Sign up to get updates from us
When you read about our guest this time, Lisa Kohn, the first thing you read is “The best seats Lisa ever had at Madison Square Garden were at her mother’s wedding, and the best cocaine she ever had was from her father’s friend, the judge.” Lisa’s mother’s wedding was a group affair with 4,000 marriages taking place. It wasn’t nearly as romantic as one might think as you will discover. You will also get to read about her childhood drug use caused by her father in The Village in New York City. More important, you get to travel with me on Lisa’s journey as she eventually overcomes these and other challenges. Lisa did get to attend college and obtain a degree in Psychology and later an MBA in business. Lisa’s journey has been a hard and long one, but you will see just how unstoppable Lisa became and is today. She started her leadership consulting and life coaching business, Chatworth Consulting Group, in 1995. The business has thrived and grown. Lisa shares with us her thoughts on life and how easy it can be for all of us to fall into traps that can take our lives in what she would call bad directions and down not good rabbit holes. This episode contains a lot of relevant content we all can use. I hope you enjoy it and, of course, feel free to reach out to Lisa. About the Guest: Lisa Kohn is a transformational keynote speaker, leadership consultant, executive coach, and award-winning author of The Power of Thoughtful Leadership and to the moon and back: a childhood under the influence, a memoir that chronicles her childhood growing up in the Unification Church (the Moonies) with her mom and a life of “sex, drugs, and squalor” in New York City’s East Village with her dad. Lisa’s unique background has given her a perspective on life, people, and leadership, as well as an expansive array of tools, mind-shifts, and best practices she’s found and created, that help her clients find their own paths to powerful, authentic, Thoughtful leadership. With over 25 years of experience supporting senior leaders in areas such as leadership, managing change, interpersonal and team dynamics, strategy, well-being, and life-fulfillment, Lisa partners with her clients as they not only uncover core issues to implement real changes in themselves and their organizations, but also successfully address their own inner challenges and effectively connect with others to ensure the changes stick. Lisa has been described as “leading with love,” and she’s honored to teach C-suite leaders of not-for-profits and Fortune 50 organizations about the compelling impact of self-compassion, self-love, fun, delight, and Thoughtful Leadership – being more present, intentional, and authentic. She works with organizations across a broad range of industries, in companies such as New York City Department of Education, GroupM/WPP, Verizon, World Wrestling Entertainment, American Civil Liberties Union, and Comcast. Lisa brings insight to clients that transforms the way organizations develop and manage their people and the way leaders lead their people and live their lives. Lisa earned her BA in psychology from Cornell University and her MBA from Columbia University’s Executive Program. She has taught as an adjunct professor at Columbia University and New York University’s Stern School of Business and has been featured in publications addressing topics on leadership, communication, effective teaming, authenticity, selfcare, and, of course, healing from trauma. She has been awarded the designation of Professional Certified Coach by the International Coach Federation. Lisa is an Accredited Facilitator for Everything DiSC®, The Five Behaviors of a Cohesive Team™, The Leadership Circle™, and Myers-Briggs Type Indicator®. Lisa lives in Pennsylvania but will always tell you that she is “from New York.” Ways to connect with Lisa: Instagram and X @lisakohnwrites LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisakohnccg/ Facebook https://www.facebook.com/lisakohnwrites My websites are www.lisakohnwrites.com and www.chatsworthconsulting.com About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:
Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi, once again, you are listening to another episode of unstoppable mindset, and today, we get to speak with Lisa Kohn, who is the founder of the Chatsworth Consulting Group. She leads with love. Many people say she deals with nonprofits, C suite, people and others, and dealing with business coaching, life coaching, and I'm not going to tell you anymore, because she's going to spend the next hour telling us all about it. So Lisa, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We are really glad you're here. Lisa Kohn ** 01:55 I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you for having me, Michael, Michael Hingson ** 01:58 now I do have to tell everyone. I'm going to tell on you that we were talking before we started this. Lisa's had to postpone a couple times because she had a concussion, which in in a way, relates to skiing. And having never skied myself, I love to spread the rumor that the trees are out to get us all the time. So one of these days I'll probably ski but but in the meanwhile, my brother in law is as a great skier, and was a certified mountain ski guide for years, and I always tell him that the trees are out to get us, and he can not convince me otherwise, no matter what he says. And he says, No, it's really you the skier. And I said, That's what you say. So you know, that's my conspiracy theory of the day, Lisa Kohn ** 02:37 but I will tend to believe it, because not this concussion, but the last concussion I did, ski into a tree, and I don't know how. I really don't know how. So I am convinced maybe to come out to get me. That makes sense. See, Michael Hingson ** 02:51 there you go. I rest my case. Everyone. You're welcome to let us know what you think, but it is fun to tease about it. My brother in law used to take tours to France, and was, as I said, a certified mountain ski guide, and has done it for years in the winter in Ketchum, Idaho, where he lives, it is all about skiing first foremost and always, and everything else comes second. So that's fine. Well, Lisa, why don't we start by you telling us a little about the early Lisa, I love to start that way. Learn a little bit about you growing up and all that stuff and going to college or whatever you did and anything like that that you want to tell Lisa Kohn ** 03:31 us. Well, I will do that. It's it's not the simplest story. So I'll give you the overview and the highlights, and then we can move on or go deeper, or whatever works for you. So I love lines, right? I have a line that describes my childhood. I say the best seats I ever had at Madison Square Garden were at my mother's wedding because my mom got married in 1982 with 4074 other people in a mass wedding. I was raised Unification Church, the Moonies. I was raised in a cult. So that's that's my life with my mom. And on the other hand, the best cocaine I ever had was for my father's friend, the judge. Because my dad, I lived with my dad and my dad. Life with my dad was, as I like to say, sex, drugs and squalor in New York City's East Village in the 1970s so I am, I am like this true child of the 60s and 70s, because both my parents were involved in the, you know, the hippie culture and then the cult culture of that era. So very short. You know, very long story, very short. After that synopsis, my parents got married way too young. Had my brother had me split up. We lived with my mom for a number of years, and when I was in third grade, we were about to we lived on the East Coast. Of America. We lived in Jersey, and we were about to move drive across country to California to move on to a commune. And my grandmother, my mom's mom, got sick with cancer, and so instead we moved, instead of cross country, moved across state and moved in with my grandparents and lived there. My grandmother died. My mom stayed with we stayed with my grandfather. My mom was taking care of the house and of him. And in 1974 my mom went to hear, actually, the person she with whom she said, hitchhik, cross country with every year, called her and said, You have to go hear Reverend Moon speak. And my mom went to hear Reverend Moon speak and came back a changed person, just enthralled with what she'd heard. And not much happened. And then a couple months later, members of the Unification Church convinced my mom to go up for a weekend