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Chris Jamroz is the CEO and chair of the board of Roadrunner, a less than truck load, (LTL) trucking company. You get to learn, as I did, all about this industry as described by a fascinating man who clearly understands leadership and how to build companies as he did with Roadrunner and other companies before his current one. Chris was born in Polland. Throughout his life he also has lived in France, England, Canada and now he calls the United States home. Chris tells us that he greatly values the American way of life and finds that here he, and the rest of us, can exercise our entrepreneurial spirit like nowhere else in the world. As I said, we get to learn about the trucking industry with Chris. He also talks about the economy in general including discussing the forces that lead to events such as recessions and successes. Chris and I even discuss AI and how it will in some ways affect his industry. Chris is quite a thought-provoking individual. I learned a lot not only about his industry, but I gained knowledge about management and leadership. I think you too will value greatly from listening to our conversation. About the Guest: Chris Jamroz is the Executive Chairman of the Board and CEO at Roadrunner. Chris is a highly experienced executive focused on creating shareholder value through active executive management of portfolio companies in transportation, logistics and cyber security. Chris has made great contributions to the open office environment and culture at Roadrunner. Previously, Chris served as the Executive Chairman of the Board and CEO at Ascent, a privately-owned freight forwarding and domestic brokerage services provider. Chris has led the transformative investment in GlobalX (TSXV: JET), a full-service passenger and cargo airline headquartered in Miami, FL. He is the founding partner of LyonIX Holdings LLC, a specialty investment, equipment leasing and direct operations private fund. Before coming to Roadrunner, Chris served in executive roles at Emergent Cold, STG Logistics, and Garda Cash Logistics. He also serves as Governor of the Royal Ontario Museum (‘ROM’), Canada’s largest museum. Chris is a lifelong advocate of education, promoting diversity, equity & inclusion, and mentorship. Chris has been a tenured mentor to students at Schulich School of Business. He holds a BA in Business Studies with First Class Honors (Summa Cum Laude) from Birmingham City University in the UK as well as an MBA with Distinction from York University in Canada. Ways to connect with Chris: LinkedIn linkedin.com/in/christopherjamroz Contact email chris.jamroz@rrts.com Roadrunner Company Website www.RoadrunnerLTL.com About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi everyone, and once again, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We get to interview, well, not interview, because it's the conversation, of course, but we get to talk with Chris Jamroz, who is the executive chair and the board and CEO of Roadrunner. Ah, Chris, it must be lonely at the top, Chris Jamroz ** 01:43 but it's Thank you for having me, Michael and to keep my company. Michael Hingson ** 01:49 There you go. Well, we're really glad that you're here, and I'm glad that we have a chance to visit. It's been a while in coming. I know you've been pretty busy. We we originally chatted last December, but now we get to do it, and that's fine. So I'm really appreciative of your time, and this is all about you and talking about being unstoppable and so on, and so to start that, why don't you tell me a little bit of kind of, maybe, about the early Chris growing up and all that sort of stuff. Chris Jamroz ** 02:21 So little Chris was born in Poland, behind the at that time the Iron Curtain under the socialist regime dominated by the Soviets. And little Chris spent his childhood dreaming of playing with real cars and dreaming of having a vehicle, which was a luxurious scarcity back then in that part of the world, and and looking through the Disney Disney movies, I learned a lot about Road Runner, so little that I knew that 40 years later, Road Runner will die be part of my path. But that journey has taken me through being a farmhand in France, a student in England, a banker in Canada, all the way to be an honest operator in the United States, when I finally make my way over to this greatest country on Earth, Michael Hingson ** 03:19 well, and I agree it's the greatest country, and I hope we continue to do great things. I know we're working at it, and sometimes we all tend to take some missteps, but it all balances in the end. And I think that's one of the neat things about democracy, and I'm sure you have a lot of thoughts about that, as opposed to what life was like in the Iron Curtain, Chris Jamroz ** 03:42 I certainly do. And while we do have our challenges here, and they are undeniable, the spirit of American people is the force to be reckoned with, and one of the most inspirational forces I've ever encountered my life. Michael Hingson ** 03:56 There's a lot of creativity here, and it shows and it continues to advance, and I'm sure that it will, least, that's my belief in the in the whole system, which is cool well, so you have been in a variety of countries, and I'm sort of curious, having had experience in Everything from Poland through France and England and Canada. And here, how would you come other than the country and the politics? How would you compare life in in those different countries? And what did it teach you? Chris Jamroz ** 04:34 I think, listen every every country has the unique history and culture and customs. Which argument wants life experiences when you have a chance to immerse yourself and in the local context, and if you do it truthfully, and not necessarily from a tourist vantage point, but as a as a person who tried to fit into the society. And performs, you know, a function or role, or whatever that may be. I think that that enriches one's lives. At the end of the day, you know, when you think about history, these two are all men and women brave enough to board, you know, ships and embark on a voyage to an unknown. We're willing to cut ties with everything they've ever known and the history and legacy and potential prosecution and all those things that may have not been kind to them or they were escaping from and come to North America and make the United States their home and start fresh. And what I do love about that the nation that now I call home, is that unstoppable force of entrepreneurialism, resourcefulness, resilience, that truly burning desire to accomplish something remarkable with with your life. And that's I've never experienced that anywhere else in the world. Michael Hingson ** 06:01 I've been blessed