Tenderfoot TV in 2024 with CEO Donald Albright

Jeff Umbro: This is Podcast Perspectives, a show about the podcast industry and the people behind it. I'm your host, Jeff Umbro, founder and CEO of The Podglomerate. Today on the show, I am speaking with Donald Albright, co-founder and CEO of Tenderfoot TV. 

Tenderfoot's backstory is well known in the podcast world. It developed out of Payne Lindsey's hit show, Up and Vanished, which he made in collaboration with Donald. Payne Lindsey hosted and produced where Donald handled the business side of things. Fast forward to today in 2024, Tenderfoot TV is one of the most successful independent companies in podcasting with slate deals from iHeart, Audacy, Spotify, and many, many other companies.

Today, Donald and I have a broad conversation about the history of Tenderfoot: his early collaboration with Payne, how they built out the network over the last few years, and what their strategy is looking into 2024 and beyond. So let's get right to it.

Hey, Donald. Thanks so much for joining us. 

Donald Albright: Oh man. Happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Jeff Umbro: So I wanted to start,and you're probably sick of this, because I hear it in every interview that you do, but I want to start with your background in the music industry and like how you came to podcasting.

Donald Albright: Yeah, no, I love talking about this because I think it, it still helps me every single day in this current business.

[I] came to Atlanta to go to college, ended up at a party where there were a bunch of celebrities, and I just started networking, grabbing business cards. Next thing I know, I'm on a street team Full Face Records. This is that back in the day, like early 2000s, late 90s, passing out flyers hand to hand, and CDs, and believe it or not, cassette tapes – [I’m] aging myself. But you really get an opportunity to like interact with consumers and understand people at a personable one on one level.

We were doing promotions and marketing real well. We were doing wrapped vehicles all over NBA All Star Week in Atlanta and Miami music conferences. And then from there, just being in the business and learning the business, I started a management company, started managing artists that were either on the come up or very early in their careers and able to really see them thrive and reach the heights of their careers and learned a ton about talent management.

The issue that I had and why I ended up transitioning out of music, I just got burnt out of making other people's dreams come true. And not being in control of how to actually do that and sustain that. Being burnt out, I was working with the music video director at the time, Payne Lindsey, who was an incredible director. We built a very good relationship over several years of working together, touring the world together, doing tour content and video content. 

He was burnt out of making music videos. I was burnt out of managing talent. And he said, let's go make a documentary. That documentary ended up being a podcast and it being Up and Vanished. And we literally used everything we learned in music every day, building this company and keeping it on the tracks.

Jeff Umbro: I love that. I have a lot of parallels in my background. For me, it was books, but somebody said to me like 10 years ago, you can throw a million bucks into Facebook ads or build a website or, you know, do a PR campaign, but is that going to be more effective than going to grand central and handing out like flyers about the thing that you're trying to promote?

You actually like were doing the street teams and wrapping the trucks and everything. I'm so curious from your point of view, how effective that was in 2016 and 2017 versus if you were to try and do the same thing today. Like, do you think it would work as well as it did back then?

Donald Albright: So when we started out with Up and Vanished, it came out in August of 2016. So Payne had like 5,000 Facebook friends at the time, right? And he was like, well, at the very least I need to target my Facebook friends, right? Like the people who I know, because at the time when you're not listening to podcasts and you've never made a podcast, you don't have a podcast audience. There's not a well to go to and say, hey, I got this new thing. Check this out. 

So you're basically promoting to family and friends, which I can tell you is a bad idea in this day and age. You should start with your circle, but it's hard to turn someone into a podcast listener so that they can then listen to your podcast. 

What we did, because we had zero experience in podcasting, we only knew of one other podcast that we thought was a good comp, and that was this AJC, which is Atlanta Journal Constitution, [a] local Atlanta newspaper, that had a podcast called The Breakdown, which was a true crime podcast, at the time was covering a Atlanta, Georgia, true crime case. And we bought an ad on that podcast. So we knew at least that the very basics of like that thing matches the audience that we're looking for, we're going to buy there. 

And at the same time, we knew that in order for people in Atlanta to care, the people in Ocilla, Georgia, where this crime took place, they had to care, right? In order for Alabama to care, Georgia had to care. So Payne came up with this idea, so let's just run Facebook ads targeting just that area because those people know something. They know the most about it. That's kind of how we started off the organic targeted promotion. 