workshop, and my mom went away for the weekend and came back and went back up for a week and came back and went back up and basically spent the summer being indoctrinated into the unification Church's ideology. And then, you know, somewhere that summer, my mom took us, my brother, I have an older brother, took my brother, and I have with her, and we the estates called barrytown, New York. We pull up to this estate. This this huge building. It used to be a Christian brother school, and we go down into the gymnasium, and all the women, the sisters, are sitting on the floor on the right side of the room, and all the brothers, the men, are sitting on the floor on the left side of the room. And with moments Moon Reverend Sam young moon walks in and begins speaking with his interpreter, and that was it. I had a Messiah, and we were Moonies, and again, synopsized down. Within about six months, my mom sat my brother and I down and said, kids, I really feel called to be more involved. What should I do? And we said, you should leave. And so she left, and we were with my grandfather, and I was in sixth grade and running the household. And then my grandfather, due to a variety of different things, was put in the hospital on the verge of a nervous breakdown, and we got shuffled around for a little while. And finally, my father came to get us, and we moved in with him in New York City, disease village, the life of sex, drugs and scholar, and live this dual life of like living the outside world with Satan and believing in a Messiah and a puritanical cult. And that continued for a number of years, until I can go into the details at some point. But through this whole soap opera experience, I started to eventually question. And we were literally taught if that, if we ever questioned, it was Satan inside of us, but I fully questioned and pulled away, and over the space of many years, kind of left it all behind. And yeah, went to college. I was, you know, I started questioning in my last year of high school, and then I went up to college. I was at Cornell University, and, you know, it's surrounded with gorges, and nearly jumped off the bridge into the gorge as I kind of self destructed having when I left the church. And, you know, went on to get worse and worse and worse in kind of my own psyche, until I really crashed and burned, and someone pointed me in the direction of getting help in the mid to late 80s, and it's been a journey ever since. So there, that's the that's the 10 minute version of, you know, what's in my memoir? Michael Hingson ** 08:14 What a story. What's your memoir called Lisa Kohn ** 08:18 to the moon and back the influence, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 08:21 yeah. So what about your brother? Lisa Kohn ** 08:22 My brother? My brother, uh, he so I, my brother likes to say, I never actually left, I just slowly drifted away. And that was, you know, from like 1980 through 1985 my brother, who's a year and a half older than me, a year ahead of me, in school, he, when he was in college, he was in a place that was truly surrounded with with there were Moonies there who knew him. So he could not leave. But as soon as he got out of college, he went to Drew University. He literally sat my mom down and said, That's it. I'm out. So he he announced being out. I still haven't told anyone I'm out. And he is, you know. So he's also happy and thriving. And he lives in New York City, you know, very eager to get out of the city. I got out of the city years ago. Yeah. So we're still, well, there's a lot Go ahead. Go ahead. No, go ahead. No. He's the only person who experienced the weird dichotomy going back and forth between these two crazy worlds that I did. So, yeah, we're very close. Michael Hingson ** 09:18 There's, there's a lot to be said for the city, and there's a lot that the city can contribute. But on the other hand, there are so many other parts of the country. I met a woman when my wife and I moved back to New Jersey, I stayed at an apartment for a while in Linden. I'm sorry, no, where was it? Not Lyndon, well, anyway, it was north of Springfield in New Jersey, and this woman, well, we met her because we were staying at a Holiday Inn in Springfield at the time, and she was one of the people who worked there. And she also. Then came to help me in just making sure my apartment was good and clean until Karen moved back and we had our house, and one of the things that we learned from her was that her whole life, she lived in the Springfield area and had never been to New York City, less than 40 miles away. Lisa Kohn ** 10:20 Yeah, people Michael Hingson ** 10:21 are afraid of it. Yeah, there's elizabeth new jersey, where I lived until Karen came back, and then we we had started and built a house in Westfield. But I'm always amazed, and I know of people who live in the city who have never been out. 10:35 That is true as well. Yes, and there's Michael Hingson ** 10:38 so much more to the world, and I just love the fact that I've had the opportunity as a speaker to travel all over this country and enjoy going and meeting new people and seeing new places and seeing so many different aspects of our whole US culture. It's great, Lisa Kohn ** 10:55 absolutely true. There's so much to be said for a lot of different places and and I will always be a New Yorker at heart. Michael Hingson ** 11:01 Well, there you go. There you go. And there's nothing wrong with being a New Yorker at heart. No, I was born in Chicago, but I grew up being a Californian and and I am, and I'm a Dodger fan, but you know, there you go. Of course, there are those who say that the Dodgers, one day will move back to New York, Lisa Kohn ** 11:19 back to Brooklyn. We'll Michael Hingson ** 11:20 see what happens. Yeah, hasn't happened yet. So what did you major in college? Lisa Kohn ** 11:26 I was a psychology major. Michael Hingson ** 11:27 Ah, okay, so now, where do you live? Lisa Kohn ** 11:31 I live in Wayne, Pennsylvania, outside of, Michael Hingson ** 11:34 okay, I know where that is. So that's, that's pretty cool. So you, you certainly had a life that has had a lot of experiences. And I would think that you probably would agree that, yes, there were a lot of things that weren't necessarily great, but they taught you a lot, and it certainly helps you to be able to step back and think about all that and put it in perspective Lisa Kohn ** 12:01 that is true, you know, I am. It's not quite the point you're making. But alongside that, similar to that, you know, when, again, when the memoir came out, people started reaching out to me. And some, you know, late teenager, young adult, I don't really remember, the age, Stranger reached out to me and was kind of giving me the lowdown of a situation, which was, you know, hard, lot of trauma, a lot of lot of tough stuff. And I said, What I often say is, like, I wouldn't wish difficulties and struggles or trauma on anyone, sure, but I do know that when you get through, you know, if you can get through, when you can get through, you have an appreciation of life that people who haven't experienced hardship don't really have so, like, I can look outside, I mean, I love the little gold finches. I can look outside and see a little yellow bird, or actually have about 40 in the house at this point, because people keep sending them to me, right? And I am just filled with joy because I've learned, like, I know how, how low can go. And so even just just okay is really great at times. So so it's a similar thing to what you said, right? You have a perspective. You have a you have, you know, coping mechanisms, some that are wonderful and some that are you really could let go of and be done with. But yeah, I do. I feel like I have more of an appreciation for life and joy and love than some people have who haven't had to go through things. Michael Hingson ** 13:25 I spoke to a life coach on the podcast a couple of days ago, actually. And one of the things that she said, and it's really kind of what you're saying, is that the fact is, she's much better at what she does because she has had a number of life experiences and things happen in her life, and if she hadn't done some of the things that she did and experienced some of the things that she experienced, she would never have been able to be nearly as effective as she is, Lisa Kohn ** 14:02 yeah, you know, before my memoir was published in 2018 I generally never brought up my background in my work, because