Ep.30- Hope For Healing

I know you, you are afraid to speak up, you are scared of what other people think of you. And you blame yourself for what happened to you. I know how it feels. Because I've been there. If you found me, I'm so grateful you're here. This podcast will give you hope. And now I'm your host, Anna ditchburn. I'm going to hold your hand and provide the guidance that I needed the most. It's time for you to find your why. And turn your experience into your superpower. So lock your door, put your headphones in, and enjoy. Teri Wellbrock. Welcome to the world's best Trauma Recovery podcast.

Oh my gosh, Anna, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here to have a great conversation about trauma and recovery and healing and hope today.

It's gonna be an amazing conversation. Yeah. Terry, and you are a psychologist, you're a writer. And you are an amazing host of the healing place podcast, and the founder of the semis bundle of Hope Project.

I'm wondering, what is this? The Sammie’s Bundles of Hope project is about?

Yeah, well, first to clarify, I'm not a licensed psychologist, I have a degree in psychology, but I just don't want anyone to reach out and be like, Hey, what's your input as a psychologist, so just to clarify that. And CMEs funnels of Hope was a project I started, we have therapy dogs, Sammy, who is a Labradoodle, and the sweetest sweetest soul I've ever met. And my daughter, who is now a teenager, but at the time, she was, I don't know, nine or 10 years old. And she and some of her friends were saying, I wish we could do something to help little kids who are going through trauma or hurting. And I just thought it was such a, they're just such sweet kids. And I thought, let's do something with CME related. And so we came up with the idea to collect bags, and we had people donate little pull string bags, and all different kinds of bags. And then we started reaching out to folks like therapists and trauma, people who work in the trauma recovery arena. And they donated big boxes of stress balls or bubbles, or journals and markers. And so we all of a sudden had this collection coming in of things to put in these bags to help kids who might be going through maybe some bullying, maybe they've had a death in their family. And they're experiencing some grief, some sort of trauma or some sort of adverse childhood experience. So Sammy Spinoza hope, yes, we started visiting the homeless shelters that housed children. So families that were there, and we also started visiting, oh my gosh, I'm so drawn to blank where women can go safe houses that safe houses where women can go if they've left an abusive home and environment and brought their children with them. And so we started visiting those places, bringing Sammy with us as a therapy dog because she and I are a therapy dog team, and then delivering these bags to kids. And we wrote a little book when my daughter was nine, she and I called the doodle with the noodle. And it's about to see me and it was written for preschoolers. So it's very simplistic, but it's about loss and in how to overcome losing something that you treasure and love. And we started putting a signed copy, we put a little paw print of CMEs in each of these books, like she signed the book as the author. And we put those in the bags. And so it was just a way for us to help kids because I've certainly been that kid who's been going through horror. And just to offer them something that maybe they can have a stress ball to squeeze or maybe just some bubbles, just something to help them stay in the now and just keep their bodies calm. And that's our our little project.

You do such an amazing job. And it really sounds like a whole bundle of hope and joy and happiness theory. What improvement Have you noticed in those kids behavior?

Oh, well, I tell you what, if I can just talk about just Sammys presence. I've noticed such incredible shifts in children. We were at a school working through the counselor's office at an elementary school. Oh, and I think this little guy must have been about fourth grade. And they came in and we see me with do 15 minute intervals with these kiddos, working through the counselors. And one of the counselors came in and said, Would it be okay if Sammy met with this little guy, this little fourth grader that's not unscheduled today. And, of course, absolutely bring them in. And I could tell he had tear stains down his face where he had just been crying all morning. And this was very early when school started maybe around nine. And he sat on a beanbag chair, and Sammy was instantaneously on him. Here's this big Labradoodle as big as this fourth grader and she just she just snuggled right into him. And he just had his hand on her head and was just no words were exchanged here. And I just sit there I don't I don't intercede at all. I just let see me work her magic. And this little guy just started loving on saving Lebanon saving and suddenly his you know, his sniffles dried and his tears dried. And he. And then I could see he was starting to engage with her. And he started giggling. And Sammy was trying to lick some tears off of his face. And he just thought it was hilarious. And so by the end of he ended up staying the whole hour. And by the end of that hour, when we were in that room, he can't he went from being this frightened, scared little guy who was hurting tremendously to being this joyous, just laughter filled kid, again, with no words exchanged, it was just love and presence. And I learned so much from Sammy and the way she would engage with people will after he had left the the counselor told us that his sister who is a teenager, had attempted suicide. And so his parents had to be at the hospital with his sister who did survive. I found out later. So he was alone at school and scared and not knowing what was happening with his sister was she going to live and so CME was able to just bring some calm into his life, I get a little choked up, I'm starting to get a little teary eyed just thinking about it, because it's just such a powerful, powerful gift and exchange. And again, I've I've learned a lot from a sweet dog.