And then that Podcast Movement is when you really just went all out with everything that we knew from music. We had a wrapped video truck driving around the conference. All in that video truck was the Up and Vanished video trailer blasting out the audio. Dan Franks kept getting calls from the hotel, like, whose truck is this parked in the front? And then I'd get a text from Dan, like, why is your truck in the front?

From there, we had a street team, you know, six to eight people out there wearing Up and Vanished t-shirts, passing out flyers saying, come to this panel that we're doing – a talk from Payne [who] was the host Up and Vanished. 

We had it all. We had flyers, we had t-shirts, we had [a] street team, we had everything. And we just borrowed all that stuff from what we learned in the music industry. And they just weren't doing it yet, really in podcasts. And it was kind of very polite and very formal. And we were like, we don't come from polite and formal. We come from kicking in doors versus knocking on them. So we just took that approach.

Jeff Umbro: You really took the street team approach with Up and Vanish back in 2017. Are you still doing that with like net new releases today? Or have you built a big enough audience where you kind of are able to just pull like the online levers and like, know what's going to work?

Donald Albright: Never know what's going to work. And if you start thinking, you know, what's going to work, you're on your way to failure. You know, if you're not challenging yourself to change it up... I've been a victim of that too. I'm not talking like I've never made these mistakes. So, you know, do as I say – it's like, no, I've made these mistakes. So I'm telling you, if you can avoid making the mistakes that I made, please do. Like, that's what I'm, that's what I'm here for. 

So you have to, again, go right back to the basics of the very individual show that you're promoting and ask yourselves again, who is my listener and where are they? And then when it comes to, do we still do similar types of street promotion stuff? We did that for effect more so than we did for, um…

Jeff Umbro: You didn't think it was going to turn into downloads?

Donald Albright: Yeah. Some things we do for downloads, some things we do for, you saw me there. If you ask Steve Wilson today, when's the first time you heard of Tenderfoot? He'll say like, oh, I saw the Up and Vantage cover on Twitter one time. Love the cover. So I tweeted about it. And we were like, oh shit, Steve Wilson knows that we exist. That's incredible. Right?

And then Steve was like, when's the first time you saw us in person, saw Tenderfoot in person? He'll talk to you about Podcast Movement 2017, the street team, the flyers, the truck. He'll always remember that. Right? So some things you do to make an impression on the people who can see the thing you're doing, and they may never listen to the thing you're promoting, but they might remember the brand that was behind it or the show that was behind it. And they might say, never listened to Up and Vanished, but I remember like, it must be legit or it must be big because I saw it big. 

You just figure out how things work for the project that you're currently working on and you try to tap into something different that most people maybe aren't doing. I didn't see many people passing out flyers. I didn't see many hosts out there promoting their show. So that's what we try to do is something a little bit different that feels new and people can talk about. 

Jeff Umbro: And on the same note, the people at Podcast Movement are the ones that you want to know about your show. They're the people in the industry. They're the ones that are going to talk about the show. They're going to write about it. They're going to put it in their newsletters. To your point, like a lot of podcast marketers today are stuck in kind of the status quo of, of how to do a thing, because we know to an extent what works and you have data that shows what's going to be effective.

You are like such a pioneer in the space when it comes to running these like non-traditional, in addition to traditional marketing tactics. Like what are some cool things that you've been interested in lately or things that you've seen that were exciting in the marketing realm? 

Donald Albright: What we're doing and what I would suggest other networks do, is everyone's doing cross promos and feed drops and trailer drops. We've been dropping full episodes for a while now. I might have an iHeart show or an Audacy show, and I want to drop that in another show that I own, but that's being distributed by the other company. And I want to take a full episode and drop that full episode.

So this isn't necessarily just a marketing tactic, but a monetization tactic where if I'm dropping any full length content, I'm monetizing that content. So even if it's a Up and Vanished episode one is dropping in to Live and Die in LA feed, it doesn't have to be ad free. You can still put ads in that and monetize that.

[That] also [incentivizes] the to Live and Die in LA team of like, hey, because it's going in your feed, it’s generating money for your project, not Up and Vanish as a project. So that's kind of a way to get both monetization and marketing at the same time. 

A lot of it's just hard work and thinking outside the box. What does your booth look like if you're going to have ya booth? You know, what do your shirts say versus just having a logo on your shirt? Right? It's like you have to invent it, right? You just have to like understand the things that worked before and why they worked and apply that to a creative idea that you have.

Jeff Umbro: I do love that and I like how you walk the walk as well. Silly example, but like you go to the Tenderfoot website and you go to the about page, you have these like great animations for everybody on your team, and then if you hover your mouse over it, it'll add sunglasses or something. Those details matter. And they stand out.

