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Our guest this time, Danielle Marshall, is an executive coach especially in the nonprofit sector. As she tells us she also works with small businesses to help them build a stronger foundation for working within their organizations as well as with customers and elsewhere. Danielle grew up in Queens and describes her childhood as living in an apartment building among many and diverse cultures. This experience helps her even today to understand and embrace the differences between all of us. Danielle attended Howard University where she received her Bachelor’s degree in Speech Pathology. However, she never got a job in that field. She went on in her studies and received a Master’s degree in industrial organizational psychology. After working in Americorp and other nonprofit agencies for many years, the pandemic forced her to open her own full-time coaching business in March of 2020. She still coaches nonprofit leaders as well as others to help them better understand and actively support people no matter their cultural and other differences. I get to have a GREAT discussion with Danielle about how all of us, no matter our differences are all part of the same environment. While Danielle mainly concentrates on racial differences she clearly recognizes and understands that race is not the only issue she must address. She is quick to point out, for example, that persons with disabilities are just as part of the racial makeup of society as race itself. As she says, while she is not an expert on disabilities, when she encounters in her work someone with a disability she seeks out a partner more knowledgeable on disabilities to help her. I found Danielle to be very open minded, curious and very willing to help create a more inclusive world for all. I think you will be inspired by her and hopefully some of you will reach out to her. About the Guest: A dedicated advocate for equity and inclusion, Danielle is the founder of Culture Principles and a Certified Diversity Professional. Her career is focused on guiding organizations to integrate Racial Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion into their operational frameworks. With an insightful understanding of industry trends and a commitment to collaborative growth, Danielle develops tailored strategies that enhance team dynamics and problem-solving skills. Her influential work includes a partnership with the Conscious Collaboratory, where she co-created the program Reimagining Racial Equity, aimed at helping business leaders incorporate racial equity into their organizations. Danielle also excels in coaching senior leaders to develop their cultural competencies, equipping them with the knowledge and skills to lead inclusively in diverse environments. Her approach involves personalized coaching sessions and workshops that focus on understanding and appreciating cultural differences, fostering empathy, and enhancing communication skills within multicultural contexts. As a compelling speaker and ICF-certified Executive Coach, Danielle's engaging presence inspires audiences globally. Holding a Master's degree in Industrial-Organizational Psychology, her deep commitment to equity and inclusion has established her as a respected thought leader and agent for meaningful change. Ways to connect with Danielle: Website: https://www.culture-principles.com/ Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danimarshall/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cultureprinciples/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi and welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset. We are really, I think, blessed today, I have a person who is our guest. Her name is Danielle Marshall, and Danielle has a background in industrial organization psychology, not sure about the organization. You're going to have to help with that, but that's okay. She's been involved with dealing with nonprofits and concerning children for 20 years, and she saw a disconnect between narratives about children and her actual on the ground experiences, and I'm really fascinated to learn about that she does a lot in the world of diversity, equity and inclusion, dealing with race and so on. So we'll have to see how much she does with disabilities. Just to pick on her a little bit, that'll be fun. But we don't really like to pick on people too much unless they're politicians, and then the rule is you got to pick on everybody. You can't just pick on a few. So we don't deal with politicians because it's just way too much fun to pick on politicians anyway. Well, Danielle, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Michael, Danielle Marshall ** 02:35 thank you. I'm not sure I've ever had an introduction quite like that. Michael Hingson ** 02:40 Don't you think it's true, though, that we ought to just pick on all politicians, Danielle Marshall ** 02:43 sure what they pick on themselves. Michael Hingson ** 02:46 They do a good job, and then they leave all these openings for the rest of us. Right? Absolutely, and it's true of all of them. So as I tell people, I'm an equal opportunity abuser, so it's really better to just stay away from it. We have too much fun doing other kinds of things anyway, which is exactly what unstoppable mindset is all about. But I'm really glad that you're here. Then seriously, it'll be fun to hear some of the stories and to hear about the things that you have done and why you do what you do, and the observations that you've made. I think it's really pretty fascinating. But why don't we start, if we can, and if you will, why don't you tell us kind of about the early Danielle growing up, and some of that stuff always good to start that process. Danielle Marshall ** 03:33 Sure. Well, I grew up as a 70s child in New York City, so that was my, sort of, my origin story. And I think it lends itself, quite frankly, to where I've ended up today. New York is one of the most diverse cities in the US, and definitely was true when I was growing up, also large, you know, large metropolitan area. And so where in New York I grew up in Queens, predominantly in Queens city. And, you know, when I think about the exposure I had to things as as a child, it really is telling that I would end up doing this work. You know, I grew up in an apartment building, and literally, everyone lived in the apartment building with us. You know, we had people from different racial groups and ethnic ethnicities, and there was Spanish music playing and Indian food cooking. And so, you know, my childhood really was a a broad opportunity to just dive in and talk to people and learn about their cultures and just really get familiar. And so I think it was interesting for me, because I don't feel like I ever grew up tolerating people. It was just we accepted each other, we lived amongst each other, Michael Hingson ** 04:44 yeah. And was kind of an environment where, well, a very heterogeneous environment by any standard. And you, you learned up front, I would presume, pretty much how to get along, Danielle Marshall ** 04:55 yeah, for the most part, yeah. I mean, no different, though, and I will put this caveat out. Out there that as kids, you know, we, no matter if it is a heterogeneous group or homogeneous, we're still going to have conflict, right? That's people. That's human nature. And the difference, though, and I'm really excited that I had this opportunity at such an early age, is that we learn to navigate the conflict within those groups early on. So, you know, it was never isolated to we only deal with our own community literally. And I know this is not true for everyone that grew up in New York, but it was definitely my experience. Well, Michael Hingson ** 05:28 your community was everyone, everyone and all sorts of different kinds of people, which was so cool and something that it'd be nice to see a whole lot more of, and people really learn to understand the whole lot more of all sorts of different kinds of 05:43 people, for sure. Michael Hingson ** 05:45 So when you were in New York, did you ever eat at Peter Lucas? Danielle Marshall ** 05:50 I actually did not have a memory of it, perhaps, but I don't remember that. Michael Hingson ** 05:57 I always liked Ruth's Chris steakhouse better than Peter Lucas, but I've been to Peter Lucas on a couple of sales presentations, so I've eaten there twice. And I don't know was it's, I wonder if it's still there, just with everything that happened during the pandemic. You know, who knows? I know. Tavern on the green after September 11 closed for a while, and then it finally reopened. But it's just really too bad, and Hurley's saloon had to relocate because their lease went way up. Hurley's was one of those restaurants that started well, when it started, the Hurley brothers leased the space, and then the Rockefellers wanted to put up NBC and Rockefeller Center, and they put it up, but they wanted to buy out Hurley's, and Hurley said, No, we're going to keep it. And they had a 99 year lease. But unfortunately, when the 99 year lease was