How Holidays Shape and Define Culture

Stuart Murray  0:00  
This podcast was recorded on the ancestral lands on Treaty One Territory, their traditional territory of the Anishinaabe, Cree, Oji-Cree, Dakota and the Dene peoples and on the homeland of the Métis nation.

Amanda Logan (Voiceover)  0:19  
This is Humans On Rights, a podcast advocating for the education of human rights. Here's your host, Stuart Murray.

Stuart Murray  0:30  
Ever wondered why we celebrate holidays and what they mean to our culture? We're about to delve into the significance of these special days. Holidays serve as a reflection of society shared values, historical milestones, and unique traditions. They're not just days off work or school, they offer key insights into cultural identities, showcasing how diverse and how colorful the world is. But are we in Winnipeg, in Manitoba, reflecting just how diverse and therefore inclusive our holidays are? My guest has some very definite views on this question. Dr. Rehman Abdulrehman is a clinical and consulting psychologist, who applies his skills in creating sustainable change to leadership, diversity, equity and inclusion. He has a broad and international portfolio of clients, including Google, YouTube, MasterCard Foundation, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, and was a member of the Conference Board of Canada. He hosts his own podcast on the difficult conversations of racism, and his podcast is called Different People. He is also, and we're gonna get into this later, an author of a new book in press titled Developing Anti-Racist Cultural Competence, due out in early 2024. So let's jump right into the conversation.  Dr. Abdulrehman, you believe that we should have two more stat holidays a year. Why is that? 

Dr. Rehman Abdulrehman  2:04  
Actually I think we need about eight more. So that's quite a bit more.

Stuart Murray  2:09  
Let's start with two and we'll work our way up.

Dr. Rehman Abdulrehman  2:11  
Yeah, it's really important that we certainly advocate to the world and we showcase ourselves as a multicultural country. And I think culture is critically important in reflecting the values and the beliefs of our society. But also, I think, the rights and freedoms of people are reflected in our culture as well, too. So as much as we say that we are a multicultural society, I would argue that we are not, I would say that we are a multi ethnic society. And I think diversity has always been existent in any aspect of society. So that's not something to shoot for. We've always had that. But if we take a look at our culture, and I think our holidays reflect that culture, we see we're really just a unique cultural society. You know, the holidays don't reflect the communities that make up this really rich and wonderful country. They reflect the cultures and the holidays of a singular people. And there's a push and pressure to simply accept those holidays.

Stuart Murray  3:07  
And you know, when we talk about those holidays, I think in Manitoba, it's fair to say that- and I think we used to have eight, I think we've got nine now. This- the new government has indicated that September 30th is going to be orange shirt day, or more appropriately called, I believe, the National Day of Truth and Reconciliation. What got you thinking that we should go down this path of ensuring that there is inclusivity in recognizing the diverse culture that we have around these issues around holidays?

Dr. Rehman Abdulrehman  3:40  
It's my experience, the experience of my child, the experience of my parents, like- people of color, people who come from cultural communities who don't belong to the so-to-speak Eurocentric white culture, we tend to just accept that we- this is what we- we have to do. And I did a TEDx talk about this, my little boy wasn't even three years old when he told me, he said, Papa, I don't even want to be- I don't want to be Muslim anymore. And at that age, he really doesn't know what that means. But when I asked him why, he said to me that Paw Patrol doesn't celebrate Christmas. And so there wasn't even anything negative said about him. And I think we need to be thoughtful about- racism is not just the active stances of aggression, but the passive stances of aggression against people. And you can see the simple lack of representation is a form of aggression. It does have an impact on the mental health and well being of people of color. That's been documented in research. And so I think it's critical that when we move towards including holidays, and having our culture be truly multicultural, not only are we improving the health and lives of people of color, but the research shows when we're not inclusive, we are actively breeding racism, because it artificially inflates the sense of self worth as an ethnicity and as a culture of white people. So really the answer to resolve racism, to promote greater understanding within Canadian communities, is to actually move towards celebrating everything to shift that culture. And so as a psychologist with lived and professional experience, that's what's led me to this conclusion.

Stuart Murray  5:19  
Yeah, no, fascinating and, you know, just share with anybody that's listening, of course, that off air, you talked about the fact that you had gone to a British school, and you just mentioned about your lived experience. Tell us a bit about your lived experience that has impacted you to bring forward this suggestion, with respect to recognizing through holidays, you know, the inclusiveness that we need to have within our culture that has not been there in the past. I mean, you've experienced it, share what you've experienced in your time as growing into being the professional that you are.

