Kate Sinclaire: Adult Film Maker; Human Rights Advocate

Stuart Murray  0:00  
This podcast was recorded on the ancestral lands on Treaty One Territory, their traditional territory of the Anishinaabe, Cree, Oji-Cree, Dakota and the Dene peoples and on the homeland of the Métis nation.

Amanda Logan (Voiceover)  0:19  
They This is humans on rights, a podcast advocating for the education of human rights. Here's your host, Stuart Murray.

Stuart Murray  0:31  
Kate Sinclaire is an award winning adult film tour de force. She has been producing, directing and otherwise creating adult content for 15 years. Her focus has been on showcasing diverse experiences and sexualities and documenting the stories at the core of the human experience. She began her work in sex workers rights, activism and advocacy in 2014. Working with the sex workers of Winnipeg Action Coalition, and other community run groups in Canada and around the world. Her focus is in advocacy for sex workers rights in digital spaces, informed by regulation of sex work and physical space. Kate is the board chair at the sexuality education resource center of Manitoba an essential an essential, I should say resource for all Manitobans. She is currently starting her third and final year at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law. And I think that's where I have got you today. Kate Sinclair. Welcome to humans on rights.

Kate Sinclaire  1:32  
Yes, thank you very much. I'm here located in Ottawa, the unseeded ancestral lands at the Anishinaabe, and Algonquin peoples super excited to be with you here today. Thank you very much.

Stuart Murray  1:42  
Let's just start at the beginning of Kate Sinclair, what kinds of interests did you have when you were in Winnipeg growing up in school? And what sorts of hobbies did you have, or we'll get into what you're currently studying, but just as a person growing up in Winnipeg,

Kate Sinclaire  1:58  
yeah, just as a as a person growing up in the peg, I've really adore Winnipeg, but be very clear. Being an Ottawa has been tough being away from my home communities, but but for myself, I grew up, I spent my formative years, so to speak, in Transcona, which was super great there with my parents. And the kind of way that I got through all this, it's very interesting, because I would say, when I was a teenager, I was someone who was maybe even anti porn, that kind of thing I had kind of attitudes that, you know, is icky, and people who did it, were, you know, morally bankrupt. And I was raised very much by this kind of community notion and understanding that was really sex work negative actually, unfortunately. But the formative thing that actually happened was a, an ex partner of mine decided that he was going to share images of me from our relationship that we're not for public sharing, never sure if the reason exactly why but he made that executive decision. And, and I kind of sat back in that moment and realized what was happening there. So someone was exerting power over me to shame me for for being a sexual woman, like having any sexuality at all, trying to use the power of that societal narrative that people who women's especially who do sex are bad. And so it made me very much confront my own biases, and say, like, oh, actually, these narratives that I bought into are the ones that are empowering this guy to be awful. And then like, he realized, like, oh, actually, there are a lot of forces that are keeping women from living their full narratives. And then I kind of realized, like, oh, this goes for queer folks, and racialized folks. And this, this whole system we built just doesn't work. So just decided that I was going to live the life that I was going to live and find others who wanted to do the same. And so Winnipeg was a great place to do that in a lot of people really, were really hungry for it, and ready to have the conversations and talked about things in a positive way. That's how I got to where I am.

Stuart Murray  4:10  
Yeah, fantastic. And I'm sure people that are listening can relate because a lot of the issues relate or you talked about Kate, we're, you know, people who are in relationships, and for whatever reason, one party decides to do something that they think is going to harm, and it is very much harmful when they do something against somebody's collective nature, or will or however you describe it. And you know, your first reaction to that. I mean, I will come out how you're advocating and we're going to talk a lot about that. But what would you go through when you first discovered that? I mean, you're the fact you were in love with somebody, I assume that that was a very good relationships when somebody kind of does a pivot and does something that to you. I mean, what's your first reaction and perhaps maybe explain sort of how some of your friends reacted to what it is that were you were going through? The

Kate Sinclaire  4:57  
interesting thing there of like, assuming that that things were great, because I don't think they were in hindsight, I think that there was a lot of kind of ownership attitudes, and that sort of thing of like what someone should be doing. As a young woman, there were a lot of people I dated who had a lot of opinions about, because I'm, I'll use this as an example, I'm five foot 10. Right? So I'm pretty tall. And there have been partners with who wouldn't let me wear high heels, because they didn't think that. And this was that kind of that kind of, you know, elements of that throughout. And so I think that a lot of it actually ties back to ownership. And I did think it was a great relationship at the time. But in hindsight, you see kind of these like, oh, maybe there were actually red flags all throughout this. But you know, in this idea of love, and, and not to seem too cynical, I have been married for 10 years now. And I realize like, oh, maybe things weren't as positive as I thought they were. And it's, it's interesting to go back and see that, but my friends were really excellent. I've always made a point of surrounding myself with the best people. And people were really supportive and realize that like, Hey, someone is doing this to like, it wasn't your fault. How can we support you? How could How can we get you through this. And so as I did kind of, take some recourse against what was happening, my friends were very much there at my side, making sure that I knew that I was supported no matter what. And they knew, like, we all knew we were dating people and that we all had sexual lives. And to to picture any of our other friends getting put in this situation was just like, of course, you would stand by your house.

