QCODE Media’s Steve Wilson on Bringing “Prestige” to Fiction Podcasts

Jeff Umbro: This is Podcast Perspectives, a show about the latest news in the podcast industry and the people behind it.I'm your host, Jeff Umbro, founder and CEO of The Podglomerate. Today on the show I am speaking with Steve Wilson, Chief Strategy Officer at QCODE Media. 

QCODE is a media agency known for their prestige fiction podcasts. They work with A-list talent like Matthew McConaughey, Demi Moore, Rami Malek, and often lead the way in the genre. Steve started working at QCODE three years ago, leading their strategy and working with major partners. Many listeners of this show might also know Steve from his time at Apple, where he spent nearly 15 years and was one of the first employees to work on the Apple podcast team. 

Today Steve and I will chat about what goes into making fiction series, how QCODE is utilizing IP within the genre, and we spend a bit of time talking about the current state and future of monetization in podcasting. Let's get right to it.

Welcome to the show, Steve.

Steve Wilson: Thanks for having me, Jeff.

Jeff Umbro: You are currently at QCODE. Would you walk our listeners through what QCODE [is]? I can give 10 different definitions of it, so I'm sure you're going to do a better job.

Steve Wilson: Yeah so QCODE is a podcast production and media company. We've been around for about four years and are mostly known for our original scripted fiction podcasts. 

So QCODE started a number of years ago. Our very first show was Blackout with Rami Malek. QCODE's done around 30 of those shows at this point in a range of genres – everything from a kid's show with Matthew McConaughey called Hank the Cowcog, a female erotica with Demi Moore called Dirty Diana, plenty of sci-fi, horror, and other kinds of shows.

So that's really where QCODE had its origin, but more recently we've really been branching out as a network, helping with distribution, monetization, and audience development for all kinds of podcasts, which we can of course talk more about. 

Jeff Umbro: Before we get into that, why branch out into these different avenues? What does the fiction universe look like in the podcast world today?

Steve Wilson: Yeah it's a really exciting space and it has been for a long time. Fiction is a category that really feels very old, but also new at the same time. Of course audio dramas have been around since the very beginning of radio, but in today's modern world they can be produced at a really high end level. we mix all of our shows, for example, with Dolby Atmos, so no longer the classic coconuts and washboards for sound effects and foley. 

It's a really engaging audio listening experience. If you’ve ever listened to a fiction podcast, it's much like a great book where you get to imagine the characters and the world in your own way. But these shows are produced at really high level, typically multicast, and as mentioned, really high-end actors. 

One of the exciting things that Rob, our founder, had seen an opportunity in is, frankly, taking those stories which start in audio, and then thinking about how those worlds could live in other forms. [How] the IP [could exist] in TV, film, books, and some other areas. 

I thought that creative development of podcasting was really incredible. I met Rob and the QCODE team back when I was at Apple and just felt like the creative ambition in audio was so unique that I had to jump at the chance to leave Apple and join QCODE.

Jeff Umbro: And what is your role at QCODE?

Steve Wilson: So I'm [the] Chief Strategy Officer – a little bit of an amorphous title – but I spend a lot of my days working on business development, partnerships, marketing... Most recently, [I’ve been] leading the efforts around our network expansion as we're partnering with other shows and doing distribution, ad sales, [and] monetization. I'm spending a lot of my time doing outreach, finding the right partners, and helping the overall QCODE network and our partners.

Jeff Umbro: What do you look for in a partner show, for like a distribution deal?

Steve Wilson: That's a great question. There's not a single factor for me. I think what's exciting in podcasting is there's so many different strengths in different areas, whether that's genre… It's also fun to build a network of shows with really big existing shows, but [also] identify the right up-and-coming podcasts that we can help develop, grow and, become the next big hit. 

So there's no one factor. It's really about the fun, unique nature of the creative, or the connection with the hosts. 

But we're taking on existing shows with big audiences, and then some that are down to a few thousand downloads an episode and really starting to work with them. One of my favorite things in my career has been working with podcasters from a really early stage and seeing them actually go full time in this medium – quit their day jobs and actually become a full-time podcaster. 