What an amazing story. You know, it's very close to my heart. Because when I left my house at the age of 21, I got a small Pomeranian and he really saved my life. He gave me a purpose in my life. It was such an amazing feeling just to have him next to me. So very, you're doing such an amazing job.

Thank you so much. And I just feel I call it my soul work. We're all of this, all of this in the trauma recovery arena is my sole work because I just feel compelled to shine a light of hope. Because I've been in that darkness. And it's a scary place to be. And I just want to now that I've made it through that healing journey, and I'm still on the healing journey. It's a forever path. But to be able to be in this place of joy and tranquility, in reach my hand back into that darkness, I just I just feel called to do so.

Very, and I know you suffered a lot from panic attacks and complex PTSD, where when did it start?

Oh, my journey. My journey all started with horrific trauma that I can remember going back to four years old, and I can certainly go through my trauma story. And just to paint the picture and then what transpired after that if you would like Yes, please. Okay, so when I was four years old and intoxicated parent attempted to drown me and my one year old sister in a bathtub. When I was five I was sexually molested for the first time by a 16 year old neighbor alongside my five year old best friend. When I was nine, I was actually molested by a 19 year old neighbor when my mom sent me for a can of soup. When I was 10, I was repeatedly molested by my choir director. Also during those first 10 years of my life, my dad was physically abusive until he sought counseling and then stopped hitting us when I was 10. My mom was an alcoholic my entire life. So I never knew who was going to show up. At the end of the day. When I was 14, I was sexually accosted by a religious education director in the rectory of the priests where I worked in the evenings when I was 16 I lost my virgin Add to date rape. Later that same year I was attacked by a gang of youth in downtown Cincinnati with my friends. One of the police officers involved in that investigation asked my parents if you could take me to dinner to celebrate the 49 out of 50 convictions for that gang attack. And they said, Sure, he's a police officer, and he did not take me out to dinner. He took me back to his apartment where he attempted to rape me. When I was 21, I was involved in a bank robbery where a gun was held to my head, my coworker was stabbed three times with a hunting knife. They did not catch them. And three months later, they would return to our main office where I had just moved. Only this time, the man who had gun held the gun to my head would pull the trigger and murder my coworker. I had run from the back of the bank and came face to face with a second armed assailant who pointed his Luger at me, but the gun misfired and my life was yet again spared. So that was my crazy, first 22 years of life. And those are just the highlights, there was a lot more interwoven and all of that, like money struggles and so forth. And so after that, I just I started to have severe panic attacks, and I was on antidepressants, and I was on anti anxiety meds, and I it was it was the 80s and into the 90s. And there really wasn't a big knowledge of trauma and the impact that it has on our bodies, brains, systems, spirits, the whole, you know, the holistic view of traumas impact. And I just struggled, I just struggled every day, not knowing if that was going to be a day that I would wake up having a panic attack or experience one throughout the day. So I started having them while driving, I started to have them in open spaces I couldn't get from my car, to the grocery store. I I became agoraphobic for a while, but just an overwhelming fear of fear. And then in 2013, I decided I, I just couldn't do it anymore. And in found therapy, and my therapist recommended EMDR, which is eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. A big mouthful, and I ended up finding just a phenomenal, phenomenal EMDR therapist in Cincinnati, who was actually the president of one of the EMDR national boards. And she had, interestingly enough, a Labradoodle, who was a therapy dog, Cody. And when I went in to meet with her, Cody just was on me and cuddled in my lap. And that's why we ended up getting Sammy the Labradoodle because I was so just changed by this dog and this sweet little animal just knowing I needed that love and that. So it just had a profound impact on me. I spent four years 98 sessions doing EMDR therapy. And we slowly slowly dumped all of that trauma that I've compartmentalized into a big pile on the floor. And I started to learn how to process it and deal with all of that, that scary sensations that were in my body. And then the panic attacks dissipated, and I don't have them anymore. So that is my story.

