Ribbon Skirts: From Controversy to Celebration

Stuart Murray  0:00  
This podcast was recorded on the ancestral lands on Treaty One Territory, their traditional territory of the Anishinaabe, Cree, Oji-Cree, Dakota and the Dene peoples and on the homeland of the Métis nation.

Amanda Logan (Voiceover)  0:19  
This is Humans On Rights, a podcast advocating for the education of human rights. Here's your host, Stuart Murray.

Stuart Murray  0:29  
As a 11 year old Isabella Kulak picked out her outfit for Tuesday school, she knew her choice of a traditional ribbon skirt would be applauded instead of belittled. That's because her school campsite comprehensive Institute of school in Saskatchewan had declared January 4 as ribbon skirt day. To quote Kulak she said it's very exciting. I'm going to wear the one I made. It was super complicated, but it was fun, she said to CBCs Morning Edition. Now Kulak drew international attention last year after she wore a traditional ribbon skirt to a school formal event. At the time Kulak 10 years old, came home upset after an educational assistant shamed her for wearing the skirt saying it didn't match her shirt and it wasn't dressy enough for formal day. The assistant told Isabella she should have worn a storebought outfit similar to another students. Now ribbon skirts are traditionally worn for Indigenous ceremonies by women and girls. But the garments are also used to show support for causes such as missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls. Not long after this most upsetting event happened a Manitoba Senator Mary Jane McCallum presented a bill to Canada and that bill created an Act of Parliament that identified January the fourth as national ribbon skirt day and to talk about national ribbon skirt date from her perspective, because she is someone who's involved in this I learned about Laura Brandon through a good friend of mine, Clayton Sandy, I think you know Clayton's daughter, Laura. But I wanted to just say with that introduction, welcome to Humans On Rights, Laura.

Laura Brandon  2:16  
Thank you for having me.

Stuart Murray  2:17  
So Laura, let's talk a little bit about from your perspective, for anybody listening, what is the history of the ribbon skirt?

Laura Brandon  2:27  
I wanted to introduce myself first of all in my language, she baggy she goop Dishnet cause Mackinac nindo them were ways to get going and doing de Nina Shinobi. So I just said my spirit name in my Anishinaabe language. I'm from the Turtle Clan, and I am from Weweseka, First Nation, and it is in treaty for territory. 

Stuart Murray  2:53  
Okay, thank you, Laura. 

Laura Brandon  2:54  
So what I'll share about the history of the ribbon skirt, to my knowledge is based on what I've been taught. And I just want to make it known that this is from my perspective, and I don't speak for all nations or anyone but myself and I'm just sharing my perspective. 

Stuart Murray  3:17  
For sure and Laura, just want to just pause there for a second because we had this conversation before you agreed to have the conversation with me to say that this is your personal viewpoint. This is you know what you've learned what you want to share that you're not here to represent anybody else other than yourself, Laura Brandon. So I appreciate you making that very, very clear. Thank you. 

Laura Brandon  3:37  
Yes, thank you. So I was first introduced to the ribbon skirt a little later in my childhood when I was about 10 years old when I lived with my grandmother. And my grandmother attended a lot of ceremonies and when I was with her, she took me along to ceremonies and that's where I first learned of women wearing ribbon skirts. The one that I wore, was made specifically for me, that had to do with being gifted that in a ceremony through what we would call a medicine man or somebody that conduct ceremonies and he had a vision, what my dress was to look like and what colors it was to be made with and those signified my personal colors. So the ribbon skirt that I was to wear was for ceremonies only and it was a specific color of material and color of ribbons to wear while I attended ceremonies. And then throughout my life I learned more about ribbon skirts, and how I'm mainly for ceremony. That's how ribbon skirts were chosen the style, but as I got older, there was more women wearing ribbons, skirts And fast forward to today. It's more accepted to wear ribbon skirts and not just for ceremony like, it could be for everyday wear, for fashion, for different reasons like that, through university and doing research, like I did take Native studies as one of my majors for my Bachelor of Arts. So in research, I've seen numerous photographs, in the early 1900s, of women wearing ribbon skirts. Of course, you didn't see the colors because there are black and white photographs, but you could tell that they had ribbons on them. So some of the teachings that I received is that for women, it's significant for women to wear ribbon skirts, because it connects the women to the earth. It's like an extension of the earth and it's just a part of the role of being a woman. And there's additional teachings to that, that if people wanted to learn that they would have to pass tobacco for to receive those, it's more intimate, like between yourself and an elder.

