Episode 320 – Unstoppable Starlight CEO and Positive Innovator with Louise Baxter

I have been looking forward to talking with our guest, Louise Baxter, for several months. I met Louise through one of our regular podcast guest finders, accessiBe’s own Sheldon Lewis. Louise has always lived in Sydney Australia although she has done her share of traveling around the world. She attended some college at night although she never did complete a college degree. Don’t let that prejudice you, however. Her life experiences and knowledge rival anyone whether they have a college degree or not.   While attending college Louise worked in clerical positions with some marketing firms. Over time she attained higher positions and began working as a brand or product manager for a number of large well-known companies.   At some point she decided that she wanted to bring a more human-service orientation to her work and left the commercial world to work in not for profit organizations. Part of her work was with the Starlight Foundation in Australia, but she didn’t feel she was challenged as much as she wanted to be. So, in 2007 she left Starlight, but in 2009 the Starlight board convinced her to come back as the CEO of the organization.   Louise has brought an extremely positive thinking kind of management style to her work. Starlight in general has to be quite positive as it works to ease the burden of sick children in hospitals and at home. You will get to hear all about Captain Starlight and all the many ways the foundation Louise directs has such a positive impact on sick children around Australia. The life lessons Louise discusses are relevant in any kind of work. I am certain you will come away from this episode more inspired and hopefully more positive about your own life and job.       About the Guest:   LOUISE BAXTER is Chief Executive Officer, Starlight Children’s Foundation. Louise has significant experience in senior roles in the commercial and NFP sectors and is described as an “inspiring and authentic leader”. In 2009 Louise returned to the NFP sector as Starlight's Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director. Louise’s focus on exceptional experiences and relationships has seen improved metrics across all areas of Starlight. Louise is regularly asked to speak on topics such a positivity, organisational resilience, diversity, and innovation. She is passionate about the creation of organisational purpose and believes this is key to delivering maximum impact through people. She practices positive leadership and has been successful in developing high performing teams within a culture where change is embraced, and innovation is embedded.   Always thinking like a marketer…. Louise’s personal journey and reasons behind the shift from corporate to the For Purpose sector. After more than 20 years in marketing and advertising in roles at ARNOTTS, Accor & Johnson & Johnson & in agencies such as Leo Burnett working on brands from Mortein to Coco pops, Louise’s journey and the insights she brings as CEO are unique. The very first time Louise became aware of Starlight was actually doing a promotion for one of her clients (when she was in sales/marketing) who was partnering with Starlight. Just seeing the work of Starlight, made her feel so pleased that there was now something that changed and reframed the hospitalization and treatment experience for families like a family she knew as a child with a child suffering from leukemia.    The business acumen needed to thrive and succeed in the For Purpose sector. Often the perception is NFP is a step into the slow lane. Far from it. Louise refers to leading Starlight as if it is in ‘eternal start up mode’ and bringing business acumen, finding ways to be efficient and driving growth.     Our business… is the business of brightening lives…. The business growth and success of Starlight since she began from 65 people & 120,000 positive experiences delivered to children, to a team of more than 300 delivering over 1million++ positive Starlight experiences to seriously ill children including more than 13,000 children’s Starlight wishes granted.   Louise has lead Starlight through some of the most challenging times. Her positive impact has seen Starlight grow from strength to strength. Starlight enjoys a tremendously creative and innovative culture. Including ‘Most Innovative Company’ accolade - an achievement which was achieved under Louise’s Leadership.   Starlight Programs growth will be stronger over the next 3 years than it would have been without Covid as programs which Transform and Connect rebuild and programs which Entertain grow. As does fundraising as we layer our face-to-face events back over our digital innovations which have taken off.  We have our creative/innovative culture to thank for this. Stories of personal connections made with Starlight children & families who began their journey more than 20 years ago and flourished thanks to the work of Starlight, including now adults Nathan Cavaleri and Dylan Allcott OAM.   Over the years Louise has been personally involved in many of Starlight’s fundraising campaigns, once literally putting her body on the line as she flew over the handlebars and was carried away from the cycling course injured on Great Adventure Challenge.     Storytelling is at the heart of Starlight’s success, growth & behind the organisations’ ability to connect its stakeholders to its purpose. Louise’s has largely led this approach to drive advocacy, differentiation & brand recognition – now one of Australia’s most recognised children’s charities Passionate about DEI: One of the first things Louise did as CEO was to deliberately approach diversity at Starlight and this continues today. To effectively support the people & families we support, our team members need to reflect this. DEI is addressed at every level.. Inc Board & Exec split to Captains in SER.    Louise considers herself very lucky – her birthday is actually on International Women’s Day: IWD, 8 March. She is an active member of Chief Executive Women, an advocate for female empowerment & equity and in incredible role model.   Ways to connect with Louise:   Starlight Children’s Foundation Australia Website: www.starlight.org.au Louise Baxter’s LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/louisebaxter   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone. Welcome once again to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. It's a fun thing to say I am your host. Mike Hingson, our guest today is the CEO of the starlight foundation in Australia, Louise Baxter, we met Louise through Sheldon Lewis and accessibe, which is always fun. Sheldon is a good supplier of folks, and we can't complain a bit about that. It's a good thing. And so today we're going to learn about Starlight Foundation, and we're going to learn about Louise, and we'll see what else we learned. That's why it's often called the unexpected. Meet anyway, Louise, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here.   Louise Baxter ** 02:04 Thank you, Michael, it's lovely to be here.   