Dr. Rehman Abdulrehman  5:53  
My family is a Zanzibari family. I was born in Dar Salam on the mainland, I went to British schools growing up when I was a child over there. And as a result of that, I mean, even my name is colonized. Right? My name is actually Abdulrehman, my family named me Abdulrehman, after my great grandfather, the family name, but it was my grandfather, my great grandfather, who decided was too old fashioned. And you know, having internalized those colonial beliefs shortened it to Rehman, which was then translated to Raymond, and so even getting around that, you know, that name, like I made for my entire life, I mean, anybody who knows me well, and as close to me, calls me Abdulrehman, because that is my name. And then professionally, I mean, and you know, colloquially, it's Rehman, and that's not even the accuracy of it. So, you know, to have that- that simple thing, like a name, follow you around for the your entire life, I mean, can really be quite daunting. Further to that, I mean- and I often say was an immigrant, I'm not currently an immigrant. And I think we need to think about language like that. And growing up in this colonized culture of Tanzania, you certainly start to internalize this view, that white is better, white is more educated, white is more civilized. And you'll also see a lot of parallels between a lot of what the indigenous community talks about, and their experiences with colonialism, and my own experiences with that. But that said, not just me, I would say, any person of color, at some point in time you wake up. At some point in time, you recognize that you've been kind of being fed a lot of information that ultimately goes against who you are as a person, and even just promoting a sense of worth as a person. I'll read you a quote by James Baldwin, that I think is very reflective of this, where he says, it took me many years of vomiting up all the filth that I've been taught about myself, and half believed, before I was able to walk on the earth as though I had a right to be here. And I think that reflects the experiences of many people of color, I think there's a lot of implicit forms of racism. You know, we tend to think of racism as these very overt archaic senses of burning crosses of people- on people's lawns. And though people of color, including myself, experience that on a daily basis, I say the bigger problem is the subversive psychological nature of racism. That's the burning cross in our mind. And having an absence of representation really establishes the hierarchy and value of culture that we place. And that's why I say, eight holidays. In reviewing the calendar, there are eight additional holidays that- that if we included, would actually umbrella many groups and include us- allow us to all be included. And I think that's- that's the way to go to start to unravel a lot of the colonialism and racism that I experienced personally, but I think many people of color, too.

Yeah, so, Dr. Abdulrehman, do you see similarities between Tanzania and Canada?

Yes, and no. It's interesting. Like I said, I come from a colonized culture, and so many people whose families have come from cultures that were colonized, you'll see this similarity. And so sometimes you think that you leave one place, you come to another and you expect- we advertise the sense of human rights. And for me, it was such a long time ago that Canada is my home, I've lived here pretty much my whole darn life. But it's not that different, in some ways, in terms of colonization. In some ways, it is different, though. In terms of the holidays, for example, Tanzania is a multicultural country. And there, all these holidays are celebrated. Equally as well. Like right down to the days off. I mean, one of the big criticisms, amongst other hate mail that I tend to get when I advocate for this, is, you know, go back to your country. You know what other countries do this? Well, yes, they do. If you go to the Middle East right now, you'll see Christmas trees up everywhere, not because the dominant culture there really celebrates Christmas, but to make those from a minority culture feel welcome and at home. So I think in some ways, yes. And in many ways, no.

Stuart Murray  10:08  
No, fair question, I just- When, you know, when you came from that background, and you talk about your lived experience, and, you know, all the research that I've read about you, some of the articles, the interviews you've done, you know, how you are advocating so strongly to, you know, really reflect the diverse culture we have through the use of- you know, I- sometimes I just wondered what your thought is when people have a conversation, and they say, Well, you know, I talked to or I listened to, you know, Dr. Abdulrehman and he basically thinks there should be eight more holidays. But he thinks that holidays are the ways for us to become more diverse and more understanding of each other. How would you answer that for people to say, you know, how does that work? In your mind? How do you think that works? 