Stuart Murray  6:17  
Okay, can I just ask just a couple of things on that, Laura, thanks for kind of giving that that sense of history from your perspective and kind of how you became you know, you know, living with your grandmother and going to ceremony. I had done some research and again, you know, please, if this is inaccurate, I'm happy to learn that this is not necessarily the case. But there was a piece that I did some research on the talked about, that sometimes a ribbon skirt, representing a symbol of womanhood, that had something to do with when women started to menstruate. Is there any truth in that? Or is that maybe it's a very specific or a very personal thing versus, you know, from your perspective?

Laura Brandon  6:58  
From my perspective, I think it would be an open answer, where it would depend on the differences between communities, between language groups, and even within families, within communities. There's such a high population, and there's so much influence from all areas that a lot of the teachings, they vary so much. So I can't really say that that's true, it might be true for that particular person that was speaking about it. For me, the young girls in our family that are toddlers, as soon as they're walking, they would wear ribbon skirts to like a name giving ceremony to different cultural events in the community as sundance, pow wow. So I think it just depends on what the teachings are for that person or that family.

Stuart Murray  8:00  
Okay, fair enough. So if we talk about your experience, Laura, when you received or I don't know if the right word is gifted, I mean, there's obviously a presentation that goes where you receive your your ribbon skirt, is it explained to you what the colors mean, so that you get an understanding of what the history is, or what the teachings are that go with each particular color? 

Laura Brandon  8:23  
Well, I can share my experience from my memory, I believe I was 11 years old and that's when I first received my name, my spirit name, it's called visa when in our language, and that's like, where you're given a name from a spiritual point of view, rather than your English name. And it's in our language. So while I was given that name, I was also given my colors, and a clan and those are some of the things that are specific to our culture in this community. The colors that I was to use on my ribbon skirt, represented the colors that I was to use in a sundance. So in a sundance, we have flags that we use to help offer prayer. So those two colors are what I was to use in the sundance, but also to put on my repinned skirt while I was dancing. So I didn't get unfortunately, the exact meaning of the colors. I think that the elder or knowledge keeper or medicine man would have received that direction from his his own personal vision, or however they they do that. 

Stuart Murray  9:50  
Okay, and can I just explore a little bit with you, Laura. Again, again, this is just to repeat this is your personal experience. But is it normal or again is there customs? Sorry if I'm not getting the right word there, but does it have to be a male? Or could it be a female who has a vision to decide what the ribbon skirt or the colors might be? Is there some tradition that goes along with that? 

Laura Brandon  10:14  
Just like the answer that I gave previously, like, I don't like to speak on behalf of anyone but myself, that vary so much, my grandmother. Later in her life, she was gifted with the ability to give names. And so then she also gave colors. So I would at the time, when I received my name, there just happened to be man in the community that gave names and colors. So I think it just depends on timing, and who's gifted with that in the community or in the family. It could even be more personal where somebody dreams of their own ribbon skirt, they might dream of themselves wearing a skirt and it being a certain color. So they decide to make it and it's significant to them.

Stuart Murray  11:10  
In your experience. I think you indicated you had two colors. 

Laura Brandon  11:14  
Yes. 

Stuart Murray  11:15  
And have you seen? Are you aware of other ribbon skirts that might have more than two or just one? Or is there a level that has a significance that you've witnessed, I'm just curious to see if there's-

Laura Brandon  11:28  
There's a big variety in ribbons skirts today. I've seen people wear a ribbon skirt with just one ribbon and then I've seen ribbon skirts being made, that are completely made a ribbon. So there might be 20 or more ribbons on them and that depends on if they're spiritual significance, or preference or personal preference for color. Or it might mean something different to that individual and unless somebody shares that with me, or unless something really stands out, like I might ask or give a compliment and ask that person about their ribbon skirt and then they went explain that.