over, the rent quadrupled, and they ended up relocating over to a place on what was it? It was on 48th between I think it was Broadway and eighth, or eighth and ninth, right in that area, but I was always liked Hurley's, that was a fun place. So many stories because NBC, when they did build the facility in Rockefeller Center, some of the reporters ran a phone line from some of the places in NBC to Hurley. So they hung out in Hurley's and stayed at the bar, and then if something came in, their phone rang under the bar, and they grabbed the phone and went off and did what they did. Sure, sure, lovely history, only in New York. Danielle Marshall ** 07:36 Many things happen in New York and nowhere else. Michael Hingson ** 07:39 Well, so what got you? So you went to college, and where did you do that? Danielle Marshall ** 07:45 Where I went to Howard University. So I came down to Washington, DC, okay? And while I was there, I ended up serving as a AmeriCorps member for two years with a program called jump start for young children. And it was, I think, really the beginning, if you will, of this journey as I understand it today, at least, it started to come to the forefront for me. Because what happened while I was in service is we were working in a number of Head Start schools around the District of Columbia, and I was serving primarily black and brown children in in the schools. And it was the first time I had really heard this narrative that would then follow me, regardless of where I live throughout the country. And the narrative was very much centered on who the children and families were that we serve. So, you know, there were often stories about the outcomes that they would achieve in life, what what levels of success they would be able to to get to who their families were, etc. But what I distinctly remember is that many of those narratives that I was hearing were not coming from people that were representative of that community. They didn't live there. They didn't represent the cultural groups we were serving, so they sort of had an outside perspective about who these community members were. And what was really disheartening for me at the time is that the narratives were very negative and, you know, and again, they didn't serve this community, but also misguided in the sense that they came from outsiders. And so I remember, even at that time, wanting to spend more of my efforts around narrative shifting, which is a big feature in the work that I do right now, because it began to dawn on me, though I yet, I yet to have, like the words at that moment, that it was never about the the children or the families. It was it was really about the systems. It was something broader that was leading to the outcomes that these kids were experiencing, not any default or deficit within them. Michael Hingson ** 09:49 You know, it's interesting, because I can equate that to disabilities and specifically blindness, the same sort of thing, the narrative all the time is what blind people can. And can't do. Mostly can't, and it comes from people who are not blind, who have never tried being blind, and unfortunately, all too often, the so called professionals in the industry who have no real clue nor expectations about what people who happen to be blind can and cannot do. And the reality is, mostly we can do anything that we choose to, if given the opportunity. And so we end up finding the same narrative. I remember one person telling me about a story where they were at a meeting. He happened to be blind and was the CEO of a blindness organization, and somehow they got on to a discussion of the names of the organizations and that they really needed to somehow figure out how to get blind out of the names of their organizations. And this guy said, Wait a minute, what are you talking about? Your blindness organizations? You know, let's let's see. How many of you would really like to take the word blind out of your organization names. And there were, I think, 25 people in the room, and 24 out of 25 raised their hands. And of course, most all of them were not blind, but they wanted to take blind out of their organization name, just because of the view that they had. And as this person pointed out, you are serving and dealing with blind people. How could you ever consider taking blind out of the name of your organization? Blind isn't the problem. It's your attitudes and your perceptions. Yeah, so it seems exact same sort of thing? Yeah, Danielle Marshall ** 11:34 absolutely. It's funny that even as you say that I'm having a I had a little bit of a reaction, because I hear that so much when people say, Well, why do you have to talk about race, or why did you have to say that this was a black person or a white person or an Asian person? Well, that's because that's who they are, right there. It doesn't change because you are uncomfortable having that conversation. It's still representative of that individual. Michael Hingson ** 11:59 And it also doesn't mean that any of them are less capable than anyone else. Well, 100% Danielle Marshall ** 12:04 like that. That goes without saying for me, but I think I am appreciating your point right now, because it needs discussion, because some people still believe that an association with a particular group, whether it be cultural ability level, etc, means that that narrative that exists in their mind that's negative is true, and Michael Hingson ** 12:23 unfortunately, when we talk a lot about diversity and inclusion, especially the whole area of diversity, diversity usually centers around race, gender, sexual orientation and so on, and it Never centers or really brings in disabilities, even though we as a minority are much larger than all of the other minority groups that you can talk about. And yet we don't see disabilities being brought in. And it reminds me of a story. There's a book called all on fire by Henry Mayer. Have you ever read it? Danielle Marshall ** 12:56 I haven't read that one. Michael Hingson ** 12:58 So it's about William Lloyd Garrison, the abolitionist in the 1840s and he was looking for people to really join the movement and help in the abolition movement. And there were some two sisters, the grim K sisters, who were very much involved in women's suffrage. And he told his people, we really need to get them to come and be involved in what we're doing. And they said, Well, why would we do that? They're not interested in this. They're all interested in women's efforts and so on. Why would they even be interested in in in what we're doing? It would just kind of really divide off, and it would completely separate from what what we're about. And and Garrison said, you really don't get it. It's all the same thing. And it's unfortunate that we don't see that. So even the people who are involved in diversity, all too often decide they're going to specialize in one thing, but in reality, it's all the same thing. Danielle Marshall ** 13:58 Yeah, I, you know, I I think that there are certain people who have niched down so like, my focus is racial equity, but I will tell you this, I don't miss disability or ability levels in my conversation, either, because what I'm more focused on is I pick a central part to start, which, for me, happens to be race, right? But what I would say to anyone who brings into the conversation, well, we have to talk about, we have to talk about gender, and we have to talk about, you know, I, you know, I'm a gay person, or I am in a wheelchair, all of these things start to come in for people in the conversation. And what I would say is that if I were to center on race, and even more specifically, let's say I picked a particular racial group that I'm centering on. If I centered the conversation on blackness, please understand and this is really, I think, important for listeners, viewers, today, for every racial group or any cultural group that you deal with the intersections that are out. For them cross every other identity. So if I chose a black person or a blackness as a racial group, there are going to be people who are, you know, they have different sexualities, they have different ability levels, they have different religions. And so, you know, as I'm thinking, different genders, you name it, different social, economic status. So no group is a monolith on its own. So if you are doing this work with intentionality, you are bringing in the other identities. And I understand it's not everyone out there that's doing it, but to me, there is very much a there's a place in this conversation for all of us, because I have chosen to center on one thing, and for me, I center on race first, because it's one of the conversations we have a very difficult time having in this country. Yeah, but we do build that muscle, but it is not to the exclusion of every identity other than a racial identity, because we all exist within, you know, a particular race. Michael Hingson ** 15:55 And, you know, I've had a number of people come on the podcast who talk about diversity and so on. And very, very seldom do people say exactly what