Stuart Murray  6:31  
So then Kate, from that perspective, when you you now look at the fact that you're an in Ottawa, and you're studying law, and you've been a tremendous advocate for sex workers. And let me just stop there just for people are listening I we chatted a bit offline on this. But when we talk about human beings who are in the sexual world, if I could just say that I just How would you like me to? Or how should we refer respectfully to people who are in this industry and are professionals? Yeah, of

Kate Sinclaire  7:00  
course. So folks who are in the industry and professionals, this is work, right? conceptual work under capitalism. So would we all choose to wake up and go and do our day jobs if we didn't have to? Most of us? Probably not, but a lot of people do. So sex workers are sex workers. They're people who are consensually. Working in the adult industry. There are folks who use other terms for sex work specific to the type of work they do. Sometimes, like I'm called a pornographer. Sometimes I say I work in adult film depends on on the crowd I'm sliding through at the moment. Some folks who work in person called say that they engage in prostitution, that is their choice in word choice, but very few people would use that publicly. So right now, the best word to words to use are mostly sex worker, there are sex worker rights days, for example, called, like, international horas. De. And I think it's really interesting when we're talking about specifically the word whore, that's a word that people are reclaiming for themselves, because generally, society will will label books with that word, and use it in a recent really disempowering way. So it is, is or can be empowering for some folks to use those words back in a way that they own them and say, Yes, I am, or whatever. And that's my choice. But for I think, the purposes of today in today's Tech sex workers, the best way to go,

Stuart Murray  8:23  
perfect. Okay, Kate, thank you so much for that. Appreciate, appreciate that explanation. So one of the things that you mentioned, through your personal experience that you had, that you found that as you started to look at the issue around sex workers, I think you said that you found that Winnipeg because you're a proud Winnipeg, or was sort of hungry for that environment. Can you just kind of dial in and a little bit and sort of explain how did you discover that? What do you mean by Winnipeg was kind of hungry for that experience, please,

Kate Sinclaire  8:53  
as the winner picker, I know that we like to lay down how great our city is, and how great our people are. We kind of think of the big cities as where everything happens. And so I was someone who very much did not want to just move to Toronto and do this, or move to Montreal and do this. I was like, No, I'm from Winnipeg. This is where the issues are happening. Like this is where the incident that started at all happen. So it makes sense that I would keep things going here and so at Pier isn't there. So it just made sense to talk to people in Winnipeg and give them that space to actually explore things without having to go to Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, somewhere like that. And, and I think the fact that I stuck around was really important to a lot of people that they could find themselves in in Winnipeg. I think Winnipeg has always been very creative, and very activist driven, very grassroots. So in a way it doesn't surprise me at all like when I've gone around the world to orange shows and film festivals and things like that A, I say I'm from Canada, everyone assumes Toronto, I have to correct them. And I say no, actually, I'm from Winnipeg, and I don't know where it is. So I show them and they're like, Wow, really in a in a small you know, Western quote unquote place like that. And then I get to, you know, take them to school and tell them all about how great Winnipeg actually is. And the the cool, creative things that we all do. So yeah, couldn't have happened in a better place for me. Fantastic.

Stuart Murray  10:26  
I agree. You know, when you think about things on the, on the culture side, the music, you know, the filming that goes on here, the the it's just really I think we punch, you know, if I can use that term punch way above our weight in terms of how creative we are here. And I agree with you, Winnipeg is is spectacularly a wonderful place to live. What would have gone into the process when you said, You know what, I am actually going to make a movie, an adult film around this, how did you go about starting that process that allows you to kind of just launch your career? And then I want to ask you that question. But I want to sort of come and you know, theme it all around the issue around the rights, the human rights of people that are in the sex trade.

Kate Sinclaire  11:10  
So to start out, I initially started doing photography, because back in, I think it was 2007, or eight or something like that, when I started out, it was really hard to host streaming videos on the internet. So my websites were primarily photo based. And that's that continued. That was true stamps.com, my main site, there was very much body positivity focused and focused on, you know, people displaying who they were, how they wanted to represent themselves. And then, at a certain point, a few of the models involved with that website, kind of asked me because we did have about, I think 4040 Odd folks we were working with at the time, which was wonderful plus than a team of doctors and hair and makeup folks, we had such an amazing team together at the time. And and yeah, one of the models said like, oh, actually, you know, I know, we just do nude photography, but I'd like to do more. And I kind of sat back to myself and thought, Okay, well, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. If we're going to shoot sex scenes, if we're going to do explicit things, then I don't think it belongs on Cherry stems like, I think I need to start something new. So we started up a branch called sin A Sinclair, which is the the moving picture version. And by then, you know, bandwidth was much easier to come by, we could we could host everything much more easily. And it was a natural transition, we really the the safety that we created on set on through to standards, like the way that we learned to make sure that folks could consent to everything that was going on, that they were at that they were in control creatively of the set that really naturally informed how I made films. So filmmaking, what I tend to do is more of a documentary style. I don't use much narrative. And I specifically I don't put out calls to look for folks, I let folks approach me because enough people know kind of who I am that they'll you know, apply and bring, bring forward their own stories, basically. And then my job is just to make sure that we capture it in the most realistic way we can, understanding that as soon as you turn on a camera, everything is performative. But but we very much try to make sure that folks are in charge of their own narrative, like I'm not showing up to set just telling everyone what I think they should do. They're very much bringing their own sexualities, stories and experiences and even that specific days, stories and experiences,