since escaping from the World Trade Center back on September 11. I've been blessed to be able to travel to a variety of countries and speak and one of the things that I very much enjoy is experiencing different cultures and different attitudes. And sometimes I may not necessarily agree with them, but it isn't about agreement. It's really about understanding and broadening one's horizons and understanding. And I think it's so important to be able to do that, to really understand where various people come from and how they live and what they do. And you know, even in the US, it is such a large country that the way you experience life in Florida or West Virginia is different than what we experience in California. And it is not to say that one way is better or worse than another. It's just all part of the same country. And what's wonderful is to see all of it meld together Chris Jamroz ** 07:01 Absolutely, absolutely, and it's, Michael Hingson ** 07:04 and it's so much fun to be able to do that, but you said that you originally learned about Road Runner a long time ago. And how did that happen? Or what, what did you learn? Or how did you experience Road Runner years ago? Chris Jamroz ** 07:17 Oh, that was, I was just being a little bit joking of watching Disney cartoons, and you know, got Michael Hingson ** 07:24 it? Okay? Wiley Coyote. As I said, there you go. Wiley Chris Jamroz ** 07:28 Coyote, but later that, I knew that would become such an important part of my adult life. Michael Hingson ** 07:33 So do you find Wile E Coyote creeping up every so often today we Chris Jamroz ** 07:38 do have we divided teams between Wiley coyotes and Roadrunners, and we have a contest and and a very healthy rivalry going between the two groups and, but it is, you know, it is nice to have something that is so embedded, and an industry culture and the name is so well known, and, and we Finding, and I think we found a way back to the original glory days of the beginning and the excitement and that kind of youthful and youthful excitement about our brand, which is a delight to me right now. Michael Hingson ** 08:16 I suppose one of the advantages of watching Roadrunner years ago in another country, is that, since it was really a cartoon with very little, if any, talking, it was easy to show without having to worry about translators. Chris Jamroz ** 08:32 But there's, there's a lot of lessons from that Michael to think about sure that that little, that little bugger, was resilient, and, oh, he was absent, and there's, there's a lot of valuable lessons to never let, never let the circumstances get you down, and always find a way to come back on top. Michael Hingson ** 08:50 And no matter which Acme Company Wiley Coyote went to to get something that never worked, correct. I was in Montreal once, and turned on the TV. It was late morning, and there I was listening to the Flintstones in French, which didn't help me a lot, not speaking French, but it was fun to to know that the Flintstones are in different languages. Yeah, Chris Jamroz ** 09:17 that's true. Our chief operating officer Hey, it's from Montreal, and he's now, obviously stateside, but there's and now we've, since we've opened service to the French Province of Canada, we maintain those links, and it's very interesting when we encounter French language in our daily emails and communications, it just gives us the the indication of the the fastness of the culture and and the customs across even this North American continent that we share, which Michael Hingson ** 09:50 is really cool. I was in British Columbia in early October of 2001 I had been invited up to. Because people heard about my story, and I went to a guide dog organization that asked me to come and speak. And we got there on Saturday, and the next day, we were down in the hotel restaurant having breakfast when the news hit the TV screens that the United States had invaded Afghanistan. What a strange feeling to be, not only away from home, but in a foreign country, when our country was responding as they did, and invaded Afghanistan because of september 11, it was, it was a strange feeling. But at the same time, people were so supportive, which was a wonderful feeling, and mostly that was the case. There were a few people who said, well, America got what they deserve, and they were really shut down pretty quickly around Canada. Chris Jamroz ** 10:53 That's correct, that's correct. Yeah. That was a very special time in our show history, Michael Hingson ** 10:58 yeah, yeah, it was and it was strange we when we were at the airport in Newark getting ready to fly across country to Canada. It was Saturday, and the airport was pretty empty, and as my wife said, it's strange to see these 18 year olds with machine guns strapped to their bodies patrolling the airport and And nevertheless, it was, it was an interesting time. Well, Chris Jamroz ** 11:31 strange to us here is actually a common occurrence, and yeah, many places around the globe to see those young men and women patrol airports and train stations with machine guides ready to be deployed Michael Hingson ** 11:43 well, and as my wife said, The problem is these kids probably don't even look old enough to know how to really work the gun, but I'm sure they did, but it was, it was an interesting time, and it's unfortunate that we, we all had to experience that, but that's kind of the nature of The world? Well, tell me a little about Roadrunner, what it is, what it does, and so on, how you got involved, rather than through the Wiley Coyote. Chris Jamroz ** 12:09 That's right. But Roadrunner originally was built as a metro to Metro, direct transportation, trucking service in the sub market referred to as less than truckload, so called the LTL. And what it means is that within you know, when you see a semi tractor, you know, speeding down and very hopefully observing the speed limit, usually about 90% of the market. When you look at those, those trucks, they are full truckloads, or referring an industry as truckloads, it's TL, TL and truckload means that all the contents, all the freight contained within the space of that trailer, is destined to one shipper. And shipper is the term we use for customers here interchangeably. So Lt. The difference of LTL is that within that same trailer, same 53 foot long trailer, you have freight for a lot of different shippers, and LTL is the sub segment of the broader trucking dedicated to service those customers who do not have the need or cannot necessarily afford the cost of chartering the whole trailer, and that may not have any specific need to for that kind of space, and they utilize pallet positions within that trailer to transport the freight from point A to point B. That accounts for about 