Wow, what a story. I appreciate you sharing this with us. Thanks, Terry. How does this healing process works MDI, how does it work?

Oh, EMDR Oh, I'm the MDR Yes, I am the biggest fan of that. So So Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing. So what Dr. Shapiro, who is the founder and discoverer of EMDR was working with soldiers who had returned for more and noticed when they were speaking about traumatic events and more, that their eyes were moving back and forth. And so she came up with this way of going back in traumas, where you either look at a light bar that makes your eyes go back and forth through follow up with your eyes, or I held paddles in my hand that would vibrate left, right. Back and forth. There sounds you can put headphones on will have sounds going back and forth. But the whole gist is to go into what when we go into REM sleep, rapid eye movement. That's when we have those vivid dreams, right? And we process the day's events. And I sometimes say you know if you if you wake up and go Why did I dream about a giant tomato chasing me down the street like are those crazy dreams, right? And then, but then if we would think back a lot of times it's subconscious. Oh, we overheard two women sitting at a restaurant who were talking about getting food poisoning because they thought that tomatoes were bad. And so Our brain goes, Oh, tomato's bad. Let's process that. We process it through a crazy dream. And then it's gone. And it no longer haunts us. It's no longer is it causes triggering? Well, when we go through horrific trauma, so many times it overwhelms our system overwhelms our bodies, especially, you know, like me as a little kid, having all of that happened to me, my body couldn't handle it, my my mind my all of it. And so it just became this trapped stored negative energy that I didn't know what to do with. And so EMDR gave me a way to then revisit those traumatic events safely, we would do a lot of grounding work, we would do a lot of check in, like, where do you feel it in your body, I'd say, Oh, my stomach's should, you know, flipping off, somebody feels like somebody's squeezing my shoulder. So those kinds of like body sensations, body memories. And then we would go back into the trauma, I would, you know, follow the sound, follow the light bar. And just notice what comes up. And sometimes again, it would be a body memory, like, Oh, my legs are tingling, really, really bad. Or, oh, somebody squeezed gripping my shoulder. Or it would be the crazy things like I'm riding my tricycle in the sky, like but but we then we would follow it. And again, it became almost dreamlike, but consciously, to allow myself to just process and work through so many of these horrors. And then I would be exhausted and cry a lot afterwards for the next 24 hours, because, but I kept going back and kept going back because every single time and again, I might cry, I felt just a little more healing happening, I felt a little more hope. Because I thought I was broken forever. I truly did. And not understanding yet brain plasticity in the fact that we can rewire our brains, we can change the way those neurons are firing. Huge, it changed, it shifted everything for me, because now I understood that I could heal this that I could still have the memories, but not have the emotional charge connected to it. So like me just now going through all those traumatic events. I don't feel triggered, I don't feel panicky, I don't have anxiety. And I almost sound robotic when I rattle them off. But it's because they no longer have that emotional connection to it.

Isn't it a great feeling that feel free from those emotions? Yeah. Terry, I just want to I wanted to go back a little bit to your childhood when your parents first attempted to kill you in the bath. Why? Have you ever had a conversation with them? What was happening? Yeah,