Stuart Murray  13:41  
two sets. Yeah. And then let's look at that again. Because, you know, once you start to get into filming and talking to different people, I mean, obviously there's legalities involved, there's financial, you know, sort of issues, you're paying to different people. So there's so now we're in a working environment. So how does it work, Kate with respect to employment, equity in terms of, you know, people being paid, and then from time to time, you're going to get people that will be from a regulation standpoint, somebody will be trying to sort of come in, and perhaps put some regulations upon you, because their views of what you're doing are potentially, as you said earlier on, they look at this as something that's immoral, that's not right. And so therefore, we're going to try and shut you down. How did you sort of combat that at the very beginning because you clearly have established a very, very successful track record.

Kate Sinclaire  14:30  
So I think it's interesting because people do comment that oh, we need to regulate this industry because it's out of control. The industry is regulated out of control already. It's It's absurd. So I'd like to talk about this actually. It's it's called financial discrimination is something that we experience a lot in the sex work world. To be clear sex work includes folks who see clients in person then also people who work in say strip clubs, and then folks who work in porn. RFP like I do. So under that whole sex work umbrella. the pornography industry, while it is legal, it is protected expression under the charter, this actually exists. It is incredibly regulated and mostly by private financial institutions, which is very interesting. So I, when I started at my website, this was my hardest thing. First of all the banks would not touch me, to give me any startup loans, despite having a business plan and established systems that I was going to follow, there was to be no access to capital or credit cards or that kind of thing. So I had to do it all on my own, which is very interesting. I'm not someone who came from a lot of money. So I worked on the site, I held a job at virail, which was really fun. But it paid for everything that I was, was starting up to do. And then you get into actually trying to make money. So you need to get money, which means you need to process credit cards, because that's how that's the currency of the internet. So there's essentially one company that will work with smaller adult producers, and they're an American company based in Arizona. And we pay a 14% fee per transaction, just to be able to process credit cards. So every, every dollar I make on one of these websites, I'm only getting back to 86% of that, plus annual fees, which just last week actually just doubled for no reason, except that visa said, Oh, you're high risk. So 1000s of dollars per year plus 14%, were a regular merchant save, working on something like square or other other credit card processing things or a regular merchant account will pay between three and 5%. So that's already we have this tax that has begun, it's because quote, unquote, the high risk industry, they say, so my websites there, you know, focused on feminist and queer and ethically made content. I've never had a chargeback, in the 15 years I've been working, but it's still technically considered high risk, because it's all lumped in.

Stuart Murray  17:15  
So let me just interrupt you for one second there. Because what I guess I wanted to get a sense of is when you're looking at financing, I mean, you're a filmmaker, you know, I mean, you happen to very openly say I'm an adult filmmaker. But if you just approach people and sort of say it, I'm in the film business, like that's what I do, because that's what you do. So if you went into somebody to, you know, an institution say, I'm a, I'm a director, and I have a production company, and I make films, here's my business plan, and I'm here to apply for money. Did you feel obligated? Or was there an issue that came forward that all of a sudden, you had to put the word adult in front of filmmaker.

Kate Sinclaire  17:52  
So for me, the reason that I would put adult in front of filmmaker is because when you try to hide it, when you just say I'm a filmmaker, because to me, it is I agree with you, it is just filmmaking? You know, we've seen a lot of things come out of the mainstream film industry that are, you know, horrific conditions on set. We've seen all that that exists, right? And so the fact that adult is treated as this like, oh, no, nope, that's necessarily bad is very interesting to get into that moral judgment that starts there. So I, I did disclose that this was the kind of work that I would be doing, because I've seen other companies, other folks who didn't disclose, and then sure you get everything, you get these accounts, you get set up, but when someone finds out, then the whole account gets shut down, and money disappears, and you're just left completely high and dry, even, even if you've made profit, basically. So so it was a risk that I was like, I'm just gonna go in and be honest, and, and yeah, penalized for being honest, which is very interesting, again, because this just encourages folks who aren't on the up and up to, to get financing to go ahead, folks who are maybe being a little bit shady about it. And I don't begrudge anyone who works in the industry and has to be a bit false about some information, because this is just the only way to get it done. But then we have to think about that what we're encouraging as a society, when we make those kinds of decisions and encourage lack of transparency, where are where are we putting sex workers, when they have to work with companies that maybe can't be honest about the

Stuart Murray  19:39  
work that they do? I know that Canada and there's a lot of tax credits that go into the film industry because they're trying to promote it because they look at the number of people that it employs and you know what it does for the economy of the of the local community and ticket you say in Winnipeg. That clearly is not the issue or the situation for somebody who is An adult filmmaker, you don't have access to any of those credits?