Michael Hingson ** 02:08 Well, why don't we start the way I love to start. Why don't you tell us kind of about the early Louise growing up and some of those sorts of things and adventures you got into, or anything that you want to divulge? Okay,   Louise Baxter ** 02:20 alright. Well, I live in Sydney, Australia, and have done my whole life I've traveled a lot, but I've remained here in Sydney. And so life in Sydney was just blissful. And I think what I remember most is just having fun with my friends. It was back in the day where, as a child, you'd leave home on your bike early in the morning, and nobody expected you back till later, often in the afternoon, before dinner, and we had Bush nearby. I can remember catching tadpoles I sailed from the age of eight. My father was a skiff sailor here in Australia and and I had my first time in a Sabo at age eight, we went to the beach a lot, so there was surfing and fun in the sun. I played a lot of sports. So I'm a netball player, which is kind of similar to basketball, but a bit different. I played squash, so a lot of things happening, a very busy life, and I grew up. And I think this is the important thing with parents who were not well off themselves, but were, I mean, we were. We had a lovely life, but they were always raising funds, and our house was a center for raising funds for people who were less fortunate, or that helping out with the local netball club and things like that. So, so I grew up with parents who were very committed to working hard but always giving back, even though they weren't, you know, high net worth people themselves. So I think that's, you know, a great basis for for who I am today.   Michael Hingson ** 04:18 So you went to school and and all those sorts of things like everybody else did. How did your attitude about dealing with people who were probably less fortunate than many and so on really affect what you did in school? Or did you really sort of hone that found that that that spirit later? No,   Louise Baxter ** 04:42 no, I was always involved at school and raising funds. And even, you know, it took us a couple of busses to get to the beach back in the day. So I was in a local youth group, and we made a decision to raise the funds so that we could have one of the fathers, so that we could. Buy a bus, have one of the fathers drive the bus and get us to the beach on Saturday in quick time. So always looking for ways to never taking no or that's hard for an answer, I suppose, always being able to be part of the solution and get things done. So that was happening while I was at school as well.   Michael Hingson ** 05:21 That's kind of cool. So you bought a bus so that everybody could get to the beach. How many people were there that had to get there and use the bus? We   Louise Baxter ** 05:28 had about 40 or 50 people. And during the school holidays, we convinced one of the, a couple of the parents to take us on a trip through far west into, I'm supposing, what into our outback. So we went into kind of desert type lands, and we camped and a shearing a sheep station let us sleep in the shearing sheds overnight. So that was quite an adventure as well. And we did that for one school holidays on that bus.   Michael Hingson ** 06:02 So was the the bus? Well, who owned the bus was it? Was it a school bus, or who owned it   Louise Baxter ** 06:09 the youth group that we, the group did fundraising? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 06:13 cool, yeah. That's pretty unique.   Louise Baxter ** 06:17 I have great memories of that with, you know, green tree frogs in the toilets. Whenever you went to use a bathroom, they were always there looking at you and all of those kind of funny things that you remember, you know, watching and learning farm life and seeing some of the animals sitting on the fence while they were being branded and castrated and all kinds of things, but from as a city kid that was that was really valuable,   Michael Hingson ** 06:47 pretty and unique, but certainly the experience was well worth it, as long as you embraced   Speaker 1 ** 06:53 it. Yes, exactly, yeah. So   Michael Hingson ** 06:57 does that bus still exist today? Or does the youth group still exists now with new youth, that's a very long time ago. Michael, well, I didn't know whether it might have continued with new youth,   Louise Baxter ** 07:07 no. And I, you know, moved locations in Sydney, so I'm not quite sure what's happening there. Now, it'd   Michael Hingson ** 07:14 be exciting if new youth came along and took it over, but yeah, things happen and things evolve.   Louise Baxter ** 07:22 I'm just gonna say their parents probably drive them everywhere now. Yeah, it's   Michael Hingson ** 07:26 gonna say probably the adventure isn't quite the same as it used to be. No   Louise Baxter ** 07:30 exactly,   Michael Hingson ** 07:31 and, and that has its pluses, I suppose, and its minuses, but there, there are also more scary things in one sense in the world now than there used to be. Don't you think,   Louise Baxter ** 07:43 yeah, there are, well, there could be, or maybe, maybe we know more about it now because of our media and communications. So you know, all the kind of predators that impact you as children were around then, I suppose the accidents in cars are up because use of cars has increased. So, yeah, there are. There are different things that impact people nowadays. But us human beings, we're pretty resilient and and we always work out a way through, yeah, well, there's also, there's also a story from my childhood that I think is very relevant for what I do at Starlight, and that story is that you know how you have those family friends, who you grow up with, and you go on holidays with, etc. Well, that family for us, their eldest son was diagnosed with cancer, and back then, survival rates for cancer were very different to what they are today, and much lower. And he died when I was about 12, but as a child, I observed him suffering the pain of the treatment, and there was nothing like Starlight back then. And I saw also the impact that his illness had on his family. And I often think back to him, to those moments now that I'm at Starlight, because Starlight would have changed that situation and made it very different and far more positive for that boy and his family, and I think about about him and what they went through kind of regularly. So it's one of those things that's a childhood. It's a lived experience from my childhood, which, you know still kind of resonates with me today.   Michael Hingson ** 09:44 Well, yeah, and you know, we're, we're constantly evolving. So you can, you can think about that, and you can think about what might have been, but at the same time, the the real issue is, what have you learned? And. How can you now take it forward? And I think, as I said, that's all about embracing the adventure,   Louise Baxter ** 10:04 absolutely, absolutely and so absolutely take that forward,   Michael Hingson ** 10:09 yeah, which is really what you have to do. So you went to college, I assume, yeah.   Louise Baxter ** 10:15 And I actually went part time at night, so I actually went straight into a work environment. And for an organization, and was in the marketing team, just doing basic clerical work, and then I studied part time at night, so did a bit differently.   Michael Hingson ** 10:33 Yeah, well, did you end up eventually getting a degree? No,   Louise Baxter ** 10:37 I have no degree. Which is, which is something that's not, is very unusual in the United States. I know, oh, I don't know   Michael Hingson ** 10:49 that it's that unusual. But the the other side of it is that what you learn and how you put it to use and how you evolve is pretty significant. And that's, of course, part of the issue. Not everyone has a college degree, and sometimes the people with college degrees aren't necessarily the the brightest spots in the constellation either. Absolutely, it's,   Louise Baxter ** 11:13 yeah, there's a lot through lived experience, but I have, yeah, I've studied at various times, and most recently, I was awarded a scholarship. And I've had the experience of doing two short courses at Stanford University in the States, and I'm now on the board of the Stanford Australia Foundation, and so that's been a wonderful experience as a mature age student.   