Jeff Umbro: You all launched as this prestige fiction podcast network with all of these originals, presumably so that you could upsell the IP and do many other things with that. Now when you pop on the website, you see chat casts, companion podcasts, you have one podcast I love called Thru where one of your engineers decided to hike the A.T., recorded the whole thing, and just sends it back to you all to edit and publish. 

I love seeing the expansion of different networks into different topics and genres to see what is effective. As you do this and as you pursue this, how do you approach ownership of the show versus licensing the show? What distinctions do you make? And is this kind of an amorphous ask when you're talking to these different creators or do you have a standard approach?

Steve Wilson: Yeah this is certainly a great area of discussion. So big picture, QCODE, like I said, did really start with a focus on original scripted fiction, and we've built the company to be a great creative partner to all kinds of talent, writers, directors, actors, podcasters in the formation of new original storytelling and IP. 

[But] the company was never designed to be exclusively audio fiction. QCODE launched a show with Markiplier, a mega YouTuber, one of the biggest in the world, a fiction show called Edge of Sleep. That show came out when I was at Apple and just [did] incredible numbers. So when it came time for Mark to want to do his own talk show, we helped him launch Distractible, which is a show he does with a couple of his buddies. It was incredibly successful – went to number one on Apple and Spotify. 

And really that was in some ways the genesis of us really saying, “hey we should really expand into our always-on programming. Limited releases, as everyone in the business knows, are a little bit hard. They're lumpy in terms of revenue and audience. So that really encouraged us to expedite our expansion to always-on podcasts. We've been doing those shows in a couple of different forms. 

To your question around partnerships and ownership, we try [to] take a really creator-first approach. So if we're in at the ground floor and maybe helping the creator launch the show, originate the creative, and funding production, I think it makes sense to set up a scenario in which that show is co-owned between the hosts and the network.

In other instances where we're coming on board as a partner with a show that already exists, already has an audience, and maybe just coming alongside the creator as a distribution and ad-sales partner, that doesn't really, in my opinion, warrant asking for ownership in a show, right?

We have all kinds of partnerships and again, we really try [to] think about it from a creator-first perspective – what's a pragmatic and fair deal [for] the level of investment we're making into a show alongside a creator. And I think that's one of the things we're known for, and we work really hard to maintain and are working to build further.

Jeff Umbro: That's the approach I like to see when I'm out in the world and I think a lot of the industry follows. It gets really complicated, but really the key is just making sure that everybody has some kind of upside or potential upside.

When you are producing a fiction podcast, what are things that you look at specifically that may be different from producing like a narrative show or a chat show.

Steve Wilson: The show really originates with that creative team and creative itself. So our team is really looking for distinctive ideas, maybe something we've not really heard or seen before. We've brought in shows at all different stages. Sometimes the podcasts we've made are just a pitch in a meeting with no materials, other times they've come in with full scripts and a show Bible explaining the world, and in other instances, the podcasts have been adaptations of works in other mediums. So it does start with the story and it starts with the creator in that selection process. 

We of course do think deeply about the audio experience. So there's some shows that don't make sense in audio or would be really too hard to tell in audio. So we let those opportunities go. 

But we also think really deeply about all the rest of the talent partners. Some of the shows, as mentioned, we've brought in noteworthy actors, and other instances we've had the shows led by podcast creators [in] a leading role. So we really think about who's going to be the most compatible talent partner in these roles and how we think about them in that long-term relationship around the show and the IP.

That's one of the things we also are really proud of is as we build these projects, we're usually empowering the actors [in] more of an executive producer and co-owner role. They're not just work-for-hire actors on the project and that's it. 

Jeff Umbro: Is there ever a situation where the actors come directly to you? Like does Matthew McConaughey say, “I want to make this show where I'm a dog?” Or is it always story first and then you find the talent that would be a fit?

Steve Wilson: Yeah, we definitely have had all different scenarios of origination. Sometimes it's the writer. Other times we do a lot of meetings with actors. Many actors today have production companies, so we do meetings with them by way of a general or a pitch meeting to hear the stories that they're excited about. And it's part of the process. 