Kate Sinclaire  20:03  
Not necessarily No. They're some of them have rules. Some of them have less flexible rules. They did a lot of work around the Bill C 11. Last year, which is the new online Broadcasting Act, basically, that will govern streaming content on the internet like it would on the television. And so it was really, really interesting to kind of see all these parallels and say, like, Okay, well, who can access these grants? Who can like, can I go to telephone Can I go to, and a lot of places don't actually stipulate that you can't be making adult. My, for example, my films were five television contracts for them in Canada, the US and Europe, and especially Canada, because we have CRTC, minimums for Canadian produced adult content. So it's very interesting to on the one hand, be required by law, that we need a certain percentage of adults film, but also these companies can't access funding, especially independent, women run, query run that sort of thing. Companies will have a lot harder time getting funded. It's very fascinating.

Stuart Murray  21:12  
It is because as I said, you know, when you look at it, you are a film producer, you're in the production company, you're creating content. It just so happens to have an adult wherever the front of it. And so just let me just pause for one second Kayden say congratulations on beating down all those barriers, to be as successful as you have been, and continue to advocate on behalf of this, I think that is something that is worth repeating. Because I just think that people that are in the work of advocacy around human rights, it's a lot of tough slogging, and it's a lot of tough work. And, and, you know, the part, I guess that always surprises me about it, when I talk to people on this podcast, Kate, is that the inability for people to really recognize when you're talking about issues that these are all about people, humans, human beings, and, you know, the discrimination that comes that is just sort of full force full on. And, uh, you have to sort of stop and say, Why, why, why is it in this day and age and 2024? Are we having these kind of conversations? And I guess, at one point, you know, look at where we've come from, and where we are today, I mean, miles to go, maybe, but you know, the fact that you've been able to advocate, and there is, you know, the sex workers of Winnipeg Action Coalition that you've been involved in, and some of those other areas of advocacy, take a moment and say, Man, you know, look at where we started, look where we are lots to do, but you've you've seen some, some breakthroughs, I'm sure,

Kate Sinclaire  22:40  
yes. And thank you. That's the kind words that it is troublesome when you're when you're deep in it when you're deep in the advocacy because you're seeing everything that's potentially coming down the tubes, right? For myself, in the industry, I see a lot of prohibition and censorship laws coming down the tubes. We're seeing them, especially in the United States, and they're very queer and trans targeted. And you're seeing folks use our industry as kind of a tool to suppress other people's voices saying like, Oh, well, I think porn is morally wrong and bad. So we're going to label other people's identities as porn and stuff like that. So So I mean, I thank you very much. It is, it is a congratulations. We have seen so much and there has been so much change. But when you're deep in that activism and advocacy you very much, you can't you almost can't sit down and take a little break to appreciate it. Because there's there's always something new coming that you got to try to direct your attention to.

Stuart Murray  23:38  
Are you still fairly active in your projects? Whether it's Cindy Sinclair, which is your your video site, or cherry stem.com? Are you still fairly active in those areas while you're studying law?

Kate Sinclaire  23:49  
Reasonably, I haven't been able to make films lately, because that law school turns out, very busy. They weren't joking when they say that it's hard, but, but it's a great challenge. And I found ways to engage in kind of the adult film world from the law perspective. And that was kind of the point of coming here and doing that. But I haven't been able to produce as much film, which is too bad. Hopefully I can get back to it someday. Because it is just joyous. I do have two films that I still have to release and take on their film festival tours. I'm hoping I can kind of polish those up this summer and get back to it.

Stuart Murray  24:30  
Are there a lot of film festivals a worldwide that focus on adult content?

Kate Sinclaire  24:35  
There absolutely are. It's wonderful. There used to be one in Toronto called initially a feminist porn awards, and then it changed to the Toronto International Film Festival. And then it's just you know, the folks who ran it burned out because advocacy is a lot of work and even just even just running an award show is advocacy in this industry. But some of the bigger ones includes the porn field. festival in Berlin, Germany, which is wonderful than there's a couple in Spain, and Italy. There's also some in South America, Australia, the San Francisco porn film festival in America. And there's a couple of New York as well, there, there are so many. And the wonderful thing about these is actually getting everyone in the industry together and talking to each other. It's, you know, producers, directors, and also performers and camera people, getting everyone in the same room to talk about workers rights, for example. That's one of the most important things. And that's why these sorts of festivals are essential. I think it's really interesting when we talk about detractors, of people who maybe think the whole industry should be just shut down. What they would want to see is these kinds of spaces shut down. And again, when we're thinking about what that does, is it just makes it so that folks don't have the space to get together and talk about REITs. It makes it so that folks who are maybe doing things, again, a little on the down low, can do so without worrying that they're performers will get to get together and talk about unionizing or something like that, which we do in these spaces. We, we use it as a time to come together and talk about like, what is an ethical practice? What does it look like? And so it's it's really interesting that in an effort to quote unquote, stop exploitation, that some groups will actually create the space where exploitation can happen. So Kate,

Stuart Murray  26:34  
when you've traveled around the world, as you have Azura country a place that you would say, the, you know, they've got a great model that Canada should emulate, or we could learn from them.