I want to ask you a little bit about when you first launched Up and Vanished, what was the vision? Like where did you hope that you would be in 2024 back then? And then like, how does today align with that thought back then? 

Donald Albright: I think we're a good example of that you don't have to know where you're going, you just have to be going somewhere. Right? Where I thought I'd be is that we would put out Up and Vanished, Hollywood would come calling, we would make The Jinx or Making a Murderer called Up and Vanished. And in 2024, my IMDB would be crazy with the best documentaries, fiction and nonfiction limited series and movies, and I would be a Hollywood producer. That was a the vision. 

I have not accomplished that. And it's not because I didn't want to accomplish it. It's not because I even tried to accomplish it. It's because what we discovered on the way of trying to make that happen was what we feel is a better path, right?

What we discovered was this medium called podcasting that we initially took for granted. We initially thought podcasting was this stepping stone in audio that we would use to get to TV and film. When we started making the content and hearing how people responded to the content and the flexibility that we had in the oversight of what we could put out. Who could tell us yes and no? No one, only us, right? We were in complete control of our destiny, of our creative vision, of the marketing of how we were going to build the company around this one show. 

And that freedom, I mean, it was something that we didn't think we could get anywhere else. So podcasting became the destination instead of the stepping stone. That's when Tenderfoot became a name in your podcast app under Up and Vanished to an actual company, right? We never intended to have more than one podcast because we were financially successful on our first podcast. 

We could invest our own money into our second podcast. And that second podcast was a true crime podcast that was from the same like family of Up and vanished creators and a lawyer who was featuring up and Vanished. And we peeled off 60 percent of that audience to have our second successful show. Right? 

So we just followed the path that was directly in front of us. Instead of looking, man there's a turn coming up in three miles, and we were going somewhere, rather than saying I'm going right in this very specific place and I need to be there by 2024.

So when we didn't look too far in the future, we were able to be successful in the present and not over think too far ahead and miss the things that are right in front of us. So at a certain point, we started thinking about the future because we finally had our feet firmly planted in podcasting. So we started finally thinking a year in advance, two years in advance, three years in advance. But back in 2016, I mean, I wasn't thinking about 2017.

Jeff Umbro: I do wanna ask you though, because you guys launched Up and Vanished, and it's about a woman who was murdered in Georgia, when the show started, you didn't necessarily know kind of what was going on there. It was a cold case and nobody really knew what was happening. But throughout the process, and the listener gets to experience this journey with Payne as he experiences it, what did it feel like to be making that show kind of in real time and figuring out what was going to happen as you did it?

I'm sure parts of it were terrifying and parts of it were exciting and parts of it were sad and scary. And what did you go through during that process?

Donald Albright: Yeah. I mean, everything that I'm going to say, multiply by 10 for Payne, because I, for the most part, for the first half of Up and Vanished, was like a cheerleader and a supporter to let Payne do what I knew he could do. I knew this guy knows how to tell a story. You know, he edited the whole entire first season in Adobe Premiere, a video editing program. So I knew he had the skillset to figure this out. 

And the main thing it takes is like ambition. And a little bit of recklessness, right? Like it takes being reckless to like knock on the door of someone who may be a suspect, right? Or you gotta be a little bit crazy, a little bit ambitious, a little bit reckless. And also when you combine all of that with like a good intention behind it, solving something, providing answers, you know, it was the perfect storm of those things coming together. 

So if you ask me, like that whole process was… It was stressful. It was fast paced. There wasn't really a lot of time to like think it was happening and you were reacting right? One day you're putting out a podcast that you made in your apartment. The next day you're on Good Morning America from the courthouse steps. It's like, all we were doing was running, chasing whatever was next because it was happening so fast. 

I mean, imagine you're in the office, you know, we took a break after episode 12. We're finally ahead on episode 13 and it's coming out the next week and you get a call. It's like Payne, there's a press conference being held in, you know, three hours. So it's like he hangs up the phone, gets in his car, calls me and says, go rent a camera. I'm bringing a camera down with me. Meet me in Osceola at the courthouse. 

I go rent a camera. I'm speeding down to Ocilla. I get pulled over and get a speeding ticket. So I missed it. By the time I get there, the press conference is over. But he's now part of the story because Good Morning America is there, Dateline is there, all local and national news is there and they're saying this podcast is like part of the story now.

We're just completely responding to what's happening around us and trying to not like screw this thing up. That was the feeling. 