Dr. Rehman Abdulrehman  10:51  
That's a really good question. We have to remember that in order to be able to- and I come at this approach psychologically, right? So in order for us to be able to create change, like if somebody were to come and see me for therapy, people are coming in with challenges or problems that they describe emotionally. I feel sad, I feel anxious, I feel, you know, whatever that might be. What we don't recognize is that our emotions, including our emotional reactions to each other, are tied to our belief systems, and tied to our behavior. And if we can ultimately change our behavior, that alone makes a huge difference, because that will shift our thinking and ultimately change our emotions. So we have the greatest control over our thoughts and our belief systems, and our behaviors. And so psychologists who particularly work in the type of modality that I work, will work on people's thinking and their behavior and their actions. What we tend not to recognize is that sometimes our behaviors are limited by barriers, and systemic racism are barriers to our actions. So Winnipeg was dubbed the most racist city. And I'm trying to work from the seat of hope, you know, I think Winnipeg is a wonderful city. You know, it's big enough, but small enough that I think we can really advocate and create sustainable change, I think it's really wonderful that way. But the barrier here is the belief that the standard holiday is based on white culture. If we were to shift that, and we would remove that barrier, we now create a new setting, a new circumstance. So what was previously a barrier is now no longer a barrier. And people have to act upon that. So imagine we all had stat holidays, for, let's say, Diwali, the South Asian culture. And it's not that everybody needs to observe that. But all of a sudden, our economy goes up. People are spending for their friends and family, we have days off. That actually is proven to actually increase productivity. Who do people credit for that day off? The South Asian community. Let's say we have, you know, Eid off. Who do they credit for that? They credit the Muslim community. And so the process of changing our circumstances, changes our behavior. And that behavior ultimately shifts our thinking, to recognize and to challenge one of the core beliefs that my own research confirms to be true, that white is local, and people of color are foreign. And so changing our culture is to make local, what is local, to the different Canadian communities that make up our beautiful country, are now acted upon as local, we now feel them as local. So not only do they serve to educate and inform those of us who don't belong in those communities, we now feel towards them, and give credit to those communities as being local. And so we work to ultimately remove a sense of ignorance, both intellectually, but emotionally.

Stuart Murray  13:47  
I love that, great answer. And I guess the question is, let me just sort of add a third element to that. And economically, I mean, you talk about how it has a benefit in terms of- if there's a celebration, that community's going out and they're purchasing, whatever it may be. It may be food, it may be material for co- I mean, it may be many things, it doesn't really matter, but it's- it advances the economy. Can I just pose this element to you, and that is that, you know, I'm an employer, I have a small business. You know, for me to start advocating or giving all these holidays to some of my employees may make it difficult for me to continue my business. I'm not talking about a multinational, you know, big place, I'm just talking about, you know, a smaller entrepreneurial organization who this could have an impact. But- so there may be- I guess, I just want to put the notion out there, not to argue with you, but to just say, is there another element that people approach you on? And you sort of say, ah, here's the answer to that question. 

Dr. Rehman Abdulrehman  14:43  
That's actually a very good question. And we have to remember that sometimes when we approach issues of diversity, equity and inclusion, because it's fraught with so much tension, it makes a lot of people anxious and it makes us pull away. So what are actually solutions that most of us have already applied to many other settings, we can't- you know, when we're emotional, we- we can't think critically. And I think the issue of racism, equity and inclusion, it produces such tension, I think naturally, because, you know, it's been fraught with so much grief that it makes people pull away. And we can't use our natural good critical thinking skills. I've done this conversation with, you know, our Chamber of Commerce, our Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce. And you know, the president there has like, really put on his thinking hat as like, there's ways around this. And so I think as we- if we come together as a community, there are ways around this. In my mind, we've already done this for small businesses, even when it comes to Christmas. Already, we have people who've chosen to work through Christmas, because some small businesses still run through Christmas. I mean, it's not that- even though it's a stat holiday, it's not that every small business is actually acknowledging that piece, you know, some will open for shorter hours. And you know, some people are working during that, some people are not, you know, with smaller businesses, we trade off. And I think, for smaller businesses, we can do exactly what we're doing for Christmas. The issue of a stat holiday is really one about, you know, leadership leading by example. And when government or larger organizations set this up, you know, there's still going to be people who are not celebrating the holiday, who are ready to work on those days. And they can, and they will, but setting that day really creates a very quick shift in culture. And, you know, we've done this already before. And I always think about the issue of addressing equity and inclusion as a public health issue, because it does impact the mental health of a large portion of Canadians. Think about COVID. We recognized that this epidemic was impacting the health of Canadians everywhere, and we needed to move fast. Now I have my own criticisms in terms of how we approached the mental health aspect. But when it came to the physical health aspect, there was no arguing, we all shifted the circumstance, or be- the circumstance, the rules and restrictions, all shifted our behavior so quickly, that it changed our belief system, and our emotions towards even the people who are arguing and protesting for this. You know, sometimes you'd see those people wearing masks, you know, at those protests. And it goes to show that there was- there was that shift. Anytime we work to create big shifts like this, that are meant to improve the well being of all of us, we're always going to have some people that are not 100%, happy. But we notice that even when we do that, they come along. We can't work to make everybody happy. But we have to work to make the most of us happy. And addressing issues of inclusion and holidays really does serve all of us, regardless of whether some people perceive it that way or not.