Michael Hingson ** 11:42 That's fair. Yeah, I just recently was inducted into Phi Beta Kappa, which formed the chapter at my university the year I was leaving, so I was able to go to the organizing meeting, but that was it, because then I got my master's degree and left and through circumstances, it was learned that all that happened. So last year, I was called and asked if I wanted to become an alumni member. So I got to be so I finally got to be a member of fraternity. Well, there you go. Congratulations. Well, it's a lot of fun, yeah, and I, and I treasure it and honor it a great deal, and spent a day down at my old university. I haven't really spent a lot of time there since graduating, well, back in 1976 with my master's degree in some business courses. So it's been 48 years. So there you go. Time flies. Well, so what did you do? So you you were working in the marketing world, in a clerical sort of thing, and what did you do from there? I   Louise Baxter ** 12:55 then became an assistant brand manager, a brand manager or product manager, whatever you want to call it, and I worked at Reckitt and Coleman. I worked at Johnson and Johnson and at Arnot snack foods. And Arnot snack foods was interesting because it was a joint venture with Pepsi foods from the US, because they were interested in the biscuit technology from Arnott's, and Arnot was interest interested in their snack food technology. And so what we had was a situation where we were sharing our expertise, and as a result, I was on the team, and we launched Cheetos, Fritos, Doritos into Australia, so they didn't exist here prior to that. Obviously Johnson and Johnson also, you know, big multinational, as is reckoned and Coleman. And then, after a number of years working on client side, I decided I wanted to move to the agency world. And I moved to Leo Burnett advertising agency, where I stayed for a decade. I was on the board there. I managed accounts like the Proctor and Gamble and kill on businesses as well as local businesses like tourism businesses and and wine so hospitality businesses here in Australia, very big wine company and and also the United distillers business back then. So had a lot of experience from both the client and agency side of working on big brands and growing big brands, which I absolutely loved, and we had a lot of fun, you know, along the way, in those days at all of the organizations where I worked, I made a lot of friends, and it's always important to have great friends from those experiences. And then I considered I actually left after i. Left Leah Burnett, I started an agency with two other people that's called Brave New World, which still exists to this day. I haven't been part of that for a long time, and then I had this moment of considering that I could potentially do something more worthwhile with my skills than than selling the products I'd been selling for all those years, and that's when I first made the decision to move to the what I referred to as the profit for purpose sector, and moved to Starlight in a role, and at that time, that was just a six month maternity position role. And I did that because I had great experience of brands from the client and agency side and promotions, so above and below the line. Promotions. I had worked on promotion supporting charity so cause related marketing campaigns. And I felt that the one thing I was missing if I wanted to go back into a corporate, into a corporate social responsibility role. Was that experience of working in a charity, and so I thought at that stage that my, my of journey was going to be back to a corporate because at that time, if you think this is over 20 years ago, triple bottom line was, and the third sector was really becoming important to organizations and to corporates. And so I thought I'd take my skills and go back to a corporate what I did instead was I went to starlight, as I said. It was a six month contract, but after three months, then CEO came out and said, What would it take to keep you here? I loved what I was doing, and I stayed at Starlight. I did stay for six, seven years. I then left and went back to corporate world, and I came back to starlight. So I left at the end of, what am I of? I left at the end of 2007 I came back in 2009 so I had that experience of back in the corporate world, and I came back as a CEO. It's   Michael Hingson ** 17:20 interesting. You started out in, as you said, in clerical work, but you started out in marketing, which, which you liked, what, what caused you to do that? Why marketing? Why marketing and sales, if you will?   Louise Baxter ** 17:33 Well, I love, I love marketing. I love brands, and I love the fact that, you know, brand is a living and breathing thing, and you can grow and change a brand. And I love, I love all the learnings around consumer insights. That was my specialty within marketing. So actually understanding that consumer behavior, and what I say about marketing is it's, it's hardly rocket science, because if you look at a young child, they recognize that they speak differently and use different language and words, etc, when they're speaking to their friends, when they're speaking to their grandparents, when they're speaking to their teachers, when they're speaking to their siblings, and so already, the concept of I have a different consumer in front of me, and I need to change my language and what I'm saying and my communication skills. Need to tweak. A child understands that from a very early age. So when I think about marketing, that's what you're doing the whole time. You're changing what you're the what you're saying and the way you say it, so that you engage more strongly with your consumer, and that's what I love about it, because communication is just so powerful, and you can take people on a journey. I'm also you know you can change behavior before you change the attitude, but ultimately you can move people and kind of change their thinking and their their their habits.   Michael Hingson ** 19:11 What's a really good example that you participated in of that I love a marketing story, loving sales and marketing as I do, I'd love to hear a good marketing story. Um,   Louise Baxter ** 19:22 well, there's, there's, there's quite a few. And I'll, I'll give you one. There was, I used to work on all the roads and traffic authority business, and at that stage, we were responsible for handling all the campaigns, from speeding to seat belts to drink driving, etc. And what was really powerful about those was your results were that every day you came into work and the road toll was there, and the road toll was, you know, up or down. And to work on campaigns which, over years, reduced the road toll because of the messages that you would keep. Communicate to people about speeding, etc. So whether people believed that they should be going, if you know, 10 kilometers slower in that particular zone or not, the messages of you know of penalties being caught, whatever the messaging you used to slow them down in that moment worked, and that saved lives. So, you know, that's, that's an example. I also worked on brands such as Special K, you know, and and for me, seeing, we created a fantastic campaign here that ran for about 20 years, and it was based on the the traditional Special K ads where women would wear clothes that they had years ago. And this one was about a mini skirt, but it was done in such a way that the woman was Stuart was the strength in the TV commercial. She was the lead. And that grew the business, and grew Special K at that time, at like, three times the market average for any, you know, product growth. So to see those things, and what I love is the results. And you you get it very strongly in those moments and and it's exciting.   