Jeff Umbro: What was your role specifically? I know Payne was actually making the show and producing it, and I'm sure you had a lot of input on that. You are the CEO of Tenderfoot TV, and what you're doing today, I'm sure it was probably a little bit different than what you were doing back then. But what were you doing day to day during that show's first season?

Donald Albright: For the first part of it, it was navigating and learning the business. Like we're walking into a business we know nothing about, right? Because I hadn't even listened to a podcast. Like Up and Vanished, season one, episode one, first podcast I ever listened to.

Jeff Umbro: That is the craziest thing to me. I love that story.

Donald Albright: It’s crazy. And like, I don't recommend it, but like, again, because we weren't trying to get into podcasting, I didn't need to listen to a bunch of podcasts. I just trusted that Payne knew what he was doing. And he had my trust because we had worked so long together.

Then we started thinking, okay. This is costing us money, right? So, Audioboom reached out after, I think, three or four episodes, and they said, do you want to monetize this? And we were like, sure. We didn't even know we could make money off this. So, if you want to monetize it, great. Started making money, $250 per ad, after about five episodes.

So then it became understanding: what is a CPM? How can podcasts be monetized? What are baked-in ads, you know? Average ad load. All these things. All foreign to us. But starting in business, I was like, oh, now I can really contribute because Payne is carrying the load making this show. I can contribute on the business side.

And I knew Payne chose me not because he needed me to make the show with him. He chose me because he saw me in a business capacity for the past five years, as I was managing talent. Handling budgets, coordinating tours, all that stuff. Working with him, giving him budgets, and even creatively working with him to see his vision. 

And like, when the case started to really break and started to get a little more crazy, I became a little bit more involved with interviews, meetings, and like, what are we going to do next? What should we do strategically when it comes to these off weeks or bonus episodes, things like that. 

So then it became more of a team effort to like, I remember being in Ocilla at the newspaper. It was me, Payne, the editor of the newspaper, and the mayor of the town all talking about this case and talking about how we were gonna actually end the next episode.

Really it was like, if we end this episode this way, how will that play locally? Because these are two locals. So we were very sensitive to how the local community was going to respond. Looking back on it and talking about it, it's like, man, I can't believe all of that happened. It was such a crazy experience.

Jeff Umbro: No, it's funny. I was telling you before we started recording, I've never listened to Up and Vanished and in preparation for this interview, I thought I would listen to the first episode, and then a week later I listened to the entire first season, which was not short. 

Donald Albright: That’s a commitment. It was supposed to be 12 episodes. Then it was supposed to be 18 episodes. It ended up being, I think, 25, 24? And the final episode was a two-parter. And then we had a bunch of bonuses in between. 

Jeff Umbro: I was so annoyed when I saw that you started doing case evidence. Because I'm like, oh, I can't not listen to it.

We've talked a lot about how you guys made this show. We've talked a lot about how you marketed the show. But I did want to talk through some of the partnerships that you guys have had over the years, because, you've talked a lot about this in other interviews, but today in 2024, you guys are working with all of the biggest audio companies. You have partnerships and slate deals with iHeart, with Audacy, with HBO, with Audible, with many, many others. 

How do you go about thinking about these partnerships? Like, what do you hope to gain from them? Like, is it just financial or is there more to it than that?

Donald Albright: There should always be more to it than financial. Money cannot be your end goal. There are steps you have to take to get to that certain level of success where you can make money, but money has never been the motivating factor for any partnership. 

The first million dollar deal that we were offered, we passed on. We took a deal that was worth 40 percent less. That deal was with Cadence13. It was for Up and Vanished season two.

Jeff Umbro: How did dinner taste that night when you turned that down? Was that a tough one to swallow?

Donald Albright: No. Here's the thing. We were already successful. What I care about is success and money is not a true indicator of success, right? A lot of this money is borrowed. A lot of this money is not real until it's actually in your hand. Right? I wasn't born knowing this stuff. I know this because I've made mistakes, because I've counted money before I had it. Right? 

So we looked at what partners are going to help us be the most successful. And that's how you made our decisions.

But the first way we made our decision on partners was also strategic. We had no partner at first when we launched Up and Vanished. Then Audioboom came and we said yes to them because they asked. They wanted to work with us. 