Stuart Murray  12:10  
Okay, yeah. Interesting. And is there, is there such a thing as the kind of material that the actual skirt before the ribbons get put on it? Is there something again, from a tradition there, Laura, that gets used? Or is it just again, each one is so individual.

Laura Brandon  12:26  
I think each one is so individual as well, for mine, the person that gave me the colors and told me how my skirt was supposed to look said that it should be on black cloth with white flowers, little small white flowers on it. So some could be just like a solid color. Some could have floral, like I know, a lot of Anishinaabe, a lot of Anishinaabe florals. So it would depend on the person. 

Stuart Murray  12:59  
And how often I mean, are you fairly active with you're wearing your ribbon skirt? How do you use it in sort of your your daily life or ceremonial life?

Laura Brandon  13:09  
I personally wear ribbon skirts about three times a week to work. And I make ribbons skirts, I don't wear the same one that I talked about. Often I usually save that one for ceremony and then I have I make some just based on my color preference. What I like the style I like and I wear them. Yeah, about three times a week two work like today, I was just set a Christmas, a staff Christmas party for our community. So I chose to wear a ribbon skirt just to represent that I'm proud of my culture.

Stuart Murray  13:48  
So you made this ribbon skirt that you wore. 

Laura Brandon  13:51  
Yes. 

Stuart Murray  13:52  
And would you have more than two colors on there? Or can you be creative on your own because this is something that is not necessary, about sort of ceremony per se, but it's more sort of your personal preference if I can use those terms?

Laura Brandon  14:06  
Yes. So the ribbon skirt I'm wearing today has eight ribbons, and then I coordinate the colors with the fabric colors. So it's more like a stylish fashion preference. 

Stuart Murray  14:21  
And it would you I mean, for example, you know, in a conversation say for example, you know, I was at an event and I saw you and somebody said oh you know because we're just doing this conversation over Zoom. So we haven't met in person, but if you were I got introduced you and I said Hey Laura, you and I chatted on on on my Humans On Rights podcast. I see you're wearing a ribbon skirt. Can you explain the meaning or what the colors that you have on? Is that an appropriate conversation for somebody to ask when they're just meeting somebody like you and I might meet?

Laura Brandon  14:54  
I believe so. If somebody asked me that I wouldn't be offended. It would spark up a conversation. Usually, when I approached someone and I'm interested in in something that they're wearing, that's cultural, I would probably compliment them first. Yeah. 

Stuart Murray  15:13  
Okay. And is there a certain length that the skirt should be? Is it sort of an understood that it should be a certain length?

Laura Brandon  15:21  
Yes. I don't like to tell anybody or like dictate to people what they should do. But I know some expectations are out there and I've heard them all. The older generation, they prefer people to wear longer skirts to cover their ankles. 

Stuart Murray  15:41  
And let me interrupt you for one sec there, Laura. I'm assuming that is for ceremony, not just- 

Laura Brandon  15:46  
 Yes.

Stuart Murray  15:46  
 Okay. For ceremony okay. Fair enough.

Laura Brandon  15:48  
Yes, first ceremony for sure you would wear a longer skirt. Well, I would anyway, just out of respect for myself and the people in attendance. But I know that some people carry over their ceremony life into their everyday life, where that they would just expect that, and they would guide younger women, and maybe teach them that this is an expectation that you wear a longer skirt. But now that we're in a different time, and there's more people wearing ribbon skirts, and it's more fashionable, and more accepted. There's different lengths of skirts that are out there. Normally, people would say like, below the knee. But now there's like many ribbons skirts, really. So yeah, yeah. So it's really evolved the ribbon skirts. 