Michael Hingson ** 21:17 You mentioned having been involved with working with Fritos and so on, which strikes a nerve when I lived in New Jersey, somewhere along the way, ranch flavored Fritos came into existence, but they didn't last very long, and I miss ranch flavored Fritos   Louise Baxter ** 21:34 we used to do when I worked on those snack food brands. We did so much testing and to to create tastes that are suitable, because tastes do change significantly, you know, region to region, and so ensuring that we had exactly the right flavors that would resonate and and sell here was really important to us. But along the way, we had some shockers, and we did have a lot of the specialist from FRITO lay in the states out working with us to craft those flavors. So we eventually got ones that worked here and for this region.   Michael Hingson ** 22:13 Yeah, and I'm sure that that must be what what happened that ranch flavored Fritos just didn't sell enough. In   Louise Baxter ** 22:20 cell Michael, you didn't have enough friends,   Michael Hingson ** 22:23 I guess not. Well, we didn't know enough people in New Jersey. What can I say? But, but we contributed as much as we could. My wife and I both loved them, and we we bought ranch flavored Fritos every chance we got. But unfortunately, that really probably wasn't enough to keep it going. So we, we mourn the loss of ranch flavored Fritos. But you, you did that, and it's interesting, because if I were to bake this observation, in a sense, although part of your job has changed, part of your job hasn't changed, because it's still all about marketing and educating people. Of course, now you're on the not for profit side, but that's okay, but what you're doing is teaching and educating, and now you're doing it for more of a social cause than a profit cause.   Louise Baxter ** 23:21 You're exactly right what we're doing every day because is, we're marketing our organization, and it's all about communication, and that communication might be very different with, you know, high net donors to community groups who support us in terms of how they connect with us. The impact stories are the same, although you also learn that certain individuals might prefer programs that support children, or might support prefer programs supporting older people, older children, or might support programs that support our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children. And so you learn that through all your discussions. So it's all about hearing, because marketing is about really listening and and so I am still, you know, everything we do is about really listening and really hearing from the kids and the young people we support. You know, we need to listen to their situation and what, from our program's perspective, is working for them. So I feel it's very, very similar to what I did, because I was a product manager, so I was always listening to our customers to create more relevant products, and then communicating to people so that they we could sell those products. And the difference here is, back then they were the same people, so you would listen to your customers, then you'd be selling to them. And now what happens is our customers are the children and young people who are seriously ill and hospitalized, and our customers, the people where we're getting the funding from, are the donors who. Support those programs. So you break it into different groups, and we have far more stakeholder groups that you're managing in the profit for purpose sector than you do in the for profit sector. But that keeps it   Michael Hingson ** 25:14 interesting Well, so what is in in what you're doing today? And I'd be interested to to hear a contrast. But what does what does success mean to you today, and what did success mean to you when you were in the marketing world?   Louise Baxter ** 25:30 I think that that's always, you know, being the best you can be, and achieving the the metrics you need to achieve. So that's not changed, and always having really positive relationships with, you know, and partnerships. So for me, none of that's really changed. And I think that, you know, authenticity is very, very important. And so I constantly say, you know, with me, what you see, what you get, I'm the same person, no matter if you're a friend, a colleague at work, whatever, and I think that makes life much easier than if you were different people in different spaces. So I think there's a there's something that's very consistent about that. And I, I am that kind of person who doesn't take no for an answer. It's just okay. That's that's a bit trickier, but how can we get that done? So I'm always, always been solution focused, and I think that's been that's really important. And I think, you know, Obama has made comments about the type of people he wants to employ, people who get stuff done, and that's that's exactly me, and who I look to work with. So none of that has changed, but for me, it's now incredibly important. We're changing lives every day, and I think that what Starlight does in this country is we believe that that happiness in childhood matters, because happiness in your childhood is the strongest determinant of how you perform in your education, your employment, and with long term healthy life behaviors, children who are seriously ill have their ability to be happy significantly impacted. And so what we do is we sort support them with a whole range of programs. And I can talk about our theory of impact, but it builds their well being and resilience. And I know that that that you talk a lot about, you know about fear, and I think resilience is that thing that that gives you the strength to move through those things that may be frightening to you at some stage, and kids who are seriously ill are going through so much that is unfamiliar and frightening to them and painful. And so Starlight has been creating programs which are all about positive psychology and built on the tenants, if we can build, if we can distract a child by something that's positive help them to look forward to something positive. On the other side of treatment, it changes their engagement with their health care, and it changes their health outcomes for a positive and so that's incredibly important, and we were using this a decade before Martin Seligman even coined the phrase positive psychology and and now as as clinicians recognize, and they've recognized this for a long time, but are increasingly recognized the ways this this can be used to create improved health outcomes. And let's face it, you know, healthcare is one of the most innovative, fast moving sectors you can possibly work in, and clinicians have changed and improved health outcomes for every illness and disease you can possibly think of, and that's amazing. And so Starlight has been part of that improvement in healthcare, but the recognition that your mental health and well being is completely connected to your physical health and well being. And so while the doctors and nurses the clinicians look after the physical Starlight is engaging with the child within the illness and helping to lift their spirits, support their well being, resilience, giving back that joy of childhood. Because, you know, a clinician once said to me, Louise, in treating their illness, we steal their childhood. And so what we're about at Starlight is giving those kids back their chance to simply be a child and have that fun of childhood, which is where we started this conversation. You know, childhood should be about fun and having no inhibitions and not worrying, not a care in the world. And children who are seriously ill live in a very kind of adult world where they're dealing with concepts such as life and death. And that's not where any child should really be.   