10% to 20% depending on who you talk to of the overall market, and it's and Roadrunner became an expert and a specialist in taking loads directly across the continent from it started in Milwaukee, in Cudahy, Wisconsin, and Shooting loads directly to America's southwest to, you know, and back that's obviously was linked to the port activity and intake in intake freight input point from Los Angeles and Long Beach ports. But he became an expert, and over time, the different management teams and different constituency of shareholders embarked on a strategy of growing it across different modes and a lot of things, and it became bit of a problematic story for the last four years. We We spend a concerted amount of time and discipline effort to unwind those those layers and bring it back to the specialist metro to Metro, long haul, specialist tracking service, which has kind of helped us resume our path to sustainability and excellence. Michael Hingson ** 14:52 Is there a lot of competition for well among LTL companies? Yeah. Chris Jamroz ** 15:01 I think there's a fair degree or healthy competition among them. It's, it's a fairly limited market of players. It's, I came up through my, through my experience in LTL, I I've coined this phrase that LTL stands for, less than likely to go perfect. It's, you know, despite the fact that you think it's a pretty simplistic concept of picking up the palette in in Philadelphia and delivering it in Dallas, it's actually an extraordinary complex and difficult to execute service, and from a perspective of being on time, of not losing, not damaging, the freight and trust to you. And obviously do it in a sort of in a fairly compressed timeline. So it is, it is a very specialist place. It's very different from what I mentioned, about 80% of the market, which is the truckload market, which is, you know that, you know, full trailers picked up from pay B, they just go to to the destination. This one is a consolidation play. There's, there's different touch points. It's a very complex so while the competition is very healthy, it's a good competition because it's sort of a tide that raises all the bonuses. These are very high quality providers, and as we compete, our customers win, Michael Hingson ** 16:29 yeah, which is kind of important, and as long as everybody recognizes that it makes perfect sense that it ought to be that way. Why are what makes Road Runner kind of unique, or what sets it apart from other companies. Chris Jamroz ** 16:42 What it said that we specialize in doing that one thing, which is taking loads directly and connecting a very far apart points across the United States, Canada in increasing Mexico direct. So a lot of large, large carriers or trucking companies have a very densely populated terminals, and they've, you know, they may have in excess of 300 terminals in the United States alone. What they do is they like very much, like an airline. They created a sophisticated hub and spoke system where the shuttle service connects the entire network. So for example, the freight from picked up from Long Beach destined to a planner may go through five different hubs as the network is designed. The problem with that is that every time you have to go into an LTL trailer, that means the forklift drives inside, lifts the pallet, needs to take it out, then take the cross to CrossTalk, puts in another trailer that's going to be destined to the next point and stop on the way. Damage happens, loss happens, and time is wasted, just and time is wasted. So what we do is we only have 36 terminals, but we we're in major metro, Metro, Metro to Metro connectivity. I always say that if you have a professional sports team, ideally a good one, and you we're going to have a terminal there in those settings, and we use our team drivers, and we just just shoot those votes straight across. So we compress the time that it takes to traverse the distance, and we eliminate those points of rehandling of powers and freight and greatly reduced the risk of loss, the risk of damage, etc. Michael Hingson ** 18:48 And presumably, as part of that, you are very creative in scheduling, so that when you take a load somewhere and you get to the final destination, you also have other material to pick up, to go back or to go elsewhere, so you don't leave trucks idle very often, Chris Jamroz ** 19:06 correct. So that's that's the art and the science of network design. Yeah, the way we execute it. We obviously have tremendous amount of data analytics and algorithmic tools to help us route this way, because at the same time, not just the trucks sitting idle, but the drivers don't like, you know, drivers like to drive, because when they drive, they make money, yeah, and that's we are very good at keeping them on the road and making money. Michael Hingson ** 19:38 So what got you started in deciding to be part of Road Runner and and working up through the system to get where you are. Chris Jamroz ** 19:47 You know, over the last two decades, I've become a sort of a specialist in unlocking trapped value in logistics companies across all modes of supply chain, globally and Road Runner. Certainly one platform with very severe challenges and and I really loved the story. I was completely taken by the strength and of and the resilience of its people. And I really thought it's an incredible opportunity to orchestrate a turnaround like no other in the trucking industry. And while it may sound a little bit arrogant, it's not meant to be. But you know, as I've heard it from equity analysts and bankers, many, many trucking companies have attempted turnaround and restructuring, and very few ever made it. There was a time when Old Dominion road lawyers, which is one of the best, arguably the best LTL carrier in the nation, they used to suffer from terrible reputation. And I remember they were called the referred to as the old smelly onion. Today it's a gold standard for all of us in this business to aspire to. But there was a time in the 90s when they suffered greatly and they orchestrated a spectacular turnaround. And there were there were some others as well, but road run in recent history is definitely the most spectacular comeback in that space. Michael Hingson ** 21:21 Well, it obviously, in part, has to do with being very creative and figuring out ways to do exactly what you do, which is to get material from one place to another, minimum of any transfer from one truck to another, because you're right that can cause a lot of damage, and it does take a lot of time, and I'm sure that the result of that is that drivers appreciate it as well. Chris Jamroz ** 21:46 Drivers do. Drivers are, you know, hardworking people. It's tough to think when, when I do about more a group of of the more