Because having been on jumped status, it opened the door for me to request the unit and Alaska that we ended up going to for six years, you had to be on airborne status to be able to go to that job. And so had I not going to jump school, I would not have qualified to go into Alaska for that particular job. And so it ended up being a wonderful, wonderful thing. But I would have never guessed it, it just it's another one of those poignant reminders to me that every time that I think I've got a plan, it's God's way of reminding me that he has a sense of humor, because what's going to work out is always going to be very different from what I think.   Michael Hingson ** 57:10 And you help Laurie see the world. So well worked out. Absolutely.   Chase Spears ** 57:15 Yeah, she we never, we never got to spend time together overseas. But Alaska was an amazing adventure. And, gosh, if if no one in your listeners haven't been there yet to go see a Sunday?   Michael Hingson ** 57:29 Yeah, I went there on a cruise I didn't see as much as I would have loved to but still, I got to see some of them. It was great.   Chase Spears ** 57:38 It's nothing like it. No. Now you   Michael Hingson ** 57:42 as you advance in the ranks, and so on you, you started being in public relations, being a communicator, and so on. But clearly, as you advanced, you became more and I'm sure were viewed as more of a leader that was kind of a transition from from not being a leader. And just being a communicator and doing what you were told to be more of a leader, what was that transition like?   Chase Spears ** 58:07 That was another one of those things that I would have never seen coming. After I did my three years as the spokesman for the Airborne Brigade. In Alaska, I ended up becoming the deputy communication director for US Army, Alaska, which was the highest army command there in the state responsible for 11,000 troops and their families in multiple locations. And I remember one day, my boss came to me and saying, hey, the general is going to give a speech to the hockey team at the University of Alaska, about leadership. And so I need you to write it. And I looked at him and I said, boss, all right, whatever he told me to write, but the general has forgotten more about leadership than I know, like, how do where do I start with this? And I don't remember the exact words, I think it was something to the effect of, you're smart, you'll figure it out. And so I put together a speech, it was by no means anything glorious, but it was the best I had to give that moment in time and what leadership was fully convinced that I was not one. And then over time, I there are people who spoken to me at their headquarters who called out leadership that I didn't see they were pointing out influence that I had there pointing out people who I was able to help steer towards decisions that I didn't realize that I didn't know and it made me start looking back in other parts of my career and realizing, Oh, my goodness, I actually led that team. This man actually looks to me for decisions. I actually I am a leader, I had no idea. There's something I always thought if if you were in the military and you're a leader, you were some grand master, you know, like, like Patton or Eisenhower and I didn't think think myself anything like that. And so finally, in 2015, I was offered A chance to take command of a company which in civilian terms, that's kind of like being the executive director, if you will, of an organization of 300 people. And I was so excited for it. Because by that point in time, I finally made the mental transition of saying, I'm not, I'm not merely a communicator, communicating is what I've done. But occasionally it's I've worked on delivering us on passionate about, by came to realize, I love that so much because communicating is a part of leading and, and I, I am a leader, it's just something. Looking back. Of course, my life has always been there, I just never knew it. I never saw it, I never believed in it. And so by the time I was offered the chance to command, I was very excited for it, I was very eager for it, because I realized this is going to be an a wonderful adventure getting to lead a team at this level of this size. And it was the hardest job I ever did in the army, and the most rewarding. I don't know if you've ever watched any of the Lord, Lord of the Rings movie. But there's this moment where Aragon is being chided, is set aside the Ranger Be who you were meant to be to be the king. And that meant that came back to my mind several times I had to challenge myself that just because I only see myself as a communicator all these years doesn't mean that I can't do other things. And so it was a joy to actually walk into that. Believing is not easy. There's there are a lot of hard days or a lot of hard decisions. Especially when I was a commander, I agonized every decision. So I made because I knew this will have an impact on a person, this will have an impact on a family this, this will change the directions and plans that people had. And so it's a heavy weight to bear. And I think it's good that those kind of decisions come with weight. And I would question someone who who can make those kinds of calls without having to wrestle with them.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:01 When you look at all the things that you've done, and the work that you do, and the work that you did, at the end of every day, or at some time during the day, I know you were pretty busy. But did you ever have the time to just kind of sit back and reflect on how did this go today? How did that go? What could have been better? Did you do any kind of introspection? Or did you feel you had time to do that?   Chase Spears ** 1:02:24 I didn't really feel I had time. And it would be easy for me to blame the unit, it'd be easy for me to blame people. But that responsibility rests with me. It's a discipline that I didn't develop until way too late in my career. And I eventually did develop it, I eventually came to realize the importance of reflection of introspection of taking a mental inventory of what I've accomplished I didn't accomplish and what I can learn from it. But it was sadly something that I didn't do as much as I should have. And I didn't do it as early, I was really, really bad at assuming well, because the unit needs this right now. I can't take care of this thing that I need to take care of that will that will allow me to be the leader that I need to be you know, I get in a car, someone slams on my car, and I need to get them to take care of it. Why don't have time unit Scott has to have me We gotta move on. Well, I've got six screws in my left hand and my left shoulder right now because I was always too busy to listen to the physical therapist and take care of myself, you know, the unit needs me the unit needs me the men need me. And so it, it was a hard, hard learned lesson. The importance of sitting back and reflecting is something I wish I would have learned much sooner. But once I did, it served me well. And it's a discipline that I still practice now.