good question. So my mom who is still alive, my dad passed in oh nine, and we did healing work together before he passed. So I feel very at peace with my relationship with my dad. My mom is 86 and she's now living sober. She didn't quit drinking until she was 8283. She had a little stumble this past year. But she's she's back to living a clean life. But when she quit drinking it in at 82, I was standing at the foot of her hospital bed with my sister next to me. And this story of the drowning had come up and we just and I said to her mom, you've got to start facing your own childhood traumas, what happened to what happened to you. And man, she cut loose like it was that it was that moment. And she started sharing the horrors that she had been through as a child violence, the hands of her own parents. Sexual abuse, and again, you know, I was seeing myself through her eyes and I was like, All right, now I'm starting to understand it. It's not excuse for her behavior. But now it was really starting to step back and not see it as Oh, I had this alcoholic parent who was neglectful or didn't treat me in such a loving and compassionate way when alcohol was involved, which was often and I started to say, this was a very healed little or hurt little girl who who is now 80 something years old and still hurting and is still that hurt little girl. And so I started to do some healing work with her and talk about these things like the bathtub incident, but she started seeing a therapist and she she started to do her healing work. So that's why I always tell people it's never too late like he or she is in her early 80s and doing her healing work. And now she just I mean, she was always a happy little jovial lady. You know, I loved her when she was sober. My son was amazing human in the world. I just didn't like her drinking. But she's just happy and joyous and loving life and living sober. And I couldn't I tell her all the time how proud I am of her because she did the healing work in her 80s. But why she tried to drown us was she, you know, she told me, I wanted you to go be with Jesus, I thought this life was too hard. It was and I was I was really wanting to save you from this life by sending you somewhere that I think is peaceful and loving. So while I think that's horrible. I also understand now that that was her trauma talking,

what made sure to stop drowning? Oh,

well, again, that's another part of the trauma story, my dad came into the bathroom. And I don't know if an angel appeared in his ear or what inspired him to open that door. But he did. And he punched my mom and knocked her across the bathroom. And she landed between the toilet and the sink. So again, very violent. My mom tried to stab my dad with a butcher knife, but he lifted a chair and it went through that I watched my mom be arrested. So there was just there was a lot of chaos just woven into my entire childhood. Again, you know, when I talk about my trauma, I just kind of put in some bullet points of things that had gone wrong, or horrific, not even wrong, horrific. But that that was just the way that's just the way my life was. And so I grew up thinking that was normal.

I can resonate with you. I felt like physical and mental and spiritual and sexual abuse was normal theory when your first sexual assault happened at the age of five years old. Did you tell to anyone,

that's been something we've been revisiting I, I've been going through a health crisis physically the last year doing much better, thankfully. But I started back to EMDR. Here in South Carolina, I found a wonderful practitioner, because I thought I wanted to take care of my mental health along this, this physical journey. So we started to go back into into that. And one of the things that I tapped into was standing in the driveway at five years old, and trying to tell my dad in him responding, we don't talk about that. So I don't know if that was an actual moment. Or if that was just like my brain trying to wrap around the fact. But I will say that to of my, of the predators that accosted me as a child, the 16 year old the first time, when I was five, he threatened to kill my mom, if I told anyone. And then the 19 year old that when I was nine years old, he also threatened to kill my mom, and we live next door to them. So I, that was again, part of that, that I internalized and took on that weight, along with being sexually accosted and sexually molested, of taking on that weight of, if I tell anyone, my mom will die. So again, I'm on the fence about whatever I tried to tell my dad or not, and whether again, that was a processing thing, or whether I really did try and he couldn't handle it. Because then once I started doing all this healing work, oh my gosh, then I dealt with my dad's trauma in his childhood, and everything started to make sense, because I started to look at it from oh my gosh, my dad grew up with an alcoholic father who was abusive to him. And, and I, again, I know I'm repeating myself, and I'm not making excuses. It's just coming from a place of understanding and compassion. Not without excusing the behavior.

And I completely understand where you're talking about, because looking back at my stepfather's childhood, him growing up with an alcoholic father, a very abusive man. And I remember my grandmother was telling me all these horrendous things, and she and she wasn't kind person either. She called my stepfather of very horrendous wars. No wonder he was he was passing on those kinds of behaviors on us when he was like, horribly controlling and abusive, but it helped me to forgive him. Honestly, I saw him as a five year old a year old years old boy He's so scared, and so damaged by his parents. And that's why I believe it's so important to heal.