Kate Sinclaire  26:45  
Well, it's interesting, because in most well, everywhere that I'm going to these film festivals, pornography tends to be legal, it's illegal in some countries, but places like Canada, Germany, other places, it is fully legal, worthy, because again, the way that we regulate digital spaces largely informed by the way that we regulate physical space, so physical space sex workers. It's illegal in a lot of countries. But I think the place that we should look to that is doing really well is New Zealand, who have gotten for a complete decriminalization model. And I think folks might get a little nervous around the word decriminalization. So to explain what it means is actually the removal of all criminal pellon penalties and laws around sex work itself. So because some folks get kind of mixed up between sex work and like human trafficking, for example, we especially in the work that I've done in sex worker rights advocacy, we want to be very clear, we mean, consensual sex work, no criminalization of that was like holding someone's passport holding someone against their will actual human trafficking laws, those remain in place, because that's illegal stuff, right. But in Canada, for example, we have the protecting communities and exploited Persons Act, that criminalizes the purchase of sexual services from in person sex workers, which actually then winds up criminalizing workers themselves through various provisions like on advertising, and basically sharing spaces living on income that comes in from sex work. So all of these laws actually then inform the way that we look at people who do adult work in the digital spaces. So I think looking at New Zealand, who I want to be clear, decriminalized sex work in 2003, the country has not burned to the ground, you know, it just continued, measurably situations of exploitation have gone down access to health care, and essential services for sex workers has increased, all the measurables are on the side of human rights being supported. When you decriminalize, it's when things are criminalized, that folks again, have to be false about things and hide things, and then we create space for exploitation. So I think very much looking at the way that New Zealand does things overall, is a great way to move forward.

Stuart Murray  29:17  
In this particular industry. I think when you talk about decriminalization, you know, in many ways, we went through a lot of that conversation around cannabis. And I think part of the is the misunderstanding of the term of what it actually means. And I think that, you know, when somebody said that we want to decriminalize this whole sex trade, I do think that there will be people that you know, whether it's through I mean, it's real life, so I get it the human trafficking thing, which is tragic, but I think people get a sense that, you know, the, it's that kind of that notion that when you know, people talked about smoking marijuana that it was an automatic free lane to hard drug drug use and so you or stop it there. And so it's just, you know, one of the things that I know you speak a lot about is media literacy around this issue and boat comprehensive sex education, how can we create a better platform for those conversations to take place for supporting what you're trying to do?

Kate Sinclaire  30:16  
I do a lot of sessions on media literacy, specifically, because we, we often don't talk about porn. We don't talk about how it's available. And like, young people are viewing it, right. We this is this is a big topic of conversation. Today, it's being labeled a public health crisis, which is probably overstating, there's plenty of research that, that shows that young people, especially young women, and girls, this is some great research out of the University of Ottawa from Professor Jane Bailey, who has found that young women and girls are not actually that concerned about access to adults, materials, or pornography, they're more concerned about privacy, and all of the solutions that we're bringing forward. age verification, that sort of thing, puts users privacy at huge risk. And so what we're doing as a society, in our panic, to not talk about pornography at all, is putting the thing that young people are actually concerned about at risk, which is kind of like tying ourselves up into knots just to avoid saying the porn exists. So porn literacy, I view it, just like you said before, that this is media, this is filmmaking. It's what I like to say it's just film with sex. And and, and so the nice thing is that we can talk about that medium, in really age appropriate ways. So, you know, talking about media literacy to young people in schools doesn't have to be talking about porn. I shouldn't, when we're when we're talking about young young people, but it can be talking about you know, how television is made, that there are cameras, these people are paid like, this is what a script looks like, breaking down what's called perceived realism. There's plenty of young people who think Yeah, like that, that stunt driver is real. And then you see at the bottom of the commercial, like professional driver, closed course, right? Like, that's, that's regulation, actually. And so. So it's very, it's very interesting to see that we have that resistance to getting to the point where we can even talk about porn, because the research shows that if you give an educational pre or debriefing to say, Oh, you've seen this pornographic film, it doesn't represent the way that everyone likes to have sex. And these, these are performers, that breaks down how real people perceive it to be, it takes literally a minute. And we're so resistant to it. So if we actually want to address harms, we take that harm reduction approach rather than blanket censorship where the harder to keep happening, but we can sweep it under the rug to pretend it's not happening. Right.

