Episode 12 - The Daemon Of Playfullness

Your Most Obedient & Humble Servant
Episode 12: "The Daemon Of Playfullness"
Published on November 24, 2020

Note: This transcript was generated by Otter.ai with light human correction

Kathryn Gehred 

Hello, and welcome to Your Most Obedient and Humble Servant. This is a Women's History podcast where we feature eighteenth and early nineteenth century women's letters that don't get as much attention as we think they should. I'm your host, Kathryn Gehred. This week, we have our first time ever returning guest host, and I'm very happy to welcome back Mary Wigge. Hi, Mary!  

Mary Wigge

Nice to be back.

Kathryn Gehred

Thank you so much for coming back to the podcast. 

Mary Wigge

Yeah. 

Kathryn Gehred

So the last time you were on we were talking about the awkward Adventures of Thomas Jefferson's granddaughter, Cornelia.

Mary Wigge

It was like a pure pride and like prejudice, remake. It was great.

Kathryn Gehred 

And, this time, we're going to get a little bit back into our actual wheelhouse with a letter from George Washington Secretary Tobias Lear. Now, in case people have forgotten so Mary, you want to can you tell us a little bit about who you are, and what you do, and how we know each other?

Mary Wigge

Sure, I'm a Research editor with the Washington Papers specifically working on Martha Washington Papers Project. But yeah, I know you're going to introduce him, but that's how we've kind of gotten to know that about Tobias Lear.

Kathryn Gehred 

Mary is one of the few people that shares my not it's not an obsession with Tobias Lear. It's sort of an enthusiasm for Tobias Lear. Because the more you find out about George Washington secretary, the more you're like, 'Who is this guy? What's he doing?'

Mary Wigge

I love this letter that you chose, because it it's just another side of him another facet, but it was like, I didn't know you had this many sides to you. Okay.

Kathryn Gehred 

This is an episode of firsts. This is the first time that I've had a guest return to the podcast as a co host. It's also the first time we've had a letter written by a man, I think, wow. Usually we've we've had correspondence from women to a man. But this is our first letter from a man to a woman. So that's why I'm still counting it as women's correspondence, because this is very much not a letter that a man would write to another man. Do you agree, Mary?

Mary Wigge

Absolutely.

Kathryn Gehred

Alright, so, Mary, tell me a little bit about Tobias Lear.

Mary Wigge

Okay. So, Tobias Lear was born in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, he graduates from Oh, I should say that he was born in 1762. And then he goes to school at Harvard University,

Kathryn Gehred

Harvard boy.

Mary Wigge

And while he's still relatively young, I think use I think he is like around 24 or so he gets he's highly recommended by Benjamin Lincoln to George Washington, and he becomes George Washington's private secretary, recording secretary, and a tutor for Martha Washington's grandchildren. And then he just becomes a part of the Washington family for he joins them in the 1780s, and he just stays on with them until around. Oh, well, George Washington's death, even Martha's death.

Kathryn Gehred

Yeah.

Mary Wigge

Anyway, so he marries, he's married three times. He marries Mary Polly Long, and who is apparently like, in today's terminology, like a high school sweetheart, and they have one son, and then Mary Long dies in, oh God, like 1793, I think of yellow fever. 

Kathryn Gehred 

She's one of the early victims of the Philadelphia yellow fever epidemic, which comes up quite a bit in these letters.

Mary Wigge

Absolutely. And Martha mentions her death. And it's like, it's so tragic. And you know, poor Tobias Lear, and then stops that's about all I've ever learned about her death or anything about her for that matter. Anyway, but back to Tobias. So in 1795, he marries again, he marries Martha Washington's niece Fanny Bassett Washington, Lear. And unfortunately, she dies just like seven months after their marriage, and she does have what we think is tuberculosis. And so then he goes off, and he takes he's trying to really put some time and energy into his business ventures that are not successful. He does. He becomes president, I think through the recommendation, the strong recommendation of George Washington of the Potomac company, and that's from 1795 to 1799. And, and then after Martha's death, he marries another one of Martha Washington's nieces, Frances Fanny Dandridge Henley. 