it, once you say cult, it literally, it sucks the energy out of the room like nothing else matters when you say I was raised in A cult and but once it came out, and if you Google me, you know, before I walk in a room, if you look me up, you know my story, because I'm very public with it at this point, I now get to use it in all of my work, and I get to use what I've experienced, and the multitude of tools and practices and mindsets and positive psychology and neuroplasticity and mindfulness and all of the things I have learned over the years to be okay and to thrive. I get to use it in in like in the most corporate work I do, I'm still bringing up, you know, teaching people. To take care of themselves and love themselves and love themselves first. Most, you know, always, like, is tattooed on my arm, like, really, to change their perspective of themselves, to start and off in the world. So yeah, if I, if I hadn't gone through what I gone through, I wouldn't be who I am, and I wouldn't get to share some of the things I get to share. So yeah, that's and that's why I do it. If sharing my story helps other people, then it's all worthwhile. And yeah, that's why I do it. Michael Hingson ** 15:26 And I I hear that very well. And going back to what we were discussing the other day, Mary Beth and I, she starts her story by saying she took her first drink at the age of 11, and she decided that she liked the taste of alcohol and was an alcohol for alcoholic, or was a drunk for many years. And actually she's near 50, and she only quit four and a half years ago, she became, she became a life coach six years ago, although she was always interested in helping people, but she began to make that her business, and did so six years ago, and she is very clear that having adopted that philosophy and process and undertaking that career, even though it was much later in life, the bottom line is that it did lead to her finally recognizing that she shouldn't drink, and that's not a good thing, and she has not had a drink in four and a half years. Good for her. That's so it is all about what you experience and what you choose to do with it. So I hear you, you know, I Lisa Kohn ** 16:33 hear her. Yeah, last so this is 2024, so two years ago, what you experienced, I was diagnosed by cancer, and you never think you're going to be one of the people who have cancer, until they say cancer to you, and you're thinking, aren't you talking to the person behind me? And I heard, you know, when I was going through the process and going through chemo, which I do not recommend to anyone, unless you absolutely have to do it, I heard a saying from a dialectical behavioral therapy, therapist who did pass from cancer, but the saying was, I will take more from cancer than cancer takes for me. And that, that that just carried me through, right? And I you can look at that with everything, like all the all the different things we experience, I will. I remember when I was first diagnosed, a practitioner said to me, why do you think you got sick? As in, like, what hadn't I healed that caused the cancer? And I, I stopped going to that practitioner, and I very clearly, I've looked at this and I thought, it's never going to help me to think, what did I do wrong, that I had cancer, that I got cancer, I got sick, but it will help me to say I did get sick. And what do I want to learn from that, and how do I want to change and shift and grow from that? So exactly right, Michael Hingson ** 17:45 yeah, and like I always say to people, I'm my own best teacher. I've dropped saying I'm my own worst critic, because such a negative thing, and you don't necessarily have something to criticize, but I'm my own best teacher. I can look at anything I do and go, can I improve on it? How can I improve on it? And adopting the mindset that takes that approach really makes us stronger? Lisa Kohn ** 18:11 Yes, it's called a growth mindset, right? And when we have a growth mindset, when we know that we can grow, when we know that we can learn, when we and yeah, when we stop being so hard on ourselves, like so many of us are, Michael Hingson ** 18:23 yeah, and we learned that, and that's unfortunate that that's what we're taught, and it's so hard to break that cycle, but if you can, you're all the better for it, Lisa Kohn ** 18:33 absolutely and to, you know, I'm, I mean, I teach this stuff. I've been teaching this stuff for a long time. I've been using it for decades, and just today, I was watching my mind go down a rabbit hole of some negative thinking and thinking and thinking that wasn't going to help me and also. And I pause. I'm like, I was driving. I'm like, I put my hand on my leg. I'm like, Lisa, you're right here. You're right now. You're in the car. Look the sky. Pay attention to the road. You don't have to think that right now. You can just be in this present moment and feel better and poof, like magic, the crazy thinking stops, and you're like, Oh yeah, it's actually okay. I don't have to worry about that right now. But, um, yeah, our brains, our brains, we have that, like we have a negativity bias. Our brains are trained, have evolved to, like, look for danger. Focus on danger. Really think about the bad. Play it over and over. See it bigger than it is. Never look at the good. We're as Rick Hansen likes to say, Velcro for the bad and Teflon for the good. But we have a choice to shift that. So I feel like I'm preaching. Sorry, but I get excited about Michael Hingson ** 19:34 it is it is perfectly okay to preach, and it is all about choice, as I tell people all the time, we had no control over the World Trade Center happening. No one's ever convinced me that we could have really foreseen it and not have it happen. But what we all, each and every person in the world, has a choice about, is how we deal with what happened at the World Trade Center, absolutely and how. We move forward or choose not to. And I've seen all sides of that. I've seen people who talk about the conspiracy of the World Trade Center. It really didn't happen. The government did it in so many different things. And I met one guy who had been a firefighter, and he decided to change careers and become a police officer because he wanted to go kill terrorists who were trying to deal with our country would not be the reason I would choose to go to often be a police officer. He did it because his brother was killed in the World Trade Center. But still, there were so many more positive reasons to do it, but that was his goal at the time, and I don't know, having never seen him since, whether that has changed, but it is still just always a matter of we can choose, and do have the right to choose. God gives us that right. That's why we have free will to choose how we want to deal with things or not. Lisa Kohn ** 20:55 It is what it is, and what will I do with it, and how will I be with it? And yeah, yeah, and I can accept it, and then what do I want to do about it? Yeah? Yeah. All true. All true. Michael Hingson ** 21:06 So what did you do after college? So you got a degree in psychology, so I got a degree in psychology, started to psychoanalyze gold finches, but, okay, Lisa Kohn ** 21:15 you started to psycholize goldfinches. I just love my gold finches. Yeah, it's funny because when I when I was when I was writing the book, and there was a in my town, there's a author who lives here, kind of took me under her wing, and at one point she turned to me, she said, Do you realize, like, everything you experienced as a child and then you majored in psychology, and like, yeah, never dawned on me that I needed to cycle analyze myself, but I did. I got out of Cornell, and on the personal side. I very soon got engaged to someone who my dad, at that point, owned a restaurant, a French restaurant, and I got engaged as someone who worked for him and drank with him, and drank a heck of a lot, and was very not nice when he drank. And you know someone your cousin lovingly pointed me in the direction of the direction of the 12 step programs and to Alan on the 12 step program. For those of us with our arms, class Brown, the alcoholic and I crawled into my first meeting practically on my hands and knees, thinking like, tell me if he's an alcoholic, there's no way I would ever be with an alcoholic. I'm too smart for that, only to realize that there were tons of reasons why I would be and so that's that started my healing growth trajectory and journey. And on the professional side, I did