patriotic pillars of our society. Drivers are a true American entrepreneurs, and we pride ourselves in empowering them and putting them in business and helping them build their own businesses. And we have, you know, so many success stories that filled our hearts with pride. But at the end of the day, drivers stay and drivers support carrier that helps them make money, that means, helps them busy, stay them enrolled, gives them good loads. And we have become, you know, we've kind of prioritized this as our core competence. Michael Hingson ** 22:32 So with all of that, how was it during the whole period of covid? Because, of course, a lot of things happened. A lot of things shut down, and a lot of things changed because of covid. How did all that affect Roadrunner and what you do, and how did you all come out of it? Chris Jamroz ** 22:53 We certainly, we kind of started the restructuring, and literally in the beginning of March, which was in 2020 which was like two weeks before the entire country shut down. So obviously that made it for a very interesting time in our life. But Trucking is such an essential service, it never stopped, right? Without trucking, nothing gets delivered. You cannot do anything. It's probably next to the sanitation services, I think, the most critical part of American or any economy for that matter. And so we worked, we worked interruptly through the pandemic. We were very focused on rebuilding our business and fixing our operations so everything that was happening external to our business were kind of very much in our peripheral vision, because we had so much work to fix our business from inside out, and that kind of kept us busy for for pretty much the next two and a half years. Michael Hingson ** 23:58 So covid was kind of a good impetus and an excuse to to do the things that you you knew you kind of needed to do anyway. It Chris Jamroz ** 24:06 was a good it was a good time, because we would have had to do it anyway. But the people were so distracted by, obviously, the stress of of the situation, that kind of took the focus completely away from what we were, what we needed to do. And I think that was a blessing. Michael Hingson ** 24:25 Several um, weeks ago, I had the opportunity to chat with a gentleman named Glenn Gao, who lives in Northern California, who's a business leader coach, and he promotes the whole concept of AI and specifically managers using AI to help create ideas to improve what they do and to improve their companies and so on. But one of the discussions we had, um, and he and he said something very interesting during the discussion. But one of the discussions we had was how AI is going to affect. People as we go forward, and one of his positions was artificial intelligence, and all the things that are going on with AI doesn't eliminate jobs. Rather, people eliminate jobs because either they they find that they can do things cheaper, but they're they're not really doing themselves any good by doing that, because what AI should really do is where relevant help redefine jobs. And one of the things that we talked about was exactly the whole concept of truck drivers, when AI and autonomous vehicles come more into existence, what will happen to truck drivers? And his point was, even if you let a vehicle operate autonomously and it's completely safe, what that really should do is not to require a driver to not be in a truck anymore, but rather, you find other responsibilities and other things for the driver to do while monitoring the Driving of the vehicle no matter how safe it is. And so that that prompts the question, what do you think about the whole issue of autonomous vehicles and AI, and where you think that might might go over time? Because I tend to agree with Glenn, it shouldn't eliminate jobs. It may cause some expansion or redefining of jobs, but not elimination. Yeah. Chris Jamroz ** 26:21 I think, listen, this is a, obviously a topic that could take a day, and everybody has no yeah. I always, I always love watching those clips from the news, yeah, news from the 1990s when the first the internet, the World Wide Web, was introduced, and people kind of speculating with it, if it's going to, you know, mean anything you want to. You don't want to be that guy who voices an opinion that gets recorded, and 20 years later your kids get to see it. What you know, What a dumb Damas your dad may have been. This is, this is one of those. So I have a very specific view on this. I, you know, I always kind of think that are certain tools that I invented that help things, and some of them were very useful and don't necessarily make the life easier. An example for that is a vacuum cleaner. You know, when I, when I was born, the vacuum cleaner was still a novelty and not particularly a widely think what was happening that once a year the entire Thai family would gather to take one or two rugs that that were present. Now, take them outside, clean them, usually in the snow, because I was thinking, and come back and just enjoy the freshness for the next year. Now the vacuum cleaner comes a genius invention. Genius invention. What do we do? You know, if my mom would have her way, I would be vacuum cleaning every day, just instead of a once a thing. I have a hobby now that every time my mom is a pond to one thing, I'd better get on that and get it clean. So did it really save us? I don't know, but definitely it's full invention, AI broadly, I think has has an immense impact on our lives, to the to the extent that I don't think anybody can even appreciate right now, in terms of the logistics business, I actually think there's very limited impact of what AI can do. And this is a sort of, and this is very humble opinion, after, you know, spending the two decades and fixing different supply chain businesses, and it's just the unpredictability, the the size of these, you know, statistically viable data samples, the the the the patterns of different outcomes is just impossible to scale and up until you can lift A pallet from Portland and and it can traverse in Metaverse to Chicago. You still need a truck, you still need a forklift, you still need someone to oversee this, right? So definitely impact on jobs and logistics, I'd say minimum. I think basically, maybe quality, the quality of service, perhaps we're using machine learning and AI algorithmic methodologies in our static load plan, which basically means routing the freight the best possible way. But at the same time, it's not an infinite benefit game. At the end of the day, you have a night 10 corridor and you have a truck that can traverse as the speed limit. And what is the best case? It's just there's very limited outcomes to the upside here. So I think the AI in terms of the, you know, in