Michael Hingson ** 30:05 So when you're when you're dealing with a child, what, what? What do you do to bring the child back to the child, if you will, as opposed to all the the challenges that they're going through? Because certainly, when you're dealing with a disease like a cancer or whatever, it is, a very tough thing. So how do you bring that child back to being able to be a child at least for part of the time?   Louise Baxter ** 30:32 And that's, that's, you're absolutely right. It's about moments, because, and we talk about moments which matter. You can't do it for 100% of the time, but if you can lift that child and distract them and take them away from that, even if just for a moment, it changes everything. And I, I we have a whole range of programs that cater for this, in hospital and also in community. And last year, we created nearly 2 million so it was 1.9 million positive Starlight experiences for children. And that's the way we talk about it, because they're all so different. But we work in three general areas, and that is, we transform, we work in partnership with the clinicians to transform the healthcare experience, and we even build physical spaces in the hospitals, all the children's hospitals in Australia, which are manned by a character called Captain starlight. So we employ nearly 200 Captain starlights, who are all professional performers, and they work with the children, and they engage. They don't perform, but they use performance skills to engage with the child and the child's imagination, because a couple of things about children is that they are in they have incredible imaginations, and they are also easily distracted. And one of the things about most parents is they they try to work out how they keep their child focused? Well, we use the fact that children can be intensely distracted for good. So, you know, for example. So talking about that transforming the healthcare experience, some of our captain starlets will actually work in a treatment space with the clinicians, and they know how the treatment is going to unfold. Not so they could ever perform the treatment, but be so they know when to distract the child, when to keep the child very calm, etc, throughout that procedure. But let's say it's a burns dressing change that to a child. The pain of having a burns dressing change is like having your skin removed every time the dressing has changed, and what we do is we have our captain starlights there, and children don't have the psychology of pain in their mind. They will be intensely distracted, and their pain threshold then increases by up to 75% by simply distracting them, which means then they don't need to have an anesthetic for their treatment, which means that that child may not have to stay in hospital overnight because of that anesthetic and etc. So by using the power of a child's mind engaging with them, we can change that scenario. They won't feel the pain. Now, for an adult, that sounds weird, because if we were having that burn stressing changed on an arm, even if someone was distracting him, we'd be waiting for the pain, whereas a child just gets absorbed in the distraction and is not waiting for the pain. And so that's the difference. So we transform the healthcare experience, we provide opportunities for children to connect, because social isolation is one of the key issues associated with serious illness and treatment. They're pulled away immediately from their local friends and family, often into, you know, a hospital that's in the city, and that's the way our healthcare system works. The big children's hospitals are in the cities. The kids come out of regional areas and into that so they're away from everything, all their friends that their bedroom, everything that's familiar, and so that social connection is really important. That's part of what we do in our Starlight Express rooms, which are in every Children's Hospital. They also are TV stations within those hospitals and broadcast to the bedside of the child. So if the child's too sick to come into the Starlight Express room, they can be part of that and have that social connection from their bedside. So quizzes, for example, are really important for us, and we run a quiz every day, and sick children have lost that ability to compete in so many ways and have fun and have that little banter that you have with people when you are competing. Yet a quiz brings that all together. And we often have, we always have prizes, but it means a child in their bed who can't physically come into another space with another child for issues in terms of their illness and and. Um and infections and cross infections, etc, they can still be involved, and they can win the quiz, and, you know, be on television and chat with the other kids. So those things are very important. And we also promote entertainment, because entertainment is a great way of of distracting children. And so we talk about what we do. We transform the healthcare experience. We provide social connection that's so missing, and moments of entertainment. And our program sometimes deliver all three, but they're created for one specific reason, and so we're all about having fun. And for me, when I see a child come into a Starlight Express room, especially a child who's recently been diagnosed, you can see they're often in a wheelchair. They're holding an IV drip. They have their head down, their shoulders down, they have the weight of the world on their shoulders. They're looking like no child should ever look and you see this child come into our space and start to lift because a Starline Express room is a haven away from the clinical nature of the ward. They start to lift. They see the space. They see the captain starlights, and for me to observe that same child, 510, 15 minutes later, roaring with laughter, completely forgetting where they are and why. That's the power of starlight, and that's what we do through all our programs every day. And that moment lifts that child and gives them, builds their resilience and gives them the ability to go back into that next round of treatment, surgery, etc. So it is in that moment, and it changes everything.   Michael Hingson ** 36:40 How does the starlight experience differ in America and our healthcare model here as opposed to in Australia? Do you have any idea?   Louise Baxter ** 36:52 Yeah, well, we have, we man all of the spaces in our hospitals. So the hospital, when a new hospital is being built, they they they allocate a section that is the Starlight Express room space. We then build the Starlight Express room, and these are quite large spaces, and then we man it with our own paid team members and volunteers that would never happen in your healthcare system, just with legal issues and liability, etc, you'd never see that happening in in America. So that's, I think, the key, the key difference from things that we do in Australia, we also are a wish granting organization, and we are the largest wish branding organization in Australia, and we have programs called we have a program called Live Wire, which supports young people, so teenagers and up to the age of 20, and that is in hospital. So we then don't have Captain starlights. We have live wire facilitators, and then we have live wire online. We also have a virtual Star LED Express room, which we created and trial during COVID. Because obviously everything around the world and definitely in Australia, was in lockdown, and our programs were an essential service in the children's hospital, but we were restricted, and so we'd been toying with the concept of a virtual Starlight Express room for a long time, and so we used COVID as that opportunity to trial that, and we trialed it. It was very successful, and we're now rolling planet Starlight into every hospital across Australia. All people need there is a QR code. And so we put up beautiful posters, which are also games that kids can play that has a QR code, and they can go directly to Planet starlight. And planet Starlight is set up has live shows of Captain starlights during the day, but also games kids can play directions, how to do art. So if a child's seriously ill, but at home or in another hospital, they can do all of this stuff. And it's it's not that you need a full tank kit. We do it and understanding that children will be able to work with what they have that's near to them. We even have things like I spy for an emergency room space so that kids can stay distracted, no matter what part of a hospital they're in. We also now support families who are in at home palliative care, because 70% of children in this country who are in palliative care are at home. That's not necessarily end of life palliative care, but palliative care can go on for a number of years, and those families are incredibly alone and isolated, and so our Starlight moments program delivers things to uplift that family and have them know that someone's thinking of them during this time. And. Again, it is those moments which really, truly matter.   