And I my hearts hugging yours, because that's how I've, I've dealt with all of my forgiveness journeys. And I know forgiveness is one of those. Those, I don't want to say taboo, but one of the subjects in the trauma arena and the trauma recovery arena where some folks are like, I'm never forgiving, I'm not going there. Don't ask me to do it. And I say everyone's on your own journey, if you're feeling moved to forgive, certainly do the healing work, but it's not a prerequisite for reaching a place of happiness and peace. But I did the same thing. I let's just take the bank robber, James Mills, the one who killed Marsha Berger, and had held the gun in my head while I finally took a step back and said, You know what, he and I were both born these innocent little babies, right? These little creatures. And somewhere along his path, he chose, and yes, it was his choice. But he chose to go down this dark road, this dark path that included violence and crime and all that he had chosen. But when I saw him as this little being is this like little being of light, I was able to then forgive his soul. And it wasn't necessarily that I forgave him in his actions, but I was able to forgive his soul in this little creature. And so that's how I was able to do it. So I love it that you did this did a similar forgiveness. And

you're right. It's not about absorbing the responsibilities. Not it's definitely keeping a person and accountable for his actions. But it's more for for your, for your own health and for your own soul.

Yes,

theory, Have you forgiven your mother?

Oh, most definitely. I just adore her so much. And I can't even there's no animosity I talked to her everyday, we live a couple states apart now. And she truly is just a sweet, loving, kind, compassionate, beautiful soul who was very, very broken, and dove into vodka as a way to cope. And I get that now. And I understand that now. And even when she fell off the wagon, within this last year, she had, it was a Christmas. I was very kind and very patient and very just compassionate with her and she was able to pull herself back together. But I also understand, you know, our codependent relationship. And so we've healed that and I no longer the one that goes in and saves the day and cleans up the mess. And so that's been a part of that healing. But, you know, just to help you understand a really quick little story about my mom. So this was when my mom was still drinking. She did this. She was my sister and I had bought her this beautiful red wool coat that she had wanted so much. And she lives in a in Cincinnati, Ohio, which it gets really cold in the winter. And a couple of months after Christmas, like maybe I don't know, March or April, I saw her wearing her old black beat up coat. And I said, Mom, where's your red coat? We just bought you. You can wear it all the time. It's not just for fancy holidays. And she said, Oh, she said I was at the library. And I saw a teenage girl standing there waiting for the bus and she was shivering and she didn't have a coat on. And so I said to her, Do you not have a coat? And she said, No, I don't have one. And she said, so I gave her my new coat. And that's just the way she is now at first I was irritated because I was like, oh my god, what am I gonna do for Christmas? But then again, I was like, Oh, Mom, you're such a beautiful soul. Like that's how she tries to live. And so she really, really does try to do what's best. And she's has said, she's sorry for what we went through. She says I won't know I wasn't the best mother and I say, Mom, you did the best you could with what you had. And that's all I can do. That's all we can give each other.

Exactly. Through my own healing journey. Terry, I've realized on my own experience as well that drinking and you know, taking drugs, I haven't been taking drugs but my my husband did. gambling, sex addiction. All these escapism. It's all the result of childhood traumas. It's not just because we have nothing else to do, or because we are bad people. It's something is triggering those behaviors. in us. And now you are a mother of three beautiful kids theory and how you your own healing, help improve your relationship with your kids. Oh,

that's such a great question. I love it where my, my sons have certainly been through their journey because that was a very toxic, tumultuous relationship that I had with their father. I left him in 2011. But these kids grew up in that environment. And I had a therapist asked me, I take in my my youngest son, they're now 28 and 26. But I'd taken when he was a teenager, and the therapist literally said to me, why didn't you pack these kids up and leave sooner. And I just remember sobbing and saying, because I thought I was making the loving choice. Like, I thought by staying in this toxic relationship, because we lived in this perfect little community with our dog and our beautiful home and the kids went to their little Catholic school. And I thought that I was creating this beautiful, perfect life for them, not realizing they were living in just absolute toxicity. And so now they're doing their own healing work. And I'm so proud of them. Because my oldest is in EMDR therapy. And I'm like, Yeah, I love it. Because in our column and say, you know, how's it going, buddy, and he's like, Oh, I just did EMDR. And, you know, it's tough. It's rough, but I keep going back because I can feel the healing work happening. So he had a traumatic incident in college, as much as we tried to protect our kids from trauma. You know, life, life comes along and knocks us off our feet. And so I love it, these, these 20 something year old kids, I call them kids, because they're my kids are doing the healing work, and that they are armed with just these amazing coping skills. And mom filling them up with this over these last, you know, few years, and they're meditating, and they're doing yoga, and they're practicing all these things that I preach all the time. And again, I hate to see them hurt. But I'm just so darn proud of them for the self care that they're putting in place in in doing the healing work that I made

on my hazing. And I also believe that we need an adversity in our life to grow, but it made us just when we leave with unresolved and healed, that's when the impact, the negative impact. Is that working?