Jeff Umbro: How do you market a fiction show? Is it any different than a chat show, for example?

Steve Wilson: Yeah. I mean, we've tried all different kinds of things. Fundamentally, some of the channels we know and love in podcast marketing still exist. Cross show promotions, utilizing audio, utilizing platform partnerships, aligning with the talent and providing them with various assets is really important. 

One distinctive thing that we've really tried to focus on in the building of the world and the brand of the fiction show is finding that right balance of visual design – taking audiences into the story a little bit by way of, not just the overall key art, but also episodic artwork or concept artwork, character sketches, [while] keeping in mind one of the things people love about these stories is seeing the world through their own lens and their own mind's eye.

We do want to provide some visual elements to help take listeners into the world a little bit more, at least spark their imagination. We think that's a pretty fun aspect of what we get to do there on marketing a fiction show.

Jeff Umbro: Your art is beautiful. I know you come from the world of Apple, which is very visual-first as people are searching through the app. What are some takeaways or tips that you have in terms of what people can think about when they're trying to create their own art? 

Steve Wilson: Well, thank you for the compliment and kind words. We're really proud of those visual artists that we bring on for various projects. And we spend a lot of time considering it as we look at the creative of each individual show. We try and frankly match the right artists to that project.

With that said, we definitely think a lot about the channels. Fundamentally you could make really great world-building poster art, but at the end of the day, it's going to be seen on podcast platforms as this stamp-sized piece of artwork. So you have to think about simplicity, artwork that does provide a bit of insight into the tone and texture of the show, so that listeners can understand what the genre is, [and] understand that it is something a little bit different. You know, it's not a buddy chat show. It's a fictional world-building kind of show. 

So you do try and provide a little bit of that tone, texture, originality, and the kind of design of the artwork while keeping it really simple so that you can distinguish those elements when somebody is just quickly scrolling on their, on their iPhone, looking for the next potential show.

Jeff Umbro: Yeah it's weirdly complicated sometimes to figure out podcast art that doesn't look like it's oversaturated in the market, or a replica of something similar, or boring, and that also tells the story of the show from like a visual application. 

How successful have you guys been in terms of cross-platform IP?

Steve Wilson: I mean we're really excited by the results we've had so far in terms of those shows being optioned at the major streamers. Of course the challenge as you get into TV and film development is [that] those timelines take a long time. We are excited by what is to come on that side. Can't announce anything today, but this is one thing that really distinguishes us as a company.

Rob Herting, our CEO, was a former talent agent, actually. So he did a lot of TV [and] lit packaging, [and] built some really incredible stories in his career as an agent. He is really the one who leads all of our efforts in adaptions of audio fiction. So he's a great human and obviously a huge reason as to why I went to QCODE.

Jeff Umbro: Well let's talk about that for a minute. You had a job at Apple where you, at one point, correct me if I'm wrong, were one of the only employees specifically working with Apple Podcasts. Your job was to basically optimize and curate what people saw on the discovery page – do I have that right?

Steve Wilson: Yeah. I had a long career at Apple. You know, I started way back helping build a platform called iTunes U, which was an educational podcast platform. And then went over to work on Apple Podcasts, pre-Serial, pre-StartUp. [I] wore a few different hats, but yeah I looked after the editorial and featured content, as well as really got to be a point of contact for a lot of folks in the industry, which was a ton of fun. 

And of course, as this industry [was] blowing up, it was exciting to be able to work alongside so many people as they built their companies and launched hit shows.

Jeff Umbro: You really did have a front-row seat to kind of the industry growth. What are – and this is outside of the realm of Apple, I know you don't speak for Apple – but what were some of the cool moments that you got to see with that front-row seat over the last decade and a half?

Steve Wilson: Yeah there was so much exciting experimentation. I love thinking back to that October 2014 timeframe – that was a sort of lightning in the bottle moment many of us in the industry think back to. A few things had come together [then]: that October was the launch of iOS 8 when the Apple Podcast app became pre-installed on every shipping iOS device. And the same month Serial and StartUp came out. 