Michael Hingson ** 40:05 So, um, how did what? What do you know about how it works here, or what actually happens in America? Do you have any real notion about that? I mean, I understand all the legalities and all that, but how does it differ what? What do they do here to be able to foster that same kind of climate. Yeah,   Louise Baxter ** 40:22 they're still about happiness matters, right? Which is fantastic, and they do that with, I'm trying to think of the name now Fun, fun boxes that they have delivered into hospitals with toys, etc, for kids. In some hospitals, they are able to do a refresh of a playroom to make it a starlight space. But it's then not like ours are manned every day with team members. They have little carts that help kids transport round the hospital. So yeah. So they have a whole range of things that they can do within the limitations of the different health system. It   Michael Hingson ** 41:06 must be a real challenge to keep up the spirits of all the people who work for starlight. How do you keep a positive work environment and keep everyone moving forward and hopefully reasonably happy in what they're doing, because they they have to see a lot of challenges. Obviously, yeah,   Louise Baxter ** 41:26 we we're authentic with our commitment to positive psychology. And so getting close to 15 years ago, we started working with a group here in Australia called the positivity Institute, and we started training all of our team members. So every team member who joined Starline is trained in the tools of positive psychology, because you're absolutely right. And I use the airplane analogy, you know, if the plane's going down, you're always told that you put your you have to put your oxygen mask on yourself, because if you don't put it on yourself, you're of no use to anyone else, and POS, psychs like that, you have to care for yourself. And self care is so important, because if you are not caring for yourself, and if you are not topping topping up your own cup, then you're of no use to support and coach and help other people, and so we have positive psychology is the one authentic thing that, just you know, moves right through our organization. It's at the heart of everything we do for the children and young people. And importantly, every question we ask ourselves about every business decision is, will this improve the way we support the seriously ill children and young people, yes or no, and then what we do is we carry that through, because for us to be able to provide the support we do, and you're absolutely right, working often in very challenging situations, we need to know how we can look After ourselves. So POS site flows through the whole organization, and we are an organization that is a great place to work in Australia, there's actually, you know, a survey that's done annually, and corporates and other organizations are ranked, and we're always in the top group of performers there. So it's, it's also very critical to maintain a high performing team, because we need to be sure of able to have our team bring their best self to Starlight every day. And that's what post psych does for us. How does   Michael Hingson ** 43:37 that work? What? What do you do? I mean, you, you obviously have people who go into situations and they get hit with so many sad sorts of things, but obviously you're able to bring them out of that. How do you do that? Well,   Louise Baxter ** 43:52 as I said, Everybody's trained up front and recognizes the tools or has the toolkit for prossite, but we don't just leave it there. So the people who are working in hospitals have daily debriefs. They have a support crew from an employee assistance organizations who work with them. That's the same person who works with those teams. So they then have weekly debriefs, monthly, quarterly. So we're onto it. It's, it's, it's a, May, it's a, it's a, it's very strategic in the way we support them, and it's very considered. And so that support is there for people on a daily basis. So   Michael Hingson ** 44:35 you, you, I'm just thinking of a question I'm going to ask, you're doing a lot with children and all that, which I think is really great. Is there any chance that this kind of approach could also work for older people, adults and so on?   Louise Baxter ** 44:57 Absolutely, and it. It would also work. I mean, we're working with seriously ill, right, and hospitalized children, but it would also work with group, other groups of vulnerable children. So, you know, happiness and positive psychology is something that works for everyone, quite frankly. And so one of the things that's a side benefit of starlight being in a hospital is it lifts the morale of the whole hospital team. So the hospital, the hospital team, is happier. Because if you think of working in a children's hospital, if Starlight was not there, it can be a pretty dour place, and the challenges are every day, but with starlight, they're lifting the spirits, having fun, being silly. It changes everything for the clinicians I know, I've been at the door of a lift, an elevator, as you would say, and and before the lift, the doors open. A doctor who's been waiting there, notices that two captains walk up to hop in the elevator and and the doctor will say, I'm taking the stairs. I never know what those guys make me do between floors, but laughing. So you know, our captain starlights are about that fun. And the thing about Captain Starlight is they come from Planet starlight. So there's a mythology around them, and they fly to planet earth every day in an invisible rocket ship that lands on the roof of the Children's Hospital. And the great thing about this is that the children are then in the gun seat in because they understand everything about Planet Earth, and the captains don't. So the planet the captains will do silly things like pick up a pen and use it like a telephone and go, Hello, you know. And the children will go, No, not that. So it's that merge of slapstick and kind of vaudeville and the child engaging with the child. But they will, can they? Our captain? Starlets will do that silliness with doctors and nurses too, which is also hilarious. And that's the comment from the captain from the doctor. So Right? It keeps the morale of the entire hospital, because, you know, it changes from having children who are crying and distressed and frightened to children who are roaring with laughter, um, despite the fact that they're seriously ill, that's great.   Michael Hingson ** 47:25 How can we bring that to adult patients?   