you just said, which makes perfect sense. I mean, there's nothing wrong with the fact that you focus mainly on race and particularly niches, but you would not do it to the exclusion of other things, and that's the important part. I've had some people who came on and they, and I've asked them to define diversity, and they say, oh, it's all about sexual orientation, race and gender and so on. And I said, What about disabilities? Oh, that's, that's social justice. No, it's not. It's not social justice. It's a completely different sort of thing. And that's, that's what's so unfortunate that we really don't understand that there's so many aspects of it. I mean, from that standpoint, in parts of the world, you could say the same thing about Caucasian people who happen to be a minority, and probably in other areas, are just as misunderstood in some ways. Danielle Marshall ** 17:00 Sure, sure, you know, I would add something I think that's valuable, you know, if we're to think about expanding this conversation. So I don't think it's enough to simply say, I'm going to include information about, you know, disability and in this, in this discussion. But what I would say, as someone who focuses on racial equity, my expertise in disability isn't as strong. Sure, that's not my area. However, if done well, I can bring in a partner who does focus on that exactly. So now we have a stronger opportunity to really dig in and to do the work I have an opportunity right now that I'm working on where there's another gentleman in as part of the group who has a visual impairment, and he was teaching me a little bit about the technology. So if we're using zoom, what he has access to, what he doesn't have access to, access to. And so that's been really important to me, because these are things that I could very easily overlook. I tried to stay up to up to date on making sure that all the technology I personally use is accessible. But because technology changes so quickly, and this is not my area of specialties, literally, I need someone else who focuses on this to be like, Hey, have you heard this new update? Are you aware this thing is happening? Here's a new technology you can build into your own practice. Michael Hingson ** 18:19 Sure, and that is exactly the way it ought to be. And, oh, by the way, just, just to point out, visual impairment is is a horrible term. It's like deaf people being called hearing impaired. You know, they they would execute you on the spot if they could, if you said hearing impaired. And the reason that visual impairment is bad, and it was created by the experts, the so called experts. First of all, visually, we're not different. You don't look different simply because you're blind. But the big issue is impaired, because immediately you're equating a person who doesn't see or doesn't see as well. You're equating their level of eyesight to people who have perfect eyesight. So the better term is blind and low vision, as opposed to visually impaired, for the obvious grammatical and logical reasons. But again, you wouldn't know that unless somebody talked to you about it, and other people wouldn't. But we really need to grow and recognize that all too often, words matter in so many ways, which is why we don't say Indians anymore. We say Native Americans or something like that. And, you know, in so many different ways, but, but the reality is, of course, you wouldn't know all about zoom you wouldn't know about screen readers and those, those kinds of technologies. And I'll tell you right now, if I can never help, all you have to do is yell. Danielle Marshall ** 19:43 I will most certainly reach out. So Michael, you know what you did is you just offered me a gift in this moment. So I appreciate the feedback and the reframing of the language, because I think that is what this work is about. I am not bothered that you have just corrected me in this moment. I'm welcoming, welcoming in this session. An opportunity to learn. Michael Hingson ** 20:00 It's not so much a correction, isn't Yeah, I'm sorry, go ahead, but to me, it Danielle Marshall ** 20:04 is a correction, and that's okay, right? Like we have to get comfortable with the fact that sometimes, even as a professional in this space, I am going to mistake misspeak at times, and that is okay because I can own it and then really incorporate that into my work. And so the reason I am even focusing on this right now is one. I am offering this back as gratitude to you. But the second is, for all of us out there that are afraid to lean into this work, one of the reasons people tend to be so afraid and shy away from it is that there, there's a fear of getting it wrong. All too Go ahead, please. Michael Hingson ** 20:39 All too often today, there's still lots of blind folks who say, I'm visually impaired, and no, you're not, because we haven't, as as a group, really totally learned and understand it. Some people because they had eyesight and they lost it, and they regard themselves as being impaired, but they're not, and then the fact that they think they're impaired is the problem. But even totally blind people from birth sometimes think, well, I'm visually impaired, because they've learned that it's all about how much eyesight you have or don't have. So let's, let's do this a different way. Do you have a disability? Danielle Marshall ** 21:18 I do? I have a hidden disability, okay, Michael Hingson ** 21:20 which is, Danielle Marshall ** 21:22 I am a diabetic. Okay, Michael Hingson ** 21:25 now let's talk about your non hidden disability. And this is my belief, and I talk about it fairly often on the podcast when I get the chance preaching again, in 1878 Thomas Edison invented the electric light bulb. Why he invented the electric light bulb so light dependent people would have a way to be able to function in the dark. It doesn't mean that you don't still have the disability that we have spent so much time making light on demand, available so frequently and so ubiquitously, if you will. I'm not sure that's a good word, but the reality is, one of your disabilities is your light dependents. If the lights go out and you can't grab a flashlight or a smartphone right away, you're in a world of hurt. It doesn't cover it doesn't change your disability. It covers it up, but it's still there. And now getting people to understand and accept that is is a lot harder. But the whole point of it is, we all have challenges. And the reality is disability is not a lack of ability. And I've had some diversity. People say to me, well, but this starts out disability, so of course, it means a lack of ability. Yeah. Well, what do you do with the word disciple, then, or discern or discrete? Let's you know, the reality is, dis has nothing to do with it. It's what we decided is, and we've been so good, especially in the last 30 years, about changing language, it's time to really reframe it. But disability is a characteristic in one way or another that we all have. It just manifests itself differently, and getting people to to recognize that is a different story, but it is still what we really need to do so that people understand we all have challenges, and our challenges may very well be different than most every other person. Then that's okay, but we need to accept people and understand that usually they can help us just as much as we can help them. Danielle Marshall ** 23:26 Of course, I absolutely agree with that. Michael Hingson ** 23:30 Well, so you went off to Howard, and what did you What degree did you get at Howard? Danielle Marshall ** 23:36 I am a speech pathologist. By my degree at Howard, I never actually used the degree. It was not something that I was I was interested in pursuing beyond the the undergraduate level, but I did minor in psychology, and so I went on to get a degree in industrial organizational psychology. Michael Hingson ** 23:53 Now tell me about this organizational part. I told you I'd have to ask that. It's a great term. It's like an oxymoron, you know, Army intelligence. But tell me about industrial organization psychology. Danielle Marshall ** 24:03 I think you can just look at it as you know it is, the psychology of organizations like I joke with people often that I think about the world, and in many ways as a case study. And so there are a variety of things that people that are in i o psychology do? They may be, you know, working on hiring and retention. They may be working on culture surveys, how we streamline our workforce, like there's a number of things that they do. What I have done, though, is pull on this thread of culture Well, being in organizations and really thinking about equity. For in particular, bipoc leaders, staff members, etc. Michael Hingson ** 24:46 So how have your experiences made you kind of uniquely able to deal with what you do? Because clearly our experiences will usually lead us to do what we do. And so in your case, how. Did experience really make that happen? Danielle Marshall ** 25:03 Yeah, I mean, that's a big question. I feel like everything that I have done over the course of