Stuart Murray  17:45  
Let me explore this conversation with you for a moment, because I support and agree with everything you said. But you know, in our society, you know, you can talk about social media, you can talk about whatever the reason may be, that the minority typically has a bigger megaphone on, you know, sort of shouting out their message, whatever it may be than the majority of people. And you know, when you talk about change, I think it's one of the things that is most difficult for people is to understand that, you know, those in a position of entitlement, when change comes up, it's like, what do I have to give up? You know, I'm gonna have to give something up in order for somebody else to have something. And I think that we need to have a discussion to talk about, it's not about giving anything up. It's about embracing the difference that allows us to, again, if we can, embrace, as you said, to quote you, this- this beautiful country that we live in. But change for some is a very difficult process to go through. And I would just love to get your thoughts on, as you have moved in your own mind, in your conversation, to looking at the use of holidays as a way to recognize and bring us closer together through the- through the diverse country that we live in, who has to be involved in that conversation?

Dr. Rehman Abdulrehman  19:09  
Well, I think leaders need to be involved in that conversation. You know, one of the big questions people ask me is like, Do you think there's change? I think for the everyday citizen, we see good change. You know, we have these personal relationships with different people. And we begin to understand, and we see that. The dilemma ultimately is leadership. And you see leadership, in some ways, being very afraid of losing votes. And- and that's a very dangerous thing. You know, and I think a true leader would do the right thing versus you know, kowtow-ing the minority, with that loud vocal voice who's just going to complain about things. But I come at this from a psychological perspective. I'm not coming at this from a simple advocacy position. I'm coming at it from the process of the ability to make change. People come and see people like me, professionals like me, with issues they often feel are largely unchangeable. Things that they might see as tied to their well- to their entire- the entirety of their being. Depression, obsessive compulsive disorder, post traumatic stress disorder. I work with police officers on a regular basis who have some of the most severe trauma you will ever see. In a matter of weeks, they are better. If we can elicit the same models of change, which is really what I'm modeling a lot of this after, in a way that leadership would support, and value, and take time to understand, and take professional advice and guidance on how to improve their own city, their own province, their own country. I think we make really amazing change. It is very, very possible.

Stuart Murray  20:48  
Yeah. As I listened to you, you know, part of positioning what it is you're talking about- It's really allowing the conversation that you just had here, and that narrative that you put out, to talk about the well being, the mental health, the opportunity of- of, you know, celebrating, bringing people together, and bringing that narrative, and then coming to the conclusion, therefore, we should acknowledge these holidays, these religious holidays for these various communities. Versus I think one of the challenges is people hear the word holiday, and they start to go down a whole different rabbit hole of what that can and can't mean. If you're an employer, does it mean I have to get more people with paid time off? How am I going to- you know, there's that way of how do we have this conversation so that people don't sort of jump the alphabet to a conclusion before the conversation's even beginning to sort of take place?

Dr. Rehman Abdulrehman  21:40  
100%. You see, these conversations are, are good when we are working towards the purpose of positive change. They're not helpful when we're just there to put on the brakes. We don't need any any doubters. We need people who are hopeful about change. And then those conversations actually help. We get involved the people that are necessary, the Chambers of Commerce, you know, the government, and we start to work through that. And sometimes it's a stepped plan. You know, and I- I get the concept of a state holiday, this is not a big change. This is a very small change with a very small budget, with a very large economic footprint, we can make great things. I think the thing that scares people is really fear, including other people of color, because sometimes the politicians that I'm preaching to are other people of color. But the concept of- of white supremacy is so strong, when I say white supremacy, remember I said I'm not talking about that burning cross. But this idea that certain people's beliefs and values and opinions have more weight than those of others. If we can overcome that, we begin to recognize our intersectionality, right? We understand that we're all Canadian, like I don't know another way of being Canadian, than being a Muslim. Right? I know no other way, in my personal- I know all about Christmas. But I know no other way of being Canadian than living my lived experience. And if we were sitting on the intersecting identity, that were all working to make this country better for all of us, we now have a common shared platform. And that common shared platform is no longer a threat. It's actually one that we're working to make this country better. And that's why I'm working so hard at this. It's not because I'm trying to, you know, bring in Sharia Law, as I've been accused to do, it's because I want my country to be one that's safe for my child, for my community, for your child, your community.