a six month stint in direct mail, back when there was direct mail, a direct mail company, and then a six month stint in address, you know, do in advertising, the advertising agency, and then after that, got a job doing entertainment advertising for a small division of gray advertising, which I dearly, dearly loved. It was fun, it was exciting, it was a lot of good things, but I ended up getting I was running the Good Morning America account, and I ended up there wasn't enough work to fill me, but my boss wouldn't take me off the account because the client adored me, so they didn't want to move me. So I got really, really bored, and I decided to go to business school. And I somehow convinced my boss to convince his boss, the head of the whole agency, to send me to Columbia's Executive MBA Program, which you had to be sponsored by your A by your company, and they had to pay for part of it. And that just wasn't, didn't happen in the advertising world. I remember one of my professors once said, You're they eat, they're young in your industry, don't they like you. Just you did not, and they did not invest in you, but they did. They invested in me, and I went, I got my MBA in Columbia's Executive MBA Program, and there, found the disciplines where I now work in leadership and organizational behavior and organizational development, and began to have confidence in my own voice, business wise, and what I knew, and this is maybe why they don't invest you. I got out of the program, and within not too many months, quit, and I went to work, actually, for a large not for profit fundraising organization, which, you know, because I was like, I'm good, I'm smart, I'm going to go do good for the world. And I ended up in a job where, once again, I just it didn't engage me enough. And I literally had a boss who liked to fight with me, because he thought I was good at fighting, and I was just really not happy. And so then in 1995 I, you know, talked to a couple of so long ago, in 1995 I was talking to a couple of my professors saying, you know, I want to do leadership, and can I be a consultant? And they said, Yeah, go ahead, you can do it. And gave me a few gigs to start. And I, I was three months pregnant with my first child, and I hung out a shingle with Chatsworth Consulting Group and started doing leadership, not actually knowing what that was, and do it, a lot of training and different, different jobs. So I actually, I was, like, hugely pregnant, and I was, I almost. Took a job teaching computer skills for American Express at a very low rate, because I was just I was like, I say, I'm a consultant, but I'm not actually doing anything. And I luckily didn't take that job, that gig. And soon thereafter, I started getting different projects from former professors, and I've been doing and growing the business ever since, and of the 1998 I think I was in front of a client doing, you know, teaching leadership skills or doing some sort of program, and the head of the head of the agency, came over to me and said, I want to be you. Do you coach? And I said, Yeah, I coach. And I went and got coach. I got certified as a coach in the late 90s, before anyone was coaching. And yeah, I've been doing it ever since. And I say, you know, when I am not working, I never want to work, and when I am working, I never want to stop. So I'm that was actually true. That's true since I got sick. So I'm either certifiable or I figured something out. I happen to love what I do. I happen to get to make a difference in people's lives. And yeah, that's, that's my those are my stories Michael Hingson ** 26:02 where the name Chatsworth consulting came from. Yeah, so Lisa Kohn ** 26:06 when I founded the company, that is a good question. The funny thing is, when I founded the company, every good name I thought of was already taken, which is actually good, because the what I do and how I do it has so evolved over the years, over the decades, but I lived on Chatsworth Avenue. That's where I lived at the time. And what makes it extra special is, at that point, my you know, someone I met, I literally met my business partner on our first day going to Columbia's executive program. We met on the subway because I introduced myself to her, and she lived in the same building as I did on Chatsworth Avenue. She wasn't my partner at the time, and then number of years later, she said, Can I join you? And so she joined me in 2002 but so now it has even more meaning, because we were both Chatsworth, but it just it was the street on which I lived, because I couldn't come up with any other names, and I didn't want to say Lisa Conan associates. So that's it. Michael Hingson ** 26:55 Hey, man, that works. Lisa Kohn ** 26:56 Hey, what else Michael Hingson ** 26:57 you said? You said you're the guy you were engaged to, drink. Is he still your, your your husband? No, Lisa Kohn ** 27:03 I managed. Wondered about that. Yeah, no. You know, I was a I can tell you I was sitting in an Al Anon meeting. You know, I postponed the wedding, but I was still sticking it out. And I was sobbing my way through some lunchtime meeting in St Patrick's Cathedral in New York City. And someone came over to me at the end of the meeting, and he said, you know, there are no victims, there are only volunteers. And I was like, Oh, I don't actually have to do this. And so, you know, when you're raised like I was, if I start talking about religious trauma and extremist thinking I was raised, I literally we were raised to live for the sake of others, to sacrifice everything for God and our True Parents, Reverend and Mrs. Moon, and saving the world. And that if we didn't, if we didn't, you know, live to the expectations we were supposed to, we would break God's heart. So I was raised to be a heavenly soldier. You know, when again, my mom left, and, you know, I couldn't cry, I couldn't miss her, couldn't be sad, couldn't be mad. It was all for God. So I just learned that I would do no matter what. And I till this day, I say, if you put something in front of me, I will do it. I will do it extremely well, even if it takes me down in the process, which isn't as true, because I've learned a lot since I got sick. But that used to be me, and so I was engaged to this man, and it was miserable, but I was gonna like, I have Al Anon. I can marry him. I can do it. And when this person came up to me and said, there are no victims, only volunteers, it's kind of was like crack that said you can do it. I just said this to a client the other day, you can do it, but just because you can do it, it doesn't mean you have to do it, or you should do it, and at luckily, at 24 I was able to say, I deserve a life that's easier and has more happiness than choosing to be with someone who was he was just really, he was really mean when he drank. So, so no, I didn't marry him. I didn't marry him. Think, you know I, you know people look at my life and it's like I, I've skirted disaster. I am, I am lucky. I have a steel rod for a spine. I don't know. I, you know, got out of the church. I almost jumped off a bridge, but I didn't I, you know, I became anorexic. And I can tell you, I am not heavy now, and I was almost 30 pounds less, you know, I was 82 pounds. I'm not tall, but I was really quits growing at 82 pounds. But then I started eating again. When I started doing cocaine with my dad, I did a heck of a lot of cocaine, and all of a sudden, every day, I was doing it. And then I just stopped doing that. And then I got into really more and more destructive and mildly or abusive relationships, and I stopped doing that. So I've, I've, I've managed to, like, avoid disaster numerous times. I'm incredibly lucky. So, yeah, well, Michael Hingson ** 29:47 and your mind has, uh, has helped you progress from all this. So did you, did you ever find someone and get married, or have a husband, or any of that kind of stuff Lisa Kohn ** 29:56 I did. I found someone, I my one of my best friends from high. School, set me up with one of his best friends from college as a joke, and we've been married 30 years. Where are you kids? Oh, yeah, we have two kids. So yeah, that's cool. Yeah, yeah. Well, Michael Hingson ** 30:12 congratulations. Well, thank Lisa Kohn ** 30:13 you very much. Michael Hingson ** 30:14 I met my wife a friend introduced us, and he was actually my friend was dating this person, sort of even though he was married, and she said, you said you were gonna leave her, and he didn't, but he was, he was