my life sort of led me to this place, but I did not know that this was the destination. And to be fair, this may not be the final destination, right? There's still time, hopefully, that I have to arrive at said destination. But I had a flashback the other day because I was actually reading a book where someone had talked about being an anthropologist, and I remembered, and I hadn't thought about this in years, when I was in high school, and maybe this is Junior year or senior year, I went to my guidance counselor, and I told her, you know, we were we were talking about what we wanted to major in and what we want it to be when we grew up. And I said to the individual, I want to be an anthropologist. And she looked at me and she kind of scoffed, and she's like, No one's going to want to talk about culture and histories like that. That's past it. You'll never get paid for it. And that's crazy. Yeah, yeah. It knocked the wind out of me in that moment, because I'm like, I'm here in the capacity of, like, sharing my dreams, my aspirations with you. You're my guidance counselor. You're supposed to be guiding me. But in that moment, I felt really shut down. And so as a result of that, I made a change when it came to to going to college, right? I changed what I was thinking about. I was looking at this person as you know, someone literally because you're the guidance counselor, you have more wisdom than I do in this area, and so I let that affect how I move forward at the undergraduate level, only to find myself somewhat years later, like I may not be a anthropologist, but I certainly am someone who loves to study culture. I love to understand how people think, why they move, the way they do, what their values and their norms are. And so as I think about that, like they're all of these little touch points along my journey that I would say have brought me to this place, working, you know, in DC, in AmeriCorps program, and hearing the narrative shifts, and again, people talking about the cultural norms and values and getting it wrong about those communities. And so my my goal was like, how do we set the record right? How do we empower people to to not only survive, but to to thrive? And I was like, we have to address the systems. Yeah, Michael Hingson ** 27:21 I've always been a believer in that all the experiences that we have help build and help us wherever we go. So how does speech pathology help you? Well, Danielle Marshall ** 27:36 it has certainly taught me to slow down. You know, one of the things in speech pathology that we did a lot of was repetitive because the people that are coming into the program either they are working on developing speech like if it was a young child, or maybe it's someone who has had an accident or a stroke, and they're they're learning to speak again. There was so much around the repetitive nature of it. There was so much around slowing down, being patient, meeting the client, where they were, that I feel like in a strange way, I suppose. And I had never really thought about that like it does lend itself to where I find myself today. Because when I think about the work that I'm doing, if I'm teaching racial equity principles, if I'm helping groups to understand how to apply an equity lens in their thinking. A lot of this is repetition, making sure that you fundamentally understand the concepts that we've repeated it, that you can see how it might apply in different contexts. The slowing down meeting people at their level, you can't just jump into the conversation and assume people are starting from the same knowledge base that you are. Right? So how do I level set in the moment for that client. Michael Hingson ** 28:42 There you go. You know, my master's degree is in physics. I never thought that I would be a full time public speaker and doing a podcast and so on. But I also from physics went my first job was doing something not directly related to physics, but it was involving high tech. And the reason physics helped me there is that it really taught me all the values of technology and to be curious about technology. And then, after starting that job, three years later, I ended up going into sales. And one of the things that physics really taught me was, professors always said, you really have to pay attention to all details. Don't make assumptions. That helped me a great deal in sales and then with sales and doing sales for 22 years, until September 11, and I still sale sell, but now it's not technology sales, but still, it was all about being curious, all about paying attention to the details and learning to communicate with people and hello that led to public speaking. So I really do believe that all the things that we do help us build toward whatever it is that we do now and whatever is. Next, whatever that is, Danielle Marshall ** 30:03 certainly, and it Michael Hingson ** 30:04 makes perfect sense that I'm, you know, so that's why I was really curious about speech pathology. And I had never thought about the fact that, yes, that you have to really slow down, and that's a very important thing in all the things that you're doing today, because it also helps you be a better listener Danielle Marshall ** 30:22 that is critical to the work that I do. And you know, Michael, I'm also an executive coach, and so listening feels like it falls into the very essence of my work. I am there to ask people questions and obviously listen to their responses, or maybe not so obviously, but that is what I am I'm doing is I'm listening to hear maybe the things that go unsaid as well. What am I noticing in the conversation that might be helpful for the client to ultimately get to this place of greater understanding by just listening back to their own words Michael Hingson ** 30:56 and maybe echoing them back and making them listen to them? Danielle Marshall ** 30:59 Yes, so sometimes I have to stop and just say, I want to, I want to offer a noticing with your permission, right? And I'd like to repeat back to you something that you said, like, how does that land on you? So when we're having those conversations, you know, we we talk so much as people that we don't often listen to ourselves as we're saying that, you know. And I kind of joke with people in that game show that was around years ago. And people would say, like, Is that your final answer? Yeah, because I want you to really make sure that you've had time to think about what you've said. And yeah, and make modifications if you need to. Michael Hingson ** 31:34 The more it seems to me that you think about what you say, then the better you are at saying what you really want to say more quickly because you've really thought about it. And you, you develop that mind muscle, which is so important, Danielle Marshall ** 31:49 yeah, I hadn't thought about it that way, but it does lead to a different level of efficiency, for sure, yeah, for sure. Michael Hingson ** 31:55 But still, even even so, sometimes you say things and you, you didn't think them through, and it's a mind muscle that a lot of times we don't really develop very well, or not nearly as well as we could, but it makes a lot of sense to do it. Yeah, Danielle Marshall ** 32:12 I think it speaks to our ability to really dive into introspection, right? And to self reflect as a normal practice in our world. Very few people that I talk to spend much time on it, like they will do some self reflection, but it's not a normal practice for them. And the thing is, when I consider, for instance, for me, it's writing, when I need to get clear on something I write, and the Writing helps me. It helps for my my business, because I'm able to publish lots of articles and blogs so forth. But the reason that they're coming out at the speed that they are is because I'll be gnawing on a question, right? Or I'll have had a conversation as as I'm digesting that I'm like, I just need to get it on paper so I can get out of my head and then look back at the notes that I've taken and say, does this actually jive with how you feel in this moment? Is there something that you might adjust to your way of thinking? And so regardless of whether you're doing the thinking in your head or on paper or, you know, out loud in conversation, there needs to be an opportunity to really sort of digest what your experiences are, to process them, because to the point that you made like you can call on the words a lot faster, because you're clear on your position, right? I know what my position is. I don't actually have to sit back and say, Hmm, I wonder about that, because I've thought about it already. Yeah, Michael Hingson ** 33:32 I am a firm believer in introspection. I'm writing, well, I've written, and later in August of this year, my new book, live like a guide dog. True Stories from a blind man and his dogs about being brave, overcoming adversity and walking in faith, will be published. And one of the things that I talk about a lot is the whole concept of introspection, because I believe, and I've learned not to say I'm my own worst critic anymore, because I think that's so