Stuart Murray  32:57  
And so Kate, on that, when the protection of communities and exploited Persons Act comes forward, and you know, that allows people with like, with your background, your advocacy to go in and speak to that bill, tell me what that experience is like? And do you really feel that you're getting the proper opportunity to explain? Or is it more of a window dressing exercise, because there's an understanding that, that, really, they're focused more on the issue of exploitation. And so they feel that this is the only way to by bringing in regulation is the only way to stop that. But in fact, as you say, it's the reverse, right, that it's the whole reverse process. So maybe just speak a little bit to going before a House of Commons committee that's talking about PC EPA,

Kate Sinclaire  33:50  
that actually passed in 2014. We were 10 years and under those laws, that's that regulates physical space, sex work, and the buying and selling of sex. And so it's been going through review, I think it was about two years ago, a member of SWAC went and did this that spoke to House of Commons committee on how this lopsided criminalization model just continues the exploitation it doesn't stop anything. It just makes people hide more hide from criminalization because no one wants to go to prison for working. So it has been a very big challenge. I've experienced the same for myself. There was this study going on at the FE committee at Parliament. There was a study on PornHub and I am someone who, you know, as an independent filmmaker, also did not like Pornhub to was you know, there was a lot of stealing of our content and then they would list it well, you know, uploaders with listed, didn't love it. And so I did want to appear at this committee study. I submitted briefs it was specifically centered around people who have experienced what's called revenge porn or non consensual image sharing. And I was like, Okay, well, I've experienced that. And I'm coming at it from this lens. And it was, it was actually almost soul crushing, I would describe the experience as I was trying to appear in one of these committees. And then hats, meeting briefs, detailing my experience and having the final product of that, like the final report that came out of that study. Thank all the victims who, you know, shared their stories, either as witnesses or in their briefs, and then thanked the five people who did and detailed their stories. And I went, Oh, my gosh, my story is not in there. I was one of those people, but I'm not that kind of victim, you know, like, I'm not someone who then decided that, oh, this is sex work spot. I was someone who realized, oh, no, the way we treat sex workers is the problem here. And that view wasn't even welcomed at all, which was, was crushing, which then made me come to law school. And I looked around the room and saw who did get to participate. And it was all, you know, people represented by high priced lawyers. So I thought, I'll go be a lawyer. But it is continued, as we move forward with this private member's bill called SB 210, which is protecting young persons from pornography, trying to ensure that sex worker voices come forward, and that we can work on a harm reduction approach, rather than blanket censorship that we notice that what

Stuart Murray  36:31  
if somebody were to say, so, you talk a lot about harm reduction, Kate Sinclair, what does harm reduction mean, in that industry? For

Kate Sinclaire  36:40  
myself, when I think about working, I think about access to worker protections. I think about you know, if someone has a bad day at work, where can they go? If someone has a stalker, who is interrupting them, because this is a bit of an aside, the my credit card processing abilities are contingent upon me publishing the address at which all of my records are kept so that they can be seized by the police at any time, which as an independent producer, you then have to basically publish your address, which is where to find you. And so I have done things, but I've had moments where I've had to call the police because someone is messaging me saying, I'm in your building. I've like, I'm trying to find the room that you're in, like this kind of thing. And police have responded that I chose a risky career. And this is what I have asked for. So it's, it's the sort of thing where I think about harm reduction, like wouldn't it be wonderful if sex workers instead of having to publish them at the address where they can be physically located? Because most workers do not have to do that? And then being told that, hey, you picked a risky career, this is your own fault like this? Is this victim blaming cycle? Like if, if all people in sex work are all exploited? If that's the idea, then why also, do you not help anyone. But also, when you help them, it's criminalizing and putting them in jail. So it like it's it doesn't make any sense. So when I talk about harm reduction, I talk about workers rights. And I talk about making sure that there are supports making sure that if someone doesn't get paid, there's a way to get that money. It was only this past. So it was July 2023, I believe it was that finally a sex worker won in small claims court when a client walked out without pay. That was the first time in Canadian history, because we've been so reluctant to even recognize sex workers work, that that can be considered rape. When someone you've agreed that there's going to be a payment at the end of the service, and then that person walks out on the payment. That's no longer consensual, right? But our system was not supporting people like that, because it didn't even recognize the work. So I think that's very central to my harm reduction is just workers rights. Can

Stuart Murray  39:03  
I assume, Kate, when you graduate as a lawyer from the University of Ottawa, that you're going to get involved in the legal advocacy angle for what you're working on? Is that something you are considering? Or is that are you going in a different direction?

Kate Sinclaire  39:17  
No, I think I think I'm too, I'm too set in my ways to ever really leave it behind. I am very excited to do a lot more research next year and ideally, publish a few more things that can be shared more widely and used by communities. I'm very, very big on making sure that sex workers in candidate have a voice, especially those for myself in the kind of online world. So I don't think I'm ever going to put that away. I'm very much excited to engage more with this new set of keys basically that I've got to tell open some more doors.