terms of the logistics space, will have probably the most commute. It effects of across the board, if I think about it, and definitely as I'm looking forward to the marginal benefits, I don't see it as a particular needle mover for us here. Well, Michael Hingson ** 30:13 as I said, even if you could completely automate a vehicle so that it could drive itself, and that's fine. I still say that ultimately, I would never want to remove the driver from the vehicle, but rather give the driver other things to do to help the company. And they're the creative people will figure that out, and I think that there is no way that it should eliminate jobs. It's ridiculous to think that it's supposed to enhance and I think that there are ways that it will, whether vehicles will really become fully autonomous anytime in the near or intermediate future, at least, is is open to conjecture. But I I don't like the idea of, well, it's going to eliminate jobs. I don't believe that that's true. And I think that's what you're saying as well, and it makes sense. Chris Jamroz ** 31:07 Yes, yeah. Well, Michael Hingson ** 31:09 so in terms of shipping and logistics, what does, if you will, shipping and logistics indicate about kind of the broader economy, because it's certainly listening to what you said earlier. It continued during the pandemic, and I guess that means economy continues. But in general, just the whole industry. How does that affect or fit into the whole issue of the economy, and what your industry does for the economy? Chris Jamroz ** 31:41 So you know, the American economy, every economy has a different mix of drivers, right? The American economy is a consumer driven economy, right? A percent of the GDP is driven by the discretionary consumer spend. So everything that you and I go and, you know, whether we go to a restaurant or go to the, you know, go to a wonderful vacation spot and buy it, you know, a plane ticket and book a hotel. All those kind of things make a difference. And obviously our discretionary shopping habits, that's critical. LTL is very much driven, you know, the entire supply chain accounts for 8% of American GDP. So it's not insignificant, and it is a sort of a barometer of activity. The broader, the broader trucking index could be an indication of of many drivers in common with this, whether that's industrial out of gage, project driven infrastructure investments by, you know, oil and gas sectors, or public works, or earth moving projects, you have all this kind of interaction with LTL is predominantly linked to e commerce near shoring and a little bit to the Import activity that when we have goods imported, they enter United States either through the port of New Jersey, New York or Long Beach, Los Angeles, and obviously Seattle, Tacoma or Charleston and Houston have all these kind of different entry points and and we monitor this. So we definitely are continued to be in a third year of recession, or this, you know, the tail end of the second year of recession, a freight recession. That is where the the volume of shipments have been dramatically, muted, dramatically, and then we continue to see the excess capacity, the full truckloads that I spoke about earlier, they hurting the most from the truckers. LTL is a fairly protected niche, and again, e commerce, which is still alive and healthy near shore, obviously growing in abundance and significance. That's also helping and so those the LTO is a little bit insulated from their role, and I wouldn't, and it's never particularly good or more reliable, most reliable gage of American economy or its health, the truckload is probably in other modes of trucking are more indicative, I would say. But again, you know we can, you know this was, you know what we experienced in 2021 and beginning of 2022 which was unprecedented peak and that benefited all people in supply chain, that obviously has been a peak in a cyclical business. And no matter what you call it, the transportation business are commodity businesses. And commodity businesses cycle, and some of the modes within that sector cycle more violently than others. And and we are at the trough of that cycle. And and probably will be here for quite some time, because we see before we see any mean. For recovery. Michael Hingson ** 35:00 Why is there such a upright recession right now? Chris Jamroz ** 35:06 What has happened is, if you remember that, there's couple of things, number one, at any cycle, at the peak of a cycle, a lot of people make decisions, and there's this unimpeachable view of self, intellect among them, among some of the decision makers who think, Okay, this time will be different, and this time, we won't let this slip. And there are decisions made at the peak of the cycle that have consequences or carry the consequences through the trough. Those decisions in our industry usually impact capacity, such as the number of new orders for trucks and trailers and terminal expansion when, when you look at this never, ever before in the history of mankind, more tractors, trailers and terminals have been commissioned or ordered than it were in 2021 and 2022 all These orders are now coming, then, creating unprecedented capacity. And now mind you, 2020, and 2021. Tested, you know, tested our ability to function without the ability to interact with each other. So you remember, we all remember, everybody was stocking up on just about any house, good supplies, you know, toilet paper, Clorox and disinfectants and just about anything, and the volume was just that no matter how much capacity you had, you you didn't have enough to satisfy the thirst of the consumer back in those days. So people made a lot of decisions. Most profound were those of ocean shippers who commissioned more supermax container ships than ever, ever in the history of the planet. And all these ships are being launched right now in the second world so soon in the second part of 2024 never before we had such a non swap of new supply in the notion, which obviously collapsed the pricing and in an ocean market. And that has a domino effect through, you know, starts with an ocean, because everything comes from China, Indonesia, India, Vietnam. Nothing comes from, you know, nothing comes from, you know, from the American Midwest anymore to meaningful thing now, thankfully, that's been offset by those near showing trends and the resurgence of Mexico and infrastructure investment in manufacturing on this continent, which is phenomenal. But you know, you had that, that onslaught of capacity and carried from ocean ships through through train cars, through tractor trailers, through new terminals, and, you know, they're just, you know, we, we didn't stay at that peak. You didn't, you know you're not. You don't