Stuart Murray  23:32  
I don't want to sort of go down a negative path on the conversation at all, Dr. Abdulrehman, I just know that you mentioned earlier, you get hate mail. You know, you talk about- you don't want to bring in Sharia Law, you know, you're fighting at sometimes an uphill battle, because, you know, it's easy to dismiss a good idea. I mean, I've always sort of said, sometimes in politics, it's not about the facts, it's about the tone. And if the tone is off, or the tone is something that people really understand, they don't really care about the facts, you know, they'll jump on the tone. And I think, when you start to have the conversation that you clearly are leading and very passionate about, and have had some success at, which we must acknowledge that for sure. Which is a good thing. You get a sense that, you know, people look at an idea that you might bring in, and how bizarre is it that somebody could simply cut off the conversation and say, Well, this is a secret way for you to bring in Sharia Law. How is that possible? Like, but you know, somebody says it and somebody says, yeah, you're absolutely right. This doesn't make any sense. I'm opposed to it.

Dr. Rehman Abdulrehman  24:34  
Yeah. To me, it's not about negative. It's about being pragmatic. And the reality is that we do face a lot of racism and the reality- and my own research will confirm, you know, people tend to see Muslims and Indigenous people is most likely to challenge western values. The idea here is that we will different values and that's not true. I mean, this- and you're right, this- this idea has had a lot of weight. There's a lot of schools, there's a wonderful Principal at a school that I work with who initiated this and would put up decorations, and they called me in as a consultant. And they- every holiday was celebrated just as big as Christmas was. And the impact on the community was so profound, it was so wonderful. People were coming in from the streets to show their family members what was happening, right? And what they did to pull communities together for that one school was really profound. And the interesting thing is that I had been advocating this to our mayor at the time. That mayor gave that teacher an award or an acknowledgement, even though the idea was mine, and completely ignored me. And so sometimes it's not the tone, it's the person delivering the message. And sadly, you know, if people could get past my identity, and simply look at the idea, sometimes we can get past that. If we get past the biases that we hold, we don't hold people as threatening, then sometimes we recognize we have a far more amount in common, and I think celebrating holidays together shows how much we have in common. You know, I think that's the heart of the idea is to- is to bring people together, and learn from each other.

Stuart Murray  26:06  
Yeah. You know, when I was the inaugural president, CEO of the Canadian Museum for Human Rights, you know, one of the biggest things I learned was the conversation about going out and having lunch with the other. And you know, the term the other. And we talked about that, what does that mean and explaining it to people and again, understanding that you don't have to agree with everything that other people are saying, you have to respect it. But there may be ways that you might have a different viewpoint. And that's fine. I mean, we're all human beings. And I think we come to understand that as a conclusion, but there's so much to learn from someone who has a different viewpoint than you do. But you know, it's that old adage that they say minds are like parachutes. They work best when they're open. If they're not, that's a tough, tough conversation to have. And I look at you as a- you know, you're obviously a professional, but you are a man of color. And you're going out into a world to talk about what your beliefs are, and what your research shows. And you know, you talk about mental health, I mean, you know, the first thing I would agree with you 100% is that nothing makes a Manitoban or a Canadian feel better than a long weekend, you know, you prepare for it, you get- you know, you love it. But let me just- before we talk a little bit about your- your podcast and your book, and I also want to talk a little about WinnLove, if I could come back to that. Do you see a difference between naming something a holiday, versus a day of celebration or a day of remembrance? And my point simply is, a holiday means, hey, let's just go to the beach, whatever the day is, you're not working. So let's go to the beach. But I know that Remembrance Day is a federal stat holiday. It's not a provincial stat holiday in many places. I just, candidly, that bothers me tremendously. Because it is a very important day. It allows us a lot of freedoms that people just take for granted. But you know, the notion that when people talk about Remembrance Day, and if it happens to be on a Monday, then it's a long weekend, because it's a holiday- I guess I'm trying to just draw down the fact that sometimes when these days come along, that allow us not to go to our workplace, but allow us to do something else, should we be looking at remembering, learning? I mean, Remembrance Day is one of those, and I'd have to put out the, you know, Orange Shirt Day or the Day for Truth and Reconciliation. That should never be perceived as a day to go to the beach.