Louise Baxter ** 47:29 Well, do you know what I've been working or I've been walking with our captain starlights as they've had to move through an adult part. You know, some of our hospitals are adults and children's and then the youth are on the other side. As we've walked through, an elderly person stopped and said, Hey, captain, could you sing me a song? And so they had their ukulele there, and they launched into, you are my son. I think he might have requested, You are my sunshine. And you can see immediately the change in the person. So it, it is something that definitely works, but at the moment, we don't have the funding to meet all of the need that we have for children and young people. So while it's, you know, potentially a great concept, it's, it's not something that we can move into in the the immediate future. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 48:24 and you can only do what you can do, but it would certainly, it would seem to me be exciting if people would bring more of those programs to adults too, because adults could could use it. And I'm sure you know that I'm not saying anything magical at all, but I would think there are ways to bring a lot of this to adults that would help lift their spirits. I know when my wife was in the hospital, it was very boring for her. Now she was in a wheelchair, so she was in a chair her whole life. So she had other challenges being in the hospital when she needed to use a restroom or have help with a bedpan, sometimes it took a while and so on. So just a lot of things that could have been better for her, that I think would have made her experience better. And I realized that she was probably, in a sense, a harder case than some, but still, it would just be so nice if we could do more to help all of the different kinds of patients in hospitals and make it a better experience for them.   Louise Baxter ** 49:23 Yeah, that's that's what we're doing about, about changing that healthcare experience,   Michael Hingson ** 49:29 yeah. What about the whole concept of diversity, equity and inclusion and so on? How do you deal with a diverse population? So for example, in all the things that you're talking about, what if you discover that one of the children that you're dealing with is blind in the hospital? How do you adapt so that they get as included as other people in the things that you're doing? Yep,   Louise Baxter ** 49:53 we have. All of our team are trained in dealing with. Children who are blind, who are deaf. We actually recently had training, and we had our captain starlights. They were all blindfolded, and they were going through sensory experiments to teach them how they can better use sound and other things to work with children. So So our team is trained across all of those different areas, because you're right every day, we do deal with children who are deaf, who are blind, who are in wheelchairs, who are non verbal, who are on the autism spectrum, but all of those things. So we have to have teams trained. Our team is trained to understand how they can deliver an exceptional experience to those children, as well as children who don't have those differences. So   Michael Hingson ** 50:56 clearly you have a we got to get it done. Got a really positive attitude to get things done. Where did you learn that attitude? Because that's a very positive thing that I think more companies and more people in general ought to learn. The whole concept of, we're going to get it done no matter what it you know, I don't want to say no matter what it takes, but we're going to get it done, and we're very positive about that. Yeah,   Louise Baxter ** 51:25 I'm not sure that I learned it, but I think that there are people in life who you see that way. I always, I always jokingly call it waiters with their heads up, because, you know, you see when you're in a restaurant often, there's those people who walk past your table and don't pick up the dirty plates, who aren't looking for things to do. And then there are those other ones who you can see are going from table to table, doing stuff everywhere. And I always say they're the people I want to employ, the waiters with their heads up. So I think it's an attitude you have in life. And you can either kind of say, well, that's a challenge, and that's difficult, but how can I get that done? Or you can say, well, that's difficult. I just won't do that anymore. And and, you know, we need people who want to get stuff done and who always have a pot and having a positive attitude just makes you feel so much better than dwelling in the negative. And you know, I hate people who are always who those negative Nellies or nets or whoever they are, and they bring you down. So positivity is something that I think helps all of us every day. And why wouldn't you choose to be positive? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 52:37 and it is a choice. And the reality is that no matter what goes on, I think we can choose to be positive. One of the things that I've been saying for many years, that I learned because of the World Trade Center, basically, is don't worry about what you can control. Focus on what you can let the rest take care of itself. We're so worried about every little old thing in the world that we don't tend to be positive about anything, and that doesn't help any of us. No,   Louise Baxter ** 53:07 I think that being positive is so incredibly important. It makes you feel better and happier, makes everybody around you feel better and happier. So why wouldn't you do it? And I actually use this at Starlight too, because sometimes team members like you reach a point in your in your work life, and I did. I left Starlight because I needed a new challenge, and Starlight didn't have that challenge for me. So why hang around and become that disgruntled person in the corner who's just trying to pull everybody else into their negative little corner and finds fault with everything the organization does. Why would you stay? You know, and if you leave in that instance, you go to somewhere where you can contribute, and you feel great. You're doing a great job. The organization gets someone into your role who really wants to be there, and all that negativity stops. So in positive psychology, the end game is flourishing. And so I jokingly say at my team all the time, if you don't want to be here anymore, if you're not feeling challenged, please go flourish somewhere else. Don't stay here and become that negative person who tries to bring everyone into their negative corner. It's just not good for you or anybody else. So, yeah. So, so the Go flourish somewhere else is a bit of a joke that people say they're going to have printed on my coffee mug at some stage.   Michael Hingson ** 54:30 Well, you went away, but you also came back. That's   Louise Baxter ** 54:34 right, that's right. And so I went away because I needed a new challenge at that stage. And that challenge, potentially, was the CEO role that it wasn't available then. So I went and I did something else that I loved. And then, you know, the board came back to me some time later and said, Would you come back as CEO now? And I said, Yes. So there you go. And then I'd had a different experience, which actually helped. Me to be a better CEO. So as you say, if you're always moving forward, if you don't get hung up about things, and if you choose positivity, that really can set you up for a much better life. What   Michael Hingson ** 55:13 are some of the challenges that Starlight is facing in Australia today?   