Kathryn Gehred 

And so, so not just one of Martha Washington's nieces, too, and both of them named Fannie, which I think is important.

Mary Wigge

Not to confuse anyone or anything.

Kathryn Gehred 

Not to confuse anyone who's trying to write an identification of Fannie Lear as there's two of them. And they both the same husband and are related to Martha Washington the same way.

Mary Wigge

And there's really again, at least Fanny Bassett Washington had a bit more, a couple of letters that we have from her to Martha Washington, but there are none. From Fannie Henley, if I remember correctly.

Kathryn Gehred 

No, but but they're like Fannie Henley is kind of a big deal in early Washington. She shows up quite a bit in early DC society as sort of a widow in a nice house. And, she actually was good friends with uh

Mary Wigge

Dolly Madison.

Kathryn Gehred

She's concerned to Dolly Madison, and she shows up in a lot of these sort of like parlor politics type situations. So I think that's interesting, because, from our perspective, I know so much more about Francis Bassett Washington Lear, who, who is only married to for seven months, but the longer marriage and sort of the woman who kind of makes more of a historical impact is his second, the second Fanny.

Mary Wigge

Well, that would make sense because then like it's throughout the early 1800s, that he serves as a consular officer, I think under Thomas Jefferson.

Kathryn Gehred

Yeah.

Mary Wigge

Serves there in like Santo Domingo, which is now Haiti, and the Algiers. And it's in 1816, that he commits suicide at his house in Washington, DC.

Kathryn Gehred 

When you put his life like this, it sounds very tragic, and perhaps not like anything, that would be something to obsess over. But, I just think it's interesting that so we've got this guy, he gets attached to George Washington, like right out of college, he spends his whole life sort of as on the peripheries of George Washington, for the rest of George Washington's life anyway. He tries, I, he tries to marry into this fit, like he's repeatedly trying to marry into this family, like not just be part of the family household as a secretary, but to marry into it become part of the family, he gets a little bit in trouble with George Washington at one point for stealing money.

Mary Wigge

That is so great.

Kathryn Gehred

He accepts rent money that is supposed to be going to George Washington, and he just takes it himself. And, George Washington is not happy about that, as you might imagine. And this is right during the time, when the whole Tobias Lear company thing is not going really great for him. So, then he's goes back to like being a secretary, he has one of the best accounts of George Washington's death, his account of George Washington's final days is like one of the most frequently cited accounts of that. Right. Would you agree?

Mary Wigge

Very detailed, it's very well done. In fact, there's two of them, because

Kathryn Gehred

Oh, really?

Mary Wigge

Yeah. And it's confusing, because he writes one, I think it's the day later but he, he provides with greater detail in it, and then the one on the day of, I always get these confused, but it was like he wrote like a original with like, his initial like impressions and like, who was in the room when it happened and will end like, what happened with the two wills that George Washington like written and like, he has a great deal of detail and and though they are written nearly verbatim, it just, they're really rich and substantial. I mean, you can tell that like, he edited in some regard, like what he wanted to say,