Those were a couple of fun shows that I had the opportunity to work with the teams on and [for example] experiment with the idea of a trailer. We had never at Apple promoted a show with a trailer before, but given that those were serialized shows and ones you'd want to listen to from the very beginning, we put up a promotion with the trailer. I remember some of those early conversations where we were like, “well, what's a trailer? It's a piece of audio you call a trailer and you can warm up the feed and gain those subscriptions.” 

I don't want to wax too nostalgic here, but I think [about] a lot of those fun big hits that [happened]. You know, I think back to the launch of Tenderfoot TV and some of the cool things that Donald was doing by way of having a street team marketing his podcasts, experimenting with great video, and others in the industry really trying to build out these cinematic events in podcasting was really fun and exciting.

Jeff Umbro: I'm sure you probably just hit this point in your career where you were looking for something new, but you eventually did go to QCODE. Was there a catalyst that made you decide to make that move?

Steve Wilson: You know, I'd spent my whole career, about 15 years at Apple working on the platform side. I got to work with so many cool organizations and individuals in this industry who are building amazing content. But I was always spread thin – an inch deep and a mile wide [with] hundreds of partners, thousands, or tens of thousands of shows. I'd always thought it’d be fun and exciting to go to the other side of the table and really be able to help partners in a much deeper way from ideation to ultimately launch and growth of a show. 

As I mentioned, QCODE had become one of my favorite partners. Rob [is a] great human and really inspiring creative partner as well. As I learned a lot more about what they were doing at QCODE, frankly, I just felt like, in classic form, if I didn't jump at the opportunity to go and do it, I'd probably look back and regret it. 

And it's been about three years now, but it's still an education in terms of what that looks like to be on the publisher side of the industry. I think regardless of where my career goes, if I ever go back to a platform, I feel like I'll be a much richer partner, manager, or whatever the case may be having that holistic experience. So that’s kind of where my head's been at. But most recently, of course, [I’ve been] building QCODE. 

Jeff Umbro: And now, you know what it feels like pitching these apps. 

Steve Wilson: Yes. The dark art of pitching platforms. Yeah I have definitely a new appreciation for it, being on the other side of the pitches, as you mentioned. [I] nerd out on that kind of stuff, just because it's a core part of my background and how I think about things.

Jeff Umbro: So QCODE. Is one of a handful of fiction podcast networks. Who would you consider competitors to QCODE? 

Steve Wilson: Honestly, I think what's exciting is – not to sound a little cliche here – yes, of course there are companies competing for audience and certainly people making things in the same genre. But to be honest, I don't know that I actually think a lot about others in the space as true competitors. 

There's so much more room for people to get into podcasts in general, [to bring in] brand-new, first-time podcast listeners. But also there are hundreds of millions of podcast listeners out there that have never listened to a fiction show before. Whether somebody comes along and listens to something from QCODE, or an independent show, or a long-running show, like Welcome to Night Vale, or Old Gods of Appalachia, I don't really see them as competitors. 

I think all ships rise in podcasting, in terms of bringing new listeners in the door, and especially on a limited-series. You're making 10 episodes in a season, hopefully more seasons as well – there's opportunity for those listeners to jump around between networks, find their favorite shows, [and] listen within their favorite genres. 

So hopefully that doesn't sound too soft, but it's true. I don't tend to think of others in the space by way of competition.

Jeff Umbro: The way I think about it is less about competition in the sense of winning out over someone else, but what can you learn from these other people and what they're doing? Dan Meisner calls it co-opetition, which I always loved. 

We are in a very interesting place in this industry right now. It feels like we're hopefully coming out the other side of some more macroeconomic issues that have impacted the whole world, but podcasting and ad sales in general. Everyone I've spoken to is pretty optimistic about where the industry is going, but I always like to ask the question just to get a sense of how other people are thinking about it. So where do you fall here?

Steve Wilson: I mean, the world is ending Jeff. I think we're all going to need to pivot.