Louise Baxter ** 55:19 I think that for us it's a nice challenge, because as clinicians recognize the power of positive psychology and the power of the mind in improving health outcomes, they're very creative, and they're coming up with more and more ideas as to how star lack could be used, but we can only deliver if we increase our funding. And obviously, I think globally, communities are under pressure financially, and so those things kind of don't work together. And that's that's a challenge for us. I think we live in a world of increasing complexity and compliance and and we need to within that, ensure we meet the requirements and the criteria, but we do it in the simplest possible way, because simplicity is better for your mental health. It's more effective and efficient. And so sometimes within the the complexity of compliance, people are on making things even more bureaucratic than they need to. So really keeping things simple, I think, is is important against the backdrop of what's happening. And the exciting thing is we work in the sector of health care. And health care is always changing, always improving and and that's a great thing to be part of. What   Michael Hingson ** 56:48 do you think are well, what would you tell somebody from, let's say, one of your former jobs in marketing and so on, what kind of advice would you give them based on what you now know as being the CEO of starlight, for, my gosh, what? For 15 years, 14 almost? Well, 15 years, yes, almost 16 years. Yeah,   Louise Baxter ** 57:10 I think that. I think people have to be true to themselves. You know, you have to be authentic. Choose positivity is something that I would always give advice around, because, as you said, it is a choice, and I fail to understand why everyone, anyone would choose the negative, yeah, side of that equation and really focus on getting stuff done. So never sit back and be lazy. Always be working to be that, that person who thinks about themselves others and cares and gets it done,   Michael Hingson ** 57:55 yeah, we we spend way too much time, because I think we're taught so much to be negative when we don't get taught nearly as much about being as positive as we can be. I know that my parents were always encouraging to me and my brother. I'm not sure my brother always got it quite as much as I did in terms of understanding it, but we were, we were taught that positivity was a choice. We were taught that being innovative and moving forward was a choice. And we also were encouraged to make that the choice that we made too, which is part of the issue, yeah,   Louise Baxter ** 58:37 excellent. And the other thing is, I would say, Do not be a perfectionist. I'm an anti perfectionist. Yeah, I agree. It gets you nowhere. Doesn't exist. And you know, especially in this day, where we can move, and we're very agile, kind of, I say 70% out, because if you say 70% and out, it means people will probably go to 80 or 90% but those people who, if anyone in a in an interview, proudly tells me they're perfectionist, they're gone because all they do is drive themselves and everyone around them crazy. So I don't want to have them in the organization. It   Michael Hingson ** 59:17 seems to me that the thing to say is that I will always do the best that I can do, and I will always give at least 100%   Louise Baxter ** 59:25 Absolutely.   Michael Hingson ** 59:28 Yeah, perfection is something I don't think most of us understand anyway, but if we give it our best, probably we'll achieve perfection, in a sense,   Louise Baxter ** 59:37 yeah, and get it done and get it out, get it happening, right? Because the thing is, if it's not, if it's, you know, if it's not, if it's not perfect, you get it out and you get to use it, and you learn so much more. So you got actually a better shot at getting it towards it. You can tweak it after,   Michael Hingson ** 59:55 yeah, well, well, market, well. And what you do. Do is you do the best that you can do, but you're if you're wise and good leaders. Know this. You also work with a team, and sometimes somebody else on the team can take the lead and enhance what you're doing, which is always a good thing.   Louise Baxter ** 1:00:15 Absolutely, you've got to have way smarter people all around you? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:22 I don't think there's anything wrong with having smarter people around you. Your your smarts is in bringing the team together.   Louise Baxter ** 1:00:29 Yes, that's right. So   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:33 what can you think other regions and countries learn from the challenges that you're facing?   Louise Baxter ** 1:00:40 I think we have, I think the world is so consistent in this day and age more than it's kind of ever been. You know, when you travel, you know, you seek out those places where we're different. Of course, we're different, but there's a lot more that's the same in this day and age than there ever has been and, and, you know, in some instances, I think that's quite sad, yeah, but there's much more consistency. So I think that there's, and there's always something that we can learn from each other, always. And that's what I look for. I'm excited by up learning things and you know, and and something that doesn't go according to plan is fabulous, because you learn so much more from that than something that just smoothly goes along and does everything you thought it would do.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:35 Nothing wrong with learning from things that don't go well. I don't like the term failure and even mistakes, I'm not a great fan of but I think that what happens is that things don't always go as we plan. And the real question is, what do we learn from it? Absolutely which is, which is so cool? Well, Louise, this has been absolutely fun to be able to spend all this time with you. Now it's 10 in the morning where you are, so we should let you go do other things and get something done today. But I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you who are listening for being a part of our podcast today. I'd love to hear your thoughts about what Louise had to say, and I hope that you will communicate with her. And that's a good point. Louise, how can people reach out to you if they'd like to talk with you and maybe learn more from you, and what you have to say, I'm   Louise Baxter ** 1:02:27 on LinkedIn. So if, if those listening are on LinkedIn, you can find me. Louise Baxter, Starlight, Children's Foundation, Australia and or you can go to starlight.org.au, we if you're looking for us, our website, and you'll find me through that as well. Cool.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:47 Well, I hope people will reach out. And if you'd like to reach out to me, and I hope you will, you may email me at Michael, H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com, and you can also, of course, go to our podcast page, w, w, w, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael hingson is spelled M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o, n.com/podcast, you can listen to all of our podcasts there. You can reach out to me. There lots of things you can do on the web. It's an amazing thing to be able to do things on the web. I also would really appreciate it if when you are thinking about us, if you'll give us a five star rating wherever you're listening to us or watching us, we really appreciate your ratings and your comments. So please do that. If you know of anyone who you think might be a good guest, and Louise, you as well. If you can think of anybody else who we ought to have on unstoppable mindset, would definitely appreciate you introducing us. We're always looking to have more people to come on and tell their stories and talk about what they do. That's the best way to learn, is learning by listening to other people and them telling their stories. So hopefully you'll all do that and again, Louise, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun, so thank you.   Louise Baxter ** 1:04:07 Thanks so much, Michael. Have a wonderful evening.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:14 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.