Well, I think, you know, people will do what they will with their time off. But I remember we talked about shifting the circumstance, and shifting our environment. And I think, regardless what people do with their time, our culture makes certain days, days of observance. And irregardless of what people do with their time, we are reminded at that time, you know, even if it was a five minute moment that we took to pay attention to why we had the day off. You know, even if it was conversations in the workplace, what we hear on the media, what happens in schools, even if it was all the stuff prior to that, remember that changes how we perceive those events. You know, the National Day for Truth and Reconciliation, irregardless of what people do with that day. All the build up for it all leads to education, information and mindfulness. And that's the value of- of knowing those days. And so, when we think about those eight additional stat days, some of those days will be days of observance. And some of those will be days of celebration. But the idea here is, what governs that, the idea behind it, and all the conversation around it, is really what's creating that change. It's not just about the day for the sake of the day. It's all the information that changes our mindset. 

Yeah no, good point. Appreciate that. Thank you so much. Let's talk a little bit about WinnLove, W-i-n-n-Love. Tell us a little bit about what that means, and kind of what's your background on- on WinnLove?

Dr. Rehman Abdulrehman  30:01  
So WinnLove was developed by our clinical team, and it was basically in response to, you know, people often complain about our city. And we think about civic pride and we tend to look at other people and what they can do to make our city better. And WinnLove was created based on positive psychology, tips that people would engage on themselves, change their behavior, change their mindset, to ultimately produce an emotional sense of civic pride with Winnipeg. And there's several tips there. You know, rally your team, talk to strangers, you know, that's- so to speak, talk to the other. And amongst that is celebrate everything. And that's the tip that's had the greatest kind of traction. You know, we've had High Tea Bakery pick that up and wonderfully, now actually create cookies, not by special order, but in the showcase, will exist for every holiday, so that people coming in to buy cookies- What is that? Well, that's a dreidel. Well, what does that dreidel mean? You know, now, what's with the crescent moon, and what's with the sheep? And why is there a kava cookie there? You know, so people are buying those cookies. And we- that's a model of integrating culture and information into our current, right? And so we see that happening. And that's been- that's been WinnLove. We- you know, I think one of our mutual colleagues is- has moved to adopt that whole process into their business across Canada, there's schools that have done that, and that's all comes out of that WinnLove campaign that we started. 

Stuart Murray  31:30  
Yeah, it's fantastic. And of course, the reason I spelt w-i-n-n, as opposed to just Winn, as people would see it, is Winn is short for Winnipeg, and Winnipeg Love. Tell me just what platform have you used to sort of roll out, which is I think a brilliant idea.

Dr. Rehman Abdulrehman  31:46  
Well, I mean, we- we're up on social media. WinnLove on Instagram has been primarily focused on holidays. Anytime there's a holiday, we use that as an opportunity to shout out to those communities. The media has spoken about this on a regular basis. I've approached the Human Rights Committee, both mayors, both recent mayors, to try to do this. There's been a leadership group at the University of Manitoba, who's signed a letter encouraging the mayor to move towards at least acknowledging these days more publicly. You know, the Chamber of Commerce has worked on trying to talk about this idea. So there's been some good traction. And I'm going to keep talking about it as long as I- as long as I can. Because I believe it's- I believe it's our way to move Winnipeg from what people have dubbed the most racist city, to the most inclusive city. And I would love- I would love to see that shift.

Stuart Murray  32:38  
You know, you're absolutely right, I think- I think it was Maclean's magazine that talked about Winnipeg being the most racist city in Canada. I mean, you know, that's such a bold statement, which- we do have racism here. I mean, it's a fact of life, we know that. But to be the most racist city in Canada was a little bit of a stretch. And I do think that a lot of people in the community have, to your point, Dr. Abdulrehman, acted or reacted in a very positive way, saying, you know, we know we've got challenges, not trying to put it under the- sweep it under the carpet. But we're doing stuff, we're proactive, we care, there's a community here that does care. And we're trying to sort of show how we can celebrate ourselves, celebrate everything that ultimately makes the city more diverse, more inclusive, and, frankly, one that has a welcoming feel for- for everybody.

Dr. Rehman Abdulrehman  33:27  
I mean, it's always nice to see allies. And I always encourage allies to use their strong voices to advocate. Winnipeg Love, or WinnLove, celebrate everything, I think it's something that we all need to adopt, it's free license, you know, we encourage people to just take it and run with it, make that the hashtag, it's all created, run with it. But you know, I hate to tell you that, as an experience, as a man of color, as a Muslim, it's pretty racist here. I have traveled, and, you know, we often tend to look down our noses at the United States, but I'm treated far better in many American cities than I am treated here at home. And so I am not sure that that- that statement was too far off the mark. That said, it doesn't minimize, you know, a strong community wanting to make this place better. And it doesn't minimize my efforts to try to move Winnipeg, and to be the most inclusive city in Canada. You know, we have the Canadian Museum of Human Rights here. I would love to see Winnipeg snub that title, and really be a beacon of change, and a model for what other Canadian cities should be doing.