Stuart Murray  16:41  
Yeah. You know, Laura, one of the things that fascinates me as I'm trying to sort of learn about this and do a bit of research on it, is the notion that, you know, there's so much tradition that goes along with a young girl being presented a traditional ribbon skirt, which as you say, Now, today, it's a bit more fashionable. Do you make ribbon skirts that would be for sale. And the reason I'm asking you that is that if there's a a website that you might ask people to go to, and just a reminder that when I, all my podcasts come with episode notes, and so if there's some something where you would like people to go and look and see the work that you do, do, I'm happy to sort of put that on there. But just to come back to my question, do you make ribbon skirts for just generally, for people in the public who are interested in purchasing them?

Laura Brandon  17:33  
Yes. So one of the other things that I do aside from my daily employment, is I do beadwork. And I saw, so I do make ribbon skirts for sale. I do post them on my personal Facebook page. I just do it in my spare time as something to help women be proud of their culture, proud of wearing ribbon skirts and promoting the culture and I just do them when I can. And I post them on my personal Facebook page. I don't have a website, and I just do them as to express my creativity as an artist. 

Stuart Murray  18:19  
Okay, and are you comfortable giving your Facebook page publicly? Or if you would like it to be you don't have to. 

Laura Brandon  18:26  
Yeah, so my Facebook page is just my my name my English name, which is Laura. Brandon. 

Stuart Murray  18:32  
Spelled L, a, u, r, a, b, r, a, n, d, o, n. Laura Brandon. Yeah. And then just for a quick second there, because I think it's always fascinating. You introduced yourself in your traditional name. This is your English name, I guess if I could use that. Do you use your traditional name a lot in ceremony or just in different ways or I mean, I know you're obviously you know, very proud of your your culture. Is that something that you feel strongly about using your traditional name?

Laura Brandon  19:03  
Yes. So usually, when I'm in meetings, I am a public figure in my community. So I do some public speaking, I attend meetings in different parts of Canada and I make a point to introduce myself in my language, first of all, just because I'm still learning my language. I'm the first generation of four generations of women. Like I'm the first one that hasn't went to residential school. So there's three women in my matrilineal line that went to residential school, my mother, my grandmother, and my great grandmother, and they all are fluent, or were fluent in our language. And so I'm the generation that the language didn't get passed down to it wasn't my first language. So, introducing myself in my language it's a way of me reclaiming that. So that's why I make a habit of doing that.

Stuart Murray  20:10  
So just remind me one more time. What is your name in your traditional language?

Laura Brandon  20:15  
My name the way you say it is she bargains you cook. 

Stuart Murray  20:19  
She Bhaiji she cook 

Laura Brandon  20:21  
Hsipaw geezer cook 

Stuart Murray  20:23  
Sheba? De GZ. 

Laura Brandon  20:26  
I'll put in syllables. Shiva, Shiva. Easy, easy. cook, cook.

Stuart Murray  20:35  
She baggies eco Kuba easy cook. Yeah. Okay. And when you introduce yourself that wait, would you prefer I mean, it's just it took me a long time here just to sort of get it right and you're very patient with me. So thank you so much. But would you prefer people referred you that or are you okay, when people call you, Laura?

Laura Brandon  20:54  
Yeah, no, I'm okay. When people call me, Laura, I know what it would be more difficult to pronounce. And it's more for me, and for me, reclaiming my language, but also to remind people, that that's who I am initially, is an Anishinaabe quail, like an Ojibwe woman.

Stuart Murray  21:16  
And you know, when you talk about the ribbon skirt, that how now it is becoming a little bit more sort of popular. I mean, are you comfortable, if non Indigenous women wear a ribbon skirt, Laura?

Laura Brandon  21:29  
I am comfortable with it as long as credit is given where credit is due, I know that there is a lot of ribbon skirts that are being sold, and then bought by non Indigenous people. But there's a fine line between cultural appropriation. So we really need to be careful about that. There are many people that are non Indigenous that I have met, that have very high respect for our culture. There's there's non Indigenous women that I've made, ribbons, skirts for that use them when they go to ceremonies, or join their indigenous friends at different events, out of respect for them and learning about their culture. So I think it's it's dependent on on the respect in the appreciation level.