Stuart Murray  39:55  
Is there something for somebody who is either wanting to get it involved or has been kind of knew to be coming as such worker, that they have the avenues or the ability or the information to find out what their rights are. I

Kate Sinclaire  40:11  
think this is somewhere that there's a lot of failure there, because there's so many groups out there who who only want to give assistance if you're going to if you're leaving. And that, you know, if you're going to choose to stay in it, then you're on your own, because just very interesting because technically, they're not even able to choose whatever. But, but that speaks to the framing of the issue that if there are so many groups that don't even want to help, it's saying you don't fundamentally respect this person's decisions, you don't think that they're deserving of rights until they follow the way that you think about sex. It's very interesting. So I know in Winnipeg, there has been a group called Share. It's a program that operated out of the west end of the city. And unfortunately, it is run out of funding as of a few months ago, but it was a safe, safe space that sex workers could go to just you know, do laundry, have a shower, eat a meal together, connecting community, work towards maybe working in advocacy, if they want, but also just have a nice, comfortable night together, it's sadly lost funding. Sex workers are going to pick Action Coalition or SWAC, head alert hand in running it. And it's, it's a shame like we would love to find a new funding source for that, basically. But also, if someone is looking to actually engage in activism and advocacy in Winnipeg, SWAC is a great choice. Specifically works with a sex workers and allies. So if this is maybe your first time, you're just learning, I would recommend cracking into some articles, some books, I know, I've attached some, some

Stuart Murray  41:56  
resources. Yes. And I'll put those into the notes for sure. Thank you for that. And says,

Kate Sinclaire  42:00  
so kind of started attending rallies started attending events that that sex workers, Winnipeg Action Coalition, and others put on, I know, the women's legal education Action Fund, or women's leaf of Manitoba, are starting to put some more activism and advocacy for sex workers together, that's another avenue to get involved. But really starting the education process, so that you know, so you know how to respond. My favorite activism is actually at the micro level, where you now know these things, you know, some things about sex worker rights, and then over dinner, you know, someone says something kind of inappropriate, we kind of say like, oh, actually, I had I thought of it this new way. Maybe have you thought of it that way? I think that is activism. And so if folks can start living their values in their day to day lives, that's a great way to get involved. Yeah,

Stuart Murray  42:54  
for sure. I want to ask you one other question before we sort of just talk a little bit about your your role as the chair of the Sexuality Education Resource Center, Manitoba. You mentioned the fact that there's resources for women, they're meant men also, but they want to leave the sex trade. And so there's resources, financial resources to help them there. For those that look at it, and say, No, we need to mitigate that. And one way to mitigate that is to get those people out of that profession. Where do you think that conversation has kind of gone off the rails, I

Kate Sinclaire  43:28  
think that conversation has gone off the rails in that some folks again, don't even view the industry as legitimate. And the common thread that we all have is that we want to end exploitation, like sex workers and sales as well, like, we don't want to see exploitation either. But I think that another side of the argument insists that everything that we do, like everything that I do, even though again, I'm fighting for workers rights, I'm fighting for queer storytelling, I'm fighting for Office authenticity, body representation, there have been folks who have told me that what I do is violent. And so I really, really hope that some folks can see through and see that, like, exploitation is the thing that we want to address predatory labor practices are the things that we want to address. It's, you know, when we're shopping at the grocery store, and we find out that those tomatoes were picked by slave labor, because that actually is in all of our Loblaws stores. You know, when we find that out, we don't close the store, we make people encourage better working practices,

Stuart Murray  44:31  
you are creating an economic opportunity for people as such workers to thrive to grow to, to do something that they want to do. I mean, it's their choice. They want to do it. It's it's work. I mean, as you say, it's it's work. It's just in a very specific industry. And just trying to get that sense of people that look at that and sort of say, No, we need to have a conversation with you because we think we can get you out of that industry. And we can set you up to maybe work into derail for example, you know, but you know, that whole positioning that This is wrong, and you have to understand it's wrong. And so we're going to make it right. And again, somebody who is really not even listening to what some individual may want to go and say, You're not listening to me, I'm, this is my work versus saying, you know, I want out.

Kate Sinclaire  45:15  
Yes. And so, again, I think it's important that we look at the organizations who are getting people out, quote, unquote, a lot of these organizations don't actually provide services, they will use the story of people who have gotten out, there are very few services actually available to get people out, it can often come off of more as more of a moral kind of driven thing where it's like, okay, well, we got people out, did we, and now look, now they're working 60 hours at a minimum wage job making half what they did in sex work, where's the oppression there, right. And so as, as someone who works in the industry, and is trying to fight for, for rights for people, I'm very cognizant of, of every step of the way of trying to make sure that even the industry remains low barrier to entry. For example, making sure that when we regulate, I think, because I'm not against certain regulations, like, there are ways to regulate that are creative, that don't involve criminalization. So making sure that regulations don't end up making sure that you need a passport, because some people can't hold passports, making sure that folks who need access to cash can have it, making sure that we don't end up regulating it to a space where only a select few can actually do it. Because then again, people who need cash fast will end up still going to places that are going to expose them to some exploitation perhaps. So

Stuart Murray  46:50  
yeah. And as an industry, I mean, as somebody who produces content, which you do you follow the same rules as any other employer, you play unemployment insurance, I mean, you're, you know, cppi, you've got all of those sorts of elements that are part of what it is that you do. Well.