Kathryn Gehred 

He knew this was going to be a big deal. That people were going to want to read. And then and so then, basically, somebody who kind of a failed businessman, he's been working as a secretary, he's got a little bit of a rocky relationship with George Washington, obviously, they still accepted him in his house, but then after that, he becomes this console. It's got to be purely because of his connection to George Washington, he has zero consular experience, and he is sent to Haiti at Santo Domingo is the or I don't know how to pronounce it as that as they pronounced it at that time. But, it's this is a very prickly, dangerous situation, and who is sent there is Tobias freakin Lear. I cannot imagine is a good fit for this situation, and I guess there's all sorts of people who are very knowledgeable about those early consoles, and a lot of these early diplomatic missions, like, are sort of aware of a lot of the drama that surrounds Tobias Lear with these trips, and then he comes back and still doesn't have any money and ends up committing suicide in his garden. So, I just feel like his whole life, me and my husband have decided would be a really good fictionalized movie directed by the Cohen Brothers, with this sort of tragic sad sec, white boy lead. But that might just be us. That might just be us. So this, the letter that we're reading today, come sometime before all of these Tobias Lear's fall from grace like this is Tobias Lear at his absolute peak. Um, the letter that we're reading is from April 20, 1790. It is. So, it's about one year into George Washington's presidency. And that first year of George Washington's presidency is a very, it's a New York, they're still living in New York at that time, the Capitol hasn't moved to Philadelphia yet. What I learned doing some research for this letter is that Tobias Lear sort of was working as Washington's proxy. Like if you wrote a letter to Washington, you would give it to Lear. And if Washington responded to that letter, Tobias Lear would deliver it. So, he is a little fancy man about town, delivering all these incredibly important letters, about the running, running the government to Congress, he's living in the presidential household. He's has a joking teasing relationship with Martha Washington, there's this great letter when he's trying to lure Martha Washington to move up to New York faster, because she doesn't want to come up like she's in Virginia. She does not want to move to New York for this presidency. She's mad that George Washington is even the President. And Tobias Lear writes this letter, that's like, I know you like seafood, this delicious, tasty lobsters and seafood in New York. If you had just come visit us, Martha Washington.

Mary Wigge

Yeah, I don't know. It may just be my interpretation. But I always like saw it as Martha was just being passive aggressive. And she knew that she had to get up to New York, but she was angry. I like Washington so much that she was going to take her sweet time to get up there.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yes! I agree with that take 100%, and Tobias Lear is just sort of joking with her. And you can see that he has this very close relationship with the family. So, he has been living in New York. But at this point, he is taking a break. He's going on a trip with Robert Lewis. Yes, who is Martha Washington's nephew, who is also working in the presidential household, but he is going on a trip back home to where he was his childhood home, I believe in in New Hampshire. He's visiting his mother. And he's this is when he's on his trip to propose to his childhood sweetheart, as a very describes, Polly or Mary. And he's writing a letter to Catharine Littlefield Greene, who is also another historical heavy hitter at this time. So Mary, can you tell me a little bit more about Catharine or as she's often called Kitty Greene?

Mary Wigge

Sure. Yeah, she has a lot of nicknames. There's a lot that goes by Katie, but we're gonna be calling her Kitty throughout this. So, she's born in Rhode Island in she marries General Nathaniel Greene, on, er, in 1774. So, she's very much involved in being in the Washington's circle, especially during the Revolutionary War, and especially during the military and cabinets. In fact, from a biography that I've read about her, it just, it sounds like she looks forward to these military encampments. It doesn't matter that there's a war going on. She's thrilled to get the, the social engagements and just being around others, but the reason I'm bringing that up is because this is how she gets all of her connections made. She grew up in a pretty small town. But, her aunt was a big influence in her life, Katherine Gray, who, coincidentally was a good friend of Benjamin Franklin. And, so after the war, she and Nathaniel Greene, they moved down to Mulberry Grove, which was a Georgia plantation, and it was about eight miles outside of Savannah. A couple of years, like after the war of Rome, like 1786, Nathaniel Greene dies of sunstroke, and he leaves Kitty, with five children with this huge plantation, and with a great deal of debt on her shoulders at this point. And, so above the by the point that she meets, I guess it's for the first time Tobias Lear in 1790?

Kathryn Gehred 

And must be.

Mary Wigge

I think she's going up there to petition for basically a huge reimbursement because Nathaniel Greene borrowed this money to pay to equip his Southern army for the war. And so, she just has a lot on her shoulders and she's in a place where she's still kind of getting acquainted with and she's far from home. Let's just say that. She's far from like, anybody like any like social cities and like any of her old social circles.