negative, but rather, I'm my own best teacher, and I only can teach myself when I really sit down and think about it. I've never been a great journalist, but typically I can do it by thinking about it, and then eventually, when I write something down, I'm writing it down because I'm creating an article or preparing for a podcast or whatever, and I'll look at it, and I might tweak it even then, but I do like to spend a lot of time thinking and looking at what I do and thinking about what I do, because I think it's so important, and I wish more of us would do more of that. Danielle Marshall ** 34:38 Yeah, absolutely. I think there's just so much potential for growth. You know, when we're spending that time reflecting, how did I show up in the moment? You know, am I walking in alignment with my own values right now? Is there something I want to learn? There's just so many spaces that we could enter in when we quiet our minds long enough to just be present with what feels real for us Michael Hingson ** 34:59 and. Is always time to do that. So many people I've heard say, but I don't really have time. Of course, you do. It's a matter of priority. Yeah, Danielle Marshall ** 35:08 I'm laughing because I just talked about this earlier. I am in my world when people say they don't have time, it is often related to whether it is dei or leaning into cultural competencies and learning more about different cultures. And I would say to them, like, Hey, you develop these goals. Tell me a little bit about where you are. And oh, well, you know, I got busy, and so it didn't happen. But as a coach, my job is to probe a little bit deeper. And so as I'm listening to them say I got busy, I'm like, Well, what does that mean? And the reality is, we start to uncover some other things, and they're like, Well, you know, I have to have this really difficult conversation with someone at work, and that makes me uncomfortable. You know what? I'm too busy to handle this, right? Or they, they may default to something else where they're like, hey, you know, to learn more about cultural awareness, I actually have to examine my own culture and some of the elements that I may not like as much about my own cultural group. I don't want to do that. I'm really just too busy to dedicate the time, and so at the end of the day, it's kind of amusing, because I'm like, busyness is the default statement, but it is often the excuse, not the actuality of what's happening. Yeah, Michael Hingson ** 36:16 that makes sense, and I buy that 100% makes perfect sense. How does cultural competency play into all that you do in terms of developing teams and working with organizations and so on? Danielle Marshall ** 36:31 Yeah, cultural competency is is really core to the work at the end of the day. Because when we talk about this, and just for a pretty simple definition, for people who have not heard this before, is when we're talking about cultural competency. It's our ability to communicate, to interact, to work across cultural difference, you know? So if we're talking about culture again, it could be everything from disability. I will start with that now. Thank you, Michael, Michael Hingson ** 36:55 you know, no pressure. You don't have to. That's okay. No, no Danielle Marshall ** 36:59 pressure at all. But I, the thing is, I want people to see themselves in this, right? So any group, cultural group, where there are shared norms, patterns, values, right? How do you work across difference when you you're not a member of that group? How do you interact with people effectively? How do you communicate with them? And so cultural competence, competency is the ability to do just that. So when, when I think about the work that we're doing, that's really important, because people often will come in to the work and they believe that there is a particular right way to do things, and the fastest way to sort of negate that is, I'm like, I want you to actually think about your own culture. What's your background, what are the beliefs, the patterns, the norms that you grew up with, and also to be able to hear from other people, what are the you know, the norms, the values, the patterns that they grew up with? It's not that one is right or wrong, it's just the one that's familiar to you, thus is often your preference. Yeah, Michael Hingson ** 37:55 yeah. And, and the the reality is that you're not the only game in town, Danielle Marshall ** 38:01 exactly, and we are to work across difference. To be able to collaborate together, I must be able to recognize in you, okay, maybe we do move differently through the world, and even though it is a different choice than I personally might make based on my cultural background, it isn't right or wrong, it's simply different, different Michael Hingson ** 38:19 I've thought a lot about disabilities, and one of the things that I felt was a challenge for people with disabilities, and you just made me think differently about it, is that the problem with with disabilities is that, in reality, the needs and most all of the issues regarding, let's say people who are blind are different from people who are in a wheelchair or different from people who are deaf or who may be on the who may be autistic or whatever. But the reality is, what I really just figured out, and should have figured out a long time ago, I have to hit myself upside the head later, is it's just as true for race, for for black or for Asian or whatever, it's the same thing. So it really isn't any more of a weakness for disabilities, other than maybe in some senses, physically, there are a lot more things that appear different, but the but the fact of the matter is, we all have differences in what we do, and that's the cultural differences, Danielle Marshall ** 39:20 absolutely, and it's important, I think, for people to understand that no group of people is a monolith. Yeah, there are always going to be differences within us, you know. And I often for people that really can't see their way out of that, I will ask them to consider for a second, you know, if I said to you, Michael, are all blind, and I'm going to be very specific men the same, your answer would be, what? No, absolutely not, right? And yet we Yeah, make an assumption about other groups, like, well, you know, that's just how they are. And I'm like, Who's Who's they? Michael Hingson ** 39:57 Who's they? Yeah, and. The reality is, a lot of people would say, well, all blind men are the same, and they're not, Danielle Marshall ** 40:03 but, and that's exactly the problem. If we would not say within our own cultural group that everyone is exactly the same, we're familiar with it, right? We know we are not the same. I am not the same as every other black woman. You are not the same as every other white man. Like there are differences about us, and yet we are so quick to ascribe similarity to people that are different from us. I Michael Hingson ** 40:26 know I'm a real oddity in things, but having never seen colors, personally, intellectually, I've never understood why people have a problem with race based on color. And I mean, I can really say that about myself, having never seen it and having not grown up. It's a really, I know, a strange feeling, but I know for me, it is strange to to see so many people looking down on people of a different color. I mean, I understand color. I understand the concept of it. Hey, I can talk about it in terms of wavelengths and Angstroms and all that all day long, but it's never been something that I really understand. Why do we even pay attention to it? Danielle Marshall ** 41:11 Yeah, this is about dominance. I mean that. Yeah, that's true. Simple of it, yeah, when you think about race, race is a social construct, there is nothing that divides us. We may physically look different, but genetically, people are people. We are all the same in that way. But when we talk about the social construct of race, a person created this. People created this construct of race to establish dominance of certain groups over others. But here's the thing. So, you know, people will say really quickly to me, if it's socially constructed, why does it matter? And I'm like, it is a social construct that has real world implications, yes. And that is why we must continue to have this conversation about race in this country. Yeah. Michael Hingson ** 42:01 And the operative part of that is have the discussion. There are those who don't want to have any discussion. They want to just ignore it, because they think they're the only ones who are right. Danielle Marshall ** 42:14 That is, unfortunately, an ongoing challenge. And I wouldn't even say that just about race. I think there are some think they're right period. Well, Michael Hingson ** 42:22 I mean, look at, look at different religious organizations. Um, so I'm glad I'm not God, because I'm, I'm with Mark Twain. I wonder if God had been in man because he was disappointed in the monkeys. But I, you know, I It's, it's, it's a challenge, because religiously, so many different religions say, Well, I'm the only one that's