Absolutely. Yes, I talk about it often. And they I've had so many people say to me through the years, well, not so many. I've had a few people say to me through the years, just let it go. It's in the past. My mom tried that with me at one point before she had done her healing work. Oh, Terry, that happened so long ago, you keep you can't dwell on that. And finally, I was like, alright, Mom, we're going to have a little talk about ACEs science, which is adverse childhood experiences, and I'm going to help you understand the way it trauma impacts our brains, our chemistry, our bodies, our spirit. It has a profound impact, and we can't just let it go. It's not the way it works. And until we do the work, do the healing processes. And I'm not talking you have to do EMDR. I mean, there's somatic healing, there's tapping, there's whatever therapy, whatever modalities you go through to do your healing work, as long as it works for you. And I tell people, like, figure out what works for you try different things. I have this coping skills box. That's toolbox. That's humongous, because I'll try her oponopono Hawaiian healing and I'll try tapping or emotional freedom technique. I'll try meditation in just give it a whirl. See, see what clicks for you.

Debbie, how does it feel for you being healed? Or like, start healing? What sort of feelings you have

life altering? I just feel so very blessed. I've always been a person of positivity and people would say to me tear you radiate joy, you're always smiling. And how did you live through all that? And I'd say I have no idea. But then I realized I also had high resilience in my life. I had a grandmother in my life who was incredibly loving. Such a sweet gentle soul never yelled at me never hit me. Just a beautiful presence in my life. I had a second grade teacher who was invited me to her house and give me a little I still have a little heart trinket that she gave me a little Holly hobby ceramic And the little container that I kept like jewel earrings in and stuff. And so my feelings now are that trauma can come along or or moments of life can come along, it doesn't necessarily have to be trauma trauma, like this illness. Normally, this would have knocked me for a loop, right? But instead, I've looked at it from such a different lens through the healed lens and said, Okay, what lesson am I supposed to be learning through this struggle? What lesson am I going to take away from this? And so yeah, there's days where it's hard, and I cry, or I struggle a bit. But then I take myself up to the beach, and I sit, and I meditate, and I pray, and I look at the dolphins. And I just allow myself these moments of being in the now I practice mindfulness daily, I talk to my little lizards that live on the bushes in the front yard, and I, you know, allow the bird songs to just permeate my being. And I just practice gratitude. And I practice mindfulness and live in the moment. And then the scary stuff isn't so scary, and I feel joyous and peaceful,

I can feel your joy, and I can feel your face, the screen of my laptop. And the first time when we met, I saw your sparkling eyes, I saw your beautiful, big smile. And I could feel I could feel your energy. And it was before you start telling me your story. And I couldn't believe what you've gone through. It's a magic what's happening when you do a healing work. And what helped me is not to forget them and move on. But to face my deepest, darkest, really go deeper, and see what the situation was teaching me about. And I believe that a trauma can be a very powerful source of inspiration for self development, and self healing, and self love. It just depends what story you want to believe in, whether you want to keep going as a victim, or whether you want to keep going as a striver.

Yes, I love it. And I talk up, I so often bring this up on my show, as well as conversations with folks who are going through difficult times, we can move from being a survivor to thriver. And it's all a matter of being willing to go back into that darkness. And I'm not going to lie, it's scary to go back into that darkness. But when you have hands to hold, like yours, and your beautiful work mine, and so many survivors who have done the healing work, oh, how many folks I know who are in working in the trauma recovery Rini arena, who are trauma survivors, and they're doing it because they know that we all need a hand to hold. And so they we all just keep reaching our hands back in like, come on, you can do this. Come on, you can do this grab a hold. And yeah, it's a beautiful place to be is I know, you know, to be to make it through that theory. And