Kate Sinclaire  47:05  
So what I do is contract work largely with folks on contracts. So the way that I actually navigate things, in terms of pay is, first of all, we have our contracts, we have everything, we have an agreed upon rate. And I actually pay that rate upfront on work day. This is this is unique to me. I know that pretty much no other industry does it. No other jobs, films don't do it. But what I'm doing there is acknowledging my power in the, in this whole structure, that I am someone who is, you know, closed behind the camera, I'm putting very, very little risk personally out there except financial, where as I've heard stories from some sets where, you know, folks will agree to do certain performances, they'll agree to do certain acts. And then as they get close to the end, or would they think a director might say, Oh, actually, I know, you said you wouldn't do this act. But maybe you could, we'll just make sure you get paid, and use that use that power as a way to get performance out of people that they didn't agree to. So to avoid any kind of coercion that I could, you know, we're all humans. So if that happened to happen, I don't think I would do that personally, but, but you never know, when you accidentally something. So to get rid of that, what I do is just pay people up front. So if I screw up as a director, they're free to walk out the door, and they got paid. And, and you know, like I can, it's amazing, like no other industry does this, right? Like you don't show up to your fast food shift and get your money upfront in advance. Right? Yeah. And you don't have to have your virail or to be a lawyer and to you don't get it up ahead. And so the fact that people like us have to jump through hoops like that, just to prove that we're legitimate. It's it's interesting, but it's a way to acknowledge the power.

Stuart Murray  49:05  
Yeah, well, once again, you know, congratulations on the career path that you have chosen and the success that you've had and the advocacy that you've been involved in. You're the chair of the sexuality education resource center of Manitoba. Why is that an important resource for Manitoba? Yes,

Kate Sinclaire  49:23  
so sexuality education is the core of existing and comprehensive sexuality, education, making sure that folks actually have the tools and the knowledge to navigate their lives, both sexual lives and, you know, vanilla everyday interactions, making sure that people understand consent, making sure that folks who are from the whole rainbow of sexualities and identities can feel welcomed and informed. When we look at outcomes for sexuality education. Oh, my gosh, everything is better. When we When we educate young people, especially but and then also at all ages, about sexuality, and unfortunately, there's often a lot of pushback, that folks don't want people to even hear about it. But we know from the research that's, you know, silencing this kind of education does nothing but harm. It might satisfy some moral opinions. But satisfying moral opinions aren't it's, that's not a public health outcome. Right. That's not That's not encouraging human rights. So, so I personally loved having sex, comprehensive sex education, I don't know that I got it as well as I could have in school. And that may have prevented me from, say, being in the relationship where I didn't see the red flags. And that led to the nonconceptual image sharing thing. And as I got into working in the adult industry, that's where I really found the most education. That's where I found people who are being open and honest, and safest. And I kind of realized, like, Oh, this is this is a, you know, these, these people kind of understand what, like, what we all need to go through. And we want to be clear that everyone in the industry I've met have been from every possible walk of life from like, highly religious to agnostic, and atheist, and we are all living our lives in the ways that suit us with the kindest, most caring hearts. And and yeah, so I've really found my home in the sex, sexuality, education, world. And so making sure that Manitobans have access to comprehensive sexuality education is just at the core of my being. Yeah,

Stuart Murray  51:41  
fantastic. Kate, do you have somebody who use say, Wow, this is a film producer that I really admire what they do. Mainstream doesn't really matter. Just in general, you're a professional and just so from peer to peer Is there somebody you would say, Wow, this is somebody who does really good work. I

Kate Sinclaire  51:59  
particularly enjoy working with slash Knowing ABOUT someone called shine Louise Houston, who is a this is in the adult film world. So again, 18 Plus, if you're going to look up Chinese Houston, but they run something called Pink label, which is a distribution system that my films are also available on, which is very nice, but it very much focuses on queer and gender, diverse sexualities and experiences, and also feminist creations, things like that. And they also rent a studio, where they specifically make their own porn that is just beautifully produced. And there's this thing where people think that when we were talking about feminist or ethical porn, that it has to look, you know, soft lighting, and very, kind of like a romance novel, almost. But what I really like about Chinese work is that it's well lit, it's well produced, it's all that but the narratives are not necessarily like soft and cozy, you know, it's real people doing real life experience. So that's,

Stuart Murray  53:07  
congratulations again, on what you've been able to achieve. I know there's there's still some great things in in terms of your runway and what you're going to do. And I just want to just say thank you for in your busy, busy, busy schedule. Kate Sinclair, thank you for taking some time to talk to me on on the rights of sex workers and the importance of that industry and the harm reduction part of it. And I suspect that we are going to hear a lot more from you. I think we need to hear a lot more from you. So I just want to say thank you so much for spending some time with me in this conversation. I really appreciate it. Chris, thank

Kate Sinclaire  53:41  
you so much for having me. Take care.

Matt Cundill  53:44  
Thanks for listening to Humans on Rights. A transcript of this episode is available by clicking the link in the show notes of this episode. Humans on Rights is recorded and hosted by Stuart Murray, social media marketing by Buffy Davey music by Doug Edmund. For more go to human rights hub dot ca.  

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  54:05  
Produced and distributed by the Sound Off Media Company