the kind of guy that always had a girl in every port. Well anyway, he introduced her, this, this lady to me. And 11 months or 10 months later, we were married, and it took for 40 years until she passed away in November of 2022 and yeah, as I tell people, she's monitoring me somewhere, I am absolutely certain, and if I misbehave, I'm going to hear about it, so I have to continue to be a good kid. Lisa Kohn ** 30:55 There you go. Well, I Michael Hingson ** 30:56 gotta do Yeah, you know, but I've got 40 years of memories, and can't beat that, yeah, yeah, Lisa Kohn ** 31:02 that's good. I'm glad you did. Yeah. So Michael Hingson ** 31:05 you you formed Chatsworth, which is really pretty cool. I'm curious, though. So you didn't really have when you were growing up, at least early on, as much say about it, why do people join cults? Yes, Lisa Kohn ** 31:20 yes. Why do people join cults? They're in the wrong place at the wrong time. So I used to say everyone is susceptible to extremist thinking. I was not everybody believes that, but I do believe it to be true. I was once corrected and someone said, unless you're a a sociopath, a psychopath, or already in a cult, you're susceptible. Or as there's two cult anti cult activists who were in Nixie and the sex cult a couple years ago, and what they say is, if you think you're not susceptible, you're even more susceptible. Why? Why? Because, as human beings, we crave purpose, certainty and community and having a messiah, believing anything that extremely is absolute certainty, it is, let me tell you, it is the most powerful drug to know that you have the truth, like the Absolute Truth, you have purpose. You know why you're here. You know what you need to do. There's not Sunday, Sunday night, Monday morning, blues, because you have a purpose for your life, and as long as you don't leave or disobey, you have absolute community. So it's you know. As humans, we want to know. We want to understand, right? We make up theories and reasons in our brains, even people who say they don't, they do right? Our brains crave it. And so as you know, I heard someone say a long time ago, I repeat, all it takes is being in the wrong place at the wrong time, being the wrong person and being in the wrong state of mind, where you're just going to be a little bit open to something, and you're susceptible. And so the ones that are really successful, they know how to work with the brain to keep you in so again, as I said, we were literally taught that if you ever question anything, it's Satan. So as soon as you start to think for yourself, you you know, you do a 21 minute prayer, you fast for three days, you take a cold shower, you're being invaded by Satan, so you're afraid to think. And when you know when they're when they were first bringing people in to my cult, right? They would, one of the things they did so you would go to, they would get you away to, you know, a workshop. They would keep you not give you enough to eat, not give you enough sleep, keep you surrounded by people so you don't have time to think. And they would give you all the teachings. And then at night, they would say, just write one thing you agree with. Write it down in this journal, just one thing. And so you just want them to shut up. So you write one thing. And then you look back three days later, and your brain goes, Oh, I wrote that down. I must have believed it. So you like your brain. They work with the ways your brain wants to believe something, to get you to believe something. And as well, I don't know if you want me to curse, so I won't curse, but I'm going to quote mark Vicente on the vow, which is also about the the next scene cult. He says, No one joins a cult. They really they join a really good idea, and then they realize they were messed with because they join one human kind, under God, they join, you know, self exactly, actualization. They join some positive idea, and only exactly what they think is positive, or what's sold as a positive idea. And by the time you look back your brain, your brain wants to you. We want to think that we know what we're doing. So our brain starts to convince ourselves that we knew what we were doing, like it's just our brains crave, and you work with it, you can, you can get people to believe anything. You can get people to believe anything. It's the Michael Hingson ** 34:58 same. I hear you. It's just. Same thing as just there's so many conspiracy theorists today, yes, and it's the same exact sort of thing. They get you to believe it. They make it sound plausible. There's a woman who is a physicist who has written a book about why the World Trade Center wasn't something that was caused by terrorists or anything like that. It was really the US government, because the the amount of of ground shaking when the buildings collapsed wasn't appropriate, and all sorts of things she brings into it. And she she says it in a very convincing way, unless you look deeper, unless you know what to look for, and but, but she talks about it, and the bottom line is that it wasn't a conspiracy. And my immediate response whenever anyone says that it is and talks about what she talks about, is, I just say the difference is, I was there. I know, yeah, yeah. And you can say what you like, but I know, yeah, and, and I think that it's, it's the usual thing some people say, you know, figures can lie, and liars can figure, and it's very unfortunate that that some people just have to fulfill their lives by by doing some of these things, rather than using that knowledge and using their skills in a much more positive way. So yeah, cults, conspiracies, it's all sort of the same thing, isn't Lisa Kohn ** 36:26 it? It's all extremist belief is extremist belief is extremist belief. And once you believe, once you believe this person's conspiracy theory, then it you can believe the next things they say, like you, you, you keep going like Moon would preach things and do the opposite, and then say was providential, that God told me how to do the opposite, and then you believe. Because, again, we want to believe what we already believe. I was just ot occupational therapy for my concussion this morning, and I was just saying to the occupational therapists, right? We have a we have so many biases in our brain. I love the brain, and we have a bias that tells us we're not biased. So I have a bias that says I'm not biased. I know how objective I am. I'm careful and I'm reflective, but the rest of you are biased, but I'm not biased. So one of our biases is that we're not biased, right? And so once you believe it's you know, people saying, How could people do X, Y and Z, and how can they believe that? And I'm like, once you've chosen to believe, or you've been forced to believe, or you've been tricked to believe, you keep believing, and to break that belief is dangerous. I mean, it's just hard to leave extreme believing is extremely hard. It really is, and Michael Hingson ** 37:37 it's dangerous because somebody told you it wasn't you believe it, Lisa Kohn ** 37:40 yes, exactly, exactly yeah, Michael Hingson ** 37:44 which is so unfortunate, but just so unfortunate, yeah, but it is, it is what we face. It's Lisa Kohn ** 37:50 human nature. So how do we what do we do about it? Yeah, exactly, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 37:53 which is always that Yes. So with your life and all that is has happened, What messages do you want to share with people? What do you want people ultimately to know and to take away from today? Lisa Kohn ** 38:07 Well, I will always start with extremist. Situations exist, and we're all susceptible. They're there. They're intoxicating. They're, you know, a slippery slope. And so beware. And there's places to learn. And if you are, I always say, if you are in what you think might be a cult of any sort, there is help. When I left, I never knew there was help. I never knew there was a community. There is a community. There are a lot of online places and therapists to go to. So Michael Hingson ** 38:32 that's grown a lot over the years, hasn't it? Oh, it's Lisa Kohn ** 38:35 grown so much. I did not know. Yeah, I did not know was there at all. When I left, I left cold turkey, when my book came out in 2018 I found the cult survivor community, and my mind blew open. It's, it's definitely grown. Awareness of it, concept of religious trauma, has grown, like a lot. It's, there's, there's so much more awareness of it now in so many places to get