what inspired you to start your podcast, the healing place podcast,

that's such a great story. So I was working in a mental health agency in the school systems and putting that psychology degree to us. And one of my friends is it was a therapist, and she was in her 20s At the time, and I was in my 40s. And she said, Hey, Terry, we should totally start a podcast. I was like, That sounds awesome. What's a podcast? I have no clue. So she was said, Oh my gosh, Robles totally do it. So she and I started this podcast, the healing place by guests. And our first 10 episodes we did together. And it was just silly. It was talking about angels and aliens. And you know, we get serious about trauma and so forth. But it was just a fun, silly podcast. And she ended up getting a job offer at a children's hospital, and was running a private practice as well. And so she was like, it's just too much. It's too much for me to do with two jobs as a therapist. So I said, Okay, well, I'm going to keep going with it, but I'm going to take it in a little more serious direction. Yes, we still laugh And smile on the show. But I wanted to make it more about really focused in on trauma recovery. And that was the way it started. But I just started reaching out to big names in the trauma recovery world. I thought, Oh, what the heck, I'll reach out and say, Hey, would you want to join me on my show. And some of these names came back and said, I would love to be on your show. And oh, my god, like these people, some of them I just consider still dear friends, we're friends on Facebook. They're just beautiful, wonderful people, I learned so much from them. I've watched some of them blossom into these amazing huge businesses doing healing work, and touring and writing books. And now, again, they're teaching me how to do that journey and finish my book and launch it. And in all of that beautiful, beautiful healing work that that comes with. Then turning that around and offering it to others.

Your podcast is so amazing. And you're right. It's it's a, it's a difficult topic, but the way how you how you interview people, and how you create this safe and open environment where people just can open up is amazing.

Oh, thank you so much. I again, I just, I feel so blessed to be doing it. Because I think, wow, it continues to blossom. It's been downloaded in 114 countries, but I also interviewed people. I'll have people reach out to me from New Zealand, or, gosh, Italy, I just had someone on from Italy, just from all over the world. So it's helped me reach a global audience. And then it just one of my guests came on and said, where do you rank on Listen score, and I was like, What the heck isn't score. This is how I learned, right? So I popped on and it's in the top 2.5 of podcasts out of 2.8. And so again, I'm just like, oh my gosh, how did this happen? It's so crazy. Awesome. So I love it.

Thank you so much for helping people to heal throughout the world.

Oh, well, thanks, I again, I I feel blessed to be able to just know so many beautiful souls and have them come across my path. Because I certainly learned from them as well during these interviews, dairy,

and what tools do you use to help your clients to heal?

Oh, I think every no one is a cookie cutter, right? Like, No, we just don't have these cookie cutter solutions. So everyone has an individualized plan. And so just helping people understand one that no, you don't have to meditate to do healing, because some people will be like, I can't do it my mind, I can't get my mind to turn off. It's okay. I couldn't do breath work when my therapists kept telling me, you know, do practice these breathing exercises for square and but all the different types. And I thought, I can't do it. Because breathing to me, it would bring attention to the fact that I was in my body. And at the time, I was still doing the healing work. And I was terrified to be in my body. I would rather like be outside my body a little dissociated, and not be in my body. And so yeah, it's certainly, again, I have this huge collection of coping skills. And so it's a matter of going through and letting people really find what works for them. And coming up with a healing plan together. is the best way in my opinion to help them figure it out.

100% agree we all different Gary, where people can find you.

Oh, thanks. So my website is Terry Well, brock.com and that's te ri which just one R and then w e ll the letter B and then I always feel like I need to be like Roc Roc k like do the rocks. And oh my gosh, the healing place podcast is pretty much anywhere you want to tune in to podcasts. So I Heart Radio, iTunes, Spotify, Pandora, and then also on YouTube, I do videos of the shows. And then I also have some online courses and my coaching is available at Academy dot tarrywile brach.com. And that's my school. So those are probably the best places. Oh, and the Facebook page is just the healing place podcast. I think there's like 5600 folks there right now, but I just tried to put out a couple posts today with inspirational quotes or memes or stories. And then obviously the interviews

amazing. And before we go theory, do you have any concluding thoughts?

Oh, hashtag never give up. That's one of my na Hashtag hope for healing those are the two I use because there's always hope for healing. Absolutely 100% no doubt in my mind that you can do the healing work and never give up even in those moments where you feel overwhelmed, you're struggling, reach out, find a handhold and our even find a pod or hold right, you can find a CME. Paul, and you can get through this and never give up.