Stuart Murray  22:26  
You know, when I said in my introduction, that ribbon skirts are traditionally worn for Indigenous ceremonies by women and girls, but the garments are also used to show support for causes such as missing and murdered indigenous women and girls. From your perspective, again, this is your your viewpoint. Do you agree with that statement? And if you do, can you maybe share how that works?

Laura Brandon  22:49  
I would agree with that statement that that is something that individuals prefer to do to support to show support. It's not something that I do. I show support in different ways and it's more like about being involved for me. But I know that that's the comfort level of some people is to wear ribbon skirts like to wear an orange ribbon skirt for orange shirt day, Red Ribbon skirt for missing and murdered indigenous women. And that's a highly visible thing to do to show support. So I think that it is common to do that and then I just wanted to mention, in talking about supports for Indigenous community issues is for the LGBTQ community, that it's not limited to just women, that there's people of different genders that choose to wear skirts, because they identify with it.

Stuart Murray  23:54  
Yeah, interesting. And so you mentioned Laura about for orange shirt day as it's being called, I guess there for the National truth and reconciliation, and red, which is very much the you know, the red dress the missing and murdered indigenous women and girls. Can I just ask on the ribbon skirt, is the background in the case of orange shirt day, is the background orange? Or are the ribbons orange on another color?

Laura Brandon  24:21  
I think it depends on who makes it and what it signifies for them. I've seen ribbon skirts that are on Orange fabric and with orange ribbons. I've seen just orange ribbons or orange fabric with different colored ribbons. So it's it varies quite a bit. 

Stuart Murray  24:40  
Okay. Yeah. And I think you know, that is always one of the things and I again, I come back to, I think why you said at the very beginning when we were chatting, just saying look, I can share my personal experience. I'm not here to speak on behalf of anybody else other than myself, which I respect and I appreciate I think it's it's fantastic. You're obviously an Artists in your creative. Just talk a little bit about your background, your education, where you went to school and some of the things you studied and what you got interested as in as a as a young woman.

Laura Brandon  25:11  
So my educational background, I did go to college in Brandon, Manitoba, where I took a Aboriginal community development diploma. And I have an undergrad degree, a Bachelor of Arts degree in Native studies and archaeology. I also have an after degree in education. So I'm a certified teacher and right now, I'm employed through my first nation as a member of council. I'm an elected representative of- 

Stuart Murray  25:48  
Of Council? 

Laura Brandon  25:49  
Yes. 

Stuart Murray  25:49  
Okay. 

Laura Brandon  25:50  
And a couple of things that I do in addition to that, is very community involved, I volunteer a lot. But in my home life, I do a lot of beadwork and sewing, spend a lot of time outside medicine, picking, going to ceremonies, and promoting our language and our culture. 

Stuart Murray  26:14  
You know, it's great to, you know, really have an opportunity to explore a conversation with somebody who's very passionate about their their culture, their tradition, and particularly through colonization, how you're trying to sort of come at it to ensure that it becomes back more into the mainstream. And you know, a lot of these these issues are done on a one on one basis, like the way you personally are exploring it and expressing it, Laura, so appreciate, appreciate that. Would you say that the more understanding that people may have with the the history and the meaning of a ribbon skirt, would that advance anything with truth and reconciliation, in your opinion?

Laura Brandon  26:54  
I believe so I believe that we're in a better place today than we were even five years ago. I think it's reciprocal, the reconciliation work, and the understanding and sharing of our culture. Like, it just goes back and forth. And the more it goes back and forth, I think the more it advances, from what I've seen, throughout my time, being involved with my culture and promoting it, I wanted to share those about the young girl choosing to wear a ribbon skirt for formal date. For my first degree, I graduated in 2012. And that at that time, at my university graduation, I chose to wear my ceremonial ribbon skirt and I was the only one wearing a ribbon skirt in the entire university graduation class. And I really stood out and people, I had a lot of people looking at me. So I know how it feels to gather up the courage to even do that. And for this young girl that decided that she wanted, she was proud enough to wear that ribbon skirt that day and parallel to my graduation, it's expected to wear Western influenced fashion to a formal event. So the people I was graduating with, were wearing dresses that you would wear to graduation, but I chose to wear a ribbon skirt. And 12 years ago, it was very rare for anyone to do that. And now it's more common. And it's really beautiful. And I think every time somebody wears a ribbon skirt in public, It just strengthens that pride and culture for women in the Indigenous community. 