Kathryn Gehred

Okay, anyway, so

Mary Wigge

Let's say there's a couple of fascinating things about her. So there's at some point, I think it's right around. After her trip to New York, she engages Eli Whitney, who, you know, discovers the cotton gin, she actually first hires him to be a tutor for her children. And that ultimately doesn't really play out. He ends up just leasing part of her property, and that's where he discovers the cotton gin.

Kathryn Gehred 

Or invents the cotton gin.

Mary Wigge

That's right. Invents, invented cotton gin. And then a couple of years later, less is by like 1796, she marries her second husband, Phineas Miller, who was the when Nathaniel Greene was still alive, they originally hired him to be the tutor. But, he becomes something a bit more he becomes like a after Nathaniel Greene dies that is, so he becomes like a business advisor. There are some who think that he's her lover even, but they haven't gotten married yet. There's a lot of hearsay about what his role really is.

Kathryn Gehred 

I love the gossip. So because it helps, I think, to petition the government and get money for your massive debts that were left to you by your husband, when you are the pitiful widow of Nathaniel Greene, and not maybe someone who has just recently remarried, your child's tutor.

Mary Wigge

She knows like because of her experience going to all these wintering cabinets, she's knows like all of these great names now like Lafayette and the Knox's and Hamilton's and even like Anthony Way, there's so many friends from the Revolutionary War that actually come to our aid and like some of them are like, You got to send one of your sons over to France to like, stay with the Lafayette, you know, so he can get some schooling over there. There's a lot of people that come to her aid. And I'm curious if she married immediately after Nathanael Greene's death, if that would have been the same situation for her. Basically, I wish that these two individuals to both Tobias Lear and Kitty both had, had, like, maybe a documentary edition written for both of them.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah, that'd be that'd be helpful. Incredibly. So so there's a lot, a lot of conjecture, but the facts, the facts that we know are, Kitty Greene is in New York petitioning the government trying to get money because she is financially in a bad way. Now, as I mentioned earlier, I talked about her acting as this sort of starving widow, whatever. She had a lot of property in South Carolina, and I believe quite a few slaves as well. So this is one of those situations where it's like, I'm a poor slave holder, and a massive amount of debt. But so at the time that this letter is written, she has been visiting New York, she I know, she had dinner at the Presidential household, which I imagine is when she sort of made this sort of friendly acquaintance with Tobias Lear around this time. And, I also found a letter that she wrote just very shortly before this letter, that she writes to Alexander Hamilton, trying to get her brother a job in government. And I wanted to read this quote, because it's just such a parlor politics, a woman trying to get a family member job, all this slightly sort of seedy political stuff that's going on the very first year of George Washington's presidency. And, I like the way she phrases it, she's like, "surely it is not a crime to solicit a favor of one who is as eminent for the goodness of his heart, as he is celebrated for his abilities. And one two, who honors me by the appellation of friend," so and she's met Alexander Hamilton during the American Revolution, like they were all part of that social circle. So she really is friends with Alexander Hamilton. So she says, "Yet if it is not, why do I palpitate, why blush and condemn myself and at the same time, I am justified by my reason, and prompted by my affection to commit it. Could you know my feeling upon this occasion? I'm sure you would pardon me, I will suppose you do. And therefore proceed." And then she goes in and says, get my brother a job.

Mary Wigge

I think she just knew how to use, okay, I'm gonna use this word a lot. So bear with me. She She was playful in her choice of language, and suggestive. I actually wanted to share this quote with you that I found it just made me laugh out loud. That she writes to the executor of Nathaniel Greene's will, Jeremiah Wadsworth, and she's, she's just said that she's had to sell all her furniture because she's had to start paying for all these debts, and she's just fears of life of destitute like the living a destitute life essentially, you know, her starving children. She's asked, "Will you be so good as to see a little to it and one more favor I must beg you to procure me a cask of wine such as you think I can afford to drink? Don't laugh for I'm serious."