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:46 Yeah, yeah, it's, I think a very important thing. And a lot of things can can stem from that. What's the best position your favorite position in the army and why?   Chase Spears ** 1:03:59 The best thing I ever got to do is company command. And it's hard to say that because it's really it's really closely tied with being a brigade director of communication. And that's a thankless hard job. But I had the best team for the brigade communication job. But the reason I'd say company command and just that out and it just just slightly edges it out is the people. When you're when you're in command, you have the chance to serve well. There's no other job in the army, where you your entire existence is to serve people. Now, part of that means driving them challenging them disciplining them when necessary. But there's always a chance to serve. There's always someone who's going to need your counsel who's going to need the authority that only you can wield because you're the commander and I took it as a matter of personal pride when people would come be like Sir, I need to talk To you, I've got an issue. And a lot of times wasn't anything official that I could help them with. They just needed an ear. And they they associated that position. Whoever's in the commander seat is someone who they give credence to, they assume that someone who can help me with an issue, so I will go to them with this issue, regardless of whether there's anything formally or not, that can or can't be done. And so that was, that was without a doubt, my best job. My senior rater in that job was the deputy commander of sustainment for US Army, Alaska, wonderful man named Sean Reid. And he was a brigade commander equivalent. And he had commanded a full brigade before that. So this was his third high level command. But he often told me, I'd give up the rank right now, if I could be a battalion commander, because there's just nothing like commanding at that level and having soldiers who will who are there and need your help, and you can serve them well. And I so came to identify with that. And when I left the job, I was going on to a fellowship at Georgetown University. And I was sure that at some point in my career, I would command again, I was already lining it up in my mind, I had no idea that that was kind of going to be the beginning of the transition period for us. But it's something I've always treasured, and I always will.   Michael Hingson ** 1:06:22 So you, you've been a student for a while? And are you? Are you a professional student?   Chase Spears ** 1:06:29 No, no, no. I spit. It's such wording. My my father in law himself, a PhD, once teased me, he said, Chase, you seem an awful lot like a professional student. Because really, for all intents and purposes, I have been in graduate school for seven consecutive years now between my fellowship at Georgetown University, my time at the US Army's Command and General Staff College, and now this doctoral program at Kansas State University. And I didn't plan it that way. So I always push back. I'm like, No, I'm not a professional student, I held a job through every bit of that, and I had life and I support a family. And school was my hobby. So I joke with people that I have a problem, I have a problem with school, and I have a problem with books, you know, some people buy boats, I buy books, or you go ski on the weekends I study, it's just it's, I have a problem. I am very, very much looking forward to being done. Lord willing, I will defend my dissertation in late March, and go to commencement in May. And while I love learning, and I will always be a learner, I do not expect to be rushing into another formal program, at least for quite some time, I'm ready to enjoy my personal time again.   Michael Hingson ** 1:07:52 Well, we should never stop learning, although it doesn't necessarily need to be as you're pointing out in a formal sense like that? Well, I want to thank you for taking all this time to be with us and giving us a lot of insights and a lot of wisdom and talking to us about some subjects that we don't necessarily talk about a lot. But it's fun to learn about. And I really appreciate all the time you've taken. If people want to reach out to you and talk with you in any way. How do they do that? Yeah, so   Chase Spears ** 1:08:22 they feel free to reach out to me, I'm on Twitter at Chase M Spears. I'm on LinkedIn at m slash Chase hyphen, Spears. So those are, those are the two channels I'm the most active on. So feel free to reach out to me there and link up and I love engaging with people and doing what I can to help.   Michael Hingson ** 1:08:41 Well, super. And I really can tell you are a great storyteller. You do love to engage. And I value that and really value the time that we've been able to spend with with doing that today. So thanks very much for doing it. And I want to thank you for listening. We really appreciate you taking the time to join us today. I hope that chases give me some interesting things to think about. And you will follow through and learn a lot more from him or whatever. I'd love to hear from you as well. Of course, we'd like a five star rating from you if you would please do so wherever you're listening to us on unstoppable mindset. We do appreciate your five star ratings and your comments please pass them along. I want to thank you for being here. You can reach me, Michael Hingson at Michael m i c h a e l h i at accessibe A C C E S S I B E.com. Or go to our website, our podcast website WWW dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. And it's m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. So either way, we'd love to hear from you and we really appreciate you spending the time with us. And if you have any ideas of anyone else who might be able to be a good guest for Rs, we'd love to hear from you. And same for you chase if you know anybody else who ought to be a guest. We'd love you to pass things along. We're always looking for people who have great stories and insights to bring us. So I want to thank you all again and chase you one last time. Thank you very much for being here with us. It's   Chase Spears ** 1:10:17 been a joy. I appreciate you letting me tell my story.   Michael Hingson ** 1:10:24   You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. 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