help. The other thing I would say, I always say, if you think you're damaged or there's no hope, you are not damaged, and there is hope. There is always hope. I, you know, when I in my memoir, my my older child read my memoir, and she got to the part where I wrote about meeting their father, and it said something like, I shared my stories and my demons, and I was afraid he would not, you know, he would be able to stay because of how damaged I was, and my kids said, Wait, what's this? And I just look at I think, well, that's, I literally believe that for a very long time, but there was something wrong with me, and there is hope, and you are not damaged. There are, I call them the lies in my head. There are lies. There are lies that were put in my head intentionally to control me, and there are ways many of us have been taught, like you said, to think poorly of ourselves. So there's hope, and there's a way out of that. And I truly believe that, you know, we all need a lot more self love and self care. I do have tattooed on my arm first most, always to remind myself to love myself first most and always, um. Them, because I just think as a, you know, they do call me I lead with love. They call me love embodied when I took my positive psychology course. But really, we, all, many of us, need a huge dose of self compassion, self love, self care, kindness and gentleness, first to ourselves and then to the rest of the world. So those are, those are probably the you know, and whether it's in like, individually, or in an organization or in an offer, profit, like all of that, it is true, we're human, and we make mistakes, but there's an opportunity to really connect on a deeper, truer level, and there's an opportunity to to, it's called Post Traumatic Growth, right to heal from the trauma and heal from the things that have happened to us. And I know there are people with a lot harder stories than mine, and they're people who have gone through things like I have, and there's always, there's always a way to get help and reach out. So yeah, Michael Hingson ** 40:53 tell me about, if you would, your journey in Chatsworth consulting. You teach leadership, you teach people to lead, and you you go to leaders and or they come to you. And how do you how do you help them? Tell us a little bit more about all of that, if you would. Lisa Kohn ** 41:09 So we do a couple of different things. We do executive coaching, one on one coaching, you know, again, one client came up to me and said, do you coach? And I said, Yeah. And I got trained to be a coach back in the late 90s. I was in Al Anon at the time, and I realized it's kind of like being a sponsor only professionally. So it's our coaching is really it's based on a lot of self awareness, self knowledge. We do a incredible there's an incredible online 360 we use with people called the leadership circle profile, which helps us not only look at what like what I'm doing that's working and not but a lot of my thought patterns and beliefs and where they come from. So they call them, you know, they call them the Protect, control and wow, comply behaviors. That's the concussion kicking in. And I call them fight, fight and freeze. But like looking at the ways I coped in the world that get in my way. So we work with leaders, one on one. I'm trying to help them see what they're doing that's effective, what they're thinking that's effective, how they're connecting with other people. That's effective, and what's not we do. We work with a lot of in tech teams, leadership teams, executive teams, helping them have the hard conversations, the strategic conversations, the emotional conversations. You know, we are all human, and we all have triggers, and we all get upset, and we all have agendas, and we all have so much that gets in the way of actually just connecting, one on one with each other. So I get to sit with a group of people and help them find ways to connect more effectively and to more really, more vulnerably, more authentically, you know. And I also, I teach all the general management and leadership skills, you know, connecting with others and giving feedback and authentic leadership and all of that stuff. But truly, what ignites me in the work we do now is really kind of the feel. It's kind of like systems thinking, right? What are the systems within our organization that are operating? Then, how do you look at it, and how do you shift them to be more positive? And what are the systems that's that are operating within me, the belief systems, the you know, the ways I was trained to act, whom to act, and how do I keep the good and shift the ones that are getting in my way. So I am very lucky to do the work I do. I feel very lucky to do it Michael Hingson ** 43:25 and that, you know, that's great, and it's great to have that kind of attitude and to bring that kind of philosophy to it. What are some of the patterns that you see that a lot of leaders and so on bring to you and want fixed, or that you discover that they need to deal with. I mean, they're, they're probably a few at least, that you see a lot. Lisa Kohn ** 43:48 So yeah, I would say, well, one thing that I see so often, right, human nature? So you do a 360 or you gather feedback for someone, and all they focuses on is the constructive feedback. All they focus on is what's wrong, looking for the problem. Again, that's the negativity bias in our head, and a lot of other things. But one thing that comes off so clear is, in general, almost all the time, right people, if they're good at something, that thing that they star a star at, that thing that is like second nature to them, the thing that people so admire about them, they think it's not a big deal anybody could do that, and the thing that they are that isn't their greatest skill, that's the thing they think that's important. And it's it just, I see it over Yeah? People, my clients, be like, Well, yeah, anybody can do that? I'm like, no, nobody does that. Like you do that. Like you do that, you do that in a different way. So it's, you know, I just see that over and over and over. I see so many people like and you talk about leadership, right? So we, we so often in the business world, we promote people for being really good at what they do. And being good at what you do as an individual contributor is very. Very different than actually being able to manage other people or lead other people. And so to a lot of leaders just have a hard time getting out of the details, getting out of the weeds, actually delegating, actually letting go. We we coach our leaders to be dispensable. Our clients not said that to one client. She said, indispensable. And I said, No, dispensable. And she she literally started to cry. She said, Lisa, I spent my whole career trying to be incredibly indispensable. And she was a senior, senior leader at a major Fortune 50 company. She was powerful, she was amazing, but it gets in your way, right? We coach our clients to you know you have to be so dispensable that the people who work with you can do your job so you can go do the bigger, better stuff, more like the next stuff you need to do. Yeah, so it's, it's really, and then, you know, so many of us, right, have, unfortunately, so many people have some sort of trauma in their background. And even people who don't have major trauma in their background have had hardships or whatever, and so it's really people get so caught in their own thinking that they can't even realize that it's their own thinking in their way. So I, you know, I learned to say for my own learning and growth, right? When my brain does its wonky, silly things, it says, I've learned to say, that's the cult talking like, that's the cult. That's the cult. That's what I was trained to believe. That's not true. That's the cult. And I heard a class I'm like, take the word out cult and put in alcoholic father, you know, narcissistic first boss, you know, you know, I had a client who no harm, no blame to her parents. She had immigrant parents. They both ran, they both worked three jobs in order to support the family. And so she was taking care of her siblings when she was six. Six, she was caring for other kids, right? So she was able to say, that's that's that. And my brain, like the helping people being able to see, you know, we're so close to our brains that we don't see the kind of loopy things that we do and why we do it, but helping clients see those loopy things, right? And two, again, honestly, I