Kathryn Gehred

Oh, I love that.

Mary Wigge

Oh, it was like, she's having some hard times. So this is right. I think this is right before she goes up to New York. So yeah, I think she's feeling just a little desperate.

Kathryn Gehred 

Ah, so, so it's such an interesting time. To dig into the letter. So, we've been setting up the context for quite some time now. But hopefully you have some idea of what's going on here because it is important. So Tobias Lear and Catharine Littlefield Greene, are both going on a trip up north. So Tobias Lear is going to New Hampshire to propose to visit his family. And Kitty appears to be visiting her family in Rhode Island. This is also a very interesting time to be in Rhode Island, because it had not yet ratified the Constitution. In 1790, early 1790, Rhode Island was holding back from ratifying the constitution. It was getting a lot of news coverage, and actually, Tench Coxe had written an article in the Federal Gazette, pretending to be Nathaniel Green's ghost, scolding Rhode Island for not having ratified the Constitution yet. And, this is exactly the time that Kitty's going back to Rhode Island to visit her family, after visiting New York briefly to beg for money. So, she's visiting her family, and Tobias Lear is writing a letter to her, after they have been traveling together for a little while, but they parted ways at this point. And, he's just sort of writing to check in. Alright, so if you're ready, I'm gonna go ahead and read it. Is that okay Mary?

Mary Wigge

I am all ears.

Kathryn Gehred

"Tobias Lear to Catharine Littlefield Greene. Portsmouth, New Hampshire, April 20, 1790. You see, I am a man of my word, notwithstanding, I might be excused had I deviated from it, considering the business of my tour to this part of the country, which might naturally be supposed to engross all my attention. After leaving you at Newport, I took possession of your cabin, and slept soundly till we had got within a few miles of Providence. I had no interruption for the demon of playfulness left the vessel with you. from Providence to this place, I had a pleasant journey, as to the weather, and it is unnecessary for me to say how peculiarly pleasing it was on the other accounts. Upon my arrival, I had the happiness to find all my friends enjoying health, and as much happiness as commonly falls to the lot of mortals. The dear object of my affections received me with all that sincere and heartfelt pleasure that is known only to those who are acquainted with a virtuous and tender attachment. And on Thursday, next, I shall receive her hand. And if I do not enjoy as much matrimonial Felicity, as any human being has a right to expect, I shall give up all pretensions to calculation. We propose leaving this place for New York on the 10th of May, and shall in all probability, preceded thither by land for the country at that season will be very pleasant, and it would be highly gratifying to my dear girl to see as much of it as she could, however, we have not yet ultimately determined upon our route. But, if we should go by the way of Providence, we shall be in that place about the 16th of May. And in that case, you know how happy it would make us to find you there and to have your company to New York. I have mentioned that circumstance to Polly, and she promised herself much satisfaction in it, if we go by the way of Providence, I have told what and how good you are, and she already anticipates a great happiness in her acquaintance with you. I must beg of you not to put yourself to any inconvenience by waiting in Rhode Island for us longer than you intend to do, independent of that consideration. For as we are uncertain whether we shall be there or not, it would make us very unhappy to note that our friend had been delayed or disappointed by expecting us. At any rate, we shall be made happy in your society at New York. My colleague joins me in most cordial wishes for your health and happiness. Mr. Lewis is pleased with this tour, and as well, he desires to be particularly remembered. And I expect he will at any rate go on by land for the very idea of being roused from sleep by the operation of a cold bath is enough to deter most any person from putting himself in the way of it. I should have a guard and therefore have no fears of a second attack, but if that should happen, you might depend upon a punctual and hard payment as you received at that time. I have related the circumstance to my Polly and she has the assurance to say that I was a saucy fellow for making such payment. Adieu and believe me to be with a brotherly affection. Your sincere friend, Tobias Lear."