Stuart Murray  34:38  
Well, you're starting that. You know, every idea starts maybe small, and you know, like a snowball, we can use that, you know, as a Manitoba example, it can get bigger and bigger as it goes downhill. But you know, it takes- it takes many, many voices. And in particular, I would think that for you to be having a conversation with the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce, one of the elements would be to ensure that, you know, let's just be candid, you know, you are a man of color. I'm a white man. We need more people that look like me, sitting beside you, saying, this is what we collectively as a community think is the right thing to do. And we are, I guess, sometimes, you know, you hear the word allies. And I- you know, sometimes, we're getting to the position where- do we know exactly what that means? And you know, there's performative folks out there that, you know, think that they're doing the right thing, I'm not being critical, I'm just saying that this is a huge conversation that requires a lot of learning. And you know, the fact that you are so active in making this happen, and I was thrilled that you're- delighted when you said you'd come on and have a chat with me, because I knew I'd learn something from you. And I am, and I continue to do so. And I want to just take a moment, while I have you, to talk a little bit about your podcast. Your podcast is called Different People. And talk a little bit about your podcast, anybody that's listening, and how they might jump on and listen to it.

Dr. Rehman Abdulrehman  36:08  
So the podcast initially was started by a colleague of mine, Lisa Schmidt, and I. Lisa's a white woman, you know, works in communications and had worked in media, works as a coach right now. And it was these really frank conversations that were needed. The kinds of conversations you and I are having, but also the really uncomfortable ones, that are necessary for us to grow. And season three was my favorite, though, was where- where I started to have the conversations with other professionals of color. And talking about, I would say, the conversations that are often kept secret. Like people- we think we're aware of racism, but I often say that racism is actually the best kept secret in North America. And people say, well, how is that? You know, we see George Floyd, we see what's happening in the Middle East, we see how people are reacting to Islamophobia here and antisemitism. I say, you know, it's- it's because that's just the tip of the iceberg. And many times, people who belong to marginalized communities, they have these conversations, but not publicly. It's only when we know that there's- that we're safe, that we start to have these conversations with each other, you know? And I often say to women, if there's any women listening, white women, if somebody said something sexist, you see the other women in the room, and you raise your eyebrows, right? It's not at everybody, it's the other person who knows what you're going through. Well, my goal professionally has been to take a lot of those private conversations and make them public. Because that's how I think we learn. Season three was my favorite season. It's because we got to take that stuff, and people who agreed to have those very private conversations, the ones that we have at our dinner table, and make them public so that we all learn and grow.

Stuart Murray  37:48  
Yeah, no, listen, thank you for sharing. And again, when I get to the episode shownotes, I'll make sure that I put a reference there to your podcast, so that anybody that wants to further learn and participate, they can do so. And again, I love this about you, we just met, but I can tell you that I love your approach. For those listening, one of the things- when we send out to our guests who're gonna be on the podcast, we send out a form and ask them certain questions. And Dr. Abdulrehman, when I asked you, what would you recommend books that they read, your response was your book, Developing Anti-Racist Cultural Competence. So I love the answer. Talk about the book, and I know it's coming out early in 2024, but what- what might people expect when they pick up your book?

Dr. Rehman Abdulrehman  38:33  
I mean, in my professional career, people will often approach cultural competence as an issue of learning about the other, as like we're walking through a cultural zoo, you know, and we tend to miss our own involvement in a- in a relationship with people. And so this book is ultimately about not just being culturally competent, but being anti-racist, because I think, the two go hand in hand. And I was really surprised when I got the offer to write the book, because I always said, There's no way I'm writing a book, I have no time for that. But then one of my colleagues, actually a white man, very good friend of mine, Danny Wedding, who I've worked with on the committee for international relations for psychology, he's like, Rehman, I've been watching your work, it's time that you write this book. And I'm like, I dunno. He was like, time to write the book. So I guess it was an opportunity to put a lot of things that I rant about, into print, and with some instruction, which I think was a really nice learning opportunity for me, to organize all of this into a set of instructions in some ways to help guide not just clinicians, but anybody, to develop anti-racist cultural competence. I was really proud to have the opportunity and I feel quite fortunate for that.