spent a lot of time with seniors, senior executives, talking about self care, self compassion, being kinder to yourself, that kind of stuff. Michael Hingson ** 47:15 So that woman, who was six taking care of siblings, did she ever get to the point where she could say things like, I really learned a lot, or I value that experience because it helped me in this way or that way, Lisa Kohn ** 47:32 absolutely, absolutely. And she but, and she also got to the point where she can say, I don't have to keep doing that. I don't have to keep sacrificing myself for everybody else, right? I can, you know, I can self selfishly in quotes, in air quotes, right? I can selfishly go home earlier, at the end of the day, and actually take care of my body, because I'm about to have a baby, you know, yeah, it was so so yes and right? It's not about Yeah, it is yes. And not about like, this is awful and it's all bad. It's it is what it is. It made me who I am, and how do I want to choose to be to go forward with it? Michael Hingson ** 48:07 I was very fortunate when I started in sales. I took a Dale Carnegie sales course. The company I was working for sent me to it, because either I went from the job I was doing for them into sales, or I had to leave the company, and I, at the time, didn't want to go look for another job, especially as a blind person, with an unemployment rate among employable blind people in the 70% range, that's a real challenge. So I went into sales and took this course. And I don't even know where it came from or when I first started doing it, but one of the things that I learned as I became a manager and started hiring people and working with people, was to say, you have skills. I have skills, and my job is not to boss you around. If I'm hiring you, I'm hiring you because you convinced me that you can do the job that I'm hiring you to do, but at the same time, what I need to do is to work with you to figure out how I can enhance what you do, because my job as your boss is to enhance what you do and to make you success, or help make you more successful. But we have to do that together now, the people who really got that were successful and, and we found that there are a lot of ways that we could blend our skills together. The people who didn't get it and didn't want to do it ended up not working for the company very long. Yeah, but it was because they weren't successful, they weren't able to sell and, and I know that I have some skills that a lot of other people don't have, but it's my life upbringing, and it's my environment that taught me those things. So that's fine. It isn't to say that other people couldn't get them, and a few people would ask me from time to time, how do you do that? And we talk. It, and they got better at it too, which is fine, Lisa Kohn ** 50:02 yeah, yeah. I mean, that is, that's brilliant, right? But not every manager, not every leader gets that or knows that. So that's your role, is to enhance them, and your role is also to kind of block and tackle, right? What's getting in their way that you can what are the obstacles you can remove, what are the bridges you can build for them to go forward? But yeah, so often again, we get promoted. We get promoted for doing something well, and then we think everybody should do it our way. And it's a huge learning to realize you can do it your way, and as long as it's successful, that's great, as opposed to trying to force other people to do it my way. But I quote, I love tower Brock. Tower Brock's a mindfulness a teacher, and the quote I saw recently was, the world is divided between people who think they're right. Exactly yeah, right. We are going around thinking we're pretty right and what we're doing and yeah. So yeah. Michael Hingson ** 50:56 The other part about that, and the approach that I took, was that I was always so amazed, impressed and pleased when I was able to work with people who, as I said, Got it how much I learned, and I learned some of their skills, which helped me do my job even better, and We had a lot of fun doing it. I Lisa Kohn ** 51:23 my clients, yeah, my clients as I hope they think they learn from me, yeah, and have a lot of fun doing it exactly. People together can be it's just a generative, beautiful process when you let it be absolutely Michael Hingson ** 51:37 Well, I think that it's, it's important to do that. And as I tell people, if I'm not learning at least as much on this podcast and all the things that I get to do and interacting with people, if I'm not learning at least as much as other people, then I'm not doing my job very well. It's fun to learn, and it's fun to be open to exploring new ideas. And I sit back at the end of the day and think about them, think about what I like and don't like, but I base that on everything that I've heard, not only from a particular guest on a particular day, but everyone. So it's it's such a fun learning experience, I can't complain a bit. Lisa Kohn ** 52:18 Yeah, that's good. Yeah, life. Life can be, life can be truly joyful when you are open to learning and seeing new things. Absolutely true. Michael Hingson ** 52:25 So what do you love most about being a leadership consultant and an executive coach, you clearly sound like you're having fun. Lisa Kohn ** 52:32 I definitely have fun, and fun is hugely important. Um, you know When? When? When you see a difference in your clients, when they get something that they needed to get, or they understand, or they move ahead in a way that they hadn't, or when they're, you know, finally standing up for themselves, or finally taking time for themselves, or finally, you know, working better with it, like when they're finally doing those things they set out to do, it is it? Is it is such a gift, right? It is such a gift. And similarly, you know, when you when we're working within tech teams, and you see them connect in ways they haven't connected, or move organization forward, or the team forward, or we were just working with a we're working with one client where there's a department in this organization, and the three areas in the that department are kind of at war with each other. And when you can get them in a room where they can actually start, you know, hearing each other and listening to each other and finding ways to move together forward, it's an organization that does a heck of a lot of good in the world, so they're going to be more effective on what they're doing, even more good is going to be done in the world. So it's, it's very ratifying to be able to be someone who can, I'm told, I inspire people, but I support people. But it's, it's very it's such a gift to be able to give people something that helps them feel better and therefore live and lead better. So Michael Hingson ** 54:02 yeah, and what? And when you see the results of that, when you actually see them putting into practice the kinds of things that you talk about, and maybe they take it in a different direction than you originally thought. But of course, seeds get planted, where they get planted, and so it's the ultimate results that really count. But by the same token, when you start to see that happening, that has to be a wonderful feeling to experience, Lisa Kohn ** 54:30 hugely gratifying. And it's the concussion brain kicking in, because I know there's an example just recently where a client told me of a conversation they had or something that happened. And we have a we have a whole conversation about how you realized six months ago, when I first met you, you never would have done it in that way. You never would have shown up in the way. But I can't remember what it was, but it did happen recently, but it's my short term memory that's the most messed up right now, but we'll get there. Michael Hingson ** 54:55 Well, yeah, as I said, You just never know about seeds. And I've I've told. The story a couple times on the podcast, when I was doing student teaching in at University High School in Irvine, and I was in the teaching program, teacher credentialing program at UC Irvine, I taught high school freshman algebra is one of the two courses I taught. And there was a young man in this course. His name was Marty. He was from the eighth grade, but was very bright, and so he was accelerated for this class and a couple of things to go to a high school algebra class. And we were in class one day, and he asked a question, and it was a very easy question, and I didn't know the answer. Now, mind you, I didn't have a concussed