Jeff Umbro: [laughs]

Steve Wilson: I'm kidding of course. Look, I am very optimistic. The fundamentals of podcasting are there, there's more audience than ever before, the platforms are investing more than ever before, YouTube and others are really getting involved in the space with this, just being such a beloved medium and being so sticky. As we all know, it sort of takes over people's share of years or even how they frankly spend their time. 

I think that we'll make it through this moment and come out the other side, really further encouraged by where the adoption of on-demand audio is going.

Jeff Umbro: Can you talk to me about QCODE+ and just the idea of podcast subscriptions at large?

Steve Wilson: I think that one of the things that's really been exciting to see over the last couple of years, and I do remain bullish on, is subscriptions. Podcasting platforms like Patreon have done a really great job. You've had the team from Supporting Cast on the show. Apple’s [making investments] and Spotify and others kind of really eyeing that space.

I think that there really is an opportunity to expand subscription revenue in podcasting further – there's going to be such an interesting matrix [of] ways. 

In terms of how that evolves at QCODE, we have QCODE+ which is a subscription around our fiction shows. But we also operate a number of subscriptions with partners [at] a show-level, [with] subscription benefits [tailored to] that audience. For example, we have a show called Jillian on Love, which is a fantastic dating and relationship show. And the subscribers get an extra dose of Jillian just in time for date night on Thursdays by way of the Jillian on Love+ subscription. 

The other thing that's really interesting that we haven't fully realized yet is with Apple's most recent enhancements that came out in iOS 17, just a couple months ago, major app developers can actually also offer subscriptions in Apple Podcasts related to their existing app subscriptions that they have. So, rather than having to build a new subscription in Apple Podcasts, they can really unlock these entitlements, if you will, that you earn as a listener. 

So I think that that cover of existing app developer subscriptions is really going to further consumers' understanding of what premium or exclusive subscription audio can look like.

Jeff Umbro: What do you think the strategy is with Apple in terms of cross-platform opportunities? So you have Apple News, you have Apple TV, you have Apple Music. How do each of these sandboxes play with one another in relation to podcasting? And is it something that we shall pay attention to? 

Steve Wilson: Yeah, I certainly want to be clear, I'm not speaking on Apple's behalf. I've been gone for three years and don't want to come across like I'm speaking for them. 

But big picture, the exciting thing for Apple is that they have this sort of broader surface in the iPhone, right? They have a suite of services – Apple News, TV, Books. And you can see already where those different services have gotten more and more engaged in podcasting. Apple TV's launched originals, Apple News and Apple Music have their own original podcasts. Many of those services have advertised on podcasts. So there is a strong ecosystem or synergy play for Apple around podcasting.

Ultimately the opportunity for a publisher or a content maker is to try and think about those things, and certainly align their show in this partnership with a platform that will help their show be successful on that given platform. 

And that's one of the things I really encourage people to think a lot about is, even as you're pitching your show or building something, pay attention to what the different platforms are doing. Spotify is really investing in listener engagement, Q&A prompts, video within their platform... So the degree to which it makes sense for a given podcast to align with those initiatives, the platforms certainly unlock more opportunities for audience growth. 

Jeff Umbro: Thank you so much for chatting with us today. This was a lot of fun. We've met and chatted several times, but I've always been a fan. So thank you for taking the time. 

Steve Wilson: Yeah, absolutely. Same, my friend. Great to be able to sit down with you and have this conversation. [I’m] excited for you and where the podcast is going.

Jeff Umbro: Thanks again to Steve for joining us. To find more from QCODE, you can visit their website at qcodemedia.com. You can find Steve on Twitter @stephenwilson. 

For more podcast related news, info, and takes you can follow me on Twitter @JeffUmbro. Podcast Perspectives is a production of The Podglomerate. If you are looking for help producing, distributing, or monetizing your podcast, you can find us at thepodglomerate.com. Shoot us an email at listen@thepodglomerate.com or follow us on all social platforms at Podglomerate. 

This episode was produced by Chris Boniello and Henry Lavoie. And thank you to our marketing team, Joni Deutsch, Madison Richards, Morgan Swift, Annabella Pena, and Vanessa Ullman. And a special thank you to Dan Christo. Thanks for listening, and I will catch you next week.