really right, yeah. But you know, if you say you believe in God and all that, why do you think that God thinks you're the only one that's right? Show us the proof. Danielle Marshall ** 42:54 Yeah, it's complicated and but it's another example of why people haven't wanted to lean into these discussions for so long, it was not considered polite conversation to talk about politics, religion, money, those types of things, and yet, I would say the lack of having those conversations have led us to some severe consequences today. Yeah, Michael Hingson ** 43:13 and part of it is that we've also forgotten how to really have a good conversation. It doesn't mean that we should take it personally. It doesn't mean that one side is right and the other side is wrong, and that shouldn't be about proving one side right the other side wrong. Should be about understanding. Yeah, Danielle Marshall ** 43:30 you know, I think it's an opportunity to examine one's motives in the moment. Right listeners, I think it is. But for us to individually do it. What am I hoping to get out of this conversation? You know, for some people, they might want to prove a point. For others, they're going to enter the space, you know, desiring to learn. Others are just, you know, they're they're just filling time. Like, what is your motivation in this? And for me, you know, and I've told many people this at this point, especially doing the work that I do in dei they're like, Oh, don't you get tired of having to convince people about, you know, the different merits of diversity, equity and inclusion. And I'm like, Well, I understood a long time ago that diverse, excuse me, that convincing people is not my ministry. Yeah, I am here to walk alongside of people who want to be on this journey, who want to learn, who want to have curiosity towards the world, towards other groups, to self exploration. And so I think just knowing sort of what the purpose is in the conversation, even if I walk into something like my goal is always to just to learn, to listen, to learn something, even if I have something that I have something that I want to contribute and I have a very strong perspective on it, I still would like to understand what the other person's bringing to the table. And Michael Hingson ** 44:47 you might change your perspective when you sit down and dwell on what was discussed Danielle Marshall ** 44:51 absolutely and that that happens every day. Yeah, Michael Hingson ** 44:55 I mentioned I have a master's degree in physics. I also, at the same time, got a secondary. Teaching Credential, and I used, and still use that knowledge of being a teacher every day. I use it in sales, because I learned through lessons, I was able to take in learning to be a good salesperson through the Dale Carnegie sales course that the best salespeople aren't really trying to convince you, oh, that may be their motivation. But what they're really trying to do is to teach you and guide you, and at the same time, deciding, is my product the best product for you or not? And the really good salespeople, if their product isn't the one that's going to work for you, will be honest enough to tell you that? Yeah, Danielle Marshall ** 45:41 absolutely. And as we see with salespeople, there are many different approaches people take. And so, you know, you're if it's not my particular way, there's someone else out there that may offer a different perspective, a different philosophy on these things, and I think that's okay, that we have multiple sort of entry points into this work. I Michael Hingson ** 46:01 love watching other sales people in action. I've learned every time I do. And as you said, it's all about learning. It's my motivation as well. I love being on these podcasts because, as I've told many people, if I'm not learning at least as much as everyone else, I'm not doing my job very well. And it's so fun to be able to have meaningful discussions and learn so much from so many people who come from different perspectives and have their own knowledge bases which are different than mine, and I get to at least be allowed to share in that with them, which is so cool, 46:38 absolutely. Michael Hingson ** 46:41 So one of the things that and I mentioned, live like a guide dog, and live like a guide dog really is motivated as a book to teach people that they can control fear and that that fear doesn't need to blind you, as I put it, or paralyze you or overwhelm you. You know, September 11 happened, and I wasn't afraid. And I wasn't afraid because of the fact that I learned in advance how to deal with emergencies at the World Trade Center, because I moved into the to the complex, and we opened our office in August of 2000 but even before then, while we were setting it up, I knew that there had been a bombing in 1993 and I decided early on, you know, if there's a gonna be another attack on the World Trade Center, I better know all I can about this year place. And so I learned where everything was, but I also spent a lot of time talking to the emergency preparedness people, the fire people, the Port Authority, police and so on, and I learned what to do. And it wasn't until much later that I realized that all that knowledge helped me develop a mindset that said you know what to do in the case of an emergency. So I really advocate very strongly when I get a chance to talk about being safe and emergency preparedness, don't rely on signs. Learn the information so that you really know what to do, which most people you know, don't they, they figure, I'm just going to be able to see the sign, and that works until you can't because you're in a smoke filled room, but, but fear is, is all around us, and we don't really learn to control it. And I think society, all too often, really, in a lot of ways, encourages us to be afraid, way too much. But fear is is something that people just hate to talk about, like in professional growth and so on. How do you deal with that? Danielle Marshall ** 48:30 I definitely appreciate that. You know when I when I think about fear? For me, it can be either a catalyst or an inhibitor, sort of a choose your own adventure concept, because you get to decide how you're going to approach it. But you know, when I think about fear, and I'm going to, you know, back this up to the work that I do around Dei, around cultural, culture in general, I think fear has the potential to raise our self awareness. If I walk into something and I'm I'm fearful, all of a sudden, there's someone who's different from me, right? They're a different religion, they speak a different language, they look different. Why am I experiencing that fear in that moment? Right? So I'm raising my self awareness by being able, again, to introspect on this, to really dig a little bit deeper. So that's that's one piece of it, like it points to the things that can help us then to grow we're the places that we need to focus on, you know? And I'll use just an example again, like a common fear is public speaking. And so is that something that you should really be fearful of, or is it simply a acknowledgement that, hey, I could work on my public speaking skills, right? I could practice in the mirror as a starting point. I could talk to a group of friends, you know, and just have a presentation in my living room. It is pointing us to skills we're not necessarily saying you have to get on a stage and deliver a TED talk as an. Example, right? Like, what are the small steps one can take to start to be able to build up those competencies more and so, like, when I think about fear, I think there's, it's, it's an opportunity to grow. Michael Hingson ** 50:12 I believe that's absolutely correct. Fear is a is a very powerful tool that we can use in so many things that we do in our lives, and that it doesn't need to be the thing that overwhelms us and prevents us from making intelligent decisions. It's a it's a great motivator, it's a great tool, and it's a wonderful gift that if we would embrace it and use it properly, would help us a great deal in all that we do. Yeah, and unfortunately, again, I see in our world, with all the political things going on and so on, so many people are just fomenting and promoting fear. And too many people are buying into it rather than being able to step back from it, because we just haven't ever learned to do that. Yeah, there's Danielle Marshall ** 51:00 a fear economy. There are people who legitimately profit from fear tactics. So whether that be in our politics, whether it be how we're looking at different medicines that, you know, just remember, yes, exactly, we're still there, you know, by now, because it's the last one, you're not going to put that fear in you, or you're not going to be able to make it through life if you don't own one of these things. And so I don't know there's so many things that come to mind as I make that statement, but I Michael Hingson ** 51:31 was watching, I watched some old TV in the morning, and I love to watch the commercials, because at least half of them, they say you got to buy this now, because due to