Stuart Murray  39:40  
Just share if you can, is it your kind of narrative? I mean, you mentioned kind of your rants and that's a fair comment. Is it your- is it your narrative, or are there some interviews? Did you bring your podcast into some of the- this book? Is it really kind of coming from your heart on how you sort of view that we need to develop an anti-racist cultural competence?

Dr. Rehman Abdulrehman  39:59  
It's just me and my wording, and I take my professional background and I combine it with examples of lived experience. I point to examples of things that we can do to improve, situations that we don't recognize might be causing more damage than harm. And I point that out. It's not a massive book, and that's what I think is an advantage to it, is that it makes it an easy read. I believe in practicality, there's a lot of practical tips and helping people understand, so that's the book.

Stuart Murray  40:26  
Excellent. So it's not on the shelves yet, is that correct?

Dr. Rehman Abdulrehman  40:29  
It's not on the shelves. It's available for pre-order, there's a link that people can go to by Hogrefe, and Hogrefe does the publishing and you can purchase that online and as soon as it's available, you'll get it in the mail.

Stuart Murray  40:41  
That's great. And what I may do, just to be accurate, I may ask you just to, you know, just shoot me a text or something with that website, so that I can put that again, in the show notes, people are listening, if they want to grab your book, which I can see why they would like to, and being in a position that you've been in with your lived experience, your professional experience, what did it feel like to sort of actually, you know, going through the- I'm not writing a book, to actually writing a book and having it finished? How did that feel? Especially on the topic that you're- you're involved in?

Dr. Rehman Abdulrehman  41:09  
Yeah, it was really relieving. It was very therapeutic. It wasn't a big book, but it was hard amidst all the other things that I was doing to find time to do it. But it was a huge relief to have done, you know, with global events, it was like, okay, well, now, they were like, well, you need to include- you know, my editor was like, you need to include a chapter on this stuff. And I was like, okay, well, that's a moving target. But, you know, let's- let's get that in there. So it was gratifying. And I think, very therapeutic. I often believe, and I think I apply this in my work, is that when we see challenge, and when we see trauma, if we don't give ourselves some sense of control to the ability to do something, and if we can't grab the corner of the page to turn it, I think we often feel more victimized and I refuse to feel victimized. You know, I look to what I can do, and it's a model I encourage other people to do, is grab the corner of the page. You don't need to grab the entire page with the palm of your hand. Grab that corner of the page, and page by page, you know, you complete the book. And it's- it's how I choose to live and what I encourage other people to do.

Stuart Murray  42:09  
I have some experience, my daughter wrote a book and, you know, you can almost write a book about what you learn about writing a book, I mean, the steps you have to go through, getting a publisher, getting all of those things done. So, you know, congratulations to you for going through that and getting something that is- is going to be available to the public. So as the- kind of the conversation goes, when you start to, you know, look towards the off ramp in the conversation, I'm going to, you know, just ask you, Dr. Abdulrehman, what do you want people to take away from our conversation? What would the most important thing be for those listening to take away from your perspective?

Dr. Rehman Abdulrehman  42:48  
That we can't get ahead individually as communities. That the stuff that impacts me will impact you. And the moment we recognize that we're interconnected, that the damage done to a single community really is the damage done to all of us... I think at that point, we recognize that we can't get ahead without advocating for all of us. And that if I can get other people to stand up, and listen and pay attention to not me, but to the people in their community, and advocate for them, I think we move towards a better place as a city.

Stuart Murray  43:22  
Dr. Rehman, or Abdulrehman, I hope I've said your name properly. I've tried to do my best and respect that.

Dr. Rehman Abdulrehman  43:30  
I appreciate that, I really do. You've done a wonderful job.

Stuart Murray  43:33  
Okay, well, thank you for that, and thank you for teaching me. It has been a delight to have a conversation with you. And I look forward to many, and I really do think that what you're doing is- is- obviously it's the right thing, and anything that of course that I can do, please count me in as somebody who understands the importance of what you're trying to do, and how we need to work together as a community to make it a success.

Dr. Rehman Abdulrehman  43:57  
I appreciate it. We'll call you on that. 

Stuart Murray  43:59  
Okay. All right. We wish you peace and happiness during this time of year. 

Dr. Rehman Abdulrehman  44:04  
Thank you so much. 

Matt Cundill  44:07  
Thanks for listening to Humans On Rights. A transcript of this episode is available by clicking the link in the show notes of this episode. Humans On Rights is recorded and hosted by Stuart Murray. Social media marketing by Buffy Davey. Music by Doug Edmund. For more, go to humanrightshub.ca. Produced and distributed by the Soundoff Media Company.