brain. I just didn't know the answer. And immediately I thought, don't try to blow smoke with this kid. Tell him you don't know. So I said, Marty, I gotta tell you I should know the answer. I don't, but I'm gonna go find out, and I will tell you tomorrow. Okay? And he said, Yeah. So the next day, I came into class, and one of the things I love to do as a student, teacher, well as a teacher in general, if we back in those days, we use chalkboards, since I don't write, well, I would always have one of the students come up and be the official writer for the day. Everyone wanted to be the teacher's writer on the board on any given day. Well, I I came in, and I decided, because he hadn't done it for a while, that I'd have Marty come up and write when we started class. And I said, Marty, I got the answer. And he said, I do too. I said, Great, you're the Blackboard writer of the day. Come up and show us. Well, he had it right, and I had it right. So that was a good thing. But 10 years later, Oh, well. So the next thing that happened is, right after class, my master teacher, Jerry Redman, came up, and he said, you know, you absolutely did it the right way. Don't ever try to blow smoke with these kids. They'll see through it every time. Well, 10 years later, we were my wife and I at the Orange County Fair, and this guy comes up, and in this deep voice, he goes, Mr. Hingson, do you remember me? Well, if you didn't sound at all like Marty, and I said, well, not sure. Who are you? Said, I'm Marty. I was in your class 10 years ago, and I remember the algebra thing, you know, you never know where seeds are going to be planted. But that stuck with him all these years. And I didn't, I didn't think about it other than I was glad that Jerry Redman told me I did it the right way, but it was so wonderful to hear that he remembered it. So if I had any effect on him, so much the better. Lisa Kohn ** 57:32 Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Michael Hingson ** 57:35 So what did you learn from cancer? What did I learn from other than, chemo is a pain. Chemo Lisa Kohn ** 57:41 is not fun. I learned. I learned to slow down even more, like that, that again, the the amount My brother used to call me the little engine that will, no matter what you know, and I've learned to, and maybe this does, doesn't sound positive to people, but to go slower, to be gentler, to do less, to lower, you know, the push that was still in me. I mean, push is good, but too much pushes, too much of anything, is not good. I learned to appreciate life even more, nothing like a cancer diagnosis to kind of make you do that life. I keep saying, no matter what, any way you look at it, my life, life's going to be too short for me, so make the most of it. And I learned to have more of a voice of my own. I again, I was, you know, the way I was raised, and the cult I was raised, and the things that happened made me not be aware that I had wants or needs, or not think it was okay to have wants or needs. I I have a therapist, and I literally will say, am I allowed to Am I allowed to feel that way? Am I allowed to want that she's like allowed, but it was so structured, and so cancer taught me to put myself more first than I ever had, which for maybe there's some people who don't need that. I think a lot of people probably do. But for me to learn to, like, put myself and my needs and what my body and my health require up on the top of the list was a huge learning for me. So it really, it was all journeys that I was already on. But it really just, you know, I will say, like, before, before the cancer, I never really wanted to stop doing the work that I do. I love the work that I do. And since the cancer, it's like, yeah, I love it. And I just, I don't, I still don't I mean things that then I had more surgery and more COVID and then the concussion. Like, I physically am not full at strength, and I don't know if I'll ever be full strength again, but I definitely learned that I don't have to have that. Like, do it all. Do it now. Do it fast. Kind of Martin, I get another song, marching on heavenly soldiers, right with a pack. Pounding fist. That was that I grew up with. So it really, you know, now I'm like, okay, universe, I got it. I don't need another lesson. Like, I'm I'm good. I don't need another medical issue. I was planning to go into 2024, with no medical issues, and I can cuss on january 3, which just made me crack up. Like, really out of my control. Um, but, uh, yeah, it's so yeah, even more gentle, even more gentle, more gentle, and Michael Hingson ** 1:00:25 you don't have to feel guilty about it, and Lisa Kohn ** 1:00:27 you thank you, and you don't have to feel guilty about it, right? We're, we're either taught not to take care of ourselves or to take care of ourselves and feel guilty for taking care of ourselves. And it's just that's a lie, right? Yeah, it's okay to just be like, I this is what I want. This is what I need. This is what I like. My couch is right there, like, and I've spent a lot of time just lying on my couch or my hammock on the nice days, doing nothing. And, yeah, for me to not feel guilty about that is huge growth. And I've been at like, if I'm I turned 60 last year, and, you know, I left the church when I was about 20, give or take two years, either way, it's been 40 years and it's still in there and yeah, but yeah, to just be nice to ourselves and not feel guilty, that's my message. Michael Hingson ** 1:01:10 Well, if people would like to reach out to you and maybe explore working with you and letting you be a coach or consulting with you, how do they do that? Lisa Kohn ** 1:01:19 The easiest way to find me, honestly, is to Google. Lisa Cohn, as long as you spell the last name right, which is k as in kite, O, H N as in Nancy, because I will pop up and you will find me. But the company is Chatsworth Consulting Group, so it's C as in cat H as in Harry, a T as in Tom, s, as in Sam, the word worth consulting all one word, Chatsworth consulting.com Chatsworth consulting.com and then my writing work is Lisa Cohn writes, l, i s, a, k, O, H, N, W, R, W, R, I T, E, s.com, so you can find me at either one of those, Chatsworth consulting.com or Lisa conrights.com or again, if you, if you Google Lisa Coney, spell my name right? I am quite prolific, and I will probably be on the first page of Google, which is really funny. If you Google my brother, I still used to show up on the first page. So I was like, Sorry. Didn't mean to do that to you. Michael Hingson ** 1:02:17 I hope he copes pretty well with it. Lisa Kohn ** 1:02:18 He copes very well. Oh, good. Yeah. Well, Michael Hingson ** 1:02:22 I want to thank you for being here. This has been enlightening, and it's been intriguing, and you've kept me focused for an hour, which is always good. I hope everyone enjoyed it as well, and that people will reach out to you. I'd love to hear from you if you like what we had to say today. Or if you have any thoughts, I would really appreciate it. If you would reach out to me, you can reach me at Michael h i@accessibe.com that's m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I at A, C, C, E, S, S, I b, e.com, or you can go to our podcast page, which is w, w, w, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael hingson is m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o, n.com/podcast, wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating. We really value those, and we value your comments, your thoughts, um, we've gotten some from people who've seen us on YouTube. I love those. But wherever you're listening, please reach out. We'd love to hear what you have to say. And of course, Lisa for you and everyone else listening. If you know of anyone else who want to be a guest on our podcast, please let me know. You know how to email me now, and I would love to hear from you. We're always looking for more people who want to be guests on unstoppable mindset, and we enjoy people and their stories. I believe everyone in the world has a story to tell and has things to say, and we're glad to be able to help people do that. So again, Lisa, I just want to thank you for being here. This has been fun, and we'll have to do it again sometime, but thank you. Lisa Kohn ** 1:04:00 Thank you, Michael, it's been great being here. I love to hear from everyone. I'd love to stay in touch with you, and thank you so much. **Michael Hingson ** 1:04:10 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.