Mary Wigge

I don't even know where to begin with that. You do not end such a letter like that with with "a brotherly affection." It is more than brotherly affection. I don't know to what degree that is, but it's awkward.

Kathryn Gehred 

Like I'm always torn between the like eighteenth century men and women just wrote letters flirtlely to each other. And the "demon of playfulness left the ship when you left," something with being roused with cold water. What were they doing?

Mary Wigge

I don't know. It was like, Were you having like a fun like, a water balloon fight or something? Got a little. Yes, I agree with you. There is like a difference between, like how men and women corresponded with each other versus how men and men corresponded. But this something happened, and we're not gonna say it aloud. But I just want you to know that my future wife is informed now. So, I'm affirming myself as solely your brother.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yes! This is absolutely like a friendzone letter. Brotherly, a brotherly friendzone. But he's like, Hey, remember that time that we flirted like a whole lot? I'm married now. She knows about it. She's cool with it, and we're gonna be friends. But also, brotherly love.

Mary Wigge

Will you have you know, like, Polly is not cool with that. Like, she might be putting up a really great front. But...

Kathryn Gehred 

I would be if, if a man sent me a letter like this, I would be very irritated. 

Mary Wigge

If a man who was about to propose or had just proposed to me was telling me the stories of like, being playful on a boat,

Kathryn Gehred 

and saucy

Mary Wigge

saucy. I would not call him saucy fellow, I would give him the cold shoulder and consider maybe throwing them ring back at him that he had proposed me with.

Kathryn Gehred 

So it's interesting. He's twenty-eight. Okay, at this point, Polly is twenty. So, it's not it's not like one of the teenage brides that we've been seeing in some of these letters, but she's pretty young. And as they said, everybody calls them like sort of high school sweethearts. It's like high school, and he's like the college grad that's like, hanging out with a high school girl with at the time that they must have been courting. Right? So it is a little bit like the way he writes about her. I think you can tell that she's considerably younger, like the way he writes about my sweet girl Polly, and she looks forward to meeting you. And he's showing her the world right? Like he's the big New York, like, Secretary to the President swooping back into his hometown proposing like immediately to his childhood sweetheart, I It's interesting vibe that he's he's sort of a bubble. I think at this point of like, he's so cool. He's just got the girl to marry him, and he's about to go back to New York to like, hang out with the president again. And also flirting with this other Catharine Greene Lady. There's just a lot going. 

Mary Wigge

I mean, I agree with you. He's riding on his very high wave that he's on at that time in his life, and he he's a bit pompous about it. He must think that, you know, it must be a privilege to marry me, Polly is so lucky. 

Kathryn Gehred 

So, I've heard people describe this as sort of like a, like a honeymoon. Like, I don't think honeymoons were the thing necessarily back then, but this is sort of like they're newlyweds. They're taking a sort of a long shore back to New York. But can you imagine? It's your sort of quasi honeymoon. And we're going to finish it up by picking up this woman that my husband has just told me he has this weird, flirty prank relationship with, and Catharine Greene is thirty-five, at this point, so she's not like, I mean, she's got five kids, as you said, but like thirty-five year old confident, Catharine Littlefield Greene who's like trying to get some stuff done on this trip. Flirting with twenty-eight year old Tobias Lear who's like, anyway, if they if they stopped by Rhode Island, to pick her up so they can travel the rest of the way back to New York together. If I was Polly, I would not be happy about

Mary Wigge

No, but I mean, Kitty could, sorry Kitty, could probably like, pass it off, but she would be the third wheel. I mean, it would just be awkward.

Kathryn Gehred 

I wonder if that demon of playfulness would come back or if that would just sort of wither away in the presence of the new newlyweds.

Mary Wigge

Poor Polly. I wish I knew more about Polly. That's my...

Kathryn Gehred

Me too!

Mary Wigge

Yes, because from what I've gathered, she's young and a high school sweetheart. In so many terms.