have a three month supply of paper towels in your cupboard, probably today. And those trends reversed, and they kind of reverted to more historical median. So we went to the median shipping, not not anything dramatic, but we overbuilt capacity to to to support an abnormal volume demand. So you have this, you know, you have anybody who could have a truck, you could became an instant billionaire, right? If you could commit a thing, and you could drive the truck and take somebody's cargo shipment from it from one point to another. You're in business, and you're doing extremely well. And then that, you know, at the same time, the government stimulus, the low, super low interest rate, the financing, those, those things you picked for nearly nothing in terms of financing costs, and those covid leases are still in place. So we have a bit of a delayed effect of people exiting the industry, which is a normal thing in a down cycle, and it's prolonged, because the cost of the equipment is a lot cheaper than ever before in the history of economic cycle. So you have this prolonged exits which have not rationalized the supply demand equation. You have those very committed, serious infrastructure investment in terminals and expanding the infrastructure for handling exuberant amount of freight in this in this country, and that kind of makes it for a fairly miserable outcome for for those who try to make a living in transportation. Michael Hingson ** 39:29 Do you think that there are things that we could have done to prevent what happened? Because it's it seems to me that it is a cycle, but at the same time, how could we have avoided it, given what happened in the pandemic and everybody was stocking up and so on, how could we have avoided doing exactly the thing that occurred, which now leads to the recession in this industry? And I'd be also curious to see if you think that that's going to spread. Further to the rest of the economy. But how could we have avoided it? Or could we have, Chris Jamroz ** 40:06 I don't think so. Now you'd have to convince people to hate making money, and that's that's a tough thing, because at the peak of the cycle, every incremental capacity you know delivers extraordinary monetary benefit. So you would, you would have to ask for restraint and discipline. That is, is not natural to us, a natural to us as humans, and definitely not part of the American, American fabric, which is obviously opportunist, opportunism and entrepreneurialism. So, and it's there's a history of that every unprecedented event, if you go back in history, tend to occur every six to seven years. We have that unprecedented event of of a of a decline in the trough that that one can fully expect we in the decade the smarter people. I mean, that's that's sort of a South tyling Kong. But you know it when, in our business, we really reserved a lot of cash in 2020, and 2021, and I directed all of my management teams to just prepare for inevitable recession and entering entering with a high, you know, high reserves of of cash helps you through the town cycle. People who have leveraged themselves to the tilt and the pursuit of getting access to that capacity can deploy to earning, earning activities, have found themselves disappointed and and at the point of, you know, difficulty or despair at times, and many of them have since exited the industry or the business and all together. But it's not a it's not, I don't think it's avoidable. It's a cyclicality of commodity businesses, a lot of businesses, go through cycles. Oil and Gas is a violent cycle, ocean shipping, transportation, businesses of all coins, all of them are extraordinary. Link to economic gravitas, and that just, you know that just happens. The question is that, can you make the landing as soft as possible? Well, because you cannot avoid not going down, Michael Hingson ** 42:18 yeah, which is really the wisdom and the thing that you have to do, we can't prevent it, but at the same time, we, if we are wise, we can prepare for it. And that makes perfect sense, because it's it is one of those things that just too many people just run right into things, and they do things, they just react. We have too many knee jerk reactions without strategizing, and that's part of the problem. So what you did is clearly the way to go, and the hope is that you're predicting enough of the recession and the level of it that that you'll be able to survive it and it won't become too bad. Chris Jamroz ** 43:02 Yeah. I mean, listen, people at the peak of the cycle have difficulty seeing the cliff. They always try to believe that this time will be different and and it won't end up in tears like every single time beforehand. At the same time, people at the bottom of the cycle can sometimes pass. He passed the doom and gloom of the misery of today. But you know, as Rumi, the poet, says, This shall pass too. Yeah, say, and it's just, you know, you can never predict. And I don't you know, there's just you know all the even you know a broken clock is, is right twice a day, which is one of my favorite sayings, and right if you perpetually predict the negative you one day, you'll be right. If you you know a perpetual optimist, one day, you'll be quoted that you had predicted it. But I don't think there's this ability to put the timing on severity of these swings. What you can do is to do your absolute best to prepare for the cyclicality and inevitability of a of an economic cycle that impacts industry that are commodity industries, and try not to believe your own headlines. That's one of my favorite sayings to the things just when you have this kind of, you know, exuberant confidence in your own ability, but there's always a healthy check in that is, that is required and, and I always tell the management team don't, don't. You know, we very good, but we're not that good, and never, ever believe in your own press releases. Michael Hingson ** 44:27 Yeah. Well, one of my favorite sayings is, don't worry about the things that you can't control. Focus on what you can and let the rest take care of itself. And you can't control the recession concept or recessions, necessarily, but what you can control is how well you prepare for it, and you think about it far enough in advance or sufficiently that you prepare as well as you can, and that's all you can do. Chris Jamroz ** 44:52 Yeah, well said. Michael Hingson ** 44:54 So I assume that right now, rates are cheaper than they have been in the past, and this is a good. Time to ship. Chris Jamroz ** 45:02 It is a good time to ship. It is a good time to ship, particularly from, from a perspective of past. You know, years of 2020, 2122 and but you know, you don't. You know, the rates are byproduct of capacity and demand, right? It's