Stuart Murray  28:56  
When you wore your ribbon skirt, Laura, were you I mean, other than as you say you stood out, did anybody indicate to you, you know, you shouldn't have worn this or you shouldn't have this or I just go back to this what happened to this young girl and in campsite. Did you have any of those conversations?

Laura Brandon  29:12  
No, I didn't have any con any of those conversations. But I had a lot of looks and I could sense energy but I was a woman already like I wasn't a little girl. So I could I could stand in what I believed. 

Stuart Murray  29:28  
And it's interesting, as you say, when you're younger, I mean somebody who's 10 At that time, this young girl was 10 you're pretty influenced by an adult sort of telling you something versus as you say, when you're as you are a woman, somebody's telling you, you're gonna stand your ground because you have, you know, much more understanding of what it is you're trying to represent, even if they don't agree, you know, as opposed to an adult teacher or an assistant teacher, I guess in this case.

Laura Brandon  29:54  
Yes and I know that when I do wear ribbon skirts in public, some people are a little confused, I do get a lot of compliments, but even in my own community, sometimes I'll get a comment or a question. As in, oh, where are you going? Or which ceremony are you going to? And then I just have to say, oh, I'm just wearing it for myself for today, because I feel like wearing one.

Stuart Murray  30:21  
Yeah, no, I mean, I think, you know, as they become more evident, but you know, what's interesting is, if somebody asks you that question, they're trying to learn, right? They're trying to get a sense of what's happening. So as long as everything is done with a level of respect, then you're learning and you're having a conversation, which I think is helpful and hopeful about the topic. So, Laura, Brandon, thank you so much for the conversation, I just want you to take a moment. And what I'm going to ask you to think about for a second is that January the fourth has been through an Act of Parliament in Canada has been deemed to be National Ribbons Skirt Day. If you were to give one message of hope that you would like people who are listening to this podcast to think about or take action on or do something on National Ribbons Skirt Day January 4, what would you like that to be?

Laura Brandon  31:15  
I would suggest for people to wear our ribbons skirt, if they feel comfortable with it, encourage women in their family to wear them if they're comfortable with it. And if you see somebody wearing a ribbon skirt, offer a compliment or question to learn about it. But for me, I don't expect that from anyone if they don't want to wear a ribbon skirt, I wouldn't. I wouldn't just say everybody wear a ribbon skirt, it's up to that person's comfort level and what they believe in. So if anything, I would just encourage people to be open minded, to be open minded and respectful.

Stuart Murray  32:01  
I want to add I think it's a beautiful way to end the conversation, Laura because I think to be open minded, respectful, on a lot of things would help us in this world. But I asked you about National Ribbons Skirt Day and that's what you're talking about. So thank you for your enlightenment. Thank you for your openness. Thank you for being very candid about your personal journey with respect to the questions I've been asking about a ribbon skirt and I appreciate you taking some time to share your thoughts with me today on this on this subject, Laura.

Laura Brandon  32:35  
Thank you so much and thank you for giving a platform for people to learn about the ribbon skirt and the significance of it. Me guatch. 

Stuart Murray  32:44  
Okay, thank you.

Matt Cundill  32:47  
Thanks for listening to Humans On Rights. A transcript of this episode is available by clicking the link in the show notes of this episode. Humans On Rights is recorded and hosted by Stuart Murray. Social media marketing by Buffy Davey. Music by Doug Edmund. For more go to humanrightshub.ca. 

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  33:08  
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