Kathryn Gehred 

They married when she was twenty she dies when she's twenty-four. It's just it's pretty sad and...

Mary Wigge

It is tragic, but I mean, like there must be, I'd be I'd be curious if a Tobias Lear kept any of his letters with Polly.

Kathryn Gehred 

Yeah, let's again, let's make this collected letters have devised a yearbook?

Mary Wigge

Absolutely.

Kathryn Gehred

I want to close this conversation by talking about what the heck happened with this cold bath.

Mary Wigge

Telling a future wife about a playful game with another woman, and I was like, I'm skin crawling. It's cringe worthy. Yeah, I also wrote, This is terrible. But I imagine that Polly would want to scratch out either Tobias Lear's or Kitty's eyes out. Especially if all three of them started traveling together.

Kathryn Gehred 

They're not even married yet. Like, he's like, by the way. I've got this really cool lady friend who you're super good to like, one time one of us splashed the other one with cold water. When did this happen on the boat? Did this happen at the president's house? When did this happen? Because at first I was like, oh, maybe this was something between Robert Lewis and Tobias Lear. But then he says he, he explicitly says you might depend on a punctual and hard payment as you received at that time. So, Catharine must have somehow ducked by his lair in an ice cold water bath.

Mary Wigge

The way I saw it was like, he was sleeping, and she comes in and she, like, pours over a bucket of cold water on him. And I'm like, Well, that's one way to wake somebody.

Kathryn Gehred 

Were they super drunk? Was this like, was she waking up out of a hangover? I would like to know because

Mary Wigge

I know! This could not just just been like, oh, casual, just you know, some casual like cold water baths on the face. You don't do it, but what the other thing that okay, from the John and Janet Steadman biography on Katy or on Kitty Greene that there's one like segment or snippet of information that I got about Tobias and Kitty meeting, and it was at in New York in 1790. And, all they say is that he found himself captivated by her charm and intellect. And Katie was equally impressed with her new acquaintance.

Kathryn Gehred 

This is, yes, again, you got to get into those primary documents, because you read these secondary books and that everybody's great, everybody's this smart, intellectual, and respected everybody. They all got along, and then you read the letters and it's like, oh, no, they were splashing each other with cold water. And he's talking about her intellect. This is also somebody who he is partied with.

Mary Wigge

No kidding. It's it's also I mean, I love them because they make people human. And it's like, for better or for worse, like, you see, like, the good sides, the beard sides, the flat out horrible sides. And then you know, he's just like, awkward, awkward turtle scenes. What? Like what?

Kathryn Gehred 

There you have it, we have a rather goofy letter from an interesting time in the life of Tobias Lear and Catharine Greene, a very interesting time for both of them, like ships passing in the night, or rather, staying on one ship together, and at some point dunking each other in ice cold water. And, I just think this is a little interesting insight into that presidential household of 1790. 

Mary Wigge

Agreed. I think they knew how to play some practical jokes. 

Kathryn Gehred 

Well, uh Mary, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. Again, it is always a delight.

Mary Wigge

This was a pleasure. This is such a great letter. Thank you for letting me partake.

Kathryn Gehred 

I was so glad that you were interested. I found this letter and I sent it to Mary immediately because she's the only person that shares my Tobias Lear interest.

Mary Wigge

I'm so confused. I have a big question marks still over my head about this letter.

Kathryn Gehred 

Thank you so much.

Mary Wigge

Thank you.

Kathryn Gehred

All right, for my listeners, I will put citations in the show notes. I'll lead you to some of these other letters that may marry up in citing, we've got the two we've got the biography of Catharine Greene and the checkered career of Tobias Lear, which I think this will be the third time I've cited it. It's a great book.

Mary Wigge

It's fantastic.

Kathryn Gehred

I'll put that once again in the show notes for this one. And thank you so much for listening, and I am as ever, your most obedient and humble, servant. Thank you very much.