always, there's the markets are very efficient when they find a market clearing price or rate for any service. The key is that you know, what do we do? Like about the LTL industry, that all the carriers are disciplined, so while everybody, nobody will be reporting record earnings this year, the what we do provides an adequate return on capital to provide for continuity and sustainability of our enterprise. Well, Michael Hingson ** 45:49 it sounds like that you and what you do with Roadrunner, and I think in other places, have built companies and made them successful. And I think the most important part about that is that you build good teams. How do you do that? Chris Jamroz ** 46:07 You know, everybody wants to play on the winning team. I've learned that fairly, pretty often, if you want. You know you could be not necessarily the easiest coach or not the kindest general manager of a sports team, but the players who want to join and come and play on the team, if you, if you win in championships and and it's all about the creating the little victories and momentum and creating the positive momentum, because it kind of takes a life of its own. And it's all about velocity of decision making processes. These are sort of a things that when, when I see, when I see organization crippled, you know, by the paralysis by analysis. And they kind of these full of smartest people in the world, but they just cannot make the right decision that they spend endless time through, you know, trying to model different outcomes. You attract top people who believe in the ability to become very effective as leaders, as managers, by combining the intelligence, the talent, the respect for data and analytics, and they empowered to make decisions, and they empowered to make a difference. That, you know, even through my life, you know, I've seen how many changes and the generations that are entering the workforce today are very different in behaviors that even Iowa's. And the contrast is quite stark, but what it is very magnetizing to to them is the ability to be impactful and do something they truly believe in, and do the right thing, and based upon very objective analysis, as opposed to, you know, do it because I say so, or gut based decision making and and so forth. So my teams, my management teams, evolved quite rapidly. You know, the last 1415, years, you know, I've had about probably 90% rotation in 19 million continue to upgrade, and so can people continue to find different paths so they just not good enough as the caliber of challenges I take on increases, but you know, I'm thrilled to see so many incredibly young, young folks on my team doing things that are just almost, you know, I could only describe as inspiring to me. Michael Hingson ** 48:47 There's something to be said for energy, isn't there? Chris Jamroz ** 48:51 Oh, energy is key. And from the leadership perspective, you need, you absolutely need credibility. So you need to act with integrity, authenticity. You need to win the respect of the people by fighting alongside with them in the trenches, you know, and being a very high energy leader, I think, is critical, particularly in industry as ours, right. I love the kinetic movement. I love the energy released by by transport and moving and and I lead the way that I would want to see the people around me behave, and I think that's critically important. Michael Hingson ** 49:33 Yeah, I think there's a lot to be said for the fact that people need to relate to you and to leaders, because if, if they can't relate, if they can't really feel like they're part of the team, then they never will be. And the leaders, the person or the leaders, are the people who need to make that happen. Chris Jamroz ** 49:57 I agree. I think there are different industries that. That that that aspect that you just mentioned is extremely important, logistics, absolutely. But there are different industries like, think about law firms or hospitals. They doctors don't need to be inspired by leadership. Lawyers need to be inspired by the Management Committee, the excellent professionals, and they operate within their own scope of autonomy, and they phenomenal what they do in logistics. It doesn't work. You could be the most brilliant person in the room. If you do not win the hearts and minds of your fellow teammates, you're not going to get anything done. And that is critical, because, if you and that's why logistics business, particularly those who do extremely well, have leaders, who have, you know, extremely personable, personable with a very high degree of energy. They're not, you know what you would have imagined in the past. You can see and sort of even the if you look in SMP and stock performance and and the shareholder value creation. You those firms who have very passionate, charismatic leadership teams tend to outperform dramatically the rest of the peer cohort. But Michael Hingson ** 51:12 even in a law firm, if it's a real firm, and I think that's the issue, if it wants to operate as an entity, even the lawyers have their own cases and so on. But if, if it really wants to operate as an entity and find ways for people to collaborate and work together or work with each other at least, then there's got to be some level of leadership in it. And it sometimes happens, and then sometimes it doesn't. And I think that's true in in a lot of industries, but the best companies are ones where there is a a leader or leaders who can bring people together and make people all work toward whatever the common goals are, absolutely yeah, what's the best part of your job? Chris Jamroz ** 51:58 You know the best part is seeing the people who have worked so hard, committed so much of the personal time and sacrifice of the years come to work, and you see that moment when there there are sparks in their eyes, when they see that their work matters and they Making a difference. And there's nothing more fulfilling, because everybody wants to be, you know, on the winning team. And you know, in the history of roadrun, which is obviously the most current one, but every other business that I've had the privilege of of being at the helm. You When? When, when people who make the companies start really feeling that they've made the difference and their contributions matter, and they're being appreciated, and the work shows there's no greater feeling in the world. So Michael Hingson ** 52:49 what, what influences you? I mean, obviously you learn. You find ways to learn, and things need to probably influence you to to get to think the way you do. What are the things that influence you in the world, other than Acme and the Wiley Coyote? Chris Jamroz ** 53:11 You know, this is I, I've, I've gone through my share of role models and