And then came a time where we're like, okay, how could I learn more? I have to learn more by working with more people. I only know how their company works. So a random meeting with Jason Hoch from HowStuffWorks sparked a conversation about a partnership between Tenderfoot and HowStuffWorks on Atlanta Monster. A new partner means now I'm handling the business side of this. I can now learn from HowStuffWorks’ ad sales team and their marketing team. And now my knowledge has expanded because I'm learning from two different companies. 

So it was always strategic working with as many people as you can for knowledge purposes, right? On Up and Vanished Season 2, we we're looking now for who could be our best partner. It just felt like it was time for a change. I had a conversation with Chris Corcoran over at Cadence — and literally we were sold, we knew we were going with another company. 

We took this meeting out of courtesy to our agent, Oren Rosenbaum. He was like, you know, this company's new, [I] love Chris.We were like, we kind of have our mind made up, but we'll take it. We never don't take meetings, you know, so we'll just take this meeting. Oren wanted us to do it. 

[We] took the meeting, loved Chris instantly. And we were like, man, I think this guy will go to bat for us. I think we can be successful here. Chris was like, can't give you the biggest deal, but this is what I can give you. We did, let's do it. We did Up and Vanished Season 2 with Cadence. That was like a pilot program for our business relationship. Ended up being our first big slate deal where we did six deals, six shows. And the first time we really got advanced on new shows that weren't even ideas yet. 

So all the leverage that we built with Up and Vanished being successful allowed us to get every other deal. And what that allows us to do was work with a variety of partners. 

And the strategy around working with a lot of partners, it changed from year to year. Now it's about not fighting to be at the top of the industry, but fighting to stay in the middle, in the center of the industry, accessible to everyone, accessible to Netflix when they want to do a companion and HBO when they want to do a scripted series that Issa Rae is going to EP. 

So working from the center out instead of from the top down trying to fend off number two. I'm not worried. I'm not concerned with that. I'm concerned about making great content, working with great partners and being accessible to everyone. And I value being able to say yes to anything because no one can tell me that I can't take on that show. I can't put this thing out. So having that freedom and that independence is key.

Jeff Umbro: What are some of the challenges that you've run into with some of your partnerships? 

Donald Albright: Partnerships and companies are made up of people. Right? I don't like when people say, this company is this way, this company is that way. People are a certain way, right? It wasn't Cadence13 that sold me on that deal, it was Chris Corcoran. And then when I came in and met the rest of the team, I was like, oh man, I'm sold on all these people that they have over here, right? 

And it's challenging when, when people leave and there's turnover or when companies change strategy.  We've had that happen a few times, you know, big companies have a huge investment one year, the next year, complete change of strategy, the next year, complete change of strategy. And I get it. Everyone has a different agenda. iHeart, what they're trying to do is different from what Audacy is trying to do and what Spotify is trying to do and what Netflix and HBO are trying to do… 

So you just want to be in a position to navigate and do good business. And, you know, we've had our challenges, the money's there one year, the next year it's not right. And you have to just understand like, what fight am I in? Am I in the fight to be right? Am I in a fight to make good content? Am I trying to prove a point? The main thing you have to do is make good decisions that will keep you sustainable. 

And don't plan for the best, plan for the worst. I'm not a believer of believing everything's going to go right. I plan for things to go right and have a planned out strategy if all this shit falls apart. What do I control? So last year when the ad market tanked and when limited series were no longer being sold and when deals that we had were in flux and money that was supposed to come in, wasn't coming in, we leaned on subscription revenue. Apple came calling and said, if we're launching subscriptions, would you be a launch collaborator? We were like, we've been thinking about this for a while. We're not ready, but because you came calling, we will make sure we're ready in four months. So we launched that and [that’s] another form of independence, another revenue stream.

And that helped us expand in a year where other people were retracting, right? We hired more people last year than we hired in any year of the company. When everyone else was laying off 20%, 10%, 30% of their company, we acquired a whole arm of a company last year. We could do that because we had investments other than any one partner, right?

So when one partner's down, one partner's up. When two partners are down, subscription is up. I always have something I can focus my attention on and the company's attention on to make sure that we aren't putting all of our eggs in one basket and have a backup plan for the backup plan. 

Jeff Umbro: With 2024 off to what I'm seeing as like a really big, exciting start, are you really optimistic about the future? What are you paying attention to now?

Donald Albright: I'm paying attention to limited series ad buys, and I will measure the health of our industry on that. Because the industry was very, very successful when those kinds of shows were successful. I think we've tried to make this too easy.

I think when the folks who are bankrolling these shows are consumed with celebrity talent and the quickest, easiest way to make the money instead of the thing that's going to continue making money long term, which I think is IP, right? Ownership of IP and story. 