supply chain shortage, this is maybe the last time that you can get it, and the commercial has been going on for a year. So, you know, yeah, exactly. It's interesting. Danielle Marshall ** 51:50 There's one of my favorite department stores that's been having a one day sale every day for as long as I can remember. Yeah, I just kind of think that is ironic. If I should ever come back again into this world, maybe I'm coming back as an advertising psychologist, because I find it quite fascinating. Um, but yeah, fear. Fear, to me, is one of those things that I think that if we are willing to embrace it, if we are willing to be able to think a little bit about what is driving our fear, there's so much potential there, because even in my coaching work, what I see with clients really quickly is like, if you can name the fear, right, give it a name, say exactly what it is, you can start to develop techniques to mitigate that fear, if you will. It goes unnamed. It's really hard to address, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 52:40 because then you're, you don't know what it is you're really dealing with, but if you can think about it, then you can go back and oh, okay, now let's figure out how we deal with that, Danielle Marshall ** 52:49 yeah, or how I get support in dealing with it. Not everything is going to be within our wheelhouse, yeah? And I was, Michael Hingson ** 52:55 I was including it all of one lump sing, one lump sum thing. But you're right. There's nothing wrong. And too many people are afraid of this. There's nothing wrong with looking for support, eliciting support from other people. And all too often, we think that, Oh, I got to do this on my own. I wouldn't be as big a person, especially a macho man, if I have to go off and ask for support, that's funk. Yeah, I love teamwork. I have written all of my books in a teaming relationship, and other people have been involved, and I love that. It's so much fun to do, because I learn other perspectives along the way, and I think it makes for better books. Danielle Marshall ** 53:40 Yeah, I can definitely appreciate that. I mean, so much of my work is centered around including multiple voices and perspectives on things. We cannot be effective in this work if we center it only on a singular voice or a singular group. Yeah, Michael Hingson ** 53:55 you've said that pre one precursor to building confidence is being courageous. Where have you had an example of really being courageous or dealing with fear love? A story. Stories are always fun, Danielle Marshall ** 54:08 you know? I There's so many things that come to mind, like when I, when I hear that question, because it is, you know, and actually, I'm going to go back to high school again. I'll give you, I'll give you two stories here, when I was in high school, I also had that fear of public speaking, right? It terrified me to think that I'd have to get on a, you know, in front of an audience, of whether that would be in front of a classroom or on a stage, etc. And I remember, and this is so interesting, because it's telling of like how I've sort of arrived again to where I am today, but I have this memory of just saying to myself one time, their student government was going to be opening up some positions for the senior class in the upcoming year, and I said, I want to run for my high school treasurer. In order to run for a treasurer, I had to get on a stage. Age, I had to give a speech, I had to talk to the entire student body of our senior class. And I was like, This is the worst idea ever, right? Like, I'm having that moment. I was like, Why did you think this was okay? And I said, you know, I don't know what's going to happen in this moment, but I certainly know this is the one thing I do know about fear. If you do not address it, it is not going anywhere. And so for me, the strategy, even from my high school days, was to lean into things. The issue wasn't that I wasn't able to speak to people, right? I was fine in smaller groups, but it was terrifying to think about getting on a stage and taking, like, a public position on a particular thing. But over the years, I just did a little bit more and a little bit more, you know. So when I started my first job in the in the nonprofit sector, you know, I was a program coordinator, and so I had to train a small team of volunteers on something. And so now I'm taking material that I didn't even create at the time, and I'm making sure I understand them so that I can train these people. And then I went on to, you know, start doing more training at a much larger scale, where I'm I'm traveling around the country, and then it is all of a sudden, oh, I'm standing on stages, and there are 500 people. There are 1000 people in the audience. I'm doing podcasts, and lo and behold, the very thing that I was most fearful of when I was in high school is the thing I've become. I am now a public speaker. Michael Hingson ** 56:29 Yeah, I remember speaking in small groups or selling. You never know where you're going to be selling on any given day, whether it's to a board of a financial organization or to IT people or whatever, and that taught me to be comfortable in groups. But the first time I was asked to speak about September 11 was when I was called by Minister two weeks afterwards. So it was like on Monday the Well, probably the 23rd or maybe it was even a couple of days before then. And he said, we're holding a service for all the people who we lost in New Jersey, and we'd like you to come. And I said, Okay, well, where? And he said, it's going to be an outdoor service. And I said, Great. And then I I asked the question, how many people are going to be there? Probably about 6000 and you know what didn't bother me, of it, I said, Great. So that was my first speech to 6000 people. And you know, it was fun for a lot of reasons. It was, was very enjoyable. You know, I shouldn't say enjoyable, because it was a sense of sad occasion, but I was able to do it, and hopefully inspired some people, and and my wife and I went down and I did it, and it worked out really well, but 6000 people wasn't bad. It's a good start. Danielle Marshall ** 57:58 That is a fantastic start. Welcome. Michael Hingson ** 58:02 So can you tell us a story where you really saw in an organization or some people, just a real transformation, and the success of what you teach about dei and the principles and so on? Danielle Marshall ** 58:18 Sure, you know, I was, I was thinking a little bit about dei and specifically coaching leaders. I I think what is really important when I think about some of the clients that I've served, is is this idea that talk about fear again, right? What stops them from moving forward, in a lot of cases, has been the fear of the unknown, right? These big issues feeling like they have to fix the world. And so where I've seen success with with certain clients in particular, is that they've been able to figure out how the application of Dei, how the application of cultural competencies, can be contextualized for their organization, their mission, the thing that they are most focused on. And so in in that, whether you are an arts based organization or you are, you know, teaching children how to read, how do the principles of racial equity, of cultural norms and values, how do they apply to the realm of work that you're doing, to the staff team that you're having, and so that has been really, I think, important as a starting place is to help people make this a little bit smaller. But one of the things that I would say is that I had a situation where the client had done all of that work and they had been moving into their plan, but there was a senior leader on the team where they had gotten some pretty harsh feedback from the rest of the staff. And you know, this person is not inclusive. They they're full of microaggressions. They're not understanding generational differences, like there so many things came out, um, and I use an assessment that's called the. Intercultural Development Inventory. So it really is to baseline, when you encounter people culturally who are different from you, what are the tools that you most naturally gravitate to in terms of strategies to bridge across that difference? And so they had taken this assessment with me, we had been doing some coaching around it, and then they had a development plan. And in their development plan. They set certain goals. They wanted to understand how to bridge across difference with certain groups that they really were struggling with on their team. So again, whether that be generational, some racial groups, you know, decentering dominant culture, that was a big thing for them in this moment. And so we were able to actually sort of isolate these things and say, Well, what does it mean, you know, if you're if you're having a particular problem, because it's not just learning about culture for the sake of learning about culture, like we want to isolate it down to, how is this understanding going to support something that you're doing? Right? And so they needed to get feedback