mentors, and, you know, I'm profoundly grateful for the influence they've had on shaping the character of a person that I am and, and the business person that I've become and, and there were many right now, it's really sort of, you know, as you kind of, as I'm, you know, becoming more mature. It's really a kind of creating legacy and living legacy, and doing that through passing the proverbial baton to the new generations and seeing people step up and grow and become more confident in their abilities and truly believe in themselves, that's really is is is tremendous. And I think that's you know, as you know the you know, the my 20s and 30s, and soon the 40s will be over. The next, the next decade in my life will effectively about creating the living legacy, and that's probably the most powerful influence in my life. One Michael Hingson ** 54:18 of the things that I've learned came from being a member of the largest consumer organization of blind people, the National Federation of the Blind, and the president of the Federation, years and years and years ago, started organizing what he called Leadership seminars. And that's continued with later presidents. But one of the things that the President said, well, actually, a question that he asked, I remember it clearly. It was on the Saturday Night of the seminar, is what is the most important thing that the president of the organization can and should be doing? And his response, after hearing what other people said, is. Because the most important thing I think the President has to do is to be looking for his successor, because there will become a time that he doesn't get to be president anymore, and if the organization is going to continue, then the President needs to be the one to find the person who can take over and do what needs to be done going forward. What do you think about that? Chris Jamroz ** 55:28 I think it's very profound. I think it's critical. I I've, you know, through my, through my adventure and logistics, you know, I've been at the helm of, you know, now, the helm of eighth and ninth organization, and I've done, I've executed seven exits, and every single time that I left, what was left behind was a fully sustainable management team that could take, they would take the operation to the new The new level, but it would be their, their story wouldn't be mine anymore, right? And it's, it's tough. It's tough because first you first there's, we're humans, and we develop emotional connectivity. If we have the humans we obviously we relate, relate to fellow humans and and we we like what we do, and we tend to touch so it's difficult to let go. Second of go, particularly things going well. There's, you know, we tend to develop. There's an impeachable view of self, intellect and supremacy and irreplaceability, which is complete and nonsensical, but it is human. And I've maintained a very healthy discipline of not staying at the helm of any organization for more than three, four years, and and that's, you know, that's, that's very healthy. And I think at any given time you you have to create because, to be honest, if especially in today's, today's society, if people do not see the path forward, if they think that their abilities will not be recognized within the meritocracy of the organizational dynamics, they will leave the competition for talented spheres. And it's not a defensive play, but it's makes organization better. I've seen a lot of executives trying to hang on to the spots for decades and and to be honest, all they've accomplished. I think it's time. The the potential that organization could have had doesn't mean the businesses are not performing, but I think the reasons could have gone a lot further. And but it's time. It's difficult, right? We don't want to seem we don't want to see ourselves as impediments to growth. Who wants to think of themselves by that? It's I think, but I think it's a very healthy habits. As much as I'm a firm believer in term limits and in certain government fears, I'm a strong believer in term limits at the helm of commercial organizations, and I've lived by by example of that, having, you know, having exited seven times already. So my average tenure is just under, you know, just about two and three years well Michael Hingson ** 58:12 and and obviously you Leave when you know that you've been able to put together a team, and even possibly including a person at the top of the team who can take over and continue the growth or whatever it is that the organization needs which is important, Chris Jamroz ** 58:28 absolutely, absolutely. So Michael Hingson ** 58:32 on a personal note, what do you do when you're not being CEO or chair of the board? What kind of hobbies or pastimes and other things like that do you do to be a little bit more frivolous in the world? Chris Jamroz ** 58:45 So my absolute thing in the world is kiteboarding, which I don't get to do enough, but it is aspirations. Kiteboarding and sailing. These are the most relaxing things I can ever envision doing in my life, and it's been quite some time since I since I've sailed, and it's been quite some time since I kite board, so like, I'm targeting, you know, the end of this year to maybe get at least a few weekends out in The ocean, as Michael Hingson ** 59:21 long as the sharks leave you alone. Chris Jamroz ** 59:24 Well, if you outrun them, Michael Hingson ** 59:26 well there, there's that. That's fair. Okay. Well, Chris, I want to thank you for taking so much time to be here. My hope that you've enjoyed it and had fun. I certainly have learned a lot, which is what I always like to do. And I really appreciate you taking the time to spend with us and making this, I think, a relevant and memorable podcast for people to hear. I Chris Jamroz ** 59:49 could absolutely and thouroughly enjoyed myself, and thank you so much for inviting me and having me on your show. Michael Hingson ** 59:54 Thanks very much for listening to unstoppable mindset. We hope that wherever you're listening, you'll get. Us a five star rating. We value that very highly. If you want to comment on this podcast, I'd love to hear from you. You can reach me at Michael h i@accessibe.com, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com, you can also go hear other podcasts anywhere podcasts are available, especially you could go to www dot Michael hingson, M, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o, n.com/podcast, but wherever you listen to us, please give us a five star rating. We value that very highly, and we hope that you'll come back and visit with us again next time. On unstoppable mindset, you music. **Michael Hingson ** 1:00:45 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. 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