There is never going to be a one-on-one talk show type of series. I don't care how great that host is or those guests are, that is not going to impact an industry as much as a Serial has impacted an industry. And you can say Joe Rogan, but it's proven that that is not repeatable. What is repeatable is the formula that is Serial, because we've had Crime Town and we've had Up and Vanished. You just can't [become] Joe Rogan in 12 months. Joe Rogan has been made over two decades, right? Three decades, to get to where he is. 

So when the big companies start investing in and profiting from limited series again, that's when I'll say we're in a really good place in this industry.

So I have to say to our partners like iHeart, our partners like Audacy, who are investing in what we do, which is 80% limited series, 80% narrative nonfiction, I have to stand up and applaud those companies for taking those risks because a lot of companies are abandoning that for what I think is the cheapening of our industry.

Jeff Umbro: My soapbox lately has been that the shows that listeners want is very different than the shows that advertisers would like to buy on. And that is not a sustainable practice. At some point, we are going to have to reconcile the fact that these two things need to exist together. And I don't think a lot of ad agencies really see the long term picture here.

So it's really refreshing to hear that you're doubling down on that because not a lot of people are doing that. 

Donald Albright: It’s up to us, the people who make the shows, the hosts that make the shows, the CEOs that own the companies that make the shows, to take on that challenge of convincing those advertisers and those ad agencies why these shows are worth it.

If I'm not at least once a month, every two weeks, talking to the sales teams at iHeart and the sales teams at Audacy and arming them with the things that I'm saying so they can repeat those, or if I'm not meeting directly with advertisers about why this is important for them to do, then I can't complain when they're not doing it. I can't just make the shows. All of us with influence have to do more to sell the product. It's not just, I'm gonna make it so you buy it. No, I have to make it. I have to make sure it's successful and I have to then sell you on it. I have to do all the work from A to Z, not just part of it and leave to someone else to do the hard work

Jeff Umbro: So what kind of work are you doing with the Podcast Academy? You sound like a very busy person. Why are you then taking some of your precious time to give back to that particular community?

Donald Albright: Really because if we are all selfish, we will not have a thriving industry at any time, right? I see a lot of competition that's not friendly competition, right? A lot of cheering when people fail. It's like a big company fails, we celebrate for some reason in this industry. I don't know why it affects us all. 

I want to be in a position as an independent podcaster that has relationships with all these majors, and is having success, to be able to not be aligned with any one way that this thing has to work, right? And to be an example of like, if I can work with everyone, I can root for everyone. It doesn't have to be that this person's success has to be this person's demise. 

So the Podcast Academy, if we can set the example of community and understanding the business, how to make money in podcasting so that this can be less of a hobby and more of a job, education, if we can all come together around celebrating each other, right? If only one person wins. Everyone else loses. So I would rather us all win. 

And I think there's a way of doing that by working together. And if we can all come together unbiased with the Podcast Academy and say, the better educated we are as an industry, the better decisions we'll make on the business side, the better content we'll create.

If we were expanding out more internationally, the stronger we will be as an industry, bringing in dollars from around the world instead of just in the US. That's why I dedicate my time to it. And I think everyone else should as well. 

If you're in your own bubble, and not having success, blame yourself. If you're only building a community designed to only help you, don't be surprised when no one helps you. You know what I mean? So you have to give in order to get, and I think leading by example is the only way to get that message across.

Jeff Umbro: I love that. Thank you so much for joining us and really appreciate you coming on.

Donald Albright: No, happy to do this. Thanks for the invite. And anytime you need me, just let me know.

Jeff Umbro: Thank you again to Donald for joining us. You can find him on LinkedIn and Twitter @dalbright03. You can find more from Tenderfoot at tenderfoot.tv. And you can listen to Season 4 of Up and Vanished wherever you get your podcasts. 

For more podcast related news info and takes, you can follow me on Twitter @JeffUmbro. Podcast Perspectives is a production of The Podglomerate. If you are looking for help producing, distributing, or monetizing your podcast, you can find us at the podglomerate.com. Shoot us an email at listen@thepodglomerate.com or follow us on all social platforms @podglomerate. 

This episode was produced by Chris Boniello and Henry Lavoie. And thank you to our marketing team, Joni Deutsch, Madison Richards, Morgan Swift, Annabella Pena, and Vanessa Ullman. And a special thanks to Dan Christo and Katelyn Bogucki. Thanks for listening and I will catch you next week.