from the team. They needed to be able to make sure that projects were moving forward in a timely manner. There were a number of things that were happening. And so how do you have to, or excuse me, not, how, but what do you need to understand about these different cultural groups to enable you to do your work more effectively and for them to do their work more effectively? And so what I saw is that this person was really good about learning strategies and then starting to implement them, right? And that made all the difference in the the success of the team, yeah, because they became more open, it's Michael Hingson ** 1:01:30 so great that they were willing to do that, which is, of course, the whole point was that they, they at least were willing to take that step, which leads to other things, yeah. Danielle Marshall ** 1:01:39 And I think that was the the place that they landed on that I think, was most profound for that individual, is that one of the ways that they decentered, sort of the dominant culture, in in their own work, in their own thinking, is dominant culture very much has a and I would say, across the US, this is very true, that there's a there's one right way to do something and and the the joke is, there's never just one right way right that we can go down. And so for this person, by understanding that key concept, it allowed them to hear feedback from the team differently, because it wasn't simply their way of viewing things that they were using as the yardstick anymore. They were trying to gather as much Intel as they could on you know, here's how I would do it, here's how the next person will do it, and so forth. Down the line. What is the best strategy for the particular problem or opportunity we have right now? Isn't that cool, gathering ways Go ahead? Michael Hingson ** 1:02:33 Isn't that cool? Danielle Marshall ** 1:02:34 Extremely and I was so proud of them in this moment, because I'm watching the growth. But not only am I watching the growth in the growth in the individual, I'm watching how the team is now responding to that individual, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 1:02:48 and it's it's all about really communicating. And clearly they figured it out. Yeah, absolutely. Which is great. So what kind of organizations and people do you coach primarily today, primarily Danielle Marshall ** 1:03:02 I am working with nonprofits, and part of that is because I come out of the world of nonprofits. But I also work with small business owners as well, associations, etc. How Michael Hingson ** 1:03:12 did you get involved in nonprofit work in the beginning? Danielle Marshall ** 1:03:16 Well, remember when I told you I was an AmeriCorps member? Well, that airport service was with a nonprofit, and I never left. I stayed with nonprofits for, you know, the rest of my career, until I started my own company. Michael Hingson ** 1:03:28 Do you think that nonprofits, really, when you come down to it, are significantly different than profit making corporations, in some ways, but I'm thinking well more from a from a cultural and the kinds of challenges and so on that they that they face? Danielle Marshall ** 1:03:47 Oh, that, yeah, that's a very nuanced question. I think they are different, and in some ways not so, like when I talk about Dominic culture, that's a theme that's just going to be present every in everything, in every company in this country, because it's, it's our founding, right? It's our foundation of how we see the world here. So that feels very common. What does feel different is, corporate is focused on their bottom line in terms of revenue, yeah? Whereas nonprofits are often interested in, you know, the social change, like they're they're doing some type of good, the impact that they're having in the community that is their focus. But how these things manifest, it's interesting. Like, I see a lot of challenges around dei advancing in corporate because they're focused on capitalism and the bottom line in nonprofits, I see dei having challenges because they have this saviorism complex, and so in either case, you know, pick your poison, but we're still dealing with something that has to be dismantled, disrupted so that we can get to the crux of the work. Yeah. Michael Hingson ** 1:04:50 And ultimately, the same principles apply to both, although we we maybe come at them in a different way, but still, you end up with the same principles. Danielle Marshall ** 1:04:59 Yeah. Right, absolutely. Michael Hingson ** 1:05:01 So what's the name of your company? Danielle Marshall ** 1:05:02 Culture, principles. 1:05:04 There you go. Danielle Marshall ** 1:05:05 We do end up with the Michael Hingson ** 1:05:07 principles. And when did you start it? Danielle Marshall ** 1:05:11 I started my business in early 2020, ah, Michael Hingson ** 1:05:14 so did the pandemic kind of help cause that to happen? It Danielle Marshall ** 1:05:19 most certainly did, you know, much like you know, the rest of the world, the country, etc, there was a disruption in my workflow. I knew I was getting ready to make a transition anyway. I had known that since 19 I just didn't plan to do it as soon as I did. And for me, it became really interesting, because I did a soft launch of my business in April of 2020, so I'm coming up on four years and only to have, in May of 2020, George Floyd be murdered, and to know that I focus on racial equity, I literally was building as my phone was ringing off the hook. And so what a time to come into this space. I had been doing some of this work before in other organizations and as a volunteer, but to be launching my own business at such a critical time in the world, I don't know that I could have cut my teeth in a more interesting moment than I did, but you did it. I absolutely you want to talk about a moment of fear that was fearful Michael Hingson ** 1:06:20 by any standard, for me, I speaking died way down in 2020 because of the pandemic, and then my wife became ill in 2022 and so I couldn't really travel for three years. So I've actually started almost, not quite, but almost from the beginning, rebuilding the business and finding speaking opportunities again. But at least I know what to do, and having a lot of fun doing it, and getting to begin to travel again and really work with people and educate people about dealing with fear September 11 and leadership and trust and teamwork and all that. So it's a lot of fun, but it is we do live in challenging times, challenging times. No doubt about it, absolutely well. So if people want to reach out to you and maybe work with you and get coached and all that, how do they do that? Yeah, Danielle Marshall ** 1:07:13 my favorite way for people to reach out to me is on LinkedIn. You can find me as Danielle Marshall, and then you can also come directly to my website, which is www dot culture, hyphen principles, and that's P, R, I, N, C, i, P, L, E, s.com, Michael Hingson ** 1:07:31 yeah, we don't do the P, a, l, s, exactly. I had a teacher once who's who thought it was really kind of funny, because he would send people to the principal's office, and he made the difference between principal and principal. And it was, it was funny. So culture principles with an S at the end of principles.yes.com, and it's culture dash principles. Well, I want to thank you for being here. We should do another one of these in the future. That would be kind of fun. Danielle Marshall ** 1:08:01 We may just do this. This was this was great to be able to lean into this conversation. So thank you for having me Michael Hingson ** 1:08:06 on. Well, I want to really thank you for coming on. And I am very serious, if there's ever any way I can be of help, you let me know. But I want to thank you all out there for listening to us today, putting up with us for over an hour. We love it, and I'd love to hear your thoughts and get your thoughts. I hope that wherever you're listening, you'll give us a five star rating, and we'd love your review and your your thoughts about today. You can email me at Michael H, i@accessibe.com and accessibe is A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, E, Michael H, i@accessibe.com or go to our podcast page, www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, Michael Hinkson is m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o, n.com/podcast, and again, love those reviews. Appreciate the five star ratings. If you know of anyone else who ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset. And Danielle, same for you. Always looking for more people, really I would appreciate any introductions and recommendations from anyone. It's all about telling stories and helping everybody realize that they can be more unstoppable than they think they can. So that is our story. We're sticking to it. And Danielle, I want to thank you one last time for being here. Danielle Marshall ** 1:09:17 Thank you again, Michael and thank you to all the listeners out there. Really appreciate it. **Michael Hingson ** 1:09:26 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.
